The folks I have some exciting news stay tuned with preet is on the docket again we're up for a signal award in the news and politics category. The signal awards recognize the best in podcasting and we need you in the jury box, please head to cafe dot com, slash signal to cast your vote and help the cafe team get a winning verdict. That is cafe dot com, slash s, I g n, a l. You can also find the link in the episode show notes, remember, polls close on october. Fifth, thank you, as always for your support from cafe and the VOX media. Podcast network welcome to stay tuned, I'm preet bharara. Yes, there are individual health crises that we are having, but I think it's against the background of I see is a deeper moral crisis in our country and its immoral

just as I did any crisis where I think we have to double down on who we want to be. What is a character that we want to build back our country on what is the character that we want to instil in our kids? that's doktor, vague, morphine he's the surgeon general of the united states as america's doktor. He focuses on a number of public health issues including mental health and wellbeing, social connection, health worker burn out and help misinform should Andy serves as an adviser and president binds coventry. In response to his, The first surgeon general to host a podcast house calls with dr vivek murthy, where he. Guests explore the importance of human connection and the meaning of life. Earlier this year, doktor marthy valise, Our epidemic of loneliness and isolation and advisory warning of the mental and physical health effects of social isolation and loneliness document

and I discuss his role as certain general. The loneliness advisory social Media effects on youth mental health and how our countries responds to the pandemic has changed. That's coming up stay to support, for these show comes from crack in areas like the financial system. But different. It doesn't care where you come from what you look like you're credit score or your outrageous food delivery. Abbots ripped out was financed for everyone everywhere, all the time rack and see what crypto can be not investment, advice, crypto trading involves risk of loss. Gripper currency services are provided a? U s in? U s: territory, customers, but heyward ventures, incorporated gps disclosures at crack and die comes lash legal, slash, disclosures! Now, let's get to your questions.

So it won't surprise you to learn that have gotten a lot of questions this week about the civil fraud trial of donald trump, based on a case brought by attorney general of new york. Laetitia James does an email from Carla, who asks? Can you share your thoughts on day, one of trump's fraud trial? There is a thread from ad, very angry skunk, who asks any predictions on the trump fraud case will have a number of thoughts. First, my prediction to borrow from where the rocky movies pain. they already appreciate there's already been a ruling on the merits, count, one of the complaint, the judge in the case It's already decided in response to a partial summary judgment motion made by Latisha James his office. The donald trump is liable for engaging in a fraud that fraud, was to inflate the added value of various properties and things at he owned and that fraud, was the massive inflation of acid values, his representations he made to banks and insurance companies. Firstly, the trial is going to focus on what the penalty should be.

bear in mind also that this trial that unfolding on television does not have a jury, it's the judge, the same judge who ruled in this regent. Motion is gonna, make the final judgment about what the penalty should be that is not to say the judges already made up his mind, but we have some understanding of what the judge thinks about the defences with the dutch thinks donald trump credibility and what the judge them about the lawyers in the case does he makes that crystal clear? In the summary judgment, opinion At various junctures, he call some of the arguments made by donald trump in his lawyers, risible or laughable. In other instances, he talks about some of the excuses made an excellent is given for the massive estimation of acid valued. By saying this is a fantasy world, not the real world, So it doesn't sound like his amenable to somebody else nations that are given now another question people ask as far as predictions go well down from testify He likes to say that you want to do define and set the record straight. It talks of a game when he's not in the courtroom. But he's done the same thing before

in connection with impeachment incorrect. By mothers. Investigation is a special council, often says he wants to come, talk, but he knows there risks involved in. I would predict that if he testified in this case he'll, be decimated on cross examination of the problem, for him is this. Is this, case, not a criminal case. So certainly does not testify the judge. I would expect, in a final opinion, with respect to the penalty here would use his failure to testify against him. He can drawn adverse inference, as you are allowed to do in similar cases from the fact that a party chose not to testify and then I think, will be further justification for what I said. it will be a very significant penalty, lebanon donald trump at the end of this trial part the prom The trouble is, he didn't exaggerate a little bit didn't estimate, moreover, report his assets, just a little bit in the famous ample. The people keep using with respect to his is purse. residents in from tower. He reported that it was thirty thousand square feet when it was in fact only eleven thousand square feet. The judges I think, generously allows the fact that values,

since are not exactly a science and the summit references can happen. Ten percent twenty percent, not two hundred percent as was the case with a number of examples that are given in the opinion, was better down from this. one instance where Donald trump valued a property of his an apartment of his has been with more than any apparent never been sold for in the history of manhattan. That's the problem for him. He exaggerated and overinflated way too much and it's gonna be impossible to x, now. What about one of the defences that the trump team is put? forward, and that is that the people who are defrauded or supposedly defrauded among them the ban, They didn't lose any money, they profit from their business without trump, so there's no so there's no harm does no foul. First of all that, even litigated in summary georgian motion, and so clear. Whether making those arguments again when we're. Firstly, in the penalty phase, so I think it'll fall on deaf ears.

The other problem is ignoring a legal principle. There. Two different concepts of play here: one is the idea of restitution right. So if you defraud someone and you're a victim of the fraud, theory of how a penalty should be applied is based. what the loss was to the victim. That's restitution and here, of course, they're arguing that there's no restitution The banks didn't lose money, so there should be no penalty, but that's not the theory. This operative here, as a judge points out repeatedly in his opinion before the trial began, what's it play here is a disgorging theory which Focus is not in the last two a victim, but on the other, gotten gains by the miscreant by the prison. Engaging conduct with fraud and annette theory down from gained significantly, so sorry about restitution and victims. It's about discouragement and ill gotten. aids. That's why Donald trump is not gonna do well. This trial, in addition, all the other reasons I mentioned

this email comes from Chris. I prayed first time long time. My girlfriend is a one l, many a first year at and why you law, school and the one question sure ITALY asks me is along the lines of do I pursue public service or big law, given the speed with which a path must be forged, Do you have any advice for someone who is genuinely interested in both in which path is best to start with it easier to switch from the public sector into big law or from big law to the public thanks so much for your help best a useless as it pertains the law but support a boyfriend and massive fan and listener of the stay tune. Packets were Chris here, you're you're asking a lot of great quest. So I'm to answer the question, although I don't have a definitive, clear answer, because everyone's different anyone Different interests and needs in financial interest as well about since teach it and why you law, school I'll, tell you when I hell some of my students every year

end of the seminar I teach in the spring, I'm a big fan and promoter of public service. As you might appreciate, I actually encourage and advocate anyone who has some pension for public service to do that, you're, a lawyer or not. Actually, I also think, depending on what your interests, or you can start with public service, or you can start at a law firm, it doesn't really matter I'll. Give you the example of my experience. I went to law school knowing I wanted to be a federal prosecutor in the southern district of new york at some point but ST, and why, for the most part, does not take people out of law school? They want you to get some experience elsewhere. First, so I went to a law firm, a big law firm so to speak, then I went to a smaller from an active spent six years and private practice in what you call big law. Before going to the use attorney's office, and then I spent seventeen years in public service. They were left that job after being fired by donald trump. I started this media company. The thing that allows you to listen to this

