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there's? No, they call me Ben we're joint, as always with our super producer, paul mission control, deck and, most importantly, you are you, you are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want. You to know we're finally doing it. This is our episode about ships and, thank goodness because we talk about me yeah we take much it's a lot of air it would. We were talking about instagram- add that some of us have been good. for very, very range potato chips, resource range in exotic, potato chips, ya, think both you and I and have received one for a lays Szabo shoe hot pot. Flavor with seems delightful it. Of course, you know, you know, I think all four was frequent asian, Supermarkets promote its quite a lot like the super h marks of the world and their you'll see this insane variety of chips. Thetis don't get in your real, humble kroger, republics or whatever, but

our not really talking about those kind of chips. Today, though early yeah, unfortunately, I guess we should. We should rip off the bandaid now ships are amazing. Potato chips in particular, but there's a another kind of ship that we're going to explore tonight. It is the kind of chip that makes civilization, as we know it possible in the first place these chip, often referred to as semi conductors. Think that is, the silent servants of the digital age, depending upon whom you ass they may just rigour, the next world war here- are the facts. Before we get any further, the what is a semi conductor, landed, no dumb questions, as speaking of that lets wishes just do a little upfront information here for everybody. Listening your boy: Matt is a dumb dumb and it all of his research on ok, ninety nine superconductor.

if this is going on in the news I literally I dont know where I work crossed my simple a semi conductors guys, but I'd like I have no it What's going on in this episodes, I'm gonna be just that lately, we have lost sorry, hurley that knowledge will come in handy somewhere down. I don't think you know, I don't think so. I think it will be like ok before you get into so my conduct has been told, tell us a little bit about the El K. Ninety nine that new sorter rocked rock. the digital world. A few weeks back Durable today news came out that of officially p move in trying to replicate this super, this room temperature, superconductor technology, it came back and said no, its, not actually a superconductor, it does have really cool thing. Going on about it,

but it's not a room temperature superconductor, which would would have to the game for everything, including in especially chips since, making doctors so anyway, will listen. Did and intolerable semiconductors. I apologize guys. I guess that begs You're talking about, first and foremost, the idea of conductivity you now and what does it mean. I mean that not a new state, the obvious, but you now conducting materials, are able to allow electricity to pass through them and can me for all things like wiring and you know sending up, there are materials that are doktor, where it's not a good thing in our you could it could be dangerous, see now, and you have to be very careful about you now having christy around pools. Like you know, don't don't drop blowdryer here and the bathtub and keep the toaster far far away. Is that's a recipe for disaster, but the idea of like something that conducts better or less

better ways on the electric face, that issue of conductors is, does Urim and conduct electricity is gonna, lecture lights and around which it would you, if you really wisdom, electric fancied, you guys apt, I've got it. But idea rally, not It is. We know can conduct electricity in near and is you know, you're like look what's water with the little some extra I don't know, look. Luke law wants us to portray them that way, but on the other end of the spectrum, there's the insulators right leg glass is an insulator yeah. Electricity is really vied with those. So when I was when you were talking about fair, just, were recorded about semi conductor, a why. Why would you want something that is in this goldilocks zone between insulin, you shouldn't and superconductivity? Well, it's because it

last year to control the flow it lets. You put so much that you put some. If then, some ones and zeros into the mix and as your life two tonight show there are billions, little sue conductor, ones and zeros making this possible, even if it doesn't sound like a bunch of ones and zeros. Everything you do electronically is that I was sort of may the comment off my that The name semi conductor almost sounds kind of like a bit of a cell phone or it's. I am not that good at conducting electricity, I'm only semi good at it, but that that matters, because we want to be able, as you said, been kind of stem. The flow of electricity in ways that are conducive to certain technological process, in those those billions. a verbs It is, I guess, the ones and zeros the. If thence. That's what solemn?

where did all that's contained within this tiny little piece of real estate, dia, oh and in debt, any real estate and must go back to what Ben you were saying about conductors and in insulators and semi conductors the problem with metal, like copper or even when you get into things like silicon? When you pump electrons through their inlets, incur electrons or just go, and willy nilly everywhere throughout that those ad. so that copper, the electrons you go any goes everywhere. That's why you get resistance. That's why you get heat in anything right like we were just talking about. my computer is being so hot oven having these recording problems, it's because this thing is generating a ton of heat, which is just the resistance. The of electricity lost, basically due to the materials used in the creation of this machine That's? Why send over time it's gotten less efficient, I guess, or the the the battery has

lost, some of its original warmth and how it sort of like generating way more of that then it should and which is why it's time to put that thing out to past. Also, because the semi conductors there were manufactured back in twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen you know were of a certain grade and they degrade over time right, yeah, one hundred percent, I mean so. The question is, of course, coming from a culture where bigger there are faster, is always superior. It might seem counter intuitive to have something less conducted, but have a semiconductor material because of a resistance works. It allows humans to make amplifier said allows humans to make switch is an shout out to professor like engineering, arizona, state university tremor thornton. I as a great explain her on this with the good folks at the conversation and the thorn puts it. This way

it breaks down the chips in a very understandable way. He says the chips are typically made from thin slices of silicon and they have complex component? wade out in specific patterns. These patterns control the flow of current you gino switches, we're talking about transistors and wouldn't says it's pretty much. The same way you can try will the electrical current in your home. The light switch, is a literal switch right turn off or on the on the floor of the electricity, but the difference between the switches in our houses and the switch is in a semi conductor. Is that those my conductor switches, our first off very tiny hasn't They are entirely electrical. They need no mechanical components to flip- and there are billions of switches

