And it's in the ten percent happier podcast abdalla hairs hates day, it's rangy and fascinating conversation with a tightening of the modern mindfulness seen she's been called the beyond say of meditation its share in salzburg. Ladies and gentlemen, we talk about the case for openness, verses constriction. What is openness, why we want it and how to achieve it? Scuttle out of practical tips on that front,

well to talk about how not to take seriously the stories. You tell yourself whether shame is ever useful, how the most powerful tools, like self compassion, for example, can often seem very, very stupid at first the importance of having a growth mindset, verses of fixed mindset. Why gratitude gets a bad rap and the difference between self centered this and what she calls healthy pride. Then we get the quite personal and talk about a story that has long fascinated me. Why did so many jewish kids from sharon's generation that Numerous get interested in meditation sharon was part of a whole crew called the jew, booze young jewish people, mostly from new york, who found their way over to india and other parts of asia and the nineteen sixtys and seventies learned about buddhist. And then came home and taught it to So many of us without these dubious I would never have got

into the meditation game. Personally, they have really change the world. In my opinion, because some of. became teachers like sharon and Joseph goes, the inject cornfield others became scientists and writers. I'm thinking of people like richie davidson and Daniel Goldman, who wrote books and produce studies that really changed the world, saw meditation and made accessible to sceptics and others and sharon was right there in the thick of it. So she's gonna talk about that and Well, we're added. She gets very personal here about a recent, an extremely harrowing medical odyssey, the second for her in recent years an how meditation helped or get through it. you're unfamiliar with sharon. Just a little background here, she's the co founder of the insight meditation, Society in barre massachusetts, a renowned meditation.

retreat centre where I do most of my retreats personally she's written twelve books. Her latest is called real life, the journey from isolation to openness and freedom. Before we get started with today's epoch, back in February. As you may remember, we tried a new experiment on the pot cast called meditation party and you have loved it. We got tons of feedback my friends and fellow meditated jeff worn and seventy selassie talk to me about the power of being with other people who are also interested in. Exploring training and changing their minds as we established in that episode, meditation friends can be like super friends. People you can take risks with, about some very real shit and when you do that, you can turn the shit into fertilizer for future growth. So now we at ten percent happy have created a way for you to meet and mingle with your own meditation. Super friends through

were calling ten percent happier alive coaching. It's like the podcast has gone from tuesday to three d you can meet other listeners and connect live with some of our favorite living breathing meditation teachers and coaches. We ve got more than fifty group sessions every month for you to connect this week. Our live coaching sessions are focused on the topic of mindfulness in everyday life. You'll get advice from our teachers on how to apply mindfulness, two very specific, in everyday life situations, you'll try those ideas out in your real life and then you'll talk about how it went with a teacher and your new friends. I'm very excited about this. If it sounds good to you, you can check it out at ten percent. Dot com, slash coaching, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dot com, slash coaching alright. Now on with the show meat and seafood from butcher box checks, all the boxes, it's versatile it's delicious and they have,

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Music or wherever you get your podcast share in salzburg. Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much congratulations on your new book, let me start with a very big question based on the subtitle. What is openness? Well. The book was born. Actually, while I was in lockdown as so many people were doing pandemic heights, and I was watching the show on youtube called Saturday night, safer. which was my saviour of the year, because I wasn't going anywhere I think one of the first programmes created done do you know where the writers who never the same roman people contributing- and I found it brilliant and funny in educational and in the course of that, I was reminded that the word Egypt is symbolic

we're a constriction or a narrow place. It means narrow streets and so taking it totally out of geopolitics. It's a journey from constriction feeling trapped to openness and expansion. So the word expansion is maybe not so common, but that's what openness was meaning, be able to breathe freezing options feeling crew aid have not feeling so trapped, and so I embarked on that export, I should like, when do we feel most constricted? Most trap must overwhelmed Wendy. feel most expanse of an open and connected in, and that was really the book. How do you answer that question for yourself? What do you feel most constricted and most open I think very classically you know like I feel most constricted when I'm afraid and not just feeling fear, but when I'm overwhelmed by fear, And when I

see no way out and I've seen through my meditation, often based on the stories I'm telling myself- it's not, the reality of the situation is providing no options. It's like I've shut down. I just see this the way as this is it. This is going to define my life. This is who I am and it's those stories if I get invested in them. Which is a point I keep trying to make in all contexts said something easing of these things sets necessarily problem, its diving into I taking into heart that's much more of the problem and when I feel most expansive is when I am more abiding dwelling in that awareness of rather than the state itself, even in the presence of something like fear? It's a little bit like, I think in secular he'll terms when you remember you're an adult. Now, it's not a question of I will, even though it feels whatever it is. As primal and urgent.

