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we'll personalized email and text messages to your customers at just the right moment. Helping you more money with clay view, do you build better relationships with your customers by engaging in exciting them get started for free k, L Av. I why oh dot com site box today. Cafe and w unwisely studios welcome to stay tuned. I'm prepared our intelligence, community and their analysis are your eyes and ears. If you don't believe them. If you don't pay attention to your flying blind that J Johnson, protection of the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama, big with him about running the age S, borders secure, The election interference It means when elected officials, dont trust, our intelligence agencies and whether being the debt, needed survivor, hisses glamorous, as you think that's coming up, but first, let's get to your questions today.

being cuban portion late Wednesday morning as we always do, God knows what is going to happen between the time that I am taking this and you listen to it. But that's happened already. Let's talk about that. Obviously, a lot of people have been asking me on Twitter from my family. Members have been asking me about the rate of Michael Cohen Trump lawyer, Michael Cohen, his office, his residence and even his hotel room. So a couple things first, There are times both in social media on Twitter and on the show, whenever

up in arms and freaking out about some news breaking for the furthermore investigation, where I say I don't see what the fuss is. For example, there was breathless reporting some time ago the bomb alert issued a subpoena. Oh, my god, that's what prosecutors do sometimes news as hyped overly and such a big deal. This is not one of those times. The search and raid microphones office, hotel and home is a really big deal. The search that authorized by a judge and always has to be authorized by a judge of lawyers it is, an alert materials is really significant. It happens from time to time. It is not unheard of. I ever saw an office where we did it from time to time, because sometimes lorries commit crimes, do, and sometimes lawyers commit crimes along with their clients and

it's like no one else is above the law is not above the law either, and you cannot always hide behind what is otherwise a sacrosanct principle of Attorney Klein privilege to prevent any action being taken against you, including investigative action. So the thing to understand about the rate of Michael Cohen is it's a big deal. It means something significant as happened, and it's not unprecedented, I will also say that if I were still U S attorney when this was going on, and I were asked to approve it, I would want to know that there was a lot of evidence just the bare minimum, you need to show probable cause that there is evidence of a crime in any particular location and the regulations actually provide because it so sensitive to search a lawyers, home arrests or office that the

personal approval of the? U S: attorney overseeing the investigation is required after consultation, whatever that means with folks at main justice in Washington, and so it's a big deal. I think if you can undertake an action like us against a lawyer generally and in this case the lawyer for the President of the United States in such a highly charged atmosphere with such high stakes present. You want to make sure that there is a decent chance that you're close to being able to charge. Michael Cohen, again I say this with all the usual copycats, but the fact they took this dramatic action, I think means Michael Cohen, has as a great likelihood of being charged criminally, and I would be surprised if that happens even

by the time you listen to this podcast. The last time someone associated with the Mueller investigation had a no knock raid done on his home, with Paul Manafort and some weeks later, he was charged with a crime, and I wouldn't be surprised if Michael Cohen was charged now. The question is: who did the raid, who authorized the raid and there's been a lot of conflicting reporting, and I was a little skeptical at first that it was Bob Mother authorizing the raid. But the reporting seems to be, as of my taping, how on Wednesday that, through some procedure by which Bob Mahler and other evidence of a crime relating to what Michael Cone was engaging in the best reporting that I've seen suggested, he went to rod roses tying. The deputy train general, who then basically cut out this part of the investigation and basically referred it to the office that are used to lead the southern district of New York and the first I will off the bat. Is that the people who are overseeing in handling the search and the investigate Michael Cullen. If it's in fact being led by my old office is being done by line prosecutors, most of whom

are either hired and or promoted, and so have, I will admit, a tremendous buys here in favour of their intelligence. Their professionalism dedication and their integrity and if they are doing a thing like this, I've gotta believe that then the same way they did when I was there the cross devotee and they dotted every eye, because there is a lot at stake here now, the core those whose leading up the investigation in the southern district of New York into initially, there is a lot of talk about Jeff Berman, who is the interim United Attorney whose hand picked by president from after he remove me and then after he removed June, came my successor, my immediate successor, Jeff permanence republican jeopardy and has contributed money to the trunk campaign. Jeff Berman was interview personally by Donald Trump, and it may be for all of those reasons, and additional reasons were not aware of. The reporting also suggest that he is accused himself from the case. So I believe that to be true, I dont know if he had to refuse himself, which is not in the interests of the optics that he would refuse himself there. A career people also

in my old office who advise on ethics. Matters have been there for twenty thirty years. Same is true for people at main justice, so Jeff Berman decide to accuse himself so now who's rough who's running the show too great question. I believe it would be the deputy: U S, attorney who's the guy, with the name of Rob Karami, rob his army. I should tell everyone: is personal friend of mine and a professional colleague of mine, ease in a lump of those treaties office. He was air as a career prosecutor for many years, then what to private practice and then went to work as the chief of the enforcement division at the Securities and Exchange Commission. In that capacity, we in parallel with each other prosecuting, among other things, all those insider trading cases you may have read about so rockers Army was. It was a partner and is now come back to Sdn. Why full circle

as the number two and is probably be acting. You his attorney in charge of the Michael Cohen Investigation and another important point, aside from the fact that I think that he's a professional and in a good person and has a lot of integrity, he is a Republican he's, unknown Republican. He was a supporter of George W Bush. He actually spoke at the Republican National convention some years ago, the point of that is only to say that it is hard for someone to criticise anything going on the microphone investigation that rob his army is probably leading as being political because, like everyone else, it seems, was involved and overseeing everything happened with Russia, investigation and now the Michael Cohen. The commission is a member of the President's own party, so a lot of this nonsense which, frankly, I'm getting kind of sick of- and you probably already sick of bomb Alors republican ROD rose, assigns Republican Jeff women.

