The Paramount plus original series, the good fight starring, Christine Borinsky in Order Mcdonald is finally back in the news he's in Diane questions, whether its appropriate to help run an african american law firm with Liz when they lose their two top lawyers. Meanwhile, Marisa in the firm, become entangled with how Wagner played by Mandy Potemkin Chicago Native, who runs his own court room in the back of a coffee shop. The new season of the good- is now streaming exclusively on paramount, plus had to paramount plus dot com to try it free pinterest where you find a do the things you actually enjoy. It is just the opposite of the doom scrolling that can really take over other social media. He might start out just thinking what, if I learned, it makes them historical costumes and then later what you're actually finding out is that you have a deep and abiding love for making historical pottery centrists, diverse creators, help you find what you enjoy doing so surprise yourself with what you can get into Interest welcome to stuff

missed in history glass. A production of Iheart radio hello, and welcome, cast I'm Tracy Wilson and I'm Holly fry last time. We talked about operation paperclip, also known as project paper. But does the effort to bring german scientists engineers than other specialists to the United States after world war? Two and this built on no your programme that was called operation overcast and that had given the same types of specialists, short term contracts to do their work in Germany or to work in the United States under military supervision, but under operation paperclip most of those specialists that were brought to the. U S actually got the opportunity to become: U S, citizens about one thousand, six hundred tonnes,

specialist entered the US through this program and more than ninety percent of the ones who arrived between one thousand. Nine hundred and forty five and one thousand nine hundred and fifty two when on to become US citizens for the most part they were recruiting relatively young, They were mostly under the age of forty when they left Germany, although most of them started out working for a branch of the military about ten percent were initially hired at the Department of Commerce, so we talked about last time, but for a super, quick weak recap and his folks had skip that episode win. This programme was established. It was taken as a given that most of these people had at least some involvement with the it's a party in the words of a joint intelligence objectives. Agency report quote such membership was due to exigencies which influence the lives of every citizen of Germany. At that time,

but especially in the early years of the programme. There were also a whole lot of assurances that the people who are being targeted for this worthy quote good Germans and that they would all be pre screens to confer that they were not ardent Nazis, though it's possible many or maybe even most, of the people who came to the? U S through the programme really did meet these criteria, but others definitely did not, and this was just a matter of nazis and war criminals managing to evade detection, the people and agencies, Were involved with running this programme intentionally obscured the most damning details from candidates backgrounds, especially if their knowledge and expertise seems particularly valuable, so my intent had been

talk about this programme and then talk about some of the more well known people who are part of it. I it turned out that just talking about the programme was a whole episode by itself. So today we are going to talk about a few of the most famous, an infamous paper clippers, some of whom are connected to some truly horrific crimes. So probably the most famous of all of the operation, paperclip specialists was Verne of unbroken his thesis for his Phd in physics had involved rocket thrust engines which came out of work that did at come, restore army proving grounds under another future paper clipper, Sir Walter are Doorn Burger. This work had been, did by the german army over I'm Browns Rockets had potential as a weapon. His real interest was space and in a lot of ways he used the military promise of his work as a means to an end,

one point he was quoted. As saying quote: we felt no moral scruples about the possible future use of our brain child. We were interested solely in exploring space. It was simply a question with us of how the golden cow could be milked most successfully by one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven. The german army had outgrown the Kumer store facility and needed a more remote location to conduct rocket test, so the team moved to Pina Munda on the coast of the Baltic Sea VON Braun came the technical directorate Pino under Monday at the age of just twenty five that same year he also exe didn't an invitation to join the Nazi Party list he also joined the should start up or s s where he ultimately became a stern. Fear or major Van Brown and the tea at penal under developed the weapon that would become known as the v to transfer

from German as the vengeance weapon to which was the first long range ballistic missile and nine. In forty three. The allies bombed this facility. So all the weapons, development and production operation there were moved underground, but using an old mines, houses an EU that became known as metalwork people we're being imprisoned at the middle bow. Dora concentration, camp Complex were forced to work in truly whore fine conditions, including digging out better is by hand with nowhere to sleep and no hygiene facilities. Most people being held at middle, bowed DORA were political prisoners from multiple countries, especially this Union, Poland and France jewish and Romany prisoners began to be deported to the camp after the spring and fall of nineteen. Forty four, the youth Evan Slave labor at metalwork continued after the facility was finished, with the prisoners, building the weapons that were being produced there,

