The modern world runs on microchips and semiconductors. There's no way around it -- and the semiconductor business is perhaps one of the most important industries on the planet. But there are some serious problems (and conspiracies) on the horizon. In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel dive into a ticking time bomb of supply, demand, and conflict... discovering why these tiny chips may just be the thing that causes World War III.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn
stop they don't shoot. A production of. I hope we
blue. Welcome back to the show my name is met. Mine
there's? No, they call me Ben we're joint, as always with our super producer, paul mission control, deck and, most importantly, you are you, you are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't want. You to know we're finally doing it.
This is our episode about ships and, thank goodness because we talk about me yeah we take much it's a lot of air
it would. We were talking about instagram- add that some of us have been good.
for very, very
range potato chips, resource range in exotic, potato chips, ya, think both you and I
and have received one for a lays Szabo shoe hot pot. Flavor with seems delightful it. Of course, you know, you know, I think all four was frequent asian,
Supermarkets promote its quite a lot like the super h marks of the world and their you'll see this insane variety of chips. Thetis don't get in your real, humble kroger, republics or whatever, but
our not really talking about those kind of chips. Today, though early yeah, unfortunately, I guess we should. We should rip off the bandaid now
ships are amazing. Potato chips in particular, but there's a
another kind of ship that we're going to explore tonight. It is the kind of chip
that makes civilization, as we know it possible in the first place these chip,
often referred to as semi conductors. Think
that is, the silent servants of the digital age, depending upon whom you ass they may just
rigour, the next world war here- are the facts. Before we get any further, the
what is a semi conductor,
landed, no dumb questions, as speaking of that lets wishes just do a little
upfront information here for everybody. Listening
your boy: Matt is a dumb dumb and
it all of his research on ok, ninety nine superconductor.
if this is going on in the news I literally I dont know where I work crossed my simple
a semi conductors guys, but I'd
like I have no it
What's going on in this episodes, I'm gonna be just that
lately, we have lost
sorry, hurley that knowledge will come in handy somewhere down. I don't think you know, I don't think so. I think it will be like ok before you get into so my conduct has been told, tell us a little bit about the El K. Ninety nine that new sorter rocked rock.
the digital world. A few weeks back
Durable today
news came out that of officially p
move in trying to replicate this super, this room temperature, superconductor technology,
it came back and said no, its, not actually a superconductor, it does have really cool thing.
Going on about it,
but it's not a room temperature superconductor, which would would have to
the game for everything, including in especially chips since,
making doctors so anyway, will listen.
Did and intolerable semiconductors. I apologize guys. I guess that begs
You're talking about, first and foremost, the idea of conductivity you now and what
does it mean. I mean that not a new state, the obvious, but you now conducting materials,
are able to allow electricity to pass through them and can me
for all things like wiring and you know sending up, there are materials that are
doktor, where it's not a good thing in our you could it could be dangerous, see now, and you have to be very careful about you now having
christy around pools. Like you know, don't don't
drop blowdryer here and the bathtub and keep the toaster far far away. Is that's a recipe for disaster, but the idea of like something that conducts better
or less
better ways on the electric face, that issue of conductors is, does Urim and conduct electricity is gonna, lecture lights and around which it would you, if you really wisdom, electric fancied, you guys apt, I've got it.
But idea rally, not
It is. We know
can conduct electricity in near and is you know, you're like look what's water with the little some extra
I don't know, look. Luke law wants us to portray them that way, but on the other end of the spectrum, there's the insulators right leg glass is an insulator yeah.
Electricity is really vied with those. So when I was
when you were talking about fair, just, were recorded about semi conductor, a why. Why would you want something that is in this goldilocks zone between insulin,
you shouldn't and superconductivity? Well, it's because it
last year to control the flow it lets. You put so much that you put some. If then,
some ones and zeros into the mix and as your life
two tonight show there are billions,
little sue conductor, ones and zeros making this possible, even if it doesn't sound like a bunch of ones and zeros. Everything you do electronically is that I was sort of may the comment off my that
The name semi conductor almost sounds kind of like a bit of a cell phone or it's. I am not that good at conducting electricity, I'm only semi good at it, but that that matters, because we want to be able,
as you said, been kind of stem. The flow of
electricity in ways that are conducive to certain technological process,
in those those billions.
a verbs
It is, I guess, the ones and zeros the. If thence. That's what solemn?
where did all that's contained within this tiny little piece of real estate, dia, oh and in debt,
any real estate and must go back to what Ben you were saying about conductors and in insulators and semi conductors the problem with
metal, like copper or even when you get into things like silicon? When you pump electrons through their inlets, incur
electrons or just go, and willy nilly everywhere throughout that those ad.
so that copper, the electrons you go any goes everywhere. That's why you get resistance.
