So here something I've been really excited to announce, and now I can the fall tour of state tune with is on sale. Now, here's the short version gotta to cafe dot com, tour right now and pick your show that will take you write to the ticketing site. That's capita com, slash tee o. You are first at New York, I'm through October, twenty fifth, you can come see me and Jeffrey Cuban New Yorkers f writer and seen in chief legal, analyse, wait he's the chief legal analysed anyway come see Jeffrey tube in me, and Europe's cities, town Hall, on October, twenty fifth, at eight p m we have allotted about on November, twenty ninth Camille Non Johnny will join me on to the Wilshire Apple Theatre, in LOS Angeles, that's right, Oscar nominated for the big Stick, my favorite character, Dinesh in HBO Silicon Valley and yes, he played Brad in hot tub time machine to it's. My first love show, in LOS Angeles, I hope, to see their going

I think that comes lashed tour cafe dot slashed. He, oh, you are. Don't miss out from CAFE, welcome to stay tuned I am preparing. Involuntary patriotism is not patriotism, its North Korea. You now sets out simple right, involuntary page Does amidst this contradiction in terms that Sally Jenkins She's a feature writer at the Washington Post. I speak with her about justice and Americans force. The controversial Serena Williams match the: U S open the kneeling protests in the interval and our friendship, cyclists, Lance Armstrong, before we get to the show. I want to remind us of one important fact today, this very day, talks a one year anniversary. This package was a year ago today that we put The show with me I'm statement and activation

some more about what the last year has been like. That's coming up today to stay tuned to supported by betterment, sometimes average is great. I definitely take them or average political climate than the one we're living through, but when it comes to money, average isn't really good enough. Is the investing tool for people who won't settle for average. Investing because really, if there's one area were being above average is especially nice, investments are probably it betterment combines, cutting edge technology and human expertise to help you make the most of your money with a personalized portfolio. They help you more from your investments, then God you, along the way, with advice to help you make smart financial decisions. Simple online tools, let you track progress towards your goals, so you can always. like a smart savvy investor. You're, probably online anyway checking headlines and

sing for the latest news- Lord, why not take a minute to checking your financials with betterments online tools. You can investing involves risk betterment can be your guide and now stay tuned with pre listeners can get up to one year managed free for more formation visit, betterment, dot com, slash preach, that's betterment, dot, com, slash preach betterment, outsmart average. So obviously, the Big NEWS this week and an issue on which I've gotten an unbelievable number of questions is the wreck Cavanaugh, nomination to the supreme So about a week ago we were recording, seem to be sailing towards a vote in the Judiciary Committee this week, would have been basely party line, which would have gotten amount of committee in a free vote the entire Senate, in relatively short order that has been up. As you all know,

and at the time of this recording it about noon. On Wednesday September nineteenth devote for tomorrow has been postponed because there has been a serious allegation. made by woman named Doktor, Christine Blasi Ford, who is a psychologist in California who claims, as you ve all seen that a number of years ago, thirty, five or thirty six some years ago, when she was fifteen and brick having. I was seventeen. There are both at a party in a suburban Maryland and he attempted to rape and in the room during the time of the attempted attack was a friend of his name or judge for his Barbara Cabinet denies completely that he ever engaged in such conduct in high school ever after that, and was never to party like that

So the question is: who is telling the truth and whether or not you believe, one party or the other, what should happen so? The first issue was procedural right. What what happens next PET Republicans control the Senate? The only way for the vote to have been postponed derailed in some way is a fellow republican senators stood up and said they wanted more process and said that they wanted to have more investigation and to did Jeff Lake has been on the show and, as member of the Judiciary Committee made clear that he wanted to hear from. The person who made the allegations and also perhaps brick, Havana and other senator who is not in the committee but as an important vote for the republican caucus. An account nomination is report and Moderate Susan Collins, four main so once those two but particularly flake, made clear on Sunday that they were, to hear more initial proceed. Chuck rashly basically had no choice but to postpone the vote and then set

For Monday, this coming Monday and open hearing to which leave. They have invited both Doktor Ford, who makes the allegations and also about Cavanaugh It's interesting, but I've seen a lot of senators get up in the well, including Macfarlane others, and the thing that they have been complaining about. and they had been upset about, is not the content of the allegation so much as the timing of when Diane Feinstein forward with it and when the identity of the alleged victim came out in the press in the Washington Post and I find humorous if it weren't so serious. is that it does make any sense at all the August, as usual An Feinstein had this letter and you the allegations of attempted rape against Brett Cavanaugh and saved it for tactical reasons, until after the regular hearings took place, and we were on the cusp of a vote in addition committee so that she can derail the nomination and derail the confirmation.

pick any sense to me, as everyone knows, and as Diane funds and has made clear she was trying to do right by Doktor Ford who reluctantly had come forward. Who didn't want her name to be used and if you really wanted to do damage to the confirmation of bread. Cavanaugh really wanted to have the maximum possibility of destroying the confirmation of that man, and you had the information about the alleged attempted rape, the time to have brought it forward. If that was, your goal was during the hearings when everyone was paying it not after their over on the off chance, thought that perhaps there will be a delay in the vote, because we see now that almost in happened or slow may not be much of a delay

could happen as soon as Wednesday, whether not there's a hearing on Monday. So I think there's a lot of bad faith on top of everything else in these allegations against Diane Feinstein. I think it's the delicate, difficult, sensitive thing when someone comes forward knowing how people are treated these days when they make allegations like this, we ve seen it all. Too often they meet movement that you come forward. Your life is appended she's, gotten death threats, she's had to move away from her home, all of which he predicted and all which true, and so, when someone is trying to in the interim before trying to persuade some one to put their name to an allegation, I think it appropriate fair, an honourable that she kept the identity secret in an otherwise leaked out. Will then that's when the rubber meets the road and that's when the vote be postponed, as it should have an here was set. As this recording, it sounds like she's not coming on Monday, although she is not as far as I've seen

definitively ruled out and a basis that she and her lawyer have given is that they would like before they come forward and before she goes under oath to testify. They would like the FBI to conduct its own investigation So what's editors are asking for this on one side is the f B. I take a look at the allegations interview. The appropriate people For purposes of determining whether or not it is true that bears the fitness of his person to be on the Supreme Court for them to do, that is my understanding that the president has to direct them to do so in the president Donald Trump has it will yet be. I doesn't do that and it seems little not to me because since when does Donald Trump, let the FBI direct matters as opposed to the other way round. it seems as soon today were an impasse that doctor for will not come testify. Messrs first, some investigation by the FBI's some facts are brought to bear their remember. I should be obvious to everyone. This is not one of those things that unprecedented.