According to briny Krim, author of our Germans project, paperclip in the national security state, more people died building v to Rockets than were actually killed through their use as a weapon between August of nineteen. Forty three in April of nineteen, forty five at least sixty thousand people were forced to work on these weapons and at least twenty thousand of them died of things like starvation, illness, exe, fusion's suicides and just being worked to death officials at the facility also carried out, at least to mass hangings, one impact Hitler was carried out in a very gruesome way, with the other prisoners forced to witness it. Some other rockets had except did on the launch pad raising suspicions that some one was sabotaging them and that hanging, was meant to deter future sabotage. Although many of the staff-

work that Pinamonte were transferred to middle work and worked on site there for Brown actually worked elsewhere, but he did tour. This facility, at least once He knew about the terrible conditions and the use of enslaved labour there. At one point, he testified at the trial of three s: s members who had worked at the middle bout. Dora comes tracing camp Complex and he acknowledged the appalling conditions and the use of a slave labour. In that testimony in nineteen, forty, four, the Gestapo arrested VON Brown and held him for about two weeks, sources for about exactly what prompted this arrest. In some accounts he was be, really disparaging about Germany's chances to win the war, and he was only released after Doorn Burger convinced the gestapo that he was critical to missile production. This arrest sometimes comes up as evidence VON Brown, wasn't a quote real Nazi and had only been involved in the Nazi Party and the S S out of self

innovation or even opportunistic motives or because he had perhaps been coerced in this ring of nineteen forty five, as Germany was rapidly losing ground in the war, the Soviet Red Army was advancing toward VON Browns location. He endorse burger both believe that the United States would see them as assets and surrender owing to the Americans, would be really preferable to being captured by the Soviets, so they and many of their colleagues fled and went into hiding, even though Hitler had ordered the destruction of anything that could be useful to the allies on Brown hid, his research work and he your went back and retrieved it on my second nineteen, forty five VON Brown Doorn Berger and one hundred twenty six principle, engineers from middle work, surrendered to enemy can gee I'm they had sent VON Brown. younger Brother Magnus to make contact with the Americans both because he was the most million with the english language, and because he,

knew how critical it was to keep the details of what was happening in middle work secret. Joseph Stalin was not pleased with this at all. He reportedly said quote: this is absolutely intolerable. We defeated the Nazi armies, we occupied Berlin and Penal Buddha, but the America he's got the rocket engineers. What could be more revolting and more inexcusable and why was this allowed to happen once from Brown to the. U S. He worked at white sands proving ground in New Mexico, where he helped a mirror: enforces learn about and learn to use the veto rockets that he had developed in nineteen. Forty seven, when he was thirty I've he returned to Germany to marry Marie Louise VON Quiz drop, who was his eighteen year old? Second cousin ass

his return. He went on to become director of the: U S: Army, ballistic missile Agency in Huntsville, Alabama, where he help develop the Redstone rocket, which was based on the veto. The redstone was a ballistic missile that could carry a nuclear payload bomb Brown started form Lee proposing plans for space exploration around nineteen? Fifty four, but the army really wanted him to keep focusing on weapons development. He eventually got his wish, though after NASA was established, he became director of the George see marshals his flight Centre and Huntsville Alabama. When Eleanor Her junior became the first American in space and nineteen sixty one. The launch vehicle was a modified Redstone rocket which bond Brown had helped to develop. The also led the team that develop the Saturn five rocket for the APOLLO project in addition to being such a major part of the space programme from Brown, became a public face for space exploration in nineteen. Fifty five

He appeared on the magical world of Disney episodes, man in Space man, The moon and Mars and beyond. He appeared multiple other documentaries in the nineteen fifties and sixtys, and was also a technical advisor for Disney hero, multiple looks, and he was on the cover of time magazine in nineteen. Fifty eight one of the reasons that there are still some question marks about VON rounds, motivations decisions before and during World WAR too, if he died and nineteen seventy seven at that point, most of the documents related to operation paperclip, we're still classified that was also before the Office of special investigations, opened its investigation into VON Browns colleague, Arthur Rudolf, which we mentioned in the previous episode. He'll come up again later the o s. I actually and even been established. Yet when VON Brown died, while there has definitely been vocal critics of project paperclip for most of its existence in nineteen, seventy,

