From cafe and the vocs media pack has network, welcome to stay to I'm free bernard and when I fell a super interesting, which is the idea that people who believe the blind was literally true are less tolerant because it makes it if I'm right than your wrong in. Why should I? Why should I tolerate wrongness and sinful, as they make sense, but you know who the was taller people the people with the church every week, because they build those bridges to people who are different in them. Ryan Berge he's a leading data analysed and religion and politics and a political science professor Eastern illinois university has also been a pastor, and the american baptist church for over twenty years urged four trends at the intersection of religion and politics and has found some pretty notable take always american less religious. Today than ever over the last decade, the portion of people-

identify with a religion, has dropped by eleven points and that has wide implications for society. So, what's going on, why are people leaving religious institutions, power, religious groups becoming more polarize and what does it all mean for our elections? That's coming up stay tuned. support for the show comes from the national women's law centre, courts and public policy are key. Battleground for gender justice and that's where you can find the now no women's law centre working tirelessly to create change for over fifty years, The national women's law centre has fought and won for women and for all of us for protecting pregnant workers to fighting for equal pay and ending harassment and violence. Dedicated to shaping our democracy and future for the better, join them by this

End of EU elsie dot, org support for the show comes from plaque in libya was like the financial system, but different, care where you come from what you look like you're credit score or your outrages. Food delivery, abbots ripped out was finance for everyone everywhere. All the time racket see what crypto can be, not investment advice, crypto trading involves risk of loss, repair, currency services are provided a? U s in? U s: territory, customers by papered ventures, incorporated gps disclosures at crack and dot com, legal, slash disclosures. Now, let's get to your questions, we got an email from listener. Tony, who has two questions. The first one is this: why should we care of mark meadows is tried and state or federal? ct. Well, that's a good question and something that we've been talking about on this podcast and also the cafe insider week to week, you'll recall that mark meadows and some other defendants in the georgia state

is leading to the election in georgia, have moved to transfer their case to federal court removal to federal court. It's called in technical legal problems and its available to be who, at the time of the conduct a legend, the indictment, we're federal officials and the conduct in question was related to their federal work, their official duties. So the question is the things that mark medicine doing, did they follow in his official duties or outside his official duties, and if it's the former, he has a shot at going to federal court. You will recall that donald trump made the same kind of motion with respect to the staircase in new york brought by alvin bragged yea in manhattan, the mare with respect hush money. Payments is stormy daniels as others. Of new york, federal judge, calvin heller, seeing ruled that the conduct in question was not related sufficiently to the president's work as commander in chief or the head of the executive branch So the case would not be transport network meadows, maybe has a better argument

or is he saying everything he did with respect to the election in finding out about the election and calls he made to Georgia were at the direction of his direct boss. The present of united states and that the ambit of the chief of staff job is very broad and almost everything he's doing, if not everything that he's doing in his lawyers were our official duties. I don't know little succeed or fail having you probably has worse of the argument, but it's a much stronger argument than trump had in the manhattan case. But back to your question, why should we care? I dunno that we care that much the federal court, even if it does accept the case and transfer the case to federal court, will still look at the georgia weakest shoot as written applied, georgia law and so the kinds of witnesses you see in the testimony that we'll hear about will largely be the same there. A couple of things maybe are different that maybe we should care about one as there may be a slight difference in the jury pool in the federal court case versus the state court case and second

It may be a big deal for a lot of people who have been commenting on this in the georgia state court. The the great likelihood is we'd be watching the proceedings on television. They will be public and transparent. I think the american public will get a chance to observe legal action literally inaction much the way they think we learned a lot in the country, from the january six committee's hearings we're done mostly open and in public that a likely that will not happen that the case is transferred to federal court. As your second question, why would metals choose to testify in full county case as he did on Monday. That's another great question, generally speaking, the defence don't often if, at their actual trial on the merits, withdrew determining whether or not the person is guilty because you subject yourself to potentially, with cross examination and also to other contradictory statements. So can be a rough road to testify it all in a criminal case, and here it's not even the trial stage.

The preliminary stage relating to emotion is made to move the case from stay court to federal court, so he's giving the government a preview through cross examination of the cap, If the things that he will say in his defense, why did he do it? But the main reason is to give substance to the argument he's making that his role as chief of staff was broad that all he was doing was following the instructions of donald trump, and that was basically all official business to put meat on those bones. He's probably the best. Witness may be the only good witness to do that. There is talk about his job, his understanding of his job and the scope of his job, not really a lot of other people who are able to do that at such a hearing with it I backfired not we'll, have to see so urgent

imagine every week. We get a lot of questions as we did this week about the trial travails of donald trump and they probably make up the lion's share of questions we get and that's understandable, given that trump is under indictment in four different jurisdictions and there's a lot to talk about and a lot to unpack and think about this week. I think the trump questions may have come in second place in first place a series of questions about how I enjoyed the Springsteen concert at metlife stadium last sunday, Steve posted on threads. What was the highlight of the Springsteen show there's a tweet from jill. How was bruce last night, there was a tweet from Melissa. How great was springsteen last night, which illimitable leading question. There was another tweet from Susie who asked how fabulous was the concert, so everyone, basically in agreement, that it must have been amazing. The question is how amazing well I'll answer your question. Those views have been listening to the show for awhile may be aware. My wife and I have three kids, the oldest one, is gradually

in college. In may, our middle son is in college and our youngest son. We took to college for the first time last week, so ill. It makes me feel sad or happy for them very proud of them of all of them, but you know it brings you down a little bit of your parent and you've been living with your child for eighteen years, and you drop him off at college, no matter how proud and excited you are about that. So I think we needed a little bit of a pick me up and bruce, provided that I've been to a lot of bruce concerts and I would rank this one up near the of all contracts have been to the energy. The joy, the crowd was really unbelievable. Highlights for me was, as always, Bruce's render of my favorite song of all time. Thunder road never disappointed, I that is particularly good

last sunday and then, as a lot of people who are bruce, fans have been commenting. He played jungle, land which is not routine at recent bruce concerts and in particular, seeing bruce Springsteen in new jersey is extra special jersey, where I grew up asbury park with my father practiced medicine for fifty years and were Springsteen first made his name and where he hails from particular special is how bruce ended the show a little bit surprisingly, but goes over unbelievably well in the garden state. His interpretation of jersey girl, pretty special, pretty great and bruises playing to a stadium in a particular stadium meadowlands there's a particular stanza in his song wrecking ball. That goes over really monumentally. You may know it it's there.