I guess with my brother Vinny and then once again, I'm practicing law at a large law, firm, so private sector, public sector, private sector. Once again, some people do it the other way. There are lots of people that I know who joined public service right out of law school. They went public defender's office or the DA's office, or the legal aid society did that for a number of years then left her private practice. That happens all the time as well. Part of it depends on what your financial needs and interests are. If you come out of law school, like a lot of people do loaded with debt, it sometimes makes sense to go practice law at a big firm for awhile. You can pay off some of that debt and and enter public service. Waiter, and by the way you can do both at the same time, lots of law firms, including my own, have very, very robust pro bono programs. So you represent private clients, of course, but you also reference people in need who can afford legal services problem is a very very viable way to way your fulfil your interesting, giving back to your community and your country. While you practice law at affirm,

fan of doing public service whenever you can, whether it's the start of your career in the middle of your career, at the end of it or throughout your whole period of time, practising law. Good luck to you, Good luck to your girlfriend! This question comes in a tweet from twitter user at unclouded, hashtag asked preet what is jury nullification in what do you and your colleagues think about it? that's a good question. Jury nullification is basically a phenomenon which adjure or jurors based on their own sense of what's right and wrong, and what should or should not be prosecuted, ignore the law, ignore the facts and essentially acquitted defendant. Even though the evidence points to get We're may appointed to gild, so I give you an example in this happens from time to time in courts around the country, state and federal court, If so, I managed to get on the jury and gets to the one year process saying that can be fair, but actually believe that the drugs cause or an abomination and

should be legalised and no one should go to prison for distributing drugs and they get seated in a drug trial. It would be doing notification if that you're basing his or her own perspective about the drug laws. Votes to acquit even if the evidence is overwhelming, of the defendants girl? That's during edification as second part of your question. What are you and your colleagues think about it? What depends on which cause he's your talking about prosecutors by, condition if they bring a case and they think it's righteous and and to suggest is to convict someone of a crime as are enforcing the particular law, obviously want the conviction that happen, now occasion because invocation by definition means no conviction and I think pro It is generally the during all of it and, although it happens- and you accept its existence from time to time- is an abdication of what the jury is required to do. It's an application of the earth. Now, if your defence lawyer and that's what you do for living in a particular case, where the evidence is strong enough,

if you're bad in law is bad for you, you might embrace during a vacation. In fact defense lawyers. All the time you know implicitly argue if they can get away with it for jury nullification because they don't want their client be convicted, so is the bottom line is drew. Notification is a thing that happens. It's a phenomenon that is, written about studied degree. It is not it is able to be advocated or permitted to be advocated in court? You can't get up in court as it is, his lawyer and say the drugs a terrible, no one should be convicted of the drug laws there, are. You should engage in jury, nullification and quit my client. That's not permitted. Judges. Don't allow that because, as I said before, to not weigh the facts in the evidence is available, of your oath is adjure now melodic cases, prosecutors will hey when they get a bad result for them from their perspective that it was jury nullification. But often it's not going to be possible to know there is nothing wrong with a juror finding that there was insufficient evidence or the instructions given by the judge required consistent with their own.

And to acquit the defendant. Some people might have thought there was a lot of evidence. That particular Jura thought there wasn't so, will often be the case when there's an acquittal were hungary was during nullification play or not taught to know sometimes you will know, however, if a jury, or jurors, speak to the public or speak to the defence where the prosecution team and say in my example, from before I and the drug laws are terrible known to the jail for it. Therefore, I voted to acquit, but aside from that, sometimes it's hard to know I'll be right back with my conversation with doktor, vague worthy support for stay tuned, comes from simply safe when you're out and about with friends,

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saved outcomes. Last breed that simply saved outcome, slash breed, there's no safe, like simply said, doktor vague, worthy served as a nineteen surgeon general under president obama is currently serving. Nations twenty first surgeon general under President Biden. We discuss them, or of human connection in the waste. which loneliness affects our lives. Doktor van Fourthly, welcome to the show thanks so much breed them glad we're having his car. Patient. We have so much to talk about. This very important on your agenda and should be on the agenda of every american as it relates to health and well being but before, that so your name is vague, which is not uncommon, indian name, another vague whose thinking attention potentially running for present vague

Some have you ever been confused for the other guy. You know I have been actually other p whoa hiking conversation is sometimes them assumed that I might be a very promising. and I ve seen unused network, sometimes that they have confused us as well, sometimes used pictures of one of us interchangeably for the other, so it is and wait to use a picture of you for a vague promise. Warning. I have seen that happened. Yes and then do you call the justice department and bring the weight of the of the law and those people know now. I just have a good and I love the fact that dumb more people can pronounced vague properly now. So, yes, nothing good. So one we're plenary thing before we, into your your role in your mission in full, When I was growing up. The surgeons oh see ever coop, do you remember him? Yes, and he paid a lot. attention to the problem of smoking in america even hear much about that doesn't occupy.

Any portion of your time, a surgeon general in the modern era, but absolutely does in europe. But you are right and that we hear less about tobacco. Can we did back in the nineteen eighties when sir, recoup research in general. There are many many reasons for that, but what's important for eg, for example, that one of the reasons for that I said we have certainly made a lot of progress on tobacco. People are more aware of the harmful effects of tobacco versus when I, when doctor cooper, surgeon general. The awareness was much less, but there are also other issues that we find have taken centre stage here, like the opiate epidemic, the mental health crisis cove I and other issues over the last few years that have dominated public health attention. But the reason I'm glad you brought that up is because still today and tobacco costs us nearly half a million lives a year. I it is one of the leading killers I in vienna in our country and

a reason that we we have to keep that in mind, because we have not solved the tobacco problem. Many people think I'll cigarettes. We took care of that right. I know it turns out they, whether its cigarettes, or rather its now the rise if ye cigarettes among young people or you serve of smokeless. Tobacco lay chewing tobacco and other substances we are seeing more illnesses, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes and others which are linked to tobacco, so our off is still does focus on. Then we in fact have some work would be coming out in the months ahead on tobacco. But, yes, it continues to be a public health focus for the office of a certain gunnar. That's interesting. Let's take a step back Explain to people what the surgeon general does. What the surgeons those offices authorities in hours are and how you're different from the other sort of health. Can see that we talk about in this country the cdc, the and age h, H, s, etc or grey question hiding many people heard of the office, the surgeon general, but they may not know what those