As it might have when you are two years old, now you're an arrow and you can see let that fear arise and pass and hold things in a different perspective. So and then, of course I would say it's, the connection is soo love of any kind which might not be like a relationship with somebody, but if I am feeling connected to a neighbor or something like that, then there's just this moment where I don't feel so isolated and, like I'm holding it just me when you're talking about the states of mind where you feel the most open, free expansive. You listen to one was the wireless bs being aware of whatever is happening in your mind without getting caught up by and the other is feeling connected to, other people or the world meudon use these words, but other words that could be used

my financing compassion. Indeed, this is the pulpits. Well, you know one of the things I challenge myself within running this book was When do we feel most constricted grieved hatred and delusion and buddhists terminology- and I tried to think of in a kind of more and prayer, your immediate ways of describing that so for hatred, for example, I really focused on self hatred which a shame and that just became more interesting as a vehicle for understanding. Broader context of hatred and in that way, ever useful here. You know one runs into proper, What language like in psychology? Also this moral, shame and moral dread that are talked about, which are more like conscience. These things they tend to be specific to

something we did or something we didn't do, because that too is an action when we hold back from saying or doing something and feeling he it when it was wrong when it was hurtful or harmful in this very beautiful line for the buddha where he said. If you truly loved yourself, you'd, never harm another, and so some puritanical mean spirited or self righteous the understanding that when we get reckless, we can overcome we, blow it in some way, then its painful. and born out of some lack of love for ourselves as well and so We feel that it's important to feel that, because that's the road to really determining. I don't want to do that again. You know I want to step up and be more careful and that's different than that more global condemnation of lacerating self hatred like I a mess, and I always will be in things could never change

This is why I really am, and we go on and on and on its come endless setting in western cycle. She is, I learned the words different like they would more use guilt way. We would use remorse and for this psychology and they would use, shame: the waiver who hutus guilt. So, let's take some part, The language but conscience is really important and a sense of possibility is really important in terms of one's ethics and is very important to recognise what is so rarely recognise they think in this world that actions have consequences. That really matters what we do we say, but that sort of wholesale generation worsened it's just not onward leaving in anyway. It's a painful that it's not useful to do one more time. So there's a kind of healthy shame that we might consider conscience or wise remorse.

and then there's an unhealthy shame that is coiled into self obsession. Kind of you say in your book. The brain filled with shame and now you're, referring to the unhealthy unwholesome version of shame cannot learn. Can you tell us more about that Here I think one of the last gatherings I was with people in the same room teaching was February, twenty twenty and California, and was a small group of people in the psychologist in the room, said that line that the brain filled with shame cannot learn. And so then I was unlocked and you know and was working on the book, and I had time to really ponder that and try to think more deeply what it might mean and- and it seems so right that what we're looking for is behavior change. We're looking to see some sense of possibility, like my life

have to be this crummy here this complicated you know like. Telling a million lies to people or heavily secrets, and it's a burdensome like people, people higher or whatever it is it when we really actions have consequences. We feel those concepts Is this: what are we then going to do and what's useful to do so that I don't have to come here again in two months and three months and four months as I'm trying to undertake this process of getting more free, it's like I can't keep doing the same stuff again and again and again and again and not have it be impactful, and so what am I going to do and when it turns out- and this is very difficult for many of us- is that city in so doing in aiding yourself and revealing. Health is not actually can be helpful. If it were helpful, it will be good because we do it. now is very habituated and the thing that does make a difference itself compassion

They were the stupid things ever raised, brave men and yes, it and yet it seems to be perhaps the most powerful tool for actually learning. And making a change and developing a new habit. It's difficult for a lot of people. You know like I have been so many times met with. That's just laziness. You know This is not having any standards of excellence is giving in or something like that. But really, I think if we just look at our experience, it changes from being like the stupidest thing ever to like love. That's interesting! That's challenging it's different. Let me try that, as you have written a prior book, self compassion is not letting yourself off the hook.

It's holding yourself accountable, but the way you would hold a friend or a child accountable not doing what most of us do, reflexively in this culture, which is self lacerate over and over and over again ad infant item. Indeed, it's one of the reasons I think these things are best explored experiential. It cause it's a little difficult to get just intellectually, because it's so different, I guess it s a bunch of very practical things. You talk about in the book for relating to your own ugliness and specific things we can do to, feel, more open nor expansion. Every day, but but We diving into that, and I want to go pretty deep. Let me just go back up too to a high level for a second and asked you about some concepts that are pretty and and and that you establish early in the book. You talk about a fixed mindset, verses, a growth mindset. Can you explain that

Yeah I in my mindfulness terms, we would say let look for the add ons to what has reason. You know a certain, motion like when I feel that fear for exam How do I relate to what's my interpretation of it? If I see it the colonel irredeemable character flow which are used to you know. This is like my inherent weakness. This can be here forever. This is where I really am, but would people say a fairly new. afraid I was, and that's kind of that fixed mine said that this is a character, trade discontent change. This is the hand I've been dealt, and so this is I am, whereas the growth mind state would have a very different interpretation. Very different set of add ons like this is a painful habit. What lessons to be learned, no other ways that I can relate to this approach to the situation that springing up the fear that would be dead

fred, maybe I'm not so alone is part of the human condition. Can I find support an understanding in different ways is the work of Carol dweck. That said, that terminology in my mind, of a fixed, my sitting growth, my satan, I just felt like it fit into this mindful paradigm very well. Just to restate her core thesis of fixed I said yes, I am this way. These are my factory settings. Their unalterable. A growth mindset is actually what we know from the sciences The brain in the mind are training all the bodies, tradable change is possible and all the evidence suggests that nothing is next? I mean nothing literally. Nothing is fixed here they're. So, let's get back to practical stuff about what we can do to have. This growth mindset to feel this open,