Here here, where the levy

and, as I always say when people ask me why I like Springsteen, I paraphrase John stewart who, once head on his tv show, do you like joy if you like joy, go watch in concert I'll, be right. Back to my conversation with rain, birch, support for the show comes from the national women's law centre. The courts and congress are key battleground for gender. Just and that's where you can find the national women's law centre working tirelessly to create change for over Two years the national women's lawson has fought and won for women and

all of us like when they instituted protections for pregnant workers by securing fair treatment laws in several states along the east coast or when they helped push through a presidential executive order that resulted in higher pay for federal contractors and state minimum wage workers or in twenty twenty one when they led the way for a more equitable judiciary, but hoarding more women of color appointees. That's just the tip of the iceberg of the critical work. The national women's law centre has done, and you too can support their efforts there, a leading force in advocacy for women and girls in the. U s striving to create a better country for the next generation and dedicate to shaping our democracy and future for the better, learn more and show your support by visiting and w elsie dot. Org Support for stay tuned comes from simply safe. It's the holidays

so you might be spending more time away from home than usual. But did you know that, according to fbi, data break ins and property thefts spike this time of year? That's why simply safe is offering a holiday deal of up to fifty percent off, so you can stay safe. This season, the comprehensive protection system covers your whole home in simply safes. Advanced sensors cannot only protect against detected break ins but also home disasters like fires and floods, with new twenty four seven lifeguard protection and a smart alarm wireless indoor, camera monitoring agents can see and speak to intruders, helping stop crime right as its happening, plus, simply save sixty day risk free money back guarantee that you try it out, and if you don't love it, you can return your system for a full refund this holiday season. You can protect your home and family with simply safe and for a limited time you can save up to fifty percent on any new system with a fast protect plan visit simply saved our com, slash preach that simply safe dot com, slash preach

there is no safe, like simply safe. Religion can feel like a frog topic in american politics. science, professor and pasture ryan Berge, cuts through the rhetoric and looks at the numbers, he's been tracking and trends in religious behaviour? Professor rhine berge welcome to the show export much me. Pre really appreciate it, so, I've been wanting to talk about religion, religiosity in him, again in the world for some time in the way it with our politics in your the perfect guest to talk about that, given all the different hatchie where because my first question, though, is as someone who is both a professor but also a pastor and the baptist church what interested you in parsing, these numbers and doing grabs

now trends in religiosity and religion in the united states in the first place, yeah I've always been obsessed with just explaining myself. You know. Why am I the way I am and where do I fit into the larger story of american history- and you know I grew up in the nineteen nineties in a southern baptist church called like prototypical, evangelical, right wing anti abortion, and you know I really wanted to figure out like what was up with that was that weird, is that normal and what I understood after making thousands of graphs is of the real joys I have in life is helping their people understand who they are and why they are the way they are in big sort of macro level, trends and changes in american religion and politics. I think it makes Feel like not so alone, there is actually a lot of other people it? Helps him go oh hi. Now I get. Why aren't that way in for those moments? A revelation are really what makes me keep doing this kind of work. So when we talk of and you talk about in your work: his verses, nonreligious people- let's do it, definitions when you re search this in your research trends and when other experts do the same,

definitions, are they using of religion? Verses non religion is at church indents. Is it how they answer surveys? How do you define those things? Yes, a religiosity is really hard to define some morpheus concept. The way that most social scientists think about it is. We call the three b's, behavior belief and belonging so behaviors like I go to church synagogue or mosque. Like I participate in religious, I pray I give money to church those are kind of behavior things believe things like, I believe in god, or Jesus or Heaven or hell, and in last. One is belonging which is like how do you identify and surveys? We ask you what your present religion of any yo. Do. You say your catholic do say your protestant easier, in do or muslim or buddhist, or do you say that you're religious identity is atheist, agnostic or nothing in particular, so the people, but then, if I say, theist, agnostic or nothing in particular that the group we call nuns in o any ass. They kind of. that non religious people in america, so It's interesting, I can ask about those sub heading

or is it the nonreligious? My team show me some your graphs that you posted and you have a religious breakdown of generation, z and according to this you have thirty one percent of generation, z believe in nothing, in particular nine percent agnostic, nine percent atheist. What's the difference between those between and among those three groups, so we think that eight we really class for atheists agnostics is is one category and we call us people secular people, what that means is they have thrown off religion and and replaced it with a secular worldview things like science and rationality on that's what they're, of use based on now, nor are they necessarily against religion, or is it some subset of agnostics, an atheists who might consider themselves to be anti religion in some sense, so great question: I just gotta a huge grant from the templeton foundation to figure out there's different types of nuns out there

using a new categorization scheme. I'm thinking will I'm gonna see as there's gonna, be evangelical atheists right people who are atheist but wants you to be an atheist two and one convention by religion is bad and I even Dela glaziers, it's you liked that for cried band. I think, but I do think like you and I think, like the early ways of atheists and we're like that right. It was like if atheists and used to be an atheist, two religions, bad. I hate religion. It's it's a tool of oppression. All those things are very marxian understanding, but there's also libertarian atheists. Writer, like I was gonna believe in god. I think religion can bab I've. You would believe in god go to church. That's on you wear it at your thing, right, the nothing in particular group. The third group is actually to the most interesting group at America today, because they grown so rapidly over the last ten Fifteen years a quarter of americans, I call them nothing in particular, so let us I mean we have, though it is a question. How is that different from agnostic? So if you look at that between atheists, agnostic and nothing particular fifty one percent of aids.

have, for your college degree, its twenty five percent, so nothing in particular, set before your college degree, one third of nothing in figures, have a high school diploma or less and make fifty thousand dollars a year or less one third of them. So right are the very bottom of the s. Yes, spectrum or atheist. Agnostics are near the top of the esa spectrum. Atheists. In age in politics. At rates that far exceed the general population, far exceed wide evangelicals are easily the most engage political group in America today, atheists are nothing particulars, are the least politically involved group in america. Today they do not go to meetings, they don't go to rallies. He don't even put up yard signs. They want nothing to do with politics, so they're, really, socially and economically and politically on completely different planets. So and to allow those distinctions and levels of political involvement and participation across all groups. In a few minutes, that, what I was asking more about was was, what's the definitional difference between an agnostic and nothing in particular. Yes,

what agnostic says that I'm not sure if god exists or not so they think about in in some kind of way, when I think of nothing figures. I think a shrug mare. You know, like not this, but I'm not the man category right. It's like I'm, not entirely but I'm not pro religion either. I think than nothing take those are really anti establishment. They don't like institutions, educate in politics, religion was it didn't go to church, but they don't necessarily reject the existence of god is a fair one Third them say, religion is somewhat, are very important, their lives, so so there there. It then, a weird in between between being atheists, agnostic and, being you know, protestant or catholic they're sort of in between yeah. It is untoward and I'm trying to figure out what I am. But I don't. I don't really talk about my own personal, religious beliefs, but it's kind of interesting to see how these things get ground. And plodded out so before we get to the united states and the internal numbers and metrics of religion and religiosity in united states. Am I correct in over some time ago this was true,

is united states among western, democracies, by many definitions, most religious country o easily coming by everyone, gas. We are easily religious. So what are some others metrics church attendance, neil your since of america's about twenty five percent american say they go to church every week. We know the autumn lot of it lie about it, but you know whatever they have to just go. Ok, that's what you say lie in which direction well, they can go more like there's. A really interesting study like this in preprint from university of chicago, where this guy looked at cell phone tracking data and found that only three percent of americans actually go to religious services every week using cell phone data. I dunno, if that's true or not, but we lie the upper direction. A ton hence in european countries. Urges about fourteen percent, so you know twenty five percent versus fourteen percent. We are dead. more likely go to church. If you look at even believe measures. Eighty five percent of americans still believe in god at some level now also was fifteen percent. Take an atheist, atheist agnostic view

you know, I don't have numbers in western europe. It's gotta be way lower than eighty five per cent. So we are. We are in a totally different world when it comes to religion Have another one year charts the talks about weekly really the tendency, united states and europe. and you say accorded this chart that the country of Poland has I with little lives attendance rate than any state in the. U s that forty four percent and in the most road is a tense with respect to a state in the united states is utah, even at the other end of the spectrum. You have denmark with three percent weekly religious attendants, yeah so what accounts for americans by these metrics being more religious than their counterparts in western democracies? So one explanation is that we never adopted a state church in the united states. You know a lot of western.

