From cafe and the vocs media podcast network welcome to stay to I'm free bernard. You shouldn't think about these things is a backlash so much as a front lash if you well. That is, I think, if I look at american history, I would say that fact change actually works much better. Usually then, slower change, that's heather Cox richard She's, the author of the new book democracy awakening. And the state of america she's also finished an amazing run hosting the cafe history show now and then would joanne freeman heather history, professor at Boston college, has taken the political world, storm with her letters from an american today lee, concise, summary of political news that uses history to provide meaningful context. Her newest argues that a small group of americans war on american democracy and offers a hit

Dorothy roadmap, for how the new can move on from the polarization and chaos of the trump years. There now also discuss the historical origins of the terms liberal and conservative pesky nineteen thirty seven. Anti I d manifesto and the ongoing cultural debates over how to teach american history. That's coming up statehood. Support for the show comes from the national women's law centre, courts and public policy our key battleground for gender justice, and that's where you can find national women's law centre working tirelessly to create change for over Fifty years, then, no women's law centre, has fought and won for women and for all of us for protecting pregnant workers to fighting for equal pay.

An ending harassment and violence. There are dedicated to shaping our democracy and future for the better, join them visiting end elsie dot. Org support for the show is brought to you by right we heard tired of limited bonuses and capital rewards, and your current brokerage account switch to robin hood and boost your portfolio move your assets, if to enjoy an unlimited one percent bonus, no restrictions, no cap, whether you transfer, one hundred thousand dollars and receive a one thousand dollar bonus or transfer two million dollars and get an impressive twenty thousand dollar bonus visit, robin hood dot com, slash vocs to claim your bonus terms, apply to the bonus c4 bonus terms at robin hood: dot. Com investments offered the robin hood financial llc. Investing is risky.

The exciting news folks stay tuned with preet is on the docket again We're up for a signal, a word in the news in politics, category signal away, Recognize the best in pakistan and we need you and the jury box please had to capital. counselor signal to cast your vote and help the cafe team get a winning verdict. That's carried out come slash aside g nl, you can also find the lincoln. The episode show notes, remembered poles close on October fifth Thank you, as always for your support. Now, let's get questions hey folks, I'm on the roads, week I'm actually in my hotel room at this moment at the code conference in central california, what news to ignore so as not to talk about some. Big items that happened over the last number of days in a lot of questions about them, This question comes in an email from bruce. Can you

I'm on a senator Menendez indictment. What's your reaction, both as a former prosecutor? and as a new jersey and well as both a kind of appalled, not ultimately super surprise. People will recall. This is the second time for senator, and as a new jersey. He was charged several years ago, the federal crimes, those charges he fought vigorously ended up in a hungary and the department of justice decided not to proceed. You might think that, after being charged federally evenly survive that I feel you might want to stay in the slow narrow after that, but doesn't appear so far based on the allegations that are pretty strong in the indictment. But that is senator Menendez. His way so so the indictment charges a lot of things, but at the essence of it, the alleged scheme between bobbin ended. senator and his wife and three business people with ties to Egypt is essentially a bribery scheme consisting of a quid pro quo, which that latin phrase it comes out from time to time in criminal matters it in federal court, essential the government has to prove is that someone like me,

but authority or public responsibility was paid. Some a value in extent for taking some official act nor official actions. That's the quid pro quo, the avenues in the diamond, been paying attention to the news at all relating to the quid do something of value is fairly overwhelming in kind of interesting and eyebrow raising, among other things, prosecutors alleged that in a search of bananas, his house, they found four hundred and eighty thousand dollars in cash bit more than most people keeping their house in envelopes and and clothing and other areas surreptitiously are the most. Remarkably, some of those envelopes, according to the environment committee the dna and fingerprints of one or more of the people who allegedly paid the bribes. I never got that lucky. I don't recall in any case it ever brought. We ve got a lot of bribery cases it is also the matter of the mercedes benz, the minute his wife to control of this also living in evidence of the quo official actions dominant, took on behalf of the three businessmen

