This is the ten percent happier Podcast Dan Harris had gang of your listening to the show, that's probably because you're interested in doing life better whatever. That means you many people when they get into this mode attack personal growth and self improvement with a tidy optimize. Her attitude, I'm gonna, get super fit regularly achieve, could toasters become an olympic level meditated? Basically just when it everything, but the dead up pretty clearly show that if you want to be happy and healthy Most important variable is not how chiseled your ads are or how many days you can keep up a meditation streak, not that there is anything wrong with either of those goals, but instead important variable is the quality of your relationships. If you care about you term health and happiness. This is an area where you should focus and the Good NEWS.

is that love, and I use that term broadly to apply to friends, family, romantic partners, Love is not a factory settings, but instead a skill. My guests today are two of the basque people, from whom to learn how to hone this skill. Doctors, Julian, on government or the co founders of the Gottman Institute, they have developed a clinical methodology for treating couples. That is, research based. They have completed over forty years of research with more than three thousand couples. John is the principal researcher here. Julie is the commission. In this conversation, we talked about how to talk to your partner in moments of conflict. What to do before you start trying to solve a problem together. Why there is no such thing as constructive criticism, the details of Johns Research findings, which have allowed him to predict stunning accuracy, whether a couple we'll get divorced, how the governments themselves do it when it comes to operational, using their own findings and advice. How and why betrayal or

fidelity occurs when a couple should consider separating the role my on this can play and healthy relationships and the role of humor, which is a double edged sword, as you will hear without this would be the perfect episode to post on Valentine's day and we hope you enjoy it. Heads up. There are a few mentions, though, of sensitive topics, most notably domestic violence, which Julie discusses briefly toward the end. The interview, ok, we'll get started with Julian John Gottman, read after this hey, so Here's a word you dont often associate with taxis and easy, but attacks that they use word all the time, because Tax act makes it easy to get started easy to. Finally- taxes and easy to switch. Another word: they use lot guarantee taxes, guarantees, your max refund and with their one,

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go online now, at last, the air dot com and earn one mile for every mile you fly on the most carrying airline in the sky doctors, Julian John Gottman, welcome to the show thanks so much Stan I get in Julie. Let me start with you I'd love to hear a lot, But of your collective origins story. How did you and John Meat and getting into this work great question John, and I met at a coffee house in Seattle so I had just moved after getting my phd to see at all and John had moved there. Also from University of Illinois. I'd move from San, Diego whereof is going to school finished and I walked in. I saw this super cool guy. He looked very sexy. He had on kind of dark glasses and black leather, hot

a letter coat. He was sitting and reading a book of course cause that's what he does all the time and I needed to get some coffee. I was driving to a party and he asked me I'd like to join in for coffee, and I thought I'd much rather sit with him and have coffee go to this party of my mother's in step fathers. So I sat with him had coffee and forty five minutes later. I think I was of. He walked me to my car afterwards and I fell in love with his car down. His car was outstanding. It was ancient, it was read with big blotches on it and he told me later it had been voted. The ugliest car in the University of Washington Faculty parking lot. Tat was impressive. I thought those very cool down, yonder

in bondo, because the car that he has not John, because it had been rusted out in Illinois in the snow and he'd gotten some fellows under the door who offered to bond. I want it to patch up the rust the fellow did with big white blotches. And John never the copper, so kind of. Look like red dalmatian. If there can be such a thing and it viewed or fall. I loved his car and five months later, he proposed so that how we met. I was a psychologist working with folks who were deeply or press deeply impoverished, very depressed, getting no services. I had worked with people who had been physically abused. Actually abused emotionally abused, and that was really my love. Working with post, traumatic stress tests,

Sworder and combat that's torture, victims as well. So I kept my private practice separate from Johnson he was doing only research at the University of Washington but fabulous research, and I guess what about eight years later, eight years later, we were sitting in a canoe day, I'm out in the Pacific, coercion and John had just published some of his incredible findings. Again and I thought why don't we do something to help people with All this great information that was the beginning of our working together. Creating new theory about couples, new interventions and the Gottman Institute. Eventually in nineteen. Ninety six, I think at anything.

love, nor that it really is a combination of a researcher who didn't clue how to help anybody. Clinician who had greater sensitivity, especially for people who had other kinds of problems? That made relationships are difficult saw. The two of us together really hammered out theory that we tested over the next twenty six years. and refined them as we discovered in a what needs to happen. Make the theory better and better. I want to get into the theory and some of your research findings John, but can you describe briefly how you got into this field of research. What was so interesting to you? Well, I it was based on my complete incompetence and relationships. Muscle

research was done before when that Julia about twenty five years before I met her my best friend eleven, sir, who is psychology professor at USC, Berkeley and I were the system answers that Indiana University when we met and our relationships with women were not going very well. We both from one disaster to another and so we had no hypotheses, at all? We're gonna clueless and we decided was still research on this and we love working together, and so we just bored couples to this laboratory that, combined, Bob's expertise in looking at physiology with my interest in looking at interaction, in relationships- and I was the one coding the emotions and the tapes and Bob was