Western european countries, have a state church yet to be in germany. You have to opt out of paying taxes to the state religion, so there's nothing to rebel against in the same way, if you want to make someone hate something make it part of you know it is the fact that we ve never, and there are also what's really good about americans. We have a lot of religious competition in this country. Media, look like county level data heart besides, obviously who does not wire here with elder. Yes, I mean that's a whole different world, but in most counties it's not like we're Catholics are eighty percent or ninety percent. You know you might have forty percent catholics, but then, like thirty percent protestants and recent muslims and ten percent. You said we have a really nice mix in america, religion and there's a theory that actually is for religion, because those religious compete with each other to try to bring in new members in that creates a sort of economy or to try to bring a new people and that makes religion flourish guzzler in competition with each other. It was, but you don't mean this any real competition between Christianity and hinduism and islam demean denominations within particular religions, or do you mean broad religions themselves

yeah there's not a whole lot of people who jumped from light, say evangelical hindu, oleaginous, nasa huge pipeline, but there are lots of Alex. You become no denominational evangelical, for instance, like that's, actually a huge pilots and whether these are the catholics are just fading is because a lot of becoming protestant. So you'll like this petition, I think inside tradition, like you know, said we will go from being l de esteban buddhists. Like that doesn't happen. Very often, You know a lot of who were going is going from being protestant or catholic to being none being atheist, agnostic or nothing in particular, an inner one. Religion gets complete, that's where little loses a lot more people in that there's a treasure miracle. The main line which, like episcopalians in niger to crises old fort. Like really, you know, uptight churches they're going down, rapidly in largely because they could rely on all this money they've made over the last. You know: here's an interesting staff will repeat: the episcopal church owns most of wall street in new york city. They have it in a trust. And in two thousand seventeen according to new york times interest on that trust was over three hundred million dollars, so you might have something I didn't know yet.

So you might not be so interesting growth when you got three hundred million dollar income stream every year. That will never go down, so you know competition being for it means you work harder and when these tradition have a lot of money in the bank. They might not be so desperate. My now works hard. Is there any fruit to the conjecture, the part, the reason america religious by these metrics. Is that our founding was part based on on the exercise of religion, free exercise while there there is no doubt that there were they allow the framers where religious, but they, therefore religion, doesn't really math well under the current religion of amerika. You know, like you it looked back, no thomas jefferson, wasn't evangelical or ben franklin or or george wash indoors and even jellicoe, let's just completely historically inaccurate. I mean we definitely release baseness country, like every colony, had a lot of ledges people in it. But if you look at the data from the colonial period, what you find, as there were actually probably me fourteen pregnancies than there were weekly tenders in the colonies. In the seventeen hundreds like people were,

not going to church that much even back in the death here we're doing something else. They were engaged in other activities on Saturday night, apparently, that we're not alone. We go turtles. We ve. every bit as well as social. Now we were very wholly, but I think that we create this myth right that we are found by these pilgrims your puritan, who never did anything wrong who are always update citizens. We were birth, a scoundrels and weirdos and castles in you know we had religious, amongst those people, but they were deathly we're not the predominant strain of em. can society even in the colonial period, losers. your letters and notes and complaints to professor I am berge scallions, that's not a word. You hear that often were they used a lot back in, though I was just teaching what the colonial period class I mean the people came to america. If you had a good life and in western europe, why would you go across the ocean? Go to america? You could probably die where they also rep scallions alive. Scully wags, as well as I want to see a chart

this category, so you mentioned earlier that there is a certain amount of religious competition in the. U S, people move from one to the other, but it seems like a trend. You ve been examining and studying for some time now. Is it and away from a particular denomination or religion. Towards one of these other categories, nothing in particular, agnostic or atheist? Describe what that trend has been? Yes, so I, The the denominational christianity and the catholic church are really under siege right now, so almost reprocessing denomination in America has lost a significant amount of its membership or the last you're forty years, for instance, the presbyterian church usa went from three point: one million people, a nineteen. Forty one point: one million people today something there third the size? They were. Even this We're baptist or sixteen point two million in two thousand six now down to thirteen point, two million lost three million members unless sixty one point: five million the last three years combined by the law. you know, numerical drop. What thrill the child

for those denominations are there being confronted with with two problems. One is the nuns which we talked about: atheists, agnostic, nothing in particular worth percent of america, nineteen semi too. Now, our thirty percent of american a motion regions either over forty five percent of america, but the other thing that Talking enough about is the rise of non denominational promising christianity in the Nineteen. Seventy is only three percent of americans identified is non denominational. Now, fifteen percent of all americans identifies non denominational there, the only protestant family that grew over them. ten years, the lutherans, the baptist Methodist the presbyterians, now denominations? Are the only type of christianity is growing in America today, right now so does it is it's a trend it matches what's going on in other countries or is it unique to the united states, it's very unique to the united states? So can a professor explain it to me what what's causing the shift? Why thing a lot of it is its youth? If you think what american society we become a much more bottom up culture than we ever been in us

shall media sort of democratized. Everything about life but social media was around forty years ago that things I began thirty or forty years ago wrench. So the nuns really started rising in the nineteen nineties and they went from five percent to seven percent, but it's so confusing everytime, you see nuns. I know, I'm sorry, n, o n e s, none got it. Okay, not between nineteen. Seventy, two in nineteen ninety one? They went from five percent to seven percent. So like nothing, like just around right yeah but from ninety, Ninety nine he wanted to day they ve gone from seven percent. To thirty percent I mean just an absolute hockey, stick growth, but just an explosion in our. We tried to do a couple things. One is in the nineteen nineties if you think that when new gingrich and contact with america happen in eighteen, ninety four- you know where he was He was willing to say that the democratic not only wrong or evil right, like the other party, it is awful polarization really kicked off. The ninety nine is when new gingrich, but you also know a thing about it. do not happen. In the early nineteen nineties, the berlin wall fell in the cold war.