and there was still a general belief that ardent Nazis and war criminals had been kept out of the programme and viable himself had critics as well as one example: Tom where're satirical Song Vernon Brown included such lyrics as once the Rockets are up who here's where they come down. That's not my department says Vernon. On Brown but in general, after his death VON Brown was widely eulogized. President Me Carter called him a man, a bold vision and said quote two million, of Americans, Verna VON Browns name was inextricably linked to our exploration of space into the creative application of technology. not just the people of our nation, but all the people of the world have profited from his work. We welcome sinew to profit from his example today, historians and biographers have

argued that VON Brown was everything from an opportunity to join the Nazis out of sheer necessity to an ardent work, criminal who never face justice, what's clearest that he was definitely a member of the Nazi party and of the S s, but he knew about the use of slave labour and the terrible conditions at middle work and that conflict he was at just a minimum complicit in all of that. He was also present for at least one meeting in which Middle works General Director George Ricky, planned out back position of french prisoners of war or to use this forced labour he also developed away, Then the Germany deployed against allies of the United States killing at least five thousand people, but then he became a. U S: citizen and nineteen. Fifty five we just mentioned Arthur Rudolf and since we only covered him briefly in the earlier episode, he

is where we are going to pick up, but first, you you're, going to pause for a little sponsor break racial tension, Covin cases, leadership, departures, the hit paramount, plus original series. The good fight is back minutiae of the good fight starring, Christine Borinsky, an Otter Mcdonald follows the events after the historic January sixth insurrection and introduces Carmen a new young lawyer played by Charmaine being what who's famously disgraced clientele raises. The question: does everyone have the right to a defence Diane, also questions whether its approach, We at the help run an african american law firm with lives when they lose their two top lawyers plus Marisa end. The firm become entangled with how Wagner played by Mandy Potemkin Chicago Native, who runs his own court room in the back of a coffee shop. You don't want to miss the reopening of this office stream. The new season of the good fight exclusively on Paramount Plus, had to paramount plus dot com to try it free

in contrast, is where you find and do the things you actually enjoy. We have all been guilty myself more than anyone of being on social media platforms and kind of scrolling and looking at things that are free, treating her, make you angry or just kind of field despondent about the state of the world, but on Pinterest, you can find things and do things and enjoy the things that just might surprise you. You might start out looking for pictures of your favorite historical figure and before you know it, you are booking millinery class, you make a hat that looks just like yours or I recently was looking at images of tropical print fabrics and somehow I found myself signing up to take hawaiian language classes, just fun, reliable and enrich my life time is precious so give it,

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really freely to things that don't give us anything in return. So Pinterest is an invitation to reclaim some of that time, explore with it experiment with it and put purpose to how we spend it. Pinterest diverse creators help you and what you enjoy doing with fresh actionable ideas that try to get you back in motion, exploring what's possible, trying new things and moving forward again, surprise yourself with what you can get into on Pinterest. Either way it offers in Germany on November, ninth, nineteen o six and he infernal Run Brown later became colleagues that penal Buddha after the allies BAR Peter Moody Rudolf became the operations director and the deputy production manager at the underground middle work facility in the prior

so on operation paperclip. We talked about the criteria for determining who was a so called ardent Nazi, because ardent Nazis were supposed to be kept out of the programme an ardent Nazi was generally defined. As someone who had joined the Nazi Party before Hitler had declared himself here, who was leader in the party or in one of its affiliated organizations like the S S or the same, who had been convicted in a post war de notification Court or who had been accused or convicted of war crimes. So rude off, joined the Nazi Party AL known as the national socialist german Workers party and then abbreviated in German as LSD, AP in nineteen thirty one that was six years but governor run Brown joined and three years before, Hitler declared himself purer and early

team thirty. If he had also been in the reserve and in other Nazi connected organizations when Rudolf was first screened for potential inclusion in operation paperclip his interrogator, made. This notation quote one hundred percent, Nazi, that's all caps, dangerous type, security threat, exclamation, points suggest internment, but in spite of that, their vehement initial assessment, when the is a military government. United States filed its report on Rudolph. It concluded that he was not an ardent nazi when Rudolph was interrogated as part of this process, he gave his reasons for joining the Nazi Party this way until one thousand nine hundred and thirty. I sympathize

Social Democratic Party and voted for it and was a member of a Social Democratic Union. After one thousand nine hundred and thirty that you can onicle situation became so serious that it appeared to me to be headed for catastrophe. I really became unemployed and one thousand nine hundred and thirty two, the great amount of unemployment caused. The expansion of the national socialist and communist parties frightened that the latter would become the government. I joined the nsdap illegally regulated ready to help. I believed in the preservation of the western culture: the: U S, army; ok, a slightly edited version of this statement to release to the public, which ended quote during the last few years. whose political developments became more and more serious, but I could not foresee this result. When I entered the party Rudolf was one of the first german specialists to enter the Eu S under operation paperclip. He arrived in nineteen, forty five and his wife and his daughter.