sorted out does and the surgical has two primary responsibilities. The first is to communicate directly with the public about issues of critical health importance that could be about you don't work. Chronic illness is like heart, disease and diabetes. It could be about an acute threat that emerged that was covered over the last few years, but in my prior stint, surgeon general. That was also Ebola and physique a virus, but it can also be helping to make sure people understand notches what the problem is, but what they can do to address it. What steps can be taken? There lies their families, I actually help protect themselves against those concerned. So that is one of the key role of the surgeon general, their variety of ways to that which that communication happens, surgeon general reports speaking directly to the public using new channels. I've tried during my time but the first time I serbian and this time around to see her

we can modernize the office of the surgeon general. We began. For example, a pod gas called house calls, which are to take more thi to help you to create another channel to get the message out about health issues, so that is one of the key jobs the responsibility. The surgeon general, which is less known but equally important, is to oversee one of our aid uniform services, in the federal government, and that is a: u s: public health service, commission core. These are six housing uniformed officers. They include doctors and nurses, physical therapists, pharmacists, public health engineers and many other health professionals who served in public health rules and federal agencies across the country. But we deploy them during times of emergency aid to help with providing direct care after hurricanes and tornadoes help, stand up and strengthen.

if the public health infrastructure during major threats like Ebola or zika, are more suisse only covered nineteen, and we sent hundreds of them to liberia, for example, during the Ebola outbreak in two thousand and fourteen to help provide care and to help ensure that that volunteers and residents in liberia were cared for during that oboe break. So I am very proud of those officers. They do an extraordinarily important job and eat m, helping protecting the health of our nation. You think we need more doctors in congress. Yes, I also they many more nurses in congress, fewer law, alarmist one, although I've got it yes, lawyers and now that we have to look I'm a lawyer- and I I gonna think sellers lawyers who we could use some people from other professions. Although I have not been enamoured of every medical professional in congress either he looked no. It's perfect nam lawyers or medical professionals out of my

but the diverse you, their voices matters when you're making complex decisions on policy, and so that's where but human, you comes to health care. You need people who have lived experience, delivering chair working in the health care system having it periods, illness themselves himself, a unita variety of perspectives ultimately shape. What good policy ultimately becomes an and the absence of that, I think, really does a disservice to ask. As I dont adding a lot has he wills intentions are good and legislative bodies when they're trying to solve a problem, but I I've. Seen up close- and I suspect you ve seen this as well, then your time in public service, breathe you get to these Sure, sometimes, airline, five or six people sitting in a room and there having disk about how to respond to something I had a shape, a policy or final. You know final through comments before proposal goes up it legislators and its people in that room who have a major degree of influence about what is so what's proposed would certainly put into law whose a room matters, and this is where I think, the more diversity we have in our life,

the state of bodies and that sunkist by profession, but also in terms of age and background. I think that helps ultimately, fashion solutions that do work for everyone and we training our doctors properly in this country are met. The probe did we do we train them for the right number of years, have the proper policies in place for residences or does the medical profession, and we have these conversations by the legal professional. The time also does does medics Education and training need any kind of reform. In your view, yes, it does it it it. It is good in many ways we trained some of the best doctors in the world. I no question about that, but we can get better and we need to get better because the needs of the patients were caring for actually shifting and change

and I'll tell you a few ways in which they are in one of the things that we have historically not done. A great job of in medicine is focusing on prevention. Like thinking about like, how can you. engage in terms of your nutrition, your sleepier physical activity in ways that will actually help and reduce alike. you'll get sick. In the first place, we are very we're treating illness once it arises in medicine, we are less proficient at helping individuals and communities prevent illness, and so that's a place where I think our medical training could be stronger at another place where I think we could do better and are medical Any is around. Ye are easy when it comes to behaviour how to mental health conditions substances. Disorders. This is a place again. Historically there and been as much emphasis but were seen time and time again in serbia after survey entirely ever tell you that they did all in terms of the illness and and life lost. I too, the addiction

isis in america to mental health concerns. Especially suicide is unfortunately, just continue to go in the wrong direction. and so this is a place where we need are clinicians to be quite proficient at how to I recognise and assess behaviour, heart condition but then also either treat people directly or connect them to treatment. So this is it, With these are ways we can get better as a medical proof sure, but I also think, as a country pre you've got make it a bit easier for people to go through training. We saddle our medical providers with massive amounts of debt, often in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. And then we wonder why it is that they don't wanna, do primary care and going to very high paying sub specialty fields, and so I think that as a as a country, if we, if we think that as I believe you know we do that we need more doctors and we need more nurses to serve patients, then I think we ve got to think like more critically about. How we make medical training easier, less

naturally burdensome and how we all frankly make the practice of medicine what it should, which is an opportunity for a doctor and a nurse to work closely and directly with the patient to provide care as opposed to what it unfortunate, he's been trending toward in the last decade or too, which is more more time. in front of screens more more time, answering questions from insurance companies dealing with prior authors, asian and other barriers to care which don't serve patients and certainly don't serve health workers. Do we have a deficit of primary care physicians in this country? Absolutely! Yes, we do because, in your mind, basically sediment a minute ago, there's an incentive to to specialised areas, because her more lucrative yet because there more lucrative and also I because the quality of work for many primary care is not what it should be in other people I'll tell this and I trained in a primary care programme, breathe dad is a primary care. Doktor. My sisters are primary care, doktor debate. And we went ensure you know primer. Your training in there

Doing primary carries is why many people do primary care, they want to be able to have, good relationship with a patient to have a holistic involvement in their health to be able to be a part of their lives. But what many primary care doctors are finding is that it's becoming harder and harder for them to do that. Their spending more time with the administrative and bureaucratic pieces of metal image, only seemed to increase with time they're finding that, in addition to that happening. Bed in the bit we what's being asked of them is also increasing its nodded a coincidence and many times when guidelines come out recommendations are written, people will say well, you should see your primary care doktor about that issue. Its issues here, primate your doktor by that issue and so were adding more to the plate of primary care doctors, while the saddling them more administrative burden and need, them are also carrying a fair amount of debt from their medical training and a month I my father

in ten thousand twenty thousand dollars in debt. It's not uncommon for me to talk to premier doctors, who are dealing with one hundred hundred and fifty two hundred thousand dollars in debt and paying it off for decades, essentially constitutes another mortgage for them, so yeah not to say again physicians in oak again, oh in the grand grant scheme of things they they make decent money, they can then they can take care of their families at that's a good thing and that's important, but I think that we want more people to go into primary care. We ve gotta, make the work easier for them, like reading the administrative burden and reduce some of the debt burden that so many of them are carrying. You mentioned mental health a few minutes ago and I think it's and under discussed and under emphasised issue, although I think it's been focused on more in recent years. Can you make the case if there is a case to be made and there's a lot of work to be done and will get to the problems in a moment, but from an optimists point of Can you make the case for how.