That's why you get heat in anything right like we were just talking about.
my computer is being so hot oven having these recording problems, it's because
this thing is generating a ton of heat, which is just the resistance. The of
electricity lost, basically due to the materials used in the creation of this machine
That's? Why send over time it's gotten less efficient, I guess, or the the the battery has
lost, some of its original warmth and how it sort of like generating way more of that then it should and which is why it's time to put that thing out to past. Also,
because the semi conductors there were manufactured back in twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen you know were of
a certain grade and they degrade over time right, yeah, one hundred percent, I mean so. The question is, of course, coming from a culture where bigger
there are faster, is always superior. It might seem counter intuitive to have something less conducted, but have
a semiconductor material because of
a resistance works. It allows
humans to make amplifier said allows humans to make switch
is an shout out to professor like
engineering, arizona, state university tremor thornton. I as a great explain her on this with the good folks at the conversation and the thorn puts it. This way
it breaks down the chips in a very understandable way. He says the
chips are typically made from thin slices of silicon and they have complex component?
wade out in specific patterns. These patterns control the flow of current you
gino switches, we're talking about transistors and
wouldn't says it's pretty much. The same way you can try
will the electrical current in your home. The light switch,
is a literal switch right turn off or on the on the floor of the electricity, but the difference between
the switches in our houses and the switch is in a semi conductor. Is that those
my conductor switches, our first off very
tiny hasn't
They are entirely electrical. They need no
mechanical components to flip- and there are billions of switches
tens of billions in the sophisticated chips, and this is an area like not much bigger than your thumb. They're, not even know your thumbnails brother, your best fingernail, now much bigger than your pinky gale.
and that's the part where I just my mind- is kind of glazes over where, unlike the system, for all intents and purposes, might as well be alien tec to me, like
understand a circuits in the basics of electronic, see no, unlike the. If then of like a
It's a printed circuit board like in a piece of musical equipment,
example and oftentimes, those will incorporate switches you now to turn
thing honour off whether it be blocking
no passing hour or like whatever or turning on a certain filter or whatever it might be. But this whole billions of switches in an area not much larger than the size of a fingernail is just I. I can't wrap my head around it. It makes me think a euro at some point. Well, at some point there will be
a physical limit to how many switches can be put on to a single chip. When you get to the when you get the
onto a single atom size. Right now you can't you can't go much smaller, but if we could
Surely you could you? You might be able to make so many switches that you can make a simulation of the entire observable universe. I am not high by the way
I'm not there yet. But I have to say to like me is this: is this? Is the amount of these switches, the number whatever that has to do with her
many processes, as a chip can do at one time we're talking about evolution of ships over time. These things I think, they're calling
reds or whatever, like within a computer processor, the the
our power chips, a higher power processors can do more. Of this can contain more of these switches. I'm just again, I'm I'm conjecture,
I'm pretty sure. That's right! That's a hundred percent! For a long time, people were following something called moors law and moors law.
is this stunning observation that the numbers of switches or transistors in an integrated circuit doubles. We're has doubled every two years. It's it's us
Donnie precipitous evolution. Not not all of these ships are the same. We can think of rough categories.
free chips, they stored data and software as binary code, digital chips. They manipulate the data based
instructions from software and the wireless chips receive data from high freeway
Radio transmitters convert those into electrical signals and then it's back to the chips this
all run by the language of software. More software. Does
even the very van stuff. It just coordinates.
Ways in which these different chips work together with that include things like our
You know using your found, a tap on a thing to do now: pay or like the way.
You receive receiving or transmitting short distance kind of data, yeah man, it's
It's pretty much it's actually it's weird.
It's almost easier. At this point, I think too,
try a name electronics without these sorts of choice.
Sk as their in everything, your phone, your car, you tv, remote medical applications?
Military applications are back in the day. Semi conductor
If evolution moved with the cycles of pcs, so the more personal computers improved the more sophisticated they became, the more sophisticated chips became and then iphones hit. I
once were big game changer. At this point, I think we should shout out our pal jonathan Strickland aka, the quicker from tax stuff he's had one
the longest running, tat podcast in the game and heat
the stuff in depth. If you wanna to luskin spirit
oil primer lonely here
phrase, smart device that me
There's one sums are some of this stuff
it's a little smart, anything yeah, right, you're, air service, tat, your washer and drier dreyer. She had every year
massage chair
such are, the wireless ship is also again I'm starting to be being this in the gambling. That's what allows you to to receive wifi
again so many of these smart devices have to be on a network and dont have ethan
port on them, so that they kind of chip. My you're, probably in addition to the digital,
maybe not memory. Joanna membership is more like ram on a computer for timber
very storage of data that is actually being used in in the moment they all work together and, what's what's nuts about it, too, is, if you think about let's, let's blow the dust off our old taco bell,
allergy from these basic ingredients you can make up,
I believe things that appear to be very different items on the menu right, taco values like
aim is for having what forty five
greedy, and also your thirty things, that's kind of how chips work,
but in the end, isn't it weird and I'm not high, to think that all
This all of the information is just an electrical current. Getting taken indifferent
corrections in hitting different things at different times and in all micro level. It becomes. Our voices in your,
isn't. He
yeah it becomes your favor,
television show on
acts or whatever, like did ah,
the human brain. Is that too? I'm looking at a very simple piece of electronics right next to me, that's
mano fanatics, synthesizer. That is just signal flowing alive
trinity that is filtered end and boosted and the different things happen to it.
It makes a sound and
literally a sound that we hear that has just vibrations carried on the air,
in all areas, sorry about it is mine blowing also, I gotta say on a softer folks. Farragut
piracy realised and also park, as planned,
this snail lying here. It might sound a little weird that we all three took a moment to say weird.
hi as individuals, but that's just because this stuff is so mind blowing. When you think about it, it's a big would sit everywhere. It's
breaks your head right, so
we know this evolution is not if you
are a fellow nerd of a certain generation, your first exe,
dreams with some conductors may have come in the form of pocket calculators. Member those old texas instruments, things we all had to buy what a monopoly that was a griffin
tia. I didn't learn so pretty recently how important texas instruments was in
the whole personal computer, few race, you know, there's a really
great, show called halden catch fire that sort of like a fictional ized version of like the race for like the pc and the laptop and stuff in parts of it are real and one part of Israel is the whole inclusion of of taxes instruments and they called it. The silicon prairie that area
of taxes that was really big in this stuff. Really.
