This is the ten percent happier podcasting dan Harris hello. My fellow suffering beings virtue, is a tricky topic. It is often soldier by religious leaders, thundering judge mentally and sometimes hypocritically down to us from the mountain top. But from the buddhist perspective, there is actually a deeply self interested case for ethics and virtue, and, as you will hear, this approach is quite flexible and open to personal interpretation. The buddhist sir, not trying to get you to follow a bunch of very specific rules there trying to get you to

no harm, because that will make you happy. This is part two of our series on a venerable buddhist list called the noble eightfold path you can think of this list as a kind of recipe of eight practices that we'll get you toward enlightenment. To put it in a way that will appeal to sceptics, boot would work sure that enlightenment is a thing you can do about this list as a bunch of ways to help you do life better. The three middle items on the list all have to do with ethical conduct. They are right, speech, right action and right livelihood, as you will hear our guests,

The talk about this stuff in super practical and non dogmatic, non preachy ways our guest is eugene. Cap she's been a buddhist teacher since nineteen ninety he's the founding teacher of san francisco insight and a senior teacher on the spirit rock teacher council. His teaching is influenced by many streams of buddhism, terror, vodka, then, and tibetans. In this conversation, we talk about how to make terms such as virtue and ethics more attractive to sceptics. Eugene case, that being ethical is in your self interest. The idea that kindness can actually be hard, nosed and tough how the buddha could be hard on people with was helpful for those people how to use right speech skilfully, why he says that practicing right action all day long is his idea of fun and the technical versus the holistic understanding of right livelihood. I want to let you know about something

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Eugene cash welcome to the show- oh hey, damn good to me to be here. I quite glad you're here this interviews, a series we're doing on the noble eightfold bath and you're gonna talk about three of The items on the list of eight that are often described as kind of the ethical peace. So we're gonna talk about words such as virtue and ethics today, and I have the feeling that for many people, these words can be provocative. is so many of us have been on the receiving end of moralistic moral. Using lectures from religious hypocrites. So how can we make these terms terms such as virtue and ethics, attractive to sceptics, kids helpful to remember that the words have a meaning that may not be

David tierney hipaa criticism has effort good work, Really? What I mean by that, like the word virtue, is a beautiful word, an understanding of buddhism, because it really about harmony and being virtuous with what being an alignment with the truth and again. without ethics. I feel very similar. The ethics are about create. Harmony with one self and others in a way that works. and in a way that real, it's not about doing the right thing it's about doing what's needed and watch true in the lived moment. It's not just as set in stone at that men, are most of the time. It's really ethical to say the truth, but sometimes it's not after contact. She say it's true. It's not the right time at the right place. I'm hearing- and this may be

Maybe I'm reading too much into your utterances here, but I'm hearing possibly implied in what you said that one way to make this attractive to people the otherwise fraught notions such as virtue and ethics, is to point out that there is no small amount of self interest in this totally. Very good. He give you an a on that now, really because it is about what's true here and why really boundaries to us. What are we care about, and especially a few study good as summers studying meditation or you, trying to learn what it means to wake up. That's all about yourself interests and the beauty of it. Of course, is self interest doesn't stop with one self self interest in everyone's interests because we're all here together, like it or not? I was just thinking about this today,

There are so many bugs in the software of homo sapiens, but there's this incredibly elegant feature, which is that enlightened self interest doing what is in your best interest in the most elevated sense of the term self interest is a win win proposition. Doing good, for others is good for you, totally I mean just how to be good for you the other ways to look at it. From the other side, it's not good for you to be kind? Somebody if the kindness makes them or better still there easier to be around their dice should relate to. They do. Work better, whatever it might be, or they do care of themselves in their family better. How can there be good for all of us this? Maybe we're done. I think one objection people have among perhaps many to the idea of ethics sore virtues such as compassion

is that, while we live in a deeply unethical and virtuous world, so if I try to be ethical and virtuous or compassion and I'm at a disadvantage against all of the bad actors out there on softy, I would say that the opposite is true that the advantages eared landing in the truth and there's nothing stronger than the truth in some places. They say the truth will set you free, just not a buddhist saying, but it's really a powerful sang, and so there is it difference between landing in the strength, power of truth and being a softly and the people who need to act on virtuously who need act uncommonly mainly greedily it's because their totally soft inside they don't have.

