From CAFE and the VOX media. Podcast network welcome to stay tuned. I'm Preet Bharara the people who support them. They don't even have the excuse that he concealed his real self from them. He made it clear who and why he was, and if you supported Trump you did it knowing all of those things and that that was a tough thing for those who did not support Donald Trump to face about so many of their fellow countrymen and women. That's David from he's a staff writer at the Atlantic from has been a I and conservative politics for years he once served, speech writer for president which W Bush from is the author of ten books, most of which explore the evolution of the american conservative movement. His latest called from polyps. Restoring american democracy, Doc the evolution of the Republican Party during the Trump years

returns to the show to discuss the war in Ukraine. The power of can No internet celebrities like Marjorie green and whether Trump can make a political comeback? That's coming up stay tuned. hey listeners before we get into today's episode. Let's talk about Ben Jerry's, not their ice cream, but their activism Ben Jerry's, new podcast into the mix features a range of guests on how they use their creativity to drive real change, host, Ashley C Ford system with musicians. Patti Smith, comic book writer, Andrew I did New Orleans, queen of bounce music, big freedia and others to talk about how they work realize a better world into the mix check out the podcast now or after you. Listen to this show

today show was brought to you by. Are you sleeping a new podcast from the sleep experts at mattress, firm produced by VOX creative people are exhausted. We need more rest for so many people. Getting the sleep we need is no easy task, but what if we can change that? are you sleeping is diving into some of the most fascinating real life. Sleep stories you ve ever heard, maybe listening to someone else's struggle, could help your own check out the first episode of our you sleeping and subscribe. Now, listen to our you sleeping wherever you get your part cast. Before I get your questions, I want to mention something the video of our full stay tuned live, show that took place last week featuring conversation with Ben Stiller Garry Kasparov, and I was intervention is now. illegal at cafe. I come from members of Cathy Insider

look you want to try to membership for just one dollar four. The first month can do so a cafe. I come slash insider now. Let's get to your questions, question, comes from our old friend Walter Shop, who, once upon a time, was the direct the office of government ethics. Actually, it's less of a question than a request. Walter rights Pre, Congress is holding a hearing on a congressional stock ban. This Thursday it would be, wait if you mentioned that for folks, it's ridiculous. This is even a debate. Now Walter. I don't agree on everything, but on this we are absolutely on this hey page. This is an issue that I've written about have spoken about, and I've tweeted about on a number of occasions. I find it to be remarkable There's no prohibition on individual members of Congress being able to hold and trade buy and sell individual stocks

even though members of Congress, both in the House and the Senate, have broad ability to affect markets. I inside information. I think it diminishes trust in kinds of things that they vote on the kinds of hearings that they have and the kinds of legislation that they propose and the kinds of influence that lobbying forces have, if are allowed to trade. Visual stocks, as that mentioned many times before such bands are normal and commonplace among financial analysts, financial reporters law firms. Trading firms. In fact, as that mentioned also, I haven't in any individual stock in many many years, because even as a junior, staffer and I Senate on the Judiciary Committee. I felt kind of uncomfortable, owning and trading individual stocks, given the portfolio of work that I had and members. I work for had so I, along with a bipartisan majority of Americans. It's some sort of stock ban for members of Congress is in order. I think this hearing is long overdue.

happy the representative laughter and is holding this hearing Thursday April. Seventh, as representative Lofgren said in a statement quote, the committee will hold a public hearing to examine proposed stock trading reforms for Congress with a panel of stakeholders and experts to be announced in the coming weeks and quote now, I happen to be a number of proposals on the table. They vary in popularity and a little bit in substance, one that I've written about before is by Senator John US off and more Kelly. It's called the banking national Stock Trading ACT and it would are all members of Congress, their spouses and dependent children to place their stock portfolios in a blind trust? There's another computer proposal from senators, Elizabeth Warren and Steve Daines who's a republican They have introduced a bipartisan ban on congressional Stock Ownership ACT, which is a little bit more stringent than even the US off Kelly Bill? The war endangered? would ban lawmakers and their spouses from owning or trading individual stocks. They would only be allowed

don't stocks through broad exchange, traded funds or mutual once and so, whereas, on the one hand, the US off Kelly Bill would require long because in their spouses to give up control of any stocks by putting them in a blind trust, the Warren Danes Bill would make lawmakers sell off their stocks altogether importantly in my mind, both bills reach the issue of spousal ownership of stock. Now, open question as to whether any of these bills will garner enough broad based bipartisan support to get paid. In the Senate and the house, but I hope they will This question comes in a tweet from Marcus who asks is there enough time to thoroughly investigate and prosecute all the participants in January Sixth, right up to the top before the next presidential election hash Ask pre no mark, as you raise a very, very important issue that permeates all press infusions and investigations, but the kind

prosecution investigation, you're talking about it's even a bigger issue, and that is the question of the clock. Ordinarily, in garden, variety investigations and prosecutions. There's always some focus on the clock. Often that's true because of the statue of limitations, only a prescribed period of time in which you can hold, someone accountable for an act that violates a statute, ticking clock is also relevant. Ongoing harm, that's happening or does someone who's a fugitive, and you want to bring to justice and incapacitate before they do injustice and harm to other folks, The clock is also an important consideration because, as time passes witnessed Memories fade documents, get lost, people get coached, all sorts of problematic things happen, The clock ticks, but in certain kinds of politically fraught investigations and attempts to hold folks accountable, What is a book slightly different nature? So one. The main issues relating to the clock has,

in the January six committee, and whether or not it can get it's work done not by twenty twenty four and the next presidential election, but by the end of two thousand and twenty two in the mid elections. That's why I think the committee has strategically decided to do certain things and not too certain things. example. The committee has reportedly decided that it will not to issue subpoenas to fellow members, Congress, if they were involved in the big lie and even there were involved in some way in the activities of January. Sixth, that's in part, in my view, because it's already April subpoenas will be fought tooth and nail in a might be, fraction At the end of the day, the Republicans take over the house that castigation will be brought to a close, then they're, focusing your energy and their time on the things that they can get done before the midterm election. That you asked about investigating in Prosser people before the presidential election of twenty twenty four that two and a half years away It's been some debate and question about what d o is doing, how much effort there

to bear on the immediate orbit around Donald Trump and upon Donald Trump himself. My view is the act with alacrity and focus and they is all the resources they have brought to bear so far that if there's case to be made against someone in connection with January. Sixth, that's doable, shooting the charges can be brought. Depends on how long a particular judge will decide a trial, taken when the trial can be set. But my view is is going to be a case and if there's going to be a trial against anybody up to and including the former president that can be accomplished by the time, the next president, whether it's Joe Biden or someone else, takes office, and I understand the reason for concern if Donald Trump or another Republican takes office in twenty twenty five And the Justice Department's investigation is not complete, could it be derailed? We saw that kind of thing happen. With respect to the Mueller Investigation and former attorney general bill. Barr interfere was intervened in cases relating to cronies of the president. Could that happen again? I suppose so so,