focus on and resources expended on and attention to mental health has improved over the last few decades, both in terms of stigma, fast access, insurance and the rest, every gotten better, so the short yes, we have, and I actually I do think mental health as well as in europe. Green there is actually very encouraging story here that they reminds me often that when we do put our minds and our heads and our hearts together to focus on an issue of great concern that we can make progress since tell you some of the ways in which we may problem for for years and years, it was true that mental health was sorted this step child of, look I'll help, you didn't get the same amount of attention. Training support, I in clinics in hospital settings and medical education. but what we ve seen. Searches shift is a couple of things I in the last two decades, plus we have seen a greater willingness to talk about mental health openly. So the issue of stigma, I has been coming,

it's still there. So people people still feel ashamed to talk about mental illness, but change that cultural shift is happening in part driven by younger generations who, to their credit, have just realized that use. There's no purpose served in us shying away from tat He met something that so many of us are going through and so they're really helping change her. Are you able to quantify where their studies a quantifier of a metric for the reduction in stigma in this area or not? You know, I think there may be some service out there. I'm not tally familiar with them. That may try to do that. I think it's hard to quantity for few reasons, one because getting a sense of peoples shame is tricky because everybody thinks about the bit differently there. it always willing to serve even this. Openly or admit that they feel is very nature of the thing yeah exactly so. Surveys are a very tricky in this area, but I think many of us right

For those of us who we know, maybe in there are forty. Fifty six he's can look back and and and very clearly feel like you're reading more about people coming forward now, with their sir as her mental health you're hearing about it more in in workplaces, you're, certainly seeing schools and universities and grade schools are you're seeing much more. decision around mental health. So all of that- and if you look at legislators right you, you see more more lawmakers public figures. Talkin about mental health. You know about their own personal experiences. Are families experiences all of that Is a sea change from what it was twenty years ago, but it's not the only they? Were we made progress in a we have? Also? We have you know need to do more in terms of getting mental health in training into medical education to greater degree. We now have more curriculum dedicated to mental health, which is which is good and medical schools. We have from a coverage perspective. We had a parity law that was passed in two thousand and eight. The addiction equity

how parody act, which was intended to require insurance companies to combat in a reimbursed for mental health care, on par with physical health, guarantee no longer discriminate between the two, and that was a step forward in needed. It still had gone because it wasn't inadequately enforced and there were other barriers insurance companies were throwing up suggest about. A month ago, president Biden announced that the departure help ensure human services in partnership with other parts of administration, were now putting forward. Rules has strengthened the parity law enclosed some of those loopholes, so I do think other reimbursement They were making a difference unless he also when it comes to the provision of care itself, we of aid being seen. As this happen, critical of the last three years from covert we ve seen a surge in the use of telemedicine. which is actually now helping to extend our ability to bring mental health care to people and two parts of the country, that we're having a really hard time getting it think about rural areas, which may only have one or two men. A healthcare provide

as for a large number of people, You can now also get your mental health care through a virtual screen. add through tele medicine for somebody who might be in another state into the party or state that increases access, and that was something that was directly impacted by by cove at which exit the use of telemedicine. So these are all good things that are happening. There is and more that's happening. We ve seen in the last couple years breed the largest in vestment in mental health. That, I believe, but I've seen in my nearly thirty years and public health. That's a testament to what we can do, the country we put our minds to it, and we've got a lot more to do so. I hope that we don't take our eye off the ball and say: hey. We saw the mental health problem, we didn't it's still a challenge and more as to be done With respect to tell medicine minor standing anecdotally from colleagues and friends, is that there is a problem in some states so to become like is this a mental health professional that depends on the vagaries of your particular state right. So

It is not always true that if you live in state aid and theirs, scalable and affordable mental health, professional instead be that legally, you can do telemedicine. Am I right about that, so europe that. There have been barriers to providing that care, cross state lines and one of the things that happen during the pandemic, There was actually, in that emergency permission and authorities given to provide care across state lines. When many people said and clearly the president- and I certainly strongly believe this many in the medical field do as well he's at those authorities should be made permanent yeah that there is no reason that somebody who is struggling depression in nebraska should be able to get care from a medical. Provider in illinois, univee, virtually, and so there was an exciting and given to those authorities and the omnibus that was passed in the end of two thousand and twenty two, and but they need to be a. Push in or as many are pushing now to make us authorities permanent, because you know how it is.

especially when you are dealing with a pool of providers that are too small, we need to increase people's ability to access their care and his many ways as possible. Can you explain the logic is maybe a dumb question, so I'm at lower by training, and have to be admitted to the bar of each particular state that you practice it, but It makes sense in my mind, because other There's overlapping legal principles in every state every state has different laws. Probate laws are different. Divorce laws are different, business laws are different. As far as I am aware. Generally speaking, human bodies, the same in all fifty states I do we require separate licensure press she's in each state, and maybe I am missing something, but with we value and having a national standard for both physical medical. and and mental medical professionals, it's a good question and I'll tell you my personal view on this. This is certainly not reflective of a broader stance from the from the administration, but my personal view on this is that it would be my

more efficient. If we had more than national model, then estate baseball that scientists to see that It may not have additional requirements that they may want to make. For example, I give are living in a state which has a particular challenge with disease x. You might want your healthcare providers in that state to take a continuing medical education course and be proficient in how to recognize and treat that illness, so you could still have and you could tailor some of the additional training for clinicians living in a state, but the notion that you know you have to go through an entire new vetting process and eerie credentialing process for every time you move from one state to another state to me. They doesn't entirely makes sense, because much of the practice of medicine is similar. The criteria for depression doesn't change depending on what state urine, and so I do think it makes sense in an ideal world to have more of a national credit. Here.