Is not without any president. There is a precedent. It was indeed a hill making sexual misconduct allegations against then Nominee Clarence Thomas back, and I can only one and back then before the ME to movement before there were Greater numbers of women in the Senate and one would hope before there was greater sensitivity to and acknowledgement of, the rights of women and the belief people who should have in credible accusations being made even back, then what happened was Clarence Thomas testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, and then these allegations came out after that. Just like we have here with Doktor Ford and Joe by

who is the chair of the Judiciary Committee, reopened the hearings- and there was another hearing like we're talking about for this Monday, but in between the allegations be made by and need a hill and the second hearing at which both need a hill. The person making the delegations and the nominee testified guess what happened. There was an investigation, did it: it was the FBI, the FBI's, most professional law enforcement organisation- that I know- and I work with very closely for lawyers, and I feel there being politicized again everyone, whatever side your on. What are we think of the ideology of cabinet the allegations, the serious one? It has credibility attached to it, even if you dont fully by it and then and you want to get at the truth. I'm there's no reason why senators from both sides of the island, the american public shouldn't, become satisfied that the fullest inquiry possible has been made, look on public inside they want to be derailed. There is the disease,

to have someone of a particular view on the Supreme Court and brick cabinet seems to fit the bill but there is another thing: coming onto is another dynamic here right, the election is coming up and, although it seems likely, the Republicans will win in November and keep a Senate there's a decent possibility that that won't happen and that, if you don't get cabinet confirmed in relatively short order, maybe Democrats will control the Senate and they will do to the next nominee or to this now many, what Republicans

Denmark, Ireland, so there's a lot at stake here, but I think it will depend on the individual judgments and reputations of certain senators, like Mcconnell, like Susan Collins, from main likely some rakowski from Alaska and from Jeff Lake who sits in the Judiciary Committee from Arizona I'm unload to predict what can happen in the next few days. But I will say that I think the F b I should do its investigation. Doktor fortune come testify per capita come testify again. People should ask their questions and they make drones. now. At the end of the day, they may not be any full certainty as to what is true, what does not answer? The question I guess arises in a house senator supposed to make his or her decision on how to vote in a what's the standard,

has to be met with a spectre. This allegation YO and remind people something it's not a court of law. This is not a trial about whether or not the crime of attempted rape was committed in is not subject to a beyond reasonable doubt standard that we have under the constitution. This country people already have some reasons that they want to support per capita, no matter what other people Reasons why they I want to support cabinet, because they think that he's not right for the court, because I think he's misleading about a number of other issues during his hearings as wrong. Clean pointed out when he was here a short time ago, and so for them, the question is Do you believe absolutely one hundred percent that the allegations are true? It's whether or not they think that the additional allocation is credible enough, that it gives them further doubt, and I think it's okay to have the standard. A senator is entitled to do his or her own conscience on the issue. I will see what happens. Next. Question comes from Rennick O four, who writes really enjoy the pact

what, if anything, have gleaned from the recent metaphor pleaded. I feel, like the news. Getting tighter around this corrupt administration, one of its getting tight around the administration, it getting tighter of Paul Manafort and everyone else who comes within Cross hairs of the mother investigation. It seems to me the time after time after time, with your Michael Flynn, resort, puppet apples or comment afford that your best option is to surrender quickly and Paul Manifold is an object lesson in. I think not particularly good loitering, not preclude strategy. If, at the end of the day, he was gonna, give it up and cooperate and give the prosecution formation the best time to have done. That would have been to been ripped remorseful at the beginning and plead at the beginning and give up the information at the beginning, and it seemed

metaphor, the man who was trying to gain things out and he got convicted a trial which shows the public that, in a neutral jury that even had on people who are supporters of the president, found prove beyond reasonable doubt to convict him on a number of counts. Yet another trial, pending and in between those two trials, decided to cooperate and plead guilty of the prosecutors have the best trophy. You could possibly have in case you

both a conviction, no in an open, proceeding with a conviction by a jury, and you also have an admission of guilt in the form of a plea by the defendant. That's a very rare thing, and now they have information that we can use against other folks. So my senses, the metaphor is providing substantial assistance, because otherwise the prosecutors would not have accepted as cooperation after having in their pocket a guilty conviction, a number of counts, as even expect charges against other people, I'm not saying who they might be, if I don't know, but you can expect that they would have only agreed to accept as cooperation if there are other people against whom they can bring charges up. The food chain released lateral to him in the fighting is in answering your questions. If we ve been taping, this park has just a few days ago on Saturday, we probably would have spent on

I'm talking about Paul Manafort. But news moves at the speed of light, and I wouldn't days were talking about the Kavanaugh confirmation to maybe next week will be something else, but keep your eye on the ball and remember that these cases are going to keep coming at the idea that Donald Trump's lawyer suggested last year that the Mueller investigation be wrapped up imminently or before Thanksgiving or before the end of twenty. Seventeen was nonsense is nonsense. There's a lot still yet to come. my guess this week is Sally Jenkins. She writes about sports as you're, a writer at the Washington post? He also cover things, including as you'll hear you was attorneys. We talk about John, in fairness in american sports and one of reasons ass would be in the show. Was she wrote what was pretty much the definitive immediate viral hard about the final yours open a couple weeks ago was really Williams headaches

Controversial run in with a chair, we also talk Cowan Cavern it, the NFL protests around police brutality, Vienna, his own brutality problems and sallies friendship with cyclist, Lance Armstrong. Who went from darling to villain when his doping was reveal. That's coming up. Stay too. You know it's not smart, so many things line to federal investigators, picking fights on twitter eating bad Pizza and another not so smart thing, the way hiring used to be job sites that overwhelm you with tons of the wrong recipes. Read the right recipes with zipper and now more than ever, we all know the import, surrounding herself with the best people now

a smarter way at zip, recruiter, dot, com, slash preach, sip, recruiters, powerful matching technology finds the right people for you and actively invites them to apply. It wonder the zip is rated number one by players in the? U S, that rating comes hiring sites. Untruss pilot with over one fell- and reviews, and right now my listeners contrive zip recruiter for free at sea, preclude or dotcom slash preach. That's zip, recruiter, dot, com, slash, p r e t stay tuned, supported by simply safe. Simply safe is home security done right in here's. What I love about simply safe. They are ready for anything. If a storm takes out your power, simply safe is ready if an intruder cut your phone, I am simply safe, is ready if they destroy your key patter siren simply safe will still get you the help you need and look. Maybe it's overkill

you don't need to be ready for every worst case scenario, but simply safe is always ready just in case. That's what makes it great simply safe is a smart home alarm system. That's easy to set up and easy to use. You choose the features, hardware and service. That's right for you Now simply save could cost an arm and a leg. Maybe it should, but it doesn't. it's just fourteen. Ninety nine, a month, no contracts, no hidden fees, simply safe has gotten and plus rating, with a better business bureau for ten years running and they have over forty five. and five star Reviews online, that's more than I have so today to simply saved our come slash preach that simply Dot com, Slash preach, Sally Jenkins. Thank you so much for being on the show, thanks for having me. So this is all about different you're, the first through a person from the world of sports sportswriter to beyond the show, but I want to mention to the audience the

