This week's Q&A (with Lisa Monaco) starts at 2:07, the interview starts at 17:35, and the button starts at 1:18:45.
On this episode of Stay Tuned, "Russian Asset & The 1st Female Firefighter," Lisa Monaco, who served as Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism in the Obama Administration, joins host Preet Bharara to help answer some of your questions on:
-- Reports of an extracted Russian Spy who allegedly provided critical information about the Kremlin’s interference in the 2016 American election
-- The sudden departure of John Bolton as President Trump’s national security adviser
-- President Trump’s cancelled negotiations with the Taliban at Camp David
On this 18th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, retired Captain Brenda Berkman of the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) joins Preet for a conversation about her journey as the City’s pioneering female firefighter and her historic 1982 class action lawsuit that forced the FDNY to accept women into its ranks.
* Corrections from Capt. Berkman: the U.S. Forest Service (along with FEMA and the US Fire Academy) came to Ground Zero to help FDNY with the large incident command challenges (not the “US Fire Service”); and 37 Port Authority Police died on 9/11, as well as many additional non-police Port Authority employees.
Bonus clips from the interview are available for members of the CAFE Insider community.
Read along to this week's episode with the transcript.
Sign up to receive free references and supplemental materials for Stay Tuned episodes, a weekly newsletter, and updates from Preet.
As always, tweet your questions to @PreetBharara with hashtag #askpreet, email us at [email protected], or call 699-247-7338 to leave a voicemail.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I am preparing, so I'm a student of history
and I realize that people had done really hard things to give me. The
opportunities that I had as white woman growing up in the nineteen fifty is, even though they were limited and continue to be limited for women. Ok,
but I realized that people had suffered a lot for other groups as well,
I'm not going to be something that just change
two overnight, that's Brenda Bergman,
in the fire department of the city of New York for twenty five years as a twenty nine year old
She was the only named plaintive in historic class action, lawsuit that forced this
to allow women into the FDA and why, for the first time, render Bergmann tells me a story of justice and personal perseverance
how she went from being student at the N Y, you spools law to becoming one of the first forty women, firefighters in the cities, history he also toxic.
How, after the first plane, hit the World Trade Centre on the morning of September eleven she rushed to the
yours, firehouse and joined the ranks of Europe's heroic first responders, but first, let's get your questions. That's coming up, say too. There are a lot
Daily newspaper casts out there, but none of them are anything like today explained from vocs every day
Sean, Robys, warm and team pick an essential new story that defines our moment. What makes the show stand out is how they tell that story listening to do
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was thin, but you'll walk away with a real understanding of, what's going on tomorrow, boxes as recline joint shant debrief on the third democratic debate,
this is an episode you won't want to miss so subscribe to today explained for free right now to get this episode autumn.
click and understand the news. Every damn day I create Jody in Denver
just read the article at other times about the informant longtime informant extract without Russia, somewhere safe here in Europe.
I seen as anybody else concerned, or is it just me that chump would actually give the location of this informed that helped us all these years? What do you think? I love your show things by
Jody in Denver. For that great question, which is a lot of people's minds and by the way since you're in Denver, you should think about coming to light show. Then I tell her twenty fourth with Shan and what we ve done.
two questions and some of the craziest thing with respect to national security. Over the last
Today's, instead of answering the questions myself, I'm gonna do one better,
invited into the studio. My dear friend and stay tuned, Regular LISA, Monica
who serve any Obama White House, as you may recall, as assistant to the present for homeland security in counter terrorism, so
LISA Least, some of these difficult questions that people of an ass
and I ve been asking myself. Lisa effects are being where lifeline great to be here at last.
in it. We called you and said, come on in an educator on some of these things and help us understand how bonkers they are, or maybe they're, not so, with respect to Joey's question all this reporting about the ex filtration, which is the term of
american asset in Russia because of concerns about that asset safety, because in part of a worry that the president might not keep that thing a secret. What do you make of all that? Well, first, I should say I'm just reading the same public reports that you are in the Jody is she's right to be concerned, because if there is or was such an asset, meaning somebody who was working on behalf of the United States government too
our secrets and to help the United States. National security would be a really really important thing for the: U S: government, to have for our national security and the reports that were reading today and yesterday,
frankly, really concerning to meet that were even reading about cause. Look. The press is doing
job, and they should be doing that. But at some point in time somebody who was it seems trusted with: U S, national security secrets decided to disclose those and that's a problem, but the concerns expressed by Jody and others that I've read our spot on costs,
person if they exist and if this reporting is believed to be true and again, I'm not confirming or denying any of it. But you find a credible while two things are true: pre one is this year
put out a statement denying it, but the reports that I've read our sourcing to multiple current, a fish
rules mean and currently serving Trump administration officials directly involved? I think, is the words were used in these discussions and planning for this supposed extraction. So U way, those two things and its report that ought to be looked at very carefully is something that is worthy of congressional investigation. I think so, but a few different levels right a if this is true. This means that somebody who was in a position of trust disclosed information that was classified and if the other parts of the reporting are true that some of this,
and for this extraction was concerned by the intelligence community that this person's safety was a risk. I certainly think- and I suspect, the intelligence committees who, of course in Congress, operate with classified information and do a lot of their work. I think, appropriately in secret behind closed doors, you can bet they're looking into it hypothetically if there were certain extraction with that, in your view, rise to the level of the intelligence agencies having to give notification to the chair
cows and vice chairs of intelligence committees of Congress when it happened. I would think so, as you know, cause you worked on the hill. The standard here is any significant intelligence activity and a move like this, I think, would probably qualify. Do you think that notification would have included
true that one of the bases for the extraction was a concern that the present of United States himself posed a threat of disclosure. If that was the case, I'm guessing that the intelligent committee would have potentially financed
I think there might be other ways that the intelligence committee gets than information. I'd be skeptical that it would appear
or in the formal notification right. I was wondering also who would be responsible for getting this information out now which were concerned about. Is it possible that its Congress? That's really,
point again. The sourcing that I have seen says individuals directly involved in the extraction, so anybody's gas, but that tells me that those folks who have very good information about this supposed extraction
but we think about the related reporting which, as the Donald Trump really doesn't like the idea of spying on our adversaries, people have been quoted as saying the present. Please. We shouldn't be doing that to each other, that the president believes those p
are selling out their country and so he's not into human intelligence on a scale of one to ten. How bonkers is that it's beyond bankers, and it's beyond bonkers, because
These are individuals who are putting their lives on the line to help the United States are granted
they're gonna have all sorts of motivation. Maybe they don't believe
the policies of their own country? Maybe they have financial motivation. Maybe they want safety and safe passage and of different life for their family. They can have all sorts of motivations, but the point
They are now working for the United States
in our national security interests that good for us, the intelligence community spend an incredible amount of resources and time developing these assets. So this report about this alleged russian asset, who was extracted people, should understand that person was likely decades in the make in terms of developing that source of information that incredibly important.