There are allegations that he acted on legislation willing to funding there would aid Egypt. There were caution people, because there have been cases before the way up to the supreme court that have narrow, basis and what could be considered official action so bring court, is held in a somewhat controversial case. Mcdonnel named after the former governor virginia some years. though, that the mere arranging of meetings by the public official in exchange for something of value doesn't necessarily constitute an official act, we'll have to see how that evidence plays out, but I still think it's pretty strong, both with respect to the quid and was back to the quo. The other thing people sometimes forget is it's a three word phrase quid pro quo. You have to also prove the pro meaning that the thing of value was given for the was of the official act and the official life was taken, at least in part because of the thing, a value that was provided- and I think here just by way of influence If a huge amount of dollars, given you have official action taken, You also have something about the state of mind

bob and hinders the argument that the prosecutors will make us if it is legitimate money that he claims he took out of legitimate bank accounts over a period of time. The it is argued that this is a lot of money for some. has been set up. Salary for a number of years and also of its legitimate income. some other source. Why wasn't listed in this financial disclosure? The forbes indictment says that it was not now does Bob Menendez have any defense at all yeah there's always some defense. He can mount a defense, as I said, he might take the position that supreme court, precedent and other court precedent allows him to take the official actions at he took, and he might argue also, although this has fallen short and cases, and I myself am overseen Then he voted and ways of other people in his caucus voted and other people oppressed. The I loaded consistent with his conscience and its public record. wasn't because of the money he received? We shall probably than I, in receiving at all of the world How does that, as I mentioned,

given the dna and the fingerprints, the also might have some argument. I've seen this argued, but I think it falls at the end of the day, given the evidence that appears to be at the government's disposal that official I Shan t, talk are protected by the speaker, debate clause in the constitution and he can't be held liable for that. I think that comes up against the barbershop. but will have to see. I adore observer missions about the fact that the environment and the ensuing discussion there is, of course, in the system, our system, a presumption of it. But many many senators and democratic side as at the time of this recording, but have the democratic carcass said. Basically, they ve seen enough and have called for his resignation, their fellows and including, among other people, fellow senator from the state of new jersey, corey booker republicans will say: that's political, not principled, because they think that, given that Menendez is on the ballot in twenty twenty four, if he's hobbled by federal diamond hanging over his head. The Democrats want to get rid of him quick The governor new jersey, full murphy, can substitute what else in the sea who to have a better chance

the prevailing in twenty twenty four and help the democratically descended politics certainly enters into it. Probably little bit, maybe for some people significantly, but also there there's a principle involved- and that is when someone has been alleged of this kind of misconduct, whether not at the end of the day, does a conviction. It doesn't. With evidence that he violated his oath as a senator there's enough evidence. They didn't ask things about his finances to the senate, as is required to in financial disclosure, I think at the end of the day, as someone who is not fit to hold office Fine I'll make it whatever happens at the end of his case. The fact that you have Joe Biden as the president has appointed as the: u s attorney general in washington, somebody's been accused of a lot of things by republicans and they saw fit and appropriate. My We're off is led by Damon Williams in southern to new york to charge sitting senator something you do lightly to me gives the lie to the constant refrain by republicans that the department of just

This had become weapon ized for partisan, democratic interests. If that description were true- and it gets bandied about all the time inspector donald trump there's no way in Hell? They'd be indicted, sitting in aid states, democratic, senator and for that matter, as we ve talked about before many times authorized the indictment of hunter Biden, the sitting residents own son and by the way is one more incidental remark was getting attention in the indictment is a cash in the home. The gold bars and mercedes some of this stuff he ended. The indictment, maybe for parochial reasons, really strikes me and I find to be disgusting of true thereafter. Nations that, during the use, attorney selection process under Joe Biden Bobby as a senator. In the same way, the senator humor recommended me bobbin ended as the senior senator had some role in recommending who use attorney should be in the district of new jersey asked during the interviews during the screening process candidate, as outlined in the indictment whether or not he would take a look at the case of a particular time