rising the video time, called to cycle physiological measures you are getting, so we just thought, let's just start completely afresh and in a we were among the three laboratories. Ninety seven, these that were doing observational research on what makes the difference between couples who are happy and stay boy couples who are really miss boy in their relationships or event you going to break up and divorce so Bob, and I teamed up as to clueless guys who had no hypotheses and just collect the data and we were quite stunned- We were able to predict with such high greasy over ninety percent accuracy, how our relationship would change a three year period, and we just did that same study over and over and over again with gay and lesbian couples with couples across the life Courson

with Transit Charles psychologist, so is really interested in how to roll ships affect babies and children, children effect relationships. I was interests. My and Bob became very interested in old age and dog various forms of dementia and looking at relationship components to study, emotion during front out pearl dimension, Alzheimer's, dementia, so we saw, went different ways eventually, but Bob was able to do a twenty year study of a group of couples who were in their are in sixties, and I started the real within that Bob's tenacity allowed us to study the same group, twenty years bring them back into laboratory six different times over that period, and so I would say penal bob- and I will quite surprised

is that what we measured actually made a difference in relationships. When you say you can predict with ninety percent accuracy, whether a couples gonna stay together What are the variables that allow you to make that prediction great question? Our best prediction was in the area of conflict, so uncouple sir, green with one another and we interviewed couples about their worst complex try to have them resolve their worst conflict. The next fifteen minutes just cause. We the interested turns out that couples who were sort of the disasters of relationship, pulleys stay on unhappy relationships or break up. talk to one another in a particular way. They would start with critic some blaming their partners personality further, friendship trouble. They would escalate to contend,

sort of insulting their partners, personality in character and blame me: there, if all the troubles they would sometimes you know, get defined, serve when their partner mention something that they wandered changed, or they would still while they were actually withdraw from then or action only where the calling of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, because those four things predicted relationship demise, where's the masters of relationship were not as defensive, took possibility for even a part of the problem or job stir in the way they brought up. The issue had a better, so to deal more especially gay and lesbian couples had a better as a young, and they were less likely to withdraw emotionally from the interaction they just stayed in there and kept working, and the physiology itself predicted saw the couples who relationships wound up getting worse and worse over time when they talk a problem had much higher heart rate, fest,

blood velocity higher blood pressure, they sweated, more enjoyable, around more in their chairs. There were more we're in fight or flight, when they were talking about a problem, whereas the masters of relationships, random, being eblis self soothe and stay calm. Sir looking at those things. In addition to just simply the ray she'll of past two negative interaction, We found the masters had a ratio averaging five to one five times as much positive as negative your action during conflict and the disease history. Is that ratio positive or negative average point eight, so a little bit more negativity than positivity and just ass set of variables. Lattice to predict within fifteen minutes, the future of our relationship with almost ninety percent accuracy, securely Johns, the Quad jock, the nerves of numbers dude,

a little bit more, the way, I'm wired, which is more qualitative skills. Based, as I understand it, as I listen to John Talk, I serve flash back to my moments of conflict in my marriage and previous partners and and even friendships and business partnerships, and I think that I am, I have tendencies tor disaster, and I'm wondering can one train oneself toward mastery? Absolutely absolutely. First of all, it's not. All skill based. We do a lot of kind of emotional searching, also helping people to connect with their own hearts, thereon, virtuality to some degree, their own existential sense of purpose life purpose, but to your question Dan, absolutely people can really change dramatically. So, if you're teaching yourself how to do this

What one has to do is basically learn a different way to speak in a different way to less so when one is speaking to their partner, particularly regarding conflict, the big mistake that people make is they'll describe their partner rather than themselves. Point out: the personality, flawed, the cracks in their partners, perfection when they're trying to bring up so the kind of issue that doesn't work because it will sabotage you getting listen to the partner, will become defensive and feel at tat. So they're not gonna, hear what you have to say. Instead, what we need to do is describe ourselves. This is the formula for it. Here is what I feel about. What's the situation, not

What about the personality of the partner? But what's the situation? That's eliciting feelings in you and what is your positive need? Positive need means. What is it your partner can do to shine for you. What who really want them to do as opposed to what you were sent here doing or you don't like that's the formula I feel about what and I need the listener is very helpful than if the listener can all just summarize a little bit of what they hear their partner sang and then ass. significant questions to understand the deeper subterranean level of what the speaker is trying to convey questions like? Are there some values or ethics or cub

guidelines that you're following some beliefs that are important to you in this position. You have how bout church childhood is there some background history? That's part of your position on this issue We have a beautiful intervention. We love it. It's called the dreams within conflict, it's where the listener ass. Those kinds of question Six in all my couple of others are: what would be your eye? old dream here and is an underlying purpose or all you have in your position on this issue. The illicit doesn't pay at their own position on the issue and tell the ape really understood the speakers point view. Then the rolls reverse. Then the listener had now become the speaker. Bring up there,

run position on the issue and the first partner now will summarize a little bit of what that partner is saying and then ass. Those same questions what's absolutely pivotal. Dan is that people have a deep understanding first before they move into compromise and resolution, and once they have that understanding we have a way of talking about compromise in which each partner separates out what they are influx, while about versus what they're more flexible about in their position on this same issue, because when people are asked to compromise on something that is so essential to their midst like giving up the book except their body, they're gonna get rigid and not compromise, but if that part that belief