I've met before and the first time he met was in my office when I was your attorney and you were the one the questions, but it was in March of twenty fifteen wrote in Washington Post. You know a fairly thorough at a pretty fair profile of me as your attorney and You wrote the following, and so I think, you're prose is excellent, very good mastery of the language So you described me like this: the most powerful prosecutor in the country, the? U S, attorney for the southern district of New York, occupies a four square. Amber flooded with relentless government ceiling light, which makes his charcoal suit all the darker and his white shirt so stiff. It could poor itself a glass of water, all the wider okay. So. The hell does a shirt ports of a class work. Could you explain the metaphor because I've been trying to understand, I get it. It sounds cool I feel like, but that doesn't make any sense of illegal shirt could have stood up on its own and walked across the room so wanted it Eliza House differs measured today, you very relaxed them

and I watched it. I told you, I said you ve lost ten years, so I stopped being a prosecutor very rock and roll. right. Well, let's rock n roll and so on. We everything, that I want to mention that I don't blame you for, isn't. We became friendly after meeting, and I had some thought about- writing a book and you've written a number of books, and you encourage me to do it, and so I did so want to say I will never forgive you that's right because writing is is breaking rocks with a shovel, really it's difficult So, first of all, congratulations and well, if not, you know our public modern editing it, but, as I told you when we first brought this up I'll read that book I mean. that's why I'm counting on it and if all the guests of the show read the book. That's like take forty bucks like a diesel Sprague, I see more than zero

you're right about a lot of things I to sports, is sports inherently easier to interests, people and because the nature of it is interesting. I think so. It's a highly emotional vena volatile subject for people who, as this Serena Williams, match demonstrated. I mean that's probably one of the best red things I've ever written at any level book or magazine or newspaper ope. Couple million people read that peace into your time, Israel time yeah, so yeah, it's easier to immediately and gay people and some in their already feeling pretty hot about the engines already running pretty hot. In the first place, why was a sports columnist assigned to write a profile of the? U S attorney, because it was I first of all it was it was set. You know I I I write things outside of sports I've written political profiles over the years for the Washington Post, so wasn't because of my perceived tremendous at It was because of your position on by being alone, I live in New York for one, even though I work for the Washington Post a yearning you're. You were at the time and remain of,

intriguing figure nice would remain. I thought I saw that you edited yourself in real time. You work was it was. It was a very definitive past tense. You such a side and then you the patent vertical? I did look, what look? I don't care, what you actually IDA? It's it's fine, but I want you to know that I totally caught it very nimbly. Yes, isn't athletic, none at all and once again, maybe in the future I'll, be interesting, but today you're the interesting one let's talk about that match, so it was a? U S open. It was the final and it was Serena. Williams has won many times in many different venues and she's. the relatively unknown Naomi Osaka. We get to happen in the match. I won't talk about the writing of this peace. It you put together what made you write that peace so immediately, and so

Are you hot about it? Where you start? It was interesting, so I thought it was. It was unique and unprecedented in my personal experience to see a grand slam final end, the way that it did so that's news and- and I called the office immediately and said you know, I think I have to write, don't you and they were like well, we'd love it. If you would so, I started typing took about ninety min probably towards at the stage so Serena Williams, is in the final with Naomi Osaka, Trina Williams gets get beaten pretty badly in the first set right sixties, down six to announce. The second set and there are a series of calls made by the chair up Carlos Ramos three in particular, the resulted in a fairly harsh penalties against Serena tells what those were. So it begins when he calls for coaching, which is a pretty tricky tacky technical call to make coaching isn't a subject in tennis that has been debated for a long long time. It's something it is called disparate

Finally, against women, actually, men don't get comfort nearly as much. There was Lord. The violations of the rules are fairly incoherent. Actually, in women's tennis you can you can it. You can be coached at certain stages of the match, but not at others. That rules are different, men's tennis in a grand slammed final. The rule is basically no coaching and Grand slam final, but it's a scrambled eggs policy. Basically to start with her coach did try to signal something from the box. She claims, first of all, that they dont have preset signals, and there worse even ahead. She seen what he was doing. She would not have understood what he meant by it but turbulence, but it is definitely truth echoes. He admitted it. Yes, he said he was engaging incurring so the first violation is coaching I make about that and in parliament's amendments question. As you know, we spend our time on a show, and I have, in my life talking about what's fair in the courtroom. What's fear in politics and with a rule should be followed and what the discretion is of the person whose going bring about the penalty, so its rule

It is really was admitted, but the rule was broken and we'll get in a moment to whether or not there was selectively enforced correct, but any unfairness in calling on infraction so discretion is the key word here. The chair and prior has a lot of latitude. He Phronsie could have warned her. He could have lain down from the chair and said: hey your guys, trying to signal you tell him to knock it off. right I mean that's one option had his unknown stickler. He called it also elder on television. Talking about. When those rare occasions he wasn't defending the legal strategy to Hell Trump and said, and I consider that we may well be that in fairness of the calling of coaching was, somewhere in the law. If you impose a penalty on a client foreign infraction by the lawyer corrected, and it was the culture is engaging in the bad conduct in

should not have visited on the player. Do agree with that. I do agree with that and pillaging king said that very thing. It's part of the problem with the way the rule is written is at the player, absorbs the penalty for semi net It is doing that Serena Williams in the middle of a grand slam final has no control over the people. In her box right Thing happens. Yes, then the second thing happens. What's so the second thing happens and he has to call this. She breaks, racket, cut and dried, no real discretion there. Although you know something again, cheering powers have an enormous amount of latitude there, some chair empires, who might have issued a warning rather than what they call a code conduct violation. So she breaks a racket. That's too strikes essentially what we're working up to his third strike me and we are giving to the third Reich is the significance of the third strike is that it's a mandatory deduction of a full game so when she breaks a racket, it's the second violation he deducts appoint because he's already called her for coaching. It's a second strike against her and therefore

it deducts, appoint and so now she's had a point taken from her in a critical game in a critical stage. The match. Now, Serena Williams has come back she's a notorious, slow, starter, she's come back from a set down in more grandson finals than we could probably count on four hands. This is part of what she does she feels herself competitively with an amount of competitive anger, and so now what he's done is he's walked up to the edge of the cliff and its third Carlo online having arguably Serena waters a little bit certainly walked around their coach. Did the thing redirect you know, I dont condone her conduct across the board and I don't think anybody does not think she defence or conduct across the board. It's the third call that Carlos RIM makes. That is really where he had the most latitude and the most discretion any makes the strangest call of the match and it happens to be,