It was one of the indicted figures in the current climate and that and ended in the interview process. For someone to become the chief federal law enforcement officer of his state. was asking because allegedly who is receiving. Bribes was asking about a particular case and looked to be interfering in their case and when the candidate that he was interviewing said well. It seems at my firm has some interaction without defended, and I would have to refuse myself from consideration of that case. What about an end as do according to the indictment? He didn't recommend that candidate. He think someone else. The bottom line is its own breaks the law with its a quid pro quo or interferes with the justice process as bad as it seems to have done. Although he gets a dane court and will see it should be heard, That needs to be criticised, for there is a democrat or republican. This question comes in an email from Michel who asks dear pre. What was your reaction to it?

Judges ruling the new york ages case against from mine simply while real expecting that what happens now. Of course, referring to the bombshell opinion by judge in new york state, this a state non federal court in a case has been pending for while, if and overshadowed understandably in for many reasons by the fao pending in diamonds, are come every couple of months against out from this case, brought by attorney general of new york, Latisha James has been gradually unfolding in the court system, quietly more quietly than the criminal cases. and, as you recall, education the it in on your brought alleging the dial from and his companies, will greatly inflating, exaggerating the value of his assets, who is making those misrepresentations too? Well. Banks and insurance in various transactions and loans. Now normally allegations like that similar criminal. In this case, it civil there I'll buy a jury at the end of the day, but there's procedure known in a law that can be taken advantage of by both sides and was in this matter,

which is a summary judgment, motion, meaning that on some issues, it might be so clear that a judge can make a legal decision. and narrow the case. It ultimately goes before the jury in this matter. Trump and his team made a summary judgment motion in their favor that was denied, but the Agee's office also made a partial summary judgment motion on the ground that the judge could decide that fraud was clear and the judge basically agreed with it. As a forth in detail in the opinion in matter after matter down from inside dreaded the value of, among other things. His properties does an example that fairly fame that people are talking about and it goes to his triple x, apartment interim tower a place by the way he's lived for years and years and years, and he may representation. There was thirty, thousands were feed, then just about eleven thousand square feet. The judge said you know a little bit of discrepancy can be understandable, maybe ten percent, or maybe twenty percent, but not thirty thousand

virtual to thousand and one of my favorites answers from the opinion. The judge wrote quote open of this order of magnitude by real State developer sizing his own living space of decades can only be considered. Fraud. End quote, and there are other examples like that is well. In addition, as people have in discussing the judge, ordered a cancellation of certain from business certificates that could shut down varies. Entities will see how that plays out there. When you asked the question, what happens next? Well, two things. First, they will certainly be an appeal by trump's lawyer. The second thing that if a decision stands and the appeal is denied is there will be a trial trial, will not be about whether or not there was fraud has been determined by the judge. It'll be simply about whether not donald trump has to pay a penalty and discouragement and how much that'll be, and that this point is looking like it'll be a lot of money,

they too I'll the right back with other tax, which would soon, after this Support for this. it comes from the national women's law centre, the courts in congress. Key battleground for gender justice and that's where you can find national women's law centre working tirelessly to create change for over fifty years, the national in law, centre, has fought and won for women and all of us like, when they instituted protections for pregnant workers by securing fair treatment laws in several states along the east coast or when they helped push through a president executive order that result, higher pay for federal contractors and state minimum wage workers or in twenty twenty one when they lead the way, a more equitable judiciary, but

Hoarding more women of color appointees, that's just the tip of the iceberg of the critical work the national women's law centre has done, and you too can support their efforts there alone force and advocacy for women and girls in the. U s striving to create a better country for the next generation and dedicate, to shaping our democracy and future for the better learn more and show your support by visiting and w elsie dot org Support for stay tuned comes from simply safe. It's the holidays, So you might be spending more time away from home than usual. But did you know that, according to fbi, data break ins and property thefts spike this time of year,

