This is the ten percent happier podcast dan Harris here again, we're gonna start experimenting, these friday episodes from here on. In historically, as you may know, on fridays, we've dropped guided meditations and we're going to still do that, but we're also going to try some different formats, including some shorter episodes with guests, who might not be a fit for our traditional monday and Wednesday shows. Today, we've got my new friend gina or Sarah. She has an incredible story about what it's like to live with. An all encompassing secret gina was born and raised in the philippines. There she became a star on that country's thriving transgender beauty pageant scene. After that she moved to america to launch her

Modeling career, however, here in this new and strange country, she was justifiably very worried about letting anybody in the fashion world know that she was transgender. So for many many years she lived with this secret, one that could have destroyed her livelihood at any moment in two thousand fourteen, she decided to come out publicly in a ted talk that now has more than four million views today, she's a public speaker, trans rights activist and award winning producer writer director. She is also an author she's, just out with a new memoir called horse. Barbie you'll hear her explain what exactly that means will also talk about the cost of living with such a huge secret, why she decided to come out and we talk about the overlap between gender and spirituality. I first met gina

ted conference in vancouver a few weeks ago. Shortly thereafter, I ran into her in a lad another conference, and that is where we recorded this interview in person. have you ever been in an airplane or on a train, and you just want to tune out the noise even while meditated you find background noise, extremely annoying and distracting. We are now with our friends at the twelve hours, sound machine podcast, to highlight a useful tool that I use on a regular basis are used white noise, I go early in my own life as I travel a lot so far. plain or a train or in a cab anywhere, where there's background noise like a driver's playing the radio, and I want to be rude and ask him to turn it down. I just put in my headphones turn. some white noise and block out all of the noises that might occur. destroy my meditation practice check out the door, our sound machine podcast for your white noise options and needs

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coming on then Harris. Thank you for having me it's so nice to actually do this in person, because I'm so are. Most of our interviews are zoomed, so it's like it's great to actually sit in a room with you, I feel so special now how that now, as if that were the case, friends together, you know with the same group of people and then here we are in a different city doing this. So this is. This is amazing to me, but the title of the book course barbie. What does that mean the way I'd say? Horse barbie is a spirit, a spirit that up here in the philippines when they started joining trans pageants at fifteen years old. I became so popular and so big and reached the top of the page and culture on top of my game at fifteen. On my third pageant, I won the biggest title and they stayed there right so obviously you're in this very competitive stage. My competitors, you know,

called me horse. I look like a horse because of my long at my protruding profile and my sharks, and so they started calling me horse as a taunt. It's is t seen. Obviously it hurt to be called that and then one day my my pageant manager, her name is tiger lily. She saw on stage. And she saw like the way I projected myself the way I posed away. I carried myself is so regal re she said she saw me on stage as he said, you know you look like a horse barbie, and since then that surf mythical entered she passion and magic hamas as something I carried with me. You know like whole evolution when they said adjoining pageants in the philippines to moving to new york city. It's it's a thing that that's always with me. How would you some of that spirit for people who might want to channel it for themselves.

At least what I would remember when they move to new acceding to toss in five that when I needed the money because when they moved to new york in two thousand and five as a fashion model, I had to go stealth, meaning at the time in two thousand five. You cannot be an alien, proud, transgender fashion model. My model agent did not know was trends. Fashion industry did not know I so I was living in this difficulty having two realities that same time, the paranoia and all that. So barbies. Only. I remember feeling like that spirit is right here. Next to my shoulder, you know that I could talk to that spirit of horse. My written the essence of. What it did in the philippines and in some way I needed to have that survive in oak, as it was difficult

There are so many stories of trans woman that came before me. The fashion models that came before me like the moment they got out it through a whisper that their trans, their careers, disappeared, so horse barbie, something in spite of like that difficulty of going through it and pursuing my dream I needed to have that remind myself up, who I really am because in many ways I lost myself There's always the fashion model at the time into tat some five- you know I just remembered I recognise the degree of privilege in ought to be able to pass to be seen ass. This model but I was also in this industry that is all about the power of imagery right in fashion advertising media. I was so visible.