Was much more about politics is not religion too. It was about those godless, atheists, communist and us good. Upstanding god, fearing americans, wait until you're saying when, when that battle ended, people lost kristen, religion, all I'm saying is. It was ok to be an atheist after that, in other words, communist connotation, no one! If you say or eighty saved known goes you go, the economy is now, don't you like? No one, no one connects those tooth together, but in the ninety nine nineteen eighty, especially yes, you communism is brandon, end imo, confusing the new gingrich reference year are. You and in a sense that when politicians began have religion intrude into politics. People became discouraged about religion rather than politics. They felt they had to decide what they were, and so now, if you look at the modern democratic party tomorrow, craig party, is about forty five percent nonreligious people, atheists, agnostic, nothing particular and fifty five percent rule people blades almost no white christians. Now it's it's muslims, its hindus, it booty

is black protestants. It's a span of catholics in hispanic evangelicals in the republican party begun the party of white christianity. Seventy five percent of republicans today are white christians, What happened? Was people fella get sort themselves out? If you look at the data from the late nineteen eighty, and you look like an evangelical church. Half of those congregations. Republicans for democrats, nineteen, eighty eight! So even and all of us and was evenly divided. Even the late nineteenth eighties and from that point for it just it was but a perch. All the Democrats left why even churches are now why even shovels, eighty percent republican, so few fuck it sort themselves out politically, like it's really hard to be Why evangelical democrats? It ain't really hard to be an atheist republican, snuff the align their politics and their religion together, which is driven people away from religion, especially their politics, leaned, the left fattened some other things like social media taken hold and other western countries as well and yet they haven't seen the same shifter, maybe there is shifted

before the onset of this technology. I think you have you. I mean it you of the post war period in in western europe. They were secularize rapidly in the nineteen sixty to seventy weren't, so really weird like twenty or thirty years behind what was going on in western europe, but if think about what america is like we're at? You know little deed, democratic country, everything's bottom up in like these non denominational churches. I was telling you about their started by guys in basements, who have like four or five couples moments, our bible stallion of seventeen years later they get ten thousand people. That's that's. How am I Religion is changing its not top down. We gotta go divinity school rank discrimination. Whether all this work is a guy starting something and europe roses, based more often on facebook or instagram or tik tok. That's where he grosses his congregation can any of the show away from religion in a particular way from religious institutions be laid at the feet of religious leaders themselves, for example the catholic church scandal.

I didn't have any bearing on people's views of religion in amerika. You think, or not it s really hard to parse, because we ve actually ask me questions. I do you think children are more likely to be abused in religious cod. Ex verses in a normal, really like school or preschool in Oregon, nautilus context and people are even divide on that question. You know so what I think about that. As you know the catheter to itself no favours by how it handled the sex abuse no, but it's really hard to test the theory that if that never happened, if they would still be in a worse spot or a better spot than they are right now, I think for a lot of catholics that we're already slipping away for mass anyway, easy way to have a dinner car along. I'm catherine, I don't go anymore. Why? Well, because the pedophilia scandal, ok, next conversation, writes a good way to kind of like pivot to the next thing. Now that I'm not downplaying abuse at all. Don't don't miss misunderstand me like a it's all, what happened in the cover ups even worse in many ways, but I think for life people that use that as an easy way to bat away a question when they don't want to get to the real thing about how they feel about god and Jesus and religion and all that stuff.

Archer denominations facing more it's than others and asked the question, because I wonder if there's some connectivity between the idea that as america becomes in some ways, more socially liberal denominations that route that advocate for conservatism, both in how families restructured and other things abortion same sex marriage. Those two things does not have an effect on the exit or is not relevant. So what's really interesting is that the traditional doing the best in america is evangelicalism on ism, under their probably more evangelicals in american anymore, the nineteen seventies there still twenty two percent of america I'm. So there is still doing wrong tivoli well compared to the main line was I just told you about likely. Niger cries episcopal rules, the eel, seeing these are traditions in our pro algae bt. Q programming pastors collective centre, poetic they're the ones in absolute freefall, they lost the main in nineteen. Seventy five was thirty. One percent of america today to ten percent of america is private. Me five percent of american.

In the next ten years to the average mainland process over sixty years old, their dying off rapidly so should a liberal religious traditions in america they're doing the worst and most concerned If traditions in america are doing the best, which is kind, goes against what you would think, as as our societies change become more liberalized on fusion research to do well, but they're not doing well right. You have an explanation for that This is like the million dollar question that can happen in the field. I I work in is like. Why is the mainline not catching some cast offs from evangelicalism, who are liberal, socially liberal? Let's say: for a lot of it is it's. A lot will go. This is a social club. The main line It's not really making us joining hard, hard religion, as well, because it makes really hard to leave you build tall walls around yourselves right. You create your little enclaves. I guess what joggled in a really good job of cranes, don't subculture with it he rose. That's all celebrities in its own media is so it's really hard to leave. That sort of like warm embrace of evangelical ism. The main I never do, They were always one half in the world and one half not in for a lot

mainlanders go and take one step this way and not have to go to church every sunday morning and that's good because I can sleep in so I'll. Just I'll just step out the citizens at the outset, when I was asking you about conditions in how you define religiosity new, said the three bees behaviour, belief and belonging correct, in this regard with respect, evangelicals or other groups are more successful in retaining members new rank those three in order of importance. Oh, I think that belonging is easily the most important from social science for spend the next behavior and then last belief, yeah. I I actually care the least about will have at it as a social scientist. I care about believe the absolute least I think belonging is easily the most important, and why is that? Because because religion is about commuting, yeah. I think religion has become a cultural and political marker in twenty four century amount it's more about like where you put yourself in social space like who, who am I HU I guessed, and so you know, if you look like measures, ok I'll, give you good example we're seeing,

a rise in the share of catholics who self identifies evangelical we're seeing a rise in the share of muslims who self identifies evangelical induce yourself identifies evangelical surveys in its It's like that would just be a mistake. Write a survey mistake they clicked the wrong button. But if you look at the data, what you see is, is consistently among people who are conservative or republican who say I'm an even jelly. Because the word evangelical now has a political and cultural moniker. More than a religious or theological because of their singer even job, because I dont like abortion or gay marriage or transgender That's why they're evangelical, not because they believe in Jesus Christ. there's something you mentioned. The atheists are very politically active and vote high proportions, but among the people who consider themselves to be religious in america attorney trends with a spectre. votes, the most or the least, so it it runs upon actually runs demographics more than it runs on religion. So, if you look at the groups that are the most highly educated, so instead, for instance, like jews are very highly educated, so are muslims or hindus, they are

the very high rates. The issue, though, with those groups, as their very small like about two percent americans and serbia's identifies jewish and one percent identify muzzle anymore, are they saints their want of amerika, the villa crazy, but they only really impact of the election and in one state and that you talk so most groups white. Christianity. Still predominant in america Christianity still a plurality of religion in united states even today, so they still hold a ton of sway at the nash level electoral politics is there a war religion there's always been a war on religion. In and even jobs invite that worth like that's what makes them thrive a group and in an evangelical church, where you heard every single day that, like or under attack in that's enough, that's good that major she living out your faith, and I heard the time growing up religion grows the most ones being persecuted. So what evangelicals do is look for evidence of persecution and throat. Log on the fire to make their face grow. So I think evangelicals are always looking for. Oh, I dunno it actually exist or not, but I think it actually serves both sides very well that there are various