Republican Jeff sessions, Republican, Rob Karami? Who may now have an important role as also republic, and so I wish people cut out this political nonsense is not about politics. It's about the rule of law and people are following. As far as I can tell to the letter, the policies of the Justice Department. Here's one more thing I was going to say about a search, whether its of a lawyer or or any one else, quite frankly, just because there's probably cause to believe that you know someone committed some crime, but it is probably possibly to prepare our committed, a crime that does not allow prosecutors and agents to go search. Every place that I go. Every premise that belongs to me, you actually have to show in the difficult showing with fresh probable cause recent in time, probably cause not only that there is a belief that treat bar committed a crime, but that there is evidence in support of such a crime likely to be at each of the premises. So just because Michael

One may be suspected of a crime, doesn't mean you can search his hotel room. You into tells you a lot about how much this investigation has progressed. They would have had to show to a judge in a serious way that there is reason to believe that they were fruits of the crime or evidence of the crime at his hotel room, which may mean that he's been under surveillance for significant trade a time it may mean that they had been, they have other communications and knowledge to show that there is actually items relevant and probative at the hotel room it is not an easy thing to show that we ve had allowed debate. When I was yesterday in the office Knowing that we had sufficient probable caused, assert someone's office or perhaps a crimes were committed, is a very different matter and a much bigger deal to be able to show that there are also is evidence at someone's home, and it tells me again, the microphone seems to be and a hell of a lot of trouble sets a sort of basic overview of how I'm thinking about the raid on Michael Cohen and a lot of questions about it. Now, let's, let's get to some of them. Here's a question from Twitter user Toby

who writes at prepare our how does rating a lawyers office work with attorney climb privileged. So it's great question and when the people of and talking about a lot, as I said doing it Search of a lawyer's office is a big deal, because it's a big deal, they're explicit guidelines about how you're supposed to go about it. You want to be very sensitive to the attorney client privilege, but it doesn't mean you're above the law, so number one. You have to get the approval all the way to the top of it. You was true. In consultation with the criminal vision in Washington DC to make sure there are not easy

Ways were less intrusive ways of getting that Evans, for example by subpoena. So typically, you would you'd want to have a shilling internally that documents are being destroyed with it. A subpoena will not be complied with, or time is of the essence or some other such showing to justify using such an extraordinarily intrusive action. Second, you and make sure you continue to protect nature declined privilege, so you have what is called depending on your jurisdiction and what the nomenclature culture is in. You, office, something called a clean team or attained team, you have sometimes lawyers and investigators who will never have anything to do ultimately with the investigation with underlying investigation who take great care in the search itself and then later in working through the take from the search to see what appears to be attorney, Klein, privilege and often they'll, be back and forth with the lawyer for the person being searched as well. to keep away from behind what we call a wall to keep away from

the underlying investigators and prosecutors, in the investigation, things that returning Klein privilege and then you maintain separation, the very serious aberration, that's monitored and and and complies with all ethical requirements, the material and the knowledge of the people who did the taint or clean review from the people who are actually gonna, pursue potential charges against the person whose premises were searched and other such complicated, because it is complicated and it's very labour intensive, but we have procedures in place to make sure that no train claimed privilege is violated now seven. Apart from that, I want to say two things. One is a lot of things that happen in a lot of things that are said, even if their said and done by a lawyer are not protected by the eternal Klein privilege Michael Account, for example. Reportedly, did a lot

The things that you consider legal work, their reports that he liked to brag about the fact that he was now trumps fixer that he was radon about which a great show on Showtime who would has on advertise with his yet for some reason. But you want to make sure that your lawyer is engaging in thuggery and intimidation and fixing your legal problems through extra judicial, non legal, sometimes criminal means so if, if Michael COM was intimidating people, withered, Stormy Daniels or any one else, or advising Trump on business or any other saying that it was not legal advice. S are covered by the eternal plant protein mobsters all the time in an if I regret, making the comparison to mobsters or not time will tell, monsters. All the time would try to shield all their conversations in discussions and business dealings by half. the conciliatory constantly airy, depending on your pronounce it in the room.

And it was a well known ploy to try to shield everything. But if that lawyer, simply by virtue of having a law degree, could prevent anything from being discovered, then the rule of law would not be serves. That's point one point two is: there is an exception in in a way for law enforcement to pierce, the attorney Klein Privilege add occurs in the case of something called a crime fraud exception. So if you're, you might imagine that common sense tells you the law should allow for a piercing of eternal climb privilege. If the lawyer is a crook in cahoots with the client. You want to be able to make sure that people who doing bad things together are able to be held accountable, unable to be prosecuted. I can't say any better than just as Cardoso whenever one of our greatest jurists in America once said it, this way quote the attorney Klein Privileged takes flight. If their relation is abused, a client

consulting attorney for advice that will serve him in the commission of a fraud will have no help from the law. He must let the truth be told. Close quote that about sums it up. So a lot of stuff is not a turn problem. Even if your lawyer and then even if it is a turn, a clam privilege, if it's in furtherance of a crime is not privileged either. I put my name, is right and kept them calling you from Hoboken I'm a civil litigator ever question regarding the common work, as I understand it, the warrant resulting from a thorough by the special council to the active use. Turning from the sun district. Wouldn't that mean that the investigation will be handled by asking why and continue even if Trump succeeded in closing down the special council destination, they stood Michael Framework Rhine from Hoboken thanks requesting. Yes, I think you are absolutely correct and whither consequences of this peace, of investigation being chopped off and get

to my old office. That, as I said many times, is incredibly independent and we'll go with facts and not take them. Is that no matter what happens to buy Mahler? That investigation should proceed and maybe will proceed to nothing because there's not enough evidence to prove a charge and if there's not a no charge should be brought but for the first time, we're seeing some offshoot from Investigation that looks like it won't be stopped. You can't be stopped even by action. That would be, I think, outrageous on the part of Donald Trump, namely the firing about mother, directly or indirectly, of course, of charges are brought or about to be brought at present still has the ability to pardon anyone, Michael when or others who may be in the crosshairs, but I dont see away legitimately or even pragmatically that you can shut down a separate question. Why investigation once it has started and and boy it has started its limit,

the Cuban a session by talking about the one question? That's on everyone's mind, anything everyone's worried about will buy mother be fired well before it can be fired. The question is by what How can you be fired- and you may have seen this week- the spokesperson for the poor, So how could we Sanders stood up? I'm at the White House and when asked the question, does the president? He can fire by mother. Her answer was president believes that he has the authority empowered to fire Bob mother. So that's interesting that I believe it Anders says, a lot of things from the podium bitter demonstrably false, she was very careful not to say that the present does have the authority, but, as she does offer her own elocution now is careful and she says the it believes he has. The authority in the president, as we have seen over the course of many months, believes many things that are also demonstrably false. So what's he entered the question? Does the president have the authority directly to fire by mother. Well,