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as the EU s response to the war in Ukraine, one thing is almost certain response would look a lot different if the former president were still in office, David from a staff writer at the Atlantic. Joy may this week to discuss the impact of Russia's invasion anew s politics and how this political moment reflects where our country is headed, the David Welcome back to the show such a pleasure to return good too good to talk to you. It's been. Little over a year just before we started taping. you and I were discussing what we might discuss on the show and I've It continues to be major news in this country. And around the world what's going on in Ukraine, which I think we should. A little bit, but then you said we should talk about that, but we should

return to these shores. Why'd you say that we, the drama in Ukraine's, is this the horror to you. The sacrifices so compelling that were our attention is drawn and there's a risk of especially for those of us who spent draw, must right knowledge and domestic politics to to play amateur expert in a way that can easily overstep the band the bonds of the bounds of expertise. So I I want to focus on on the things that I know the most about him that we together know the most about, and I also think it's important that people understand that what is happening in Ukraine is the most in bloody part, but of a global struggle and that there is an american center to it and obviously the stakes the contest here has not been as as horrifying as as it is over there, but in some way the contest here will determine the outcome over there I mean if, if

Donald Trump had somehow managed to retain power after the election of of twenty twenty. This war in Ukraine would look very different. Are you surprised at how much because you're paying attention to what happens in Ukraine a minute, I think it's a common. Standing among folks here that the Americans don't care so much. goes on beyond our shores. Why is this different? so sure that Americans really do I mean I think people listen to podcast, do I think you- and I do I- I think the the policy world is focus on it. At one of the real hazards ahead is that we may be reminded very bluntly in November of two thousand and twenty two that Americans care about the price of gas. They care about the price of groceries, things that are being prices that have been inflated by the warn you Ukraine and that they pay attention. They I mean they. Obviously the Americans hate bullies American stand up for the underdog Americans like admire courage and hate.

dictators, but they also care a lot about their own lives and their then the prices they face in the act and the economic structures they go through, and it will be a big mistake if people think that Ukraine is going to be a ballot issue when he took twenty so as if you think it has no bear, on the fortunes of the Democrats or the Republicans I didn't say no bearing I think it has some. I think it's political consequence over here is it. It does alter a little bit the internal calculus inside the parties, and its primary struggles are much more the game for activists than general

in in those primaries. I think it's going to matter. I mean I think that there are republicans who have bet very heavily on Putin, being kind of a symbol and not a reality. The the end, though, that they were important inside the Republican Party, a party, I think, they're, going to discover that that's an unpopular position and that if those republicans who over invested in orbit in or bomb and Putin, because they thought Miss jokers as symbols as culture war counters, just as waste scoring points in domestic political debates, without really thinking that these is a real people with real agendas of a deeply turn violent, so I think gonna see some some consequences in places like the Ohio Senate Republican Contest, where I think you're gonna find much more traditional republican foreign policy types, getting the upper hand you're, seeing that and in in Congress, where Mitch Mcconnell and

Mccarthy. They can't quite endorse what the president is doing with their endorsing it without saying they're endorsing it. I think of the Democratic Party to I think, there's been less dramatically, but there has been a tilt in the There is a kind of weft isolationism that sometimes gained strength in the democratic world. I think it has less strength today, but when the two big parties me for the voters, who are less committed to paying all their attention to politics. I'm gas prices, inflation feeling this crime, those are going to be. The issues We talk about what effect the war Crane will have on domestic politics how Americans viewed the Democrats and Joe Biden or the Republicans. Trump know. We had a big issue some months ago that we talked about this Pakistan and we were in the country and that was the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan and it seemed like a monumental issue. Then, even a political issue, domestically, it seems to have they for memory. Do you think that the that doesn't seem to have any bearing on the mid term saw me,

something for whether not Ukraine matters. I think, double conversation that tends to go on women when, when informs like this and and and similar, we talk about the affairs of the world, and something will happen. That seems like a really important thing and and the it'll be a rejoinder, while the median voter in the median district doesn't care about this issue, and that's considered a sufficient answer. I think it's pretty evident that, especially in midterm elections that foreign policy issues, don't affect the median voter, but that doesn't mean they're, not important, and and so when you get when

when you're in a discussion and people say, while the the voter and Paducah doesn't care about it said. Well, I I don't happen to be in Paducah. I don't happen to be there, but I care- and I think it's important and I think it's going to be important to the United States and and and people want the I care about the consequences. I mean this. This war is driving food prices all over the planet. This war is driving fuel prices all over the planet, people care about the effects, and I think one of the things that we we need to give some respect for politicians, for, as voters hire politicians to deliver results, and you know, we've all had the experience where the cars making a funny noise. You you drive it to the shop and what you want is the car to come back without the funny noise, and you don't want a half an hour story about what the funny noise was and the bear and the various things that the mechanic tried to do to correct the funny noise. He won't drive the car in fix the noise reasonable

Thank you very much. I have my own job to do so. We looked at political leaders to address these concerns are most most of us do, and then there are few of us who, for whom this is a subject of attention in a way that other things are subjects for attention to other people and We care we focus and and art the point. These discussions is to help the politicians understand what to do, because politicians aren't policy experts. Politicians are specialists in important nurse. Politicians are specialists in the art of gaining public consent for public measures, and they then they they since a college, they understand people, they dont understand every conceivable issue that could arise, and so they they need. The guidance from people do care about the specific issues but is it also true, related Lee people might not be expert in the Don boss region or on the history of Ukraine?

and you know it's lineage is an independent country and all sorts of other specific issues, but to the american people care that their president looks strong it does not look weak because it does seem to be a lot of the discussion between the folks on from in the folks on Biden's. Does that matter to the american people in a general way, and I feel one of the arguments for Donald Trump was always that he was really good at posing. He did things with his chin. He did things with his hands. He did things with his chest, but of Course Donald Trump was was not a strong president. He was vain. He was needy. He was impulsive. lazy. He was physic, he was physically weak. He couldn't walk up a flight of stairs, he couldn't walk down a ramp and he entered he and he was self indulgent. He was greedy with the food and he was not a hole in one. He got a whole one recently and he was not a Rachel swim.