tens of billions in the sophisticated chips, and this is an area like not much bigger than your thumb. They're, not even know your thumbnails brother, your best fingernail, now much bigger than your pinky gale. and that's the part where I just my mind- is kind of glazes over where, unlike the system, for all intents and purposes, might as well be alien tec to me, like understand a circuits in the basics of electronic, see no, unlike the. If then of like a It's a printed circuit board like in a piece of musical equipment, example and oftentimes, those will incorporate switches you now to turn thing honour off whether it be blocking no passing hour or like whatever or turning on a certain filter or whatever it might be. But this whole billions of switches in an area not much larger than the size of a fingernail is just I. I can't wrap my head around it. It makes me think a euro at some point. Well, at some point there will be

a physical limit to how many switches can be put on to a single chip. When you get to the when you get the onto a single atom size. Right now you can't you can't go much smaller, but if we could Surely you could you? You might be able to make so many switches that you can make a simulation of the entire observable universe. I am not high by the way I'm not there yet. But I have to say to like me is this: is this? Is the amount of these switches, the number whatever that has to do with her many processes, as a chip can do at one time we're talking about evolution of ships over time. These things I think, they're calling reds or whatever, like within a computer processor, the the our power chips, a higher power processors can do more. Of this can contain more of these switches. I'm just again, I'm I'm conjecture,

I'm pretty sure. That's right! That's a hundred percent! For a long time, people were following something called moors law and moors law. is this stunning observation that the numbers of switches or transistors in an integrated circuit doubles. We're has doubled every two years. It's it's us Donnie precipitous evolution. Not not all of these ships are the same. We can think of rough categories. free chips, they stored data and software as binary code, digital chips. They manipulate the data based instructions from software and the wireless chips receive data from high freeway Radio transmitters convert those into electrical signals and then it's back to the chips this all run by the language of software. More software. Does even the very van stuff. It just coordinates. Ways in which these different chips work together with that include things like our

You know using your found, a tap on a thing to do now: pay or like the way. You receive receiving or transmitting short distance kind of data, yeah man, it's It's pretty much it's actually it's weird. It's almost easier. At this point, I think too, try a name electronics without these sorts of choice. Sk as their in everything, your phone, your car, you tv, remote medical applications? Military applications are back in the day. Semi conductor If evolution moved with the cycles of pcs, so the more personal computers improved the more sophisticated they became, the more sophisticated chips became and then iphones hit. I once were big game changer. At this point, I think we should shout out our pal jonathan Strickland aka, the quicker from tax stuff he's had one the longest running, tat podcast in the game and heat the stuff in depth. If you wanna to luskin spirit

oil primer lonely here phrase, smart device that me There's one sums are some of this stuff it's a little smart, anything yeah, right, you're, air service, tat, your washer and drier dreyer. She had every year massage chair such are, the wireless ship is also again I'm starting to be being this in the gambling. That's what allows you to to receive wifi again so many of these smart devices have to be on a network and dont have ethan port on them, so that they kind of chip. My you're, probably in addition to the digital, maybe not memory. Joanna membership is more like ram on a computer for timber very storage of data that is actually being used in in the moment they all work together and, what's what's nuts about it, too, is, if you think about let's, let's blow the dust off our old taco bell, allergy from these basic ingredients you can make up,

I believe things that appear to be very different items on the menu right, taco values like aim is for having what forty five greedy, and also your thirty things, that's kind of how chips work, but in the end, isn't it weird and I'm not high, to think that all This all of the information is just an electrical current. Getting taken indifferent corrections in hitting different things at different times and in all micro level. It becomes. Our voices in your, isn't. He yeah it becomes your favor, television show on acts or whatever, like did ah, the human brain. Is that too? I'm looking at a very simple piece of electronics right next to me, that's mano fanatics, synthesizer. That is just signal flowing alive trinity that is filtered end and boosted and the different things happen to it. It makes a sound and

literally a sound that we hear that has just vibrations carried on the air, in all areas, sorry about it is mine blowing also, I gotta say on a softer folks. Farragut piracy realised and also park, as planned, this snail lying here. It might sound a little weird that we all three took a moment to say weird. hi as individuals, but that's just because this stuff is so mind blowing. When you think about it, it's a big would sit everywhere. It's breaks your head right, so we know this evolution is not if you are a fellow nerd of a certain generation, your first exe, dreams with some conductors may have come in the form of pocket calculators. Member those old texas instruments, things we all had to buy what a monopoly that was a griffin

tia. I didn't learn so pretty recently how important texas instruments was in the whole personal computer, few race, you know, there's a really great, show called halden catch fire that sort of like a fictional ized version of like the race for like the pc and the laptop and stuff in parts of it are real and one part of Israel is the whole inclusion of of taxes instruments and they called it. The silicon prairie that area of taxes that was really big in this stuff. Really. Fast even before. Like you know, silicon valley became a thing This was kind of like the ground, zero, lot of this sub this. This research and development yeah an end we ve already clocked the substance, silicon coming up again and again by the where we're going to work as folks, those those pocket the leaders, like you mentioned that, like the tea I eighty five and so on page three fours

through the one make member he puts it, lays down a drug that is worth it was just a text It's like your own adventures. As all it wasn't. You got to be a drug king been remember. It was first time I saw the word lutes and I was they. What is loot? What are looming adult now it is up at. I also remember the old, a o o eight five. You knows taken as a the mirror, so those things only had a few thousand transistors per chip still very impressive for us, but now the largest ones going to have more than fifty billion in transistors pushing to be. Jim moors laws and mueller. Naturally, so one of the most important technologies of modern civilization, who makes them this is where it gets interesting, there made these compounds called foundries back in two thousand.