The relevant regulations sometimes are worth taking a look at, and I happen to have them regulation sitting in front of me, which talks about the general powers of the special council and I'll I'll. Just read it to you. It's very short. The special council may be disciplined or removed from office only by the personal the attorney general, the personal action of the attorney general because artist, the attorney general may remove a special council and a new read some basis. They include misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest or for other good cause, And it also says the attorney general shall for the special counsel in writing of the specific rules. For his or her removals of these regulations are in place to afford. A modicum of protection, independence with a special council which no one else essentially in the dust Department enjoys case in point me united Attorneys attorney General

the attorney General ROD Rothstein all can be fired. They can't be fight for a corrupt purpose that could be a problem if it was a interracial discrimination or in exchange for a bribe. Generally speaking there at will employees political appointees at the president. They can be fired at any time and they How the constitutional right thereafter to start a podcast that are some people who might argue that it is not appropriate to put this kind of limitation on the present because if you remember these equity branch, the theory goes, the present should be able to fire you and have his own team critical. If you don't have civil service protection with special counsel, doesn't have, but these regulations are in place in these regulations have to be followed and If I were about mother and the president, its call me and said. Thank you for your service. We no longer need you and you ve been a terrible special council. Having looked at,

regulation. If our about mother, I would say thank you very much, but until someone who, I believe by the regulation is authorized to fire me by taking personal action persecution by the tray. No, I'm gonna keep coming to work, and in this case, obviously just sessions is refused. So the attorney general for these purposes is rod roses time and then you might be at an impasse. but I don't believe the bomb or a pack of his bags? If the present told him he was fired, so how does the present go about removing Bob Mahler then? Will you get someone who is in the position of the attorney general to do it right, rose assigned, doesn't seem inclined to do so. He's been very vocal about power. But mother he apparently oversaw and personally steered a portion of his investigation to the southern district of New York. It's not gonna, be him. I guess you could fire him and put. Someone were pliable in place or hope that the next in line who, I believe the solicitor general, though my we're pliable and might take an order from the present to do the firing, The other possibility. Is you just rescind the regulations and theirs. a debate based on conversations of habit,

but about how easily that's done. I don't think the president can just sort of ordered to be done. I think be. He could tell the attorney general to start a process by which regulations would be rescinded, but I think it has to follow in particular, so that it can be challenged in the courts? So as far as I can tell until these regulations are rescinded, or so who is in the chain of command appropriately in the Justice Department decides to fire, but mother. He sitting tight, however, were crazy times and I don't know what kind of advice Sarah Sanders is talking about the causes trump to think he has the authority to, my mother, but it has had a minute ago, it would be an odd and unusual circumstance and we stand off. If the president claim based on some legal authority that I am not aware of, and that are not press in these regulations that he has the power. Fire by smaller and by fuller reads the regulations differently. How that's gonna work, never stand off. I'd prefer not to see

my guess this week. As former secretary of the Department of Homeland Security J Johnson, he served as a head of just under President Obama. He was all the General Council for the Department of defense. an alarm of mild office, the southern just New York. We cover a lot of ground Guantanamo Bay, prosecuting terrorist border security, russian interference and past and future elections and his role the very first person to resign from the trunk administration. That's coming up statement. Everyone on April, twenty six I'll be recording alive episode of stay tuned at the world Famous APOLLO theatre in Harlem, my guess, is the amazing bottom uses. A world renowned comedian, known as the Johnson to the arab world. He used to be a surgeon.

now is a satirist he's hilarious, smart, witty and has an unbelievably courageous story. You don't want to miss it get tickets for state And through Ticketmaster or APOLLO Theatre, DOT, com, slash calendar and because I love my part listeners most of all for a limited time, get dollars off each ticket. When you enter code preach twenty, that's preach to oh I'll, see you there. Secretary Johnson, thanks for joining us thanks for having me it's really great to have, we have so much to talk about how we gonna get I'm looking forward to our discussion. You had you ve had so many jobs, both in the private sector in the public sector, and keep a job, well tell me about it. Look at all of them. But what was your favorite job in public service and why well funny! You ask the best job, I've ever had in public service was being and assisting United States attorney in the southern district of New York. That's great dear

I thought you might like to hear that I was hired by Rudy Giuliani and nineteen. Eighty eight, I was there for three years. I did public corruption cases. I tried. Twelve cases in three years argued eleven appeals and, U S attorney's office in Manhattan at the time was really an extraordinary collection of people. You had Jim call me Louis Free France, towns and then friend, Rigorous Dave, Kelly, Pat Fitzgerald and wasting David Fine Diedre daily. Really impressive group of people who went on to be: U S: attorneys career prosecutors, main justice, judges, cabinet, official cabinet officials, one or two to FBI, directors and was by far the best. Job I ever had in public service. as a young lawyer, learning how to try case, always in court, doing the right thing for law enforcement and for criminal justice,

and I'm glad I had the experience it. It's been the offshoot for almost everything else. I've done sense. Let jumped to your time in it written of defence. You at one point served as General Council to the air force correct under Bill Clinton, correct and then their President Obama. Do you, Sir, for a while, as the General Council to the Department of Defense warriors heavy lorries, the Department of Defense, good question, most people, cats, Adam the answer you think maybe three or four you'd think. Maybe three hundred I ask students in classes how many lorries do think there are in the Department of defense. Everyone is listening when you didn't take many legal under it about eleven thousand question. Why on earth does a department, defence needle thousand lawyers and how much it always get in the way the Department of Defense is by far the large data agency of our government. It is one the largest ministries of defence in the world and

there's, something like three million people in the Department of Defense and so The eleven thousand lawyers consists mostly of Jack's lawyers and uniform rate, and that number eleven thousand includes garden reserve. So it is Lee true that I probably ran the largest law department in the whole United States for four years when I was General council. So why do you want job. Interesting question one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight turn back the clock to Bill Clinton's administration. I was offered really out of the blue, the job of air force, general counsel. That was a president, commitments and confirmed, and I served for the last two years of the Clinton administration, Six years later, I met Brok, Obama, candidate Brok, Obama came involved in his campaign, has transition, and then he asked me if I would be General Council of the Department of Defense and it was a really critical time. In two thousand nine two thousand ten eleven twelve to be