To the United States national security. The other thing pre about this is this just seems to me in line with the president's hostility to the intelligence community right or you know, we are giving about a totally different context. We both share time and experiences prosecutors to,
he also requiring witnessed exactly what did they say to all of a piece it in their it's in the same vein, and you have to gonna ask yourself
Why one it? I think it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of with the rule of law in the case of the intelligence Committee, with the role of an asset is it in the United States interest and in the press
pollution scenario, what the role of cooperating witnesses to help make cases to bring criminals to justice. So with regard to the end,
just committee. This is all in a long line of hostility to the intelligence community right. The president's stood up next to Vladimir Putin questioned on foreign soil questioned him
intelligence, community and favoured pollutants analysis. He has
called the intelligence community, all manner of names. He says there, the deep state when these or career professionals working to protect the United States of America, so it is bonkers. It's me
bonkers, but I guess I was not surprised ever wanted him. No, I used the same scale, a views previously, it's like the old phrase it goes to eleven. This is vital to this is vital to have examined so. Another thing happened this week: National Security adviser John, but
the bidding and he believed fired resigned.
so not everyone loved him alone. People on the demo,
I didn't like him is a good thing that he's gone
abandoned his kind is Trump deserve credit for getting rid of this guy. So when I think this is the
surprising news this week. Quite frankly, I mean that the right
had been on the wall for a while. This is a national security adviser who was reported
kept out of major meetings forget about being kept.
that means these are meetings at the national security adviser usually calls and runs to the idea that he was invited to a major national security policy mean was affirmatively kept out of. It is again
bonkers scale beyond bonkers right. Well, past ten. So this
unsurprisingly contradicting the president and clearly
he's not in alignment with the president good about your country. The whole thing is chaotic, so that bad for the country right, I dont subscribe to the view that Bolton
might have been an adult in or might have been a moderating influence in the sense that he was not look
to double down with Kim Jong on on talks. He didn't want the Taliban to come to Camp David. I think the whole thing reveals basically the chaos theory of foreign policy. So that's not good for the country
the one thing I do agree with in this may surprise: you pre is some of the supporters of the present have said: look the press,
it deserves a national security adviser who he trusts and whose aligned with them I agree with the president is entitled to,
an adviser, particularly one who served in the White House and disposed to be his closest foreign policy. Visor, isn't it
to somebody who he trusts in is aligned with what I think with this reflects. Is there is no national security policy process ongoing right that has been completely turned upside down and is non existent
and golden seems to have forgotten the number one rule of serving in the White House, which is your all staff. I said
in the White House, as you said, presents homeland skirting counterterrorism adviser. It's a little bit like what
was in the situation and stay in the situation did morose another
currently master the fact that all of these disputes have been spilling out. Certainly it's fun for folks to ff
follow the back and forth and whose up in whose down and all the internal?
affair, but it's not good for national security. But you do not
the principle that a lot of people are articulating right now, which is John Buildings,
on television and go on the upper pages without devoting classified information, but should describe the discussion in the White House and how dangerous the president of the United States is really keep his mouth shut. Or should he speak, as some people think will be a publics,
Well, he's already spoken- and I dont think when you John Bolton to tell us that there's chaos in the White House right, so I was
to the quaint notion that you want to keep your advice to the president to yourself, and you
use leaks as a foreign policy tool because it doesn't help our national security. What our adversary,
Yes, and frankly, are allies. All see is complete upheaval and not a coherent foreign power
see and not a coherent foreign policy process. That's not good for America
currently the President United States planned during the week of the anniversary, nine eleven recording this on the eighteenth anniversary, nine eleven. He plan to invite leaders of the Taliban to Camp David. The fact
that we're even having this discussion, let alone on such a solemn
over as today's is is frankly
saying the notion that you would say higher than bonkers booking loaf
the notion that you would have leaders of the Taliban who live.
really have blood on their hands, for the attack on this country is, of course, that harboured allocated. They have not renounced Al Qaeda, they have not engaged in a cease fire. It is in saying that we would bring them to Camp David, a seat of the presidency. Quite frank
much like the White House and frankly, give them that propaganda tool, can you imagine what they would do it that are so how to me? How do you mean it emboldens them? It legitimizes
It gives them frankly a photo off. As importantly, in this instance, I imagine would be devastating to the
families of those who died on nine eleven. So it is definitely beyond markers it in the same category and, I should say, pre
it's a laudable goal to try and bring this conflict eighteen years on to a resolution, and to do that,
you're gonna have to deal with unsavory characters. I get that, but there is a real difference between doing that and bringing those people to Camp David and setting foot on you. I saw LISA Margo thanks for dropping by sure, don't be a stranger.
Do this again great to be. Let me off the hook global happy to do that. Forget
my guess this week is retired hefty and why Captain Brenda Bereavement, she served New York City.
a quarter of a century and was
of the many off duty, firefighters who ran into the rubble of the World Trade Center on September eleven she returned to the
for months afterwards to assist in recovery efforts in retirement captain
movement. Volunteers still, today leading tour
at the nine Eleven Tribute Museum. We talk about her incredible journey to become
the fire fighter why she ended up return
to the same court room for nearly five years, how she fought fires and dealt with daily discrimination from male colleagues and also her
elections. On the eighteenth anniversary of the deadliest terrorist attack on american soil, that's coming up statehood,
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The greater the smartest way to hire captain Brenda Bergmann, thank you for being on the show. You can call me brand of pre cause, I'm gonna call you pre Commie pre
So we're taking this. During the week of nine eleven, the eighteenth anniversary, you were first responders on that
even though you your off duty but your past, to becoming a first responder firefighter without the normal pet
two soberly secured leg, so we
I spent some time
It's a real honour to meet you and to have.
The show and tell your story is one about justice and also personal perseverance
so you began after going to college and after getting, I think, a masters degree
current until you decide to do a thing that I also did which go to law school. You went to the law school where I teach,
I know I'm anyway or loss of Asia. We were there. No, I am. I am genuinely pleased about that. I'm glad they snagged you, you do
law school in fact tell us
think about law? School really did not love law school. At that point, I was
married to a lawyer. My father in law was very accomplish lawyer. He had his own firm, so small firm, but-
so I had role models and my own family at that point of people who loved law school- maybe my husband not so much.
Went to law school with the idea that I was gonna use allowed to achieve social change. That's why I want to do with my an you did
Well, I did but knowledge or Lord as a lawyer, although that entered in vibrant, so I get to laws
and then I discover that in fact the law is a very conservative mindset
people understand that, and I certainly didn't, because I didn't have any lawyers and my family growing up. You know and I didn't know
anything about the law, really other than look. What all the great things
had been done with it during the civil rights movement have Talkin Bout, the sixties and the struggle for racial justice. At that point, and you know the judges and they had turnkeys, who were so courageous and and represented people on my my late father law actually had represented.
black youth who had been accused of raping a white woman. You know I mean there was a lot going on to us
army in the law. Then I get to law school and in your let them I was very much let down
they want to work for a social justice organization. I want to do of represent workers for employment law stuff, that's hard to get a job.