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Other cocksucker, is a historian of american political history who has a new blog tracing the trial and travails of our experiment with democracy. We discuss how our past we provide inspiring roadmap to a more perfect union, professor heather cox, Richardson. Welcome back to the show it's such a pleasure be here- pre heather, it so great to have you congratulations on the new book which will spend some time talking about, but before we get to the book, I want to both congratulate you and thank you for the amazing run on our part cast now and then would join freeman. What are treated was to have you as part of the cavern family. I wasn't that far

on you know when we re back of it. It was a little hard to to realize what a great product it was and then, when we look back over his hack wow, we did a lot of really good work and the team was spectacular such a pleasure to work with the cafe team, great team, great country, ITALY, as your question, if you did a pie, chart, maybe his own for a question that depicted how much you think you talk people in the past and also to pick it, how much you learned in preparing for each podcast without tightrope. Look like with a little hard to tell what you're teaching other people it's at least fifty fifty and the reason for that at me. From my perspective, one of the key reasons for that is that even though there was new factual material, the magic, I think was talking with the producers joanne about the meaning of what we were doing.

So here we cover stuff that I thought I knew and it would turn out to be a real thing. You know much larger discussion about. You know the nature of presidential power in foreign affairs, for example, so that sexual side of it- was actually really sophisticated as a general matter. You write, you write books and you do some other things do the audio medium cause you think about how to import history. Lessons will be differently sincerely differently, because remember I'm a college professor first and so we're very used to operating in an oral setting. I will That is my favorite medium. I like radio, I like pod ass. I am not so keen on television, which is much shorter, much more expensive and seems far less me immediate to me one of the things that the pandemic did for a lot of us, I think, was there it gave us the space and the new technologies to create a much more direct

relationship with an audience. It feels a great deal like a college classroom, so I don't It necessarily made me rethink the way I was going to teach history or talk about history, but it gave me a lot more tools to do that and you know or should enable Joanna me to work together and eat. People thought we'd been friends forever and we really hadn't. We got to know each other me we had. We knew each other was because of what we do, but We got to know each other during the pandemic, doing a bunch of other podcast together and then you know than we ended up at your suggestion making upon cast of our own which was you know, that's how I got no joy and we had a great time I'm getting to know each other through. History and through the technology on applied, podcast amazing thanks again so you're here in part to talk about your new book, gradual, thank you very much. It's called democracy awakening notes on this. aid of america? I remain talk to you about this book when you're beginning to write it and conceptualize about it. Because

A lot of people wanted to be. Your editor explained evokes why this book, and why now It's interesting that you mentioned early on, because originally the thought behind this book was to bring together essays that covered the questions that people were asking me every day. How did the parties would sides. What does liberal mean? What the southern strategy. How does the electoral college work- and it was just- to be a series of short essays that covered all those things, but what happened. Was that the more I thought about it and the more I conceptualize the book. I recognise that it was a book about how we got here where here, is and how we get out of here, and I wrote I still kept the esa- format and I wrote thirty short chapters that took us from the nineteen thirty to the election of donald trump, the trump president's and then that the period serve rico.

Actual lies the period since then, and when I left the book for about three mm still gonna go off and get married and stuff. I came back and I read it and I recognise that the book was too. the story. I had never intended for it to that felt as if it had grown from everything. I have talked about and learn from my readers from people, like you know the cafe, producers and joanne from feedback that I god on the letters I write every night and what I recognized was that the book was making a much larger argument about the use of language in history to either protect democracy or to destroy it. So I have thrown out that initial draft and re writing about eighty percent of the book to get. What is you know, I hope now in your hands. I just got my copies yesterday. That tells us about where we are here in amerika at this moment, but also talks about the history of amerika. The history democracy in america, in the history of how people have tried to destroy that demand,