The senior legal official for the Department of Defense, we had lots of very important, complex issues like targeted lethal force. Our counterterrorism operate, since, in places like the eminent Somalia, getting Bin Laden use of drones, law of war detention at Guantanamo Bay and the repeal of don't ask don't tell in two thousand ten. forming the military commission system at Guantanamo Base was a fascinating, interesting and important, I am to be there and I'm glad. I will not allow to challenges. What was I wanna get tee? I wanna get to some of those because they are complicated difficult. What was the most fraught difficult of those issues for you during your time. Guantanamo Bay, the closure of it, which just We haven't the legal issue whose associated with love word attention.

while and prosecution of detainees at Guantanamo Bay. The issues were in many respects novel, but also, in many respects very traditional throughout we sought to apply- and I I encouraged our legal community to do this- sought to apply traditional love war, Prince was to what we were doing in our counterterrorism operations in a modern day time frame against a non conventional enemy. For example, It was the issue of the detention of a member terrorist organization, who also happens to be a: U S, citizen, which was litigated in the courts when it came to detention. but also when it came to targeted lethal force.

And so I advocated that we apply traditional principles and if you go back to the case of Clearin nineteen, forty two Supreme Court decision during World WAR, two Supreme Court said that a U S, citizen can defect to the enemy and, if so, should be true like all other enemy combatants. That's just it a small sense of some of the issues that went into the thinking about LAW or detention, Guantanamo Bay and then and so forth, kicks ask about the closure of having a lot of people for good reason? Think good Guantanamo Bay should be closer. Some people think otherwise, and never have reasons to that. Are not illegitimate Do you think it was a mistake for the President right off the bat to say he intended those Guantanamo Bay within a year because it was impractical. Will if you it's interesting, if you ask most people do you believe we should close on time?

obey which represents a black mark on american prestige. They would say: So that's a loaded. Well, guy right here is the other loaded question, as I believe that we should close this detention facility offshore and bring all these terrorists the cardinal? U S, you're gonna get a very different answer, and public support for closing Guantanamo Bay was probably at its peak. The moment Brok Obama took office right and we actually had made can that are progress in meeting his deadline to close the facility in a year we had found an alternate, facility in Illinois. Right. I remember that we had found a congressional delegation that didn't it wasn't vehemently opposed to it, Let me end by sundered Durban in Illinois. Yes, and so we had done the hard work, but then events kind of smiled against us. There was the the tempted bombing over the Detroit Airport and the under so called high Lama and the so called underwear bomber

there was the announcement that we, going to try the United defendants here in Manhattan, which I supported, As I said, I politically. Of course you did politically support for closer want Animo began to Iraq. do you think there's any legitimate reason for the army that Guantanamo Big be kept open for people who anaemic, abandoned others announcing the asking? If you agree with it, I don't agree with it either credit, any the arguments and you think they're there made in good faith. Well, I very much agree with and support the principle of love or detention law of war, detention, in other words, holding onto an enemy combatant for the duration of the conflict in oh, you wait armies, capture and kill enemies, so you capture somebody got up some place to send them right. The challenge,

when you dealing with an unconventional enemy, a terrorist organisation is windows. The conflict in when does that love or detention, afar, evaporate and also who is an enemy combat and who is an enemy combatant? That too can be a challenge. So much of my time when I was General Council Department defence in. doing the legal review for targeted lethal force, some of our counter terrorism operations. was centred around the question is the is the objective, a member of a terrorist organisation that we have legal authority to go after an in question arises when dealing with the detention context. So, in the habeas cases brought by Guantanamo detainees, the courts would have to grapple with the very same question and I think the danger there is after a terrorist strike, by a lone Wolf

by someone who suffer radicalized. You hear these political calls. These your cause with this person should be treated as an enemy combatants, and Guantanamo problem is that person may not be an actual member of a terrorist organs nation that we have domestic legal authority to use military means, as a lone Wolf sworn allegiance to Al Qaeda, for example, and believe in jihad. That is, you, ve just hit on the essence of how, the terrorist threat to our nation, has evolved over the last eight ten years so in the future some of the Obama administration and in the second term, of the Bush administration, we were grappling with a terrorist threat that encompass. individuals who were part of Al Qaeda L Chaba, other organizations who had to with these organizations been equipped by organizations who had existed in the G8

that location with these organizations and had accepted orders much like a conventional army by a leader of this organisation, classic we're being the nine eleven dependence as easy to identify them as soldiers in that effort correct right. So when dealing with a sulphur Eliza Actor, someone who is inspired by something they see on the internet, who may I've ever met a single other individual in the Arrest organization that they ascribed to, I think that model collapses. I think the self radicalized actor civil law enforcement has to be. These has to be the answer. and then going to the question raised about the when nature of certain kinds of conflict like were now, we ve been at war, Al Qaeda into another Organizations coming on seventeen years now. the war is going to last forever? Is it

We too have indefinite detention for people who you're not trying in any fashion. I gave a whole speech on this exact top don't do that here. What do isn't a headline November, two thousand I gave a speech at the Oxford Union, when will the war against Al Qaeda end to try to answer this question and basically, what I was saying in that speech was that at some point, when IDA is decimated and no longer able to launch a strategic attack against the. U S We have to say to ourselves legally and politically, that armed conflict and was authorized in two thousand one- is now over. There may be other key. What's going on, but that one's over and the courts inevitably in these habeas cases are gonna have to grapple with weather The conflict against Al Qaeda and Associated forces has ended the. U S, government, I know

The current administration takes a position that it has not ended and that something that the courts will result. the white wire any group of politicians so long? what kind of has some breath going to say The conflict is over and as a key, the quince give up some. hours that they have under women aren't. I can still exist, but not be engaged in armed conflict is a political matter as a political difficulties are gonna, be because of the political matter. It's easy for people to say the conflict is continuing. The lawyers continuing and so everything's fine in the court should go along with this idea, so, while years out the courts, be a little more sceptical of this there's been, I think, some trend lines here in the second Bush term. The court's gonna pushed back on in the first and second Bush terms. The court's gonna pushed back some of the things the Bush administration did in their defence. I think that a lot of what they did was novel.