Followed him later like burner on brown. He started out working for the ordinance Department of the research and development division under the Department of the army at various points. The FBI investigated ham as part of his applications for security clearance and his application to work at Massa. In the reports from these investigations sees generally described as an excellent production. Engineer personally liked by his colleagues conscientious honest, trustworthy and not a potential threat to national security. However, during an investigation in nineteen fifty three someone reported that he had been a loyal member of the FDA p and was quote the type of person who would not stop at anything if it, further his ambitions. He had a record nation of being a person who, in his enthusiasm for the nazi regime, could be dangerous to a fellow employees who did not guard his language that person they gave that state.

Whose name is rejected from the FBI file. That's available on the web later walk that statement back and said that they didn't mean to why that Rudolf was an ardent nazi but anyway, ambitious and would do whatever it took to achieve his goals. So rude off became a. U S on November, eleventh nineteen fifty for his work at NASA included being one of the primary architects of the Saturn five rocket, he retired from NASA and nineteen. benign and from there he became a consultant. He had received NASA's distinguished service award, which has the agency's highest honour as well as other awards, as we discussed in the previous episode. The office of special investigation started an investigation into Rudolf after Eli Rosenbaum found references to him in a couple of books. He picked up at a bookstore in nineteen eighty, this investigation that officials in both the U S and West Germany had described

off as a war. Criminal Rudolf was also Astrand in nineteen forty seven as officials were preparing to try, nineteen people who are suspected of war crimes. At the door and Nord Housing Complex during my questioning Rudolf said he had attended the public mass hanging that we described earlier. as operations directorate middle work. He had also personally receive reports about how many prisoners were available to work. How many had recently arrived and how when he had died or were too ill to work. His office was also right next to where the public hanging took place. Rudolf maintained his innocence in all of this, but at the same time according to transcripts of o s eye interviews. He confirmed that he knew that prisoners were dying at the facility. There is also a clear paper trail connecting him to the EU. and slave labour and prisoner abuses that middle work, the ultimate

he agreed to renounce his: U S, citizenship and return to Germany, rather than face a trial for all of this. At the time he was seventy. Seven, the west german government wasn't really pleased about this. Since you S, officials took this step without informing them ahead of time west german authorities started their own investigation. But by that point the We think that was still within the statue of limitations. murder and there wasn't enough evidence to try Rudolf on that specific charge rid off spent most of the rest of his life, trying to clear his name and to return to North America, even though he had agreed to leave. After. U S, officials denied his request to have his citizenship restored. He tried to enter Canada, but was denied here as well. During his hearing with canadian authorities, canadian lawyers produced a memo that he had written, describing the use of slavery,

add another facility and an admiring way and requesting such a set up for his own project, like canadian court ruled that he had quote called for made, use of and directed the enslaved labourers at middle work, Rudolf, never return to North America and he died and ninety ninety six some of the documentation and statements related to Arthur Rudolf Work in Nazi Germany came to light as part of it. Destination into one of his and run browns. Colleagues, George Rick High Director general at middle work requires background was a lot like Rudolf. He had joined the Nazi Party in nineteen thirty one and went to work for the Reich Ministry four armament and munitions Rick. I had become an expert in underground construction, help, design the underground b to factory at middle work, an Hitler's underground bunker, as well as other facilities, to be very clear that

that underground middle work facility had virtually no ventilation and no plumbing people used oil barrels as toilets and for most of the facilities operation. The prisoners were sleeping on the ground, so we're not saying but this design was good or humane, but underground construction like this had become his specialty. He specialised in being horrible. while Rudolf, had been aware of how much forced labor was available for use at the facility and had received reports on how many people had died I was the person who directly over saw that labour. He coordinated with the S s to essentially rent people from camps. It'll work their weight, the ss charged with two to three Reich's marks per person per day, but, as was the case with VON Brown and rude off replies, on the Bt Programme made him an attractive candidate for operation paperclip. Even