I see, and then also the story of how we can reclaim it. So it became a really different book than I originally envisioned and in a funny way it it really doesn't feel like mine. It feels like I was the person building the pan. While there was this conversation going on around me and to that degree I sort of feel like a parent with a sort of child who ended up stewing, something really smart that had nothing to do with me. Thinking now, where did that even come from? But that's the story of how it got here and why it down here, I think, maybe, is part of that whole idea that it's just a reflection of the where we are in this moment and how we really would like to use this moment to move forward and get out of it. I have your other books all had some version of this that it morphs into some indifferent as you engage in writing and the research process or, as is different from the other books in that regard. This feels very different than the other books, because my other books with, but that perhaps there

section of how the south, when the civil war, which, until literally it was getting reviewed, I kept running to a friend of financing. Is it a book? Michael Michael's? It really a book you know, and this one, unlike the ones that are really heavily empirically based where you know that wounded. Knee massacre happened in a certain way, and that was the way it was. Gonna have to be told or reconstruction happened in a certain way. This book is much more conceptual and it's so you know my joke was four years on from the years, I'm working on it that the title was all I now, because it's much more conceptual and- and I think what was in my head- and I don't think I've ever had a book kind of right itself in that last that last nation, and once I could see it once, I could see what was what the book was going to be. The actual writing of that second draft was very quick but the getting there took a long time who's the audience for the book. We not funny the

initial audience was intended to be my readers and people who just wanted to know about american history and wanted to know about how we got to this moment in american history, and you know just wanted basic stuff explained, and I think it does that you know what is the constitution and how does it work in illinois at seven? ages in a where did the the american revolution come from? You know. How did we get to this moment in history, so it it somebody early on called in american history for dummies, a n part of that serious. But I should think that other people will find it interesting, not just people who want to have a sense of of how we got to where we are There is actually a fairly sophisticated historical theory now running through it, and also there's a lot about politics that just people may not have seen in, for example, the middle section. The book, which is about the trump years the stripping out of the noise in that period in of course, so much was happening all the time when you strip out here

at fired. She said this. This letter got sent when you strip that out, you end up with a really chilling portrait of an attempt to create an authoritarian america and so that political side of it. I think will be of interest to a different group of people. So my audience was the my readers and yet, at the end of the day, I think it's probably got broader reach than that will hopefully entire stay tuned listener ship potential readers as well? So, let's start at the beginning, first sentence: first, paragraph of chapter, one right. Today's crisis began in the nineteen thirties and I'm paraphrasing as I continue when republicans who opposed to present franklin delano Roosevelt new deal contemplate an alliance with other people and use the word conservative to signify their opposition. Would you mean by that

very deliberately those people who hated after years, use of the government to regulate business and those people who hated empty hours. use of the government to begin only begin to level the racial playing field in america began to to think about an alliance, and they start to think it after after targets reelected in nineteen thirty six when they recognize it is not just a blip that this is a real sea change in the american government, and so a ninety thirty seven. They begin to contemplate working together officially and they write a document, that's known as the conservative manifesto. That document gets leaked to the newspapers and is lay everybody backs away from it. Everybody and elected office backs away from it, because the racist democrats, who don't like the civil right side of empty, are wanna be seen is criticising their own president and the republicans who hate the business regulations of the new deal feel like they can critics safety are more effectively from outside the party, so people back

from that concern preventive manifesto and what they meant by that. The conservative manifesto was that it was an attempt to get rid of the new deal and it's really specific we're gonna get rid of business regulation. We're gonna, get rid of a basic social safety net that should be done by churches. We're gonna, get rid of government from Sean of infrastructure, because that be handled by private industries, there's really money to be made there and we rely on states, rights and home rule out the idea of getting rid of any attempt to the federal government to protect civil rights. They back away from that, but they keep that concept that to get rid of the new deal is conservative and one of the things. The points I wanted to make in that first chapter was that conservatism, the ideological concept of conservatism, as it was really formulated by Edmund burke during the french revolution, was nothing like that at all. It was in fact, in a sort of the opposite in which it said you should never tried to legislate accord