That I mean I ended up doing some immigration law and representing applicants for asylum.
Pro bono basis, we could use your help now again, where the laws changed a lot in hours. I retired from the practice of law,
but because you decided I went I just I struggled, I got to know managed it. I've met people who went
school and then later
doctors. People, their law school go into media, become Hollywood,
and also to do other. You are the first person I meeting who went to law school,
and decided to become a firefighter yeah. What was
vying with my luggage. Do you know how hard it is to be a firefighter decided? You want to go out
this can be for me. Personally generally, we get to your personal vow Manuel
somewhat. I didn't come from a family of fire fighters and I didn't
have any role
models of fire fighters growing up, because in a women were not firefighters and aid
didn't, even allow women to take the test in New York until nineteen seventy seven. I was
in law school. I knew that
fire fighting is challenging, have to know a lot of things about a lot of different things. That was part of its appeal for me. Actually,
to know a little bit about a lot of stuff and it's fun to figure out stuff.
More importantly, really to help people, which was away that I was raised, I knew was going
difficult and I knew was going to be difficult for me personally, because I had worked as a law student. I had worked on a case that involved women police officers where they were challenging the lay offs. When did you moved to New York, pre for
nineteen. Ninety, our Europe was long gone by then this is
the so called fiscal crisis right and they were all these lay and Anais were laying
Women disproportionately because women had been higher
later because it will be
discriminated against. Nobody remembers. The police department had a three percent quota
on hiring women officers and
those women got much higher scores
on the exams and the guys had, and they would have
a higher place in on early
hiring, but for that discrimination. So my
Father in law, was representing these women. What happened to them? Well, the name class plaintive godsend
the middle of freak and nowhere in danger.
area and shield
really didn't know if she got in trouble of somebody would come so their lives were threatened,
and their careers because they stood up,
but I knew the challenging the status quo in these non traditional jobs for women was not gonna, be a piece
take. Did I understand really how incredibly
if a collar was no ma foi. Here's another
in nineteen seventy eight
they were, how many women fire fighters in New York, city and nineteen. Seventy eight zero, zero yeah. You decide to be one yes, so so
Seven was the first time that they opened up the tests to women so like
I say all the time you know did manner what your physical capabilities words, a woman. You could have been olympic caliber athlete, you could not even apply
you couldn't even try condemning show up. You can shop
we cannot change the law and for the first time, titles seven was applied to states, municipalities that affected the fire test. So, yes, it had gone into effect earlier in the seventies but fired test.
not been given for many years there's a physical test. My man stood in a written to enter written to sew on the physical side. First described
my audience. What your physical condition was back then my physical condition.
Also, I was running marathons and I was
training- and I was Cross country Scare, US lifting weights, and I was doing sprint son I was you know. I was a jack and I
had been really my whole life hockey player. No because
title nine hidden. I grew up pre, title nine, so
I tried to join Little League bud
The little league coach sent my mother's five dollars back in our and I was told no girls, girls dump
a little league, the
is very limited. Organised sports opportunities certainly very limit.
Training or of competitive stuff, but you were very fit. I was
reply was wave. Ok and I
carrying my ex husband up and down the stairs and our apartment building. You know trying to practice to prepare for the test, prepare for that. What was the test at that time? All kinds, goofy stuff,
you noticed items were not really firefighting items, they were so
abstract measures of footmen such as standing broad jump up
also the walls
Doesn't really work which really
have to do is measure the fitness component,
in the manner in which the person performs go back
read the media calves from that time. It's really misleading, because even the new
taught even and especially the New York Times. God things wrong about what was being ass, what was being required, but just to give a couple of examples, so they
have to analyze the city had to analyze. What are the ability is needed in order to be trained to be a fire fighters, so they come up with a list of of physical abilities. They think people need to be trained. One of amidst stamina. How do you tell first stand?
they tested for stamina by doing a mile run
Usually a mile run is not a test. The stamina, it's a test of speed. Could you can do twenty six of them
by anaerobic, not a robot, yeah, ok, so that that summer, one, but there
They want to have a cut off pass mark, so the experts say the cut off pass marks should be, I think, was ten minutes, something like that for a mile run not really fast, but in no way
more fitness, most firefighters care on a mile faster than tat. In spite of the experts come up with tenants, they have a meeting of five
She says you know my daughter can run a mile in ten months. I think we should have at seven and a half minutes and that's how they came up with the pass mark for the mind.
Right now I was a runner and no problem running anything around five minutes must have been a short mile.
Then you know he had a jump over and eight foot wall I mean literally had jumped up pull yourself overnight for war, and they had some kind of explanation for that which had trial was shown to be totally bogus s. Not what people do we
I'll throw people upon our shoulders and run up the stairs with them. We don't do that. Robot, that's what they were testing some of you,
how'd you do on the test failed, as
every single woman,
only ninety VA showed up of the over four hundred. There were eligible to take of physical exam so by foreign women at pass written. But then it was all this press hardest Chester,
given for fire fighter. Women can't do it. They're gonna do terribly so women just in show up. I was around
If only run the test was relatively easy cake. Reluctantly I mean I'm sure people still failed, but not very many people failed it. So the
physical tests became these soul determinant of whether you're gonna get hired. Even what
It was rank ordered, so the previous tests have been passed fail. So if you passed every part of it, you pass the test with our test. It was how you did on every element of it.
So he had to pass them all and then the faster we ran the mild pyres scored such so. Even if women had passed the test, they probably would not have been hired off the list disorder
here. Are you saying that when the law required women to be able to sit for the physical test, take the physical test, they changed it to make it more difficult gap and at the trial, the civil servant personnel dive for the city was in charge of administering the test.
Said. It's a hardest test we ve ever given for anything now that raises yours, indiscretions just a little bit, but what people don't under,
and is said if the city had been able to prove that the test was job related, namely tested for the actual abilities need to be trained as a fire fighter.
Tests would have stood right. Your complaint was not that it was too hard
Now it was, they were testing for the wrong, while so they were higher in the wrong guys. You know, if you want to take this out to its logical conclusion
and they would be hiring the wrong guys as well, because it
really testing for the correct abilities in the right way.
Then you get a bunch of
all the media was holding these public opinion polls so, like the Daily NEWS would say they would ask. Do you think so
there should be lowered in order for women to be hired as firefighters nobody's going.
Saying yes to have, but I wouldn't say yes to that's a leading question inside you know what it. What do you do? You think standard should be changed to have a fair test that actually test for the abilities to be determined. Yes, everyone, I think, would agree to that and that's what I was saying. But that's
The way that the media was portraying the test and then
you know the union was very much against my law suit.