Twenty three years ago there was something like twenty three company. Yes, they were doing this to some degree. As of twenty twenty one there. Only three major players in the game, as as the free market dictates, they ate their own right, fewer and fewer competitors, the three big, the three big boys, three charters, The field are in, tell you who go who so long downtown down from the outer courier does. It ended in something called Taiwan in semi conductor, manufacturing company or ts in sea. This is the kobe bryant of the game by far interesting, the abbot, what sort of seems to be. It will add, a note will get there if its change names that I don't know. That is a household name like I do intel. I do think it's funny, during interesting that the term foundry, like that's really old term, for like a

three. You poor, metal, molten, steel and things in making them make goods out of liquid metal foundry like picture, where the terminator its lowered into the lava, with the end of t to spoiler lurk from twenty five year old, move well we'll let those up the hill talk about that one. The taiwan, semi conductor, manufacturing company it's in taiwan and they make what is its over half of all the chips manufactured in the world right. Yes, sir yeah round about fifty four percent currently and additionally out of all ships they make an out of all the chips in the world. Ts him see, makes the best. Once the most sophisticated once we're we're talking about the new ones with fifty billy, switches or transistors. Those are coming from Taiwan and there are other players in the game, but at present, if this one company goes under or its operations are

is rubbed it for any amount of time. For any reason, the world, as you know it folks, is going to run into a lot of problems very very quickly, so You know, diversification is good in any field, but times you can't have it right and sometimes have to live with a reality, and if Hi wine is indeed the holy grail for the holy font for this technology, then a guess humans have to take care of taiwan. Butts can a complicated because it turns out. Taiwan is a little bit more than a dope archipelago of safety technology moves It's also a very let's say important and strategic geopolitical location habit Then they end. I mean really think about that, we're we're. Joking when we say more

Things now that you can purchase there, are above bargain basement like lowest level version of a product have a chip in it. As a standard and they are making fifty four percent of those ships they go in. All of the things has now an internet of things, it's a world of internet things and if you ask any jus politics walk in the economist, any war hawk. You know, even if you get the buttoned up alphabet boys about three drinks in and you ask him why what will lead to world war? Three they're gonna have a short list of things and it's gonna be stuff climate refugees, it's gonna, be stuff like nuclear accountability. Potable water and taiwan, because if things go

If things go just a little bit wrong, Taiwan is going to be a huge problem. What do we mean? We'll tell you, after a word from our sponsors, save big on groceries with drop the shopping rewards app during black friday, download the drop app to earn points with your everyday shopping and redeem them for gift cards want a free dinner for the family, with those groceries drop it. How about daily la tastes, drop it shopping for the holiday cut chain, even more points baby, so download drop today and get five dollars just for signing up use. Invite code get drops seven, seven. Seven! That's invite code get drops seven, seven, seven, where the lucky man finds you can get lagging just about anywhere. Germans were good, we're runway and the the weather's five, but we're just going to circle appear awhile and get lucky know nothin like that. It's just these cash pride is that of quick. So I suggest you sit back. Keep your tray table upright and start getting looking

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unfortunately, is yeah man yeah money, it's like a devils bargain right, you know you you, you make all this progress. Surrounding this miraculous material that have a shelf life, I guess area there is a finite amount of this stuff. It's not just available anywhere, and you know you. Basically hang your entire existence on the substance of this material, and then there comes, it becomes the most terrible ships as a bargaining chip. It becomes the most out rage bargaining, jabbing could possibly imagine It's in the scary part is you even if you don't hear about it, often if you're not in the text, actor or the war sector. There is already a war going on it's a cold war for now, one as we record the west

is throwing economic sanctions, China's throwing economic sanctions, lotta people making big speeches and posturing, they're doing trade freezes that are specific targeting the supply chain of semi conductors stuff. That so specific. It would sound weird, likewise U s? Terrified that china is clamping down on things like galileo when's the last time you were walking down the street, you thought I wonder how galleons doing urge germanium and and bennett I made the common earlier that t s m c, wasn't like a household name to me, and I think that's true, but this still is? this is the important component. This conversation is that company and the fact that their a household name is interesting

sell it. Yeah you're, not gonna, you're not going to buy their high in ships as an individual you're going to buy stuff from companies like apple that have bought ships from that company. They supply other business. And governments, and militaries I mean it sounds alarmist re right, but in recent years the idea of a chip war has become a it concern in the? U s, like people stay awake at night, worried about this because the pr see has a really fraught cartoonish Lee tense relationship with Taiwan They are super duper sensitive about it. Even on this little pockets. This all free part cast. If, if you're, not diplomatic, when you talk about taiwan, it can spell problem were you in customs, in in mainstream china linked to the point where they might Let you in like getting out

comes a conversation that you don't wanna. Have it's it's tough, I mean, like ok of a war could break out at any given moment over any given that's just the reality. Human civilization is a house of cards, but this thing these chips because the what is so dependent upon them. They may be the proverbial feather on the camel's back. The war might go hot because of this resource, dude blake. I had no idea speaking ts him see I I did just how important they are to the nation of taiwan, the street name Four ts m c is sacred mountain and such a big deal that if you work for this company, you can apply I'd be exempted from military training. Even if there's war going on, you can say I work for the chip company, though, and then I go crap me. What are you doing here? Get back to the foundry