poor need ride, deal dream can be preserved for each person as part of the compromise, then they can be flexible around the edges and reach a compromise. That's how it looks like a million plus because what you just said was fascinating. You said that web cardinal rule here, as I understand it, is really to use what some people might call, I language to talk about your own feelings, your own situation, as opposed to launching into a damning diagnosis of fear, interlocutor or partner, but it never appropriate to kindly describe problem

adequate challenging behavioral trend or pattern of thought in your partner. I'm not gonna work. There is no such thing as constructive criticism. That's what we found out. So, let's see, let me give you an example. If I were to say John, I love you deeply you're, absolutely wonderful, but you always leave the kitchen. A mass, ok he's gonna, feel defensive, he's gonna will respond by saying I always leave that a mass I cleaned up like six months ago. That's good enough right, sir

always and never our criticisms he's not gonna. Be able to hear that bit. If I say to him instead honey, I'm feeling annoyed and frustrated because the kitchen is a mass. Would you please clean it up this afternoon, totally different, totally different, response to it? It's kind of like you're, saying I as opposed to you you, you hear the difference. That's all it takes. right and another blueprint that wave devise. That is an important part of this approach. The conflict. Is a way of revisiting past regrettable incidents or pass fight that have driven an emotional wedge between partners and we the sitting that

regrettable incident and reprocessing at so you can understand your partner better and how you miss indicated there and really put those pastoral greater as in any rearview mirror, and so you get past them. Can you have successful conflict when only one side is following the rules, your rules be provident like the term rules, but is working within this context of constructive conflict or did both sides need to be. You know, engaged in the right way. You know I would say that it's not quite so black and white. So typically, what we see is one person is really following this blueprint: let's call it for how to bring up a problem, how to explore problem, how to work on compromise,

There may be a few partners out there that don't hear the changes and thus don't change themselves. But what I've seen at least is that often times the other person will soften they'll back down a little bit. They won't be quite as obstreperous they won't be. Is dominant or belligerent because there are not pushing against something it's like trying to push against a cloud there's a big difference between pushing against a cloud

And pushing against a raging ball, that's charging! You write, so it no longer is very functional for that partner to just keep pushing away at you or socking. You they're, not gonna. Do it typically as aggressively as you would think, and so one purse changing the system can actually have, I think, a moderating effect on the entire system between partners coming up. Julie lays out the godmother comprehensive theory of healthy relationships, and I ask both John Angelo how good they are at following their own advice? That's right! After this, as we had ended,

new year, can be challenging, as we all know, to try to keep things fresh. One way I plan on doing that is with my political, the Palatine Bike and bike plus are ringing in the new year with new classes, new music and new ways to keep things fun and motivating I've been using the pale time for a couple years now. It was especially helpful during the pandemic. and I'm still going strong for a limited time. Try the peloton at free for two months than its twelve ninety nine per month. After that new members only visit one palatine dot com, slash ass, to learn more that two months: free at o, n e p, L, o t, o and dot com offer expires January. Thirty. First, twenty two terms apply for twenty to. One of the positive changes I want to make is to make sure there is space for what matters most to me. Reading is a big part of back. That's where audible comes in with thousands of audio books, including new releases, podcast and audible originals

can enjoy all my audio entertainment and one at my favorite thing is getting to experience a title when narrated by an author, like Michelle Obama, becoming or review in classic titles, when read by one of my favorite actors, like Nicole Kidman, performing through the lighthouse by Virginia Bull when you as a new member, you can try audible, free for thirty days, visit Furthermore, dot com slash ten percent or text. Ten percent to five hundred five hundred, that's audible, dot com, slash ten percent or text ten percent to five hundred five hundred job before you refer this term, the theory or your theory. What is the theory, but we all the sound relationship house theory and the house that has, if you can imagine drawing of house that has seven floors, seven levels, and to wait bearing walls the

bearing walls are labelled, trust on the left, side and commitment on the right side and are the theory that Julie and devised this confirmable theory. So we can measure everything on the theory accurately in a clinic. office or our laboratory, and we have, in the theory basic, suggestions for how the levels relate. So the Three levels are the same relationship house. The bottom levels are the components of friendship and intimacy and they're called love map spill, love maps build fondness. admiration at sort of respect and affection system and turned toward your partners. Attempts to connect with Emotionally, your partners bids for connection and those three form the basis of connect intimacy in a relationship. Our theory says that if your

those are working. Well then, your overall perspective on the relationship tends to be much more positive and you The positive perspective rather negative perspective kind of your cost benefit analysis of the relationship. Much more on the positive side, then, on the negative side, you're more, like you give your partner the benefit of the doubt when you're partners grumpy, for example, and then the next level assembly, the palace deals with conflict honey. You deal with conflict. And what Bob and I discovered was that sixty nine percent of complex and a relationship of perpetual they don't ever get resolved there just based on personality differences Between partners and you have to really learn to accept your partners, differences and that's where the dreams with conflict blueprint comes in

as very important: thirty one percent or solvable, and then there are six skills, though we discover that facilitate the goal. Conflict which is mutual understanding conflict, does not dysfunctional, really gets it being able understand your park better and then the next level assimilation proposes making life dreams come true and the final level building a sense of shared meaning and purpose together. So we can measure all this and are basic idea and building a theory was, if you can measure it, you gotta bear and being able to build it. Then, if you can't measurement so you know what you're talking about then and build something. I didn t know how to build trust. We know how to this eroded and a relationship we know had impaired people, bill commensurate, says