Fast even before. Like you know, silicon valley became a thing
This was kind of like the ground, zero,
lot of this sub this. This research and development yeah an end
we ve already clocked the substance, silicon coming up
again and again by the where we're going to work as folks, those those pocket
the leaders, like you mentioned that, like the tea I eighty five and so on page three fours
through the one make member he puts it, lays down a drug that is worth it was just a text
It's like your own adventures. As all it wasn't. You got to be a drug king been remember. It was first time I saw the word lutes and I was they. What is loot? What are looming adult now it is up at. I also remember the old, a o o eight five.
You knows
taken as a the mirror, so
those things only had a few thousand transistors per chip still very impressive for us, but now the largest ones
going to have more than fifty billion
in transistors pushing to be.
Jim moors laws and mueller. Naturally,
so one of the most important technologies of modern civilization, who makes them
this is where it gets interesting, there made these compounds called foundries back in two thousand.
Twenty three years ago there was something like twenty three company.
Yes, they were doing this to some degree. As of twenty twenty one there.
Only three major players in the game, as as the free market dictates, they ate their own right,
fewer and fewer competitors, the three big, the three big boys, three charters,
The field are in, tell you who go
who
so long downtown down from the outer courier does. It ended in something called Taiwan
in semi conductor, manufacturing company or ts in sea. This is the kobe bryant of the game by far interesting, the abbot,
what sort of seems to be. It will add, a note will get there if its change names that I don't know. That is a household name like I do intel. I do think it's funny,
during interesting that the term foundry, like that's really old term, for like a
three. You poor, metal, molten, steel and things in making them make goods out of liquid metal foundry like
picture, where the terminator its lowered into the lava, with the end of t to spoiler lurk from twenty five year old, move well
we'll let those up the hill talk about that one. The taiwan, semi conductor, manufacturing company
it's in taiwan and they make what is its over half of all the
chips manufactured in the world right. Yes, sir yeah round about fifty four percent currently and additionally out of all
ships they make an out of all the chips in the world.
Ts him see, makes the best. Once the most sophisticated once we're we're talking about the new ones with fifty billy,
switches or transistors. Those are coming from Taiwan and there are
other players in the game, but at present, if this one company goes under or its operations are
is rubbed it for any amount of time. For any reason, the world, as you know it folks,
is going to run into a lot of problems very very quickly, so
You know, diversification is good in any field, but
times you can't have it right and sometimes
have to live with a reality, and if
Hi wine is indeed the holy grail for
the holy font for this technology, then a guess humans have to take care of taiwan. Butts
can a complicated because it turns out. Taiwan is a little bit more than a dope archipelago of safety technology moves
It's also a very let's say
important and strategic geopolitical location habit
Then they end. I mean really think about that, we're we're.
Joking when we say more
Things now that you can purchase there,
are above bargain basement like
lowest level version of a product have a chip in it.
As a standard and they are making fifty four percent of those ships they go in. All of the things has now
an internet of things, it's a world of internet things and if you ask any jus politics walk in the economist, any war hawk. You know, even if you get the buttoned up alphabet boys about three drinks in
and you ask him why what will lead to world war? Three they're gonna have a short list of things and it's gonna be stuff
climate refugees, it's gonna, be stuff like nuclear accountability.
Potable water and taiwan, because if things go
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Here's where it gets crazy. A war for ships could world war three break out over taiwan. The answer
unfortunately, is yeah man yeah money, it's
like a devils bargain right, you know you you, you make all this progress.
Surrounding this miraculous material that have
a shelf life,
I guess area there is a finite amount of this stuff. It's not just available anywhere, and you know you. Basically
hang your entire existence on the substance of this material, and then there
comes, it becomes the most terrible ships as a bargaining chip. It becomes the most out rage
bargaining, jabbing could possibly imagine
It's in the scary part is you even if you don't hear about it, often if you're not in the text,
actor or the war sector. There is already a war going on it's a cold war for now,
one as we record the west
is throwing economic sanctions, China's throwing economic sanctions, lotta people making big speeches and posturing, they're doing trade freezes that are specific
targeting the supply chain of semi conductors stuff. That so specific. It would sound weird, likewise
U s? Terrified that china is clamping down on things like galileo
when's the last time you were walking down the street, you thought I wonder how galleons doing urge germanium and and bennett
I made the common earlier that t s m c, wasn't like a household name to me, and I think that's true, but this still is?
this is the important component.
This conversation is that company and the fact that their
a household name is interesting
sell it. Yeah you're, not gonna, you're not going to buy their high in ships as an individual you're going to buy stuff from companies like apple that have bought ships from that company. They supply other business.
And governments, and militaries I mean it sounds alarmist re right, but in recent years the idea of a chip war has become a
it concern in the? U s, like people stay awake at night, worried about this because the pr see
has a really fraught cartoonish Lee tense relationship with Taiwan
They are super duper sensitive about it.