scene or a imagined war on religion. so maybe that's part of the answer to the next question. I'm gonna ask you, because I I for the life of me, don't understand! I know a lot of experts don't, but I'm not even an expert, I'm a lay person, but I follow politics. How can it be that the republican party national remains in many people's eyes and beliefs, the party of religion and religiosity when their standard bearer who has something like eighty or ninety percent support among evangelicals is, Perhaps the least religious president we ve had but sir Leon generations went on and any of these metrics. You mentioned before behaviour, belief and belonging he's. Nowhere on the map explained that professor okay, well I'm guessing fact: first not

russia is going to church the most during his time in the white house, going back to Jimmy carter, which was bush presence, but the most religiously active what you think, obama nope, not even close bush nope, go about going back to carter you're going back. Are which present has been the most gonna church, the most with the most frequency, while I whitehouse its biden by a long shot don't him ass a hundred times so far in its first two years, only went to church eighty two times in four years as president, since you know numbers at the top, your head? How many times a trump trumbo like it was less than ten obama nine. I know that for a fact, or than obama one more now he didn't go He he's like a classic mainline protestant which is like I. I say I'm a mailer, but I don't go to church, hardly ever like that's the classic main liner, trumpet and garlett. Although I thought it was really interesting to Biden with that, they went back to the your dodging the question, sir. I am dodging the question, so I think it in the day that evangelicals care about power, and if you ask an average evangelical, would they prefer

and it was in own evangel like a route. Very religious, very devout evangelical, they would say yes, but if the choices feel even job who got nothing done, which they would say, George w bush, the class example of an image all who have nothing done for them or so who was not even job but got something done for them tangibly. They would pick option to every day of the week and you know that like drop like as a person, and I think many even shovels really do like what he's item no some, but but at the inner ear. Of their their voting based on what their plight? agenda may be? And if Europe even jellicoe, who is your home life, then in your community, their whole lives have been against abortion. I was he trump is gonna, be a standard bearer because its due to his appointment to the supreme court that the right to abortion has been taken away at a fair assessment Tromp has made more progress fer. You know the evangelicals in any present the last fifty years and they want a reward, and it doesn't matter that he did he's not a billboard for religion

they would say is that were saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of babies every year in america and that's more important personal morality, one of one guy where'd. You see these trends going. In other words, Are we continuing with a shift, or will there be some disrupt? of these shifts? How do you think we're gonna be talking about this in ten fifteen twenty thirty years? It's really interesting that if you look at the data, you see that that the curve for the the religious people a sort of levelled off amongst the youngest people around forty five percent. I don't think we're in. It's your future at least the next twenty years. Where you know forty five fifty percent of americans are are nonreligious. I think it's going to stick around forty five and not go up from there, but I think what see a sort of a religious polarization without political polarization all the time. I think religious polarization is happening even more in europe. the army seeing some evidence of that, for instance, up in Michigan there was a situation with their time, a book bans and the local library, and it was even jail. speaking in order to ban these books, about transgendered elsie, be to you and all that kind of stuff, but they were, they were locked in arms with

servant of muslims at the podium. To argue for these may need these books I removed from the public school. So I think we're going to see as conservative religious groups are going to understand that a lot divides them. Theologically like what god, they pray to they believe, but their united, these cultural issues, arms and work together, knowing their comprising more successful working in tandem, other side of the ilo is gonna, be a lot of non religious people who what religion in a completely out of the public? where in every possible way, so it's really can be in touch really conservative very far right people on one side and a whole bunch of the other side, and not very many americans in the middle of those two false I'll be right back with rhine berge. After this, The support for the show comes from into the mix, a ben and jerry's podcast about joy and justice, produced with VOX creative in April, two thousand and twenty

read? The grassy narrows first nation celebrated the monumental victory by order of the canadian government. No logging companies may enter their territory without permission. Chrissy Isaacs was one of the organizers who made this point it all started one cold december night in two thousand to when she and other indigenous people glock the only road leading into their territory more than twenty years later, that blockade is still ongoing for chrissy. This wasn't just about forcing one of the largest logging companies in the world to forfeit its licence to log the area it was about her. Link after generations of mercury poisoning and environmental exploitation and ultimately about reunifying a community to protect their ancestral lance here that story and the latest episode of into the mix subscribed now support for its shell comes from visible wireless other wireless carriers use,

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the. So, as I mentioned, you're, not just an academic and and a teacher professor you're also pastor, so you're, not If I can further frazier an agnostic about these issues, are you you cover them at some remove? How do you feel about these trends and overall, is it harmful to society but to society net neutral, doesn't matter list, I think religions and positive society, but I dont think all of religious. I think that the tribalism, the belonging peace we just talked about, I think, is actually the worse potter, religion and through it our religion? We talk about anymore. If you look at the social science data on religious attendance, it provides all kinds of positive benefits to society and a people psychologically. Socially either the more you but a church more likely already politically engaged so getting involved in one thing, get you involve many things. Could you build these bridges or other people, and so

It worries me that were becoming more out of socially itemised were not hanging out. Other people were not mixing in may company anymore, weatherby, racially religiously, politically, economically, educationally, I think that's one of the reasons why we're so suspicious of the country where the people by we ve lost trust in our fellow, mainly because we don't hang out any anyone is different than us anymore, religion. In america was used to be one of the very few places inside where you could see. People who are different- and you were there is if we are to give you a written- that not? That long ago, if you sat down at a mass of catholic church, You were just as likely to be sitting next to a democrat as republican, yet right, yeah now it's coming. But why after sixty percent republicans our continuing the trend of the right, I mean every religion. Every white religion, especially america's, become overwhelmingly conservative, and that's that bad, so used the cases of, if I understand this, it used to be the case that even if you went to a church, then a denomination right which, by definition you would theirs, where diversity, the clean, otherwise in that country

nation than there is now absolutely I mean now we're monocultures, it's all conserving and the public promise it's left and right too, by the way go to the episcopal church. It's going to be almost all democrats and liberals go to southern baptists can be almost concerning republicans. there's not love its echo chamber skin, and that's that bad for democracy. I think we don't What religion going away is bad and in some ways, but for democracy. I think it's really bad, because where else do you see people who are different than you- and this may be an unfair question, but is that the job of religion to help democracy flourish as a social scientist, I would say yes, I would say that religion has many I've thought about it before it is it's an odd thing, because we talk in this country, but the separation of church and state you already earlier. I thought was very wise comment when explaining the trends in other countries that the easiest way thank you to have someone dislike something is mandated by the government and yet their people want a mandate or or allow much more blur

between government and religion, belief talk about in one direction: right, interference, imposition of religion by government. Is there any downside to suggesting? I don't think there is, but I just want to flesh it out in advocating for a role that religion might play in the flourishing of democracy. I note asked at a slightly different way: yeah. Well yeah, I'm okay, so he here here's my thing: I don't think we realize that that religion has provided a social safety net in america. for hundreds of years. You know closed clauses, food entries suit kitchens, all that stuff in some it's back by the garments. So it's not so it's done independently, but here's here's the problem I have with that. Religion goes away. Is government step into those cracks and filled avoids? Are those kids most people? fringe deciding to follow those cracks and be worse off for it. We do not have any there's no appetite