this is the love of my life. A set of cherishing this person is the love of your life versus betrayal. We understand how betrayal happens as well. So the great thing The theory was that, first of all, mostly wrong at hypotheses when we started building Linda theory, and then I kept track of my hypotheses and on I'm sixty percent wrong. in my own. Situations about relationships. Sense, if I didn't collect data, would think I was a hundred percent. I now know from actually looking at the data most of my dears adjusts Bologna and in a way, really the laboratory that informs our knowledge and it has made this theory work overtime, both clinically and also in our research studies- testing the effectiveness of this year. I want to go back over the sound relationship house because it seems like you're, unified field there,

of love and get you annually to go through these seven levels here, because you ran through them pretty quickly, which I appreciate, but I think that a lot more to say, jittery, kaput a little bit. I'm looking at a drawing of the house. It has these two load bearing walls as you reference, they are trusting commitment and then the space of the house to take it by these seven levels, the lowest of which or the first of which is bills, love maps Julie. What does that mean? So young? Let me describe each level for you, Dan and for our audience bills. Love maps refer two, how well do you know your partners, internal world, how we do you know, feelings needs believe values, childhood history, most embarrassing moment in childhood, favorite novel favorite movie paper tree the way

that? We do. That is to ask our partner questions. You might remember that when you first day, did you ask your partner thing: like what brought you to Saint Louis. What do you like about here. Where did you grow up? We ask those questions in the beginning, but then, if we, met to one another start living together and or have children all the sudden life has taken up with an endless to do list and we forget to ask each other those kinds of questions, but the reality is that over time, each into dual is evolving in to a slightly different person, different feelings, thoughts needs and so on. So we have to keep it those questions through our time together to understand how our partner is changing so loved maps means being

able map the internal landscape. Who your partner is that's the first level then comes create, fondness and admiration and the big one about that is that all of us, no matter how long we ve been together. We need to hear words of care of fondness of love of respect and admiration. We need to hear the words we need to feel the expression of it in touch so that doesn't go way either need to. Heap expressing our fondness. Our care are love and our respect for one another. It's gotta come out of your mouth or out of your fingertips, never stop do We need lots and lots of that. That's the second level, the third

level. If we're going up the house, the third level we call turning toward- and this is an incredibly simple thing to do- What it means is, how do you respond to your partners bids for attention bids for interest? bid, even you know, for a deeper need, so, for example, of I'm looking at this

window- and I say, wow John look at that- gorgeous bird- that sitting right there in the tree. He has three options of how he can respond to me. He can either totally ignore me and keep reading his mathematics book. He can say something hostile like stop interrupted me I'm trying to read. So we call that turning against the first one was turning away with no response. This hostile one is turning against. Then. What can also do is you can look up, look out the window, look at the tree and say wow. That's it that's all it takes turning toward just to respond

it's a little positive response to your partners- be it for connection. We call that turning toward now, your partner may want to express deeper needs like honey. Would you you know, please do that Russia's tonight, I'm exhausted, or would you please drivers to the beach because I'm scared of driving at night, we can ask for things like that. We can ask for. Would you please clean up the kitchen? How does our part respond to those needs we found in the successful couples they responded to each other's bids for connection eighty five percent of the time right,

I always get out wrong hushed in it or it and the folks who did not do so well in the future, who are more the disasters. They responded. Thirty three percent of the time, so big difference between eighty six and thirty three, but it takes such a little thing like while or ha that's all. It takes that's a positive response, so that's turning toward the third level. The next level We call either the positive or negative perspective now that one really is not when you work on directly its related to what comes a budget which is more conflict related or below it. These three levels I just described, which are part of friendship. If you're in the positive perspective, you give your partner the benefit of the doubt,

let's say that I come down stairs. I had a bad night and I feel really grouchy and I snap at John Well, if he is in the negative perspective, he'll defensive he'll get angry. If he's in a positive perspective, he'll say to himself ha bet. She didn't sleep very well last night, I think I'll just give her a wide berth and he'll say. Can I make your coffee for you this morning? Perfect, that's the positive perspective is giving me the benefit of the doubt. He's not thinking, I'm just a mean rotten person. He's thinking Sutton must have gone wrong. Therefore, I'm not doing so well today, that's giving me the benefit of the doubt.

but that's the positive perspective when you're in the negative perspective, the opposite, your partner can look at you with a big smile and say God, you look gorgeous today. You'll hear it is criticism. Will you didn't say that to me yesterday? Why didn't you say it yesterday Jesus. You can't win when you're in the negative perspective aright. So that's that or if the level now, the fifth level we ve already been described, That's manage conflict so create good conflict management, so that was part How do you bring up an issue? How do you deepen your understand?

