This the ten percent happier podcast dan harris- everybody most of us come into the world with these suspicion that we are at the center of the universe, this, completely natural. This self preoccupation- often lead to unhappiness in the form of compulsive rumination, ruining planning, wallowing comparison, etc. As I like that the view is so much better way. You pull your head out of your ass, but this, of course raises the perennial question. At least perennial question here on this show how to actually do this, my guest today has a very clear proposal for how we can stop living. What she calls artificial lives, shave down on our inborn self. Centered is not for nothing. She believed

Her proposal has the added benefit of perhaps helping to save the planet, care Our strong is a legend she's, a former none who has become one of the world's leading thinkers, on religion, particularly the monotheistic once she is such best sellers as a history of god, the battle for god, Islam, and buddha. Her latest book is called sacred nature. Many People have criticised organised religions and primarily the monotheistic ones, for promote The idea that we humans have dominion over nature and can do whatever we want in her book Armstrong aims to set the record straight, in particular by studying buddhist taoist and hindu texts show that many of the world's great religions and contemplative traditions saw now you're as wholly as a powerful path towards us. Keeping the prison of the ego. She argues that cycling and protesting. Well enough,

are not enough to save the planet. We actually need to revise our relationship to the earth and ancient religions. as provide a road map. This fascinating and wide ranging discussion. We start with nature and she has tons of practices. You can try using nature as a way to make yourself happier, but we also go quite broad in this. view it as a non believer. I especially What hearing her talk about house conceives of god and the holy at this point in her life spoiler alert it's a sceptic, friendly view that she now espouses anyway. I let her whole with on that we'll get started with Karen Armstrong. Read after this I'm clia stagnating and in part of the customer support team here at ten percent happier, one of the best parts of my Job is hearing from our subscribers, who sometimes just right to say how they appreciate what they get from the ten percent happier at

here's one of those users talking about how she's the apt to get through the pandemic. I'm a ten percent happier subscriber and I want to share a little bit about my experience. I ve been a registered nurse for forty years in the last two years, with the most challenging of my career, the temperature happier up, my faith in my family have helped to survive the madness. I will continue to directly since families and co workers to give mindfulness try the inner peace you find. surprise even the most sceptical you try ten percent happier for yourself with a free, seven day, trial today, download temper, happier wherever you get your apps blitz. you love sports, but are also a busy person. You

I know the latest sports news, but don't want to sit through a two hour. Podcast part. If we're talking about you right now check out the new podcast from wonder. He believes starting five is available now on apple podcasts, amazon, music, spotify or wherever you listen, there's a lot more to drew more than you'd. Think hollywood's, favorite good girl had a very rough beginning, but now drew's done it all and she's. Not yet listen to drew barrymore rewriting the story are laid a season of even the rich on apple podcast, amazon, music or the wondering app join, wondering plus and apt to binge all four episodes early, an ad free Karen Armstrong, welcome to the show. Thank you very much So, let's start with your your latest work, I'm curious! How did you arrive at this subject? Well,

had been going to write a long book. I returned to write rather long fat books about the way the world religions have viewed nature over the centuries. And I deal with all the world religions. The main ones- and I expected it to take the general- is sort of form that many of my yes books had. But then I had a zoom cool rather like this. With my publishes and editors who had read my proposal and they said, look, we want something quick and now because nature is a hot subjects, in fact, is a very difficult time for us ecologically said they said big, something short and the successful to people, and that gives something to do because you know that people here about the environment and how dangerous it is. We often feel a bit paralysed. We know we ve all got to stop

flying around the earth, because it's bad for the environment and yet we still doing it We know we should be using public transport rather than jumping in our cause all the time, but we are not doing it and when environmentalists talk about me, it's often in rather scientific terms that doesn't move us emotionally necessarily, whereas it seems to me that the world religions have always seen nature as paramount here have to exclude two of the major world religions and that's judaism and christianity. Instead of seeing the sacred the divine, in nature like the other world religions, hinduism, confucianism, taoism, etc. They saw the divine in the events of history, such as the exodus from Egypt the life of Jesus Christ, but it certainly the greek orthodox, who are also christie- this, of course, they developed from the very start

a sense of nature because they had along pagan history of nature, with Aphrodite goddess of nature, who was in every single flower every single tree, every single river, but invisible, and that's the kind few of nature that the world religions all had they do. And see a god in the heavens, as the judeo christian religions do, they saw instead a sacred force that is present in its physical and spiritual. It's beyond our grasp, but we experience it is. what brings us things into life. It's what makes they seasons grow. It's a sacred force in china. They called it cheap in india. They called it brahman orator, but the sacred force produced the god