Even on this little pockets. This all free part cast. If, if you're, not diplomatic, when you talk about taiwan, it can spell problem
were you in customs, in in mainstream china linked to the point where they might
Let you in like getting out
comes a conversation that you don't wanna. Have it's it's tough, I mean, like ok of a war could break out at any given moment over any given
that's just the reality. Human civilization is a house of cards, but this thing these chips because the
what is so dependent upon them. They may be the proverbial
feather on the camel's back. The war might go hot because of this resource, dude blake. I had no idea speaking ts him see I
I did just how important they are to the nation of taiwan, the street name
Four ts m c is sacred mountain and such a big deal that if you work for this company, you can apply
I'd be exempted from military training. Even if there's
war going on, you can say I work for the chip company, though, and then I go crap me. What are you doing here? Get back to the foundry
more chips yeah makes sense of euro war. You gotta make war stuff in war stuff,
these to be smart, and if you don't have the chips, then you don't got the war stuff right, which I think is the
I don t right? That's their yup, that's like their intel bump yeah. So I guess we need to talk a little bit about
the situation between china and taiwan wise it so tense. Why? Why is it
So I I think it's fair to say it can seem cartoonish to outsiders, yeah, I've, I've. I've always had a sort of a vague grasp on this, but I'm super interested in getting a little more
the details of the history. There all look out breakdown, just what I think I know and then Ben you slip it will
we'll three blind meissner case: we're where not taiwanese nor chinese and oates we are not chinese is what we should say. Yes, because
the country of china, the people's republic of china,
as for a long time consuming
taiwan just to be china and with
he one china policy, everything.
It is. China is china, and that is it end of sentence. So Taiwan is china. It is a part of transacts right, except seer,
the human beings, that action
we run. Taiwan disagree with that sentiment
at roughly what yeah nailed it. That's in
that's right way. To put it so you'll hear you'll, hear called taiwan, china, taiwan province of China or taipei, china. It dates back to you
Nineteen, forty nine there were there were two political entities with the name: china. They both
lay claim to the entirety of the lad, the one, the p r c, the people's report
like of china. That's usually what folks in the west mean when they say china. It's me
when china and then on taiwan. There was the republic of china or oro, see,
which is a very bad thing to say: don't euro don't bring that up in beijing? Even if you think your children
everyone's cool at the carry oki spot because of that split? The piazzi, like, like a guy
set. The pure see considers Taiwan one
you're percent part of its country. The way that the? U S, considers hawaii a hundred percent part of the? U s and, like you said, a lot of people in Taiwan do not agree with that and if it, if this was not a part of it,
possible cause for world war? Three, it would be hilarious. The whole like Vonnegut Joseph Heller, ask
at twenty tunis of it
Every single country on the planet pretty much avoid talking about it,
tissue sometimes a western politician- will show there ass a little bit and then
immediately step it back, because china does not play with this,
You can even see the soldier to me. You can even see celebrities totally, not politicians totally not diplomats or anything just celebrities
favorite athletes, movie stars screwing up having us
like accidental, miss, speak and up
our driving through the world for daring to refer
the taiwan as some sort of independent country or entity we
a clip John siena doing it. We can play that right quickly. This issue in mandarin, you had an atlas player who knew her home? Ok,
the glib knowledge of the war. Zhao sina will be so sure tions a day. So do you teaching jaw, woods or hon? Do a sci, fi hundred wonder
So for anybody, not speaking manner, what John Siena is doing here, it actually not terrible manner. It is apologizing to the world to the people and government of china,
for accidentally referring to taiwan as a country.
and this is not the only example of this there
celebrities, who have done the same thing and wise
important to play nice with his government. If you are celebrity or public figure whilst because it's one of
the biggest growing consumer markets on the planet. That's why your favorite food
studios are jumping through their butts visa to get together.
The chinese government's permission to show their films right. That's why like in
I'm kind of alone in this, but I loved the pacific rim, films, member
are you kidding? I do only their good day. Robots tat thinks me anyhow, I love them and you can
really tell that, did that
you? You wanted the approval of the chinese government and in the second pacific rim, film, because
there's something about charlie day, not being able to speak.
Betraying there
there's, the insertion of this whole chinese government supply as like the good guy,
actually save the world. There's there's a lot of
a year and the main thing is no matter how powerful you are as a government or as a company or even as a billionaire. You just don't talk about the taiwan thing. You just don't bring it up. It's like, if you're at your friends house- and you see him yell at their kids, aegis
don't comment on what those even been at least one. You and resolution that like tried to
this in stone, or maybe china tried to set
in stone through the? U n, does they got
china as a result of world war, two being on the winning side. China is one of the few countries with a veto power right,
and the united nations had this white paper. They came out
They were the legal opinion that Taiwan is a province of china without
no separate status and China took that ran with two hours are stages set
one of the most important technologies. Probably the most important technology in the modern world is manufactured. It a ticking time bomb of an eye
right. The situation in Taiwan is full. Stop. No caveats spit is unsustainable. It is double plus
good, it's like if all the world's important computers were made on a glacier and the glacier was melting
I guess my question. Those like is: is it about their access to?
material: is it about their exports
t's and manufacturing the product like. Why do they have such a monopoly on it like? Why isn't it more diversified the ladder? It's an it's their expert
he's in manufacturing the materials that are used to make this stuff that goes to taiwan, but they don't
you're, not going to see a bunch of like gallienne Germania man? So
in mines on taiwan,
having no yeah their lives. Those proprietary like so when we get advances in the ship, it's because they figured it out or what
this is really really difficult to to make things with that level
precision year and don't forget there are people that intel- and you know all these other places that do manufacture factor chips just on a much smaller scale. They are also attempt.
to make innovations right, but
in materials and in in, I guess, technique yeah. But this whole
really does, and we ve talked about this before, but it really does give a perfect explanation for this
Three of china's practices of resource extraction, specifically in africa,
like where the materials are coming from and where they are going
and and credit where its do a lot of companies that are not in taiwan rate
lay companies in the netherlands in japan. In the u s, they
the design know how so the boffins over it intel can design a new chip and they can have that conceptual breakthrough.
but for it to be manufactured, it is over
mainly likely it will have to be manufactured in taiwan. That's the choke point, and it's a joke point that comes into battle
the? U s and China are there not friends there they're, not friends there, to people in a crime,
Restaurant, who are increasingly side I in each other and there
making these little moves daddy.