strength, and so they use in fake, strengthen fake power. I think a lot of people have in their lives people who they perceived to be bad actors, mendacious militias boss, a brother in law, really of noxious and annoying- and many of us feel this is to be repetitive deliberately that were Well, you ve got an arm tied behind our back. If we're going to respond to these people with nothing but kindness, kindness can be fears. Kindness can be direct, much more unkind, not to be real with people who is offering from their delusion or their ignorance or their greed. And then the question is how the skilfully be kind, not just be nice. And so I often work with people who ask these kind of questions, because this is a really normal common core should that everybody has had deal with my mother, my? How do I deal with this person? In work

you know. My first question is always one. we want an. How can use they had no way where maybe they can hear see what possible the direct interaction. Instead, just feeling like ok, I'm a collapse now, because I can't deal with this guy. Why can't to deal with this man, a woman or a person and then what happens if you become direct with them in a way that maybe they could hear it- and I said maybe because again. I don't have a second stone answer, but as part of their creativity there come. From mine from this. If we are really in the moment more come to us there stir usual ideas, there's more agents here than we now in each of us and that's part me what dharuma practice.

Begins to reveal to us. There is a great story that parents salzburg, the legendary meditation teacher. I've heard her tell story when she was studying in india, and somebody asked what do you do Somebody tries to steal your bag and they answer. Was you compassionately the more whack with your umbrella, oh yeah, you can passionately smack and with your umbrella, give them all the love in your heart is you hit them, and it is, that's what's needed and that something about really waking up waking up it's not about being good, it's about being real It's about seeing. What's true, you know Bhutto was very tough if you read they all scriptures, he winced very tough son he's laughing at people or he sang their idiot, sees people and then, of course, that doesn't get well publicize when you're doing an opening talk for people- that's not the pardon.

It is on that gets put to the forever, but in fact he could be there hard on people when it was helpful for them. Yes, there are discourse is where he rails against somebody, says you ignorant man and then hold forth the totally these tough but the tough guy doesn't get publicize so much now. I think buddhism could use some re marketing than some key ways. Okay, so was speaking about it. So you're gonna appeal off three of the items on the list of the noble, fold path. So before we get into the individual items. Anything you want to say to serve set the stage to state aid for path is beautiful understanding about what I mean to practice and to awaken and town live, are awakening tat you leave awakening on the question. It's not just

Oh we wake up and everything's fine, because everything is not fine, but what does it mean? actually live. It is what the three pieces you're talking about are about right. It's about right speech it action right, livelihood most people are always talking. I dont mean always every moment, but I mean most people like to talk to other people, most people in many different ways were always doing something and then We all need to have some money. We all need tat narrow, do something so weakened, survive, and so those three components are so normal and is woven into our lives. The term that uses right, speed, he tried action right, livelihood and I'm like the right most people. Don't these days, it's because of right and wrong, and so people

use wiser kind whenever they using, but I'm an old school guy, and he said I really like the word right, because a few copyright the dictionary at some point, one of the meaning. The right means to come into a chord with the truth that were right means and that's what right speeches about. That's where randy action about that's what right now, we heard about succumbing to accord with the truth and, of course, there this knows who may not know one of the ways dogma is translated as truth and coming into a chord with the dama, with the truth with the waste things are, is free. then living. It is really the cutting edge for most of us. It is for me I've done a lot of meditation in my life and its good and it's been gray, but it's different to be in the world and to function and to