In a type model, with the ability of states to layer on some additional requirements. Ok, let's get that done doctor I'm I'm on board what woman question about, Then I will talk about your loneliness report, so I've been during some people, talker excitedly in many many different areas, and we talk about in the past a million times but artificial intelligence ay I but the particular application of a high free in therapy. In other words, you have a sufficiently trained and artificially intelligent, large language model chat, but who can be syllable to someone to interact with them and give provide therapy at any hour of the day very cheaply and thou judgment is not really a human being set a pie in the sky thing, give concerns people going to to therapy with artificial intelligence which you're thinking about that when think the future is such a question,

part of this broader question of how he eyes any impact healthcare. Look I I I do think that hey, I as a lot that it can add to healthcare more broadly and in particular to mental health care and gay I can be any. I based tools could be very helpful in resembled helping detect unison. The one may be initially very subtle signs that somebody may be heading the wrong way in terms there met a halter or moving towards growth of crisis, and I do think from a council per se They, like there may very well may be I base tools. I could help actually dialogue with a patient who may be struggling and help guide them in questions to ask or to reflect on some of their experiences to things that are critical. You're, though, is one is before we wholesale say that a I can replace clinicians. I think when we have to pursue this interview. evidence based away, but we have to study this look at what the evidence is that I'm in trouble.

it shows us whether or not a beast tools actually help patients are not in use at guide. What we further develop and create access to What I second leaving those also important is, I I believe that there is going to be an important role for a human being in this process, not just in the provision of mental health care, but in the provision of physical health care as well. I think that there is a lot that he I can help do from gathering in assessing records to helping go through the medical literature, to look for you, no potential, diagnoses and and and treatments, and to check that you know a potential approach that a doctor might be taken, against establish guidelines is a lot of ways in which I can be helpful, but at the end of the day, breed a machine can hold your hand. And look into your eyes and under stand in a deeply human way, the loss it you ve gone through or the pain which are experiencing, and I think that's a very human experience, the one of things I learned early on in my medical experience, pre was and umbrella.

As from wise men. Tourists who guided me was they help me understand it did the therapeutic. The fact we can have. as doctors is not solely mediated by them, since we prescribe or the surgery so we might do it also, created through the relationships that we build with our patience, whichever their own therapeutic value. And that is something I don't think you immediately replaced with a high, so I see eyes augmenting guarded and operate operative word their doctors immediately and people are predicting. It's happened in some cases certainly has happened in the movies, we're making an assumption that you can't develop a relationship with ai. You know in an ai chat bot, and some people think that that will happen. Is that a bad thing why it depends? Look? I certainly think possible that people will get to the point where they feel they have a relationship with an ad hoc, absolutely in infected That's happening already in some circumstances,

The question is in so much leg is at a bad thing it's in my minded to question is: is that sufficient and I dont know We know that I think is- is to actually testa centre and actually study it, but my got feeling is that there will still be an important role that human beings play in this, says who saw that he I based tools can help you get started. A process or clarify what may be happening to you are alert you do when you may be heading in the wrong direction or spiralling made so that they can help you along that therapeutic process. But I suspect I especially in more complex cases that their role for a human being will always be there,

I'll be right back with doctor murthy. After this support for the show comes from into the mix abandoned juries and jerry's podcast about joy, injustice produced with vocs creative in April twenty two Three, the grassy narrows first nation celebrated the monumental victory by all. the canadian government, no logging companies may enter their territory without permission. Chrissy Isaacs was one of the organizers who made this possible It all started one cold december night in two thousand to when she and other indigenous people block the only road leading into their territory more than twenty years later, that blockade is still ongoing for chrissy. This wasn't just about forcing one of the largest logging companies in the world to forfeit its licence to log the area. It was about her

link after generations of mercury poisoning and environmental exploitation and ultimately about reunifying a community to protect their ancestral lance here? That story and the latest episode of into the mix subscribed now The. A few months ago, you released what you call this: and generals advisory and our epoch of loneliness and isolation, which I think is very important. Later to mental health overlapping with mental health. We talked about this issue in the park has before, as listeners may recall, specifically about the decreasing number of close friends. Are people have, especially among males, compared to a few decades

So some of this is due to social media screen time etc. Can you tell folks what was your thinking in doing this advisory where your conclusions were and where we go hanging out great? This was an issue I was not planning to work on if you'd asked me during my first dentist surgeon general and I was turning that off like whoa whoa is where were my priorities? I would not have told you. Loneliness was one of them, but this is one of the things I that one of my mentors August fourteen taught me in medical school, He said he's a vague. If you listen to me, should long enough, though often tell you what's wrong with them what's going on, but you ve got to listen So I was thinking about that when I began. My first sent a surgeon general, and I had this listening tour that I began with, and I would just go to different towns across amerika and is ass people. How can I help and then travel just shut up and listen? You know

I like what they had to say in some of the things that I heard were what you would expect breathe in. I heard that people were concerned about diabetes and and heart disease going up and they were worried about cancer rates, they were concerned about violence in their communities, but when I didn't expect breathe with I sought to hear more and more stories that sounded like people were lonely, they wouldn't use that, were they wouldn't say, oh hi, my name's preach the our money jake, I'm lonely. They would say things like you know. I just feel like all burdens in my life. I'm just carry them by myself or college students or member of caution under campus of a large public university and the south told me she said you know I'm surrounded by all these other students, but I just feel like nobody really knows me, and I can't be myself. I have heard so many others tell me that they feel invisible as they walk through life and if they disappear tomorrow, nobody would in care- and I was hearing this pretty interestingly from people who are younger and older

as hearing them from parents from seals from members of congress. Who would tell me behind the doors of how they were struggling with loneliness. It seem like everyone that I talk to. There is some way the shape or form a wished. Loneliness is touching their lives or the lives of people around them, and so that led me down this path to investigate more deeply, and I discovered two things in that investigation, which ultimately led me to issue this report. One was, the loneliness is extraordinarily common. So what I was hearing anecdotally was not a one off. It turns out wanting to adopt struggling with measurable levels of loneliness and the numbers. Rushing much higher among kids Secondly, I learned riches. How consequential loneliness can be that there is more and more data telling us that, when people struggled with the sense of disconnection than being lonely, you're being isolated, that their risk of

depression, anxiety and suicide went up, but their risk of physical illness went up as well, including heart disease, dementia, premature death and on a wet. So that help me understand something. didn't know before, which was dead. Loneliness was much more than a bad feeling. It was a public health issue and one has both immediate and long term effects on our well being I be remiss, providing also say that there's a personal element all of this as well for me, which is it even though I didn't think of this as a priority or public health issue. In the beginning, it was an issue that was familiar to me. I had struggled a lot with loneliness as a child, So many times I faked having a stomach ache and didn't because I don't want to go to school, The vienna is an elementary school and it was not cause. I was scared of teachers or tests, it was, I don't want to. I don't want to walk in the cafeteria one more time in chile. I wouldn't have any want to sit next to in one we could have sat with each other. We