more chips yeah makes sense of euro war. You gotta make war stuff in war stuff, these to be smart, and if you don't have the chips, then you don't got the war stuff right, which I think is the I don t right? That's their yup, that's like their intel bump yeah. So I guess we need to talk a little bit about the situation between china and taiwan wise it so tense. Why? Why is it So I I think it's fair to say it can seem cartoonish to outsiders, yeah, I've, I've. I've always had a sort of a vague grasp on this, but I'm super interested in getting a little more the details of the history. There all look out breakdown, just what I think I know and then Ben you slip it will

we'll three blind meissner case: we're where not taiwanese nor chinese and oates we are not chinese is what we should say. Yes, because the country of china, the people's republic of china, as for a long time consuming taiwan just to be china and with he one china policy, everything. It is. China is china, and that is it end of sentence. So Taiwan is china. It is a part of transacts right, except seer, the human beings, that action we run. Taiwan disagree with that sentiment at roughly what yeah nailed it. That's in that's right way. To put it so you'll hear you'll, hear called taiwan, china, taiwan province of China or taipei, china. It dates back to you

Nineteen, forty nine there were there were two political entities with the name: china. They both lay claim to the entirety of the lad, the one, the p r c, the people's report like of china. That's usually what folks in the west mean when they say china. It's me when china and then on taiwan. There was the republic of china or oro, see, which is a very bad thing to say: don't euro don't bring that up in beijing? Even if you think your children everyone's cool at the carry oki spot because of that split? The piazzi, like, like a guy set. The pure see considers Taiwan one

you're percent part of its country. The way that the? U S, considers hawaii a hundred percent part of the? U s and, like you said, a lot of people in Taiwan do not agree with that and if it, if this was not a part of it, possible cause for world war? Three, it would be hilarious. The whole like Vonnegut Joseph Heller, ask at twenty tunis of it Every single country on the planet pretty much avoid talking about it, tissue sometimes a western politician- will show there ass a little bit and then immediately step it back, because china does not play with this, You can even see the soldier to me. You can even see celebrities totally, not politicians totally not diplomats or anything just celebrities favorite athletes, movie stars screwing up having us like accidental, miss, speak and up

our driving through the world for daring to refer the taiwan as some sort of independent country or entity we a clip John siena doing it. We can play that right quickly. This issue in mandarin, you had an atlas player who knew her home? Ok, the glib knowledge of the war. Zhao sina will be so sure tions a day. So do you teaching jaw, woods or hon? Do a sci, fi hundred wonder So for anybody, not speaking manner, what John Siena is doing here, it actually not terrible manner. It is apologizing to the world to the people and government of china, for accidentally referring to taiwan as a country. and this is not the only example of this there

celebrities, who have done the same thing and wise important to play nice with his government. If you are celebrity or public figure whilst because it's one of the biggest growing consumer markets on the planet. That's why your favorite food studios are jumping through their butts visa to get together. The chinese government's permission to show their films right. That's why like in I'm kind of alone in this, but I loved the pacific rim, films, member are you kidding? I do only their good day. Robots tat thinks me anyhow, I love them and you can really tell that, did that you? You wanted the approval of the chinese government and in the second pacific rim, film, because there's something about charlie day, not being able to speak. Betraying there

there's, the insertion of this whole chinese government supply as like the good guy, actually save the world. There's there's a lot of a year and the main thing is no matter how powerful you are as a government or as a company or even as a billionaire. You just don't talk about the taiwan thing. You just don't bring it up. It's like, if you're at your friends house- and you see him yell at their kids, aegis don't comment on what those even been at least one. You and resolution that like tried to this in stone, or maybe china tried to set in stone through the? U n, does they got china as a result of world war, two being on the winning side. China is one of the few countries with a veto power right, and the united nations had this white paper. They came out

They were the legal opinion that Taiwan is a province of china without no separate status and China took that ran with two hours are stages set one of the most important technologies. Probably the most important technology in the modern world is manufactured. It a ticking time bomb of an eye right. The situation in Taiwan is full. Stop. No caveats spit is unsustainable. It is double plus good, it's like if all the world's important computers were made on a glacier and the glacier was melting I guess my question. Those like is: is it about their access to? material: is it about their exports t's and manufacturing the product like. Why do they have such a monopoly on it like? Why isn't it more diversified the ladder? It's an it's their expert

he's in manufacturing the materials that are used to make this stuff that goes to taiwan, but they don't you're, not going to see a bunch of like gallienne Germania man? So in mines on taiwan, having no yeah their lives. Those proprietary like so when we get advances in the ship, it's because they figured it out or what this is really really difficult to to make things with that level precision year and don't forget there are people that intel- and you know all these other places that do manufacture factor chips just on a much smaller scale. They are also attempt. to make innovations right, but in materials and in in, I guess, technique yeah. But this whole really does, and we ve talked about this before, but it really does give a perfect explanation for this