America, for increasing the social safety net. We seen that over the last ten or fifteen years. So if that's not being increase in religion continues to decrease, then than what is going to happen to the people who need help who's gonna help them, I'm worried about those people. Yet you you talk about the corrosive nests of politically of political uniformity in churches. You, you ve written quote when religion becomes a poet uniform. It can have corrosive effects on democracy and then further, you say: the conservatism of white christian churches has helped to lead tens of millions of liberal americans to leave religion behind entirely. Enjoying the ever increasing ranks of the non religious end quote, if not entirely fair. I think it's mostly true I think a lot of I think a lot of people I went to college with. I would do a christian college to where we go to chapel three times a week and follow a lifestyle saying we couldn't drink and swear and have sex and all these kind of things Most of my friends, why would a college with our nonreligious now and is because

their letter sinner politically, is at the same principle return, but before the sort of required obligatory religion causes some subset of people to walk away from it, I think so they for a lot of those kids that grow up pastors kids are missionary kids and they had no choice in the matter. You know what I mean another like wait: a minute, I don't believe any of this stuff. Can I just say lay my big argument for religion is not theological like? I don't think the owl convinces anyone of any like theirs is great slaughter. the belief for exactly it's not about philip. As you said. No one becomes a christian. Could they lost the argument to me it doesnt work it out. You know the reason the people, join religious communities because the community part I passed. I need to focus as much on the horizontal as they do. The vertical, like the the community park, is really really important not just to the church, but also to the community like if you can build bridges to people and help them out like you are not only doing good things for your your, faith in your church. We also doing good things where community in your world, like, let's think about that, a little bit more. I agree with, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It's a little it. As with the other point you ve been making.

which is that one religion becomes mostly about community inaccurate, becomes non diverse, because people walk away were of different opinions and views on other things then the net silo community that religious is not in their positive right. Have you square the downsides of religion being about community, mostly with the upsides of community coming as part of religion? Yeah? That's that's! The inherent tension here is: most churches want to be They want to be monocultures, it's easier when it's all the same kind, we believe the same kind of things and airlines unanimous in all the meetings to vote. Yes on our environment, all in one accord, but the thing is like in situ: You're supposed to be diverse in religion best when it is the most diverse, but you have to go to fight the urge to only recruit. People were like you because that's what how you grow religion like if you look at these, look at joel osteen, I know we get our jealous. You know you're, not the money in the prosperity, gospel and stuff. But if you look at this,

aggregation, its religious, its racially diverse it economically, diversify! Educationally diverse cause, they been intentional by doing that stuff, most searches dont think about that. They want to become all wearing a white higher mean a higher income educated people that that's bad like this fight that desire in it. If you become too much that's hard, listen if you walk in a church is about if you're wearing, suits and driving in a range rovers, and you drive a beat up dodge you're, not going to come back anymore. How do you fight that? You know? That's not easy we'll certain trends. Irreversible. Certain trends are hard to reverse. And towards sailing in Segregation and balkanization is very hard to reverse. I do how do we do that? I think you ought to be intentional about finding people their different, that you may start here's what I think we start a second service or may so he let the problem I see is if you look at the day of the people who are the most likely go to church today, are people with four year Degrees, making between sixty thousand third thousand hours a year now? Ok, That is who is in charge right now, as upper middle class people with college degrees, that's who showing up for

in ways to reach out to be will have to work on sunday morning or saturday. Night have amid weak service. Haven't you know, tuesday night serves have a monday afternoon sir find ways to be more amenable, but also get away give stuff away so thick create like carnivals right back the school bash a big fan. I am not agnostic on carnival some very pro carnival. I'm pro me, I'm pro potluck. Okay, that's my plan. I am I'm a baptist in, and the people in your community can cook well. Well, listen! I grew up In my wife's catholic, when we got married, I go listen when you go to potluck, don't bring your like your jv dish, bring your varsity dish. Alright, the thing you know the best thing you can make it always wanna go, do the same thing: don't try something new out, bring your best and may a pilot we'd have more potluck, in america. That would change. A lot of things are people who I dunno fires, religious and other pollsters effect, but if people who had edifying religious happier than people who don't or not, generally speaking, yes of that- but you know- that's always self report stuff right in parliament's tied up with the idea

liberal liberals in america, there's a there's, a mental health crisis in america, special monks, liberal. They catastrophes lots of things, job hatred about this before, for instance, that are much more likely to seek mental health services. Now that doesn't mean that concerns don't need mental health services, don't seek it out. But if you look at the polling data, I know it does look like the religious people tend to be more content and more more. Happy and have better mental health of people who are not religious. We certainly but what's the current pulling understanding of the trend with respect to tolerance. We ve talked about this on his past and its problem. There's this arising anti semitism is rising. Certain kinds of bigotry in the country in the current moment are we trending towards less tolerance of other people's religious beliefs and behaviors or more so by moving in the direction of less tolerance. Unfortunately, my very first pay by republish was on tolerance. Actually in religious intolerance and what I felt was super interesting, which is the idea that people who believe the bible

was literally true are less tolerant because it makes it If I'm right than you're wrong in. Why should I? Why should I tolerate wrongness and sinfulness that make sense? But you know who the was taller people the people with the church every week, because they built those bridges to people who are different in there. Wait so hold on a second yeah, because I, like your taxonomy behaviour, belief and belonging. The people who had the most belief, release, tolerant and people who had the most religious behaviour, in other words, going to church for the most hard exactly right is at intuitive Mister Harding must social science z like nothing's, and do it because my internet and I want to try to keep this as a sort of intellectual. Conversation to not get into it. Will it is doctrine cause? I'm no expert in any of this, but my My sense has been always the Jesus was pre, tolerant, fellow well, he did say if you ve pretty into are things right. He says I'm gonna put I'm gonna put brother against brother and sister against mother and all those kinds of things to write like there's some anger.

Aid. For the gospel, that's pretty that's pretty divisive if you really want to get down to it right on the way. The life no one gets to the father, except through me, does not sound very tolerant, for I come from sounds like there's a pretty narrow way to get to Heaven. So there's both I mean that's the thing about the goss so I wrote a paper in college about Jesus like he's like smoke, you tried it. You try to figure out what it looks like a cloud and try to figure what it looks like. It looks like something else in five minutes you can kind of read into whatever you want to see him go back to politics for a moment. How do you think religious themes are going to play out in twenty four presidential election and how our religious such when she's gonna turn out or not turn out. So I think Obviously, evangelicals are or to maternal crazy for trump. percent of them voted for him in two thousand, sixteen anti them. Wanting, but also eighty percent voted for mccain in two thousand and eight. Let's not forget that part. Okay, like they're they're, diehard Republicans and we're going to see white catholics. Again more towards republican? They were fifty five percent under sixty percent for fur trump, and I think there are go even above that in twenty twenty four I think we're there.