that you ve been talking about one of the many practical techniques it you talk about in this book we'll be familiar to close listeners of the show. We had a gentleman on the show several months ago. Who is a teacher to you, as name? So can you remember Shea, and he has something called the handshake which you talk about in your new book? Can you I was a bit more about what it is and why you find it so helpful, like I think, the kind of your frame of all this is that we don't get lost in what some people call toxic positivity or and up leveling every single spiritual, bypassing I'm sure this was Let's say in your mind when you were first hearing these approaches, like is warning sign is saying this is make believe. Yours is pretending. These issues don't exist that pain is not there and everything's fine! you know it's all

good unwilling to expansion towards the wonders of all things, and so that I mean are waking up shaking every morning. You're someone iser innocent, that's very important to state as the larger context, because dealing with. Those constricting habits is not good work, and so the question is: what are we with our fear with our jealousy with our shame. You know with with all of those habitual states, and so that's interest, In oak is what we want to do is abolish them and destroy them. You can go away and the above it for something like that and ass. I can work either. So we are basically in this again comes into mindful is trying to avoid both extremes. One is just getting consumed by some. thing said it defines us that overcomes us and the other extreme is hating it and try push away or denying that place in the middle is middle from us, and so we

connect in some way. That's different to those very states, rather than pretended another and sunny overture has one way of describing them that I have found fun and useful one part of it? Is he closed them? Beautiful monsters? Is you beautiful monsters and he has developed this practice, which he calls handshake practice which has already central mind from his teachings Basically, you're going to hang out with the state. You can be his companion, but As I was saying earlier, you are now the adult you not that terrified child Very survival is at stake. It's sake, you bringing perspective to the moment. Everything changes, this is here. It is real, it hurts, and it's going to change it bring some balance, and some wisdom like this is not, who I essentially am. This is a changing state born out of conditions, and if I

try to push it away, it's not going to help. So let me hang out with her there. You know there are lots of images that are used like invite. You know you're in her credit to dinner,. don't let them have the run of the house, but you don't have to be so freaked out. Your awareness can handle this year where this is bigger or the very classic tibetan image like your thoughts and feelings. Klaus moving through the sky and she kind of land more and that I'm the sky, rather than on that very gloomy. Looking cloud that moving through an he doesn't do handshake in the book. You talk about the fact that you recognise this is an easy and you talk about learning how to open wider our window of tolerance, yeah and that's damn seagulls formulation, the window, tolerance and it's a perfect. You know that the sense of this is what

we work and its confounded. You know cause it's like I've gotta get rid of. This got to hide this is so shameful is, very near at hand you know- and so I'm sorry tell a story here- so often tell it of my early practices, eighteen years old, as you know, and I was very psychologically unsophisticated- have been unfair. for example, you know it's india before anything, and there he was my first retreat, so it was really my first very kind of clear introspection and I was horrified- and I am somewhat famous amongst my very good friends who are still my very good friends for my first retreat, marching up to the teacher s and go again saying I never used to be angry person before I started meditating. Thereby laying blame exactly. I felt a belonged just on him and clearly was his fault. angry. But of course I been hugely angry him.

Never really seen it completely and I could hear until the end of time. It's ok. This is present Can you be with it with more awareness and balance and kindness toward yourself, because russia is up in the beginning, but that's the path you know, that's that's what effect the training was. No, the education was, like eight maybe just for a moment at first but try it again. You known a look at that. That's actually effective, just to say a few things for my own life to give people permission to struggle with this. I've had a couple weeks, it has recently that were humbling visa viii, my meditation or my from this practice. One was body teamwork, ago I was Given a sleep, gummy cannabis gummy for sleep, I've historically had not the best relationship to marijuana. My first panic

ever, were on marijuana and so I was a little reluctant, but I was told this sleep gummy, it's not gonna be powerful. And I saw I ate like a third of it sure enough our later. I started the pack and it was the fourth. Thing. There came to my mind to meditate. the first thing was: let me go wake up my wife and go whine to her, but then I didn't want to do that, because I didn't want to ruin her sleep or my son's. The second was Do I haven't clot of him and there was the third. Thing that I finally just started to do walking meditation and was able to just realized if I'm right here awake right now. There is no problem at all the projection of the other thing I just want to say is that, along those lines that we couple of years ago I was having a pretty uncharacteristic bout of depression. I was feeling really low and I just wanted to get

speed of the feeling, and it was again like the third or fourth thing that popped in my head was to meditate anywhere sale of this, just to hopefully add to the discussion in a way that will emphasize for people that we're not saying this is easy, no thank you and it's definitely not easy- am its powerful, especially like when you talk about and, like you know what came to my mind, was again from the buddhist psychology. Panic is also described just like a high energy state that your energy is too high for the amount of tranquility or concentration present, and so it's not bad. That is a terrible is that the you're, an awful person but you're out of balance. So, let's see about some balance on one of the ways they talk about balance is that when a high energy state is to move through us, is trying to move to a tight constricted plays its can be real