If he legendarily cheats at golf, and so he, but he was that he was a poser, and I think one of the things that he admired so much at Vladimir Putin was at Vladimir Putin was a who also, you know. I was also a poser and also had he had a much more controlled media, of course, so they they ramify it and then Putin said. American admirers also then amplified this image, and I, I think for presidents, it's important to deliver results, but sometimes presidents have to do very tough things. I mean we talked about Afghanistan when, when, when President Biden, I took the hard decision that he did on Afghanistan and and you can, there are a lot of micro criticisms, but the exact timing, the exact way it was done. But it's really important to us that people understand if there were thousands or more

more than ten thousand Americans in Afghanistan right now, it would be very hard for the present. I seeks to take strong line on Russia, because the way the United States sustain that commitment and gives an american troops is a very sophisticated army that there's fuel this fuel. Yeah there's fuel as ammunition, there's tons of stuff that have to get into landlocked Afghanistan, and there are really only two main routes. One is by truck through Pakistan and the others by rail through and so long as the United States had such an enormous presence in Afghanistan. It was dependent either on Pakistan or on Russia or on boat, and when people wonder you know in a bit there's a lot MIKE. The president, I wrote for George W Bush of this a lot of derision of him for the way he flattered Putin when back in the aftermath of nine Slash eleven, but the reason you did that was because

Putin's cooperation was essential to getting supplies into Afghanistan and the same thing with that win and Barack Obama went, went easy on Putin over a bunch of other corals and Syria and and and and any Ukraine in two thousand and fourteen. He had American, in fact, hostages in Afghanistan, who dependent either on Pakistan or on Russia, for road or for rail to bring supplies and by taking that tough decision in the way She did and again that you could wear micro criticisms, but but President Biden regained a freedom of action for the United States in the world that you didn't have before. What do you make of the things that Joe Biden says that people around him either walked back or think they need to walk back because they are not strictly by the book diplomacy. So, for example, he said a few weeks ago. the flooding report and was a war criminal. Anything more recently in this broke a lot of controversy. For God's sake, this man cannot remain out.

Then there was a whole debate about whether or not he was advocate. For regime change, and then it was walked back dependent. So you ask they say you know it was week of the people around him, the career diplomats walk that back. Do you think's going on there? I think there's three layers, I'm probably going to end up by the end of these three layers offending every listener to your podcast in one way or another, don't offend me, Sir layer has all is Joe Biden has never been a properly disciplined person. he says what he says things he and when he was younger, especially speaks at great length. He would speak without always a lot of thought And that has historically been a problem for him and it got him into a lot of problems and problems nearly a part of his career

There is also another layer which is that Biden is a strategic blunder and that he will say that he takes advantage of his reputation at his earned reputation as someone who talks without thinking to say things that I moved the discussion most famously when he got up in front of President Obama on gay marriage, and that was obviously that was not obviously that I believe was deeply considered, and what is his plan was if I'm going to say this thing and either I'm going to drive the administration to follow my agenda, but if the president gets really mad at me, I can say: well, you know I just I'm always shooting my mouth off just means that it's just an acre. So so he did strategic blurt that actually changed the policy ministry changed country and then the third layer is

and again, I want to say this: not an exaggerated webs, there's a lot of unfair criticism of him, but he is the oldest president ever and by a lot and he is perceptibly losing some of his of his energy and and some of his some of his, rigour, and so I think those things are going out of some. I think the my God Putin has to go. I would every said exactly: and I think logic lot of want to believe it was a strategic blurt it was such an in, and it was such a step that I don't think it was strategic. I think there was an expression I was feeling. I think that was just that the shield between his inner self and his outer self being too thin because of of the stress of age in office. You know, depending on how this war goes, the western democracies can have bigger or larger bigger or smaller aims for the world afterward. But it's really too early to begin talking about

does bigger and smaller ames might be hearing you talk and about the things that Biden says whether they're strategic blurts. I think we have a title for the episode by the way, strategic blunder, which is hard to say no doubt trumps had a lot of things that were either stupid or offensive or accidental. In contrary to orthodoxy of Republicans and in general diplomacy. Also, and we all on the sidelines, criticize it and got into debates about it. but, but it seems to me that a lot of his base love that about him. Now, if you You see these interviews of people his rallies. They still say that they love and adore Donald Trump in part, because he said, He called it as he saw it and he said what he thought notwithstanding, the niceties of constrained politics are constrained, Relations and diplomacy does go by

we get the same kind of benefit as being authentic. Whether these these blurts are strategic or not. Look, there are different kinds of parties. There are different kinds of voters and also the and the different kinds of politicians I mean Donald Trump was a narrow caste. Politics should get an intense base of support, any leverage that into control of the Republican Party, but he was never if broadly popular present. There is not a single day after he took the oath of office when he had an approval rating of even fifty percent in any rapid, leaving aside the Rasmussen books and any reputable

and if you're a Republican given the Republican Map, that's fine, you can you can you can leverage you can lever and the Republican Party's more homogeneous within itself? The democratic party has so it's easier for one faction to gain control of the whole party, and then the Republican Party has more favorable electoral map, so it can eat that you can do more with a minority of the vote than than the Democrats can a Biden is a different kind of pr president running a different kind of party, but Donald Trump's blurts. They weren't strategic, I think we're often self revealing and that one of the think Donald Trump had, because he was such a profoundly immoral and indecent person. He had trouble remembering to do the decent season, the morale and conventional morality. It was just such a a foreign language to him, and so he would often reveal what he was up to. in ways that were, I think, non strategic radically bet that did him harm. He would confess to things that everyone says

did he had mine and because he did, he could not remember that he he was supposed to cover it up. I'm one of the final Trump's view in the twenty sixteen debates. The Hillary Clinton was asked to say something nice, but Donald Trump and and she answered something about his family, which wasn't even very convincing. what Father on top of everything else, there's nothing good is a terrible family man, but the one compliment you can one nice thing you can say about him or the one positive thing you can say to them. Is it actually to a remarkable extent? Donald Trump was not a hypocrite. He did not pretend to be a good person. He didn't pretend to who care about people he he showed himself for who and what he was. I think one.