it produced human beings. It produce man, since it was good, in continual operation, and it was very much revered. This was interesting. I thought because we in the west have moved away from that, instead of seeing as sacred as divine I seen it as a resource, something that we can master and don't let's fool ourselves Science has been marvellous in many ways in medicine. For example, I myself have benefited much from admits. But we all know, as I've said in very dangerous straits, we have to do. something about our behavior. So I tried to do something that's where we could introduce some of the older customs bit by bit into our lives step by step sum of ten steps, as it were, so that we could start

aware of nature, because you know how often have you been to a place of extreme beauty and is the sea side or a mountain mountainous region, and you notice that people either got their headphones, and are listening to some musical having Simon conversation or. king, along by the seaside, chattering on the phone to some one else or their taking photographs of nature. They lose their. Take lots and lots of vote crops, but instead of seeing the nature itself and being in touch with it, they prefer a virtual copy of it for themselves, and so, by which I mean trying to do, is to make us wake up to nature again and make us.

look at it and see it as a force, a beauty, something that we are entirely dependent upon and which, unless we treat it with reverence, we are in dangerous trouble. I wanna dive quite deeply into the ten steps the ancient customs that we might integrate into our lives now. But before I do so, a few surf matter, questions or framing questions, one of them You think I'd be safe to say that in the face of the perilous is that many of us feel in the face of the climate crisis, given the necessity for structural change. I think some of that powerlessness makes sense, nonetheless. Would you say that if we were to follow the them that we will dive into if we were to enter. some of these ritual into our lives that we would? whether or not worry impacting the larger picture, we would be improving our own lives in the process.

Yes. Certainly, I think, because when living a very art official way, as I have just said, instead of seeing nature, we prefer a photograph of it and I think it's quite interesting. Be british. Romantic poets were very concerned about this, because it was ready getting to become quite extreme during the nineteenth century and, what's fascinates me is that words were who began life ass, a young boy absolutely filled with joy of nature. He lived in the lake district up in the north of england, extremely beautiful part of the well, and he was happy lately ecstatic about nature, but that faded ass he grew up at he had to teach self again how to look at nature properly out to look at nature differently and in his great poem tintin, b. He says I've learned to look at nature differently, not as I did when I was a child, but hearing oftentimes, he said

still sad, music of humanity nor harsh nor grating, though of ample power to chasen and subdue, and I have felt presence that disturbs me with the joy of elevated thoughts, a sense sublime of something far more deeply interfused who dwelling is the light of setting sons and the rout ocean the living air and the blue sky, and in the mind of man, emotion and spirit That impels all thinking, things all objects of all thought. and rose through all things. Now that is a perfect description of what the chinese culture

What's the indians cool brahma, an archetypes way of looking at nature, that seems to be natural to us and that we can, as words with, did, learn to look at two different it and you notice he uses the word something he won't say. This is god, because ah notion of god in the west has become very different from the ancient world. We see god in the Heavens. Our father art in Heaven as a distant reality. Acts simple, as I said in the monotheistic religions, in certain historical events, but this idea of nature being infused with the divine as well with put it, is returning to a more natural way of looking at the world which we can start to learn ourselves, because it's something you call it

don't use the word something in a very loose way. When that we say what we having for suffered tonight, alighted of eggs or something, but his saying it's some thing that he won't define because there's no word in, I bought an english vocabulary to say what it is that you see. We need ourselves to find that something and before we dive into some ideas for finding the something There is something one other, sir, a larger question busy you mentioned earlier that All the world's religions, as far as you can tell, had a reverent view for nature, except the Jews in the christians in you, said that they saw the footprints divine and historical events, but what do you think was going on that the Jews in the christians were overlooking nature too much time in the desert and feeling pissed off about that. What happened then again, we're not sure, we're not sure how long they spent in the desert. So the desert is a place where,

you get a lot of nature, its not just us at a sterile place, of course, alive with nature. No, we just went our scriptures are entirely different and if you notice you have god making the world and its separate and in that they opening of genesis the first chapter of the bible and, at the end of it, says to Adam and eve now, take the earth and subdue it and the great philosopher, I couldn't in this writing in the seventeenth century said that was gods command got told Adam that he had to subdue the earth and make human beings the master of the universe, and he said Adam failed to do that. He sinned, but his now up to us here in europe to us, christians, too, do nature in this way to make it serve us to make it serve our ends and we