talk to my wife when I'm angry or to be really clear about what's appropriate. action, what's not appropriate action in any situation, that's right, livelihood. I know a lot about right, livelihood in detail meekly, I know a lot about wrong livelihoods to cause. I wasn't always buddhists and I did something said and good as some would probably be considered wrong. Livelihood them went that bad the risks. stay where you are gone. Runner has known as the one that bad, but I was back in a different world when things like marijuana were illegal and I was involved in those world said tat. It was very interesting world to be in the old days. Robot rightly,

livelihood doesn't necessarily mean you have to hew strictly to the: u s legal code, Iraq, as I could see what Selling marijuana to somebody would be very much right livelihood. I agree. I always thought it was but you're doing a lot of things said: put ones self and others in jeopardy legally had so? That's not so skilful and aid thing god or anybody buddha that I never got arrested for some of the things I was involved in sounds like you have been funded now with back in the day. I knew how to have fun. We hit right, lively, as I say, the third on the lists, let's start with right speech, how do we understand right speech. What does even mean were right, just really very basic speech about being true.

Of that wine or that be harsh to people that gas, a big things like that that were right, speech technically means It's very important remember right speeches, not mindful speech, mindful. Speech is another component about speech that really under the greater right speech, a browser, but it's different cause. Mindful speech is enough. First foundation of mind from this, which is more from this of the body. Mindful of the pasture mindful of the breath, mindful of that elements of the body mindful of the activities of the body and then being mindful of speaking and listening and so Does it mean to do that? What it means is to feel sense. aware of your body right now, as were speaking and listening you and I

So there is a kind of different order: intention to reality when we sense and are aware of our body as were speaking and listening, and, of course being aware of the other person and their body right, because there so embodied at that time, and of course you can hear a lot if you watch their body which do you know about. As you know, interviewing people, you forget so many different messages by but their bodies delay caused correspond. is part of speech and that mindful speech and then right speeches just about being honest in direct, not This is the kind of terms are used for right speech and it's very simple: it's not a big deal or anything it's just what your mother would say say what's true

don't lie, don't attack people with your speech had very simple and then the death starts down. happen as were living our lives, and what does it mean to speak in alignment with the truth, rightly in alignment with the truth in this situation, with my daughter with my wife, with my friends with my colleagues with my neighbours, If people I don't like what does it mean to speak without lying by being truthful, not divisive, not abuse of, and not being dishonest at all. To be clear right speech doesn't mean just blurting out what happens to be true anytime. You want I've heard it sometimes described as say that which is true at the right time, yes say what is true at the right time when its appropriate, because sometimes it's not appropriate and with people. You love like

My daughter, whose a total grown up person these days, so I don't have to be damned very much with her, but sometimes she needs that ends time she needs for there to be clear about what she's talking about and just listen more deeply and Yet what is she really saying and what might be helpful because, of course, I'm a teacher I am happy to tell everybody everything I know all the time it part of my job really the right part of my job, both as a teacher and his father is not saying everything all the time just cause. I know it. True you on one hand some I have some wrong about what's true, but really the other part is sometimes that's not what's skillful, that's not what's helpful, that's not which actually kind I've said this before in the show, but it bears repeating we're all talking all the time two other people were typing to other people. If we're not talking

and at the very least we're talking to ourselves, and yet nobody ever really teaches us how to do this with any level of skill, and so were often putting our foot nor mouths or alienating people or abusing our lives or others were just fuck this up on the regular I've said that a bunch on the show and then, as I was preparing to interview you, I saw that you quoted some great teacher, said something to the effective were all enlightened until we open our mouth yeah yeah. I know it's great quote I'm trying to remember who said it? I think it was sissy pierrot. She who said that in its true is a practice right speech. That's the other part of the aid for path. It's not like. You just learned the different links of the path and that here, ok, Rights be tried action right, livelier, it's a living practice, right speech, right, action. These are alive in the moment and that's what's beautiful well, don't it's about the reality of now