Is that so many of us found ourselves so lost and unhappy during the Trump years was that you could say it's the people who subordinate don't even have the excuse that he concealed his real self from them, and he made it clear who and why he was, and if you supported Trump you did it knowing all of those things and that that was a tough thing for those who did not support Donald Trump to face about so many fellow countrymen and women. That's because not a lot of not everyone cares about those issues they care about results and and one day, you hate the liberal elite that they believe run everything in America, and so they don't care about personal morality. and it also gave him something of a shield right which are the the corollary of what you're saying then, when he did further bad things or shown himself to be indecent or offensive, it was not at odds with

The person they perceived him to be its interesting, that you say he you know he's not hypocrite because in M anyways. All trump on particular path the issues. In particular loyalties was, was eight an intense hypocrite? What you're talking about issues of choice or how he felt about certain p? he would say one thing one day and have a different feeling on another day, but what you're saying is sort of unobtainable second fundamental level. He didn't as a boy scout and reveled a little in being the opposite of that fair. What he look he was, he was impulsive, so you'd have random walks and look on the site. We use it. You mentioned choice. I mean that Donald Trump could be two faced, but it was but on on many those issues, I think he communicated very clearly. He didn't care. You know he didn't care about the war.

And to the extent that he had an opinion about abortion he he would be. You know for it, especially in his immediate circle, and then he, ah, that the people would write complained that he was being hypocritical where the pro life people, who would say no, but he did deliver for them, but he can he was pretty transparent transaction, is Donald Trump, doesn't care about the abortion issue issued all, but but he delivered the results because he respected the power within the republican Party. of the pro life coalition. So he gave them what they wanted, even though he obviously didn't care and obviously hated shop. but it s sort of strange it may be different. Words need to be used not hypocrite or two faced or contradictory because look at religion, You know he presented himself as someone who is a friend of the evangelicals, and you know he he couldn't name a quote in the Bible, but he thought it was. You know maybe second to his own book, the art of the deal, the best book,

but I think maybe we are also saying is at Everyone knew he didn't really care much about religion and didn't really care much about the Bible and didn't really care much about church and they forgave him for that. Well, They made a transaction and the transaction It actually shows one of the reason. One of the I mean this is. I think that the fundamental and one of the fundamental changes in the country that Donald Trump- road and one of the reasons why what happened on January six is so ominous for the future. But when I became involved with politics long time ago, social conservatives believe they represented the majority of Americans and that there were sinister elites that that defeated the moral the moral majority that that that that that name, which was Jerry Falwell's first group back in the nineteen seventies that that was also certain were how they thought the country was, and what do you think so moral majority by the way was a breakthrough movement. Is it it was a it tried to be a fusion of

All forms of it was obviously uneven, Jellicoe Movement, but to try to try to be more at manacled work with Catholics at work with other road Jews. Even argue, no other religious groups for a more emerge: moral majority of people of faith, no, not just sick Terran, even jungle, Protestants, but all of them, but to gather represented the good sense of the country or the moral sense, the country, so they promised an end through the early part of the twenty and twenty first century. I think that feeling was still there. That's why? When gay marriage became such an issue to the fourth that the the method that was chosen by people, The other on the other side was the referendum. Well, let's, let's take this out of the hands of the courts and let's let the plain people vote on it in an in fair, free and fair contest. Let's see where the country is not was that happened a lot, but we in the early part of the between two thousand and two and two thousand and eight the story of the Trump years has been that not one,

leaders, but I think many people inside the social conservative women have despaired of that. They understand now that that that's not where the country is and that they cannot get what they want with democratic methods, hence the fascination with Viktor Orban. Hence the admiration for Vladimir Putin, I'm. Hence the willingness to tolerate actions like that of January. Sixth, that that that and this is, I think, the real moment of danger the country faces is- you can spend social conservative and it Culturally, reactionary movement that is powerful enough to be looking for ways to impose its will on everybody, not it's not just looking for tolerance, it once domino.

but it also understands it was not so powerful any more than it can hope to impose its will by free and fair elections so that they had what others have Meeks like anguish, we'll be right back with more of my conversation with David from after this. Are you sleeping it's a valid question, and it's also a great new part cast from this Sleep experts at mattress, firm produced with VOX Creative, and these days people are exhausted. We need more rest. There is so much happening, now. Is it any wonder? We're up at all hours of the night. I know I am usually I'm up till two or three a dot m. If you follow me on Twitter, you probably know that are you sleeping is a podcast that pulls back the covers on all of it.

Host Kate, Berlin, as she explores incredible real life sleep stories with leading experts in Episode one. We learn why Kate is so obsessed with sleep and why we should be too what happens to our bodies and minds when we don't get enough plus our fixation on getting the perfect sleep might just be robbing us of the rest. We need check out. Are you sleeping and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts? Are you sleeping listen now in the time it takes to listen to this advertisement, your phone probably vibrate a half dozen times we're all swimming and notifications. From the moment we get out of bed which makes it extremely difficult to catch and keep anyone's attention. If you're struggling to deliver your messaging to the right people, Linkedin can help link It offers a new way to tackle, b, to B marketing, with precise targeting tools that let you deliver a message to super specific audiences down to their job, title company, name, location and more

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is Marjorie, Taylor, Green and Lauren Boebert, but many other people who see fit just a blatantly lie, whether it's about the election of twenty twenty, most famously or even other things such that the are people who are willfully blind. to the truth, I'll give you one example that I saw a pole about unemployment is, I think, at three point: six percent, if lowest rates of unemployment in modern times and impulsive Republican, showed that a majority republicans, have the belief that unemployment is up under Biden as opposed to have gone down, and that demonstrably false you can google it. very easily. You can even the lesser search engine like Bing you find, the same result isn't that a problem for fair politics going forward I wonder I it's interesting described that has an untruth, because that's that, but when they say it's, it's some

hi when in fact the slow. I don't think they're lying exact, Norman right away, at the reception, but the perception is for people's perceptions, an uncertain document of all things. Yes, they can be wrong. Yes, but it isn't that part of all of our- and I think, there's something about this and in human nature and chronic belief, for example, in every way that you can measure things are getting better and better and yet, as we get older I forgot. We we will are proud to say that things are getting worse and worse, because but that's sort of a general perception and it varies with age. But I'll give you another example and these things get called out. But I don't think it matters at a rally. The Donald Trump was at recently, there's representative. I remember the person's name and Even if I did, I probably wouldn't mention the name of the person who widely said it was Donald Trump who found and got rid of Osama Bin Laden and wow cheered. While President Trump was in office, we did have a war, and I think he made three peace treaties.