And they had to come and make it up ass. He went along by the time We got into office in two thousand and nine in the Obama administration. A lot of the legal groundwork had been set. A lot of the legal limits had been set in this new kind of conflict and we sought to live within those legal limits, and I think the courts saw that and gave us a fair amount of difference. Since I went a lot of these habeas cases brought by Guantanamo detainees, you saw the courts basically denying the applications siding with the garden I think now we can anticipate a wave of increasing levels of court scepticism almost seventeen years after nine, even for an envoy listeners. Do you mind telling us what you mean when you refer to a hideous british babies petition. Yes, so a detained Guantanamo Bay has a right as the Supreme Court. to challenge his detention to challenge whether or not,

should be illegally detained the vehicle for doing that is a habeas Corpus petition, which is a very traditional type of litigation that people have a right to bring against the United States government so shortly. That is habeas petition, we'll talk about one worthing relating to the military and who gets deserve under what conditions- and you mentioned the repeal of donor don't tell him there is now a lot of controversy and discussion about the the possibility of service by people who are transgender about your prior experience in form. What you think about the current controversy and issue in two thousand and ten, when we assessing whether we could repeal don't ask don't tell and permit to serve openly. In the: U S: military. There was actually a race among all free branch, the government to get the sample

Congress. The Democrats in Congress will they had the boats in two thousand ten, before the mid terms were anxious to repeal the law Bob Gates, my boss, the Secretary defence, when I was General Council saying no, to do this carefully deliberately. Let the study group led by Johns in General Carter, him Do their assessment and we'll see what they conclude about they're, not the military can do this in the courts were getting involved, the court's after years of deference to the military, seventeen years of deference from ninety ninety three to two thousand ten were now jumping in. taking the position that don't ask don't tell was unconstitutional, and so in the midst of our review, we actually were enjoined by a judge in San Francisco forcing don't ask don't tell there wasn't a legal evolution right, there's evolution in people's solid thinking, tolerance, omission in social attitudes towards this and frankly,

the military had been allowed to exist. in a static mindset of mighty ninety three percent, ten years and I actually believe that the repeal of dough don't tell indecision two thousand ten kind of started a tidal wave of events to advance the civil rights and civil liberties of gays and lesbians in this country, because very soon, after that, you saw marriage being authorized and enacted in states. You saw cases strike down Doma, for example, my law, partner, Robbie CAP and the defence of marriage added Edith. Windsor the defence in the challenge to the defence of marriage? Actually, you saw a fairly rapid fire chain of events after the repeal of dough. Please don't tell so social attitudes during that period of time were definitely changing.

Would have thought that you're saying that that is the very traditional conservative institution of the military was alive. Force for Social Change in America. Yes, and no. Yes, I know in our study that we, to assess whether or not the Miller I could handle repeal of donors, don't tell we did a lot of comparisons to racial integration in the nineteen. Forty and fifty is in the forties and fifty's. The military actually was ahead of civilian society in in in what was interesting is the chaplain force was encouraging this and the chaplain in the military were leading the effort to do this. they were really out front and some of the same arguments against the repeal of don't ask don't tell existed against racial integration and almost the exact same words by two thousand and ten The military was kind of behind the curve, in terms of where civilian society- was going, but I think that politically, when a lot of people

saw that the military could handle this change, you saw things happening in the courts, and judges are human beings to just in an society like her the, and you saw a lot of a lot of new state laws being enacted. You're an african american lawyer at the department. did you think of about any of this through the lens of prior discrimination and actual by ass. I did actually going into our assessment of whether Don don't talk to be repealed, I tended to look at it a civil rights issue which, frankly, didn't resident all that well in the military community. What did resonate was what the chairman of the joint chief said Admiral MIKE Mullen, which is that this is an issue of integrity and a gay person has to essentially lie about their identity to serve his country, whereas a straight person does not So it's a matter of integrity, the gates,

as members and ours to permit them to serve openly like everybody else, so that they can talk a brighter family. They can talk about their spouse, talk about their lie lesson I decided to add distinction to make between the integrity of the person being able to be true to his or her identity. Verses rights issue to me: their sort of merged over when you put it as a matter of integrity and basic fairness, and that resonates much more in the military community. We found and that's how my co chair Carter him, who was an army forced our wood, been in the army, his whole life saw it and it is, I think, more people identified with it in that way. so you mentioned a man by name of Barack Obama tells briefly why you supported him and what you thought of him I thought he would be a good president, so I met Brok Obama in

in two thousand and six at a fundraiser in New Jersey, and we immediately struck up a friendship and frankly, he did a pretty effective recruitment job on me and I was planning on setting out the democratic primaries. I'm a Democrat, but something about Senate Obama inspired me and on twenty second, two thousand six remember the day and I still have the pink message slip. He called me off Nepal ICE and said he thinking about running when I support him when I said immediately, if you run, I was would you put your message from Hillary Clinton to know he got to me first and Something about the moment told me this is Can it be history in your being invited to participate in history from the ground floor We pause for a moment talk about one of your biography? Is your grandfather, Charles Johnson, tells about your grandfather, My grandfather was a sociologist. He was

president of Fisk University, which is a black college in Nashville Tennessee,. and he wrote a lot about civil rights and when you were a black man in the forties and fifty's You were an educator knew what a lot about civil rights during the Mccarthy error you inevitably came under vision, so my own grandfather, actually in nineteen forty nine testified before the house on American Activities Committee to deny he was a member of the Communist Party and then went on to give a prepared statement in defence of the patriotism of the american Negro ass. He put it then, and he was a forward thinking person in nineteen thirty. He went to Liberia to investigate allegations of an government supported underground slave market, which is how I got my name and smell J e age. Another way to spell J? Why which a lot of people process seems it its Jehu leavings, whose

getting enormous pronounced yours and mine. I think that's a good question, but I'll come back. So he met somebody in Liberia with them M J, p h, a member of the indigenous population, Neue ridden admired and respected. so. The next year, nineteen thirty one, my grandpa gave the name to my father time when African organs were not celebrating their afghan heritage. Now, wheat. Now we do so my grandfather, gave an aim to my father, who gave the name to me, and I to my son. So, as far as I know, there are three J Johnson's in the world. What's interesting, if you, put the name J a wide Johnson into Google. It ll ask you: do you really mean J Johnson R, J, P, H Johnson, with this Wikipedia entry her? So the name is becoming more convention algorithm kind of works right. How far back an ancestor of yours was born into slavery, my great grandfather Charles S Johnson's father,