covers of magazines all that times square billboard, but I was also consciously invisible at the same time to horse bar based at one thing that could you know visualize as a reminder of who I truly am at this time, when you were kind of gaining an losing an identity. Simultaneously, this spirit, as you called it, was what kind of kept you grounded. It was the life preserver in a raging ocean. It sounds to me perfectly per it's. An embargo had do cap in alive in this in any moment I found out. I want to talk a little bit more about you use the word paranoia and living with this fear of being found out, but me just stick with horse barbie for a second, because I feel like there's something kind of universal there that many of us may not. We do this, but we probably should is, to TIM back. I've been further that a kind of therapy called internal family systems where you

name all the different parts of yourself. You know a lot of us have parts ourselves that we are ashamed of or that we hate and that we cannot make peace with, and so we compartmentalize already pretendedst there and then, of course, every once in a while that part of our personality gets hold of the steering wheel and we do a bunch of ship that we later regret it. So it's important to. According to this, I have theory tat. I have a decent relationship with the various parts of yourself. Some parts of ourselves, though, are incredibly awesome and empowering and are like our online version of the buddhist and indeed daddy's of compassion that we hear about and so horse barbie sounds to me like your inner dignity, strength, certainty in your own goodness, and I think all of us could benefit from naming, that part of ourselves see clearly and relying on it during difficult times? Does that make sense? I connected everything.

said there is, I think, as I wrote this it certainly remember horse barbie. Is that spirit for me and I could talk to ports barbie next shoulder and even even the whole book, you know it's written Chapter title is almost like its own identity said it carried with me, and sometimes I felt like an each I've gone true in. had to inhabit those ideas. Tea and new names, because.

I came from very very different culture growing up, born and raised in the philippines, so to adjust to evolve to survive, while at the same time that north star of horse mrp, I needed to have all those just to say, I'm about to say some things that are not really directed at you, but directed more at the audience. If people are listening to this and they're skeptical, I just want to say a couple of things. One is there's a lot of research. In particular, we had a guest on the show a couple of years ago, Ethan cross, who had a big impact on me as a psychological researcher at the university of michigan, and he wrote a book called chatter and he talked all about how we generally talk to ourselves in extremely unkind ways. If I said to other people the type of shit I said to myself. I would get punished in the face of the regular and science demonstrates that we can really. Why are the way we talk to herself by channeling our internal

worse, barbie or whatever you want to call it for yourself. So, as is one thing to say, and the second thing to say is that for me meditation specifically loving kindness meditation, which, as a skeptic, I was initially not that big a fan of, but it enhanced my capacity to see my own horse barbie my own little year, dan Harris and the horse rv. I live in a color. I am seeing on whatever you wanna say that but dan harris horse, barbie wow, sounds good to me: you know of saying that we all have that there's something by the way you are just below saying you realize that always narva here you go. I blush. Last night my wife said last night, I blushed we met somebody and want to name job. We met somebody famous I was not expecting to meet ok and there are very few famous people that would freak out in this person did and bianca, Is it a hollow and personal reasons? I am.

I usually don't get blushed by hollywood people, okay, but so you and I are in l a right now we were just having dinner last night with friends were not famous yeah and a famous person came in to the house yeah and I blushed. and so you know, fifteen years and now I'm blushing again, alright yeah of it, I think you're just pointing to something I do want to dive more deeply into your specific story, because it so incredibly compelling. But here we are at the beginning. This conversation, I think, talking about something It is really universal, and I want to be aware that some people listening mobility. Well, I kind like talk to my own inner horse barbie get over yourself because there's a lot of science. That shows that doing this thing, which you, by the way in this, is incredibly impressive. You came to this on your own, unlike me, who, like actually read a lot of people and saw the science and was able to learn how to channel my own best version of myself, you in desperation came to. This

incredible! Realization, which I think is all the more impressive if there is an easier way, I am sure, would have taken that, but, like I had know, I had no choice and I think, when you're in that edge, If you really can see what's next How I could continue? was reminded of that you and I needed to really and pack all the journeys. I've gone true and this particular happen when I turn thirty years old, that's when they decided after modeling for eight years and having to carry this secret. Having that burden of having to always self added everything that I say, everything from your dispersion and talking to where the fuck are you into my inner circle in my outside, be circles see circle over. Do they tell you about my life store all of that this where's barbie of us next to my shoulder all the time have to be my guiding spirit from your on. You know, because it was, it was

lot of suffering and the actual you mention a meditation dd yoga. no not yet hands at these and made me. Do you go in as little and as a result, I've always had a bit of a problem with it. Ok all right. Let's you're interview and am pro generally, I would not for me. I have tried meditation that sitting down you, I get it. I feel at the closest. I just imagine that feeling of being in the zone, the quietness, the brass single in a now israel I remember when I was about turn thirty years old and I knew s as I'm entry. This new text in my life questioning. Ok, what has happened? The one single thing I could think of wise. I can continue, keeping us in having this bring in my life? How do we move forward and it did so