to an ideology because pretty soon you're trying to make the people fit the ideology rather than the government for the people and that concept that this idea of getting rid of this new deal government that actually worked incredibly well from nineteen thirty three to nineteen. Eighty one is conservative. misnomer that comes from that particular moment and when I went on to talk about was the use of word conservative by Abraham, lincoln to say, wait a minute. What we do is conservatives in understanding of the word is to preserve the best of what is in our past and I'm trying to preserve the declaration of independence. So doesn't a quest to have people be equally for the law and have a say in their government, as promised in the declaration of independence. That's what's really concern We is in america, and so was that first chapters and attempt to reclaim the word conservative to contrast with those,

movement conservatives as they became known once they became a political movement in the nineteen fifties and take it back for people who want to protect the american principles. I just want to talk about the dynamic a little bit, because, if possible, servitors m is is to preserve the status quo, it happens to be the case. that we live dinner and a time in the nineteen twenty. for the new deal of little regulation and rigour Nations were being struck down by the supreme court and the new deal, as implied actually definitional by its name, was new and so was an utterly predictable bosnian. I stay if anywhere else. Where, suddenly you had sweeping regulation, which I think has proven to be a very good thing for the country and very good thing for capitalism, but in the wake of a slew of new regulations being passed? Isn't it only natural and probable that you're going to get a conservative movement that wants to turn that back doesn't actually conform with one of the basic understandings and definitions of conservative? Will it

yes, but after we are really very carefully ties what he does with the new deal in the traditional american patterns. So, for example, really careful to talk a lot about his predecessor. Theodore Roosevelt, who is using the government in a progressive where many cities part of the progressive party, a generation or two before an anti are tied very care. Lee, and Abraham lincoln, who was the one who said truly conservatism in this country, is protecting equal rights and a right to have a say in your societies We actually get the rise of an expanded government using the government to protect equal rights in the united states and trying to help people at the very bottom through things like new fine, actual measures and new economic measures. We get that actually in the eighteen, six, he's with Abraham lincoln, so well after calls it. New deal he's really using that

from as a political term to talk about we're not going to give you the same old deal that people like herbert hoover are giving you sang to you actually you're going to be fine, even though you're starving in the streets, where give you a new deal, but that new deal is pattern on our past and that's you know they do that really deliberately. Ironically, devils advocate further from every minute with some might say, it's odd to locate the origin of the crisis in the nineteenth When you know some small subset of political figures and business figures, wrote this a festival, because a new deal one right, the supreme court back down it became very popular in america. Present roosevelt was elected for times and took a very very long period of time, as you trace the history of in your book for the origins in the nineteen thirties to come anywhere, close to being a dominant or power political force and one might argue, given the initial success of the new deal. The persuasiveness or the new deal with

Some failure on the part of new deal, democrats or progressive generally, that allowed the small group of people who had this manifesto back, then I can thirties to gain power I actually really like that line of questioning, because while the new deal was extraordinarily successful until nineteen eighty one, of course, the next generation or too since then, has been real designed to tear that apart and the reason I say in thirty, seven with that particular document was because the principles that are outlined in that document are exam. actually those that we saw until recently and the republican party. Now, once we got the rise of tromp, we got the republican party morph into something that is very different in a base to, for example, in victor or bonds. Hungary, which is the use of a strong federal government to impose an ideological set of religious values on states like florida, for example, but that rise of the idea. That

would make america great again. If you well, which is a line from reagan tear down the new deal rather than trying to build on it or trying to adjust it that come straight from there. Nineteen thirty seven document I mean that you really could impose it in the present and people would say. Oh yes, I absolutely recognise that the question about why we got to a point where it was possible for them to gain the traction that they have, I think, is a really interesting one and to me it comes from the fact that that idea of a liberal democratic government, the idea that the government should do those things you know regular business, protect Basic social safety net promote infrastructure, protect civil rights that became so widely shared in the united states. It became known as the liberal consensus, and that was not a reflection of the democratic party. The liberal consensus was embraced by people