king of the issue. How do you build compromise? Also? How do you process password runnable incidents? You know those terrible big b you had in the past that created emotional wounds. How do you get past those, and we have a five step process? That's just. you too far? I've never seen it fail actually to really create healing around those password reasonable incidents and do some healing about emotional scar. Like thought laughed also in this conflict management, we also really teach how to take a break when you're physiology goes through the roof, when your heart rate is above

repeat some minutes. You flip your lead, as our dear friend and colleague, Dan Siegel would say, and you cannot access the part of your brain that hand problem solved that can listen well interpret accurately creatively problem solve. Instead, you simply feel attacked and you go into fighter for that's what happens when you could be sitting there, ass calmly, ass John and I are but your heart rates or above a hundred beats a minute or if your athletic above about eighty beats a minute, then your mass urine I'd or flight. So you need a break ritual way to take a break and back away until you can self soothed by telling you

partner when y'all come back to talk before you take the break, then self soothing without thinking about the fight, if you think about the fight bill, stay flooded, that's not going to help you, so you have to do something to strap. seeing and calming like reading a magazine. Reading a book listening to music going for a run, doing meditation doing some wine for meditation, is one fall for this particular problem of people getting flooded so that when you

come there, you're in a much more composed state com and gentle, where you can really hear your partner better and speak in a kinder wage. Your partner about the issue you were discussing, that's all part of that fifth level of conflict management. Then the sixth level is honour each other's dreams. I love that once so. In that one, that's actually a part of conflict to because often times when we are really is God's dinner, a position on an issue that we just can't give it up. There is usually an underlying tree men there, something that's really important to you like getting have time alone or being able to connect with friends

more than you actually have you know whatever it is it some poor, Kneader or dream? And when you work on conflict and work on compromise, its super important to understand, and each other's underlying dreams and then try to build a compromise that honours each other's underline dreams that a very important piece of the work that we really given to folks. Finally, the upper level, the seventh level we call creating shared meaning and here's where this comes from,

there's a big miss out there that you ve gotta, have exactly the same interests the same mission, the same goals, the same purpose. It's not true, that's not what we mean by creating shared meaning. What you have to do is be able to talk about those and describe those with one another and have a partner whose curious about what gives your life, meaning and purpose and a partner wants to share it's their life, meaning and purpose, even if its confused there feeling lost where they travelling in turn away. Every person is a philosopher, every person

such a life journey. We humans are meaning makers right and so talking about this upper level of the sound relationship house. What gives our life meaning and purpose is some of the strongest glue that bonds to people together? That's it the seven levels sound relationship house well done up curious, new sternly non attached to this. If you want to, but how well, you feel that you each do in and keeping up these seven levels yourselves. After all these years, of studying and teaching a much better than we were at the beginning. You know I have to say there stand. We are absolutely not gurus

we do not belong on a pedestal. You know who does all the couples that came into our research lab they were the teachers, they were the ones who taught us what successful couples do so we're all in the same soup, so some time we do it well, one sometimes we die. and then we have to process. We have to talk to one another and just bring up our hurt. Feelings are resentments or bring up, and issue that hasn't been resolved. Try to do our best with it to process a regrettable incident and every one of our workshops, a real one that we have had and

We ve been doing this for twenty six years and whenever the loss regrettable and talk about the serious, a guys we're just like you, we struggle and that's what relationships are about us about. Doing their work, so you can really keep understand each other over time. True enough, the more I hear you talk about your own, our ability to more. I believe you Here, we'll talk more about it. That's not a bid, wrote that in these areas to health disclosure idle tat, let me tell you about what he last drove me: unbelievable, coming up the garden, explain how and why betrayal or infidelity occurs in relationships and how to avoid it. They also talk about the double edged sword of humor, something I've wrestled with, and they share some stunning data about the stakes of getting your relationships right. That's after this

Rick, there's power and getting together with the people you love, maybe getting together with your people, mean reconnecting with your childhood friends or watching them with their college, teammates foreseen your new baby me, your best runs baby for the first time. One thing is clear: Today's families don't often live in the same city, let alone have a single place to come home to verbal knows. The best places with your people, with millions of vacation homes, your place can be anything from a charming mounting cabin or Lakeside Lodge to a city, apartment or luxury hope verbal homes provide Spain in comfort. You need to focus on the people who matter visit verbal dot com or download the verbal out to find the perfect vacation home for your people. Verbal a place, or together quality sleep is more important than ever as we keep our daily lives balanced and healthy, and twenty twenty two, a good night's sleep is assent.

For boosting energy recovery and overall well being, and sleep number We simply smart beds can help you achieve that this I'm aiming to improve by sleep efficiency by keeping track of my sleep, help the sleep number three, sixty smart, but so's you a daily snapshot of factors that can dramatically effectively polity like duration, patience and timing proven quality. Sleep is life, changing sleep which starts with sleep number, adjust stability, it's time for sleep numbers, ultimate sleep number of that state Fifty percent, on the sleep number three Sixty limited edition: smart bed for special financing for a limited time. Only ITALY, member stores or sleep number dot com, slash happier, subjects accredited, provoke minimum monthly payments required Cecily number dot com, slash happier for details, laboratories Note here, because each as I listen to you speak, you say things that I want a circle back to. So our I want a circle back to a few things that you ve little nuggets you

dropped along the way that I think might be worthy of further explication? John, at one point many minutes ago, you said thing about in your research you, you came to understand how and why betrayal happens right. Can you talk about that sure, and this knowledge is built on the lifelong work of a woman named Carol Raw Carol really taught us about commitment and what she wound up unveiling is that there is a choice, point in a relationship that have it's quite often when things aren't going well between. To people in a relationship there's a choice Point where you can either say, and I'm really going to talk to my partner about this, because I'm disappointed or I'm angry or my feelings are hurt. I'm going to talk to my partner about this issue or you can decide to talk.