I had a medical condition and my dermatologists was, I gave me all the medication, nothing was working at the moment. I decided to tap into that breastwork. I started doing intense yoga hot vanessa. Sometimes twice the day, every day, after months and months of taking medications like all disturbed medication, that you good thing off doing yoga in like two weeks, the condition I was having disappeared. You know a detailed in the book. What It happened there, but certainly yoga meditation, and I remember one day I was really hot, intense yoga like difficult position and its hot. It's me. else you know It'S- it's difficult position- but the moment of addiction the position that I was doing all I could remember as dead intimate in and out of my breath, and I think the most peaceful thing

that I can remember that I found in the most in circumstances. you shouldn't be feeling like peaceful, it's hot and difficult. I remember coming home and chest completely letting go that that that sense of peace, and I've found in that moment, and in that space was. I could picture right now You know how that felt in its on something I care, me and yoga in so many obviously yoga meditation connected in and out of its essence, something. That I care with men in many many ways after dad weather I also have family members or friends to have are going through something difficult. I share that experience and because I know how much it helped me, I believe that, and I am not- and I know you're not saying this- I'm not against modern medicine. I don't either of us is yet modern. Medicine has been good to me, so

in many ways they set aside. I say I'm happy nothing against riding we're on this, team there, and some of our conditions are based in psychology goal, trauma and tumult, and sometimes to get to the router that you need something that might not be traditional, modern medicine. So I think I could absolutely see how yoga might get under the hood in a deep, deep way and and bring the a lot of health benefits. I saw truth there. You know in whatever way one defines that for for me in that moment, in my life, that simple in and out of that breathwork poof gives me some still thinking about it? We really propelled me too, like that staying and is still something I went to cannot keep going back to speaking of going back. I do want to go back to this period

time where you are living with this paranoia that you ve reference to a couple of times you're want to. If it's ok generally go there for a second, you open the book by telling a story of a john legend music video, which was really sort of the. It seems like the peak moment of your feelings. It into two parts and really living with a lot of fear. Would you mind telling that story and why that moment, really kind of summed up your predicament sure I just moved to new york city My agency told me, like I'm, been hired to in a star and John nations music video. He was been coming at the time- is this: on cold number, one, and ray supermodel laws that had been a music videos. I gonna naomi Campbell, Linda evangelist, say you know, like divorce, start in big music videos. That's that's what I

I thought I was doing and I was like I'm going to be in the music video I I'm going to breach the stars ride. This is my ticket to stardom and fame, and when god on the sad in a director, told me proposed a certain way and yeah there's a choreographer. You know that the deficit. Precision me at the back. You know, which is like I'm just sort of like behind this curtain, a reflection in the way I move, but because the way it was saw their doing close up soon. I remember seeing that and thought that they might he, something whether it's my Angola, the way I move, that kind of parents, Why it's that moment of what did I get myself into yeah now It was a lot of fear, and this is a thing where I was I was in lingerie. I was in luxurious longe, raise feeling sexy supposedly in my head, any moment here. Somebody could say something the stylus suno asked.

to come with her, and then I thought, like ok, just to say in an army, continued working and now is the beginning of that being visible, but also consciously being invisible at the same time, and there was the most intense in our. To be welcome in that expectation of this is good. to be my dream, my ticket to fame and realize realise this is why I have to do it all the time every day, and you know sometimes I looked. I think this is why I love spy john rounds. I so was writing spoke. I realize I think why, because I felt like I was a spy in a clear and this in operation all the time for eight years, because I cannot let go my cover. I have to play that all. Whenever I am called to freight years, I was asked by being a trans stealth fashion model. Many of us live with secrets, ward of its costs to living with us

or for that one I loss that sense of self. I was this very vibrant young trance. And queen and the philippines. boy ends being on stage. The feeling of I have that power for me personally, when I had to be stopped- the fashion model, all those after temper, all of that ray and then the other side of that is that emotional turmoil of editing of not having relationship. I cannot have any relationship, I'm twenty one years old in your city young model is seal. I played around, and I did my thing, but I couldn't have deep relationship because trends woman's models that came before me. It's littered with stories of his years with someone

and that person whispered to someone that they're trans all it took is just at one's whisper, and then I'm done. That's how much at stake that they had to live with and to have that all the time every day of your life. Couldn't let go no one. When I was thirty years old, I couldn't continue living that life more something has to give. I had one very close friend and other trans filipino that truly understand when I was going through. So it's good that I have you know I have a couple of like really even like the non trans girlfriend, so they had for so long. They also didn't know even those relationship. Yes, it is a friendship. But that is just an aspect of why and I couldn't fully let go waiting They know who I am so when I shared with them about who I am and accepted me because they never saw me ass any other way but other denied.