The one called it in my mind, an empire or an official or a sentencing, judge or a prosecutor really doesn't make. This is what takes the entire match Situate- and from a normal skirmish between athlete and chair, umpire or athlete and referee and tips it over into the truly unprecedented ugliest situation. I've ever seen in a grand slim tournament and I've covered Europe, which is what some serene Williams does want. Serena Williams is arguing with him there's no, double obscenity which, as a rule There is no threat back in two thousand and nine she threat, the lines woman and says I should shoved this ball down your throat. I wrote it in two thousand nine. She have been suspended for that. So you think that merely calling pussy, I think she called him a thief right. She said you stole appoint, forestall point and, I think,

the thief yeah you're safe use, but there was no one. There was no profanity is no profound and there is no suggestion of having them swallow a piece of sports equipment, exactly she's, arguing and out in a fairly controlled for release. From my point of view, watching at home with the rest of it the audience you where you could hear every word. The people in the arena couldn't hear actually what was going down on the court, but it watching and television. You actually could hear every word. She was saying and what what's your demeanor during his time, because I will talk about this good and interesting ways- a double standard, yeah angry between men and women, argumentative strident would you used the word emotional? Certainly, but you also have think user were controlled, controlled and makes a difference. Yes, I mean she was very careful. Francis Knotty is falling

and not to use threatening language. You know she'd been in this situation before in two thousand nine, when choosing younger player with a lot less self command. She had behaved really I brutally and brutally ugly fashion- and I think, has worked pretty hard to get a grip on that sort of behaviour on the court. But again technically he was within his rights to call it. I dont think he was within his right to call her what he calls or for it. He calls her forever bull abuse which first eyes an incredibly vague term anyway, you know: what's in the rule, is there is a rule against verbal abuse teams meaning, I promise of these rules is limited, but I met in a pre archaic, Rulebook anyway bill abuse. I mean I didn't hear anything abusive in what she was saying. I mean I just didn't I to this. I don't an objective standard of abuse that give. He felt a beautiful part of what you wrote is that the Cherub decide make it about himself out. Look I've seen them yes, rooms to wear a defence lawyer is made argument and for some reason the judge thinks you're many judges would not find a defensive

a particular judges, maybe sensitive about it, finds it offensive and begins to will against one side, which I think is unfair, but it is what the discretion of that judge. So it was incumbent on the judge, in this case the chair up control himself or knowing the stakes in being the professional athlete, maybe the best in the support that we ve ever seen up to her to control herself, I think nobody likes it when a judge of any sort inserts themselves into a situation. where things appear to be working themselves out, no member the audience in no competitor wants the final score to be determined by the guy in the striped shirt or the pie in the blazer sitting in a chair ten feet above the action on the court will

report with a presidential election, or I heard a judge in a poor man- affords trial. Roma people are a little uncomfortable with the way the Virginia Judge captain himself right result agreed by the green analogy Renault, so it when you feel that someone is tilting the floor, particularly when a judge is tilting the floor, that Sharon part tilted the court okay. So it's difficult now, no, whether Naomi Osaka was going to beat. Lena Williams, Williams, two straight sets and when the yourself in championship, because this judge dropped a game and appoint on her side of the court, This is when the great philosophical debates in sport you know, do you call the fowl and the final second of the incidentally champions your name or the MBA final? Do you call holding on the last play of the super bowl or our interference d? Let them play and pretend commit physical violations out their orders if it's on the fence in the case of a clear

serious violation in any sport or in the real world outside of sports. You call it. What you are saying is, I think, there is more of a debate about whether or not in in a close situation d become a deciding factor right. Do you become the deciding factor? and so a lot of times audiences get very frustrated or sport, writers, Urbino whomever particularly computers, get very frustrated when a reference year empire call something that could be called it at any stage of the game. It again you you go back to common violations that early in the game or not decisive factors, but in the final thirty seconds, obviously create an unequal. Duration right, my Jim Commie, sending a letter.

to be driven by the parallels between surreal, William and sentence, and everything else going. I'm so exogenous boy, here's what it looks like to me. So what happens when Carlos Reign was caused, that third could conduct violation and slaps an entire game penalty on her, basically sick, The third strike honor, you know, says three strikes you're out. Basically game set match over I'm taking the entire. U S open away from you so without looks like to me in a bunch of other people. Is you know you get pulled over for speeding and you wind up in handcuffs into jail cell ok feels like an incredibly disproportionate sentence. Inequities, Erelong leader the offence was so that the perfect forbidden in cigarette. What the principles are here soon it was down she two percent- and I know you say that you want a grace, come back there's well time, but she was only down a further game. In other words, is it was the breaking point for her could have come back and won the entire match if it had remained

three to. I think it was or because this one additional game was taken away from her, then it was, over or as it is, a combination of that and what this did to her mental state citing it was the key. Nation. I think it was the three could conduct violations in a row which were incredibly disruptive, I think, to both players and the audience, but also again, it's the stage of the matter is a common natives, the confluence of about three or four different factors that I think we're so upsetting the audience to her to Osaka, even in the audience a few times in June. Umpire situation that back a little bit and let the players play because its entertainment only or does it does. It need to be as principled and rule oriented as any other thing we engage in. I think that's a great question and I think the answer is the former

I think that the understanding context, situational awareness is really critical for on powers in referees, and I think the really good ones in the game understand exactly who they are where they are and part of my issue with the way Carlos Ramblas on part. That match was that he had no situation. Awareness absolutely no sense of time in context, and you don't really that there was a significant cost to both players, even though it is sport. You know, athletes are incredibly ephemeral creatures, they only guy a few cracks at all time greatness at: U S open finals, so there was a real sense that he had deprived both players of something quite important, even though it is just a tennis match. You know there was three point: five million dollars. It state There is a certain amount of you want to send a certain amount of justice there. More importantly, you know four Naomi Osaka. It was her debut as a grand slammed champion in its really kind of forever marred.