caught Osama Osama Bin Laden and solar money airbag daddy. In this president is weak because of wrong You could bring that also and- and I see a big butt and maybe that's always been so, but it for close to me my perception to be wrong. Certainly it to me the politicians who are actually elected to office,

can just say whatever the hell they want now and it doesn't matter. I think that, in fairness to that person, I think they had mixed up Osama Bin Laden with the head of ISIS who was killed during the Trump presidency, and so people missed the eight here's, an example that I think is actually because it happened in writing lots of president X. President Trump gave a statement just this past week, in which he said that the that he filled the strategic petroleum reserve that had been left empty had inherited MT. He had done it magically. He said now, that's one that in writing, that's premeditated and that's something that you can look up on the information page. I of of the Department of Energy, and you can see that that's not true, it's just not true and I died and I quick tweeted the little chart showing the levels in and in the strategic petroleum reserve- and basically it was, it was built up, basically it's

look up a lot when prices are low and then depleted fourteen prices are high in the president. Trump been president Trump did Dru down and hit the last year and a half to get gasoline prices down in time for the election of twenty but he actually left the the reserve lower than he inherited it from President Obama, so that I mean so that's more adult a deliberate. Why? But yet we put me, we do live, in an idea in ideologies and partisan ized country and and that may be inescapable. You know what one of the and that this may be. This may be just something we're all going to have to find a way to adjust. You know in in the nineteenth century, if you wanted somebody's vote, you deliver them an immediate personal material benefit, a Turkey, a sack of coal and the boss,

your vote and then in the twentieth century, Americans became better educated, more affluent, and if you wanted their vote yet delivered not an immediate personal benefit, but some kind of larger collective benefit, a new bridge, a new high school and do your job a factory in the district, and that's how you got there about what the country maybe now educated affluent enough, that we turned to politics for self actualization and after. Why are people listening to this? Podcast? Doesn't confer a direct material benefit on them? You know we're not telling him about betting tips or stock tips or health tips where we're discussing affairs of state and people, people find it meaningful and want to participate. While that's true also the people disagree with you and and so as people the politics more and more as a source of meaning, because they don't need a sack of coal and they don't even really exactly need the bridge they they're a lot of richness already and that they turned to politics for validation, ratification, and you were climate, give to use as fencing were climbing up, Maslow's hierarchy of needs to the the the highest of them all

I always thought that, as we became, was we got up that hierarchy that we would? your politics, more rational and they're more irrational because they're about things that it's harder to compromise on I mean you can always say I like this year you get the high school and our next cycle. We get to high school in our district. But if you say what I want from politics this to say that- My fundamental way of seeing the world is right and other people's is wrong. That's a hard thing to compromise upon we said just now makes me think of you're, sort of a thesis, the Tom, nickels and others suggest, and I won't get a quaint but he suggests that what's going on with with respect to the insurrection and the people who are committing violence and interview, no very distant Fran it's not about they're, not material things. It's not about class resentment. It's a lot of board p.

Well who want to be associated with some kind of crusade. How does that mesh with what you were saying a second ago? I think I think I would agree with that, but I would dream it of the priority of the Tom Associated with that. I think the human quest for meaning is the best part of who we are and It represents something important and good about human beings that they can be sad if they can have them, they can have materially enough men and- and you know, I think we all feel that, like the compulsive sharper the composite there. That's why, whether it the reason that people should have you no offended by the concentration of wealth that this isn't like

it really should be focusing on on higher things at at a certain point in a society should be focusing on higher things. So when people are it's not that they're bored as they they they, they don't want another bridge from their politics. They want politics, it delivers them something more spiritual and the problem is that that becomes a very difficult part politics to manage, and so what would happened and yet January six, I think most fundamentally was a lot of people have a vision of what it means to be. An american were shocked by the discovery. They don't have the clout to win that meaning at the ballot box and what I would tell them. As someone who basically still a pretty conservative person. Is you can do some modifications? You know it doesn't have to mean that you can take your values and reapply them and enlarge them, and you will be surprised that there are coalitions out there waiting for you, but you have to adjust. You have to adapt to the to the constantly changing country, just as

it was through. History have always had to adapt to change of changes. The great fact of especially the dynamic, progressive market economy like this one is just part of it's part of what makes America great dynamism. So so you have to adapt constantly, but you can also preserve constantly, but that their people become not conservative reactors, and now I want things to state exactly the same and not only the same as they were, but the same as are the same with I falsely remember them. I want a past that never was romanticize past the past that I, that I thought was true back in nineteen. Fifty seven when I was a child and that's not how the idle thought, but that's all I thought it was and that's what I want back I I I want it to be always Christmas, like in the Christmas movies, not Christmas as it actually wasn't, but clean We can judge that right. You said a minute ago this time Was idea about people wanting to be aged or associated with a crusade. You want to do the priority of, but it

depends on what the crusade is, if you do I did in the fifties and meaning for you- was keeping black people down, and so the crusade I want to enter upon is: is the Israel Klux Klan and- and I in good faith you is- into Beira, what good faith means doesn't get you off the hook, if you believe in good faith, if you believe in good faith, meaning its sincerely held view which you and I find a born in gusting in terrible. But if you even the nineteen fiftys. The black people were in courier to white people and shouldn't be school with your kids and you embarked upon a crusade. Even though it's not out of boredom. We can judge right now what I meant by threatening that the negative was. I just. I wondering that the idea that it's that it's somehow better, if your politics is about material things,