by his party membership status alone. He fit the definition of an ardent Nazi like like rude off. He had joined the party way before Hitler had the power he arrived in the? U S and nineteen. Forty five, though him started working for the: U S: strategic bombing survey and the? U S army airforces. However, summer of nineteen forty six Rick high and Paper clipper Albert Patten started a black man an operation at right field, where about one hundred forty of the two hundred plus paper clippers in the? U S were then working aircraft engineer, Herman Nelson seems to have gotten into a personal dispute with them. One night when required patent were playing a late night poker game in their housing facility, which was known as hilltop Nilsen got frustrated with their noise Venus and told them to keep it down,

Patent and Rick I refused and Rick. I made an offensive joke that alluded to nazi atrocities against jewish people. In response, Nelson filed a complaint with Colonel dialed L Putt saying that patent was an ardent nazi and an essay member, and that Rick I had orchestrated the mass hanging at middle work that was meant to deter sabotage but doesn't seem to have taken any action on this, but Nelson also vented his frustrations and a letter to a friend in New York and I caught the eye of the sensors who were reading the paper clippers mail. This sparked an investigation during which it became clear that many paper clippers were willing to cover up one another's involvement in nazi activities and war crimes. Around the same time, investigators in Germany found recognise name on an employee contact list at middle work and investigate

Germany also spotted recurs name in an article about his application. For: U S, citizenship! So I'll of this came together and Rick, I was indicted and returned to Germany to stand trial at the. U S lead war crimes trials that were held at the sight of the dock, how concentration camp these were separate from the international trials that were held at Nuremberg. When Rick I was indicted, he had just signed a new five year contract to work with the army Rick, I became one of nineteen defendants in the door and Nord House and trial that was held a dachau of those nine Rick I was the only one who had worked at the middle work facility rather than at the concentration camps themselves. But the evidence was presented at his trial was contradictory, although some witnesses connected him to war crimes activists

de there were other researchers, including Verna VON Brown, who submitted affidavits in his defence. There wasn't clear written documentation to connect reply to war crimes carried out at the facility Rick. I was one of or people who were acquitted and the army then classified the records from the trial. We will about one more paper clipper after another, quick sponsor break a world full of smart devices. Isn't it about time your printer got smart too now print is smart with HP plus and Hp Smart APP, is how it all happens. You can print your phone with just a tat, no matter where you are even from your garage, slash home office, Slash yoga studio, then he's smart HP plus more about smart printing at hp. Dotcom slash smart in a week.

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fell far. Everyone we ve talked about in this episode, was connected to the middle Work Weapons factory. They had kind of interconnected careers, one another in Germany and while there were a lot of rocket scientists and engineers from that facility who became part of operation paperclip, there were also specialists from lots and lots of other fields, including medicine, chemistry, chemical and biological warfare, aircraft, design architecture and electronics. Sir we're going to end this episode with one of those who Berta struggled has been nicknamed the Father of space medicine. He actually coined the term space medicine and asked her biology, afterward war to stronghold started out working for the- U S in Germany, and then he moved to Texas as part of operation paperclip. He became a: U S, citizen and nineteen.

Six after joining Massa stronghold developed a space cabins simulator as well as the space suits that the first astronauts war. He was the first professor of space medicine at the world's first Department of Space Medicine, which was established at the AIR Force School of Aviation Medicine stronghold was it through trailblazer in his peeled and for a time there were also a lot of words and honours and buildings, and things like that named after him because of his just truly enormous contributions to this. In terms of his work in Nazi Germany, for ten of the twelve that Hitler was in power. He was the director The aviation Medical Research Institute for the Reich AIR Ministry:

This was one of several research institutes in Germany that were working at the intersection of medicine and flight. After the start of world war, two these institutes became part of the lift wifi, and at that point struggled became an officer. Struggled was one of the very few paper clippers. You never joined the Nazi Party and there is some evidence that he was anti Nazi or politically neutral. However, by the end of the war, he was also on the central registry of war criminals and security suspects or the crow cast list. We mention that list in the previous apathy This was a giant compilation of suspected war criminals. It was a multi volume list containing the names of about sixty thousand people somewhere