And when I won the law soup before the district court and the Eastern District of New York, namely Brooklyn,
The city did not appeal. The union took the appeal up to the Supreme Court
You know the union is is gone around San
These women are too weak. They're gonna be a danger to the public. They're gonna be a danger to their fellow fire fighters. Are gonna, be a danger to themselves
and you know people bought that they bought that, including some of the male firefighters. So how old are you
when I finally won my law suit. Nineteen. Eighty two- I was thirty one, so
dependency, the lawsuit and the press is picking up on it? Did you feel like a pioneer? Did you feel like you were doing
for yourself and maybe would have consequences for other people. What was going through your head, when you're going through all the struggle, sir,
student of history,
and I realize that people had done really hard things too,
For me, the opportunities that I had as white woman growing up in the nineteen fifty is, even though they were limited and continue to be limited for women. Ok, but I realized that people had suffered a lot for other groups as well.
and that this was not going to be something that just change
two overnight. I thought if they could go through all of that
They could lose their lives in in all. Listen Martin Luther King Robert Kennedy, all those,
people. They were in my personal experience, and I thought this is a little thing in the big scheme of things. I thought it was an important thing to not give up. It was so
thing. That I thought- and I really believes is that the community and the fire service, both our advantage by having different people
as their fire fighters. So women we're going to bring a different set of experiences to the job that would benefit everybody. People of color people who grew up in the city, different generations. All these different perspectives and life experiences. Third gonna help the fire department do a better job, and you know people thought this is this. Is the thinking oh lawyer,
and feminist F word so so she's, just a bra bernie from as she's gonna win. The law
maybe probably not if she does
he's never gonna. Take the job. She's, never gonna, be a.
There is a lot of money riding on that. I wish I had taken those, so people thought you were destroying MC, appoint yes makeup,
You really want to be a far because I what yes, because I was a sole name class plaintive. I
was on the stand, put understand by Judge Sefton to testify
If I won my lawsuit, I would quit my law practice and become a fire fighter. If I had said no, I'm not gonna do that
that would have been the end of the loss, because there would have been no name class plaintiff no plaintiff
I told the truth I mean I owe you know I wasn't lying under oath and like so many other people do occasionally.
When we have not an area should never encountered that New York. There's a lot of there's a lot of pressure that the lawsuit energy issue deluded DO with Brenda Bergmann versus
the New York, those lot in
did you ever have down moments during that ha ha
play. Father in law got fired from his his client uniform fire officers union.
In reality, stellar job for them? For thirty years he got fired because they thought he was a simple
me in this, and you know encroaching men and in fact my Father law was not anxious for me to become a fire fighter. My ex husband did support me, but there are consequences. I mean I got death threats I to get an unlisted phone number in the days when people just did not have endless phone numbers again, I'm sure you can adapt to fight with us in a people
leaving death threats on my answering machine. It was shown up in my apartment building. They were follow me around on the street, threatening me
sending me threatening letters pornography to life, this is all before I came on the job. We're going to get too when you gonna job in our lives will be lost additional injuries to both the public and to the five, but I think yeoman why people
I didn't even know your we
surprised at how angry people got and people might have a different point of view. It was a long time ago, and they might think are carefully that you shouldn't have a woman
our fighter, but why? Why so much anger and bitterness about it? Such a challenge to the image that people have the last bastion of male supremacy? And I would say
combat military, combat, similar kind of thing, and maybe to also to some extent the trades is skilled traits, but there's a sense of entitlement.
in a lot of these families, that this is a job that reserve for my son, my cousin mail,
You know my mail, neighbour, etc.
you know, women are competing. Guess are gonna, get all kinds of special advantages. You know, because that's what happens with the minorities even know we're not a minority
you know, and then my son won't get hired as firefighter, but I think a deeper level on this
I see even non firefighting. Families is a threat to their like world view. What
men are still regarded as lesser, and if women can do this job than somehow it under cuts, the pedestal that we have put these men
on. This is how I see it is that it is. It is real
hard weathers racism or massage any were discrimination, gets people based on their religion. Its ignorance is ignored
and an idea that there are groups of people that are not as good as you. Therefore, because people have to establish a top dog hierarchy them and then so this is
like the ultimate challenge: America's heroes, everybody
firemen and people still say firemen, civil service term change, before
even came on the job in the nineteen. Seventy, so please say firefighter. They have this idea of six foot six
muscular man with a handlebar, mustache, usually white, and that's your firefighter well news. Flash male fire fighters have always been different sizes and different physical capabilities and different backgrounds in some respects, and
They managed to get the job done. So why wouldn't women do so?
You achieve what allowed people thought you couldn't have achieved me when the
suit and everyone this? Happily ever after now, the law fixed everything right
this is another. You know to eighty two, you man before you go on to what you had
he's after that. How do you feel when you found out you one yea, because I
lawyers in our so lucky I had lost,
rigour in the women's rights clinical and why you were you not teachers
just keep giving and why you outta here will be very happy. Another well, and so Lord had taken this case, but very wisely decided
add this- is way beyond what me in my students can do in the law, clinic casinos,
multi million dollar case, really in terms of the resources that had to be thrown out to one on for close to five years. She brought in double voice, implanted
big law from a new law, firm white, shoe law firm, they have very
senior litigators, who were assigned to this case and very accomplished associates in
those days all the types and all the people who are making the zero axes and all that and they could,
the experts. You know which cost
a lot of money, and so on
that, in a word to my favor and then when we one since
the sole name class plaintive and the other women hadn't exactly flocked to our cause, the quest
it was really knows only Brenda Bergmann gonna be interested in having this job, while, fortunately more
forty women decided to take and passed the revised physical, ok, the new job related,
physical. So now we had a group of about forty that went into the fire academy, the hats,
so normally in the fire department. When you get pass the test and you go in
the fire academy. Us there's a little bit. You know torture that goes on and stuff, but basically in New York City people were not fired at the fire kept me. You know they were
trained and they were sent out into the field
so we were there and it was like open.
season on the women I mean the guy's might as well not than there. Nobody was really looking at them or painting intention them. There were certain instructors,
there being encouraged by the union and others to get rid of the women and the fire academy. So
we were really abused a lot and the fire came. In fact, there are a number of instances
One mama was very seriously injured. Out there are other women could have been seriously injured and killed. We were given smoke
relation like I've never had not
maybe nine eleven
I've never had an this one on basically on
feared with you know, because he wanted to do was trying to get you to drop out right. You won the lawsuit
we're not done with you yet. No, no.
So we're gonna get rid of you in the academy and they did succeed
and getting women a few women to quit was
Standing to me on some levels is
that way more women didn't quit and they just stuck with it
and many women had to repeat the course I did not have to go through the fire. Count me for additional days.
Graduated on time with was was very small number of us, maybe ten or twelve of us out of the forty something actually graduated on time.
and again why we graduate and other people didn't graduated was nuts they capture.
During the standards in the academy so that apartment was complicit in so wasn't Jesse's
individuals and the union. The parlour was
Changing the standards for graduation practically every single day, it was your way to fight back during that period or eat a sort of drawn out.
I didn't know what was supposed to be the real deal out,
cadmium in how had been done in the past, we did have some support from the Vulcan society, which was the group of african
african fire fighters and officers who have had and go through similar kinds of things and they
This was at a whack, but the thinking was we just have to get through this right. We just
get through this and then once we get in the firehouse will well beyond problem
Sean for a year and will be some people who obviously won't like us to be there, but will get through that right
so then you go to included the firehouse, much which firehouse
I ask you to put it into words.