I wish I had. No, we went to different schools and an indifferent decades yeah, but greet the interesting thing is I've talked a classmate since then you know who I went to school with it funny thing is. I thought I was only one firm, a waiter in their time, and many of them said he. I was found that we too, I know other people were, and it just Oh it's a representation of just how loneliness scattered across our country, is its made us feel badly its had an impact on our help, but we felt like we're part, the only ones going through this cause. You look around right, whether you're looking at someone social media feed or at what they are, how they Themselves, you know in the public sphere in private decision and we become by professionals, are putting. Asked son making it seem like everything is great about our lives he had so many people are in fact struggling will do people you see who are not your friends are in public in people could be more social, interacting public. You go to a party, no be looks, lonely necessarily be not seeing on people who are sitting at home wishing that a friend they could talk to hear and even at par,

these breather guttural, pretty. If you ve ever had this experience mental party, I know it, I know for sure you have it He- and I were at a big gathering some years ago, but now be the thing I ve noticed is that In my own experiences and as you can even be at a party and not feel like that, europe than anything whatever and feel like I've been if I've been a party like the two degree when ojo the air, so they did very common. But I I it was zero. Many many people are so bring in silence by themselves, not recognising that this is a really collective struggle that we're going through, and so I asked the advisory and loneliness and isolation, because I one wanted people to know that this is an extremely common issue. I wanted- and I also know that is a really consequential issue, for our help matches are individual help. The health of society, but we know that when committees are more connected pre that they tend to be more economically prosperous, they tend to have lower rates of violence. They also tend to be more resilient in the face of adverse.

by hurricanes or tornadoes, and so in the advisory I lay out is not just the extent of the problem, but the frame for a national strategy for how we can, as a country sir, to address Allow me in this crisis, which I will I worry, is stealing away. Our health are vitality, Taliban, our well being so. The pandemic obviously had an impact on this issue. Do you think the issue of loneliness and the trend towards this problem predated the pandemic and was only exacerbated by it or dependent. in some way provoked this crisis that you written about so definitely preceded the pandemic. The pandemic surly poor gasoline on the fire, but this is a this- was an inferno long before covert arrive on the scene, and it was a quiet one but nvidia when it was the result of a few things, but there were happening. Pre covin, like one in the house

tree or so prior to covet there is a decline, is significant decline in people's participation in the organisations that used to bring us together. They include church, including church and other faith organizations. Recreational league saw service organizations, participation all of those went down, but the other thing that has happened is that you know we became the beneficiaries of this extraordinary. I timesaving some cases, timesaving technology, which has allowed us to get packages delivered to our door, never need do, of course, restore anymore or retail store. Or you can get everything in her to come to you or for a movie theater. You can get everything in home and that is convenient, but one of them actually consequences of that, as we have less interaction with each other and day to glean, which ngos with neighbours committee members, but I do think with also that the the advent of Some media- I worry, even though the term

social media would seem like they fear. The goal is to bring people together and I do think, there's probably the goal, but any effect for many people has been that they ended up. You know sitting will use to be offline relationships for online relationships, that often of of lower quality and also, I think the use of social media from any people, especially young people, led them to experience erosion of self esteem as a constantly compared themselves and not just a few people a day as I did when I was in school, but to some cases thousands of people a day as your scrolling through images and that dick decorate in self esteem has had a materially impact on their confidence and interacting with other people in building friendships. I it's contributed. I worry to the loneliness that young people in particular are experiencing today

So what do we do about it? You have some ideas here, so I think that their actions we can take out at three levels as individuals as communities and as government, and to be clear that this is not one of those problems and Government can solve on its own or should solve on its own. That is. This is not just a policy problem. This is a technology issue. This is a cultural issue as well. I think, just a certain reverse order from the government perspective. I think the government could certainly invest in I in research in this area, to help us understand more about their drivers and the solutions to loneliness. They can also help break a sort of build out aid. True national strategy that can help and bring partners together. Stakeholders actually help address and implement them. but on a community level, there's more, we can do. We can actually help invests in build the organizations and forces that used to actually bring us together? We talked about faith organizations and about the new power of recreational leagues.

And social organisations and community service, no efforts. These are all of forces in our committee, which we need to to read. I think of them is the social infrastructure in our communities, which we have a chance to invest in, but as individuals. Lastly, I'll say that they are steps we can take today, like each of us, for example, can just take a few minutes each day to reach out to somebody We care about just to check on them. We can make sure that, when were with other people with catch him with family or friends, were fully present that were not distracted by our devices. the time, and even if it means we spend less time with them five minutes of being fully present. What someone can often feel, like thirty minutes of being distracted, conversations extraordinarily powerful and

and finally as individuals, we can look for ways to serve each other on the serving of each other can be simply helping. Someone has dropped their papers to gather that may can be checking in on somebody who's having a hard time, a colleague who sat a rough day at work and softened by the end of the day, to get them a cup of coffee or just to see how they're doing There are many ways we can serve, but these small acts of service pre are extraordinarily powerful, antidote salami because it is in the service of each other, that we forge a trunk action, but we also remind ourselves. Pre, though we have value to bring to the world, which is something that we forget when we struggle with chronic loneliness because with chronic loneliness, we often come to feel that were lonely cause we're not likeable, and that can become a perpetuating downward cycle in connection with all this, you have the view about whether people should be coming back to work or not. And by the way, the people who are not coming back to work physically to prefer to be remote whether his lonely or not, that they perceive certainly

advantage to being at home every day. The week most days of the week were, employers might have a different point of view. But is that exacerbate the problem? And is it your record? nation. For these mental and loneliness issues. The people come back to the office, He ate this. This is really important. Is I think, with with return to work. I think, worry. Sometimes it we set onto this debate that everyone should just be able to be remote and early or they should all be back in the office five days a week and the reality we're trying to bounce a two things. One is that for for many people having flexibility to be able to work from home either for part of their time or much as most of their time can be profoundly helpful. If you know for family reasons, if they might be, You know taking care of a sick relative at home or if they have a long commute, it could save a couple of hours or see your kids from from time to time. If you have a long commute exactly many people who work work hard in office, they dont didn't see their young kids, that's exactly right and and

as a parent. I know firsthand that being able to make it home for dinner, for your two with your fear, kids, before they head off to bed, is a big deal and to it it's really where did our relationship, so I think there's a lot of advantages to being a having that kind of flexibility. Will your back? What's in that against it outside which I think we have to acknowledge that relationships are much more powerfully built in person then virtually, and that is for a thousand reasons that I think are probably intuitive, but just the on schedule conversation it happens when you're in an office the few minutes it you might arrive early to immediate chit chat with folks there or the couple minutes you might stay. Afterward, did you say say: can I noticed you here, you seem Maybe you weren't dumb. Ten bother me in that meeting due in china about it, like those kind of conversations, is don't happen as often when you're virtual, so I think, part of any will work. Places have to do now is a one like it into one more clearly,