a jumble dress, if you can create space like big space, some have, then the energy can move through as intense as it is, and so that tendency have to examine it in our down around it I can work, but what helps you create space that becomes a personal question like walking out being asked: I do love in kind is for all these areas were listening to sound, listen to music, something which is very personal, but it's not something we necessarily think of sake. Ok, what's going to create a kind of openness and help this just mercer, speaking of In this, there are a bunch of other techniques that you recommend for feeling more expansive on the day to day, let's just take through them and let you old, fourth, one of them,

his gratitude or reflections on good stuff yet, and I think here too, you know, gratitude could have pretty poor reputation in some ways, because I've had a lot of people say to me. Well, that's stupid. You know that being grateful for crumbs and your letting people pressure, abuse. in some way and not treated fairly, and you know what I'm grateful for the little bit god, but I think even the research untold shows that gratitude does a different thing, that it gives us energy for one thing and we feel depleted and just

sort of despondent and like we have nothing going, we're not going to have the energy to seek change or to try to make a difference for anyone else, and so it's an energizing quality and it doesn't lead to being self satisfied or limited it's out of gratitude that people often want to help someone else like pay it forward in some way you feel resourced in a different way, and so those practices are also very simple. I will say also kind of in response to something you imply that I'm very into techniques, not everybody is, but I really appreciate methods and techniques, because it just gave me a path, a sense of a path, and I could go to bed at night thinking yeah. I did write down three things. I'm grateful for or not you know, like. I blew that one. Let me let me just write down three things now, and so I'm just

When a person is supported by structure, and so that would be a very common one, you know, like rate of three things by the end of the day, that you're grateful for it It also is a way of establishing some sense of community. Like had students to retreat, say to me, I found a gratitude buddy and we are going to text each other every day about something that we're grateful for this too. It feels like so yucky to a lot of people, so sentimental are kind of gooey, but but it's actually powerful many of the most powerful things are suddenly, sadly, I'm with you on techniques, so staying on that tipp another technique, you recommended something called yes, This comes out of the world of improv, where you're about to speak perhaps are performing you're following somebody

so rather than trying to tear them down and counter them, you build upon it. Even if you don't agree with it, you kind of say well, this is what's in the room. This is what present in the air and there's this. And so it's an interesting waves of framing a situation in the example that I use something to do with visiting relatives further holidays and you can either place it. You know is Those people were so awful and I had to sit in a room with him the whole dinner. The views her porn or you can say I got to see my grandma and it was context. Some of these are the people who were kind and ass. He, but where are those that Emma

It's not unrelated to gratitude! Now! It's not that it's gratitude. It's like yeah! This is what's in the room. This is what's happening. Another thing on your list here and this I think, will be for some counter intuitive his pride, how his pride helpful way, often think of it in the pejorative. It is often use that way and could be a very difficult quality, but in the sense that I was using it, which also would come out of both positive psychology and british psychology? It has more to do with self respect, and so that would be the sick going back to the question of conscience and morality. If you really look, I think we find that having lots of secrets, lot of Deception, a lot of confusion, complexity in your life. Morally, ethically, is a burden and egypt

Walk into a room kind of more like what are they could say where they now? Where do they think, whereas you can look into a room just kind of resting on the dignity of your being in our your efforts and you're carrying and you did the best you could and that's what we would call pride is just having the kind of self respect must not bad that's good, because otherwise you're always second guessing relationships, if your meditating kind lost in the world of. But what, if I say, listen today live right, people in know or if they find out that I cheated are, and it's a We don't need that. It's something about her how're the radiance even of one's own mind when assessing cluttered with all that stuff and we can live in that way and we should take pride in it at the lots of choices and it's not easy figure it all out

remember what we really care about, and it's not easy, and I did the best I could. Today you mentioned the scientist, Barbara frederickson, who was a researcher. She recommends a nickel, the pride portfolio. What is that it would be That description, you know if we do in fact, as many evolution mary biologists would say, have negative very bias where we tend to move into a situation and see What's threatening what is a warning? What could be wrong? It takes intentionally to see was positive and it just the same way if you're thinking about yourself at the end of the day, hey to you, dwell on or even fixated on, the mistakes made in the things said wronger, you regret. where do you live a little bit of time for what you're grateful for or you look at that I was

the conversation with somebody away, wasn't really paying attention and then I got there. Her recommendation is urging to remember that stuff and to actually with delight- and you know it is difficult for us to because it feels I can see it. arrogance that this my list of good qualities, but it's really just a way of paying it. Pension and a broader fashion, because we're not necessarily a medically recognised stuff and draw the link me again- and I apologize if I'm being obtuse here but draw the link again,

in between having this kind of pride, this healthy pride and being open with Barbara fredrickson has a theory which is called the fredrickson theory of broaden and build, which is that when we cultivate positive states like loving kindness, she she's a big living finnish researcher. It's not just to like be pleased with ourselves or be self satisfied. It's because it functions in two ways. One is to broaden our perspective when, where full of fear- and it's overwhelming everything narrows- was shut down, we can't see options. We can't connect and loving kindness is the opposite. Energy right were connected were open and the other wade functions functions is the build which, which it gives us a sense of inner resource. So we