Foreign Charles H Johnson was born a slave in eighteen, sixty in Lynchburg Virginia. He was emancipated when he was three years old and travel to Russia, Virginia after getting a college degree at Virginia Union founded Virgin eighteen, ninety, which is still there and password that church for forty two years, so he was an emancipated slave so a scenario? I traced my family history so now two thousand sex you receive a call from a african american Senator, who has also African first name off us who had an arrogant first name. Awesome has pronounced frequently not anymore, who has designs on the presence of a United States of America. Would you think at that moment about something told me? Maybe it was My experience as an african American maybe was my training and experts, and said Moorhouse College were Doktor king when thirty years before me

something told me this is gonna, be history in your being invited again and on the ground floor get on board, and it was a terrific experience. I canvassed in places like the moon, Iron was Philadelphia, I was a member of his NASH security advisor. The team was Adele. to the convention. I was a lawyer for the campaign and then, when he was elected, I was this transition team and then part of his administration so as we discuss. You did your job as General Council of the problem of defence came back to me. often per Weiss, expecting I was done in the last few. In eleven thousand lawyers, a few hundred end, then, eight months later he asked me if I would return his administration As secretary of Homeland Security, how hard job is that it's a very hard job for a number of reasons.

the Secretary of Homeland Security is on defence you're, always on defence you're, on the defensive team, you're blocking and tackling In a variety of context, border security, aviation security, maritime security, cybersecurity port, secure, the physical security of our nations leaders response to now real disasters through FEMA. It's, the third largest department of our government by far the most decentralized, with twenty two different components that Raul stitch together in two thousand, two, after nine eleven and Finally, the age s home Security, is still a work in progress. the two heart is it is it to unwieldy? I mean, as you just mentioned, it was. did together. Twenty two different agencies put them under one roof says Most of those functions existed already right in various different parts of the government, so it was the it out again

putting together the gain of putting up together was you have now one cabinet level official whose looking at all the different threats, dreams directed against the home? I am an- can allocate resources accordingly, which I think is a good thing where believe he addresses a work in progress is theirs. Little middle level, management and so the secretary Homeland security is a lot of direct reports and because it's a job on defence, where Ten thousand successes equals one failure that makes the jobs are difficult. major components among the components of the secret service, yes, which would at what else secret service, FEMA Immigration, customs enforcement, citizenship and immigration, services, customs and border protection, which, by the way, is itself the law.

Federal law enforcement agency of argument and maybe getting larger t essay, which we all know about love tee. I say again: Oh man, security investigations, which I'm sorry for me what he wants a lot with ice, to go on and on so it alive. the agency's alot of responsibilities. I want to ask if I might about some issues that are frightened centre in the country. Now, through the lens of your experience at home, answer a lot of those issues by she by lavishes you wouldn't like, including at the department events, can to be in the headlines and are important so mention borders and border agents. The administration, as we speak as well pending a lot of time. Talking about the border, hound in his border security is not essential. As the president, says that we need to be more. She had at border security, we don't have open borders we're a sovereign nation. We don't have open borders. Now, in my judgment, there are effective, efficient ways to go about border security, particularly

You have a two thousand mile long border across southern border, that is all sorts of different terrains and so much time to have. First point: illegal migration is a free of what it used to be. The high was seventeen eighteen years ago when we had one point: six million people apprehended on our southern border today and for the last several years, it's a fraction of that last. dear was about three and three thousand last fiscal year. My Second you're in office was three and thirty. One thousand but surely the aspiring to zero you can, you can have zero. You can aspire to zero, which can have zero at just a fact dislike. You can have it crime rate of zero and a major city rice, but you cannot eat that simply.

Gonna be fatalistic, but anyway it's a fraction of what it used to be because of several reasons. One the economy and Mexico's lot better than it used to be bad economy is a push factor in illegal, Michael, to the investments we made in the Bush, Clinton and Obama years in border security? And what do I mean by border security? We have built a fence in all the places where it makes sense to have a fence. The southern border consist of mountains, the Rio Grande, which is a very windy river in Texas, and so we built a fence in the places where it sense to have it wrong about a bill. Defend the Bush Clinton an abundant ministrations built defence. But you have to ask yourself how much sense does it make to build a ten foot war on top of it thousand foot mountain. If somebody's motivated enough to climb eighteen, ten thousand foot mountain they're going to figure out a way to get over the ten football experts like you discharge when a sort of bread in Asia that surveillance vehicles, mobiles

balance. If you ask a border security experts, those are the things they tell you that they need more of lights, roads, vehicles, to go where the surges any legal migration occur on our southern border. We made it. investments in that the numbers are going down, there's always the Duke, but just simply bill A war for the sake of building a wall is not a wise investment and taxpayers. Money is not efficient and effective. No, it's it's a gift, bumper sticker? It's good rallying cry, but it's not the wisest most effective way to invest taxpayers money in borders. ready. Could you tell people why we concerned about the idea of sending our military too guard the border in a mere peacetime. Well, send the military to the border sounds great, but let's stepped back for a minute and think about this. For