Three of china's practices of resource extraction, specifically in africa, like where the materials are coming from and where they are going and and credit where its do a lot of companies that are not in taiwan rate lay companies in the netherlands in japan. In the u s, they the design know how so the boffins over it intel can design a new chip and they can have that conceptual breakthrough. but for it to be manufactured, it is over mainly likely it will have to be manufactured in taiwan. That's the choke point, and it's a joke point that comes into battle the? U s and China are there not friends there they're, not friends there, to people in a crime, Restaurant, who are increasingly side I in each other and there

making these little moves daddy. Really get in trouble for yet its huge technology. arms race. And then u s. Companies have a big big dilemma: they need china, they needed The china needs the companies too little. Bed were a big clients. You know where the money is coming from these cuts these using their products, so it is its you're right. It's like kind of like mannered is sort of cold war. You everyone's assertive leg, let's not rock. Two miles, we don't have the like each other, but we also have to figure out how to keep doing business. Well said, it's kind of weird, ok, so when I say about it. I may be way off your it. I've, stats or anything, but a few says, though the u s, companies like you're, apples and well- I guess I m saying- is not a? U s coming

but your apples in the? U S, markets for products being produced by those companies is has been huge, historically ripe, lots but it's not as though it's a growing market right, because the? U s a certain number of people who are going to buy, let's say a cell phone at a certain rate. You know every couple of years or something you ve got you know of camp jurors in cars and all these other things like major things, even appliances that use these chips. There's you've got a set rate, pretty with a population- it is mildly growing, but not enough that it's you gonna change the world of the number of chips you need to manufacture for them, but if you ve got a bull, again incredibly from wrong here, but it feels like the country of trial with a population that has country of like india and the population, it has an as the number of people

buying new products increases in those countries that, with that's probably one of the biggest places. There are concerned about when it comes to new manufacturing. Yeah yeah very well put I would agree with that, because, If you want to make money from the western perspective need to be selling things in india and in china, David, This exploding middle class, there's more money to burn, and there was historically and they will they will have that jump in consumption, the? U s and a lot of other countries in a similar boat, their population and are undergoing a greying out right, even with immigration thing. are levelling off The most apparent example would, of course, be the nation of japan right, which is gonna, have a lot of problems on the way,

China may encounter some of those same demographic challenges, as the bill of the one child policy comes. Do in future generations. In all the firm aside, it led to infanticide of women, but right now china does need the? U s The question is for how long will the new deal, says their own domestic market grows. I they have increasingly of the prc, has increasingly put in strict rules about how foreign companies can operate in their territory and this leads to sky. a high rates of industrial espionage, at least, if you listen to every government, except for the government of china or- and this is new like I think I may have been to this before, but like theirs

synthesizer that I have made by our japanese company call Roland and that ships on it there are like their notorious foregoing, bad and the after prepare them place them, but the reason they go bad is because they have this kind of like coating on top of them like surrounding them, covering the chip. Part were you actually see you know the shapes we're talking about those whatever like the path or whatever they are manufactured. with those on it, then it have to do in order to repair them. You have to soak them and ass, a town for like a day and then dissolves it. But the reason for that is to prevent. Does your espionage peer review? Have someone yeah looking at them coming down the line? They can't take a picture of what the circuit looks like because is covered in this kind of plastic. material within that also causes. It's a trap, moisture and overtime. These chips burn out so there notoriously faulty part, and now there are companies that make kind of clones.

visions of them, because I want you haven't you can take it off and do it. But when this is a new products they anybody to steal it from right I don't want to see before he did to this new export only see the following, not just because I want things to go smoothly and mainland customs, because it is true. China's are fond of innovation. China makes a ton enough chips domestically on their own. They are just not be sophisticated chips. Mainland china makes, in taiwan, of course, makes world's best ships do so There is innovation happening in china, this scouts and scale of it, but the? U S, government than you s, companies in particular, feel they have uncovered a pattern, a modus operandi they. What these is that they want to do. Like? What's your car company and you want to start a factory in china right because it's cheaper

manufacture some parts there you will be required to partner with chinese firms, will be required to hire chinese nationals in certain key positions and, according to these critics, the entire time these other companies are partnered with, and these oh yes, they are still being up all the secret sauce, the manufacturing techniques, the proprietary strategies, all that jack. Then, when they have extracted that intellectual resource very go then done you're an empty juice box so boom boom drink, your milkshake ray a guess so amgen understand fully the relationship between china and taiwan. So does china have unilateral, can all over taiwan. You say that taiwan disagrees, but is china still? Basically,

dog or is there a dispute even in that? Is that the tipping point that that's on the edge of that particular dispute? love, is worthy of liquid. It mats face disease, good niagara. Read your mind a little bit mad like how are we going to handle this? One is a great question is: are really is wasting issues differently leave her answer, yeah yeah, because, few it depends upon whom you ask right. If you ask, politicians in Taiwan it will say the they'll give you probably one of three answers. depending on their ideology, they'll say, will either one yes, Taiwan is a hundred percent part of china. The way alabama is a hundred percent part of the? U s to fail hey we're going for a kind of one

country or one party to systems kind of approach. So similar to how macau in Hong kong have cultural differences, but there still everybody amidst the part of china, hong kong was british until late like ninety, ninety nine, without sufficiently chinese or the third, when the hot the one that I get those politicians in trouble, they will say we are fighting. before taiwanese independence, and the government of China looks at that like As the latter words yeah, as those somebody in the government of alabama was going well, the kingdom of alabama has all zack secession is based right or wrong, but to the outside perspective, especially since china isn't exactly forthcoming with this and of information. It sort of a black box right leg,

the ok, so I am not alone in the indian. This confusion to making sure do know you're, not alone you're you're, with we're together. On this, as is the majority of the report. There are some awkward conversations at the united nations. You know what I mean. It's on the level trying to solve for stability in the Middle EAST that how sensitive visits as what I was thinking here- you're absolutely right due to the the if something came out recently, that I think everybody should check out It was a sea NBC documentary called china's corporate spy war and its investigation into these. U s allegations in the us. There are mean rivals in in this. exploration but make no mistake. Alot of europe

in countries feel the same way and of course, korea and japan and china will never get along unless, like aliens land, they are not gonna, be friends. So in china's corporates by war, this about it fbi, sting operation to hear about this one. This. This surprised me colonel, know anything about this, but we can give you. I guess I quote on no right up of this ban. I think that's what we're looking era this CNBC talking about it It is about a chance. These ministry of state security officer name shoe young june, who turned out to be a spy, and he wasn't spying on the: u S, government, he was spying on: u S, companies yeah yeah, an important companies with important Oh gee, like g boeing in Honeywell, here comes a court in twenty two.