even now, you're doing your job, you wanna, do it right, you want to do it so that its powerful or it's good. It helpful and it's an alignment with the truth because of its? Not it isn't good. If we wanted to make a practice in real life as you're talking about you know in the moment of right speech, any guidance for how to barbara analyze this in our lives as an experiment of the next couples. Who are you could do it a lot of different ways just be aware of What do you want to say before you say it? Don't you say beware of furs and then, Do I want to say it or don't, and you have a choice. Had that's a certain kind of freedom and the freedom to say which want to say or the freedom to not say what you want to say that both part of freedom. So just do it for one day, that's a great way to practices. of course another one is, you know, don't talk

about anybody who is not in the room for a day really. I learned this Joseph go see and he said that he said he did He couldn't believe how little he had to say. And so there so many different ways- and this is part of the creativity of the dogma- think for yourself What would be an interesting practice for me to do for one day with right speech? What, if I didn't start any conversation for one day unless I really needed to fight terrorism the really important, but otherwise I just wait The conversation came to me for one day, and I am just making this up is we're talking brad thought of that before, but one saying is think for yourself. what would you do, whoever you are out there in whatever man? You know what would be, interesting for you or even thinking. Oh, how can I

They something kindly each conversation I have for one day and see what happens That's a different way of worry containers speech instead if having no guidance, no training, no education about it. Let's move on because we've got three aspects of the noble eightfold path we want to cover. Let's move on to right action. You have said that of the three: This is the key. So what is right action wise at the key? It's a kick us. were acting all the time right, even right now this is action were acting and I don't mean acting like performing, I mean were involved enough function, no part of reality. and we're always functioning in different ways in europe. Even if you sit down meditate functioning man, that's an action, and so that's what I mean by its key, that if we can be

to find some harmony europe. We can come in alignment with the truth, which are like the push there A right that is free cuts then were practising twenty four seven and that my kind of fun it's like How can I practice twenty four seven now in this situation? You know with their talking on microphones in stuff or have been recorded or its when I got across said I had a great work out a cross fit today, this money, that's our practice. I'm functioning on relating to people to the trainers and stuff into the other people there. and there is a kind of harmony that I'm love and that's part of right action and, of course, technically now the basics about not taking wife and not stealing, and not act in a way,

that harm people sexually. You know those in the basics of right action, and so there are considered ethical as you. And their moral, but also they protect us as I think everybody knows, if going around killing and stealing it's hard to be peaceful inside of yourself not kind to yourself this? guarding for a moment, the unkindness to the outer world to the inner world. There is no peace. You can ever really relax and sell their. A kind of inner harmony that we seek. And I believe that draws people to meditation and so its woven into everything. We do action. This goes back to self interest in so many people come to meditation, nor, medication or therapy or whatever. It is because they want some

They want to relax, they want a break from their anxiety or depression or whatever it is, and it's not the dessert we ordered, but the truth is that actually, if you com. One huge compounded of it is don't be an asshole You know if I had a bell here at ring thing: yeah, totally, delphi that so that's like a no brainer to me, but not enough branded everybody, because I've been heard for harmed or confused or ties, you know whatever might be, and so they think of that's what you do to survive, Maybe it helps you get through something but its long term. It's so good to act from your heart really the goodness of the human heart which you know doesn't get enough publicity down here is one of my big complaints. love to travel having traveled much doing covered at all, I've done a team

Betty travel to see my daughter, but I've done travel in my life, and I am always amazed at how kind people are when you're in another world you I've been to all over europe and asia, and and people were when you don't know where you going when your loss and peace what so kind and so helpful. Just naturally, this is not Acta? Sir anything, this is just natural good heart in those for most people, and that is almost no publicity. What gets publicity around the wars and all their hatred and all the racism and other sex is all there is domes and all the other stuff that people do, that is Michel gonna, do you know the word michel gonna, yes farm? How have you so I know a little yiddish but trouble making. Yes, we should. The also needs crazy monkey yeah so I know it and that's it.