I've done that and in many ways it's been very effective for us because, as I say, just look at modern medicine and what it has achieved, but the subjugate Some of the earth has become endemic to us and is quite unlike the reverence that was very carefully cultivated in the the wild faiths. Are they still have that in places like india or china? There still very concerned about nature in their traditional way, even though, of course, they have adopted Scientific knowledge and practices to great effect themselves. They haven't lost. Step of this is quite alien to us. Since the seventeenth century, then you have a day caught, for example, who said that the whole? purpose of science will be that we will no longer feel wonder when we look at nature. He said it will soon be necessary for us when we look, the cloud to say. Oh what,

beautiful. How strange no we'll know exactly what that cloud is, and god he's that created the world, set it all up, and then he retired to Heaven and the things of nature. He said when just like the new machines that were being produced in europe at that time, cox and fountains new things that we could develop and make for ourselves, but they were not things that fills us with one and with reverence, and then you have newton who saw gone as rather is blown up version of himself, a great scientist, he said a god was obviously very well killed a geometry and mechanics, but this is pairing down the divine and seeing it as a sort of peace. in reality, rather like ourselves, the things of nature as objects that are for our benefit, instead of seeing divine as absolutely some

that you can never define because it everywhere in everything utterly presence in everywhere and in everything, including the clouds, said, the sun and the moon. We ve lost that sets of wonder and that's what I think we should try to reawaken in ourselves, because our world, magnificent, even here in london, you can't see it, but I have a tree just in the middle of london, a beautiful tree ad in the winter, particularly. I look up for my desk over there and look up and see the street and it's how it changes every day, how it's got a life of its own. Not lifelike as we mustn't sort of human eyes.

I chair, and make it out to be it's sort of like ourselves writ large. That tree has a mysterious it a life of it's own or the existence of it's own. That is sacred and something that we should revere, and so one of the things I suggest that we do is just take ten minutes a day. Looking at nature, take off your earphones turn off all your technology and just let Just ten minute today, to start with, let the sounds. Look at the birds have busy: they are the insects, the flowers he's the leaves, the vitality of nature, just learned to look at it just ten minutes, and then you can increase it day by day, but just bake ourselves, aware of our surroundings, which we are utterly dependent. We are killing ourselves as we kill the environment, We live in a city. This is just a profound point

this if we live in the city and where's tempted to tell ourselves. Oh, we can't look at nature ten minutes a day. We will live in nature parks, suffice, pox, exactly parks, have and, as I say, I mean it's just a tree and odin retreat in a road that you can start looking at it. I'm lucky because I've got a little garden and I can sit out there and watch the birds, com and the flowers at combat, not nobody has that, but there are places, as I say, the parks, the rivers gotta canal at the bottom of my street. lovely walking along the canal and seeing all the wild birds fly round the canal and the traffic retreat submit this all around us and you don't have to go and look at a place of absolute supreme beauty. You gotta learn to look

a perfectly ordinary garden or a perfectly ordinary tree and see that it has a life of its own that is utterly mysterious to us and utterly precious just learn to look at it as he would lead to look as an individual person and know the mystery of that person for those listeners who, like evidence, chaser for anything that might come out of the mystical or religious world. Previous guess, on the show of talk quite a bit about the volume, was of data. We have to support the beneficial physiological psychological impact of exposure to nature on the human animal there's a bit of aggression, because your comments are making me think about a conversation I had recently with the new friend of mine, a reasonably good friend of mine, shut up to you, are. We were sitting in my back yard and educated bit of nature. Around and Josh was telling me about how a friend of his had given him a mite ro dose of suicide

or magic mushrooms and he had been sitting in his back yard at after having ingested. This house's Andy the trees started breathing back at him and I thought will give. That sounds marvellous and you don't need that to have a sustained profound. Relationship with nature on the regular. Yes- and I think you don't need it, but I think we need to accustom ourselves to looking at nature. That's the thing, just as I say we in ourselves away for social media for a few moments and just let the sounds and life of nature. That's all around you. Even in my little garden, you see insects, birds coming in and out of everything busy and just be aware of these wills around us. Just build up a habit, just festival ten minute today increase it added, because, a part of your life. You become aware of it when you're, just walking down the street and seeing the extraordinary trees

squirrels running across our road first thing in the morning. This life of nature is all around Thus, we need to just make ourselves aware of it is you're, describing what the taoists referred to his quiet sitting. It's the confusion is actually rather than the dust quiet city with. Fourth, especially the confusions was exactly what is is sit quietly. You dont have to sit in the yoke its position with an upright back cross leg. Do anything just sit in a comfortable position in a comfortable chair we see it or on the ground and then just open your mind and heart and is, to the sounds and things you even the smallest things coming aware of that. Just for ten minutes a day, and you become aware that nature is a socratic. Did the chinese for example- said that the golden rule, which all