Which I have to go to so I went to fire. Come
that no longer exists, although the firehouse still there,
Mayor Jenkins, close engine, seventeen on the lorries side underneath the Whisper bridge there. It was not
great place to send me to there were
for leadership there and issues with us.
things they went on that didn't make
a welcoming place. Okay, so I get there
and in the media wants to follow me all around. That's really helpful when you're trying to learn the job and you're already feel, like you know, an official in the guise
like that either so little time passes
and some of the men start testing the the waters water sinner. So they start doing.
Little things, and then they start doing bigger things, and then we, the only woman at the very outset I was the only woman and that battalion, so they say
All the women to fire houses ever places separate place.
All medium to very busy houses. Nobody, no woman went to a slaughterhouse where very woman,
was alone wherever it was, as I saw is only if you went to something like a big fire like a second alarm, the you might
see another woman
But then there were the women fire fighters who didn't want to see the other women in because they were told you're. Ok,
but that woman down in over there she is
Good and you,
our girl. You know: you're, ok, word. Whatever its
you know the mentality of the token there's all kinds of US studies of this. You never ever encountered that I'm sure
it. Also some of the women were not supportive of some of the other one road.
being like the chief troublemaker. So
Why was the academy I formed an organization? The united
then firefighters, because I knew we get out in the field. There try-
pick us off one by one we gotta organise and we all support
one another, so we need an organization for that. So I form that and then they elect me the pros and cons
Who would want to be the president of that in our trying to talk to the department about all this
So then the men whom I and my fire has put me out the meal so that man, that idea by myself, make all my food by myself now more reading of penal burn jollier. I would need Tina Variety
Jennifer sandwich? This work? I wouldn't want you to know: I would not eat Pina burn jelly for a very long time as you associate it with their time, and you know this is like really again and weeds, but because we are
two units in that house. One unit would go out and buy the food for the other unit and we'd all eat together. But not me I'd say: would you pick me up an apple right,
the apple would come and be like the worst freaking out life. I mean an inevitable inedible, so I just stop doing that and I just stop asking them to get me anything. So I could go on for twenty four hours. You know up to twenty four hours really would nothing to eat. So then you go through
a probationary period and you make it through the torture and abuse, and now everything is fine right now. It's me I want to. I don't want to know why you're listeners to think that that period was the only thing that is going on with me was in being put out of the meal
I mean there's a great story about that. I was in, and
firehouse and basically the captain had ordered them not to put me on the meals only there for a month,
so he was working and they had
covering officer who happened to be african american- and you know coming officers, you can basically,
you can get around things are sometimes, if you want to
and so they went to him and they say we're on a food, Brenda Candy, and he said what you know. I mean yes, I, like that
they had told me- and I was out on the apparatus for by myself crying because this would not happen to me there and I was just like while this is gonna, be
career right and he went in and he said well, she can have half a my food who we always have too much food anyway,
and suddenly there was enough food for me in all, but it took p
like that. A new word guys like that who would stand up for the women
and other women who would stand up for the other women. So there were people who supported us and when
from outside the fire department and men from outside the fire department who supported us. But you know I admire
tank drained. I had crap left in my boots. I had my equipment tampered.
this is a dangerous job. So the idea that you can't
on your co workers to support you in a dangerous situation that that's that's not encourage.
what did you ever worry when you another calls that you were perfectly safe, separate?
isn't it was happening in the firehouse. I told my ex husband
something has happened. Where I lose my life, I guess seriously injured. I want you to investigate the shit out of this sorry, I beat you,
here, you know. Yes, I had real fears and you know when the death threats, the guy, left a message on my answer: machines,
calling from the firehouse you could hear the dispatcher in the background and the fire sizes
and other women. You know their one woman was threatened to be pushed off a roof by one of our Co. Workers in the company in this stuff was very real and.
women's stuck with it. Once I got on the job Molly, did they stick with it through the academy
through all that stuff, but they did not resign.
think there was only one woman who completed her probationary period, who subsequently
and then another woman moved and she resigned, but almost all the
instead, they all said in other
does a good job and allow these women. This is gonna, be the best job they would ever get in terms of money and benefits and
and the opportunity for community service and just so many different,
is, it is appealing. So then you became
firefighter after that year. Well, they fired me in
you have to go back to court again, yes to the same job, guess so first say: torture son. They fire ass. These
and myself and one other woman who do. We just happened to be the two most publicly prominent women trouble angel. She had a New York Cover story,
her New York magazine Cover story about her where she praised the men she worked with to the high haven't and then they put her out the mail but an unfortunate
coincidence is what's been Bonanno call at the two women who didn't make it the two most
of all the one on the cover of New York magazine, I'm the one who file the suit random
when who didn't make. It
the one who made it possible for the twenty two who did so Zeta an eye there
other women who were under threat, but we were
we were ordered back to the fire coming to be re, evaluated right before the end of our probationary period. We had started out getting really good evaluation,
Everything was fine and then the fire
She had a meeting with all the captain's where the women were assigned and said. If you can find a reason to fire. These women are back you up. So suddenly
of our evaluation, start going down the tubes.
Then data and I got hold back to the camp me when I tell you
Well, one guy who's back out there for retraining who is with us. He then
tired rather than Goethe,
what we were gone through, because he said I'm gonna get hurt here. So I'm just gonna paper at the end of that retesting. Worse, we come into work one morning, six o clock. In the morning I pass a guy sitting at the front desk and he says to me: you're gonna be fired today and I so what are you talking about?
he says it's in the daily news. That's all you found out. That's how I found out can be fired and then say that I'm meanwhile, you know sailors like she didn't have the
Your background that I had eyes looked at what was happening to us, and I thought this is the perfect retaliation.
I don't think I was a user annoy you out in no way or helpful yes way more than the original case itself. The retaliation case seem to me to be a lock right. Maybe my Lord inquiry
that way, but you know so we we got hold. Then we got fired.
Google go clean out my locker down my firehouse one of my friends from the
women. Friends went with me. They clapped when I left you now
just fantastic, wonderful and then we had to have a supper
trial and the city kept trying to delay it. Ll edgy chief attorney had to go
China, ok Judge said, I think you have a few other attorneys. We gotta go forward with this and sure enough couple months
there's an I got our job back and then we had to go back to
I can me again and be
evaluated again, but this time there were actually a couple of battalion
So we looking at what we were doing in what was happening to us.
things were more on a level than we got. Her far has changed and that was at the end
from the time you decide to become a firefighter to this moment after two lawsuits? How many years had passed?
see. I won the law suit in the spring of eighty two and I came on the job and fall of eighty two come up on the anniversary right now that got fired in eighty three and came back in January of nineteen. Eighty four July
Here's the others are years from seventy seven, but then you should continuously in the FDA and why right for a quarter century yeah
How how is now? Well the big?