I couldn't maintain a relationship, and I was young. I was partying and having fun, but certainly alcohol and all of that stuff was a big way to temper. All of that truth that I I have to put it aside or self medicating. Basically, with alcohol I mean, I looked back now certainly owes young twenty years old, but I was doubly partying taylor and I think a lot of that is to forget about, like distinct, that have to do this thing to have to deal with this truth that they have to keep secret. So you, finally, as you said, something had to give something had to break, and that came in a very public way on the stage at ted in two thousand and fourteen will post a link to your ted talk in the show notes, so people can go watch it for themselves, but you get up in extremely public forum and come out. I just watched the talk, and I was wondering to myself like how terrified were you. to come. Tell your story in this way. It was terrifying, but I think let me also say that,

and I made that decision- ok, I'm going do this, I'm finally ready to tell my story- and many things had happened that led to that detail in the book there so many scenes that set sense of ownership that I It's almost like this sense of purpose, but so much bigger than my fear and nobody could stop me and that there is a switch and that mindset and one I made the decision I reached out to couple of friends and said, I'm ready to tell my story. I wanna do in the biggest high possible. I said if I'm going to risk, they ask us. This was twenty thirteen. When I made that decision is still a risk and a friend who had spoken a tad said, I told today If you have the story, and next thing I knew I was in conversation with them and they're like this is the first time saying this in public, yes, and they were like okay, who have never had this conversation before nobody has presented these stories by someone a transfer.

So let's do I? Yes, it was nerve. Wracking ted with also gave me wonderful speech, coach named Gina Barnett was named. Gina is also now my jewish mother also dear dear friend, and more than just a speech coach. She was man. And in tat moment and and all the things that you taught me about storytelling. I still carry with me and in a moment she was just like once you opened this box and cannot see that again, but once you ve shared this truth, you ve done your part. Whatever happens happens, but the truth and the beauty of this. sperience dispirit that you're about to give to people. In that moment this enough, you know that have done that and that's a gift to the world. a kind of calmed down, but I remember the very first time I rehearse on that ted stage. You know that stage it

Big, its intimidating is a lot of people, the powerful peoples in the world, but like just being on a big big stage, but I remember doing- were herself an chess horse. Barbie was bad. You know that whole being on stage, muscle memory it s back, and I felt tiger lily was there next to me again you're telling me I could do it and I will always remember her advice when I was doing pageants in the philippines should always- me like whether you are competing in front of twenty thousand colosseum and the philippines, or five hundred people in front of you are a national television speaking in question and answer when you're in stage how'd you create intimacy. How do you harness You know, as I remember that and then in a combination of what Gina Burnett told me, as I listened to your breath, really take your time

and they do remember when I was giving that speech, I could hear my breath and that calm down and that and intimacy. That's all I could remember. I know I said. Obviously I did. I did the talk about those who, whether it's the horsepower, the spirit next to me or the breast that Gina Burnett told me it was on her so yeah. I did that you could really tell when you're watching the speech that you are taking your time and any terror. I was projecting onto you because you seem very confident in the moment, but I was just thinking wolf. I was in her position. I would be terrified and it's great to hear from the inside from you one of the thing I wanted to talk about when you- and I were talking about this before we started the inner you and it's a team in your talk, and it's also a theme in the book- is the overlap between gender and spirituality Can you educate me a little bit about that? I'm born and raised in the philippines? This is a country

and culture to have a long history of gender fluidity in yo times in the philippines. Philippines is an archipelago, seven thousand islands with many different dialects, but certainly before We were colonized by spain, transgender people, anxious use that term for now gender fluid people actually called at the time by LAN. We have em a mythical God is, namely a party whose psych engender fluid goddess of golden rise harvests and fertility. It's so imbedded in our culture, her understanding that gender is fluid. I believe transit For gender, not conforming, people are the most spiritual human beings, in the world certainly ice, see that now because we're also speak about american western contacts here that we live in a society that we're brought up in this very rigid binary of rigid male, rigid, female and all the rigidity that comes with that