religion, see as essential to their morality, never treat others is would not like to be treated yourself. fusion said now. You must apply this to nature. To not just other human beings, but you must treat nature as he would wish to be treated yourself, and some of them went to such lengths that they found it impossible to cut the brass because they said the grass as a life of its own, that might be extreme, but they bade themselves. Look at the things of nature, with the same kind of reverence they cultivated

with what they saw other human beings. Now we don't even look at other human beings with great reverence, very often, where often in the russia here in that and pushing ourselves sudden onto buses and hurrying along and not noticing, but to spend time being aware of others at other things. The chinese said that things of nature are our friends and our companions, and we have to sort of cultivates that says that we use the word thing: don't we as as of something that is not really alive? You know this glass, for example, Well, we got a thing, but it has no life of its own for the confusions. However, the word thing does not mean that at all, it is full of life full of its own sexuality and, as one confucian said, each one has

principle of its own that you must study as carefully as scientists study that the make up of things and recognise it as they are our brothers and sisters and we depend upon them as they dependable, us for survival. I'm just curious how far you personally take the golden rule as a pretence, nature, nature, there's a wonderful! I think I quoted in the book in the eighteenth century: wonderful novel, tristram shandy, where uncle toby, who is a very uproarious great and wonderful figure,

It's been sitting at lunch and a fly has been buzzing around and being frightfully irritated all throughout lunch, and what finally uncle Toby manages to trap that fly, and then he takes it out. Saying dear fly, I'm not going to kill you. Why should I live rather than you and talking to it in this gentle way? He then takes it across and lets it out of the window, and the narrator says that he never forgot that aspect of uncle Toby and I've got a bit like that. Now about flies myself. I don't like to see them buzzing around or even wasps letting them out just making yourself aware. You can't get fanatical about this, but making herself aware that these things have pressure. life of their own and let alone all the things of nature that we don't see that I'd visible, but just to build up a sense of the fragility of nature

the wonder of it and said that it becomes a part of our world instead of being absent from it. it has become for the last two or three hundred years. I'm with you much to the annoyance of my wife and child. I take the boat outside I even have got into the habit of taking my out of the mouths of my cats and bringing the mice outside? just gonna wanna be out of the killing business. Yes, and I think you see We often look at the way. Animals were sacrificed in the ancient world and say how cruel, but in fact we don't think of the millions of beasts This being slaughtered every day in abattoirs with any ceremony without any pity, without as just done this a mechanical job, and I think we should make ourselves aware of this, as indeed they did in india. If you were going to say

vice and animal. The you went through a whole lot of ceremonies months, in which the person who is making the sacrifice had to remake, make himself and sort of live a hot with his wife and separate himself from if the jury, but they said it's really better in the end, if you don't, kill the animal and give it to one of the priests to be looked after. For the rest of its days, and if you did kill it, that animal was killed very quickly and mercifully, but he was still preferable not to do that. in greece to they had a custom after an animal had been ceremony, killed of throwing the knife that had cut the animals throat throwing them if into the sea and drowning it in punishment for what it has done to the animal said, there had did the ancient well, they built up slow,

from being in the really ancient, well very casual about animal welfare to becoming extremely sensitive to it, and that's the sort of thing sensitivity that we need now to apply to ourselves and to culture coming up. Karen Armstrong, on the benefits of the confusion, practice of quiet sitting shall also talk about the impact of puncture, ring our sense of self concern and value the counter intuitive you, I might add, of reflecting on the pain of the world. Read after this. The risk of ethical sitting for a second, you said this is a practice, you're taking now personally and I'm gonna, get said what some of the benefits might be, but I'd like to hear you talk about it, but I'm guessing, and I'm extrapolating from my own experience doing similar.

practices that there be to twinned benefits. One is the benefit of all a w e, where your ego starts to feel smaller answer, your just less stuck in this painful self, obsessed, and the second is that one that happens you can feel. I believe, is the word earlier from wordsworth interfused more connected to something larger and have a sense, as you discussed earlier, how Pending we are on each other in the world on every breath we take, we depend upon nature, upon the purity of the environment. The were busily of polluting right now, especially here in london. And yes, I think we just need to make ourselves aware of this. The quad city is to just give some time every day to nature, and that becomes habitual. It becomes a habit and that's a habits that it becomes