and if it is about psychic thanks, I mean that I was at a summit. Is right. You shouldn't promise of political management. I think it's easier at many was obviously easier to do politics when politics is about material. Things adds that that's not the the question that people unfairly ask of modern presence. Why can't you do what Lyndon Johnson did and rally rally of a vote in the Senate by promising somebody abroad? and the cool, because the bridges art is important. Today we have so many as they were when we had filled with crumbling we need to face those bridges. David yeah, but I one BR, like the idea that you're going to get a centers vote with the promise of a project in a way that in nineteen in a much corp poorer country you once could so that makes politics that makes political management more more difficult. We're def

so when I I I just think we need to understand this may be something we're just faded to encounter and that so does that, while people are bored and that that I think everyone who simply want one of the things that is a problem on the democratic side is you know, a lot of the people were sending two hundred and two hundred and fifty dollar checks to democratic hands are doing so on behalf of impossible causes and often driving their party in impossible directions and and they're doing it, because they don't at some level they don't care about the prospects of that they don't care Well, then, they kind of disrespect the kinds of concerns that a Chuck Schumer would have or a Joe Biden would have, and they are they're more excited by visions of a of a better world, and it makes politics more for though it may just be something about the level of development. American society is reached, you're talking about the politics of giving people

concrete things. Here's an example that I think falls into that category. That's been in recently- and that is the capping of prices of insulin, which would seem to me there are there Democrats and independents and Republicans who can't afford certain medications make maybe can't afford insulin, and I wouldn't think that to be such a divisive non bipartisan issue or partisan issue it. What am I missing about that? Well, I mean, as as a matter of policy, and what would you call capping? Prices means paying subsidy because the the price isn't kept as the the prices kept to the ultimate consumer, but someone elses is stepping up to write a check the difference between the market price and the price paid by the consumer, and that's absolutely the kind of thing that that discussions are like you know. So if bill Gates gets diabetes,

goes and buys insulin. He pays the same price and why? Why would you subsidize it that way? Why are you delivering the subsidy? You know for certain purchases and not others, say it's like the argument over and get lightening the the load of college that? Why is that one form of debt deserving of a subsidy rather than other forms of debt? So those are those, are. You know, important public policy conversations to have. I I thought you're going in a slightly different question with this, which is I, I think that the people proposing this are going to be surprised at how little benefit political benefit and the in the people want to camp insolent, get their proposal it, and they would that that I think that there is a part of the democratic world that keeps remembering things as they were in nineteen sixty five, when in a poor country you could deliver, care, and it would change the it would change the political framework of the country, and that happens less now, because politics is is much more about non material things and he used to be ended.

So tell me again. Is that a good thing, a bad thing or it can be both? It's just a thing, just this just of non normative David, a yet night. I think you sent us have to have to say that sometimes you society changes, ways that create new kinds of problems for political managers and and you just have to adjust your thoughts. But what were you get into trouble is if this is another way of being the a flip side of the the fi it's news message. I wanted always to be Christmas, as Christmas appeared to a seven year old and nineteen fifty seven to say, I want politics always to be the way. I think it was when Lyndon Johnson was swaying votes by promising bridges and high schools and job projects in the Senate. May nineteen sixties

and you know that, keeping up with your society as it is- and this has been a theme of of my writing for a long time, which is to be a patriot- means to love your country as it is not as you believe it used to be, and so we have to accept the world. You have to accept the world as you have no choice, whether like it is just is a big universe and you have to do you have to, and your politics have to face it an ear and that's why politics is so hard? That's why so much respect for politicians, because it is such a a challenge, thing too. Do and as the country gets bigger and more very, it all the time, because the job becomes ever harder. That's an interesting concept that you must love country the way it is rather than the used to be- and I know you probably don't quite mean this- but This made me think in various ways contribute in particular Republicans particular, are trying to take us back to someone,

those good old days whether we're talking about abortion, or you know some people more on the fringe. Talking about. As a you know, a a m, a taking away of the wall between church and state, although that's always been a part of our charter since the beginning make a folks who I love the country the way it used to be, and also in terms of immigration and the racial makeup of the country, would you their people who want to take us back to the place that they used to love. As I think the theme I keep stressing, it isn't the way it used to be it's the way they believe it used to be because if they saw the way it used to be they wouldn't like it. So you know there are people who complain about there's a soap opera, her historical soap, opera called Brigitta and and they've done race, blind casting, and so many of the people were supposed to be Regency. England are black and that- and this is obviously not the way it was, and I've heard people complain about it. But it's also true that all the characters have teeth and that's awesome.

Yeah so like if you actually it. If you had to go back to America in fifty seven none of the people who think they want it would like it. Actually, if you're given like a random position in the class hierarchy, I mean because it My like certain things about it. If your races, if you're racist, you might like some things about it, but the things you like about it are connected to the things to the other didn't like about it and deep, add denta, Set Yazzi, your fixed, the dentistry, and you are also fixing a lot of other things. At the same time I mean, for example, well, the things you might say is I you know I'd like to have the size of government that we had in the nineteen fifties, but are not the nineteen forties now because it happened a little later. But not not. The bare teeth were the most important thing that changed. The teeth with fluoride

in the water up. There was more important than any other things you do at the dentist. You see two or three times a year. It was the floor. Eyed and the water changed the teeth and- and that was an incredibly you know if you are complaining about the vest I mean the people combined, but vaccine once literally did complain, but fluoride in the water, but the foreign in what makes teeth strong, I mentioned this earlier that I would ask you is Trump, for Trump himself personally, but trumpet whatever that is and feel free to define it or not. Is Trumpism Ascendant

or waning or sort of even keel. You know, I think, when you think about these kinds of questions you you need to always keep in mind that these are choices were not observers. Here we are choosers, so trumpism could be ascendant. However, minute again we will dis, we can argue about what exactly does, but what that thing, and we think we can- we have a sense of what we mean. That thing could be ascendant. If you agree, if you don't do all you can to stop it or could be defeated, if you combined with, like minded people of goodwill and some in your energies, it's up to you an end is not visit. This is your deserve the David from way of avoiding production. It is much better is but It is my waiver boy finished by a boy predictions, not just because I'm afraid of being wrong besides been wrong funny and I'm not afraid of it, because it's because