Was not fun do. Did you feel
once you got in the second time the job that different kind.
Feeling a satisfaction than you had the first time.
Initially, maybe a little bed, and not just for me, the discrimination against the first group. One fireflies did not stop Wednesday and I got our jobs back and it continues to this day. It affects women's promotional opportunities. There are Simon opportunities that stuff still goes on, not not to the degree that it did, and things have gotten a lot better, but it took we were before the judge. I'm sure judge, sifting did not
back this case to go on before him for like ten years, and you know they tried with various women, they tried to re, assign them to dust jobs and things that were just pure and simple discrimination in open.
from Zeta myself. So we were the income by we, I say my lawyers and the women Firefighter Organisation. We were in court a lot for ten years and it didn't effect to every woman, but my
Nothing was said if they succeed, if the fire department succeeds in making women quit and picking
if the women one by one that eventually we'll get down to almost no women or no women and sure enough, they did some other things that resulted in
Number of forty dropping down down down and thence, though women from the original group were retired by the time that nine eleven
happened. So we only had about twenty five women as active fire fighters at the time and nine eleven out of a fire force of about ten thousand five hundred.
One thousand by one's aid, and I went back to the fire houses. Zeta ended up resigning.
I says she just could not catch break and I got to be too much for her
and I you know head issues I just I decided that I was going to study for promotion and I was going to stick with us. I was going to try my best to make a contra,
to the fire service. Now my own department didn't want to hear anything from me, even though I had all these advanced degrees- and you know think of myself as like kind of an analytical person in some respects and like to study things they're like
no answer. So I I looked outside my own department, so this is like an example of sometimes the things that you think are the worst thing that can happen to you in your life may end up being a really good thing for you. So I went outside my own department. I joined and became the President legal advisor for the National Organization of women.
fighters. I got put on National Fire Protection Association committees at a time where fifty and
I really didn't purchase, pay them
that certainly fire fighters didn't participate, and that might be some very high ranking chief
I went all over the world, people invited me to come and speak, and I met people from all over the world and I realise that it didn't have to be this way. We know that other departments, other organizations we're doing things differently,
and better and that you know we could learn from these other departments. We could make things better
only for the women here, but it's always been my belief.
that, when you made things better for
the women and the people of color in the fire department, the white male fire fighters benefit from that in way
say that you know they may not initially see Porto well.
You're. An unseen and everybody's got tunnel vision and are thinking,
Exactly the same way,
and so that can get your hurt. You know if you, if you,
Some people have different life experiences that they bring. To this end, there actually heard their opinions
actually respected. There are encouraged to to participate
in the organization and an equal way which didn't happen all the time. That is, to the benefit of everybody.
Operations recognizes, say no, that you need different voices in the room and the fire service,
been very slow to come to this realization, some departments much faster than others. New York, like a dinosaur but
You know people recognise and they admire firefighters, for the fact that we do what we can to help people in their worst hours. In a we see everything we take people out of vat subsidies stuck in their bathtub enough. We see terrible things,
people that have died. Speaking worst hours. We preferred a few times to nine. Eleven tell us about September. Eleven two thousand one your morning
so I got up. I thought I was going to be working in a political campaign and go vote. It was my day off and I was having my second cup of coffee at my apartment out in Brooklyn
beautiful day and now unbelievable and is looking forward to the day.
Change my care,
pain assignment from lower Manhattan like two blocks away from the trade center. This is how the day went for people. Just luck. Ok
Brooklyn, when at nine o clock in the morning I get a phone call from Kentucky
and my friends
turn on your television. That's when I see the north tower burning the South Tower and been here.
I look at their nervous and who must have been small plan or a helicopter, and I'm looking. I'm thinkin. Terrorism is a huge gash, multiple floors,
Fire I had been to helicopter crash is plain Bob and in a little things
I looked at then I thought that's a commercial plain and genoa
pilot would have been in the Hudson River before they would have flown over there. We don't keep our gear at home. I start, I think I'll run to the headquarters in Brooklyn. Then, while I'm outside of my apartment, I hear II planes gone into the South Tower
firehouse. So I run to the firehouse that I had been promoted out of over and Brooklyn is in two hundred and nineteen ladder, one hundred and five and I get there. So I can towers, burning, Brennan and there's about half a dozen of us. They come in from home. They hadn't recall this, yet no fire trucks, no equipment, no members for New York's,
Fire department could have happened at a worse time, change a taurus night or was there day tours at many times double the number of firefighters got on the trucks they took all the equipment with them. So we're trying to figure out cops and shut down all the bridges and tunnels
People remember this, but you couldn't was hard to get off your journey, we're going anywhere so that you know the public transport dispatches had sent all train traffic.
Swear, you know the subway, isn't everything so you couldn't get there were that my firehouse was north of the tree.
center, and I thought who am I going to get to my fire house. So that's why I went to the Brooklyn firehouse and then we go next or the cops. You laugh about this. We go next door. The cops
say. Could you please give us a police officer in advance to drive us over the men Manhattan, so we can help out and tourist surprises, say: ok, because normally it didn't
to us. Actually they had arrested one of our members stupid stuff so
say: okay, so we go back to firehouse when we were watching the television like one third of the entire world is watching the trade center real time, and why were watching the South Tower falls in fifty six minutes.
And about that time your comes a police officer with the Van now we get in all we basically have as stuff on our backs. Are codes are pants. Maybe a spare acts, nobody
apparatus no radio to communicate with no tools to speak of justice. We're getting across the Brooklyn Bridge
the only vehicle on bridge when we start across on inbound side, mobs people covered and dusk gone out to Brooklyn on me.
Side coming back here and
other or looking at them.
We're. In our little van we
to the Manhattan side. We are big noise nor tariff
down we're in this gigantic does storm
and please us turns on his Winchell wipers can see
stop. The van we're gonna run over somebody. We have up or coffin theirs of
chief stand in their right on Broadway.
He's got little line of officers. I walk over time.
give me a slimy numerous, as Brenda Guy firefighters with his people had come over with a scattered array.
There are standing on Broadway a group of my own off duty fire fighters from my own firehouse in Chelsea. They have no equipment either. No radios, no breathing apparatus snow hose
No, nothing. We gonna Simon. We walked towards the trade center. Worse than anything you can imagine. I tell you
you can't. You see the movies, you read the books, nope, that's not it it's so much. It was so much worse. I thought I know the people with me thought we're definitely going to die today, but woody into do. We thought that was
people are trapped in there. We have to do whatever we can. We ve got no water, the water mains are all broken when the towers fall down. We have no communications, we have no tools but working.