a part of you, it's no good saying the right. Now, I'm going to be like some francis of Assisi from this day forward and bad absolute saintly. Ecologist, that's not going to happen at the thing to do is to do it said little bit day by day and one of the practice is, I think that is also important, is to values. Sitting was sitting on the bus even or taking the dome for a walk, letting your mind go out from yourself with so preoccupied with ourselves With our own feelings, our own grievances, our own problems troubles, and these chinese call its concentric circles. You start with yourself, then you move out to nature You and look at it become aware of its become aware of its back novices that become aware of your dependence upon it. Its beauty, its activity

they become aware of that then move further out to other cultures and send goodwill up to them. To you see today, ass sort of spirituality, tense, rather looking within, where we see that use of the buddha, for example, he is very much seems to be looking as it were within, but that put his text tell us that the buddha was not looking in

I'd he was sending out his goodwill and affection and concern to every thing in the universe, every person, whether that you'd, like them or not, every creature, every tree every plant in every part of the world, and he achieved that total sense of equanimity for all beings. He did not achieve enlightenment. That was what brought him enlightenment, where you escape the prison of oneself and one self concerned, and send it outward and said the exercise of nature, of appreciating the extraordinary bit of nature and seeing this

as a as companions as one buddhist texts tells us they are our companions. They are not just things that we use or admire or ignore they are our companions, and that means that they are friends and that we care for them as we care for human companions. We've got to make them part of our family and are vital concern listener to the show. Always many of them will be pretty familiar with buddhist practices. Me, no matter Emmy, TT practices, loving kindness practice where you systematically send goodwill to. individuals and then all beings everywhere. But if I'm hearing you correctly and please correct me- I'm not hear you correctly you're calling

for a kind of matter practice or loving kindness, meditation practice. That is a done sort of in the course of daily life and be directed toward nature. Specifically, yes, I think the best way of forgetting about the self, which is what you have to do as the buddhist scolded it ana, no self leave. The self behind is to focus on the things around you and nature is, should be first on the list, because it is something on which we are absolutely dependent. Now week. Two people talk about god and this

theologians said that that, in the presence of god, we feel absolute dependence that the sense that whole life adopt being at our health and oh everything depends upon this be, but what they buddhist soon, the confusions will say yes, but nature, two fists take it out, should nature, because that is sacred. I'd make ourselves aware of the wonder, leave losing that sets of wonder now and talking

What time is it in terms of rather scientific discussions of nature, or else polishing, our own cells and our own well being and see? How well we are coming along, forget the self and reach out to other beings. All beings, as one buddhist text, tells us it's a prayer. That's the buddha encountered some people who lived in the forest and they said look. We can't do this yoga. We don't know how to do it. We have a different kind of life. He said you don't need it and he gave this poem. That's all beings be happy. You do large or small. Alive or still to be born. May they all be perfectly happy. May lovey thoughts fill the world above beyond. I said that were free of hatred and I think this is something that you don't have to sit at a yoke a position to do. You can do

it, while you're working walking to work or sitting on the bus, or simply going about your business in the house, Extending your mind out to include other beings, other creatures, all beings be happy, even a wasp and and as well as other human beings, because sometimes it's easier to feel affection for nature than it is for some of our fellow human beings and to set of break down those barriers of likes and dislikes and said. Let it go and nature should be the first thing on our list. It's the power

keeps everything going, but we also have to feel that utter dependence upon nature. We we've used it for so long as a resource and a convenience, and now it's time for us to recover what for centuries, people did in the world religions so that every single leaf or tree or little smallest little creature was revered. sacred in india. They had a very strong sense that somehow nature of needed protection, so they perform very complicated, rich because every day at which they would try to build up nature again, but not many people could attend those sacrifices. They were really for the priestly elite and some of the ordinary people will never go, would never understand it or even go to these rituals, but that so, instead they introduced- and this is one of the steps that people can take, what they call the

sacrifices which didn't mean killing it annabelle, because the word sacrifice cubs from the latin sat chrome factory, it means to make holy, it's not about killing and animal it's about making it wholly. So they said to do it every day. First of all, they said every day put out some food or water for passing animal. Just you something you could easily do at every day. Let every person hook into your house, whether you like him or her, would not treat him with absolute respect as if he were a god. You don't have to The un's have that custom of holding their hands and bowing towards the divinity there. Gene in the other person, and then they said they called something scripture study. That did not mean you. Dived into the bible, lorella wholly text, you simply sat in a quiet place,

with your eyes on the horizon and recited him or a poem two yourself every day. Building up that sense of making the world wholly of acknowledging the holiness that you encounter with others, because when we are treated with utter respect, we feel enlarged. It does something to us, and we can do that. Two people every day in the weight of standing up for some one in the bus, for example, helping someone with their shopping, some think small. That makes people feel that they had noticed precious and sacred, because that's will lose the whole thread. We need to build this up day by day in small study. What are the practices?