I know we don't know, but no, but I would I my my aunty. I have an anti prediction stance that comes from I don't it predictions treat the future as a thing that exists as a thing about which statements can be made and their probabilities, but you can it's. It's shaping the table, I I ended one of my books about Trump by reminding people the story of the Christmas Carol. Charles Dickens, Christmas Carol with the last ghost the ghost of Christmas, yet to be appears before Ebenezer Scrooge in Scrooge asks the question: are you a vision of will be or what may be, and- and the ghost silently does not answer the question, but the story reveals it was just a vision of what could be and you could make others she doesn't have another future. Okay, I will accept that for now. I mentioned a couple of people earlier in an ice and a straw. with this myself,

you, you have these members of Congress who, I think are based no nothing and they have a lot of terrible qualities and they espouse terrible things, for example, or in board in Marjorie Taylor, green and there are people who say well, they should be ignored and, people who say well when they say those crazy things they should be called out. My first question is you have a view on one or the other, and then second, have they not already one. I think if you went and asked one hundred progressives to name republican members of Congress, the first names that they would come up with would be those to even though they have very few accomplishments to their name, no good or bad. You know, even if you're a progressive. What do you make of that debate? The question of how you react to things is very much a prudential matter. I mean that you, there are people who say, provoq

things as a way to make themselves famous they're, not famous now, and it will not say, must now received provocative thing and they get more famous and that that's big, no one of the reasons the talk Karlsson Show is the way it is, is Fox NEWS, like all cable, what casting faces. A crisis. Crable cable, is an industry of the past and it faces a very uncertain future, and so one of the people who make that thing. How do we make clips will be shared on social media, because we can't count on people who have working in our who, We can't count on people to watch our show on cable anymore. The way you could ten fifteen twenty years ago, but we could we can get them to share it with an energized the week we create demand for a product. Even if it's, if it's negative kind of demand, I'm so you have to be other hand when the man who is the man who was present

if the United States says something outrageous and why what the I'll get you with your Twitter fee. Why are you platforming, as the President of the United States, is important, whether whether a tweet him or not, he's a man? He can. He can end organized human life on this planet and eleven minutes notice. So that's the president to aboard about somebody who was on the way to becoming famous like Marjorie Taylor Agreement and to me it only. works. Idea that you, you don't amplify. Some only works. If everyone is on board with that- and he's not going to be because of human nature right the to my mind, the questions? What is it What, then, is the the whether internal incentives, a congress of change that a leader leaders can't squelch back ventures in the way they they? What's good?

I'm a famously SAM Rayburn, speaker of the house in the in the fifties, wouldn't even talk to first term members of the house, because he said the american people will elect anybody to anything. What's get reelected, then talk, but that was at a time when the leaders of the party controlled the finances when, when the bat one term member, if the one to remember Displeased SAM Rayburn same Rayburn, could cut that person of committees could deny the money could basically wash them of office? That's that's not so true, so true now and have Kevin Mccarthy as many, tools. He may discovery. Towards evening was shaped by the way is not impossible. That was, changed, gets reelected meant, then. What's he do so Congress, it is, is shifting in ways that create incentives for people behave the way Marjorie, Caleb, Green and others have done or Alexandria or cut, because your car tat, you know in it she

when she first came into the house tried to have a kind of day with Nancy Nancy and, in fact, changed her behaviors in way. In some ways she got rid of a chief of staff who was very offensive to other Democrats and who had some financial It was an and she looked like she was choosing a future as a member of the house, but I think you can see a lot of people saying I don't want rise to the ranks of the house. I want to be an internet celebrity and that its own form of power, and so that's going to be one of the one of the ways politics is going to be different. Is that you that social media allows people to quit new kind of information power that that that political society for leaders have to deal with. So I'm going to ask you make a different prediction: cuz. Maybe this is an easier one to make, but you can also sidestep it. If you want all indications do you agree, or that and people don't like it. When I say this, indications are that the house is going to change hands. You agree, I probably yeah. I do.

agree with other gets it s about, and that must be. You must we so certain of that you are willing to make, I think, you're not saying. Well, we can good choice, great. No. I think that the Democrats sure made it work with those kinds of things that we can talk about. Probabilities, I think, can always predict probability. So it's not him. It's there. You can imagine ways. The Democrats don't lose the house you you. You can certainly imagine ways of the Democrats. Don't lose the Senate, but probabilities they will lose the house and the problem a lower probability, but still probabilities. They lose the Senate So they lose the house, and I've talked a little bit about what that might look like in two thousand and twenty but I'm interested in hearing from you. What is not going to look like

in degrees of crazy. Is that going to be or if Kevin Mccarthy is the speaker. Will he try to make a little less crazy than I had predicted when Mccarthy is going to be a weak speaker, and so he will, he may try, but he will not succeed, and that is a prediction and that there's a real pattern in american Midterm elections election. Is it they're aberrations like twenty eighteen, where the party that gains the house is on it's way to gaining the presidency, but much more common are Iowa in recent times or elections like ninety ninety four and two thousand and ten, where the party that wins the majority the house takes it as a license to do every crazy thing I can think of and actually sets the tape for. Then it's defeat in front of the bigger electorate that come out in presidential years and so in.

I think one by one of the questions that, if you're a republican presidential candidate you have to worry about is your best hope is Republicans just barely falls short in twenty twenty twenty two and that the party think it so wrapped up in upset that they come up for you and twenty twenty four, because the danger that they face as your your, your your team, Winston, twenty twenty, two and then proceeds to do one crazy thing after another and meanwhile it that the administration has the power to do some course. Corrections now that it doesn't have to worry about so much about it's members in the House and Senate, especially in the house, you can do some course. Correction Biden will be able to do in twenty three, some very visible law and order things and to reaffirm that- and you know I don't want to.

the police. I know I think of course, criminals belong in prison. Obviously and Biden will be. I think the price of gas will subside. You know that the press that I think people over hugely overestimate the power of presidents over things like gas and food prices of food and fuel prices which have driven very much mackinaw. My cycles, him in the gas. Even before Ukraine, gas prices, gasoline prices were going up because prices had been low. Therefore, people didn't make the investments in twenty seventeen and twenty eight to generate the supply that you would burn in twenty one. Twenty two and twenty three prices had been higher and therefore people do make the investments and they take to those invest. Take two or three years to come to market and sow the seeds of the next year of high prices are always in the last year of low prices and vice versa. Last question: you were a senior at Is your Rudy Giuliani during his presidential campaign in two thousand and eight. many questions I could ask but the