about your partner to another person and complain to another person about what you are suffering and death, Choice point turns out to be very critical. If you give voice to your complaints, you really showing that you have invested everything all your eggs are in one basket therein. This relationship and you going go talk to partner self? I'm really upset with Joey I'm going to go talk to her about it and part of It goes along with that giving voice to those complaints when the chips, you're down when things are going well. Is that I cherish that I love about her and nobody can replace, are She is the love of my life, so I'm going to talk to her about making more unhappy. Whereas if I go talk to somebody else tat, I lady down a Starbucks who a section I smile and is so welcoming and has the funny umbrella- and I complained to her about Julie what doing cow Russell showed. Is that I'm thinking

and all I can do better than joy is released, get out there that compares Morpheus. a boy I'm magnify Julie's faults when I do that, If I talk to her about my issues, I We managed her positive qualities and cherish dogs. so Carol showed that we do decide to be loyal once at the way ceremony of the commitments ceremony. Words signing in every day, all the time to we cherish what we have or think degree. since a greener somewhere else, and Betrayal is actually built over time and loyal He is also built over time, and you know it's really either cherishing your partner or trashing your partner in your mind and that's the central. That's going on. It's really in some ways the slope process

rail doesn't happen overnight. It gets built over time and loyalty happen overnight. It gets built over time and so the same thing with trust me also learned that trust is about thinking for to all the time. Thinking about not just what benefits me, but what benefits my partner and looking to maximize benefits for both of us, whereas you were road trust by just thinking, that's what you need, regardless of what your partner needs, and then it becomes a zero sum game, you're, exercising your benefits, regardless of what whether I heard your partner not so, that's kind of what we ve learned about commitment, entrusting knowing we can actually see how couples build trust and commitment over I'm. So we can help people one. It's eroded how to rebuild it. I assume that you're not saying that

successful relationship. There is never any inert action of your partner, but that, in dead. When you notice in a successful relationship that the trashing is happening, you try to bring that your partner in a constructive way, rather than venting on constructively to others, which would so the seeds exactly That's what counts Russell found it. She called it in the investment model in five invested everything in this relationship Julie, love of my life, nobody can take place. If I'm unhappy, I I have to talk to her about it. I've gotta tell her. What's really bugging me and I give myself permission to complain about her to somebody else. You talk about it. And but MAR my mind immediately. What with that is to a type of bias that debt psychologists have noticed, which is this? Some cost bias that each year

I've already spent five dollars on this, so I might as well. You know it's been a million mark as I'm already investing, but aren't there are times when we should divest from unhealthy relationships, and how do you talk to people who, you think might actually be better off? Separate f folks are in therapy, and one person just has absolutely no feeling whatsoever left over for the partner and I'm saying they're, not angry they're not heard there not fury ass, they are apathetic, they have no feeling, then that's a time when a couple of a separate another time is when one person is a batter. Were the other person

The victim and domestic violence is an interesting category. John, with his colleague, Neil Jacobson did a nine year long study on domestic violence couples and they found true types of domestic violence. Only twenty percent of those domestically violent couples where what we call character a logic

domestic violence. Those are the ones that need to split up. What's happening there is the perpetrator, takes no responsibility for the violence. Blames around the victim causes major injury, terrible injury and possibly even deaf to the partner or to the partners, children or their own children, and no matter what the victim says. The violence doesn't stop, but that only twenty percent of domestic violence couples the other eighty percent, so in the other situational domestic violence, the violence is not. Typically, major violence, The violence occurs because the partners both get flooded so there's that physiological

flooding showing up again. They get so upset that they both go window fighter flight and they don't have a way to take a break. don't they stay engaged they stay together and because of that, the quarrel gets me more escalated to the point where they collide physically, they I really want to change their both taking full on responsibility for that's eighty percent, of our domestic. We treat governess sorry than we can treat those comments. Yes, I was gonna say thank you he's from New York I'm from or again I talk really slowly, hilltops really fast. So if I pies he thinks I'm not turn away you're describing him. Thus so what

concern is that we created actually a treatment for couples where situational domestic violence. Not only are eliminated. The violence at the end of the treatment, but a year and a half after the treatment ended. There was still. No violence hostility why does much lower? There was great or friendship and so on joy. I want to go back to something you said very early in the conversation where I use the term skills based, yet not everything we teach is skills base, sometimes its deeper work and a kind of went over, I had in the moments I'd love to hear more about what you meant by that ok. So a lot of people mistakenly think that were behaviorist sets a form of psychology that just works to change behaviour or

learn new skills, so you're trying to make the couples better mechanics. Well, we do much more than that in a lot of people who come into therapy not only half relationship problems, but they ve got a laudable bag, all pain, old trauma from either earlier relationships or childhood backgrounds, or so, as I mentioned earlier, we combat bets, they ve lived life and they are covered with scars. So can you just change somebody's skills and expect to hear of a great relationship well now, because that individual oftentimes has a very troubled relationship with himself herself for them self. Dad