Nineteen shoe yan joe. Pursued an engineer. I g aviation. valuable knowledge of the company's jet engine. Composite fan, blade technology, as an academic official and using fake name shoe was introduced to the g engineer, who was visiting nanjing china to give a speech at a prestigious university shoe, began a pressure campaign get the engineer who had family in china to review. more and more information about the engine tat. The chinese government had targeted hates me, your friend johnny last name: blue jeans, hello, fellow kids, in his. I tell me of your skateboard tricks, we'll all. I care really tell you about the engine technology, that's for sure because I can tell you your grandmother's home address. That's right! Be a shame if something happened to me:

It sounds like a snooze fest you're talking about like composite fan, blades in all this stuff, but it Harkin's back to one of my favorite songs. You guys, down rodeo from rage against the machine I am telling your browser window there. There's one boy yeah. I guess we'll give you a small quote from one of them. Says here. If I'm gonna correctly, let's see, let's ok, I found it it's a thousand years. They had the tools we should be taking them gee ride. I want the machine They don't make another maria. So that's what we're talking about earlier does good, but that's exactly will return email by china is attempting to get it sees the means of production, the keys to production, yeah, yeah yeah, I love a guy. I love a good, go to rage against the machine has one of the bands era. I guess there,

you call rap rock or whatever that actually holds up, because they, We're truly hip hop like truly you know, zack de de la raja, incredible lyricist, Tom Morello, absolutely fabulous guitars, and so many of other bands that kind of came after them boo, but It holds up. Yeah rage holds up, they gotta. They ve got a great joy with run the jewels jacked electoral guys on that not going to send his campaign like they did my man for a hampton rages so good anyway? Yes, that and that's that's such a a stupid point. Matt, that's a beautiful point, The idea is about empowerment, right woods, let's get to the chinese perspective and just the second in the case of this documentary, here's what the f b I did. The fbi alerted general electric and they said you know you're compromised. There's there's a fox, the hen house, there's a fly in the ointment and so This really weird meeting, and I think it was Cincinnati with the engineer and they confronted him

and they offered him the age old, classic choice. They said you can is the legal consequences of breaking numerous laws, or you can go doing, what you're doing and just work for us which I guess just make alert the fbi. what information your sharing and one instructions you're getting like that's literally. It the end and in turn the fbi will the way that now that the way this stuff works is you will report upon activity, you see give visibility right into what the the forces are asking for what their prioritizing composite fan, blades, etc, and then, as it gets a little more complicated as you a little more switches in your chips of subterfuge then you'll start feeding them fake information and the fbi. I'll give you more give you.

they'll, give you thickly. Ok, I don't want to go to Ben to this, but this is kind of interesting it similar to how a hollywood studios. Will control for script leaks they'll give if crew and cast different copies of a script with Maybe certain lines: twitter changed water marking things marvel. Does this the mouse. Does this and so they'll keep a record of that? And then, if it, give it pops up in the wild they'll know exactly how to trace sort of the chain of custody. Very. Be smart, then they'll waterborne, those jokers. We know you liked the script tell us what you know take the water perfect add if you get that reference right

because it would make our it'll make our really all her. Let me know surely not their bigger, bigger, meister fry, If we look at the chinese perspective, just to be fair, in china as a reply to this in various ways, specifically to this case, we mention from twenty, seventeen and to the idea of intellectual espionage in general, and this is we much phobic, her embassy said quote: the chinese government has never dissipated or supported anyone in any form in stealing commercial secrets some people and institutions in the u S had been making false accusations. We are the: u s side, to handle the case without bias and in accordance with the law and protect the lawful rights and interests of chinese citizens. Ok totally sounds good. sounds closure. I didn't

now. The word xenophobic until just seen a which is a sinner phobic new knew. This is new yes it's obviously anti chinese sentiments or but more bigger than At like on on some kind of level of racism, I like the idea of like being anti semitic hotter. Besides the eyes tat answered you cargoes guys. Let's take a quick, but here were from our sponsor and come back with

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In trojan raws now available in non latex. It's designed to enhance body heat transfer between partners trojan bear skin raw is available at major retailers nationwide. So don't delay buy a pack today to experience raw by trojan bear skin raw america's thinnest latex condom among leading brands trojan bear skin raw. Let's go the: u s a you as a proud to be so great. U s perspective is this. Washington has two big concerns. First, they are terrified that the chinese government will catch up, the? U s military or surpass it in key aspects, and things do what's called medical warfare, the valley concern and, secondly, very worried about some sun, some insult to injury. They think that