I'm requests. No one asked you if you'll feel and feel free to embellish and an ally, it is the Rudy Giuliani of two thousand and eight the same guy. We see now or is he a different guy? He was on the path to being the sky. It was a very heartbreaking experience because I you know I I had a little of the New York in the nineties. I knew the neat Rudy Giuliani over night night is not always a lovable person, but someone with a sense of right. and someone who was determined to do what it took to to make life better for the people around them and someone who worked, who worked for others and and something went awry and it accelerated, and I I saw that actually, even if even during the campaign that one of the reasons that campaign went so bad

it was. There was something there is something already amiss, something that was already not committed, and I think voters, even republican voters, sense that that he he was about. He was about different, different things and, and it it's not the most impressive migrants, but I worked. I worked on I kept trying to the lake. my very small influence there to set. You need to talk about the need, the needs of the middle class people. You champion when your mayor of new look, I mean it's interesting. When people talk about Rudy Giuliani, I did not know him as well as you, but I knew him some and he's very nice to me when I in the journey attorney and they say see he we knew all along. He was always this way. He was always self obsessed. He was always you know. Ambitious in a particular way, always want to be real. my view is, and I ask this of people who know him better than I do.

He may have had some bad qualities. You point them out. He was very full of himself very arrogant and at a certain conceit throughout his career, even when he was a young US attorney himself. But this truly Giuliani's quite different, and I don't know what what exactly happened but in some ways it's sad to see and not. Everyone feels sad for him, but me up, but he was a. You know by many accounts a good and strong leader of the office that I led many years later and for him now we've associated himself with people and with conduct, that's just crazy town, yeah and to have his law license suspended in two jurisdictions, I think is, among other things, quite sad it. It happened to a lot of people in the Trump orbit, and- and this is when people say- oh now- you see

I don't think I think people character characters have a lot of elements them in a lot of potentiality to unfold Whizzer. Good and bad. Mike Flynn did really good work in Iraq for the United States and then things went wrong and I he was then appointed to head the Defense intelligence Agency, which was a job that was too big for him, he failed at it. He became embittered and then he spiraled off into this path that he's now on, but he couldn't. You can imagine that if he had not been given the job at if he'd given another job, he could have led an honorable military career into a quiet retirement, your teaching training and im back on real service to the country and in a life a life to be proud of, and real accomplishments in Iraq, where he he was, he did a lot to break insurgencies, because you see was very good. Is it of micro, police work and I think,

I just is a caution for all of us who know that their, I think, if we examine honestly our own character, we see potential in our cells for for good, for bad, depending on our environment and in so much of the lesson of studying these kinds of conspicuous characterised understand. You know I need to contact. I need to focus on making sure that I'm in situations that bring out my best self and that I consciously think about what is in my best self and what is my worst self and that I avoid the path of these that consumed people who had big protests in itself. David from you, ve been very generous with your time. For joining us on the show again is really great, always a pleasure. Thank you, My conversation with David from continues for members of the cafe insider community to try out the member

for just one dollar for a month head to cafe, dot com, slash insider as you know, it's not uncommon for me to end the show by talking about the passing of someone important to me or important to the public this week, I want to mention the demise of a restaurant it's in lower Manhattan. Nestled between the ESA, and why, in the days office amid the court houses along I Chinatown, it's called for Ladys and it's there for seventy nine years, broke recently that, after all this time, it shutting its doors for Ladys? If you haven't been there and I'm guessing most of you have not at big booths and white tablecloth, it served family star, italian american classics and was one of Manhattan last remaining red sauce spots? It was along

I'm favorite of judges, defense lawyers, prosecutors and defendants, and also reporters bail, Bondsman court officers and really anyone who worked in the courtroom ecosys One of the special things about the restaurant is that the booths were adorned with ex bearing the names of famous patrons one inscription- red judge, Leslie, Crocker Snyder, founded for sex crimes, prosecution bureau- in U S twenty five years patron The one Robert and Morgan saw the legendary Manhattan district attorney the wage of ninety nine who used to eat it for leanings. twice a week. It was referred to by the staff as the boss. Now, in my view, Morgenthau was but the jury is still out and whether anyone can be called the boss besides Bruce in recent years for early, has got attention because it began catering to a hipper set. You might call it a hip replacement that failed. In twenty eight ten. It played home two votes, pre met Gala Party, which was attended by celebrity

some members of the downtown fashion set before is it I knew was not, exactly a hot spot for fashion designers. I have my connection to the place and many great memories First of all, when I was a lionesses than it was a commonplace for people to have their farewell. Lunches and people will give toasts and tell stories about depart assistant US attorney from the southern district of New York, when I became used to attorney in two thousand and nine, I met for the first time, that legendary Manhattan district attorney when he was still in office, Robert Morgenthau I remember sitting down in the booth and looking at to the side on the wall and seeing the plaque basically designated that boost Robert Morgan Thoughts, and I felt I will say a little bit intimidated night. I joked, I think, at the lunch that, maybe one day in the future, if I'm lucky, there might be a booth with a posted saying, Preet Bharara on it. and when it came time for me to pick a place and celebrate what was both my birthday and my swearing in as the United States attorney for the southern district of New York,

It was really nice to hang out with my family and close friends from the office. Anyway, it was a special place for a lot of reasons and for a lot of people for it was family run for with seventy nine years in business. Most recent owners were Joe for Lady and his cousin Derek before is reportedly sold. The building for an undisclosed amount, Derek for and he told the times in twenty a teen eighteen quote. Father always used to say we came from ITALY with nothing. Now. Judges know me by name and could not a bad american story I'll miss for Ladys the what sit for this episode of stay tuned thanks again to my guest David from if you like what we do-

and review the show, an apple pie, casts or wherever you listen. Every positive review help new listeners find the show semi questions about news, politics and justice tweet them to me at Preet Bharara with the hashtag asprey, or you can call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven seven thousand three hundred and thirty eight that's six, six, nine and four two Preet, or you can send an email to letters at cafe? Dot com stay tuned is presented by CAFE and the VOX media podcast network, the executive producer is Tamara. Shepherd the technical director

who's, David Tattershall, the senior producers or Adam Waller, and Matthew, Billy, dot and dot. The cafe team is David, Kurlander Samos or Stayton Noah Ozil, I not Wiener Jake, Kaplan, Sean Walsh and Namitha Shah. Our music is by Andrew Doss. I'm your host Preet Bharara, stay tuned.