What level of blamed you put on Surreal Williams? Plenty, but again, you know it's the disproportion that is distressing in the situation. we're Jamaica, then that the game is awarded to a soccer and serene it gets now. She gets very upset describe what she did. She calls for the tournament supervisor which she had every right to do. The term ensue from supervisor can overturn the decision of the chair umpire in this case they didn't. So you think that the term abuses authority, I think he overstepped, and I think he he over reached and I think he wasn't going to be spoken to that way. I think he let his emotions get the better of him in and you know, look your job in that situation is to warn her, which is what most sure most your would have done. They would have said careful you ve got to cook conduct violations. Don't make me give you a third one, because I don't have to take it

away from you was that he didn't like being taught to in a certain way by a woman by black woman in the house. Being in some ways: massage missed in his empire, and I dont know about the massage any. But I do think that the evidence is absolutely clear that mail players behave that way all the time without those kinds of penalties, and I ll give you an example: Imp I've seen umpteen match. Yes, where male players broke, rackets swore in one instance of probably the worst in since I ever covered, and I really like Andre Agassi and he's grown into a just, a wonderful man and he outgrew this incident, but he was playing a match against Petr Korda at the US open, and he F viewed the umpire called him it s so be and then spend at him on the changeover and played on without penalty open. In fact that Europe are tried to penalize him ass, he called for the tournament supervisor. The tournament supervisor came out and overturned the chair empire and basically, let accuracy play on in the match. He was dead,

sky immense game, but you know what everyone does. It is not an honourable defence, certainly not, and is a little bit of what people refers. What about a sum of years, a lot low, and we were right- and that is isn't this little bit of that. No here's! Why? Because, if you look statistically at the number of times any player, male or female has been penalised and entire game. You mean that huge penalty that huge penalty, Serena Williams Gotcha once in thirty five hundred matches one other time in thirty five hundred tennis matches. You can't feisty Tipp people to have tried to analyze, statistically whether women get penalized like this more than men. The fact is, no, but he gets penalized away. She did nobody, so you know what that suggests to me is there was a clear by us on the part of this chair umpire it was an unprecedented penalty. Do you think that Europe should continue to be in the game? You know

I do. I dont think you drove me pretty hurry now. All I'm saying I think he did a committed, a real service and I think he bled is biased, get the best of him on the court now. What by us, it is, it could have been purely personal. I happen to think it was. It was biased towards women behaving that when a court, because he's presided over other matches where he didn't penalized, often a doll for a full game and often a d, came after him verbally said: you'll, never Raffoni Doll, told him at the French opened you'll, never sit in the chair and another one of my matches, which is almost verbatim one of the things Serena Williams said to him in the: U S open final, so then the match ends and its chaos in the ruins upset. Some they come out for the ceremony was describing will essentially you ve got both players it distraught and in tears the crowd is bits. River loser underwent the loser in the winter are both crying. The crowd is below the boozer raining down on the court,

in a shark is waiting for a chance to speak because first Serena speaks and an eye on me her her visor right, which he pushes down and she's wiping tears away, even if she has just then the most extraordinary thing of our entire life over I could maybe the message for nursing she will ever do and the moment ruined for her. when is run for because of the intensity of the intensity of the anger and the emotion in the arena the crowd. You know, no one wanted to see it in that way. Look that moment is so complex and so loaded, because Osaka is sick because she didn't want to win a match that way. She didn't want anything given to her. She wanted to beat Serena William

in the: U S: Open Final Serena Williams is sick. It what's been taken away from her, but I think also, probably, I presume, fairly sickened- that she's helped ruin this moment. For this great new young player, the crowd is sick for both players and furious. At the chair, umpire for having created the situation in the first place, lieutenants is a fairly undemonstrative is a very hushed sport, so that level of noise and emotion was, was pretty extraordinary within what happens line. Serena Williams puts her arm around Naomi Osaka leans over and says I am very proud of you, they're not going you and then she also tells the crowd no more booing. This is her moment. You know, let's make this the best moment we can for her and no official and no announcer was gonna. Get a grip on that crowd. Serena Williams at that moment is the only person who can do it, and she knows that- and I think took responsibility for herself in that moment indeed exists,

the right thing, my last question to you on this match. What was the angry reaction to your article? The people who upset with your view. What was, because they are merely it had some nerve. You know, I think the match itself had a nerve people respond in an intensely emotional ways to sporting events. There trigger events, sports events, because people when you route for somebody part of what you're ruining for you I'll, be right. Ok, you're gonna be wrong about them, so the stakes get a little high rooting for for sports figures. Sports teams there been a million psychological studies that show that people take the successes and failures of their sports teams of sports

as very personal successes and failures. It's about your judgment right, but the second part of it is you know. Serenely lambs provokes real discussion. She has set out actively sought the platform to provoke discussion about gender and race, and it makes people uncomfortable it makes him defensive and it makes him resentful sometimes. Is it appropriate for to do her or is utterly individual person is up to each individual person? It's not inappropriate You don't believe in king chose to do it. Arthur Ash chose to do it. Lebron James has made a whole different range of social activist, Mrs then Michael Jordan, did you know some athletes doing some athletes? Don't and it's not come in. I asked Billy drinking that question once I said our athletes supposed to be activists. Do they have a responsibility and she said no, it's a choice. She said I wanted it. I wanted to be that, but I would never impose that on an athlete in feel comfortable with it.

That's a great segue to talk about football and kneeling during the anthem incorporate any written about this in a this, question which you address Is why does it make people so crazy? The issue of somebody protests in a particular way, and you have said with respect, I think, to the to the concomitant counter see and his decision to protest, not the anthem, not the flag, but police brutality and inequality in various sectors of the country, and you have said that in part it Cause people view that as a denial of american, exceptionally of american exceptionalism. What does that mean? Well, interesting, because the NFL on Sundays has become a form of civil religion. You can find a whole lot more people in this country at football games on Sunday than in church were and the NFL his quite actively sought to run,

themselves in the flag, and also there is a certain amount of wrapping themselves in a religious like fervor, but is that based on adherence to religion, where's that about money. What's both I mean it's not pure artifice, but they did set out to wrap themselves in the flag during the nineteen. Sixty p. Rosella even said you know they. They basically we're gonna turn themselves into. You know this sort of patriotic institution in the middle of the Vietnam WAR. What was really pretty craven about the whole thing was that NFL owners were protecting their players and their financial investments in their players. By helping them stay out of the draft, they were fondling them into National guard units, local National guard units- if you went to Green Bay

constant and your young man trying to get into your national guard unit as opposed to getting shipped out to be a non you couldn't get in because it was full of Green Bay Packers same thing in Dallas, right, ok, the Dallas Cowboys filled up all the National Guard units, so in fact camp the scandal Life magazine didn't expos eye on it is the NFL has had this coming for quite a long time why? the NFL, as opposed to ITALY, baseball where the NBA was innocent. It was just a particular decision. the current made by any sport they ve been more aggressive and marketing themselves. That way, you know, football is oh, a war without death game looked that too early and not always without dead. In fact, particularly the victorian era, so I may have written and her book about this subject called the real all Americans that the birth of american football follows closely on the closing of the frontier and the end of the D. Indian, worse, I mean basic.