maybe five seconds there is a law against a phrase. You will know a posse, come a Titus yet The? U S military! This is what makes was military, I think, would swell the reasons why there are military? Is one more revered institutions in America, because we keep it cabin the? U S. Military is not allowed to serve in civil law enforcement roles, unlike other nations, where you see military on the streets and that has been true since one thousand eight hundred and seventy eight, since after the civil war and it's part of our culture and our heritage, and so. when you talk about sending guard to the borders, most, they can do is support, they can serve indirect border security roles, and I had this image of military uniform standing at the Rio Grande with bayonets and rifles? They can't do that and you don't want Untrained guard personnel engage

in the apprehension of women and children, so the most it can do is support the bottle. in the whole system is the are the immigration courts if you really wanted to expedite the removal of people to serve as a deterrent to The migration we'd be hiring way more immigration, judges, the backlog as president trumpet has pointed out. The backlog in immigration court is huge and their far too few immigration Judgest annul those cases. So inevitably, a lot of people come to the southern border date. Frankly, assume are not surprised when they are apprehended and then they go into a immigration court system estimate takes years to litigate mitigate the travel ban. Statements by the President, our present made about, letting in people who were muslim,

modified. That bit by bit over overtime, a policy is that, two years ago, two years ago, it would have been unheard of for the courts to be regulating and second guessing who the president and the sector of homeland security say should be allowed in this country. Traditionally, the judicial branch a lot of deference to the executive branch when it comes to regulating our borders, but bad facts may bad law. So when you have a candidate for president who, in December twenty fifteen calls for a complete ban on certain kind of immigration based on some one's religion. You see the court's reacting to that. Interferes with their election through go on and on which side there are so many things tat try to make it real all. This should We have done more before at this

and took office. Everybody asked me that question I know so, with the benefit of hindsight in hindsight is brilliant. With the benefit of hindsight, you ask the question: why should we have done more to turn the russian government? Well, if you believe our intelligence chiefs, the answer yes, because if you believe our intelligence leaders there saying that the Russians are still at it in terms of their attempts to influence our mark or sea, and were now in the midst of the twenty eight election, and you believed them will have to play, well that's the intelligence is. Have you say you have to believe I no longer have access to the intelligence myself so presently rising boat. Last its The question that I think one would have to ask in the past, but this president denigrate tell them community on a regular basis and he doesn't take the view that you have to believe them and he still is our intelligence community, when you're in a national security job, whether its sectoral

and security sector, defence or even president knotted states are in just community and their analysis are your eyes and ears. If you don't believe them, if you don't pay attention to it, you're flying blind, and so, if you believe, our intelligence experts are telling us. The Russians have not been deterred now getting back to your question. Somebody asked me: should we have done more? I really have to take us back to the circumstances that existed in twenty sixteen and was what we were wrestling with at the time and At the time we had clear intelligence by late summer, early fall that the Russians were attempting to interfere in the twenty sixteen election and the question becomes what we do about it we were in the midst of a very heated campaign where one candidates. Candidate tromp was saying that the outcome was going to be rigged. The president and the national security components of our government were very concerned about jumpy.

into this and being perceived as somehow trying to tilt the alert Two Hillary Clinton, plus there was a school of fraud around the table in the situation room that even by making attribution and taking action were playing. And to the russian government hands by undermining the credibility of the democratic process, and so we came out with the conclusion that we had to tell the american public. We had to make a contribution, was in a statement that the director of national intelligence and I issued on October seven twenty sixteen They also ignores when I guess that's correct. The statement did not the attention that I thought we'd get because It was the same day as the release of these, so called access. Hollywood, video and so the public's attention was drawn to another corner of the pasture, all the press. All the cattle went off to cover sex and greed and lust and speculation.

The next several days was trump can't survive there he's getting out what's gonna happen. On Sunday, there is actually very little follow up about the statement, Jim Crow, for an I made until December after the election when the pressure of woke up and said hey, while the Russians interfered with our election as well. Yes, we told you that, two months before then so, very often in public life and I suspect you know this to breed People will say you were. Why didn't you warn us about this it? Why did you talk more about this? Need say why I have talked about it. You just the present covered it and sometimes in Washington. Particular, you have to say something. Seventeen eighteen times, for nobody will listen, there's something crazy or say it in very colorful terms. How important presidential leadership in protecting tree and the reason I ask as Europe you're talking about the election, and it makes think about the future gonna happen the next election and how we're not prepared, in one thing that from all this discussion, even though you have

sometimes cabinet level, officials and in other people and government warning about it. You know in hiding people tones from time to time on on the hill and elsewhere. But your the president talking about it and I specula because he doesn't want to vote the attention on future An interference in the election because it puts us by in the past election and it in his mind, undermines the Univee thee. Credibility of his election. I think that's exactly right, it does it mattered, and no, if, if you have responsible people like J Johnson and others, if you there there in the current government. Does it matter

The president is not asserting leadership or not I'll. Give you an analogy that I know you will appreciate the government, national security components of our government or a lot like a? U S, attorney's office. If there's no Senate confirmed U S attorney in the chair at one scene, Andrews Plaza, you and I both know the work of that you was turning office- will go an indictment, be brought, cases will be tried, convictions will be obtained. Grandeur investigations will continue, but without the strategic leadership to set priorities to mobilise people to motivate people to focus, raw policy direction in a certain way, and inevitably the president is by far the most visible

person in the? U S, government and in the country, everything the president says every word the president says every tweet. The president issues is covered. Intensely, and so the president has the ability to set the agenda and focus people's thinking in a certain way and mobilise public opinion, and so The Treasury department can issue sanctions the outgoing national security adviser can make very forceful speeches about the russian threat, but inevitably it it comes back to the president, the commander, in chief to set the tone, make the visible statements that the russian gas well here and take heed of. Does it make you upset or angry on a personal level given how closely

with the intelligence agencies when the president denigrate them? Well, I find it. I have a difficult time Getting my head around a president, any president who D integrates institutions of his own government to them. and people, whether it's the intelligence, community, the FBI, the Department of Justice. I just have our time under Standing why that is a good idea. I came You understand when I was set Dr Homeland security that the intelligence community is Europe There are new your eyes and ears. The first thing I do every morning when I came to work it six thirty and walk in and had been intelligence book, which includes the pity, be sick, my desk waiting for me, my presidential jelly brief. The military aid puts it at six a m a nearby. sturdy. It sitting there waiting for me