Elections. One in lost is that nothing in particular group. I was just telling you about either twenty four percent of americans. Now they don't engage in politics very much, but in what you have sixteen, only fifty five percent of them voted for Clinton, so they were not huge democrats. They turned out There are four buying into thousand twenty got. Sixty four percent pursue their votes buying I do that well again with that group and to get the maternal That's an if citizens. In fact, I do not know why the surge as between two sixteen and twenty twenty. Yes, I think In particular, I thought they like tromp, because he he said like I'm, I'm an outsider like you are in nothing in particular. Select their outsiders like no one speaks for, though no one thinks about them, no one's in its you know. No one really looks it and troubles like I'm. Gonna drained the swamp, I'm gonna! U no reform washington what they realized for years later was he was just like every other politician. He did not drain the swamp in a. He was a bureaucrat just like everyone else, and so they went back to They voted for Biden at the same, only voted for obama in two thousand twelve, nothing in particular stay because they realize

were generally democrats. We got we're gonna of duped in twenty. Sixteen by the trump thing. We're not gonna, get duped again. You talk about some other trends on the state level, and there's some states where religion. city defining a high defined. Is increasing in other places. Where is decreasing, that has a parallel political effect, where its increasing that's good news for republicans running for office, and the opposite is true, of course, well and the particulars tat? I was struck by the rules it had known at this level of detail was florida and how What a once upon a time, I think people photos of purple state strictly silly red state and part of that. I think you attribute tribute to the greece in religiosity and religious affiliation, and you talk in particular about the huge gap of the last night. New years in miami dade. Can you explain that? Yes, so miami county, really you a democratic throughout the score miami?

hey cars are going to lose the rural parts of florida. Like that's the game idea, the only hope of winning florida is to crush it in miami dade right for them got yeah. You gotta build up a hugely cause, you're going to once you get to the panhandle you're gonna get killed like that's, basically how it works politically, but the data's become a lot more religious over the last ten years and that's especially, I think, with catholics, hispanic catholics and they are culturally conservative like they don't they're, not they don't get a lot of cubans to away right, which is no cultural, canals and cuban all of those together, and so what happened was by did a lot worse in miami dated twenty twenty. I think a lot of his cause. Miami dade got a lot more religious or ten years, the places for using it is the southern border of texas. If you look at well there's always weird stories about like little counties like starr, county maverick county, which are like on the southern border and Rio Grande valley, where they went like thirty or forty points they swung thirty or forty points and was to election cycles, fuel their religiosity, so those kinds became thirty percent, more religious between twenty, ten and twenty twenty. So well

growing. It helps the republicans I dont think text is turning blue at any point the near future because of how the influx of hispanic catholics, who tend to be culturally conservative right, I think Democrats. What would you do with it? Did the people whose Democrats have able spot on. This are correct, because tickly Democrats think that the lahti no vote, this ban vote is theirs for that working, and they they misunderstand tell if you agree, if you agree with his criticism of of Democrats vision, they misunderstand the roller religion plays in certain of these communities. I think that they have such a cultural blind spot, because they don't talk about I did an analysis of the tweets of our democratic primary candidates in that in two thousand and twenty they didn't talk about Jesus at all what is more, they talk about christianity under twitter accounts like guy what is it. That is the reason for that. Also because you don't wanna, because because if you know, maybe you can some some political advice on the data analysis you ve done so extensively, but if about of your base is non religious and arguably assertively, so

does it make sense, arguably not at all about Jesus in religion too much listen. Atheist are not going to vote for donald trump. it's, not what you're saying- and this is a thing that political experts- but over time Careful have taken constituencies for granted like black americans that isn't it we ve been having followed up. Are you sort of saying, professor, that Democrats can take atheists for granted. I don't think they look for grab, but I also think you shouldn't be allergic talking about Jesus in the bible, christianity, there you know, like I, there's ways to do both in do them well, angle, vomited, very good. It can arise, ride between those two things are not being you don't not acting You are, but also not act like super evangelical at the same time. But if you look at the ascent, vote like on things like trained gender like they're, not on board, with democratic orthodoxy, on on issues of french and they're. Just not. If you look at the pulling, honest. If you look at same sex marriage, it's amazing how fast that issue moved from opposed to in favour. I mean we're talking ten percent in vain

Or nineteen eighty eight to sixty five percent in favour today again move that fast it in a movie, as always in one direction, which is towards the left on that. If you look at transgender pulling its actually go on the other direction, the last two years people are or less I could say there are more than two general today there were two years ago, so you you can't push that she would hispanic catholic, though the black possible. They are not going to respond to that you gotta, be you can tell by algae he q and inclusiveness and all those things. But there are certain issues that the public is not ready to follow your and we talked about the freely quick adoption in support of same sex. Marriage on the package before in, and you just mentioned it obviously again. What's the reason for that, because other civil rights in humanitarian victories in the country, we all know basin, tragic experience, particular longer Why is it that that was so fast? I think its social contact theory, which is this really well studied ideas, social science, which is, if you know someone of like an out group, your much more tolerant of that group

You don't like. I don't know any muslims, it's easy to not like muslims, because just an abstract idea right like out that muslims or is a concept, but if work with a guy and he's a muslim he's, a good dude works hard. You know cares about it. We carry on. I'm very glad. You know. Muslims are so back. Is that guy's not so bad when, when a few people, we're coming out, then that gave permission for more more people to come out and in more and more people came out was also impossible to not know someone who was gay. It is easiest. You know, gave you should get married? You don't know any gay people were now you almost as to know someone who's gay and go. You know what steve's a good dude if he wants to marry his boyfriend. That's totally fine with me and I think that's how it changed. fast. Everyone got really comfort with. It is a new, so they loved. He was gay. You ve written a lot on these topics, not just online line, but also in books. Lasher wrote a book called twenty myths about religion and politics in america where some your your favorite myths, that you debunked oh yeah one is the trump was not the favourite of church going wrong. Looking during the primary process, we ve already rebutted that yet Alan's garbage trump. What everybody you want, every it

All except those are to attend and more than once a week, and he only ass my six points to cruise so here wasn't a yeah, so I can sort of understand your argument now that you know based before your record in office, in which, among other things, trump appointed superman derivative ultraconservative, sprinkle justices, enroll, was overturned than on that track record. He is delivered for a certain subset of religious people, evangelicals included, but in the primary when I think he was reliably reported that prior times in his life was actually pro choice. Given to Democrats both the basis on which evangelicals and deeply religious people trusted trump back then. yeah, that's actually another method. The book is even jellicoe. Think abortions, like the number one issue for them politically If you ask them even tell you that it's not like only twenty five percent of I even joke and say abortions, a dealbreaker for them as a candidate like they would. They would only vote for a candidate who is anti abortion, so it's not a deal breaker