They think that china may leverage- u s technology, to do that so stated so. Crib the secrets steal the research and then your starting on third base for the next innovation right you can do is called technological leapfrogging. That's because president XI ping, dead look. China needs to be a world class military by twenty forty, nine we are well on the way. A big part of that polish involves the work. Sorry, I've got a of get a lamp on a really junkie. Oh tell way up, got get lamps on lamps keep that morning, we're on the road, but ok, so a big part of them push the evolves developing atomic weapons. Hyper. on missiles, using machine learning or vienna. Potent pull a high for also lots of stuff, including cyber warfare and so on for those

most playing along at home to match earlier point to knowles earlier point: what do all those things need just delicious ships, they did the chips and china make the most advanced ones yet outside of taiwan, no one really make me super vats, semi conductors so I don't have to play the international trade game, the? U s has to play the international trade game and they have to make nice it is. For that reason they don't talk too much. Trash taiwan in china, because if they do and have tried decides to shut down the flow of the semiconductor spice, my launch, then it is just it's gonna, be storm. I know I'm cursing a lot in this one, but we can't over

Besides that and the u s wants to block all the stuff. China needs to Yes, perfect, when the chip hits the fad de Biden administration current you as president Joe Biden in october of last year they put in they ratcheted up the trade war. and they said: look we're not gonna. Allow you to buy stuff with? U S, origins! If Are you s based business? If you, could do business in the? U s, then you can't sell china certain things and they went to the netherlands and he went to Japan that both countries have some pretty. Pretty mission critical, like manufacturing processes that are part of the semiconductor supply chain japan and the netherlands to agree?

china is a pretty pissed they're, pretty pissed about it. Yet president, she in particular is accused. The united states of waging a cold war style series of contain The strategy is right and he's not wrong. we now, but that's out of that, it's it's one of the two in the end, the two about right- I mean something has to be done. Wouldn't you say banning this isn't an outright aggress move. This is something that psych thinking ahead and trying to keep things just ballooning out of control with this relationship right, sir, lay drawing a line in the sand and well it's so weird me. Because it's coming on the tales of news you ve, probably read about specifically about the eu, if you're in the? U s about specific companies were not allowed to do business with anyone anymore were not allowed to have their software. On our hardware, tik tok, anyone

were not allowed to use their hearts where to access you know, any networks will meet with its again. These are like, but it's was like soft rules that are coming forward or bans in its very strange, because the same thing is happening on the other side: right ooh, The escalating tit for tat people are increasing herbs got. These governments are increasingly trying to shut down points of access for for everything you need to make chips An earlier this year, Whilst the EU s actions, china and said, look raytheon lockheed martin there? U s companies, so tupac style. They said Anyone who ride with you here right. Does everything raytheon sound like a star wars monster? I mean really always in sins in it we talked about it too late defence industries.

Those companies have a weird habit of picking. in agro names. I know the leisure They wouldn't you say that at this point, like our governments between china and the mayor and in the u s are like pretty openly trustful and suspicious of one another I mean it's gone. At the point where their barely even trying to hide it anymore yet Also, I mean that's why it's important doing to understand both per factors, cause the raising valid points, even though their both intensely nationalistic, it's their job, if you're a politician for account the EU needs ear. Trying wrap your country's interests if you're doing, if you're doing your job correctly. However, one of the issues is that China is a culture, has a very long memory. The west has committed a trial. please in china, the opium wars were entirely to force the people of Chad.

And end up becoming a nation of drug attics. That's some! Not you know if you, if you in the chinese government you're, not gonna, forget that and you should not. So, of course they they don't trust each other for a lot of His folks, the cold war, never ending its very much zero sum game and the child he's ministry of commerce the point about resource extraction? They just clamp down galleon in germany in these two elements that you need to make computer chips, fiber optic, solar cells, cetera right now, both sides are still having diplomatic talks. JANET it yellin. Whenever there is a matter of fact, Henry kissinger went over to china in a surprise, visit any kind of pumped. U s politician John Kerry, when he did it janet's, always yell and she's a pipe down into just joking those dad jerk. There's a dead joke,

You'll find what I had cringing with his hand in his hands, is vague, shaking gnats opened his computer load, double hull, reasonable, kids, so here's This is such a big big problem. When push comes to shove as diplomatic avenues get exhausted, two of the world's most powerful militaries make no mistake. They will go hot for these that's. It had seen as a necessity, and they do have the capability to reign fire. It's not a good. Situation and that's why war nerds on either side are already mapping it out. We don't have to get it, we're run it all along. We don't have to get into this war game, but if you have time and if you're interested check out, check, some work by a? U s, think tank called centre for a new american security, there's a great new york times article about it from last year, and I imagine

this. They said, okay, what? If three taiwanese semiconductor foundries, not all of them, three of them. What if they just failed? What would happen? How would the world react? First, everything would go sideways. Second, We, the west, would assume There was some kind of cyber warfare, possibly from china. This would ramp up tensions, and there will be an international crisis, as both countries attempt to secure their continued supply of chips and get control over over taiwan. The real physical control and what they found. Don't my game for you. These are world class experts. What they found was outside of straight military intervention, the? U S, couldn't do much on its own its years away from making chips anywhere near the level of taiwan cheer.