his agony for them, and that agony is manifesting in what Martin Buber would called the between that space between partners. That can either be a beautiful golden warm sphere or a fragmented, sharp barbed fence. So one has to work in relationship therapy, with what is the person bringing into the session in turn away each individual and to draw that out, so that there is greater understanding of the other partner for this person and vice versa. So we have to die deep. Also, it's really wonderful to help couples develop way,

of connecting with themselves at a deeper level. Some mindfulness is one of the ways to do that: meditation different ways. of calming and connecting with the most internal deepest parts of them elves, so that when they go to connect with their partner and speak to their partner, there, not just speaking superficial we are using the right proper, language. There are also able to express their deepest followed, her ability, you know their sole if you will so that the other person can respond with more compassion. To wear that speakers, from that's what I mean by were not just scale based got it John, as you know, we're coming up on Valentine's day

and I know that you actually like to talk about You call small things often what is that here as good question down part of what we ve done in over by having a laboratory with three cameras: Baltic to the wall. is that we can see moment to moment couples either canoe thing or failing to connect and they're just there free, tiny moments. There are moments when one person He wants to have more affection or wants to say something nice to partner, or There is one person is annoyed or irritated. So there are these emotional moments that modern times people dont really attend to but if you actually attend to what your partner is asking for in that moment, thinking about what you partner needs and also,

in touch with your own feelings in their mama, expressing your affection your admiration for your partner or just gratitude first, small, things that habit of mine of noticing what your part, is doing right and expressing gratefulness is very powerful an Julian. I always saying things like thanks for making the coffee or accept making them or for you really hot as morning, I'm having all these include thoughts about you. I joined the conversation, the dinner or you know, baby I'm really need an adventure with you here. I work. leave this rain. climate, let's go somewhere sunny, maybe this summer, let's take a break. Patient Arizona or someplace that sunny and these small extent josie small moments of connection positive.

the gratefulness really mount up. They actually to bill kind of an emotional bank account site, depositing into a bank account but you're, depositing something you're, creating a cushion basically four leaner times in a when things are Why so? Well, so I'd just a bit of mindfulness really leads to a habit of mind why you're noticing all the stuff, your partners, doing, that you don't notice that that positive perspective is so important and research. done by two women. Having observers in couples, homes just looking at positive things. They did for one another in an evening hour, Robinson and price discovered that the problem is not happy. Relationships is not that people need to be more positive instead, need to notice the positivity that's already there, and that was just a brilliant study, because

this initially thought well for couples unhappy, they're, probably not doing nice thanks for each up, but it turns out they are, but their partners just not noticing it they're, brushing it off. So the small things often is about not only doing small things but noticing what your partners doing as a contribution and your life and its it becomes a habit of mind small steps towards one another, often really bills. This emotional bank account Julie, I've how to be good here about not asking too many selfish questions as the host. But I do want asked, which is an area where I have struggled. I think it's both a service strengthen a weakness, and I suspect this is not rare is humor so- I can you humor and away in my marriage. But in a lot of my relationships to put people Eddie, and often to make one myself a little bit, but it can

also be a little sharp or it can be dissociated in other words, I'm trying to avoid what somebody's trying to point tat- and I wonder you could talk a little bit about this double edged sword of humor God. What a great question can sell. You're. Absolutely right I mean humor is actually one of the strong, connectors in couples when both people share a similar sense of humour, so one person really gets the others. So, said humor. However, there can be time when humor is used to deflect away from a sensitive topic. That's goes deeper and typically, that topic is something that is anxiety, provoking or painful for the individual who is using the humour to brush it off.

to minimize it to not feel it. That's that dissociation dont want to feel it other person than may feel, literally flashlight off The miser or distanced can pushed away, and so it's a way of disconnecting from the other person and the way the partner can respond to. That is simply saying. You know what this is serious for me. Can we not use human right now now notice the use of we? Can we not use humor by saying it that way? The partner is not finger pointing at you and blaming you for doing something bad there just saying, let's get humor out of the picture. Ok, because this is a key topic when you're tendency is to

his humour, if you can be mindful of that as distant sure and say, God. I really want to tell a joke right now. I think I must be anxious talking about this and translate the urge to crack a joke in to what emotion is beneath this urge to crack a joke. That is enough What's your needing to say instead, the other thing that I wanted to say about humor and relationships. How it's a two edged sword. It can be a great connector, but also probably the trickiest, sharp edge of humor is sarcasm. and when you use sarcasm at the minimizing up your partner at the kind of attack of your partner, we call that contempt

it's actually a way of really putting down your partner from a position of superiority and using your sarcastic humor or mockery as a way of putting down your partner content is one of our four horsemen of the apocalypse, one of the big predictors. In fact it's one of the biggest predictors relationship demise over time, and not only does contempt predict relationship demise, it's like sulphuric acid, also for the immune system of listener the number of times these listener hears sarcastic contempt in, let's say a fifteen minute com per se,