Really get in trouble for yet its huge technology.
arms race. And then u s. Companies have a big big dilemma: they need china, they needed
The china needs the companies too little. Bed were a big clients. You know where the money is coming from these cuts
these using their products, so it is its you're right. It's like
kind of like
mannered is sort of cold war. You everyone's assertive leg, let's not rock.
Two miles, we don't have the like each other, but we also have to figure out how to keep doing business. Well said, it's kind of weird, ok, so when I say
about it. I may be way off your it. I've, stats or anything, but a few
says, though the u s, companies like you're, apples and well- I guess I m saying- is not a? U s coming
but your apples in the? U S, markets for products being produced by those companies is has been huge, historically ripe, lots
but it's not as though it's a growing market right, because the? U s
a certain number of people who are going to buy, let's say a cell phone at a certain rate. You know every
couple of years or something you ve got you know of camp
jurors in cars and all these other things like major things, even appliances that use these chips. There's you've got a set rate, pretty
with a population- it is mildly growing, but not enough that it's you gonna
change the world of the number of chips you need to manufacture for them, but if you ve got a bull,
again incredibly from wrong here, but it feels like the country of trial
with a population that has country of like india and the population, it has an
as the number of people
buying new products increases in those countries that, with that's probably one of the biggest places.
There are concerned about when it comes to new manufacturing. Yeah yeah very well put
I would agree with that, because,
If you want to make money from the western perspective
need to be selling things in india and in china, David,
This exploding middle class, there's more money to burn, and there was historically and they will they will have that jump in consumption,
the? U s and a lot of other countries in a similar boat, their population
and are undergoing a greying out right, even with immigration thing.
are levelling off
The most apparent example would, of course, be the nation of japan right, which is gonna, have a lot of problems on the way,
China may encounter some of those same demographic challenges, as the bill of the one child policy comes. Do
in future generations. In all the firm aside, it led to infanticide of women, but right now china does need the? U s
The question is for how long will the new deal,
says their own domestic market grows. I they have
increasingly of the prc, has increasingly put in strict rules about how foreign companies can operate in their territory
and this leads to sky.
a high rates of industrial espionage, at least, if you listen to every government, except for the government of china or- and this is new
like I think I may have been to this before, but like theirs
synthesizer that I have made by our japanese company call Roland and that ships on it there are like their notorious foregoing, bad and the after prepare them
place them, but the reason they go bad is because they have this kind of like coating on
top of them like surrounding them, covering the chip. Part were you
actually see you know the shapes we're talking about those whatever like the path or whatever they are manufactured.
with those on it, then it have to do in order to repair them. You have to soak them and ass, a town for like a day and then dissolves it. But the reason for that is to prevent.
Does your espionage peer review? Have someone yeah looking at them coming down the line? They can't take a picture of what the circuit looks like because is covered in this kind of plastic.
material within that also causes. It's a trap, moisture and overtime. These chips burn out so there
notoriously faulty part, and now there are companies that make kind of clones.
visions of them, because I want you haven't you can take it off and do it. But when this is a new products they
anybody to steal it from right
I don't want to see before he did to this new export only see the following, not just because I want things to go
smoothly and mainland customs, because it is true. China's are fond of innovation. China makes a ton
enough chips domestically on their own. They are just not be sophisticated chips.
Mainland china makes, in taiwan, of course, makes world's best ships do so
There is innovation happening in china, this scouts and scale of it, but the? U S, government than you s, companies in particular,
feel they have uncovered a pattern, a modus operandi they. What these
is that they want to do.
Like? What's your car company
and you want to start a factory in china right because it's cheaper
manufacture some parts there you will be required to partner with chinese firms, will be required to hire chinese nationals in certain key positions and, according to these critics, the entire time these other companies are partnered with, and these
oh yes, they are still being up all the secret sauce, the manufacturing techniques, the proprietary strategies, all that jack.
Then, when they have extracted that
intellectual resource very go then done you're an empty juice box
so boom boom drink, your milkshake ray a guess so amgen understand fully the relationship between china and taiwan. So does china have unilateral, can
all over taiwan. You say that taiwan disagrees, but is china still? Basically,
dog or is there a dispute even in that? Is that the tipping point that that's on the edge of that particular dispute?
love, is worthy of liquid. It mats face disease, good niagara.
Read your mind a little bit mad like how are we going to handle this? One is a great question is: are really is wasting issues differently
leave her answer, yeah yeah, because,
few it depends upon whom you ask right. If you ask,
politicians in Taiwan
it will say the they'll give you probably one of three answers.
depending on their ideology, they'll say, will either one yes, Taiwan is
a hundred percent part of china. The way
alabama is a hundred percent part of the? U s to fail
hey we're going for a kind of one
country or one party to systems kind of approach. So
similar to how macau in Hong kong have cultural differences, but there still everybody amidst the part of china, hong kong was
british until late like ninety, ninety nine, without sufficiently chinese or the third, when the hot
the one that I get those politicians in trouble, they will say we are fighting.
before taiwanese independence, and the government of China looks at that like
As the latter words yeah, as those somebody in the government of alabama was going well, the kingdom of alabama has all
zack secession is based
right or wrong, but to the outside
perspective, especially since china isn't exactly forthcoming with this
and of information. It sort of a black box right leg,
the ok, so I am not alone in the indian. This confusion to making sure do know you're, not alone you're you're, with we're together.