Trans engendered on informing people, we see them. You know, we know the limits of that, and I like Who believed that we offer that answer to freedom to people that would our lived experience, despite how much attacks or shame. Society would give us. It's. Why all the problems attacks on our lives wanting to be a race we still choose to be, who we are? There's no promise that it's going to be. Okay is going to be good, but it's this really powerful truth, and it will challenge that at the same time gives freedom to everybody, the pursuit of your truth in whatever definition. That is, whether its two percent to free,

your religion to how you are taught class base. All of that pursue that, and we did that and that through gender. True that spirituality, that propels us to move forward. So I hear to gifts there to the rest of the species from the transgender gender nonconformity rooted. One would be just the sheer courage. It takes to be yourself in a culture that doesn't accept you and how that can be a beacon for all of us, whether we are conformity or not, and the second is that you help us think outside the box out of the binary see that within all of us, I can inhabit. Stereotypically are traditionally feminine aspects of a human that I might I have seen the potential for horse larvae done heroism, Aragon, exactly blessing. The first of us all suggests,

I mean the fun aspect of that is to laugh in this. I hope one way or menu. I like to think there's many wise tradespeople could show the world than everybody's that goes through and figure out. What is that true for you in the fun way in this virtual way, because it's there rigid understanding of gender only leads to suffering, not just for us, but for straight cisgender, everybody that still believe that and then the other side of that is that trans gender nonconforming people offers the freedom to explore

the spectrum YAP. Just for my own lived experience. I know intimately what it's like to be sick, gender straight mail and we are socialized not to access aspects of our personality in including sensitivity just to name one and that hurts us. You know it does just mean that we are creating harm the world for other people were limiting our own capacity for happiness. If we can't access compassion, if we can't access kindness sensitivity, if all of that is tempt down by a culture that pushes us in the direction of aggression and sex, only then we too are victimized as we victimize others. We have this belief. Eaters. in the philippines enveloping culture called up what is worth called cop out, what it is is basically is this

the community aspect in our lives. Cop lot basically means in herself shared with others, Growing up in the philippines, I didn't exist as a single person, I'm always a reflection of the inter community they now I moved america, the whole endeavour Will this aspect of things were saying so reared to me? You mean you do this by yourself You're only singled out as this one person and you try to pretend that you didn't do it with all the other things that comes of the help of the community, one of the biggest culture shock, I mean cause. I existed in the quarter and development where it's all about the intra community. You don't exist as a single person. Yes, I think that also is causing us a lot of harm just to to think that we have to do everything ourselves that we're not connected to other people and that drives us further into our screens.

we keep our heads up our masses and when we know that the number one source of happiness for human beings is relationships with other people before I let you go. Is there something I should have asked you but fail to ask? Is there a site? I want to talk about that in writing it I can be covered this than the final question is. Can you please remind us of the name of the book and any other contact you ve created that you want people to access cages shamelessly plot? oh yeah. I am let's do this. My book horse barbie, my memoir, will come out made thirty it's available everywhere. You could now pre order at you. Follow me on my instagram, that's when the most active and on the link. My buyer you'll see all the other things that have done their direct toil project that have done with people step receive emmy nominations to all the speeches and all the other projects, I'm it's all my

run by a leg. So paulo me, there are some to say in closing that immunity what one of the amazing part of my job is it not only that I get too neat incredible people, but that I can help get their stories out in the world, and I am very proud to help get your story out there. What you ve done is I am wishing you nothing, but success going forward. I am still enjoying dan harris horse barbie. I'm sorry, I didn't say that you said yeah now it's this spiritual connection there yeah now that I anyway. Thank you. Thank you so much for for having me. Thank you. It's been this will allow a coincidence- and I don't know how you explain coincidence, but certainly I recognise, as a coincidence. Obviously we met. We were both speakers had ted recently and even like just here, I'm here in my hotel for this conference that were both parties. I was dear. I was desoto two weeks ago when they checked in, for

conference. I walk. There is the same. Exact room was getting idea and when, things happen? I lean and I were there s a twinkle of course, barbie saying you got this. Something is here so I hope that more of that me to thank you thanks in thanks again to Gina zero Thank you as well to you for listening. Please help me up on twitter or through the ten percent dot com website to share any feedback about this. This new format were experimenting with finally everybody who worked so hard on the show ten percent happier produced by justine davy terror, Anderson, Gabrielle, sacrament and Lauren Psmith deeds. Kashmir as our senior producer, moorish nighter men, is our senior editor and can be regular? Is our executive producer scoring and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio? Can we get our theme music from nick thorpe,

and of islands. We'll see you on Monday for a brand new episode, we're to talk you rain Wilson plagued dwight, shrewd and on the office hilarious character, earmarking, and have been for a long time. I am sure many of you are as well the also in many may not know. This has really interesting sort of contemplative background and has just written a book calling for what he refers to his soul. Was you on Monday for that? A prime members, you can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music down

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