correlates directly with how many infectious illnesses that listener is gonna have in the coming year. So it's One really has to watch yourself. You know that humor becomes sharp, edged either joys, absolute right, but may say something in there answered of humor? I saw her. very interesting because it really lowers physical, go arousal and very powerfully. So being able laughing yourself being able to can you partner to laugh with you really a wonderful thing, and especially powerful during conflict, reduce physiological arousal, so We were really wondering: how can I get people to laugh more at themselves? during conflict and it turned out that the answer was in those small moments, often it said turning toward your partner. If you increase,

the turning toward that sort of mine for sensitivity, of what your partner needs or just noticing the positive things your partner does. If you increase that toward you automatically get more humor during conflict. We ve talked about so many aspects of healthy relation. It's an edge wonder if you could articulate what you believe. The stakes are here for four society of the work that you are it was a great question. Then, is a field? that developed very much in parallel to Bob, and my research all social epidemiology, which SK covered that the basis of health. long longevity is the quality of people's closest relationships, their friendships, their relationships with their feet, Emily and their love relationships in this field was

started by a guy named lens sign at university, California, Berkeley, and it turns out that in modern society the basis for lunch Poverty is really the quality of your close relationships. It actually predicts how your immune system functions, because her unhappy relationships were chronically sick. Creating stress hormones It is on adrenaline and is wearing away, our ability to fire infection. So relationships turn out to be really important in a when there's a pandemic, for example tax for my seniority a lot of time, This comes from. Our relationship is not working very well free, the person and if you can help people really improve the quality of their relationships and get closer than Europe. Extending their life by an average of seventeen years.

It's a very dramatic effect, Not only are people healthier narrowly, they live longer, but they recover from illness more quickly and there are lessons susceptible to infection and, in fact, all through their body There is less inflammation going on. In their heart in their lungs and their gee, I system and in their generals, so their funds, better, so that relationships turn out to be very powerful, projecting go endless and mental illness as well or health. The fascinating and it is a great weight think about the stakes of this work in our remaining moments. I wonder if I could get both of you to describe some of the resources that you have on offer for people who might want to investigate further, cooperation with some of your insights at the common institutes.

Have many different resources for couples we have. of online courses for learning all of the ways that you can him prove your relationships, strengthen your relationship. There is an online course called the art and science of love. That's easily it sensible and wonderful were also developing an app and that app is called Gottman connect and it is absent, We wonderful it has ways built in to the EP where're. You can either a Ossetia relationship as if you were in the love lab itself, but now just in the privacy of your own home of therapist, isn't necessary annual Gatt full feedback about how your relationship is doing the strengths and challenges and you'll be pointed to particular interventions or

sir sizes, that are on the app tat will strike can you relationship were pretty sure and those include little Betty videos of John or I teaching a little bit about that particular exercise and why its nest sorry, as well as hilarious videos about how not to do the exercise as well as how to do the exercise. In addition, we have lots of books out there eight dates, our latest book that we just love and it's not just for couples who have recently met and are wanting to have interesting conversations. These are chapters of structure, commerce, since you couldn't have no matter how long you been together to learn much more about who your partner is. Regarding things?

like money parenting. How you prefer to do conflict you're not having them in these conversations, but how you prefer to manage or conflict virtuality adventures he had funding play, there's all kinds of things we have at the Gottman Institute well a whole sat. free card decks. Or an app and those car Dexter. Wonderful. They lead you right into some of the ways of managing you're relationship in a much better health. your way, so those are free and easily accessible at the Goblin Institute, and probably one of the best primers. I guess for everything that we ve ever done is the book that John wrote called the seven principles for making marriage work. That's sweet sweet one that eight dates is great with that lots

If there is betrayal, a wonderful book is what makes love last, which describes how We get to betrayal as well as how to heal from betrayal and also if you're, really looking for a therapist at the Gottman Institute, we have what's called the goblin, were furled network that has a map showing gottman trained therapists, where they practice all over the world actually, but especially all over the United States and some in Canada to so that all the Goblin Institute, Gottman dark up, gottman dot com right. Well, this was a delight. Thank you. Fur come in on a really appreciated. Thank you raise many rate interview thanks so much less fun. Thank you again to Julian John thanks as well too.

but who worked so hard to make the show a reality. Samuel Johnson, Gabrielle, Sacrament, Dj Cashmere Justine Day came back among Maria, were challenged and plant without engineering from our good friends over at ultraviolet audio. See you all on Wednesday, four, a brand new episode. My interviewee will be Arthur Brooks from Harvard and the Atlantic. There be talking about what I call the Good NEWS about your eventual decline. We all decline professionally, much sooner. The research shows that many of us might think, and there are ways to prepare, for it now said that the second half of your life and career can sore. That's but upon on Wednesday. I hate stand Harris from ten percent

here you tune in every week to hear I really helpful conversations with some of the leading meditation happiness and my fulness experts. So what if I told you that they should be ten times, maybe thirty time for making this? but much more impact for when combined with the ten percent happier at on the you get to listen and learn to incorporate the concepts we talk here on the show into your daily practice. To your mind, when you mastered the basics of meditation, you can dive deeper into the practice with our singles courses and challenges The ten percent happier app is available right now to download wherever you get your apps. What up a Matthew Hepburn when I tell people on a meditation teacher, I get asked a lot of the same actions. Can I meditate lying down? Yes, what? If Ivan Ich, go ahead sky If I sit for long enough, can I transcend space and time time? Yes, but not space. If your fan of ten percent

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