Oh it's almost a polly word michigan sugar night, so that, after that, it really is really important to see the good heartedness and people which is here for most people, Poland, the world actually and that's just isn't from view than just seemed than to guard the difficulty that people cause coming up. Eugene cash talks about why he says that accessing right action. All day long is, is idea of fun and the technical versus the holistic, understanding of bright, lively, good. It's easy to grow more vibrant plants, just freedom of miracle grow shaken feed shake a little around your plans once every three months and you get that silly needs, and I now have a short talk about threats: commercial. I guess I could stuff, my favorite plants, the weapon fig

honeysuckles, any kind of furnace sucker for a phone spies, plants roses classic. Oh wait. I forgot to have safe slogan to miracle grow what need to know to grow from wondering. Comes a new series flipping the bird deal on versus twitter story. What happens when the richest man on the planet decide to apply, a powerful social media company in the name free speech, but does he have what it takes? It started off promising, or is this all just about elon he's, essentially not that his tweets aren't performing as well as he plays with expansive enough to really just felt like okay? This really is just a platform being ruled by a dictator who does things on his own lands and what will be left to twitter by the time dot basically, my entire things, this guy by the end of its infrastructure, which is completely guided, collect, tweet, a thing and then emeralds like we're gonna work on that now, because he tweet

ass. Possibly this man is a genius Despite everything, it was kind of descending into chaos, model flipping the bird wherever you get your bag guess paper. I members you can listen epoch. Aunt brie, on amazon, music, download the amazon music gap. Today he talked about the goodness of the human heart and that came to denote the jaded types. me. You will come out of an industry. I used to be a journalist and one of our little catchphrases is we don't report on the plane that lands safely so to people who come from my kind of background and have you know I don't want to blame it all on journalism? I think it was hard wired for some measure of heart, in this, so when I hear goodness of the human heart I you know it provokes a bit of a gag reflex, but I do think in looking at my notes on you in preparing for this interview that I think what you're pointing out is a word that came up repeatedly in my research on you, which is realness yeah, that's per

the goodness of, are pushing this. Goodness of the hard thing, could I ask you a question What do you have a good her? My answer for a law? time would be. I don't know- or I doubt it, Now I do have confidence that I do and when I'm not there having well it's because the goodness is obscured. Yes, sir, you a good solid, thank you so much have to downplay the good heartedness of humans because it so corny your walt disney ass. You know which I get. Believe me. I spend a lot of time in new york and do you Tough new york's are no bullshit city and always great. That way I mean there are so many good heritage people in new york- and there were so many people who could be tough and the good herndon. This were in the same people, who were also tough times customers.

no bullshit right slight. Let's give real. See. You said something earlier that I then made a note to come back to, which is that practising right action all day. Long is your idea of fun and I'm playing skeptical here with. Actually, I think I understand what you're saying, but I can imagine somebody hearing them saying well cut. I'm gonna try to european I dont or my mindfulness or my ethical game. Twenty four seven that sounds exam that sounds like a bit of an inner nanny state. How is that fun? It's fun! We If you really practice twenty four seven. The practice of both sides hm the action and livelihood comes out of being present and whereas you gonna be except present, you wanna be somewhere else where you aren't, you wanna be somewhere else, but you can be aware of wanting to be somewhere else, which is different,

believing that somewhere else is better than this moment cause? I I assure you this is the only moment there is this a whole show right now and I've had the money. Ass. I hope they have some more future, but this is the only moment there is really and somewhere else would we want to be, and what does it mean to be in harmony with? What's true now said, to bring this full circle, these ethical guidelines are not. You know things to be acted out in a road manner. There designed to get you into right now into a spontaneous. engagement with life and that's a better way to live, because otherwise, you're stuck in the past of the present, which don't exist, Hallelujah totally yeah, which don't exist,