On this, as is the majority of the report. There are some awkward conversations at the united nations. You know what I mean. It's on the level
trying to solve for
stability in the Middle EAST that how sensitive visits as what I was thinking here- you're absolutely right due to the the
if something came out recently, that I think everybody should check out
It was a sea NBC documentary called china's corporate spy war and its
investigation into these. U s allegations
in the us. There are mean rivals in in this.
exploration but make no mistake. Alot of europe
in countries feel the same way and of course, korea and japan and china will never get along unless, like aliens land, they are not gonna, be friends. So in china's corporates by war, this about it
fbi, sting operation to hear about this one. This. This surprised me colonel, know anything about this, but we can give you. I guess I quote
on no right up of this ban. I think that's what we're looking era this CNBC talking about it
It is about a chance.
These ministry of state security officer name shoe young june, who turned out to be a spy, and he wasn't spying on
the: u S, government, he was spying on: u S, companies yeah yeah, an important companies with important
Oh gee, like g boeing in Honeywell, here comes a court in twenty two.
Nineteen shoe yan joe.
Pursued an engineer. I g aviation.
valuable knowledge of the company's jet engine. Composite fan, blade technology,
as an academic official and using
fake name shoe was introduced to the g engineer, who was visiting nanjing china to give a speech at a prestigious university shoe, began a pressure campaign
get the engineer who had family in china to review.
more and more information about the engine tat. The chinese government had targeted hates me, your friend
johnny last name: blue jeans, hello, fellow kids,
in his. I tell me of your skateboard tricks, we'll all. I care really tell you about the engine technology, that's for sure
because I can tell you your grandmother's home address. That's right! Be a shame if something happened to me:
It sounds like a snooze fest you're talking about like composite fan, blades
in all this stuff, but it Harkin's
back to one of my favorite songs. You guys,
down rodeo from rage against the machine
I am telling your browser window there. There's one boy yeah. I guess we'll give you a small quote from one of them.
Says here. If I'm gonna correctly, let's see, let's ok, I found it
it's a thousand years. They had the tools we should be taking them
gee ride. I want the machine
They don't make another maria. So that's what we're talking about earlier does good, but that's exactly will return
email by china is attempting to get
it sees the means of production, the keys to production, yeah, yeah yeah, I love a guy. I love a good,
go to rage against the machine has one of the bands era. I guess there,
you call rap rock or whatever that actually holds up, because they,
We're truly hip hop like truly you know, zack de de la raja, incredible lyricist, Tom Morello, absolutely fabulous guitars, and so many of other bands that kind of came after them boo, but
It holds up. Yeah rage holds up, they gotta. They ve got a great joy with run the jewels jacked electoral guys on that
not going to send his campaign like they did my man for a hampton rages so good anyway? Yes, that and that's that's such a a stupid point. Matt, that's a beautiful point,
The idea is about empowerment, right woods, let's get to the chinese perspective and just
the second in the case of this documentary, here's what the f b I did. The fbi alerted general electric and they said you know you're compromised. There's there's a fox,
the hen house, there's a fly in the ointment and so
This really weird meeting, and I think it was Cincinnati with the engineer and they confronted him
and they offered him the age old, classic choice. They said you can
is the legal consequences of breaking numerous laws, or you can go
doing, what you're doing and just work for us
which I guess just make alert the fbi.
what information your sharing and one instructions you're getting
like that's literally. It
the end and in turn the fbi will the way that now that the way this stuff works is you will report upon
activity, you see give visibility right into what the
the forces are asking for what their prioritizing composite fan, blades, etc,
and then, as it gets a little more complicated as you
a little more switches in your chips of subterfuge
then you'll start feeding them fake information and the fbi. I'll give you more give you.
they'll, give you thickly. Ok, I don't want to go to
Ben to this, but this is kind of interesting
it similar to how a hollywood
studios. Will control for script leaks they'll give
if crew and cast different copies of a script with
Maybe certain lines: twitter changed
water marking things marvel. Does this
the mouse. Does this and so they'll keep a record of that? And then, if it,
give it pops up in the wild they'll know exactly how to trace sort of the chain of custody. Very.
Be smart, then they'll waterborne, those jokers. We know you liked the script tell us what you know
take the water
perfect add if you get that reference right
because it would make our it'll make our really all her. Let me know
surely not their bigger, bigger, meister fry,
If we look at the chinese perspective, just to be fair,
in china as a reply to this in various ways, specifically to this case, we mention from twenty,
seventeen and to the idea of intellectual espionage in general, and this is
we much phobic,
her embassy said quote: the chinese government has never
dissipated or supported anyone in any form in stealing commercial secrets
some people and institutions in the u S had been making false accusations. We are
the: u s side, to handle the case without bias and in accordance with the law and protect the lawful rights and interests of chinese citizens. Ok totally sounds good.
sounds closure. I didn't
now. The word xenophobic until just
seen a which is a sinner phobic new knew. This is new yes
it's obviously anti chinese sentiments or but more bigger than
At like on on some kind of level of racism,
I like the idea of like being anti semitic hotter. Besides the eyes tat answered you cargoes guys. Let's take a quick, but
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you as a proud to be so great. U s perspective is this. Washington has two big concerns. First, they are terrified that the chinese government will catch up,
the? U s military or surpass it in key aspects, and things do what's called
medical warfare,
the valley concern and, secondly,
very worried about some sun, some insult to injury. They think that
They think that china may leverage- u s technology, to do that so stated so. Crib the secrets steal the research
and then your starting on third base for the next innovation right you can do is called technological leapfrogging. That's because president XI ping,
dead look. China needs to be a world class military by twenty forty, nine
we are well on the way. A big part of that polish involves the work. Sorry, I've got a of get a lamp on a really junkie.