on both sides of the political I'll, and it was so widely shared that in nineteen sixty a political scientist actually advised political candidates to stop focusing on the principles of democracy see the way people had been doing so assiduously since empty are to stop talking about because everybody agreed. There was no to win elections. If you kept harping on these things that everybody agreed about the way to win elections, he argued was to hammer together coalitions that felt that they would get more out. that consensus, then than the other. Leader would give if you voted for for that person. So what we saw in the nineteen sixty was a real backing away on the part of the Democrats of of articulating their values and the values of I presume you sought and among traditional republicans as well, but what they did is it opened a pathway for these movement conservatism articulate a vision of the united states that was coherent. It was

story of a little guy against an empire that was destroying it through taxation and it was, story that a lot of people wanted to be part of, because they wanted to believe that their votes meant something and meant something not only for themselves but for a larger story and that that changing use of ideology and language in the nineteen sixties into the nineteen seventies, I think really mattered. I mean we get. We get Nixon out of that annexes. Eighteen. Nineteen sixty eight campaign, where he deliberately does exactly what that political theorist talked about and then being by nineteen seventy seven weeks, I have star wars and the idea of the the individual taking on the empire- and you know, reagan rises to the presidency just three years later. I wonder if there's any parallel between this history that you describe where again as as I understand, is

But people don't like the new deal and they create a manifesto to take some time to take root over the course of many decades. Similarly, a couple decades after the new deal, you have a great democratic majority. You have John F Kennedy getting elected president when he passes after his assassination. You have Lyndon johnson take over. And you have the great society- and you have a guy who gets very few votes named. Barry goldwater who some also say is the father of modern conservatism, have had you place him in the ark from the thirties, did today very cold water and his ideas about conservatism, I'm in a back up a little bit Harry goldwater because Goldwater, of course his? is famous for his articulation of the conscience of a conservative in nineteen sixty, but he didn't write that that was written by albert bizarre an elbow puzzle, of course, is the close friend and brother in law of weymouth buckley junior, who is, is in

in fifty five is gonna start national review on the heels of the nineteen. Fifty four brown versus boarded education decision having a set that up, I want to go start right there with a brown versus board of education decision, because those movement conservatives really couldn't get a foothold in the nineteen fifties, because americans liked the liberal consensus they liked their new highways, they liked their homes in the post world war. Pier the post war period. They like their cars, they like their union jobs, they liked all those things and when people like William S, buckley junior kept trying to get them to get rid of the new deal, get rid of that liberal consensus. They thought he was bonkers. You know they wanted. part of it so in nineteen. Fifty one, of course, are william F, Buckley Jr, writes god, man at yale, the superstitions of academic freedom. which he says listen, we gotta stop trying to persuade voters based on arguing. for why the new deal is a bad thing. We need to indoctrinate people with concepts of.

janet iii, and what he called the free markets individualism and it's fifty one again that that book doesn't really get much traction at all. In fact, He won, but then in fifty four we get the brown versus sport in education decision and with that, the supreme court under former governor of California Earl war and who is a republican by the way. The supreme court argues that the federal government must use its power under the fourteenth amendment to protect civil rights in the states and with that buckley and his elk have the ability to reach back to a different american history, and that too in american history is reconstruction, where, after the civil war, when the federal government began to use it's power through the fourteenth amendment and also through the establishment of the department of justice in eighteen, seventy to protect the rights of black americans in the states