Do whatever we can to us, we start looking for the people that might be on that
up in the sides we can find- and we do this we do. We walk over toward somebody says: you're fired
is parked over we're in a word church street fire trucks parked
on West Street, on the other side- and I think ok, let's go over there because
any on duty. People they have all the equipment will get the truck gone when put water on the fire and I'm thinkin all this. We can be useful. We get over
we can get the truck started, its awful a dust, you know, won't start
nobody around no equipment completely stripped off, so we continue looking for people. When did you understand how many firefighters had gone up into the buildings?
before I knew there have been thousands of firefighters down there, because I
new. They had sent all the fire fighters from a hundred twenty fifth street South, all of them all those companies yeah pretty much, maybe not some of them anyway, most everybody and all the companies in Brooklyn that ringed Manhattan, Laura
hand and or special units, and then people like myself just came in from home and got there. You know so everybody,
There were thousands of firefighters cops and does
the civilians. You know I only learned this after I start doing volunteering as a tour guide for the nine Slash eleven memorial that fifty thousand people worked in that building everyday those building, seven
buildings and every single one of them was destroyed on nine eleven
we're working over and were is getting dark and crazy in other people, joy,
with me because it lost track of who they were supposed to be with, and all that people are other minds and
five! Twenty in the afternoon we are big noise and we were in the collapse zone for numbers.
Of the World Trade Centre. So we start running down. The streets were in the dust cloud. Another dusk law really forgets about. Seven
as you can forget about that, because only forty seven stories only the people who have conspiracy theories- you know don't forget about seven but
no seven fell down, we could have been killed then, and we ran into a building. We got out of it. Waited for stop, came back out again.
and continued working and Bob
and I thought well, we have anything to eat or drink. Really here everybody's get there not right. We gotta go back to firehouse. So that's when we go back now,
we discover the initially thousands of people were listed missing. I was listen missing. Initially
the man whose gear I had borrowed in Brooklyn to put on Veni Broughton.
he was believed to be alive because people some
turn around. You know, but it wasn't. Him owes me weren't as gear he was killed. I mean it was just
So, ultimately we learn that you know
the on duty, lieutenant that day from my company, Lieutenant Phil, petty from ladder twelve unto my fire, my firefighters were killed, evacuating people from the myriad hotel guess from the myriad hotel and other my fire fires were stand and only ten feet away from them survived. We lost our two highest ranking people to be killed that day bills
and and began C on Wall Street and the engine and my firehouse who were standing next to it.
they ran a different direction and they all survive. You know it was just a fluke yeah, so you you work night and day busy doing stuff. Colonel look for four people can help them at one moment. Did you begin to take in the magnitude of the loss not just to your colleagues in the fire department, but the country in the city? Immediately I mean what are incredible, dangerous toxic
Terrible, I mean people talk about the people, were there, remember the smell, more armor
smell for months
Mr designers Orient was right across the way in a very close you come out the Brooklyn bridge. Subway stop. I would come from twenty second street back then.
And into a second street, the air was sort of finally could smell little bit. They come out at the Brooklyn bridge. We would say, let's miasma like death for a long time and again
the fires burn their fur. You know about six months because we had to keep
going down down down in layers and woods
raising the meares and nobody was killed after nine. Eleven I mean it was
such an incredibly dangerous side, particularly at the beginning, things could fall on a few fell.
into the pile. Not only might you in a burn up, but you could get cut to shreds because
Scully everything that was air was like a field of razor blades. So.
you don't people got injured, I got injured the second day. I was down the twelve, they cut my arm open. Nobody went six, some guys had driven up overnight from Maryland. You know people showed up. This is what
I really want to emphasize about the story, so it was terrible and in the fire department, I'm sorry it was totally unprepared for this. It was not. It did not have the large incident capabilities that we needed for that job and we had to call in the U Dot S fire service and the National Fire Academy and bringing people to give us a hand
all these people showed up so volunteers. We add half a million people from all over the world, come to violence, to help us here in New York and
Tat was amazing. Now we didn't
item in the pile because they were danger to themselves and they were danger to us, but they did all kinds of things for us these people and we were incredibly grateful, even though we may not have acted like it at the time, so that was that was important. That was really important. People wanted
to one say thank you and they want to help the most of all. They want to
I remember the lines of people standing, Donnie, blood, donor, blood and in no blood was really ever needed
was one of the saddest moments in and images from that time.
tried really really hard to find somebody alive after nine eleven, and we did not succeed. Even though people were taking a norm,
threats to go in there and look right.
the survivor guilt lot of my friends who survive nine eleven these days still talk about the survivor guilt, do feel it absolutely by three hundred forty three firefighters, three or four: either firefighters, twenty three New York City, police officer, thirty, seven port authority, all kinds of other uniform.
People in a core officers. They all rush there and try to help them. And then all these fine
tears does well in our group who went to the fireflies
memorials actually dedicated to Glenn. When it was a volunteer fire fighter went there are lost his life and then all the people were
George, you know and exposed all those toxicity, so the server
ever Gill is enormous, but you have to know a lot of people also talk about how out of respect for the people who are lost
We can't just those of us who did survive. We can't just sit around and mope about it right. We ve
given the gift of life and we
need to give back.
And we need to try and make the world better
There was a lot of anger that came out of the out of nine eleven, especially in the fire department
and I saw my my subordinates and some of my peers
sir peers. You know they just want to kill everybody.
This Muslim. They wonder in bomb Afghanistan, back to the dark ages
whatever you know an but
also a group of people who said you know it's hate that got us to this point
we need to respond with love, because more aid is not going to help
so they started to do things to try and help with habitat,
for humanity, or you know, after the the hurricanes down the Gulf Golfer in Japan after their tremendous disaster or after other terrorist attack like when the Boston Marathon bombing or you know the
bombings in the UK and Europe. You know a lot of people did respond in a positive way. They set up schools to educate afghan girls in no they they there is just
lot of that that happen to, and so that's what a lot of us have as they take away that
We are going to use what time we have left to really
honour those who were lost by doing this work. Can you believe it's been eighteen years.
While certain times of the year, it seems like right now seems like it just happened and then other
It seems like a million years ago.
No when, when all the testimony and stuff was going on down in Congress about the nine eleven survivors, getting medical care and and monitoring, and know that that raised a lot of love feelings as well, so
Sometimes you know nine eleven is still very much with us and, and it concerns me and our concern
to me that
how will we respond? If there's another attack will? Will fire fighters run into buildings
the same way. Well, I believe that they will.
although I hope that we have learned some lessons from nine eleven,
You know how will people who are affected by the attacks respond? Will they respond with vengeance and hatred?
nor will they respond.