where they exist in our memory or a fantasy, but our memory and fantasies still right here in this moment right. Ok, so let's talk about right, livelihood. What is right livelihood and why should we take it seriously? again it's the same principles really woven through all of these, which is about what brings harmony, right. What is livelihood that brings us in alignment with the dama, with what free, with the truth, I get very simple, is a very basic stuff right about don't steal it don't sell things that don't belong to. You were How can you function? in your work. In a way that brings more how many to the world that's how I would defy grandpa. they had, and so there is a kind of letting go up the difficult and being truthful in the moment

in our work? Whatever we do, whatever might be, and work is difficult, whatever even dermot teaching it work. People think Your teacher in europe, frightened, you know everything you ve, enlightened and other stuff, and some of that is true, and some of that is just projection. And how to work with the projection is something about right: livelihood not to take it in as if it's the whole truth. in that you weren't, just a human being who still learning and waking up. I'm to be real in my work in giving toxin course. I do a lot of interactive interviewing people were guiding people about their practice and it beautiful, alive practice and teaching is such a great practice and privilege practice really

because I get to talk about the burma, which means I get to learn more about it. But I'm always so grateful to people who were good at what they are doing and do in a way that helpful for me personally, mostly it's about technology, I'm technologically disadvantaged and when people are help and kind and know what they're doing I'm like bowing to them. I so grateful and soda it's what our livelihood offers to the world whether we know it or not. We, doing your job well and you're doing it and its serving people in whatever way, whatever I'd be a waitress treasure, waiter, or whether you're a cook in a restaurant or whether the maid de in the restaurant, whenever it might be, there's something good you

you give to the world with your heart from this, and it doesn't have to be taken now heard from this. It's a doll start from this, which is another piece to keep on waving that slightly cynical view about heart from this, because it's really about adult heart from this heart from this it's based in maturity. So let me restate some of the student. Please tell me if I'm getting it close to right right livelihood. We can understand this at a pretty technical way. The buddha, I think, was quite explicit about you know you shouldn't make a living from killing or selling intoxicants that lead to heedless ness and being a little legalist about those words there, because some might consider plant medicine to be an intoxicant, but I would argue that that's not an intoxicant that two heedless or does harm that it's a medicine don't sell things that are stolen. There are some technical understandings of right livelihood which you touched on, but then there's a holistic understanding which is-

How are you doing what you do? Yes, beautiful that support them. really. How are you doing what you do again? His wine right action is part of everything cause you're, acting in whatever way. at your livelihood is ass. He knew tat. What does it take for us? function harmoniously together, You know I always like to tell people what appreciate them. So I live in San Francisco. There's an old army base in the northern part of this City right by golden gate, bridge called the presidio and was a military base and they keep fixing it up and keeping the buildings going cause? Who is bill you now somewhere, especially around where war too, which is seventy years ago now something like that and they keep fixing them buildings are not always so grateful to these people who were repairing the

so buildings which serve to function for all kinds of good. Non profit organisations and even some for profit organizations, but there. Buildings that keep the beauty of san francisco ass. It is instead of upgrading every you know, and so just yesterday I was there and I thought the guy, and he was so happy to get thank I'm really happy he's doing what he's doing he's taking out one slight, putting a mother and it's beautiful so continuing with a good heartedness of what people do and

if they often don't recognize it coming up. Eugene talks about the difference between being present and presence, and he talks about what has kept him devoted to the eightfold path. For so many years, hey, I'm brook and I'm arisa and were the hosts of wonder a podcast, even the rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and the biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the teen movie icon, Gabrielle union. After spending her childhood trying to assimilate and breaking into a racist industry, Gabrielle thought her success meant someone else had to fail, but when she's faced with hard choices beyond her control, she realizes that the only way to find real success is to come together and build community in our series. Gabrielle union, bigger, badder, better we'll tell you how she shook off

need for perfection found her true self and created the life she always wanted, follow even the rich. Wherever you get your podcast, you can listen ad free on amazon, music or the wondering app in terms of how we do what we do. We talk about the benefit of being present, As I understand it, you make a distinction between being present and presents. I do distinction and very subtle. distinction for a lot of people. It's one of the things that mine from this of the body, while talking and listening will start to reveal. Is presence of mind fondness and the president's needs it bigger than the usual way. We think about just being aware of something it means They are true rating, our consciousness with what we are aware of so