feel so exhausted, and so depleted and deficient and meeting adversity or just enjoying a day so broaden and build both. So those states like loving. Kindness, like equanimity like gratitude, function to broaden our perspective, openness and also build the sense of resource, and every time I talked barbara I question is, is it seems so spooky to me but they found that people doing something like loving kindness or any of these cultivation states will actually have their peripheral vision, change and get better and each time. I think that's so we're that really true and every time she says here. That is true

running that the possession, but then, in my book he shifted in your, but I hope you get many resources for this covers h in and others coming up share in salzburg talks about more for tips for creating openness. Why so many jewish people of generation got interested in meditation history of this called? U and her content? in that no journey is

collectively, linear, hey everyone, I'm patrick, why my host of tides of history, the podcast that covers thousands of years of recorded history, taking you back in time and placing you in the lives of those who came before us with five seasons and over two hundred and fifty episodes? There's something for everyone. If you're interested in the iron age check out the entire season devoted to that europe, which explores myriad topics, including classical empires like the neo assyrians, the venetians and greece's dark age, or listen to our deep dives in a renaissance, ITALY, the invention of news, the protestant reformation witch hunts and even the black death, and if you prefer more contemporary history, listen to our episode about the unparalleled rise of capitalism with your history, buff or just have a passing interest. Tides of history will fully with wisdom and wonder

everything that came before follow tides of history. Wherever you get your podcast, you can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wonder, react as we continue to serve. Give people practical tools here. One of the lists, if you include in your book, has actually less that somebody else made these seven rules for a happy day. Can you tell us who wrote this? Listen? Why you like it so much. Her name is zeinab selby and I met her when she was working with the organization she had founded, which women for women, international searches are really impact for and effective organizer an activist, and she also talks about getting better out, and never feeling shoes doing enough in kind of christ, burning in going to zen retreat even if she knew very little about meditation retreats and seeing so much of her own, psychology in that retreat and then

through the years. You know coming to see that there are things she has to put in place to have a more balanced life, because there's no other way to sustain the work. You know you just can go on forever and just giving in giving and never getting that sense of in a back to Barbara this, as if in a resource getting replenished and renewed and serve with her list includes things like drinking water. being in nature versus like seeing a tree, you known taking a moment and appreciating it and the often a lot in people's lists about rest, and I could oppression that you know. If I were making a list to it, I have to include remember to rest him in this terrible nite owl and I can easily be up till two three in the morning and is that good he's an often so dear my list, meditating every day, even if its walking, even if it's just washing dishes to stopping for a few moments,

at any rate, if not longer, barbarossa did some research on people doing not form sitting or walking meditation but like washing the dishes is their practice drinking and things like that and found that those things were very impact well, even though for me I would say that that becomes kind of more. Like a story, I tell myself if I have it also sat, formerly. every day, it's like yeah, you can be mindful whatever you're doing you don't have to worry about it and I'm just not going to do it unless I've also sat. So you know, having some period of sitting is really important for me. Me too, people don't want to hear that, but just of two year? Two people that saying is true for everybody there are few other,

things on her list and they include eating healthy food, doing something with the arts anything you know like playing piano connecting with family and friends, and then something called making an appointment with your heart which, as you Imagine if not the language I would choose. But what do you mean by that what does she mean by that? Yes, what do you think she means by that? Well, I would naturally think. that loving kindness, maybe for oneself, maybe for others. even just remembering the value like. I went to a dinner once which we used to call me four sony in dinners and call it now and something else. But if it's like a small. Dinner party, where you don't speak to the person next, you just kind of chit chat, but it is a question that everyone gets an advance in that everyone dresses that question

so. The whole table in the question was something like talk about a time. Their compassion was really important. Fear and what was intriguing about the question was that it didn't say when you were compassionate towards someone else, spare yourself for someone else was compassionate towards you, where you witness an active compassion, it just was very general and open, and so people answered it in every way, and so for me, like checking in with my heart, would be a question like that said: it wasn't too narrow because it be that I witnessed something that has nothing to do with me. You know, and it just inspired me and reminded me, look we can treat other people that way. I look at what it looks like when somebody lights up, because somebody thanks something like that or might win that someone

kinds me. I remembered to be kind to someone else and sir, I think that's a beautiful thing to ask oneself whatever your most cherished value is what happening around that this day or this week, something like that and dinner. That reminds me there is something I wanted to get back to at the very beginning of this. Recession? You talked about the pass over savior be annual dinner. That gives have to celebrate pass over I'm curious what your relationship is to judaism now and also I ask that question to see. If I might get you think about. Why so many young jewish people your generation, where over to india, got interested meditation and then built their lives around you, Joseph Goldstein, jack cornfield bridge