and to have committed war crimes. Some more suspected, some were really suspected. They were wanted for questioning or as witnesses and as we discussed last time, this list could be all over the place in terms of whose name was on it and how that name got there and how much substantiation there was for whatever had led them to be included. While struggled was director of the Aviation Medical Research Institute, lift while for doctors and members of the S s were carrying out experiments, human beings and some of these experiments were related to struggles field of work. Many german pilots who had been shot down over the english channel during the battle of Britain in nineteen forty had survived the she'll crash, but died of hypothermia before they could be pulled from the war so the lift waffle wanted to figure out the bodies limits and whether it was possible to resuscitate people who had died of exposure to cold. They did, this

by plunging both animals and people into icy water until they died and then trying to revive them. Other experiments that looked fava doctors conducted on human subjects included using hypoxia chambers to stimulate exposure to extreme altitude and forcing people to ingest seawater. Most of these experiments were carried out at the Dachau concentration camp. some of them were fatal experiments. Also, and many of the people who had carried these experiments out have either been killed or died by suicide by the end of the war, but a lot of those who were still living ultimately faced trial at Nuremberg. Egg struggled actually submitted affidavits in some of these trials, and his name came up in questioning the various points, but he was not put on trial himself said will definitely knew about at least some of this research, particularly the freezing experiments. He attended a conference in nineteen

ready to wear, the researchers talked about their results, and he commented their work. After that presentation, when asked, a later, he stressed that the experiments had been done on criminals, but also said that he did really didn't approve of work that was conducted on non consenting human subjects he but he did not allow such experiments at the institute. Although by that point, the institute was part of them welfare and looked to offer was carrying out such experiments. However, There are a lot of unanswered questions about exactly how much stronghold knew about this research, when he knew about it, whether it was in his power to stop it and whether he helped cover up its existence or the involvement of his colleagues and

early interrogations. He and other researchers generally pinned all these human experiments on Dr Sigmund Rascher, who had been involved in the hypoxia and hypothermia. Experiments rascher and his wife had both been executed by order of Heinrich Himmler and one thousand nine hundred and forty five struggled describe rasher, as quote friends, and he and others described these experiments sort of as the work of one deranged clearly unethical man, but it became clear here, that Russia didn't do this work alone and that many other lift off a doctor's had been directly involved. Many of the experiments had proved by Heinrich Himmler by high ranking Luke waffle officers and they had been supervised by lift off a doctors and by people who worked at other german research institutes, including the instant

for aviation medicine in Munich. Some of the people who ran these experiments had also been close working colleagues with Hubert, a stronghold, including co authoring papers with him, but at the same time that's pretty circumstantial. Enough people connected to stronghold, knew about, or were directly involved in, these experiments that it seems like he should have known the details of what was going on beyond just hearing other researchers talk about it that one conference in nineteen, forty two, but we don't know whether he actually did or whether he look any action based on that knowledge. Struggled was investigated in connection with this several times. The first was, Operation Paperclip, but at this point it's obviously hard to trust that the report's created for operation weekly we're through or complete. The second was in nineteen, fifty

After a magazine, article alleged that struck hold had done research on human subjects that investing she was dropped after the air force released a statement that he had already been investigated and nineteen seventy three, the iron S opened an investigation into thirty five suspected war criminals and stronghold was one of them, but I s eventually closed that case due to a lack of evidence after this stronghold, maintain that he had already been cleared of all suspicion but were entering the United States. Then who s eye open another investigation and nineteen. Eighty three but struggle died in nineteen. Eighty six. So at that point, that investigation was closed. One experiment: that stronghold was more clearly connected to involved exposing children with epilepsy, to simulated high altitudes to see if it was possible to induce seizures in susceptible people that experience

took place in nineteen forty three at the institute that struggled was running. It doesn't like any of the children were seriously harmed, but the experiment also didn't conform to the institute's ethical guidelines. This came to light in ninety ninety three, so years after struggled death, regardless of what his true level of involvement, wise and nazi experiments on human being things these allegations and the investigations really affected strongholds reputation most of the in a word that used to be named after him have since been renamed or retired. Portraits of ham at academic and medical institutions have mostly been removed are covered up, even though his influence on space medicine, really comparable to avert around Browns influence on space exploration, the amount of public information auditory right up on the two men. Do not compare and go look for stuff on burner VON Brow