and transparently assess the needs of their workers, but second, to create opportunities for people who may be doing hybrid work to gather in person. On a regular basis from time to time. Unless he will, we have to do is work places, I think he's be more intentional, but how we foster connection between people in the world This is something I think we just what we took for granted that if you throw a bunch of people together in an office building that over time, they will kind of meld and connect and find a way to have a healthy working relationship with one another wild. That does not happen. In fact, loneliness in the workplace was an issue long before cloven came onto the seen and cigar barsad a approval was a professor at wharton and was actually my old business school professor. He she, had done. The research showing, in fact, anomalies, loneliness common in the workplace, but it was also consequential that but when they struggle with loneliness and the workplace, there were less

engaged in their productivity was lower. Their creativity was lower and this all has implications for retention. So you can't take it for granted that just because you're bringing people back you know to some degree that they're gonna bond will we do in our offices. We once again have something simple, that we call our here means of always gi exercise. I was she sent for office of the surgeon general, but it's a ten minutes once a week. We have won t member interview, another and they'll ill that any aspect of their life is on his it's not about their current job. And we learned so much in those ten minutes breathe. We learn about what they were and when they were kids, you know what worried them. You know who, through their parents, what they really do. They rely on during difficult times. We lie about them as a human being and often end up feeling so much closer to them. As a result, that's a result of ten minutes once a week, so we gotta think about these kind of to ask a question about that. Yeah. Of course,

Anybody feel like that is getting too personal and there's a blurring of the line between personal life and work life. Ah, that's a great question. Look having lines between your work, life and your personal life are absolutely no healthy and they're important. to me. That's different from allowing people to see you as a human being, to the extent that you're comfortable, when I may not be feel comfortable sharing elements have personally less that I've been through with the folks at work, but it might be comfortable sharing the fact that Tom I had this great experience of my kids last weekend. and it just me me so excited about being a dad. You know we may have different thrashing, so what we feel comfortable sharing and that the point of these kind of relations that I'm described, that we have in our office and the point of activities at a workplace bay craft should be to allow people to share what their comfortable with environment that feels comfortable for them, and so

It is something that is having achieved a book is one thing. I am very clear on a brief, which is that as human beings, we have like three basic design all this across cultures. We want to be seen and understood for who we are We want to know that we matter and we want to know that were loved. We that's a fundamental life, need that we all have an people want to be known in the workplace for more than just their skill set they to me like you, and I have known each other for for a little bit- to me you're more than just creep the legal mind. You know who does brilliant analysis, the gear, also the human being because I and a unit have come to understand and learn about the pieces of your life over time. It makes a difference, to people when were seen as human beings versus s skill set. You may the difference, how we show up for work and how we problem solve and how we build relationships with each other and any workplace. That cares about not just their their people, but about output about retention. They should care about fostering those kind of bonds, because they really matter for the output of a business

very well put. How concerned? Are you as the surgeon general but but this is an american about the rise of the anti vaccination movement, not just with respect to covered, but with respect to other things. We mostly vanquished in this country, and I keep here anecdotal reports of of certain diseases coming back into the schools, because people are not vaccinating how big a problem is it? What can we do about that? This is a big problem. Pre and I am very worry, about it. The amount of misinformation that is circulating about health overall, but about vaccines in particular, has become quite profound, and I do think it's a crisis. It's one of the reasons why the very first product I issued a surgeon general was an advisory on help. Misinformation and will were seeing is, that that spreading from covered vaccines to other childhood vaccines which for years, have helped to reduce our kids exposure and suffering from illnesses like measles and

there's, so I worry that that progress is being rolled back and more broadly. I think it points to a challenge that we have about misinformation and how to ensure people have access to accurate missing. accurate information and when you talk you, u reference to I earlier in this conversation, this is a place where I was or that a while can provide plenty of benefits to humanity. I think one of the child we just we're, faces that using more sufficient Technology means that you can also mask missing misinformation and make it look like its legitimate, like it's an actual scientific paper or its coming from as somebody who's a trusted authority, even though they never truly actually said that, and so I do think that this is one of the great health threats that we have got to address or over the years. And it's not going to be easy at underwent. Interesting, happens, you're produce it. I find it is, will become less and less certain about what they can trust online, interestingly, the river more back to

some of the channels that we relied on pre internet, which is ok. Will what are my friends doing? What is by tell me: is there some written a cartoon network or, let's of leather, I hope that's a resource. I go back to tom and jerry yeah when I'm cross with the world of tommy's joliet medical advice center. I think I just need to give up at this point that there's a lot of workplace violence. A major there is absolute ebert issue, all separate issue, You are the surgeon general in the abandonment of vision and again, the surgeon general in the binding ministration, how the hell, it was times different for you and are they different because we're in different times or because you've grown or because we had different presidents in charge of different administrations? It's really a question. The experiences are quite different actually, and I think some of it is me. I think I

if changed. I hope I've changed for the better as a human being. I certainly have learned from my mistakes the first time around and and I made mistakes spun of personal front, the first time as surgeon general, I did in the most painful of those was making b Many him a conscious decision, but allowing my my friendships and my relationship with family to really slide during that time to be neglected- and I told myself the story, I think perhaps others might. I recognise witches that hey. I have this unique opportunity for short period of time. Let me put everything I have into it and I'll catch up with the rest of life later, but you know I just talked to a dear friend of mine, my best friend from middle school, whose mother was imperfectly. Good health, then dumb the other day in church that had a terrible

splitting headache and lost consciousness about an hour later and had it catastrophic, bleed in her brain and ended up passing away, and that happened if the blue- and it was a reminder to me when my friend called me on the phone that sunday morning not too long ago, that we don't know how long we have. We don't know how long our loved ones are around and decisions like the one I made back when I was first surgeon general to just you know, neglect those relationships in favour of work for a few years. Those are not good decisions, and I regret that and I had to learn from that this sector, I'm around so that my member one, when present by nass me to come back and serve. I talk to my wife about it and, She looked at me and she said vivek, what's going to be different, this time

and she didn't mean in terms of the work. I knew what she meant. She meant in terms of how I handled my relationships and might you know and family responsibilities, and so you know we ve worked really hard together to make sure that I protect. That time you know, I think it's me to be different, such as in my quality of life, but on a scene my perspective as well, because I have through the lens of my friend stories in my time with me, Children come to see so many of the challenges that were grappling with around mental health around coven anything. It's made me a better surgeon general to have those relationships. Let's hear you say that the other thing that feels different to me, creed is it feel that our country is fundamentally in a different place. And not necessarily in a better place. But I worry that as bad as I thought, the exhaustion and despair and polarization was back in two thousand fifteen and sixteen when I was serving