I think in the data she says, as immigration is just as important issue as abortion is amongst wide evangelicals right and has a do with religious belief as just a political belief. Oh it's the others. I mean immigrate and there's there's. There's very little discussion the culture wars, not about immigration right, it that's more of a political belief, a cultural thing, a racial thing. That is a religious thing. I have another myth Gosh there are so many. You know, for instance, that pastors talk a lot about politics from the pulpit yeah. That's when you hear a lot from the left especially see the blast. on social me you'll find one example of a pastor being super political for the pulpit. there was a look at all these evangelical churches, their basic political rallies people who say that have not gone to avenge awful church very much. We asked people weekly churchgoers. We asked him. Ok, here's ten issues the boxes of which one you're pastors talked about in the last twelve months, and it was everything from healthcare at immigration to abortion to even voting the number one response option was none of the above thirty

percent said they not heard a single political issue from the pulpit in the last twelve months in fifty two percent said zero or one political issue from the pulpit in the last twelve months most Asters do not talk about politics in the pulpit, because there's no advantage for them doing that. Will you talk about it from the pulpit Jesus, told us to love and forgive tried, we better neighbours, better friends that we should try to be better work of ourselves. You know kind of self improvement, but but our politics- oh good, gracious. No, am I avoid that, gonna change, anybody's mine on politics. These are seventy five year old people they indeed they watch politics. You know six eight hours a day, I'm not gonna change their mind and twenty minutes on sunday morning, don't we about the younger generation, millennials Genji, who are incurred, finally identifying as nonreligious her or not anything, in particular in your studies, overtime What's the trend of young people being on religious converting to religiosity later in life, is there some significant trend line

speaking over time in that direction, or once you decided by the time you in your twenties in our the affiliated or your agnostic, you remain that way until the end. So this really convincing paper. The came out last week that I just read that said that the reason we're becoming less religious is because children What raised in less religious households right so actually religious religion transfers very well from generation to generation. Like that's, really work, you know that's how most religion hangs around, but the problem is more people are non religious. Their brazen, their kids and nonreligious, and they never really pick up religion as they go along. You know. I don't talk about religion that much publicly except the one. The only time that a heavily only context which I have is to talk, from time to time. The religious diversity among house an event into an area that something very fraught which is to make a joke involving religion, you'll be very careful about that. But I would tell the following and he got a good reaction, shall I share it with you and you tell me what you think I I would love to rate your joke great. I never told this joke to an actual pastor before

oh gosh, and I would say that in my house there's a lot of diversity of religion. This is all true and religious tradition, my children at the time I was telling these stories had one hindu grandparent, one seek grandparent one muslim grandparent in one jewish grandparent, which I think I'm doing. The math correctly makes them episcopalian That's pretty good pray, dont, really good right I'll, give you a solid, a minus on that was mine. That was not actually be dear. Wrote that eroto took all my self because the a surprisingly good reaction, so we have all true that's credibly, religiously, diverse household by the way home. It's like that. Isn't sanely diverse in a line of amazing It's kind of amazing that it's taken, fuck that religion on the show cause? It's fastening to me, I'd like to have you back and talk more about these issues in these trends, It surprises me how little we talk about these things in the public square. I guess we do a little bit of the polling and the political stuff

in an election season. But it is trends and and what it means for people in how complication if changing and how they're becoming less divert all these things that you think about and talk about, I think, are very important. So thank you for your work and thanks for being on the show, been an absolute pleasure. Great, really appreciate it by congress, with ryan burch continues from members of the cafe insider community bonus for insiders. We discuss how classrooms are being impacted by chachi P, one of my students had written several other papers for me, so I knew their riding style fairly well and then they earned in a final paper for a class in writing style, for that paper was completely different library role now much much better yes, well much better, much better job in there using terms and ideas that I knew that I had not taught them that they probably didn't learn on their own to try out the member,

if, for just one dollar for a month at the capitol come slash inside again, that's carried out come slash, insider every week I end the show urging you ought to send your questions, comments and thoughts to me and our team here, a cafe and somebody I think we don't see them, but every week we read all those messages there. times when your emails move us so much that I just that share them with all of you other times the lesser email cracks us up, and this is one of those times So I want to read you this message we received last week in response to a comment made during my kind station will truck Rosenberg on stay tuned, to refresh your memory, can. I were discussing the reasons to appoint a special council. In a case when chuck said all my friends at main justice are going to hate me for this.

but there is a salutary benefit and then he said are all benefit salutary to which I responded. Yes, There is a chance that say non bread is redundant and what I meant by that was non and a n is a type of indian bread and, by definition not his bread, so it's redundant when people go to restaurants or the talk about food, even in indian cuisine and say non bread. That's what I meant so our listener joy Had this to say in response to my change, chuck quote preach. It took me in of restless sleeping trying to figure out what in the world is redundant about non bread, spelled n, o n dash bread. and then twenty minutes of googling the next day to figure. You said: non bread and ate and bread it stuck with me. The list goes on to say I listened to you say like twenty times thinking he can't be saying

on bread and owen what's redundant about not bread, but no, you were, but why why why? Even if it were redundant, would he pick that redundancy to complain? and I was going through hell trying to make non bread redundant. I couldn't so at five. A m I cooled is on bread redundant than english grammar colin is non bread redundant and, finally, what the redundant about non bread. I thought I was Some cultural reference, like some tv, show everyone watches that you ve never heard of just then, or the sum on bread. Revolution was going on. I was unaware of. Finally, thank god. Google asked me: did you mean non bread and a and bread? I almost cried naan bread, naan bread. Of course you said naan bread. Now I feel culturally. sensitive and I'm dealing with that. I love you but I've lost a data have never get back and all because I'm culturally incense which I didn't know, but the google I can tell you as a whole

hell of a lot to say about thanks and your may go too far ass, because your reasonable, when you not calling me culturally insensitive in this crazy world. I feel I must add the obvious. I'm just kidding love your show. Please keep them coming. End quote thanks Jeff for your email and your message, I can tell you that you have the entire team here cafe, as they say, Ella willing will that's it for this so to stay tuned thanks again to my guest, rhine berge. If you like what we do rate review, the show one apple pie or wherever you listen, every positive review new listeners find the show. Send me your question about news politics and justice tweet them to me at freedom

are with the hashtag asked preach. You can also now reach me on threats. Or you can call me a message at six: nine to four seven, seven, three, three, eight that six six nine to four, freak great, you can send an email to letters. Cathay dotcom, stay tuned is presented, by cafe and the vocs media podcast network. The executive producer is tomorrow, suffer the technical director is David tat, ashore, the senior producers or adam waller, in Matthew, Billy and the cafe team is no ours ally, David Kerr, lander, nat, wiener, Jake, kaplan number to sean and Claudio Hernandez. Our music is by andrew dost. I'm your host preet bharara stay tuned. Support, for this show comes from the national women's law centre. Without strong advocates for gender justice

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