In ways it no good ways. You know what I think
Eighteen years having gone by it astonishing to me that there are so many people who were infants,
Or were born after nine eleven, some of them cannot vote. How am I
I was four months old on nine eleven n and she's. Now the voter and people who
we're just born or born after nine eleven are becoming firefighters themselves and they don't
the experience of having lived through it and all
the sooner we talk about all the time. What we want, no curriculum to teach it yeah
in New York City. There is no curriculum to teach
love and others the memorial in the museum he up and you launched. I have a schoolgirl go there and that is that can be a problem in a special if you live in the Far EAST
to the queen's or something what why do you volunteer there and can give tours a lot of it
to do with the honouring the people who are lost and keeping their story front in people's consciousness, because there are so many people on we. You know we don't get very many people from New York and we don't get very many schools while you we'll get so many people from your there's. A lot of people from New York was never been back down. What lower manhattan-
because it's it's too raw, it's to rob, but people, I'm telling you that if you, I think it helps people to come on one of our tours and reengage by hearing a story and basically thinking back in a in a way that isn't about it. It's going to happen like right now again in
and thinking about all the good things and looking at lower Manhattan and if that doesn't show the resilience of the human spirit, not just sir buildings in our hands
beautiful memorial, which is the most meaningful thing to me, but also the fact that in a life has returned the schools, the residences, Thee businesses a word he no basically completely destroyed by they attack. All that stuff is back and
People are back, you know, they're doing these positive thing, so I want people when they go on my tour. I want them to honour the people. I want him to learn more about nine eleven, because there is an increasing number of people that dont noise.
about nine eleven. I want them to be inspired by the people who,
Every built, their lives and men are trying to do good things in the world which revised to people who are trying to seek true, just like you did
he tried to become the first woman firefighter in the EFTA, and why of how to persevere in get through it? It takes a village two things I say frequently, and one is that you know I don't think people achieves,
also change, no matter if its Martin Luther King or any one know glorious,
Anybody that we regard, as you know, like the paragons of civil rights movements, nobody achieves social change.
By themselves. You know you need support networks, you need lots of people. Doing lots of different things were about to celebrate the hundredth anniversary of suffrage. Women suffrage did not occur because
Isn T Anthony and Elizabeth Katy, Stanton and others legs Sojourner truth stood up and said all right.
Give women the vote? It's got. People's minds had be changed and it took thousands more
the ends of women and men all around the country to achieve that from taking a movement,
That was regarded as utterly ridiculous.
at a time where women were not even allowed to speak in public, and
transforming that into a situation where we can have women as candidates as president that didn't occur fast
seventy two two hundred years, depending on how your counting, ok along time decades,
for women even got the phone, and even then there was
still a lot that need to be done in terms of true access to the vote? That's the second
part one as it takes a lot of people, but the second thing is and we need to work together and this
one thing is that it can
take a while? So you can't expect that
everything's gonna change overnight and can be found
I knew you know you may move forward a little better than you move back again, but the point
Is we gotta keep moving forward and if we can't talk to one another, if we can't work together despite some
differences that sometimes seem insurmountable, but in the big scheme of things, are really not insurmountable, then we're in trouble as a country or in troubles a country it doesn't have to be there
way, you know it doesn't have to be all this public vitriol and it doesn't have to be all the hate that spewing out of the executive branch and it doesn't have to be that way. And now it's been that way before
Joe Mccarthy and nails civil rights movement where people are being killed, then losing their jobs and in no all cars.
terrible things will happen to them and they persevered, and we owe it to them too.
Persevere in the struggles are, we have right now.
and the justice system is such an important part of that we can not be undermining the rule of law, which is what is happening right.
Now? It's so scary. To me: oh,
as a lawyer and a lid again and
I know someone whose life was changed by justice in a good way, not always the best way, because no judge is going to be.
wireless within twenty four hours a day. But you know is
perfect as justice is. It was better than no justice and we have to fight for that. As a country, every one of us captain rendered thank you for your
thank you for being on the thank you man. How are your career enormously? So half
my law school thanks. So much.
the conversation continues for members of the cat they insider community in this week stay tuned bonus. Brenda Bergmann tells me about the challenges of fire fighting in New York City life was like in the days after nine eleven, and a little about
worth monumental. Women,
Innovations dedicated to placing the first statue honouring women's history in central park to hear the bonus
and the exclusive weekly Cathay insider podcast, gotta catch
our com slush inside this. Just then, you are looking at a policy of very disturbing live shot there. That is the World Trade Centre, and we have unconfirmed reports this morning that a plain has crashed into one of the towers of the world
centre. So devastating has happened again unconfirmed reports.
plain has crashed into one as it is now,
So I'm recording today on the eighteenth anniversary of nine eleven.
every anniversaries very difficult, and you can become
welcomed by the tragedy that day in the terrible things have happened to so many people and
country. For me, some anniversary seem especially poignant. If you were a baby
born on around September. Eleventh, like my daughter, was you become an adult and this anniversary, as I discussed with Brenda Bergman,
lots and lots of people suffered on that day, but perhaps
group more than your city fire department, their known here as New York's bravest and boy- did they prove it that day, three hundred forty three people in the fire department lost on nine,
and that's maybe, what makes it especially moving for so many people to see the children of
well who died as firefighters and nine eleven themselves being sworn in defied fires
in the city that law so much eighteen years ago. It's not just the children who become firefighters or-
first responders. Another variety
Spiralling a former colleague
Jonathan liken.
to me in the southern district of New York, we overlapped Berlin,
Thousands surely be
Jonathan began, as in the USA into
in one his daughter was born. Here's what his daughter
Kelly Liken recently wrote a blog. I was
on September, eleven two thousand one in New York City that morning my mom than a public defender at the legal aid society and eight and a half months.
it was me, walked
I've miles away from the burning twin towers
in lower Manhattan to my parents.
Parliament on the upper West side. She went,
The labour that afternoon, after a cat
right across central park, with a police escort and lights and siren. So my mom in labor to cross the barricades. I was born at five hundred and fifteen p dot m
by emergency C section at Mount Sinai Hospital
Kelly goes on to say all my life people have
acted to the story of my birth with wonder.
Especially when they hear about my mom's journey from ground zero to the delivery room.
I've known since I was little that, although something terrible happened on the day I was born, my birth gave hope to my parents in the people around them.
But until I visited the nine eleven memorial for the first time the summer I didn't fully,
comprehend that a whole both real and
spiritual- was blown into the earth. On the day I was born
visiting the nine eleven Memorial a museum for the first time I thought of my birthday as a test
across time connecting meeting
Those who were lost that day
go to the museum? I felt a strong need to understand the stories of the people who were lost and how to share an honor those stories it's. What did Kelly like in the turns eighteen today decide to do.
She has chosen to serve as an official ambassador for the nine eleven memorial to bring
anniversary in stories about that date to her
cool shaker high School in Ohio Kelly Rights.
As I enter my senior year, I will help to tell the story to my classmates all of
were born around September, two thousand one as well
it had to graduation next spring. We must all take responsibility for understanding nine eleven learning from it honouring the victims in the
first responders
the world a better place in their memory. Happy birthday, Kelly
always believe that nine eleven taught us some basic things.
There is evil in the world, but there is also good.
cowardice in the world, but also courage. There is terrible tragedy, but also
and I'll, tell you sitting here.
ten years on? I still believe those things to be true, and I think
these children of nine eleven. If I can call them that help to pay
How much good there is in the world and how the future can be brighter than the past
That's it for this episode of stated thanks again to my guest captain render Bergmann if you like,
we do rate and review the show. An apple pie casts or wherever you listen every party
review. Helps new listeners, find the sharp send me your quest
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Transcript generated on 2021-09-18.