The college football is essentially founded about six months after little bighorn the frontiers closed, the transcontinental railroad is finished and There is really nothing else left to conquer the wilderness, conquered right and there's this fear in Victorian America that american men are becoming feminist and overcivilized, that there is a fear- and we have today by the way I governs alot- of how we look if philosophically at sports there is this in the row sees American arose sees this fear that the human body is being out stripped by our technology, and when that happens we get. little funny about our sports in this country. So this controversy about the kneeling during the anthem with interesting about. Parties. I feel like a lot People assume It's always been that whether the players come on the field during the anthem players, I started coming up on the field during the national anthem. In today

nine, two thousand and idea so that in ten years ago, so there was a moment in the sixties where PETE resell, I think for one of the Superbowl, is basically sent a memo. That said, you know I want everybody standing on the sidelines with their helmet under their arms standing at attention that that's fairly brief. What, as soon as every game becomes televised, they didn't want the audience watching the national anthem before well games? They wanted to watching commercials. Anthem wasn't even televised, particularly its only when the NFL makes a deal with the Pentagon. To start using Vienna Fellows a marketing vehicle for the. U S, military, that you start getting this the anthem rising of the NFL. Do too much of a big boardrooms too. I asked Rocky Bligh. Rocky Blair was a great Superbowl champion for the Pittsburgh Steelers, who had actually use the one of the few, and I fell players who did not get out of the draft that Vietnam Draft he ended up going to Vietnam is an infantry men got shot and blown up had shrapnel in in his legs,

didn't come back and play football worked his way back and wins a couple Superbowl with the Pittsburgh Steelers, and I asked him not too long ago. I was doing a interview with him, and I said you know why do you think people feel so strongly about this whole anthem thing in stadiums anyway? And he said I dont know guilt right right. If you talk to service men, if you talk to football players who served those guys like a Rocky Blair, is a little uncomfortable with the fact that if you look in any football stadium on Sunday may be one percent of the people in that stadium have any relation to the armed services. Maybe I mean that's what it is in this country today, right Europe, the people who serve our comprise about their comfort from about one percent of our population, as opposed to to Vietnam, when, during the draft amused significantly hard, american families had personal relationships to servicemen during the Vietnam, IRAN, we

don't anymore and that's a fact, and so that's a weird neuroses to me. You know what is this thing that we are doing as an audience that we are so captivated by this issue with the flag and service. If you look at NFL, players have studied the NFL player population for their relationship. The league is loaded with guys whose parents served who have brothers or sister serving some of them married women who served mean they actually probably have a strong relationship to the military. Personally, the average person, certainly than you were mania right. You know you this other phrase to describe what's going on and the pressure, to behave in a certain way. Not behave in a certain way has enforced. Patriotism is that we think it is involuntary pay.

it is a mere, not patriotism, its North Korea. You know that sets out simple right. Involuntary patriotism is it's a contradiction in terms and you think it some heightened because the present give about. Certainly, of course, you look. Presidents have gotten involved with football since Teddy Roosevelt sure you know Woodrow Wilson, Woodrow Wilson, wife at one point said it's a good thing that you know Princeton the football game because I dont think Woodrow could have taken in losing a football game and an election right. It's interesting to me how much of this, but just beneath the service, just beneath the surface is about economics, yes, by profit, and now we have issued Nike. So this whole time people thought conquer panic. There were sacrificing line. I think he has, and then it was a controversy, because Nike has his new ad campaign and a lot of people begin burning, Nike shoes in Signorina boycott, and then it turns out sales by thirty one percent yeah. So it is about business was about patriotism, whether there are intertwined when it comes to.

Does the american way. Yet I see me frankly yeah, but you know it's funny because, as I have always, I've always thought it calling Capron Ex message was incredibly muddled. You note, I applaud him for social activism. I applaud him for giving a lot of money to causes. He believes in that. Do no part of this. To me stemmed from an imposition of language, you know the NFL, airs who are still wanting to kneel on the sidelines it they get infuriated when they say it's not about patriotism, not about the anthem and you're like will, then why are you doing it during the anthem menu? The problem here is, but bodies are protesting. The flag visibility very upset about when they hear the description of this as protesting the flag penny resolve that linguistic issue. To me, the players movement again, which I applaud and in which I defend, but as it as a language person, I think that they, they muddled the message

actually, I knew what Tommy Psmith John Carlos wanted from the nineteen sixty eight olympics. I knew what Mohammed Ali warn him. When you were present run against people who one metals raise black glove fists on the metal gave up, there may actually ended up surrendering their metals. They had a very clear written agenda, a set of social justice issues that they had very clearly stated had very clearly thought out. Mohammed Ali again had a very clear set of beliefs. Anna and an agenda. Pillaging king always knew exactly what she was fighting for. I feel it calling capper neck. I personally feel like he has lacked the sort of diamond cutters- clarity that some of those other activists had in terms of reaching people will come up. You fixed sure, do it. I think it could be fixed. The message can be fixed but you know whence the last time you heard calling cabinet talk the alarm. I mean I've been what a couple years he might term a jerk prisoner. Nor do that's the thing

I heard calling capron it. I really had I had. I please leave Nike told not to talk about. That's interesting point am I I really dont know, because no one can reach a mean. It's not a criticism, it's more of a mixed, pressing, a certain tree osity about his method there's a murky this year. That term is interesting to me. So how does it as could diffused or resolve or is it gonna, be a continuing issue so long as some people think there's something, That's wrong in society were protesting. We're gonna have these two camps, but a very polarized into the future. Well, so calling capita has a collusion case against the and fell so well we'll have a legal resolution drew to whether or not he was in fact blacklisted or blackboard from the league that will be in a critical out common and turning point,

you know at some point, I do think that compromise is gonna have to be something more than a cypher that people are projecting onto. He lacks the hard edges that other great athlete activists have had to me. I gotta. Do you think that football will exist at its core, form given documented cases of concussions and and other deterioration of people physically after playing a game for wild. You think of that problem, exist in anything like its current form and fifty years. I do because I think the american public has decided in eight hundred different ways that it wants it, whether it's giving huge tax breaks to billionaire owners and devoting huge

ounce of city budgets, to their stadiums through not going around you. You were to go out and one I actually think. What's gonna happen if you're going to have to do, because I do think that injury, and particularly the concussion and neurological issue in football, is the black long. They have a black long problem, and so I think, what's gonna happen is what happened to the coal industry in this country, where they're gonna have to establish a fund, a large ongoing find and the price of doing business as an anti fell owner is going to be taken to the lifelong medical care of your employees, but it will, but Papa will continue because you put it. I could quote you about yourself. over and over again, you haven't you once wrote: football has come the liturgy of empire. Yes, that's hundred grand! Well, it's true, I dont think those are my words. was quoting girl. Yes, you have grown old someone. It sound you could have written it. It's a great phrase. I mean I've quoted it because I believe it you know I look, football is about taking it