Oh tell way up, got get lamps on lamps keep that morning,
we're on the road, but ok, so a big
part of them push the evolves developing atomic weapons. Hyper.
on missiles, using machine learning or vienna. Potent pull a high for also
lots of stuff, including cyber
warfare and so on for those
most playing along at home to match earlier point to knowles earlier point: what do all
those things need
just delicious ships, they did the chips and china
make the most advanced ones yet outside of taiwan, no one
really make me super vats, semi conductors so
I don't have to
play the international trade game, the? U s has to play the international trade game and they have to make nice
it is. For that reason they don't talk too much. Trash
taiwan in china, because if they do and have tried
decides to shut down the flow of the semiconductor spice, my launch, then it is just it's gonna, be
storm. I know I'm cursing a lot in this one, but we can't over
Besides that and the u s wants to block all the
stuff. China needs to
Yes, perfect, when the chip hits the fad de Biden administration current you as president Joe Biden
in october of last year they put in they ratcheted up the trade war.
and they said: look we're not gonna. Allow you to buy stuff with? U S, origins! If
Are you s based business? If you,
could do business in the? U s, then you can't
sell china certain things
and they went to the netherlands and he went to Japan that both countries have some pretty.
Pretty mission critical, like manufacturing processes that are part of the semiconductor supply chain
japan and the netherlands to agree?
china is a pretty pissed they're, pretty pissed about it. Yet president, she in particular
is accused. The united states of waging a cold war style series of contain
The strategy is right and he's not wrong.
we now, but that's out of that, it's it's one of the two
in the end, the two about right- I mean something has to be done. Wouldn't you say banning this isn't an outright aggress
move. This is something that psych thinking ahead and trying to keep things
just ballooning out of control with this relationship right, sir,
lay drawing a line in the sand and well it's so weird me.
Because it's coming on the tales of news you ve, probably read about specifically about the eu,
if you're in the? U s about specific
companies were not allowed to do business with anyone anymore were not allowed to have their software.
On our hardware, tik tok, anyone
were not allowed to use their hearts
where to access you know, any networks will meet with its
again. These are like, but it's
was like soft rules that are coming forward or bans in its very strange, because the same thing is happening on the other side: right ooh,
The escalating tit for tat people are increasing herbs
got. These governments are increasingly trying to shut down points of access for for everything you need to make chips
An earlier this year,
Whilst the EU s actions, china and said, look raytheon lockheed martin there? U s companies, so tupac style. They said
Anyone who ride with you here
right. Does everything raytheon sound like a star wars monster? I mean really always in sins in it we talked about it too late defence industries.
Those companies have a weird habit of picking.
in agro names. I know the leisure
They wouldn't you say that at this point, like our governments between china and the mayor and in the u s are like pretty openly
trustful and suspicious of one another I mean it's gone.
At the point where their barely even trying to hide it anymore yet
Also, I mean that's why it's important doing to understand both per
factors, cause the raising valid points, even though their both intensely nationalistic, it's their job, if you're a politician for account
the EU needs ear. Trying wrap your country's interests if you're doing, if you're doing your job correctly. However, one of the issues is that
China is a culture, has a very long memory. The west has committed a trial.
please in china, the opium wars were entirely to force the people of Chad.
And end up becoming a nation of drug attics. That's some! Not you know if you, if you
in the chinese government you're, not gonna, forget that and you should not. So, of course they they don't trust each other for a lot of
His folks, the cold war, never ending its very much
zero sum game and the child
he's ministry of commerce the point about resource extraction? They just clamp
down galleon in germany in these two
elements that you need to make computer chips, fiber optic, solar cells, cetera right now, both sides
are still having diplomatic talks.
JANET it yellin. Whenever there is a matter of fact, Henry kissinger
went over to china in a surprise, visit any kind of pumped. U s politician John Kerry, when he did it
janet's, always yell and she's a pipe down into just joking those dad jerk. There's a dead joke,
You'll find what I had cringing with his hand in his hands, is vague, shaking gnats opened his computer
load, double hull, reasonable, kids, so here's
This is such a big big problem. When push comes to shove as diplomatic avenues get exhausted,
two of the world's most powerful militaries make no mistake. They will go hot for these
that's. It had seen as a necessity, and they do have the capability to reign fire. It's not a good.
Situation and that's why war nerds on either side are already mapping it out. We don't have to get it, we're run it all along. We don't have to get into this war game, but if you have time and if you're interested check out, check,
some work by a? U s, think tank called centre for a new american security, there's a great
new york times article about it from last year, and I imagine
this. They said, okay, what? If
three taiwanese semiconductor foundries, not all of them, three of them. What if they just failed? What would happen? How would the world react? First, everything would go sideways. Second,
We, the west, would assume
There was some kind of cyber warfare, possibly from china. This would ramp up tensions,
and there will be an international crisis, as both countries attempt to secure their continued supply of chips and get control over over taiwan. The real physical control
and what they found. Don't my game for you. These are world class experts. What they found was outside of straight
military intervention, the? U S, couldn't do much on its own
its years away from making chips anywhere near the level of taiwan cheer.