the justice Canosa switches. The greek for emptying just emptying ourselves could swear so self preoccupied so concerned with us selves and our hang ups adoption, lucinda difficulties and our rights, but just remember every night just ask yourself how little we know just think just remind yourself. No beast breasts no saying I'm sorry, I'm so evil, just reminding yourself how little you know and how little you do for others, not again, a great display of guilt was that's all ego to just quiet acknowledgement that there still more to be done many paragraphs ago, you said something like forget the self. I understand I believe what you're saying there, but just a push slightly, because there's an interesting balance here and a tricky one. I think where advised by you

by the buddha to send goodwill to all beings everywhere, but we're beings too but we do need to take care of ourselves while getting into this kind of self obsession. Yes, absolutely. As you probably know, I wasn't none as a young woman, and we had do a whole lot of penances. That reminded ourselves of how such before we were at how hopeless we were, etc, to remind ourselves that this, but actually this just imbedded us in ourselves. It just bade us self conscious. Instead of just see how insignificant we are really and learning to look with admiration at others, things that other people do better than we do. We often, though, quite like that, but that there are people who will suddenly, do something they kind to somebody and that's a gift that we can learn from

and say what I can do that, but just to puncture that sense of self concern that is natural to us. We need it for our survival. We can't just go wandering around taking no notice of ourselves, but we are not the center of the universe when, Even the centre of our own family or our own group of friends, but just reminding ourselves of our lack of achievements, occasionally can not saying. Oh I'm a miserable cynical, that's a self inflation, but just well. I could have done more today. in the book there's another technique. You recommend fur getting touch with our instead africans are getting out of our heads which it's to reflect on the pain of the world. You say: can you say more about that? Yes, and that's one of the things that the buddha did as he was trying to achieve enlightenment, but starts looking a at the pain of

as a we see that every time we turn on the evening news to be honest, but we it also in the street there people at the top of my road sleeping in the street at night and offer we just walk past, because we don't know what to do with it. We should let that pain and disquiet enter our hearts somehow, and we should chide ourselves for not thinking of that enough. I had a friend a rabbi whose if a rabbi he used to give talks on the radio every morning every week during the news, little blue and he was very eccentric in many ways, but one of the things he used to do was by a whole lot of sandwiches and go to two used in euston station and deliver these sandwiches twice a week to all the people sleeping rough- and you know sometimes I go to have dinner at his house I'd be some extremely learned rabbi

germany. It was aware of a great way of everyone sort of bowed to who is there for supper, and may add some students and then there'd be a chap that he saw sitting outside the tube station. Nearly every day. Who is there among us as part of that, and he was a sort of saint I think, but he was so funny. He was also gay made no pretense about that, but such a sort of ten as for other people, but with no great show about it, said herself a basic I've. Never forgotten but we could all be like that we can all do think for someone who is sleeping it rough off the top of the road, and god knows there are enough of them here in islington and we just don't start off small but remember that all creatures companions as one of the Chinese says that those as well as the natural

well. These are other fellow beings too, that we need to treat with reverence and as though there's something sacred there, because there's something sacred in everything. The human being and in every single thing of nature, every single tree, every single plugs, and we need to make ourselves aware of that sexuality. Your story of liner blue from remembering his name correctly gets me thinking of a story about passion that I want to tell you I'll say in advance the story. My not resolve itself perfectly into a question Maybe you can just react to the story girl began. Your last answer by talking about the value of tuning in to the pain of the world- and I suspect it in- minds of some listeners. They might have reacted by saying. Well, I've got enough problems. Unwanted into the pain it's too much. But what that story about the sandwich delivery points. To, I think, is that compassion.

Is inherently ennobling and uplifting, because you're moving out of being swamped by the pain of the world, into a posture of Being useful, unhelpful, which even if not solving the whole problem just feels way better. So the story I was gonna do tell us that this is another new friend I made recently, not a man. I know very well, but his wife was at our house the other day telling us about how this guy is having a horrible health situation horrible, so bad that I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't fall back to sleep and was as dirty. walking meditation around the house just trial, do something constructive with my sleeplessness, but I kept being ambush while these thoughts about how these this horror situation that this guy, who I dont, know what

well that a really like is going through, and then I remembered something that you know over the last thirteen years of buddhist training I might have remembered earlier, which is that I can just send him what in buddhists lingo, we would call karun our compassion just bring him to mind and, silently repeat phrases like may be: free from pain may be free from despair, may be free from suffering and didn't solve this problem more mine per se, but it made me feel much better, and I but to stay connected to his suffering, without feeling swamped or powerless. Ok, end of story, yes, and I think that what that does is, as your saying it Take heed yourself out of yourself at just a moment of putty others before yourself, and in that comes a certain freedom, as you

in tat the value of such an act like the sandwiches, for example, that little would bring. It makes you sensitive to the pain of others, an acknowledgement that we're not going to solve these problems, the pain and suffering are with us always and always will be ass. You can just become self indulgent and relish, in your sort of sorrow for the world, but revises it. We can all do something. We can all make some miniscule bit of difference to somebody in our lives every day,

we can do something, it won't alleviate their paid completely, but it might just put a little spark of hope or something there, and even if it doesn't, the act itself is taking you out of yourself. A putting yourself in the place of another, which is, I think, is what spirituality is all about- is a form of ecstasy, spain's excesses, which means stepping outside, doesn't mean you it some glorious trance, but your stepping outside the confines of ego and selfishness. Just for a moment and putting yourself there and these actions, however small they can become as they did in line with kind of habitual said that its part of you, daily living without any great song and dance about it. Coming up Armstrong on recognising these small unnoticed things in nature? How

her time, as a nun paradoxically made her more self preoccupied rather than less and her definition of holiness. That's after this. We ve been talking a lot about these practices a week at all in degree, and our lives based in nature. duality that might help us with her very much an illness of despoiling nature curious. How optimistic are you that we're going to at least mitigate the climate crisis, through the mechanisms, your recommending or any other, to be honest, I not a very optimistic person. I tend to look on the dark side. I have great. fear and sorrow. I mean I religion for me as a child was full of anguish of despair.

Sinfulness and all that. But I think what these little actions can do is just break as our momentarily. These such moments like buying the sandwich, for example, of offering that for up for your friend, for example, takes you out of the self and it's a form of ecstasy is speed standing outside the self doubt built up over time day by day hour by hour. That kind of behaviour Kind of canosa can become more habitual, but don't expect that, where we're going to become saints by tomorrow and not we're going to be still fail, our friends. You know at the same time as well doing a kite action for somebody else, but just the concentration of a concern for another person or another creature takes us out

of that self preoccupation. So from here you correctly, you optimism that we as individuals can integrate these practices into our lives. In that they might gradually marginally in an account compounded fashion, improve our lives but maybe not allowed of optimism about all of the foregoing actually getting us out of the climate crisis. Look we have to keep hope have to keep on trying. Otherwise will just sit back and do nothing, and I think, anxiety at fear about that and not enough freely, because again it makes a sort of self obsessed. I think we ve got somehow to have been taken that sense of hope that we can do it. I mean you think, of what people

have achieved something like candy, for example, our achieved by small things that have a massive effects on the world, and if we all did this, if every day we made ourselves conscious by some of the practices that I've suggest, I hope that others might suggest make ourselves aware of the pain of nature. The beauty of nature that was very much central all world religions. As I say, except the bonnet this, then we just have to build it up in ourselves, not give up but realise that were up against a huge amount. That is something we can do at think of the people who do great things, we may not be up to the buddha or that these people baby way beyond our capacity

can all be light lionel blue and change lives, and by the smallest, anxious that we can achieve just by small humdrum, I think words with call them sort of small unnoticed things that change attitude. Take us out of the self in an ecstasy stepping outside the surf This is a bit about digression because back to some comments you made earlier in the interview you ve had said, extraordinary life, having been a nun and then now written so extensively and beautifully on the world's religions. I'm just curious Where has that left you enter, of how you conceive of god at this point in your life. I have had great difficulty with god in my life, but I think that for me, I've recovered a lot of that anger that sense of hopelessness. I felt that I would never be.

Cobb near god, or that god was so terrifying, in many ways I mean god, seemed to be a sum q big brother. Who always noticed all your failings- and you know we always confessing our sins and which really went up to much ready, but it was all about self and for me I have moments of peace and quiet when I've just lost myself for a moment when I'm just seen something very I like bridles activities or seen something extremely beautiful. Like my tree or a little creature, a tiny little creature crossing my desk and little spider or something I'm wondering about that, but its life, how extraordinary life there is in that tiny little thing, that's crossing my part. For a few moments and marvelling at it, and I think,

We learn to look at the natural world as a series of wonders, as a series of MR is that just give us not great revelations, but just tiny things that take us away from ourselves and our wretched self preoccupation for a moment at wonder, about it? What is it like for that? Little creature crossing my desk we'll never understand what is in a tree, for example, how, by tree sort of feels that we it. We can't even think of We mustn't even try and project our own feelings onto these creatures, all that tree

but we recognise that there is something other there and otherness his holiness we're talking there about the holiness of sea, the awfulness of things seeing their life, and that means it's wholly. The word wholly means other sacred other takes us out. Mother to just look at the tidy things, I think and that's a sort of a sudden you can do day by day hour by hour, your concept of god has transformed from a scary, big brother sky, god to something of mysterious ineffable force shot through. Everything is shot through everything that and that's what the world religions had always said. That's what I tried say it by very first chapter, and they saw it particularly in nature and sacred nature, and so the world is full of wonder the indians in their poetry, when they

about a tree or a river. That's a lie. That's a deity there, it's a lie, but it's something beautiful at holy. and you celebrate it in the best way you can buy poetry and art. Those are the things that help is something more than science and poets could help us share, many hopkins, for example, read a poem of his glory, be to god for dappled signals add and make you look at the bubbles of a egg and its fragility and its beauty and delicate. the source of life that is in it to learn to look at nature, as he said in small things that take us out of ourselves and fill us with wonder- and I dont see god as a being, but as a force that is it fuses. Everything that you

in future, that is in every single person, which is why the indians bow to one another when their are acknowledging the divinity there, but also its alive in plants and trees and It is to become aware of this credibility that is, and just make a little stop every day to say that is a sacred thing and its less open How rings wondering what nirvana is or qualities is, which could often just paralyzes a bit, because we don't know, but there is the quality there in everything. I made a note to myself when you talk about your earlier conception of god, as the big brother always noticing always critiquing, always judging and he'll has had to whether we believe in god, or not, we're all, or at least most of us doing, that to ourselves all the time. Yes, we do, and it's not helpful

You know I mean in the convent. We were endlessly confessing our faults and we had lost beads, underneath habits where we pull every time. We committed a fault, we pulled down that bead and then we counted them up at lunchtime and noted down in a notebook and instead, of losing ourselves, which is what religion is about, emptying ourselves can notice. We were self preoccupied, and we often we are still often self preoccupied. You know, even in us, by secular lives, about our appearance and about our success said about ability, to get on with others, and the thing to do is to forget about the self at its very hard to do, but just and the best way is by trying to notice

others, the other, the small things than the two things, the marvelous things, the rain we had this afternoon, which was colossal, having terrible weather here at the moment that this power of after weeks of drought, this path, ask of rain thundering down and awe inspiring that just be filled with awe. When we see things like that and realize that we are privileged beings that have the minds to see through things and see the socratic pity that it lies within each one they just pass it off mechanically Karen am sensitive to your time. Missus bennet delight. But let me ask you the two questions I often close with one is: is there something I should have asked but failed to ask no I don't think so. I came to this work. Open mind you

We are a whole lot of things that I wasn't expecting, but I'll have been denied. Thank you very much over. The final question is: can we not do to please give a full ugh for your new book. Well, what by book is trying to do is not just may. He gets feel terrified about the environmental catastrophes but telling us how, little day by day, we can make a difference to instead of feeding powerless at impotent before the hideous problems, our climate at the moment that we can do small things that actually, if the difference and also bring us a sense of holiness in our lives and the book is called sacred nature, restoring our ancient bond with the natural world available everywhere? It's one of the things you recommend in the book and we didn't cover. This is gratitude, but I will say:

I feel gratitude for having had the opportunity, so thank you. I'd be grateful to to be allowed to have this conversation. It's been wonderful. Thank you thanks again to care. Armstrong that you as well to the many people who work so incredibly hard on the show ten percent happier is produced by Gabriel's ackerman dj casual. justine, davy and lawrence Psmith. Our senior is her? User is marisa, schneider men can be regular, is our managing producer and our executive producer is Jen points out during and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio. We'll see you all on wednesday, four, a brand new episode, it's the final instalment, in our series on the four foundations of mindfulness, which you haven't heard the earlier episode, you should go back and check him out The four foundations of mindfulness is a classic buddhist lists of four ways you can establish mindfulness way,

stop sleep walking and we're gonna talk about the fourth foundation. With the great meditation teacher. Meta ran coming up on Wednesday hammond Take a little ask here if you like our show, and you want to support the work we're doing. There are some quick and very easy things you can do to help us out. First, please leave us a five star. Rating and review. Those are really helpful. There's a reason why podcast hosts ask for them all the time

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