davidson Daniel goldman mark Epstein, Sylvia Bornstein, tara, brock, brok, John Cabot's, in all like. Chewy, jewish last names. What what was that? What in the water? What was going on at that time? I think there was a kind of striking movement and people have different answers. You know, of course nobody actually knows, but the most common sense answer, for many of us are the severe surfing sixty. in years older than I am so that's like half a generation anyway, the kind of education or relationship most of us had to judaism was very ceremonial like I grew up in part with my grandparents, and they were quite observant, but I didn't understand anything of any depth. You know why can we turn on the lights on the sabbath? It was really only the sailor that have any kind of residence for me and those different was warned him,

of a family, a look of a family, and if you wanted to go deeper, just wasn't it wasn't done. You know and many commentaries christianity or judaism, have said that one of the contributions that contemporary buddhist, more meditation and then wait has made like my foes meditation is made. Is that these other religions themselves of could have gotten revitalized, because at the time the point from like family practice in our or like the seder or whatever one might be doing in terms of ritual the point was where to admire saints. By you, know like seeds of old and if he said, I'm gonna see have certainly I can be here now, those ridiculous either just wasn't wasn't done, and yet you know that, in contrast to

they might teach him and injure in india who once said to me, the buddhas enlightenment solve the buddhist problem. News of yours, which are so I heard as you can solve your problem. you can solve the problem of the confusion in their happiness. That's brought you here indeed, a beginning You can do that, but he just didn't existed. Judaism, you're just tell the same story of his experience going to rabbi and there's just why of and today kind of claiming of liberating spiritual Only for oneself is sitting at the heart of buddhism. Is that could see it or something is right. You know we look at the buddha, pursues a human being and so were seeing something better our potential but I was never taught that about rabbi enough when you of ukraine in some centuries ago The time is a wave, and I want some journalists. Some data right,

the story of that wave, because I think it's too so interesting. like the vietnam war, was going on. There is tremendous dissatisfaction of the country's trees, anguish. The drugs is, beatles had gone to india. It's just like. It was a very interesting time to leave the country of the u s and go to a whole other place and experience a whole. the culture? And so, if you only journalists who like how to tackle storytelling, how are you story I wanted The guy who undertakes that story. I was taking a walk recently with our mutual friend any government whose, but on the show many times, perhaps best known for having written a book called emotional intelligence and He's working on a book where he's gonna talk about some of his personal experiences, which of course it overlap with yours. and he- and I were talking about the fact that somebody should write them. Your story, and I want to do that. I just have a long to do list. I will. Let me keep legit

you better, because I would love it nearly danny, as we call it really can brought me to my first retreat that's. It is best known for miles aside from emotional intelligence. I mean I heard him give it talk in delhi. Is this yoga conference and he mentioned he was going to retreat at the end of it, and that was a retreat going. I just left burma and had just started. Teaching in india is a kind of process best now for being very direct like it's a how to stuff of meditation, and I felt that this sort of looking for it. So I followed him along with a fifty other people too, but Gaia, which is where the retreat wasn we Joseph had already been practicing for about four years. So from Joseph side there was like an invite. isn't upon his western people. Inspired by the endowments come to this retreat and ramdas us was there's a student

the latter conversations and in setting Joseph because he could Your demonstrated meditate ilsa. This gathering elevate stars. The one thing you didn't reference You were talking about why all these jewish kids get so interested in buddhism is the cultural tendency toward neurotic autism and anxiety. I think that that wealth- that's for sure, but this isn't it exclusive, like people say to me something rather than they say, that's just catholic guilt and I think catholic guilt, like ooh you've got guilty. I think it's also to look deeper today, cause it's an interesting question, Many of us were one generation away from lots of family member

being killed in the holocaust. There was a lot of trauma, she's never spoken about, of course, but there and all the attendant kind of inheritance. Of that there's a lot there to look at. Especially interesting, I think the more we learn about the reality of generational trauma. I'd mentioned her before on the show, but by executive assistant, my colleague, Amy Breckenridge is an amateur genealogist and I wanted to be her first client for what I hope will be a genealogy business that you run. So I asked her to do some looking into my family tree and eat on the jewish side, I'm half jewish half wasp, sir Annie hall mix and have the jewish eye. There are these kids emigrated from attacking sixteen seventeen years old came over to escape the oppression of the Jews in russia and, like nineteen o, six, nineteen o seven that came over by themselves and just try.

To make it in america with all of this trauma that wasn't the holocaust, but it was bad in russia and the lady teen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds forced conscription, parents I need to get their kids out of it by mutilating, the kids and the Jews returning on each other. I was a really bad scene over there as they escape that trauma and then there's one grandfather of mine who came to america, old had a grocery store did a bunch of things and then basically became a crook You found a newspaper article of about him having been a basically a corrupt, bail bondsman who took his relatives homes and put them up collateral for a con man and he got busted and killed himself and you'd I've reference the suicide before, but I actually subsequent her at having reference that in the past. I guess I saw this news are about the guy? In so doing this kind of fear based hustling it gets.

it's handed down in the genes- is not, of course exclusive to the Jews by any stretch, but it's it's real and I do think it can get people interested in things like buddhism. Oh yeah, absolutely I mean there's there's a there and some people would say canada. Premium month, study and understanding life, and things like that and coupled with true sir Henry mix yeah pretty powerful motivator one thing you say this gets me back your book, we're talking now, but the beginning of your journey an eighteen year old who went to india after having endured a lot of trauma as a kid and were now chatting several decades later, and it gets me back to a line from your book. That was quite resident for me.

Personally, and the line was no journey is exclusively linear. I'll just say something personal before I get you to talk about it as giving a talk via zoom, and I mentioned on the talk that the reason why I wasn't there in person is that I had been going through a bout of claustrophobia and panic and I couldn't get on the plane. I actually had to get off the plane, and I've mentioned that part of the story before or on the show, but when I said that to this assembly audience one of the women in the audience raised her hand and said well, if you're, MR meditation and you're having panic. How am I supposed to feel- and I wish I had no journey is exclusively linear in my back pocket. As an answer you know, of course life is Can I happen you, no matter how much meditation you do you're still subject to aging illness and death

So is everybody around you an awfully meditation, we'll just help you handle all of the mess better and that that is what happened with me. I'm way, less cost wrote the great now that I was at that moment so again just now. I hurled a lot of words in your direction, but can you talk a little bit about the journey, not being linear, and I think I understand the person's comment to, but I think it's one of the ways that we're not really fair to ourselves and not really just to ourselves, because if we were looking at a good friend who has been We see lots of changes in doing so much better than they they down and they pick themselves up where they let others help I'm up. Maybe they never had that ability the leaden help before something really positive about starting over an and being able to have some resilience and having I'm interlude, that save.

being overwhelmed last an afternoon rather than a year. You know, like all the things that that do happen for you're looking at a friend, we would say congrats. patience he would really really, but but within ourselves that occurs when merciless in way goes back to the window of tolerance is not so much what's happened but can we have a kind of openness and pray and balance and kindness in the face of what's happening, maybe not right away, but it comes back sooner than it used to then its processing process. Can we be with what's happening? Can we work its way maybe learn some things about how to deal with it or whatever, but we're this idea that you know we can have the breakthrough experiencing airlines. Just get me some, from then on. It. Doesnt seem to work that way. My friend, my colleague, silly bursting, came up with this phrase in terms of the eight full path which is so classical and buddhists teach

She called the eightfold dot because we just go round and round and round and round, and we go up We go down and that's what's real and people often say to me things like her stay mindful all day long at work or how do I keep the level of concentration? I gotta retreat and I always says I'm gonna happen. You argue yell your kids, Ghana, you're gonna, forget, said three in the morning- I you're gonna inner whatever, but you will recover sooner and your baby recover differently and you'll treat yourself differently over. Time, and you know, of course he eats and to have your panic attacks in public. So maybe it's a little free lots of things. We'd rather not admit to you know. You know, that's changed for some people to reveal vulnerability and it's sort of like the surround the environment with which we hold these things, that's what changes and that changes everything, you know something serving his last long.

time and less much shorter time and its really painful, that's different. Then it taking over your month- and I do feel like in the great trajectory of self compassion for many of us, the person we are the least cost to his herself coming up. Sharon talks about him. A recent experience in the health care system, quite harrowing how she leaned on her meditation practice in some very difficult moments, annual talk about learning the incredibly hard skill of hanging out with somebody else's pain, especially when there is nothing you can do about it. You recently had a pre terrific experience that I had a chance to talk about. I saw you in person a few weeks ago. Where you landed in the nether region

the american healthcare system in ways that you described to me as being I think you used the word re traumatized. So I wonder if you could describe that experience to the extent that you're comfortable at all oh, how you handled it, because I think that's really relevant to this discussion yeah. I ends up in the hospital with a diagnosis of pneumonia needing oxygen and through the variety of circumstances who is an expert? It's it's a sailor. Is being in. That facility was serve more combination of a night, nursing homewards place where people would go who had no other place ago. Who were section? now people ravings of an eye for drugs. I didn't see doctor, for example, that the whole time I was there and so it was very traumatize. Impressive rose is really scary experience. The bed

I have in the chair or sitting in each day were a wired, If I got up removed wrong, asylum would go off, and this voice was don't get up, don't get up, don't get up, and you know these places are quite understand these days and in other nurses, nursing A's were wonderful people and they were really trying, but the system was such that was just it's awful. You know they were doing the best they could in those circumstances, but it was almost like being restrained, and you know I grew up with mental the old father, so that speed actor of ending up in an institution was always somewhere my consciousness. That is the most terrifying thing that could happen from one day when I woke up, I thought her Were I am, you know it happened and then, through a variety of means,

in great efforts of my doctor in new york, and things like that. I was released to go back home and you know my process is really always very similar in that it's being able to sit with the feelings and be with them fact handshake, not feeling so alone, knowing son urging, for example, examples doing prayers for me, you known people cared in that I wasn't you'd be abandoned in his place. In a later, I found that people were plotting to kids me if, like rent an ambulance, take me out it'll, be like a real hospital and it's really the same thing and it's something I always have said to people when they've asked you know, even when she was interviewed for something once the question was, how would mindfulness be helpful in a time of total crisis and