We know what were aware of by becoming while we are aware of and there's a presence. that's bigger than the individual self ego identity and that's what I mean by presence when I say presence and its pointing towards talked about in buddhism, is not self experience or are not tar and die. It's an experience, both have that they often do recognize it, and often where they do recognize is sometimes therein nature and they feel like it. beautiful night and the moon just came up in the Sinai desert. You know all over the place and you're out. In the wilderness somewhere, not even the wilderness in the presidio by the golden gate bridge and people are so. I felt like I was one with everything. That's presents people recognize to pay attention to the presence

That is one with everything there still making it. Yet there are whereof, which is good, but then there is one other step you can take is just relax in to that which is one with everything and you'll start to get a taste of presents some way for in a moment in nature where were experiencing some. Ah, where the self starts to feel smaller, it's great. to notice it, but there's a way to relax into the experience that you would describe as presents yes right, as we ve or toward the end of our time together. Is there a question that I should have asked you, but did not ask you? That's a good question maybe here's one response is given that you been

I've seen for forty years and a lot of practice and give been very devoted to the head for path. What keeps you going with the eight for path? That's got. What's the answer, the sir, I learned from a number of different teachers and from my own experience is it's not over there's more to wake up, and that goes all the way. There's so much to learn. There's so much that's beautiful about being human and having consciousness and about freedom. Freedom is not Oh you get there in your done freedom. Is you get there there's more freedom possible where there's more understanding, there's more awakening, that's password and coupled teachers who supported me I'll, say their name sighed out asia near the who really is so much about Continued learning continued discovery.

Can you understanding and of course, my dunham approach, teacher Hamid only knows a tremendous about, and it's always more there's always more, that his learning and really so many other good teachers that I've met since ok. Well, she has the other person. I wish you could get him on your show, but he's gone now, but he was always learning more. He was always waking up more and it was beautiful if you want a great book from you think you know she said my beginning, my every Few years I read that book and I always feel like. Oh my god, I'm just getting to what he understood. That's what

it's happening, cause the understanding keeps deepening and that's why the path and practice is so beautiful. In my opinion, and in my experience I take both of those things very seriously, and I think there are many things many people will take away from this conversation, but the last thing that you said is particularly poignant and powerful for me, which is that I've been meditating for, a little bit of time, even meditating for quite a bit longer and is still more to learn, is still more to do the still more to get out of it. That's motivate, hence my kind of fund negative are there any resources you put out into the world that people can access if they want learn more from you. After having listened to this conversation, they cannot. gotta dogmas see now have in a bunch of talks, undermine seed, people can listen to they could always joined by sunday eve,

class at san francisco inside six o clock pacific. Time and I teach retreats I'd- love to teach live please come join us. I teach every year at spear rack and come see what happens we'll put links to all of those resources that eugene mentioned in the show notes, go check it out, go check him out, but for now eugene great to meet you and thank you, much for your time good to meet you. Thank you appreciate what you do and keep putting the dark cloud in any way everywhere, thanks again to eugene thanks as well to everybody who works on the show, ten percent happier is produced by degrees. Kashmir, Gabrielle, sacrament, justine, davy, Lauren smith and terror Anderson? Our supervising producer is mirth schneider men and timmy regular is our managing producer scoring mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultra violet pontio and lick thorburn, the great ban islands

I think we'll see you all on friday for about a prime members. You can listen to, Ten per cent happier early and ad free on amazon, music, downloading amazon music cap today or you can listen early, an ad free with wondering, plus in apple pie cas before you go. Do us a salad, tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant.