This is the ten percent happier podcast damn harris hello. The phrase get over yourself is often used in a flippant way, but I think it's actually speaking to a deep. human need to get out of our heads to get off our own back to get out of our own way to be blown away. The greek word for ecstasy translates to standing outside of oneself at a fundamental This is what buddhism is all about. Seeing through the illusion of the self self is the source of so much of our suffering. We spend so much time building it up, defending it when, in the end, there is nothing there, or at least not as much as we might think there is so many buddhist practices are designed to help unlock this source of suffering, and today we're gonna talk about a foundational buddhist list that can help you do just that. It's called the five aggregates. I won't go into

great detail or any detail right now about the five aggregates, because our guest A true dharuma nerd is gonna hold forth with some great eloquence. Pascal o clare has been immersed in buddhist practice and study, since nineteen Seven he's done retreats in asia and america he's been men toward by people who will be familiar to many listeners, including Joseph goals, scene and jack cornfield. He now teaches retreats all over the place, including at us, beer rock meditation centre in California and he's the co founder of true north insight and one of tyrannise eyes guiding teachers I'd never met pascal before this, but I found it to be utterly delightful. We talked about how the five aggregates actually got him hooked on buddhism and philosophy in the first place, the five aggregates as a way to work with anything difficult in your life and speaking of different

They were gonna, spend no small amount of time on living with the non negotiable prospect of dying he'll talk about paying attention to pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feeling tones some of you buddhist or buddhist curious folks may have heard of this notion, I will again not say much now and let pascal unpack it for you and finally, we talk about meditation training as a way to understand that everything is conditional. One more thing before we get started here. Many of us, I want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping up against the same obstacles over and over again. The larger culture bombards us with new tapes and hacks and quick fixes. time to close the gap between who we are and who we want to be. But what There were different way to relate to this gap that would make you more likely to succeed. Actually what have you define intrinsic motivations instead of just reacting to stuff the cultures telling you,

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you love, maybe getting together with your people, means reconnecting with your childhood friends or watching the game with your college teammates or seeing your new baby meet your best friends baby for the first time. One thing is clear today Please don't often live in the same city, let alone have a single place to come home to verbal knows. The best place is with your people. With millions of vacation homes. Your place can be anything from a charming mountain cabin or lakeside, lodge to a city apartment for luxury home verbal homes provide the space and comfort. You need to focus on the people who matter visit, verb, dot, com or download. The verbal apt find the perfect vacation home for your people. Verbal a place for together pascal of clare, welcome to the show a thank you so much. Thank you. People at home can't see it but you're wearing a fetching sweater that has ace

barf knit right into it. This is high technology. I put my best to look for you, then well really excited to have you here. I know how to talk about this buddhist list. The five aggregates, which I am fascinated with its a great way to deconstruct reality so let me start with a sir foundational question, which is: why would we want to deconstruct reality in this way? What's in it? For us? Yes, yes, great question yes and theres many way we could deconstruct reality. Just by the way are, we could divided in two say what sight of me and the physical round. We could divided three past present future, so theres many wasted deconstruct reality we could say, but this particular way. I find very useful because in each of these five aspects,

is the way that we get in trouble that we get the particular way we get stuck sets a good way to study, stress, confusion, the suffering and the end of it. So each aggregate is and that the technical term, I believe, the polly term, the ancient term from the indian sub continent is scandal or piles. buddha liked to talk in agrarian terms, which may not be so resident now, but they were supervision and then because people did a lot of farming back them, and so you could think of these aggregates or parts of our experiences. Up pile of hay or manure. Whatever probably manure would be more useful here, and these are piles of conceptual hang ups- that hook us in a way that prevents us from seeing things accurately. Am I in the right, action here with this word salad. Yes,

yeah yeah yeah, pile of works for me, the pile, but you know the way to think about it than it might come from jack, conceal them that actually sherbet. I definitely think of them has not the five aggregates, but the five rivers the five rivers of things happening so away to think about this is just even as right. Now as your listening to me or anybody at home, is listening to this punk cast this five types of things happening at all Hence, and so if you want, let's look at it just now, inexperience as its happening so, for example, the result with the first you aggregate a river running through, we could say, the river of materiality so as you are, there does sensations in your maybe your, but on the chair this stations in your hands. So there's a river of physicality materiality running through right. It's happening right now.

it put part of it. Like the sounds, the sounds waves that are coming to your ears, so does a river of sounds and so this is one river that is running through right now. The other that is happening is the river of pleasure and displeasure. If I say something that is pleasurable to your ear, you're gonna exe, hence pleasure right in the moment, if I say something that is either fusing or disagreeable so, there's always fluctuation. That's why I call them river because it's always changing the breath is happening right now. coming in coming out. So when we called the boy, these a river of different sensation. It's a river also of pleasure and displeasure. That is happening and and Other thing that is happening on top of it at the same time here is that this? river of making sense of what's happening so not only lets, say this sound waves happening. There's also makes sense. You understand something of what I'm saying

So you know if there was not this river of making sense of the world, it would make sense there's a way that the mind is always organizing organizing what is seen what is found, what is heard, and so that's it third river then there's another river of intention, find the sofa desolating. Then I have to call myself to you so, as you are listening to be right now in anybody else's. Listening to this does not only a river of making sense. You know a series of sense that it makes there is also the intention, the intention, maybe to listen. I think I can say it didn't the way you listening to me that the sum. happening the mine, the intention to listen and maybe somebody else at home, as has the intention now to cut the carrot or banana. So what is it to be human

in its these rivers of intention. Does one left that I didn't name: shied name it now. Yes, please, yes, the fifth one and maybe we'll be able to come back on all these. We have time the fifth, one is a river of consciousness, so all these things are recorded that received the sensations pleasure. The meaning tensions can be known, and so this is What we're doing just now, we are actually deconstructing where our immediate experience into parts ends yeah. It can be fun to do and so maybe one other wages to explore this just for a minute. If you allow me, I would suggest we look around the room. If we just move our eyes around the room. We see many things of material round. You know, I see it, we door, lamb, drier books. So,

as these forms that I see- and maybe I see flowers, for example, and a pleasant to me- the flowers that term my partner me. So does a feeling that comes with it is not just like collars and form affects me in a way said: this has happened, right now is moving my eyes and I recognise things: would be really bad. If I didn't recognize window lamp things like this, I need to organise the world. So this is happening at this time and so what s happening the intention to move the eyes around is happening for me and all this is being known here and In a way it looks really. The word comes in french here on a day like not so important. Yet but slideshow yes, yes, so not so important! but, as I was saying earlier in every aspect of what is happening of these five aspect, this something that can happen that can lead to,

confusion, negative emotions, disappointment getting trapped in my conceptual world all kinds of things can happen and that and not only when I look around the room, but it happens in my relationships. happens in my own mind, and so that's the kind of clay or practice around. This is too deconstruct to find out how I get in trouble with each one of these things. I heard this said teaching, maybe off more twenty years ago, and it was kind of intellectually interesting to hear but also it ignited. Something in me like. I want to actually go closer to get intimate with these different things and to see how I was getting in trouble and experiencing a deuchar. This word disparity word of suffering in feeling of separation in there was

time in my life. I was not aware of this. I was not aware of how I was perceiving in conceiving reality. It was like the unconscious and it was revealed to me one time when I was in the doctors office, as I was twenty five years old back in the nineties and I'm in the doctors are facing, the doktor tells me hey, pascal something going on. It's not good you're, actually gonna die. you don't have an immune system anymore, and- you're hiv positive Not only are you hiv positive at this point. You have aids there's no more immune system that works in your body size. Sitting there and what happened you could say. One interpretation of this is that there was a spiritual experience. Everything I thought was solid crumbled like youth health

life that I thought was permanent and solid. Suddenly, my spiritual teacher of the time of at that moment the doktor was telling me everything you thought was solid and reliable and stable actually is And so that for me, I was sent on a quest and a big quest, because these things were revealed to me that what I thought was solid and permanent was not, and the buddha when he talks about this first aggregate a form, the body material wealth. He compares it to foam He says form by the side of the ocean or along the ganges river or any river foam changes shape with every wave with everyone. The crashes on the shore, the phone there changes, does nothing to it. It's end. then show its changing its ephemeral, its there's nothing inside of it. Well, the body is the same,

there's nothing solid in the body. and so when I heard the stitching ivy recognize. Oh, my god, that's exactly what the doctor told me. they're in the year in his office. He told me what you thought was solid and permanent, like the body is not is gonna be death. Health is not solid, either. There's gonna be this. Is it's coming? It's their inciting to me. That's how, when I heard the teaching The buddha, particularly these teachings, how it was the. How would you say in english, striking and so recognize. There was something true in the body s farm and then he talks about that say just take another one of these aggregates rivers perception how it perceives things it talks about mirage I thought this was so incredibly right. Eye so right on high. Very perceive.

conceive or interpret things to be their little different. So that matched my experience of you, no health buddy you with her stability of life. Suddenly he was saying to be that I took a very personal you're saying to me: hey what you perceived a solid in the world. It is a mirage. It appeared like you owned health, for example, but lie revealed to you that you don't own health. Health is conditional when the conditions supporting health are there. There is health and then, when something comes in and then in our different condition and health suddenly shows that it's not that solid or for matter: democracy or peace, and so when I heard this, especially this

edge of the mirage to talk about how we perceive things. I think I got ter hooked too, but this practice and this philosophy he answered a question I was gonna, ask you which is You talked a lot about how we can get in trouble if we're not seeing the aggregates for what they are and the answer is We assume things are more reliable and permanent, and then we set ourselves for suffering, when we find out that yeah you're gonna die, everybody knows gonna die or yeah think you're, perceiving things accurately, but maybe you're not can be hard news to hear, but if we're walking through life? Understanding that everything is an aggregation has no core nugget of you. That is permanent, it's hard to say, but it's better to see it than to be surprised, but he had because the

inside of you know, making all these things. So I in mind, because that's what we're talking about the constructing this kind of notion, averse, solid, permanent south in other, bad side of really buying into this solid ridge. The eye is assent, an impression and experience of may be separation, no yeah, like you feel, you might feel that you were in ones. The reality you know inside the little consciousness inside buddy and there is the outside, I'd environment is a separation and the separation is very stressful because it liable. You this me on one side and the world on the other side its viable, but it's They require a lot of work. I'm gonna have to be made the aggressive defence of our strategies, a lot so with the sense of I. That is very solid. That we might

this? We have conceiving things. It comes with loneliness of separation and because we make it solid, this kind of sense of eye it might come also with fear fear of death. Fear of what's gonna happen when I die First, it looks to me: I don't know how you feel about it, but to me from that view of a solid permanent, south death seems totally weird. It seems like a nonsense and insult either. It doesn't match it doesn't fit with my conception of reality in the way that I feel that I so exist and it's also the experience I have when somebody that I know dies, it's so strange that they existed. They so existed. There were so in existence and now you're telling me that they dont exist anymore.

This is so strange, it doesn't add up so death, a strange and then after death. If there's a solid, I'm disappears. It's totally stressful, if it continues its also stressful. I don't know in what form it's gonna continue, and so here the buddha seems like very gradually very method that the police- some words like this methodically we are familiar. So the very many sided way the saying hey, let's start to question this little bit, I give you a few different forms, to do this. So, let's removed the lands, you know the glasses of, what I want when I dont want was his mind. What is not mine and, let's put on let's say the

lands of the five aggregates and let's look at experience in this way, and what we might find is that there is constant death in a way constant appearance and disappeared, the things you know. The body sitting feels away an hour later, the body walking physically Little different way in my mind, is the same body, but inexperience, it's a completely other buddy the body covered. The body with covered, might feel very different. The mind mind that is happy the mind. That is sad. The reminder is confused a shameful or arrogant I think it's my mind, but when I look at it more closely, I find such different event phenomena ex tours, and so. That's how I understand this invitation of the five aggregates of five rivers of five aspects of piles. You know the buddha saying come a little closer to this. Look at it

actuality while it's happening and let's see how it behaves and welfare. and a lot of comings and goings, and this might release the heart on mine from identification, fusion, appropriate asian, run full appropriation laughing at wrongful up operation because one of the courts I love, have higher through Joseph, but he has this quote from some monk who says something to be effective When you think of anger as your anger, that's a misappropriation of public property. Yes, it's of the public domain yeah, I've heard them also say this, and you know when we talk about this, it seems a little intellectual conceptual may be fun fun to think of, but it is not clear that we can grasp the relevance of this. You know the importance that I want to see the seriousness without being too serious about it, but you know that this tendency that we have to

propria to define two year identify with all the events that happens in the body mind. This can lead to stress and we know one day we look in the mirror and suddenly use is dripping. Dropping it isn't fearing crumbling. You know, and if you define yourself by use, are intelligence, and then you have one night without sleep you know, but I am supposed to be. At least the intelligent and now I'm not at all, and what I find fascinating. And liberating is to watch how these different aspects of our lives, how they're changing how their conditional. My opinions, for example, is just another thing that I can appropriate my opinion, and it's something I heard you say may be on your podcast broadcaster. One of your guest unites suddenly becomes my opinions may happen. and until I hear somebody I say something more clever and then I just hook up on that point and then a fight for it

my opinion is, you know in two weeks later it's probably gonna be little different and there's this constant appropriation, I imagine sometimes then, like a monkey jumping from rope to rope or whatever the where this. For that thing they jump. I do you know this constant appropriation now, I'm my back pain. Now I my opinion now, I'm my body now, I'm you know I just keep identifying like this and I dont notice, if I dont look, I just think: there's a permanent compact, solid I'm going I yet it sir series of moments of appropriate nor identification. There was a film, and remember which wine it says, there's a little character it, maybe this nay movie or the lion king something like this is a little character and when run away from some danger of the little animal in the

god he's running and used. It keeps saying everything he sees. You know this is mind. This is mine. Oh, this is my branch. This is my fruit. This is my river. This is my mountain specific, linda erratic. Exactly like us, we keep identifying identifying to what two things that are constantly changing. A team disappearing. Peering this I dont, know how many lives I had since the small that I know I'm gonna talk to you. You know proud of it suddenly doubtful that I have anything to share is certainly something else. Are these emotions Dennett mine there of the public domain, you know, if I take them so personal and make them me it's gotta to be painful, but I recognizes dear Joseph says, you know how his fear his pride. He is doubt here's peace, his joy

something so beautiful. Two sets of much mew gets liberated. It seems its things that get liberated fears liberated, but does it sphere thing speaking a fairly may ask about you You told that harrowing story of being back in the nineteen he's in getting the diagnosis. You appear to me to be thriving from what I can see through this, Little video screen on on my computer monitor, but I'd be curious to check in to get the answer from europe, How're you doing and how You currently relate to the non negotiable prospect of dying yeah. I think I mean who knows on because if I went to the doktor and suddenly there was a diagnosis, a situation like more will he revealed that through this practice in I'm answering you the most earnestly, I think I can, like I mean answering you about what I'm seeing in myself is

I see it see like I'm, getting really close in a way to death a certain kind of death in a when I'm actually aware, mindful generously, attentive or a little bit more tend to end that I see moments disappear, I see a mind state disappearing, a thought disappearing, a breath disappearing and an idea disappearing. I saw these things appear and disappear. It seems like a very slowly I'm getting used to add isis of dying of losing things, and I think it's really wise of the buddha because is inviting us to do this right now when it's not that important. When I'm moving around doing things around the apartment, so I can notice how things disappear all the time by scott, because one day something important will disappear. That's what I hear you say like I want youtube.

Actors noticing that things are very unreliable the sweet, unstable intermittent are now. What's the word that you use for the flame of a candle flickering flickering that such a cut of a buddhist word to use not flickering the flickering? Isn't it true, like sometimes I think, somebody's as something against me. You nor is ass bad intention, and later it's revealed that now they just didn't understand what I mean and suddenly, but my point of view changes in the one second, one you when you information, and I'm in another world I'm not front of anatomy anymore, I'm in front of a friend and bang. It just vanished like this and said to me that something about this about the dying process of things things I dying all the time and we can notice to the small things and maybe in this way

either develop some equanimity, some balance of mine or some to meet talks, also about jobs about the preceding things because their ephemeral they're just passing through the precious because they're gonna vanish in it talks also about compassion, so relate others a lot qualities of the heart, the compassion to see that my opinions changes, opinions of the well the others change there was no covered. Suddenly there was a covered, knit might be finishing, it might becoming severe and stable things change like this all the time the something tender rising in that for me, and I think you know it applies to the aging process, to the not knowing what's gonna happen with the to talk about this disease, I have a virus. I have its dormant right now. Medication is working, I'm in the west

access to medication. I live in. Canada may be a good country to have access to healthcare, and so it's a little bit hidden for me right now, so that you know it. Seems like doctors is another by saying that I have as much chance to diet eighty five, then maybe you have or anybody else so the prospect seems good, but we don't know what can happen at any moment, so that death is a little hidden for me right now before the medication came ended, the cocktail therapy was not hidden. It was friends were dying you know you know in the eighteen and nineteen many of the nineties. First half of the nineties, It was right in my face all the time when it was on my body that was dysfunction. Getting dysfunctional in all kinds of ways, but now its citizens hidden. I'm glad to hear that yeah coming up. Pascal favorite aggregate, that's right after this

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guess: sprain from genoa, monet to Margaret atwood, to Malcolm Gladwell, to glorious dinah. That sounds eclectic well. That is that design sam is driven by a mix of curiosity, compassion and research. Talk. Easy is a place where people sound, like people enjoy talk easy with them. Forego so available wherever you get. Your protests, I think we might make sense to do- is to walk through the individual aggregates to really sheriff approach with a little bit of the methodical nature that the buddha himself tended to muster. So why are we started? The first aggregate in go from there. How sets up yeah so the first one of these rivers running through is the river of physicality of form, or we could think of our body, and with this

It's right there, you know my body like check with you. Is that the way you feel about it? The way you sense it be very natural. If there was an kind of appropriation in defining of south and the We are being very methodical talks about four ways that we identify with things, and so let's take the body. How do you feel dan? Do you feel that Buddy admit my data for views might happen at the same time, but do feel that the body is yours is your body. It depends. If I'm in meditation, I can start to see that it. This aggregates, I can see, is just a flow of sensations. However, if somebody stands to close to me, well, I'm walking through the streets of new york city. It really does feel like Personal violation, that's great! That's great with you saying, because you, the conditional nature of our perceptions, how we hold it is

friend, depending on the mind, stayed the situation, the environment, and so I like this because in their this fluidity, what I'm here use this fluidity and my sense of how I hold the body- and so it can be that it's my body or the views that the buddha about is like it's either mine or its. I I in the body or it's mine or another view. Is it's in me. So it's very simple: it's either. You think something is yours. It's you it's inside of you or you're inside it and you're, saying to me. While it can change, I notice that sometimes it's just may be a fit. of sensations when I'm in meditation. You know expansions and contraction of the bell. You may be what tingling or an idle this in meditation, when you sit the first time before you ve ever meditated. You're like this. My body I mean it, it's mine, it's me, then you sit and if you stay there

a little bit at some point. They would be not so much my hand, maybe, but tingling is happening. Suddenly the perception changes its very informative. For me, when I say, My perception can change, even if I'm still sitting there in the body, I can view it in a different way, and so what happens? third, the body or material form, so it could be things. Physical outside is that we tend to either think there Cars are not ours and we can do this with the partner. It's my partner and we can have ownership claim something it's good. If we do it with new ones like all for the time being, it's my partner, but sometimes we make things absolute like it's absolutely mine, and then, when the day the person says I'm leaving, you suddenly were like

oh you're mine, your my partner, well, you're gonna have to adapt your perceptions here, because it's not true anymore, and maybe it wasn't even true two weeks ago, but I was just getting ready to tell you so that something is mine, my child, my car. My Oh, it's tricky. Ah, it's very tricky. This is very sensitive. What I'm talking about when I think my child, my partner and his absolutely mine and the wisdom seems to want me to acknowledge in some ways that things are changing their condition or they could change. They will change and how can I all this should I owe this with rigidity, her with some kind of fluidity, like your sense of the fluid sense of I it's mine, and it's not mine. It's my legs, my mobility, and

Maybe it's not mine anymore, so since, as we have that are functioning now, the functioning only for a while site, taste. People report this in some of the version of covert when people would sail, last taster smile and saw when people lose sometimes side. Her hearing, of course it happens and so we want in a way to reflect on this prior to the event happening so that we can go through change more smoothly. That's why I find this very rich to think of how I appropriate material form. I remember one retreat than there was one person knew it q and I was asking one of them: monastic- were leading to retreat. The person said I own a restaurant, so that's the first aggregate form fulfilled I own, a physical restaurants, my restaurant and somebody.

Comes every week, and they do gravity on the window of my restaurant, So what about this? There was a question to the monastic in the monastic said. Well, you know that's where wisdom and putting it in my words now, but the monastic said that's where wisdom becomes really important here. It's your restaurant! Yes, on a conventional level, it is absolutely but it's also not your restaurant, because you cannot on something physical, absolutely You can on it. As long as everybody else agree, we went to the lawyer assigned papers whatever you do you own everybody agrees. It's a contract, you on the restaurant, but if wire starts like a dozen some, Countries we know, and suddenly you can find out that it's not your restaurant, absolute

I find this very intriguing and worth reflecting on things are mine, yet do not absolutely mine. How can I hold that gracefully careful the carrying me, and so the monastic was saying. If you really think it's absolutely yours, you're gonna suffer. But if you understand that yours and not yours, maybe there's gonna be less grasping clinging and it doesnt resolve it- everything because the person with the paint might come back next week, but the understanding can be partly liberating. How yeah snap exactly absolutely mine to meet removes the kind of possibility of the tantrum. So that's a little words for the form. The sir first aspect of experience that we were invited to come closer to be entreat by investigator, become attentive,

our relationship to it and how it behaves as something also that comes to mind that I find remarkable. I heard this a couple of decades ago. It's the buddha reportedly saying, there's a difference. but this aggregate of form is saying dear the earth element the earth elements wise beings. They recognize it when they see it to experience it the hardness solidity, they recognize it and they stop there. The animal eyes, beings, they add a little bit and that creates suffering for them when they experience the earth element. They recognize it like the wise beings, but they go a little further than they say it's mine, it's my and then they are in trouble,

how they in trouble. They recognize, while they're sitting, that this pressure on the butt and instead of stepping right there pressure on the but they make it might and from there is born the fear of death. What is gonna happen to me, my body, my earth, I'm that I'm in sight of this what's gonna happen to me. The practice of careful attention loving aware this satin polly mindfulness. We stay close and then maybe we can clarify bit thing, so it's not mine his just public domain pressure pressure gravity-

name, something that is more of the public domain and gravity and we make it personal and then we build, we conceive, there's something very fascinating. For me, that happens in our experience. Is that what we experience like pressure on the beard or tingling or a cell under a taste, what we expanse very natural, that it would happen what we experience we perceive. We explain in some way or recognise so what we expanse we perceive and what may perceive we proliferate on and so that what happens does here's the wise being they sit under their cushion, not the chair, and they noticed just there's gravity and for us we go a little further. We what we expanse we perceive,

and then we proliferate, we add on we embellish we built on, and so this is my not just like others gravity. This is me sitting here. What am I gonna had been too late. I have to go over there later and then we built a whole story and we're entrenched. occupation by that story. We live in that story and meditation is to come, to something very, very immediate body sitting breathing its. conciliation. We renounce into the you know embellishment that we get kind of trapped in what if this happened to me later, what will happen to me later? Will I experienced this later than we feel fear, and a lot of things happened from that construction

and in the practice of meditation it could be under cushion on the chair, but it can be our son in life to keep things very simple here we are here. I am standing army. I am stressed what, if it continues, what if this person says that to me, what am I going to do? others. Embellishment is making us further and further way from reality and further and further caught into a in caged. So that's aggregate slash river number one number two is often referred to as feeling tone tells me that yes, so this is also something that is constantly happening. It's happening now as we speak, and sometimes it's more obvious than others, but that something that is part of our experience all the time. So with anything that we experience, b? Something seen something heard something tasted it could be

it could be an emotion with anything that we experience. It comes with it, some kind of pleasure about it or displeasure or the absence, the neutrality of it. If it wasn't there, I think we wouldn't even recognize life, so some taste we find pleasure bought some taste this pleasurable something's. We hear we like hearing them some things there on pleasurable to think of and many things are they don't stand out in this way the neutral and as many of these moments and in breast, for example, for many people breath. What's that, like all my god, it's so pleasurable to breathe, sometimes it might be sometimes displeasure more, but very often may be, for many people breath is neither pleasant nor unpleasant its new in this way. So this the buddha, oh my god, he makes

so important central in his teaching and it makes it one of the aggregates and puts it in almost all the lists, fighting us sing, hey down, hey pascal tune. here. there's a lot of trouble possible around this. If we tune in to these experience of pleasure will notice how they arise and vanish rise and vanish so they're nuts table there. And stable unreliable. You go back to the same restaurant. You meet the same person and it you're not sure that it will be ass, pleasant, ass, the last time or unpleasant back it's very hard to control. You go to see a movie from your favorite director And there you are bored to death, it didn't work this time. Are you ve seen enough of this style or her style

so the something in it very liberating when we become really conscious that up my cut son, reliable or even here in this meeting with the sir person this evening, black, it keeps changing, It's really really pleasant and then suddenly a something happened with the waiter word with the taster and vanished these are in a relationship over the course of a few years, and so the buddhas seems to invite us to pay real attention to see the variation and how, as you know it to cling to things that are pleasant and we and to fear, are relieved as aversion to what is displeasure bull and also to not notice. What is, neither pleasurable nor on pleasurable, so there's a whole of our lives that we miss the mind,

and even notice it because it doesn't feel pleasant or unpleasant and in meditation with the meditative attitude that we can bring to daily life. For with that aspect of, maybe we could call investigate listen when something pleasurable happens. We notice how look at his pleasurable. Let me stay in relation to it instead of may be wanting to keep clinging to it in a? Let me yet experience, pleasure and notice how it appears and disappears and when something unpleasant happen, Let me see how could displeasure led to com or integrity, our patients are care or honesty.

tat of irritation. Closing down exploding. How can an experience that is on pleasurable leads to healing or stability compassion or humor. Maybe that's right. training to me that something that would naturally lead to more trouble could lead away from trouble it will require of me a lot of attention in life. The capacity to recognise a fortunate If one hears something happening? It's not what I wanted it's. What I did not want, how can I develop courage here, a patient sore yet again in Thirdly, how can I have my value of respect or consideration be added foreground here when it's being challenged, not easy, and so there's a whole field here that we can

floor in the buddha use the image of the bubble to talk about this almost sing like hey honey, don't put all your eggs and the same basket. If you try to make things the bull and safe and and find pleasure ball, and as you like it, it's gonna be really stressful right because you're not gonna get it. There's gonna be a pleasure displeasure and not of neutrality may be, and how can you be free in the midst of that sum, here's a whole feel. Here's a pile worth worth checking, you know, and that's for aggregate number, two get number three. Oh my god, my favorites. I love this one so red as per section. I just want to point out that we are listening audience members to a true dharma nerd. I'd say that with love, I'm an aspiring, darman,

I respect it yet. Well, you know this. I think this enthusiasm it develops. Also in practice we talk about the jai, for instance, the curious joy, the giraffe curiosity, I'm so thankful to my teachers, because they showed me this that, instead of the new version or not, noticing things that I can actually come close experience things and find things out about these phenomena that I am experiencing every day and with third, this curious contact, the curiosity, because very slowly. It becomes a joyful curiosity, and so now I'm like. I can't wait for something displeasure button, to see. How I could do with this is like a next episode of a netflix series, easier what's gonna happen next year to year, and so this third, the aggregate, I'm really

enthusiastic about it because you know it's perception how we perceive things, and so when We were talking about the feeling tone, it's more like how we are affected by things and how they are experienced as pleasurable or displeasure born, and now it seems like it's more about the object. The thing itself I know, how we perceive the things, and so imagine that the classic example you walking in the woods and it said getting dark then, you see across the path the snake new jobs for freeze want to fly, fly pen. so you see the snake and then you look a little closer and suddenly your perception changes and you discover its a bit and do you see how the internal experience changes? The thing hasn't changed, fascinating. to me it's the same old thing that is on the ground there, but it's perceive differently and therefore the

all of the inner experience changes when I felt like there was a threat I needed to defend myself. I might die poison, all the embellish, of my mind you not suddenly it's a completely different thing And so this is an all classic image, but this is what we expect in life. You know when we perceive things. We think that weapon, perceive, is what the thing is. Yet as we pay attention will discover that desert allowed of projection in there because of past experience when I met somebody. Looking like that person, it doesn't look good because a person who looked like that person in the past Something to me or I learn through education the dominant group that this kind of person are dangerous, they are dangerous. It's not a perception to me. It's a fact. There There is a need to change. The sight of street in order

on the other sidewalk, and with this practice we learn to pay attention and recognise things from they are such a buddhist expression, recognising things for what They are seen reality for what it is, and here the work is to recognise that what we think is subject is is actually very, very subjective that I see somebody and I will it's not- that their desirable or dangerous it might be. It might very well be in many cases, I'll find out that I was actually in future things, refusing the site with my own learned. Conditioning and so wow, that's remarkable. So when I think, for example, of the future looks bleak to me, the amount of

freedom possible when I'm able to recognise that this is a momentary perception, it's a mirage if I'm confused, like we are often we take our thoughts to be reality. So the week is gonna sack the years gonna sack of my life is gonna suck. That's really painful. Unless I know it's a miracle If I know it's a momentary perception, then maybe I can hold it more lightly. The looks bleak that's how it appears right now, appearance is, and I can learn to relax in my projection We could think. Oh, yes, it makes sense for the future, but it for the past knock and maybe with practice are closer look, I might find out that, depending on my mood,

gonna perceive even the past differently. I always said I suck, I always said everything it out with everything I expense in my life's is that more about reality or it's more about the mood, and so here's perception how I appear to myself in any moment how others appear, people then people people when we're impatient people, they sack people suck. That's a fact that reality You know on a bad day. New york city is trying to reach some destination, and all these the desk as you know, they sack and then you come retreats meditation. Something just happen to you. Some beauty,

some beautiful moment, and then you walk in the street and people. People are so touching some moving people on the so much compassion for them, trying to find their way be safe. Experience is so people how they perceive and past and future and myself in some energy. You know that one he hears one of Joseph teachers. Yes, yes, and when he says the thoughts about your mother are not your mother, that's kind of basic liberation, its huge its sick, but huge to know that a mirage is a mirage, he's so helpful in life, our best gallia discouraged. Of course it looks like this instead of buying into a daring into any perception to see. Let's see, let's see, what's gonna happen, maybe miss this aggregate. Just with this done, because it's been so remarkable for me that this aggregate has been

standing out or outstanding in the last couple of years, because cove iD vaccine mask talk about perception, some of us think it doesn't exist. Some of us think it exists to convey Some of us thinks the vaccine is really important thing that happened. Some of us think it's the worst thing that can happen to us mask some of us think it's good to wear it. Some of us think it's the ridiculous thing to do like it shows to us how we live in a world of mirage. And how can we hold this? I think it's good to know

It helps me for me when I meet people who have a different view on all these three different view than mine. You notice it. Of course, they can understand things differently because of their experience, what their been exposed to and what I've been exposed to, and one thing can be seen so differently from two people coming pascal tax about that responding instead of reacting to stuff and practices for working with selflessness. After this.

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of cars, on line defined one within your budget and don't worry about any surprise. Bogus fees visit, carve out a dot com or download the app to shop for vehicle curve. Honour they'll drive, you happy, availability, very by market just to take this aggregate in a slightly different direction. I have not done much practice using the aggregate says the focus of my meditation practice, but I certainly heard of it discussed this buddhist list many times and on retreats. Lord de guest interviews or just imbibing buddhist book served armor talks in day to day life and, if so, how? This notion of perception has resumed its way into my practice, the following way, which is every once in a while, be sitting or doing walking meditation, and I will hear something like a fire engine or a cat puking on the rug or whatever and I'll notice. Ok, lightning, quick quicker than I could ever have seen, play out

real time the mind identified what that was, but it wasn't me. I was not, therefore, that it just fine your engine came into my mind, and so that's a a very quick and, I think very easily accessible way to unhook from the self. Yes, exactly so the mind does that it recognizes things it labels things it's it's perceived things yeah, so it does it on it's own. So it's not that personal right, yeah, and by the way, that's one of the perceptions we want to correct and meditation is a refinement of perception you could say or what is meditation. It's a training and perception and What do we do partly and safe agree with me on this, we can compare notes that

when we practice, we start to come closer to experience, have as their happening and we are invited to notice the specific characteristics of things. This is a taste. This is a thought. This is agreeable. This is disagreeable. This is felt in the oh, this is felt in their hands you when we get really specific about the experience and at some point in that Perception. Training what's starts to stand out is the characteristics that are not specific but universal. two things. So some things are tasted something's, I heard some things are thought some

is our blue, some things are red, they all have specific characteristics things. Some things are pleasant. Either things are unpleasant, but what did they all have in common is wet starts to be noticed in the meditative attitude or in meditation. When we start to notice is that things appear and disappear. Some things are heard. Some things are seen, but they both appear and disappear and experience. Some things are pleasant, others are unpleasant, but they both appear and disappear. They're all conditional- and none of them are that person on which is the most intriguing encounter intuitive aspect, but, like you, justice having po through meditation. I unable to recognise that perception is just does its thing. You know, there's a sigh and right there. This

image of a cat or fire truck, or it just labels, things that organizes it's not that personal? I totally agree. I totally agree By on the clock a little bit- and I know if two more aggregates to sort out here and so if it took with you all I'll, not just in the direction of mental formations. Yes mental formations. That is the aspect of mine. That is large enough to include many things. So you know the feeling town is how we are affected by things pleasure, this you're, the perception is how we perceive interpreter see the thing the mental formation is how we enjoy. age, how we react or respond to events, sidney the emotions. The thoughts, the intent that arise in my mind or in our minds

and so right now, as any of these aggregates, are always happening at this at any time. They're always happening right now, for ample. You have the intention to hear me. So what you hear? might be agreeable or disagreeable. You perceive the sense of what I'm saying, and it elicits sorry it's something you sometimes it's a desire to push. Sometimes it's the desire to keep sometimes its desire to think of so this is the spawns or reaction that arises and the image for this that the buddha use in that secular suit. Where uses these five image for each one of the aggregates is the banana tree trunk. and so the story goes. Imagine somebody who wants to build something solid so somebody wants to build something. Solid Oh, they go to the woods there, go to central park. Looking forest

trot want to build a refuge or something solid. They in the words of central park and sunday, they see the banana tree like there are many I bet in central park being south of montreal. So they see a banana tree and right there. They think oh wow, look at that. Big leaves big flower, big fruits. There must be solid wood in the heart of this banana tree. so with their acts, they start axing the banana trees to find what at the core of the banana tree fibre. Nothing Solid, no hardwood ends or the buddha use that image of the banana tree to talk about all these things. That arise in us and if you're mad dating I'm talking to the idea of security. This nurse, you know if you ve meditated just a little bit. You know how the mind will construct something you know you're sitting wanting to be with the browser just the same.

Answer the silence and the mind starts building up something that creates a story or next week. This have to make sure that those that and then ten twenty minutes down the line. Suddenly we caught up I'm just here banana tree trunk. There was big flowers, big leaves big fruits, but in the car of it nothing it was just a construction mine, mental formation, a generation of mind and the buddha says these construction. You have to recognise them for what they are, because you take them to be solid, to be factual to be reality when their cost fractions of the mind, they're, just ephemeral, things that appear. unlike the banana tree, will fall on the ground after having been born baron burn foreign fruits. Yes, yes, yes, so and these emotions, for example, that very naturally we take so personal and are so invested

and emotions that we experience and we- take to be mine. Are inside of me in your mind, are I you know the buddhist as it does now there's nothing to it. It's empty in its nature is something that as the nature to arise and pass and in meditation we will find this out. Suddenly a big wave of anger rage, a big way doubt, shame a big wave of verb arrogance, you know I got it. I understand all the stuff. You know only to be followed twenty minutes later by doubt. What am I doing? Am I doing it right? How should I go about this, and so the buddha is inviting us to notice the ephemeral m t nature of these have risings, and if you are, interested in court, a kind of counter intuitive essential buddhists thinking, we could think that's the

tension, the intention to open the fridge, the intention to go to displace at that place. We could think this is really I since I maybe I'm, not the body. Ok, maybe I'm not the emotions, ok, they come and go. Maybe I'm not the pleasure. Comes and go, but the intentions, the one that in ten this is me this I this is inside me or I'm inside this or something like this and buddhists as well. I put it in my words in a bit Well, I looked into it and I found it. I in there you know intentions arise out of conditions. Out of education prior experiences. You could think some of the people decide. I'm gonna take up the weapon to go defend my country. It might look like a purse. not decision on one level, you consider very personal decision, but the intention to take up weapons are arms arising.

Of the conditions. If there was not the war in my country, maybe the swish wooden rising me. It wouldn't just wouldn't- and so even this- that's inside the car, if human experience the intention I'm the one decide to think well just said a few minutes and you have discovered that it thinks a lot in there and that certainly not. I want others think, as admitted data, I just want to be with the breath, but it keeps thinking. So the thinking is not so much a core I that does. It is just habits, compulsion, net, so personal and then the last aggregate consciousness is that I got Carl Sagan anything. So I tried to bigger little to get the attention of the listener, because this has been going up till now.

grab, did such a bit here and so consciousness while the image while so powerful. The buddha compares conscious ass to a magic show ends a moment of hearing a moment of Thinking a moment of experiencing an emotional moment of feeling. Some in the body and backward the legs of the sheet, moments of consciousness. One and the other creates the amazing Jack show of. I the illusion. solid, permanent, intrinsic permanent. I- and so the buddha wanted us knowing of confusion that can come and how we can get caught inside of sounds with the sense of solidarity. With all his compassion seems to be saying: hey, honey. Note.

The knowing mine, noticed in knowing quality of mine, how it appears and disappears and you might find that does not even the eye in the center of this, which she would think this is the last hideout pascal. And take everything away from me, but the observer this is I the one that experiences this is. I and buddhists says you can got that fire has to question that assumption, with questioning all assumptions, I'll preconceived ideas in meditation. That's what in fact negation. Does you know we sit there and we notice this is And so I did a sense of iron. We start to deconstructed at all.

Sensations are not I they come and go. Emotions are not. I they come and go. Perception happened by themselves, they come and go, and consciousness, maybe also is of the public domain. May is just a knowing knowing is just knowing maybe there's nothing that I need to identify or appropriate here, and maybe through this second lose fear of death, because if I think I'm the little consciousness isolated inside this body and I'm separate from the world. It's scary, it stressful, but if I discover that are now it's just something that happens now, that's the most subtle and all these aggregate stand there they're going from the more growth to the most subtle, she's notice, but expenses of the, body, sensations, tastes, very cross and then pleasure and then

reception o already, very, very subtle, and then what Hence, in the mind, hearts so tricky in a with thoughts and emotion, we can get caught and then consciousness, which is transparent it's not the sensation, it sweat knows the sensations. It's not the the taste at what's experiencing taste, it's very transparent, it doesn't have much features, but there can be an identification or clinging to it. As I it's inside of me, what practices do you recommend to probe this selflessness of consciousness? Wow? That's a good question! Well to me, it's such a subtle point that it comes much further in the practice. That's what I would say just here spontaneous

because I don't think it's easy to investigate. That's why into the practice. We start with the breath and then the walking the pasture the sitting and then the emotions and the thoughts and like it's very five, you go sit. The typical retreat usually does no talk about consciousness until the day, eight or nine said the very end of the week, long or tender retreat that they'll start to talk about this, because one needs to have a mind that is very quiet and stable. I think to start to be entreated by this, so that's maybe a first response, but one way we don't want it to become hetty, that's the danger. If them, doesn't have a lot of silence in it, but one way would be to ask who whose hearing who's thinking who's sitting and then we can

feel it's not that we shouldn't cleaning or identify what we want to do in practice is recognised as if it's happening, oh yeah. The sense that this is I sitting here, observing or feeling expansive reality does a very clear, definite sense that I am meditating good. Nothing to do just noticed is high and then suddenly, as you describe suddenly perception happened by itself. It was not I perceiving, but perception was a function of the mind and happened by itself, and so it's not like you have to get rid of anything, but just get curious. Where is the eye? Is I'm sitting here? if the minus agitation to it, it will become discursive conceptual I'll, be thinking, but if there is some quietness, then maybe I'll be able to sense how it appears to me how it's perceived in this moment. Ah, I is listening

and maybe sometimes something else happened. You know why we use the language and we can play with this. Are so maybe that's gonna be my last possible answer. It is you know how, when we practise the wording, we use might we might remove the eye ass? We practice instead of saying I'm hearing, silence or sounds in the street. Just to say, hearing is happening. Hearing is happening. How this fear is known instead of I am experiencing fear or I'm knowing fear or joy joy changes happening, so we remove the eye. Not to go towards the dissociation? That's something else. We remove the from the language just to see our lands in the experience. How there is chopping, carrots is happening, there's breathing and suddenly we might experience it for a few moments.

That does not I in there and no one is disappearing. Nothing is disappearing. We just removed that way. Perceiving conceiving the world and things keep going to questions before I let you go, one is is there something I should have asked but failed to ask during this romp through the five aggregates now, there's nothing you should a basket could have asked it. There's something I should have said there could have said. Probably the it'll come waiter, but this is what happened here this time. I would say an important thing to me, though, that I tried to do, and I teach- and that seems very important, is to make the connection with the things that can seem so conceptual and

cold. You know no south net. I make the link with the hard, because I think to me that's why I'm still practicing today. It's because of this that we are talking about these things. They become practice and they can become practice and if they become practice there. make the heart vibrant to me. What I see in this Strangely enough is that its liberating its liberating the hard it's freeing the heart? What's at the end of it I don't know what the very end but what's happening appearing is that job, eyes more available that tenderness compassion arises more spontaneous that is more calabrian. Equanimity balance inside the hard mind that does more compassion.

Relationships and joy and appreciation that healing is possible to me. It's really related to healing to the heart. I don't know if I was able to convey it today, but that's definitely to me what it means of this is that joy becomes available and care the self absorbed fascinated by south in things like this. That tibetan phrase comes to mind alla time at moments like this. The rough translation for the tibetan phrase enlightenment is a clearing away and bringing forth, and if you can clear away all of this grasping energy. Then it's a lot of good stuff that can take its place so beautifully yeah clearing in bringing

worth it. Here's my last question, which is: can you for the many people who will have listened to this and may want to learn more from you? What are the best resources out there to get more pascal, even though pascal's an illusion? Of course I thought you would ask about. Like could read more about the aggregates, and but let's talk about one. Yeah. Well, you know I teach here and there I'm I'm part of the core faculty at the insight meditation society in massachusetts. So I go. There may be two or three times a year and I tour a bit You know a different places. Cities and countries in europe and north america do you know, there's a website with my name on it and you know on them.

must seeds. There's many teachings there. That can be found. That's what comes to mind now, pascal eau claire dot com. Yes, we'll put a link to that in the show notes: dharma seed, which Pesco referenced, is a website that aggregates to use a loaded word, dharma talks given at retreat, centers all over the world, and if you go to that website, which will also put a link to a new search for pascal's talks, you can find them there. Thank you so much for doing this. It was a delight and was so great to meet you yeah. Thank you dan. Thank you for everything. You do it's! It's really good you're out there and thank you for two. the reason I love practicing with people said to me- does nothing greater than sharing a hard together for a few days. You know in discovering human nature, which is quite a thing. Thank you done. Thank you.

Thanks again to pascal loved meeting him. Thank you as well to everybody who were so hard on the show. Gabriel's ackerman dj kashmir, team, davy, Lauren smith, Maria we're, tell Samuel johnson gent plant and we at our audio engineering by ultraviolet audio. We'll see you all on friday for a bonus with election, Let us come and make a little ask here. If you like our show- and you want to support the work we are doing. There are some quick and very the things you can do to help us out. First, please leave us five star rating and review. Those are really helpful. There's a reason why podcast hosts ask for them all the time

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