I worried that it has in some ways worsened and now and that it is taking a huge toll on people's just overall mental health and well being of people across age group. As well and as a father. This is what concerns me deeply desperate. I I like, I think, everyone out there once the world to be better for my kids. I want them to be able to look at the world and feel like there's a reason to be. the mystic, but I also want the world price to be hospitable for our children. I want to know that if, if our kids stumble and fall, if they make a mistake that they won't be cast out or ridiculed or be rated, but somebody will give them the benefit of the doubt and may be helped them all. I wanted to know that they give a in or are in a really hard spot, be no inner struggling that somebody will, you know, not judge them, but actually help them get some assistance, and I want them

to be able to do the same thing for other people as well. Better there too many times breathe. Where have I travel around the country, and I hear people say you know of a vague, it feels like it's become more important to be right than to be, find a more important to be powerful than to be into be right here for to be powerful than right, yeah and and that is concerning to Me- and so I look at what is happening in our country right now, and I think. Yes, there are individual health crises that we are having, but I think it's against the background what I see as a deeper moral crisis in our country and its a crisis that identity crisis, where I think we have to. We have the double down on whom we wanna, be what is their character that we want to build back our country on what is the character that we want to instil in our kids and to me, it's very clear that I I want our country and I want my children- should be grounded phenomena

in the core values of kindness and generosity of service and friendship, I know many others want that to if we want that we'd that has to be reflected in how we lead our lives, how we engage with each other with how we advocate for issues that, even if it impact us impact other people it has. Those values have been found. How we choose our leaders, how we invest in our communities? If we don't do then I worry that we will continue down a path, whereas so many people feel now we are becoming the meaner and more isolated and more concerned about our stars? I just don't think that's fundamentally, who we are? I don't you do it it's you who we have to be, but I think two of that we need a moral reawakening in our country and we have to start engineering that today,

vague marthy surgeon, general united states. Thank you for your service and thank you for your time today to great pleasure. Thanks so much breathe my conversation with doktor. Vague marthy continues for members of the cafe insider community. The membership for just one dollar for a month had a cafe dot com. flash insider again, that's copied out, come slash. Insider No one in the show this week by honouring California senator Diane Feinstein, who died at eight ninety last thursday, five I had served in the senate for thirty years since ninety ninety three and I had the privilege to get to watch her and action when I- working as an aid to senator trucks, humour on this in a judiciary committee. I want To revisit something that I said at the end of a show in February,

shortly after Senator Feinstein, announced that she would not seek reelection in twenty twenty four. It's no look at. Why so admired senator Feinstein, and it feels appropriate today to revisit these memories and to acknowledge the massive legacy of this trailblazing, public servant. I want to end the show this week by talking about a true giant of the Senate, when I worked as an aid to trucks Schumer on the Senate judiciary committee across pass with that person, I'm talking about Diane Feinstein of California, who, at age eighty nine last week, announced that you would not seek reelection. So that means that twenty two four we'll be fine signs, thirty, second and final year in the senate, making her the longest serving woman in the history of the chamber. Now anyone who follows the stuff closely knows that the last four years have not been. ie for Feinstein Chiltern. Ninety this year and its plain to see

he's not the senator. She once was. There have been reports, a number of them of how her declining health has impacted her ability to do her job that saddens me she's receive a good deal of criticism for it for hanging onto long and much of it is intimate though I should note that I heard it less loudly about male senators, like Robert Byrd and strom thurmond, both of whom died in office no matter how we're career ends. Feinstein was a pioneer and a trailblazer in a true original, and she should be honoured for that. Just look at how she first came in the spotlight- it was nineteen. Seventy eight and Feinstein was president of San Francisco's board of supervisors. Developed a reputation as a moderate, effective member of the board, but her political career seem to be nearing its end. She had lost two elections from air and found

self. The target of an assassination attempt when a domestic terrorist group called the new world liberation front planted a bomb at her home. The bomb fail to go off, but she would go on to lose both her husband and father to cancer. in the same year by november of seventy eight, she was telling reporters that maybe it was time for her to step back from public life and then a different kind of tragedy struck one of our colleagues and friends: supervisor dan white shot and killed both mayor, george, must coney and supervisor harvey milk, who is one of the first openly gay elected officials in the united states and the murders happened at city hall just feet from Feinstein office. Amid all the chaos and confusion, Feinstein stepped up to a bank of microphones too, to the world. What had happened and to assume the role of mayor that image of feinstein of competence and calm in the face of crisis. Would become indelibly marked in the minds of san franciscans, she would

I want to leave the city for ten years, and I, ninety two: she ran for the senate and one in what would become now as the year of the woman from her perch on the Senate judiciary committee, she became a relentless advocate for gun safety. she author, the ninety ninety four assault weapons ban and following its exploration in two thousand for attempted again and again, to renew it before many of the gun. Safety groups came into existence, there was diane. Feinstein she's also serve on the intelligence committee, where, during the bush administration, she help initiate an instigation into the cia's, so called enhanced interrogation techniques that were used in detainees during the war on terror. When president obama took office, she became Chair of the committee and she battled the cia and white house officials

ten the investigation and make its findings. Public per staff would go on to produce a six thousand seven hundred page torture report and on December nine twenty fourteen the day, the executive summary of the room, it was finally made public Feinstein call the cia detention and interrogation programme a stain our values and on our history, there is even a movie about it. Feinstein is played by an bening. As I mentioned, I have an opportunity to one Feinstein a close, and I can say that nobody worked harder than Diane Feinstein, with the possible exception of my boss, chuck humor, and she high great people like humor and tat kennedy. She was able to recruit and retain smart first people to turn down high paying jobs in the private sector to do public service. She understood that to make a difference you needed, team and that's no small thing like most senior senators. Dan Feinstein gets to no other staffers and they get to know her. At least that was true when I

urban the senate. I remember one time Senator Schuman. I went over to her this to me with her energy council with milk and cookies to talk about a press freedom bill. I remember other time after going on the Atkins diet, having in too many hot dogs and ships and fast food snacks. In my time, working round the clock for senator shimmer centre Feinstein at a hearing looked at me and said: pre have you lost wait, I have to admit that made my day. Most importantly, I remember the time that she refused to do something her democratic colleagues are some of her democratic colleagues on the committee wanted her to do when the Democrats were in the minority. that was boycott of vote so as to deny the republicans a quorum on some

vote for a nominee or piece of legislation. The Democrats didn't like and she refused. She said, I'm not going to avoid coming to work. I came to the senate to work not to hide and work. She did. Feinstein has displayed guts and courage, unlike her or not at a time when members of congress, increasingly favourite soundbites over substance and focus on personality, more than policy Feinstein has dived into the work, it's always about the work, and that is something to honor and celebrate so senator Feinstein. Thank you for your service. Well, that's it for this episode, stay tuned thanks again to my guest doktor, vague murphy,

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