wait no earlier it might be impossible for them to catch up at this juncture, and
one one line that really stuck out to us about. This is again. These are the world experts on this whole problem. They say
the. U s is more dependent on
am I conductors now than it was on.
oil from the middle east during the height of the
for fuel glory days and you give him
about two earlier in terms of how quickly this you know down the tunnel. A timeline compared to oil are real
I am on this stuff is very, is a blip right. So that's
I have still not being talked about in the same way. We all understand
the butter dependence on Oil- everybody understands that's its own
they, because its historically does a longer time line. This has been an issue
fails to me, like bureaucracy
on the street. Has no idea what's brewing here agreed, I mean an end before
me either you can. We can dismiss this as alarmist right.
can say. Oh people are doing perform
political theatre because they want more money for their think tank.
research and what have you but before
dismiss. This is crazy. Talk. Let's all collective
you remember what uncle SAM did. The last time people threatened oil supplies. This is no different. It's just a little bit more of a complicated supply chain and elderly that ok,
right now, the review. You know ecologically ask at the end of this. Why
As in taiwan, been the subject of an incursion ray of a real hot war invasion take over,
Get me. I own the foundry, now kind of situation. It's because of what called the silicon shield theory, this industry,
he is so important to chinese manufacturers
important a. U s. Consumers
that. No one wants to tip the boat just yet lake imagine
being stuck in an elevator. It's you're only way out of the building
and you're. There was someone you absolutely hate.
Hey
it is kind of a non sequitur, but I'm just thinking about
said the overall. We love when I'm looking at the store
Surely what we just talked about.
Do you guys remember the immortal technique, song peruvian cocaine? Yes, great, posse track.
Ok, so I dont know I work very well you'll know of
it is an amazing track that literally tracks
where cocaine originates in lying in this case in Peru and then how it travels on.
Way to the united states. What entity supply change? Yes, but yeah, but it tells that story with different characters who are in that supply chain, as it makes it's way through and it culminates with. You know somebody on the street who's selling it and who ends up. You know good
long prison sentence for some.
Cocaine on matters probably scared not prepared to do years like Javier ok. So we need this call out directly to you immortal philippe.
We need more of that style song.
Explain of things like that, for just everything our we need is like, let's start print,
in proving cocaine as a as a song type on different,
looks like this
uygur and chocolate every eye, everything. That's that's a great idea, and now, of course, immortal technique may not be for everyone
but even if you don't consider yourself a fan of her pop, even if
You can see yourself, even if you have some differences, ideologically from their orders,
very, very talented, very, very smart, individual and pursuing cocaine in
particular is a song that is worth your time. It's just slaps.
You might also know jack y- know the singer over the white stripes and ease the un's record company and record pressing.
plants and he named his solo tour.
Plight chain to her, because it took place kind of like
when there is all these issues with them record, pressing plants being overwhelmed because of like our?
it's like Adele! There will be no it basically using up all of their bandwidth. The print their mean a massive
A huge selling records because vinyl has become a really popular medium now will be much much. I the highest
physical, medium of any anything cities, are based.
non existent anymore, but that's it
by jane, do- and it used to be that, like the plants that made vinyl records were all these,
legacy plants and only just now have we started having smaller companies build new record pressing plants and that sort of helping to take the pressure off of these legacy ones, but even still, they can't tell them fast enough.
Then amd I'm only using this as it does a parallel too much less. You know
critical way with, if we don't get our vital records that sad. It would make me sad, but it's not cause a war by these things
supply chain. Things are are very real
Similar thing happening with helium,
We work on enlargement superconductors today, which we
yeah, the helium shortage. Those is very real thing. You should think about that
every time you go in a grocery store and you see those birthday balloons one day they might be something to talk about
and later Jim
racial say, you're full of it. Why? Why would
when waste helium in a recreational balloon. I e the issue is
with the semiconductor shortages
be the issues
so it s very, very, very expensive to try to build new found trees, not even the top notch ones, just foundries that can make you know pocket calculators, chips, its increase,
labour habit prohibitively expensive. It may lead to a war,
I have to see how long the silicon shield theory holds. We'll have to hope that the? U s and China can navigate
peaceful way out of this conundrum and, of course,
war and instability. Statistically speaking at this point, they are on the horizon its due to a number of factors,
stabilizing governments rise
fascism in inequality, climate refugees, food crisis, water crisis, but semi conductor, chips, tiny, tiny things may well be the spark that sets the whole
that's the whole party going. We can only hope. That's not the case. We want to hear your thoughts get going to try to bring
up the intonation at the end, to sound a little more positive, big big thanks to some
conductors for making that show possible and big big thanks to you for tuning in your folks, what
what do you do you think this conflict would ever go hot? It seems like it
super terrible for the majority of the world, but, as the old quote goes when elephants wage war is the grass that suffers, we can't wait to hear from
We try to be easy to find online as
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I think on the sum
our fellow listers my enjoy this. Ah, we're
fans of the phone line- and I can't wait to hear these special voicemail.
voicemail addition that you, you know, did also confession. Sometimes
I call the form I myself really.
mario ominous sifting through I've more to do today on that all men Ben it just brought. Why does every
I was listening way too much moral technique, so
the revolutionary volume to an idiotic
point of no return.
that had eyes
Some of them were just the best,
they I've ever heard of my life like so so good,
If we're a conspiracy show that we mean
Like those lyrics through just like our way, what are they find underneath the temple of solomon? The way what
like so that it is they who incidental jigsaw.
Ok, any! Yes, I'm going
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Transcript generated on 2023-12-02.