Read about it all day the lot harder to find information on who purchased struck hold. He still has a staunch defenders there who point out that there's just no solid evidence directly connecting him to some of these experience and they point out various flaws and people who have tried to make those connections, some of which have like conflated two different and research institutes into one thing when they really work. So that is where we're going to wrap up today, but to be clear, this episode is, of course, not remotely comprehensive, as we knew it at the time, there were about sixteen hundred specialist brought into U S under Operation paperclip Amy Jacob since book Operation paperclip, which was one of the sources for these two episode focuses on just twenty one of them. So, even though that is much more comprehensive, it still just a tiny portion of the total and like this

so did not really focused on researchers who may have really fit the descriptions that operation paperclip was using to describe the specialists. It was recruiting. aye aye every time we look at these and really any you know, post world war, two discussions of of the people who had been part of that conflict in an involved with things like this, I am always surprised when I have those moments of lake That person was still alive. The year I got married, like I ya places, is so deeply and my own lifetime that I I have to remind myself the lake this was not long ago, as we think of often right right Well then, in addition to that, one of the things that I just kept continually striking me

As I was working on this, and the earlier episode is that after world war, two, there was a whole efforts, just d not defined Germany and to remove Nazis firm positions of power and to try to place people into positions of power who didn't have. Nazis sympathies are connections to the Nazi Party, but then there was a whole effort in the United States. was like what will take them, though, and give them? U S, citizenship, which is a little weird, considering the work that the United States was doing in Germany. We also said than the previous episode that the United States was not the only person that was exploiting the knowledge and talents of all these german specialists, but for them other countries. Where do you in that on a more short term basis, often actually in Germany, not bringing people into their own countries and then allowing them to become citizens listener mail that hopefully involves less horrific things. I view with some Caitlin and it is as follows:

our hour behind the scenes episode where we talked about mother, goose, rhymes and the Nelson Pill trial, and we talked about how much we we both highly you and I would would just throw our on the ground during a ring around the rosy and had a how and when I was a child. I love to swing. I'm a swing, but when I try to do it when I was about thirty, I was like this is a terrible experience. How did I love this? Is the child so Caitlin send some insight, careless of high Holly and Tracy in this week's behind the scenes? Episode, odd mother, goose and the Nelson Pill trial highly mention that she used to love the all fall down part of ring around the rosy as a child, and now it's awful first. I agree. Second, there's a fund developmental reason why little kids like to fling themselves around

and we have a body system called Propria reception which basically, let's your brain figure out where you are in space and in relation to things around you like other body systems. It takes time to develop. Little kids are still developing their propria exception sense and greatly benefit from activities. Let them calibrate like a nintendo, Wii moat. The same thing two swings getting picked up and carried an odd positions and the general shenanigans of childhood thought you might enjoy that tidbits side, a former pre school teacher, a k, a Caitlin. Thank you so much for this email, Kate, when I know about prove reception, because I have studied them, anatomy and physiology. I didn't really in that connection. That leg, like all these other systems of your body, it's not really develops when your little and spinning and spinning around and saw you fall down, for example, but that makes total sense and I'm glad to now know it, and that is not just that

Somehow I got old and couldn't swing on a swing anymore. I definitely got old and can fall down any more at well yeah other thing that got me in recent years with skipping oh yeah, I mean I used to love to skip when I was a kid skiff for days, and then I was doing a running training programme where, like there were certainly rules where you would skip for a period of time and I remember being excitedly our love skipping and by the Ngos. Like, oh dear me, this is not know. This is a most skipper the time that it was like a quarter of the time that it was like I'm just gonna walk during this time. You get what a walk with about these steps

we ve talked before about our indoor exercise, attempts in the land of of coded pandemic, and one of the things that I do is I play rings. It adventure iron, then and tender switch and has a quiet mood which I think is really aimed for like folks who live in apartments. You dont want to jog in place, above their downstairs neighbours heads rate, but I shall turn that on immediately do less pounding on my knees and other joint young. So anyway, I thank you again Caitlin. For that note, I really just delighted learning that new facts about

developments who forth and now to me and physiology. I feel like to write to us about this or any other pod castrate history, podcast, that I have radio dot com and we're all over social media miss than history. That's where you find our Facebook and twitter and Pinterest and Instagram Andy can subscribe to our show. I'm I heard an apple pie task than anywhere else. You like to get caught cast stuff. You missed in history class the production of a heart radio for more part. it's for my heart. Radio visit by her radio have added mankind's or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Everyone like shopping online, but searching for coupon codes is kind of a bummer, so makes having online agrees with capital one shopping capital. One shopping is a free tool that instantly there.

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