wait no earlier it might be impossible for them to catch up at this juncture, and one one line that really stuck out to us about. This is again. These are the world experts on this whole problem. They say the. U s is more dependent on am I conductors now than it was on. oil from the middle east during the height of the for fuel glory days and you give him about two earlier in terms of how quickly this you know down the tunnel. A timeline compared to oil are real I am on this stuff is very, is a blip right. So that's I have still not being talked about in the same way. We all understand the butter dependence on Oil- everybody understands that's its own they, because its historically does a longer time line. This has been an issue fails to me, like bureaucracy on the street. Has no idea what's brewing here agreed, I mean an end before

me either you can. We can dismiss this as alarmist right. can say. Oh people are doing perform political theatre because they want more money for their think tank. research and what have you but before dismiss. This is crazy. Talk. Let's all collective you remember what uncle SAM did. The last time people threatened oil supplies. This is no different. It's just a little bit more of a complicated supply chain and elderly that ok, right now, the review. You know ecologically ask at the end of this. Why As in taiwan, been the subject of an incursion ray of a real hot war invasion take over, Get me. I own the foundry, now kind of situation. It's because of what called the silicon shield theory, this industry, he is so important to chinese manufacturers

important a. U s. Consumers that. No one wants to tip the boat just yet lake imagine being stuck in an elevator. It's you're only way out of the building and you're. There was someone you absolutely hate. Hey it is kind of a non sequitur, but I'm just thinking about said the overall. We love when I'm looking at the store Surely what we just talked about. Do you guys remember the immortal technique, song peruvian cocaine? Yes, great, posse track. Ok, so I dont know I work very well you'll know of it is an amazing track that literally tracks where cocaine originates in lying in this case in Peru and then how it travels on.

Way to the united states. What entity supply change? Yes, but yeah, but it tells that story with different characters who are in that supply chain, as it makes it's way through and it culminates with. You know somebody on the street who's selling it and who ends up. You know good long prison sentence for some. Cocaine on matters probably scared not prepared to do years like Javier ok. So we need this call out directly to you immortal philippe. We need more of that style song. Explain of things like that, for just everything our we need is like, let's start print, in proving cocaine as a as a song type on different, looks like this

uygur and chocolate every eye, everything. That's that's a great idea, and now, of course, immortal technique may not be for everyone but even if you don't consider yourself a fan of her pop, even if You can see yourself, even if you have some differences, ideologically from their orders, very, very talented, very, very smart, individual and pursuing cocaine in particular is a song that is worth your time. It's just slaps. You might also know jack y- know the singer over the white stripes and ease the un's record company and record pressing. plants and he named his solo tour. Plight chain to her, because it took place kind of like when there is all these issues with them record, pressing plants being overwhelmed because of like our?

it's like Adele! There will be no it basically using up all of their bandwidth. The print their mean a massive A huge selling records because vinyl has become a really popular medium now will be much much. I the highest physical, medium of any anything cities, are based. non existent anymore, but that's it by jane, do- and it used to be that, like the plants that made vinyl records were all these, legacy plants and only just now have we started having smaller companies build new record pressing plants and that sort of helping to take the pressure off of these legacy ones, but even still, they can't tell them fast enough. Then amd I'm only using this as it does a parallel too much less. You know critical way with, if we don't get our vital records that sad. It would make me sad, but it's not cause a war by these things supply chain. Things are are very real Similar thing happening with helium, We work on enlargement superconductors today, which we

yeah, the helium shortage. Those is very real thing. You should think about that every time you go in a grocery store and you see those birthday balloons one day they might be something to talk about and later Jim racial say, you're full of it. Why? Why would when waste helium in a recreational balloon. I e the issue is with the semiconductor shortages be the issues so it s very, very, very expensive to try to build new found trees, not even the top notch ones, just foundries that can make you know pocket calculators, chips, its increase, labour habit prohibitively expensive. It may lead to a war, I have to see how long the silicon shield theory holds. We'll have to hope that the? U s and China can navigate

peaceful way out of this conundrum and, of course, war and instability. Statistically speaking at this point, they are on the horizon its due to a number of factors, stabilizing governments rise fascism in inequality, climate refugees, food crisis, water crisis, but semi conductor, chips, tiny, tiny things may well be the spark that sets the whole that's the whole party going. We can only hope. That's not the case. We want to hear your thoughts get going to try to bring up the intonation at the end, to sound a little more positive, big big thanks to some conductors for making that show possible and big big thanks to you for tuning in your folks, what what do you do you think this conflict would ever go hot? It seems like it

super terrible for the majority of the world, but, as the old quote goes when elephants wage war is the grass that suffers, we can't wait to hear from We try to be easy to find online as our little transistors keep transistors and now the little transistor they could. You can find us a myriad of places on the social network platform, formerly known as twitter, on youtube and on facebook, if they have a conspiracy stuff on Tik tok, an instagram work, busy stuff show You can also call us. Our number is one eight, three, three std w. Why t k it's a voice, mail system, you so the goal nickname you say whatever you want for three minutes just doing If we can use your name and voice on one of our listener? Male episodes, if you or net yeah, that that quick interjection I think on the sum our fellow listers my enjoy this. Ah, we're

fans of the phone line- and I can't wait to hear these special voicemail. voicemail addition that you, you know, did also confession. Sometimes I call the form I myself really. mario ominous sifting through I've more to do today on that all men Ben it just brought. Why does every I was listening way too much moral technique, so the revolutionary volume to an idiotic point of no return. that had eyes Some of them were just the best, they I've ever heard of my life like so so good, If we're a conspiracy show that we mean Like those lyrics through just like our way, what are they find underneath the temple of solomon? The way what like so that it is they who incidental jigsaw.

Ok, any! Yes, I'm going for you on the phone lines as well as everybody else? yeah if you what'd you that's not why not instead send us a good old fashioned email. We read everything that we receive. We are conspiracy, and I heard radio dot com.

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