moving other bodies out of the way to take territory ripe, very american lives. Without boxing will boxing exist? Any boxing doesn't exist in semi, its boxing's already been. it exists, but on a much smaller scale than it did. When I was a kid the NFL has, a stake power again I dont even under estimate the degree to which politicians want it if a commits all sorts of transgressions and and they get lot let off the hook and a lot of ways by law enforcement by regulatory agencies by city governments by the federal government. Is it very interesting. We support that league in ways that we dont support any other american business, and so I do think it's gonna stick around but, as I say, it's a workplace hazard, a hundred percent injury rate in that leave here. So you have a professional relationship with another legendary athlete, namely Arms from my friend lanterns to your friend, Lance aren't really were to books with him. Yes, he write anything

right you. Furthermore, I wouldn't say that where are we don't know any you did he say, If a boss become liturgy of empire, and I think that we do not say it- I dont relegate, doping and everything else. But no you, once wrote after you up came to understand and believe that he'd engage in this conduct and had doped to use them. Ireland, switches bad term by the way it is when we use that term. For next I wanna get into a debate about whether they were dirty till it was early Astley, but he did a thing. They got him in trouble and then you wrote a p saying you know you're trying to find your anger. Lord Land, something I can't find it. I've never found my indignation against bear bonds or Marian Jones, or I mean I just don't have it? I mean a firm immoral that I'm a moral subject, but I dont have I've, never had it been long before I met last, I didn't have it against

but is it because of the nature of that transgression or because you don't put them on a pedestal, and you look at them from they have done either in funny against cancer or in achieving something in sports, the known as ever energy before So if they have this other thing that they were doing, It doesn't bother, you know what doesn't bother me about. It is that I feel like we have as a society done a profoundly bad job of working through the philosophy of medicine, doping performance enhancement, we have again as a language person would dine incredibly poor job of defining what performance enhancement is why it's wrong. There was a study in two thousand sixteen from some dutch scientists who gave a p o to some cyclists riding up Mount VON too, which is a stage in the tour de France. They took a bunch of highly trained cyclists and they give half of them e p o and they gave half of them

a placebo and the writers on the appeal road actually slower? We actually dont know. There's very. This is I address shoddy, easier repo is ever throw Potan, which is a medicine that they give cancer patients to help build their red blood cells. Back athletes have used it to build, rub let red blood cells in competition in so we we first while we done poor job of defining these substances and the easiest thing for everyone to do his demonize or. But let me ask you, and because I come from northern order background in their rules and with respect things. You can say what it was. There is no intention. Eighty, but are you say maybe not saying this. The respect to all the people you mentioned. I bury bonds, Lance Armstrong, Marian Jones With respect to any of them, did they know there was a rule shirt and did they know we violate certainly are so so why can we be upset with them? For that we can begin you're, not. I think we can be upset with them upset with them to the level of May.

pariahs- of society- about, never dream millions of dollars and seeking the federal government on them surmounting the quality again proportionate. What I'm saying is it? I dont have the heart to judge an athlete who has skill in one skill, only as an incredibly ephemeral creature and is using something to recover from an injury or to get back on the bike to ride up another alpine another day in a three week by is through terrain that car transmissions have a hard time getting up? It's just never made sense to me personally to swim, judge those people, as you know, the worst members of our society. I did it just doesn't add up to me, but it's part of the problem that we put these people on pedestal. Yes, and so we can incredibly disappointed with politicians.

Two and we view them as heroes. We demand a purity from them that we do not demand from any other member of our art of our science, lower house or the White House. By give you another example, why is it that the founders of Snapchat can go to standard, make millions and millions of dollars exploring entrepreneurial opportunities, but, and she doubly basketball players if they take a free, Paris, sneakers or a meal there call criminals. Why is that in law. We spend a lot of time revising laws, understanding that our standards change from ear to ear. In some ways I am, concerned with the degree to which we make athletes live in other epochs. While we are, So in other words, an end see Doubleday player the terms of his scholarship

are exactly the same as they were in nineteen sixty meanwhile, and she doubly revenue. Tv revenue alone has gone from five hundred and fifty million dollars a year to a billion. It's almost becoming an equal justice under the law situation in the and suitable way, because we really creating a separate citizens last thing, because Europe, your career, spans, all sorts of amazing interviews- and I hope I presume Actually get cabinet to talk to you, but you were, I believe, the last person s journalist interview to paternal who was the head coach. I had football coach and pain date, ending of dependence very about him and when did or did not know. My opinions vary about him in battle. We don't have time to go through that horrible series of events can abuse that took place a Penn state. The question is

How does it feel to interview him when he was basically on his last breath? He was die of cancer. He was not well and just describe what that was like, given the complexity of that person, while it was, it was profoundly difficult and heart rending, because you know he was surrounded by his family. He was also flanked by lawyers. It was in some ways, awkward. Why do you think he agreed to do it because I think he was fighting for his legacy posthumous legacy, and I think he felt tat he had a chance with made to get some nuances and some subtleties across which I think were legitimate explanations of his behaviour. Being I think he had observed, mix motive, see now. I think I think he was justifying him. Some things to himself to use part of Israel is calculated strategy in part of it. I think was of no use trying to himself as much as to me Did you worry, but not yet be worried about people who are trying to burst their legacy and engage?

ensure aggrandizing. Publicity legacy, rising submerging dies and I try to do that and you did the whole structure I clearly stated that ill, my dad is sportswriter, so grew up at the knee, and it is a great sportswriter and of a certain type and he spent a lot of time a bursting the pretensions of a lot of the people that he covered here. you might Dan Jenkins was known, as really has always been eyes, very truthful sportswriter who quoted athletes talking the way they really talk, saying the things they really say. And not writing children's literature, which is what a lot of sports writing can evolve into. If you're, not really careful, you know fables right and I like Like talk a likely, I let you know what you know. I really love talking. Athletes most is when their older and right on the cusp of retirement, because they want to be understood. Athletes who have spent

years ins in basic silence, holding the media at bay. They hit, like thirty, eight thirty, nine forty years old and they start wanting to kind of talk to somebody and they want someone to understand the sacrifice or the inner driver that pushed him to do these extraordinary things. That's when their at their most interesting of the easiest mark in the world. For fur. Someone really a good interviewer is a great legendary athlete turning forty other violent wisdom. Who is the athletes who is still playing to bear in any sport? that you would like to interview when there on the cusp of retirement, what fun is to find someone who hasn't been fully cracked open? Yet someone who's been very reserved for a long time and then to try to get them to tell you a little bit about what they do Would we Tiger woods be interesting in the way described to interview? If he was