secure office and before even read the newspapers and read the intelligence reports to know what today's threats dreams are to the homeland and ass it then also have that branch and numbers on the southern border from the night before. If I had time after going through it in discussing it with my staff at read the newspapers, that's how important the intelligence is. An said unless you consume it now is the most important part of my day right and unless you consume it, flying blind have you think John Kelly's doing as chief of staff well I know John Kelly from when he was the military aid to the sector, a defence- and I was the General Council and

we have remained friends when I was sector of homeland security was commander of? U S southern command, I applauded when he became secretary of Homeland Security. I told our workforce, you old, greet him, as a person of honour and integrity is elaborate her and I predicted that night think that's what happened. The job of chief of staff, even in normal circumstances, is the most difficult job in the. U S, government number one number one the most difficult job in the: U S government giving, He handled the security clearance issue in the White House appropriately from what you know publicly no comment looking, but you go to the last question. So there's a popular television show that I have not walked, but I'm told it's a popular designated survivor this could you? Could you explain the folks at all? It's crackdown world, explain about what that is not nearly as glamorous this made to be a well. It depends on what you know dependent if things go wrong and how

you had experienced in being the designated survivor, Tata Cabinet two types times tells quickly about the state of the union: twenties, Niggers, Lammers, the sea the union, twenty sixteen and then migration day, twenty seventeen. So when everyone. In the line of succession, the presidential line session in one place. Somebody has who absent themselves in case of catastrophe, I really enjoyed going to the state of the union addresses in on your on the house. Floor first, my walked on it, floor for state of the union. I couldn't believe I was there. We Dammam on C span every branch agreement? There is theirs, courts there, the chief are there everyone congresses their exciting everywhere, Blue Tiger red tie on two thousand and sixteen I got the short straw Johnson you're, the designated survivor, so you have to go. I had to go off to my Those location metal is is in Washington. Is it in some other states and undisclosed location, the night think about it as you get to bring the White House chef with you

could you a meal person, cooks, a meal and then, when the present the residents. You get the gun due to watch, that the speech on tellers sit there and a big flat screen tv and watch it. So I figured ok, I've done it once this. Is it, but I got the duty a second time and that was sworn in day on inauguration dates, fundamentally different, because everyone in the cabinet is resigning and Why had literally hold over into the Trump administration as a designated survivor? This time the location was not a big secret. At my house in my jersey. Just I just came day or have to be have to be secret. Then don't ask me, and so I was the designated survivor again, except I hear over for seven and a half hours into the Trump administration when Kelly. My successor was confirmed

so you, secretary of Homeland Security under downturn, I'm Donald trumps first said it confirmed. Cabinet officer and therefore german officer in his administration to resign. Now. What's interesting is now presidency with the name Johnson begins well and obviously no one consider the fact that if I had become president, it would have been there my own failure to secure the ocean. However, how ironic, how ironic secretary Johnson Thank you so much red. It's been a pleasure working with you really appreciated. Thank sir, so you show. I frequently talk about something that is moved me and inspired me in the news and frequently it's about some young person or group of young people Who were going against the grain? Do something difficult to make the world better. or to make the world a hateful or to bring about some positive change. In their community or in their state.

and so one thing over excited about. Then, I'm organizing through cafe, is an event on April. Twenty six Call the cafe change summit, oriented around this very simple principle. This idea of taking action of inspiring thoughtful action. The things I hope to do is to highlight people identified a hundred, who, I think has the most exciting change makers in the country. Facing people who hope to introduce to you over the podcast. In days and weeks following the event, the meeting sample of some of these people. There's Jessica, Matthews, the FAO, of uncharted power who, in that something called the socket which energy, generating soccer ball at age nineteen and is now building a creative ways to use kinetic energy as renewable power source or but Emma Yang, who'd, H. Thirteen developed around app called timeless to help patients with Alzheimer's stay engaged with their families it is also our hydro, Ghak or tedious, a teacher

entrepreneur who is committee the closing the literacy Gath recollected that works with teachers, family members and kids. The goal is to play. Our focus on the people who are doing more than just talking will also some people who we are familiar with from the past but how they may change or stood up to protectionism. People are Gary Kasparov and build prouder people who fought for civil rights, like Benita Gupta. So I'm really excited to be talking this p learning from these people introducing them to you over the coming weeks. Here, on the palm cast an online, and I also hope for you listening. That you're helping to my attention. People in Europe Eddie or in your state, in the country who do thing to make the world better, there's so much negative out there there's so much hate the summer's just and about how we are going down. The drain. I like to associate myself like with the democracy task force, with Christie TAT women and now the summit with people who are trying to do something positive are not just lamenting bad things happening in the country,

and there's no doubt through bad things happening the country. But I choose My time with people who are hopeful and want to make a change in the difference, because that's it going to come out of this matter. Well that's it for this episode of stay tuned thanks. my guest former day, just Secretary J Johnson, if you like the show rate and review an apple pie, outcasts Positive review helps new listeners. Fine show send me your call genes about news in politics. and we're gonna be doing a show coming up, focusing on big picture questions, not the news of the weak, but stepping back to look at how things work or should work, with investigations in the loft. Send us your questions, hush, asked priests I'll be giving way tickets to lucky listeners for alive, show April twenty six in New York City of Historic, APOLLO Theatre to people who treat me questions remember to use the hashtag asked pre or give me a call it six

nine hundred and twenty four seventy seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that six thousand six hundred and ninety two for pre or send an email to stay tuned to cafe dot com stay tuned. presented by CAFE and W and Y see studios its produced by the team. Apple Street media cat, Aaron, crisper, Ruby, Henry Malarkey, generalised, Berman, Joe a level and MAX Linsky. Our music is by Andrew Dust and special thanks to Julia Doyle, refinement and Jake Mcafee. I'm prepare our stay tuned workers everywhere are prioritizing independence, flexibility and fulfilment above the routine of jobs like generations passed, but here's some about that change. That might surprise you. Bananas are starting to value independence to because the agile forward thinking. Businesses have recognised that the future of work is dispersed, dynamic, driven by a diverse group of workers, Howard

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