it will don't wait? Just don't wait. You know people say I know, there's nothing happening, I'm fine is boring to sit. What should I do it and I say just do it during in the ordinary time dude in the easiest time to when things seem boring, because the day may come when even really need it, and that's what I felt like the same old tools and, let's me you know, there may be people who have different kinds of resources? You know in terms of psychotherapy or trauma work, and I think that's great they're not mutually exclusive, no they're, definitely not mutually exclusive, and who knows what else? I will experiment with cause. What a wonderful thing you know that these tools exist. I've said this before, but I'm very sorry. This happened to you, it syncs uncontrollably and the suck at baseline for anybody to be

stuck marooned in a place like that. But given your family history and how traumatize yours a child, when your father had to leave home and be institutionalized into find yourself in a similar situation, that is you know I I don't understand what it's like, but it seems negative. The very least and that you can bring the tools to bear in extremest is really the hardening there to be too because they exist, and it so easy to think this is like a happier challenging, but all my friends are doing an airport ever in output is so much deeper than that conversation with my therapist earlier today and we were talking about how often- and this is eventually going to get us back to openness and your book, often when people

go through horrific things. It can sensitized them. I was in an elevator with my therapist today. Is that what we do we go right, elevators together, so that I can get used to being confined, and we end up just talking about a lot of stuff, turns out. He went to high school with reggie davidson actual currently have an great guy disturbs. I want them to protect his confidentiality, but I really welcome and One thinks we're talking about today. Is that actually one of the upside for me of this resurgence of panic is that I feel a bit more sensitive to the anxiety of people around me, and then we started talking I have my wife when she was eight. She had a benign brain tumor that had to be removed, and it is largely because of that that she became a physician and how what we might call negative or unpleasant or unfortunate or bad things that happen to us, can lead to this kind of openness that you talk about in the book and that you've talked about in this conversation one of the

You talk about in the book and this might be a good place to closed, because we ve talked a lot about how we relate to ourselves. But the point is, of course, that once in or whether as balmy or we can have improved compartment visa, the others and in the book you talk about learning, to be o k and sit. if somebody else's pain, even if and especially, if there's nothing you can do about whom do you agree with it, connection? Are making here this is all makes out of my being cogent. I do see it I mean. Sometimes we having interpret compassion is fixing something in our being able to fix person or the situation. In other, see it that way really anymore, but being with and seeing what emerges out of there being with, I think, is more of a nature

compassion is also not hierarchical, like I've got it all together and I'm gonna bestow this kindness on you were down there you know say: ok here we are, and so the need to fix it needs the saviour would be a kind of narrowness. You know it's like being now a role, definition and fixation, and also shielding yourself from being equal in that situation, just sort of more like I'm, the fixer. In contrast to here, we are. together. Let's see what happens, and I had not known about your wife and yet If we really new everyone story, I think it would be if we really powerful, because no one is invulnerable. Really so there's that- and I think there's just the sense of connection- is opening and

The story that I tell in the book is about being in new york. I was teaching all day and I was supposed to have dinner with a friend further uptown, so I got into town. See? And then she wrote me said you know I'm not feeling very well. Maybe we should call it often, so I said to the taxi driver or not We have ten more will come down to in the skirt downtown, which is where I lived, and I wrote something to my friend like you know Really big germs going on around I'm sorry and not feeling well sure back and said: oh, it's not physical! I just had a really hard day- and I don't want to burden you with my suffering- and I wrote back- and I said no- a buddhist- I'm not afraid of sitting with someone suffering. So she said- ok come so then I said to the cab driver. Rather dramatically turn around going uptown. After all, she. Never done before it also wee we narrower in fixate, when we feel we have to be the same.

here. We also narrow and fixed, say where we feel I've got to hide this. You know this has to change two to reveal, or no one can tolerate. The scene alone could bear this so from both sides. You know who d because falling into that habit and openness would look like the kind of sheer connection as such a pleasure to talk. You always and, as I say, congratulations on the new book, speaking of which, before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of your new book where they can get it any other resources you ve put out there that might be support seeing that people could be interested in please plug okay. Actually, I I wanna say I like this book. I like it a lot you know sometimes when I think it's my twelfth book. I think, but I feel like one thing I did this book was in theater we'd say I broke the fourth wall I felt like I was addressing people very directly in different ways: called real life.

the journey from isolation to openness and freedom published by flat iron, and I was moved by seeing the different sources and psychology and so on that have really been nourishing my understanding yeah, so that the book should be available everywhere. As I say, congratulations, you made many many many contributions to improving the human situation and you would go with another one. So thank you share in salzburg. Thank you. So much Thanks again share in salzburg. Thank you as well to you, for sending you got a moment ago. a rating or review that stuff really helps. And finally thank you to everyone. So hard on the show with getting incredible team, ten percent happier is produced by gabrielle sacrament dj We're Justine davy, Lauren smith and terror Anderson. Our supervising producer is

research, nitrogen and can be regular. Is our managing producer scoring and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio and nick thorburn of one of my favorite bands, islands dorothy thinking it was you all on wednesday, four, a brand new episode, a prime members. You can listen to ten percent happier early and ad free on amazon, music down. the amazon music tat today or you can listen early and ad free with one replace in apple pie cas before you go to a salad tell us all about yourself by completing a short survey at wondering: dot com, slash servant,

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