before coming on the cusp of retirement sure, any time someone lifts the lid on the ferrari. You know you really want to stare down into the engine and say: ok, we're headed that work You know what really drove you surrender Williams. I I've Serena Diddle autobiography back in two thousand and nine, but she was just becoming a eight player in two thousand nine and now she's an important player and as that's a big difference in so I would be really interested in talking to her over the next couple of years as she wines down giving every great player entering distinction, giving every great player longs to be an important pillar. Yes, absolutely Some of them are observing so with more suited for than others. Chris effort was. A great player became an important

player in a very, very subtle way, through the sheer unbroken grace of her conduct and that her sort of effect on the court became translated into a larger ethic. I think people found her incredibly ethical champion. I miss you gave back a point once in a grand slam final when the chair umpire missed the call and she didn't want it, she gave it back to the opponent. She said the ball is out that sort of thing, whereas pillaging king and marching and ever at a lower, were important politically important. You know Chris Everett wasn't political, but she was important and other way, so they know, but they all long for importance. They longed to believe that what they're doing matters and is meaningful for something more than than ego whose what everyone else yes and it is import. just sometimes not in the ways that they think. On that note, I can say you have already achieved important you're, good description but important.

You don't really on the show, thank you. as I said at the top of the show. Today is a very special day for me. It's a special anniversary. It's the one year to the day anniversary of my starting this past, and so after I got fired. Is being you his attorney. I wasn't sure what I would do next. I want to write this book and I wanted to continue having a voice on issues that I care about, communicate with the public. Try my hand at something completely new, and my brother gave me the opportunity to do it through his company and we give it a shot, and a year ago, to the day I walked into an office with Leon Panada, former Secretary of Defence and CIA director to see if we could have a conversation that anybody would want to listen to and a euro I can say thank you to all of you for tuning in for staying tune for paying attention It's been an amazing twelve months, the pact

to me is not about educating other folks alone and explore. What's going on in the world its also for me to another. and and learn and grow and educate myself. The two things about this it had been the most gratifying had been won the opportunity to meet and talk to at some length the most thoughtful interesting caring, intelligent people that you can find. In basically any field haven't come on a show. The talk about what's going on in America has, I think, there's Oh time as critical as now trying to make sense of. What's going on, and that the best moments it I've had on the past have been I have learned along with you in their allotted times when, when asking a against a question that I haven't thought of in advance, I listened to what they're saying, and hopefully I'm asking the question the popped into your head. When someone is talking about Mahler or someone's talk about criminal justice, or someone is talking about how we deal with foreign policy or russian intervention

in the election, and so it has been an honour and a pleasure for me to learn along with you, some time I read the reviews that we get an. Sometimes people don't like something's on show more often gratified to say people do like what they hear show under a single out one so on Twitter not too long ago. Somebody somebody put it. Question setting a who on here has helped you the most and processing Trump ISM and dealing with friends family who support, I'm thinking in terms of emotional well being and then a person who, I think I've answered a question from before cliff Gram, a cliff whose handle on twitters fish nerd, and you already responded as follows. He writes probably prepared for his super soothing delivery. Formed righteous indignation, and then you write sounds contradictory, but it's a very real thing and we

I hear you should know the team that works on stay tuned, laughed at that and appreciated it and realize we couldn't have put it any better ourselves, so we aspire to that I aspire to have a super soothing delivery. I aspire to be informed and there are occasions when I feel righteous indignation and that's maybe when the show was out. It's me compelling. The other thing I want to say is a thank you not just to the listeners who make this possible, but team. You know at the end of the show. Every week I read off a list of names in the credits and you know who they are, and you know how special. They are, but there are a lot of people who make this worth. A lot of people help me to develop my voice, people who help me get the guests, people who helped me sort through my thoughts over the weak people who are good at picking at the quest that I should answer, and so I M no, when you hear the names of the end misery, you appreciate that none of us would be possible and we would

be doing as well. If I didn't have the amazing team, both a cafe and Pineapple Street media in one of the folks, the genius behind Pineapple Street media is MAX. who comes often sitting here right now in the studio has no idea what about to say who is and said to me reminded me on those moments where sort of behind schedule and I'm not sure exactly what our forecast is going to be more willing to talk about an MAX whose wise, beyond his years, reminds me of something that I used to tell folks of my own office, but you sometimes forget make sure you having fun and some of the greatest moments that I hope to repeat going forward are not just in the studio but during the life show and at what am. I find his memories, because one of MAX is modest. Memories is city backstage at the APOLLO theatre before we were coming out with vast music

and MIA collected a bunch of questions from the audience that I was going to answer live in the moment and try to think of jokes on my towel and I might respond and I'm sitting backstage at the world famous APOLLO theater what about your friends. There may not have been a beer involved, thinking about jokes and think about how to answer your questions, and so I feel incredibly fortunate in life to be able to do something, that's fun, informative and then I get to learn from his well. So thank you for all of that, but that's not the only anniversary. Then I'm proud of and gratified to mention last week marked the eighteen month anniversary of my being fired from my office, and I don't say that to belabor the fat. I was fired, but to mention it also was the occasion last week of my hosting along with you and him, my successors. U S attorney are, first annual alumni dinner real nice gathering of about two hundred of my former colleagues from the use attorneys.

And it was an evening of camaraderie fun, discussion, war stories, reliving old time and they may or may not have been a beer involved and in I told them that when I speak on the park ass, I speak of them. Often I think of them often- and I just want to mention not only my thanks to the folks in the pot cast into the listeners out there, but to the colleagues who helped make me who I am who helped teach me what it means to be a public servant and without whom I wouldn't be here. So when you're lucky the die? Is me from time to time it's important to say, and I it is because I have a studio in a microphone to be thankful. So What are you guys are doing out? There remember be thankful for what you have thankful for the people who listen to you. Even if you don't have a past and thankful that you'd have funding what you're doing. I feel very lucky

That's it for this episode of stay tuned thanks my guest Sally Jenkins, if you like the show rate and reviewed on Apple podcast, every power, review help new listeners find the show his want from can cosgrove. He calls the show quote a common sense approach, slash analysis to our current political dumpster. and Jean Gina Smith, yes to Jesus, says had no idea. Comic sands was uncool. Thanks for that news, you can use those said miracles it's about news in politics to them. To me. At present, With the hashtag ask Creek or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight at six, six, nine, for pre, or you can send me an email to stay tuned. Cafe. Dotcom statehood is presented by CAFE its produced by,

he Multinational Street media cat Erin Prosper, Ruby, Henry Velocities, generalise, Berman, Joel Level and MAX lives Our music is by Andrew Dust and special thanks to Julia Doyle, Jeff Eyes, him in Boston to MAR Suffer and Jake Mcafee. I'm prepare our stated.