when that happened, and especially after the ratification of the fifteenth amendment. Eighteen, seventy when that happened unreconstructed white, racist southerners insisted that they hadn't objected to the idea. black voting or black rights on racial grounds, which of course at that point, was unconstitutional and could land them in jail. They begin and to say what they really were worried about was the fact that if you let black people vote and black men votes of way, it would be in this period. What they would do is they would vote for politicians who would give them stuff in a roads and highways and schools and hospitals, and if you did that, the only way that those things could be paid for was with white tax dollars and what that meant than was black voting, was essentially a redistribution of wealth from white people to black people, so black voting was essentially socialism. The reason I went back to that was because a nineteen, fifty five waiver buckley junior pigs that

argument up in national review which he starts that year. He promises to tell the as he's had violated business man's side of the story, but one of the first things he does is he picks up a writer who caused we hammers on this idea that black rights teens socialism, so it happens in that period. Is we get a whole new embrace of the other concept from reconstruction, and that is the idea that a real american is a man who does what anything from the government. He just wants to work hard and make his own way and in eighteen, sixty six eighteen, sixty seven in that early period of reconstruction. That argument took physical shape in the form of the american boy. So the cowboy starts to stand against this idea of the government working to protect individuals in the states, especially black individuals, but also after the new deal working for four regular americans, and it's that I

that when america really needs to stand up against communism is a cowboy that gives us only things like bananas. And raw high and the loan ranger, but also good, since the rise of bury goldwater as the symbol of somebody who stands against communism or socialism in the nineteen fifties and into the nineteen sixty so goldwater is a fascinating and really complicated figure began in so many ways he rat represents the different definitions of what the american government should be concordant was he was willing Buckley much more important I think goldwater was enormously important. No, I think he was very important first far because How well he symbolise the cowboy. He was a handsome man in that cowboy hat and he got a lotta press because of that, but also because his political supporters recognise that they had.

Do an end run around what even by then they were calling the the eastern establishment and they started direct marketing, so they bring in into that movement, conservative fold a lot of southern and western transplants during the new deal who had gone to those regions to work for the war industries they bring into movement conservatism a lot of people, who otherwise would have been apathetic or might have continued to be, a crass, so he's a really important transitional figure. I think a very fast it is. We talk about this, but the dynamic, a backlash in american politics, and I wonder if there's any historical evidence or support for the proposition or that addresses the issue would put that way, that this debate in arguing for an implementing, incremental change versus, very substantial and indeed perhaps even radical change, If you do incremental change, you less like

we get a backlash that undoes that change? Whereas if you do radical change in some might argue, the new deal was like that you're far, more likely to provoke a very, very strong, unified response. Does history teaches anything about the pace of change and what kind of backlash ensues I would say that if it teaches us anything, it's that you shouldn't think about these things as a backlash so much as a front lash if you well. That is, I think, if I look at, american history. I would say that fact change actually works. Much better. Usually, then, slower change, the problem with it Does it there are no, what hit him well. I think he had partly because there I know what hit him but more that people get excited by it and they begin to see that this new system is going to work really well for them. The problem is when it comes

on the other side, and it has worked well, people get really complacent and I'm not even talking just about the stuff. I talk about in a book, but you think, for example, of the the western planes in the great care period and it seemed as if the cattle rush about eighteen, sixty, six and eighteen eighty six was gonna just be in incredible gold rush- and it was in the early years, but very quickly- the resources get over grazed their way too. The cows, honour our beehives on the plains and then there's a tear, bill terrible winter in the mid eighteen eighties. That just destiny, the herds, especially the herds in the north, and when that happens, The rangers are really happy to turn to the federal government and to have the federal government help them figure. The whole system out and as soon as that happens, though they're like okay, we got it now we're going to do it our way again and they take over and once again started to abuse the resources in the great plans and that

in american history over and over and over again stated, there is more coming, after this support for for show, is brought to you by robin hood. There are lots of ways to better chile booster investments these days and even more options on where to stash make the smart move by transferring your brokerage account over to robin hood weather you're transferring one hundred thousand dollars or two million don't miss out on robin hood offer of an unlimited

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and they've done this. In the face of clear mounting evidence, there is not a crisis. This was all part of the plan which oil companies listen laid out in a memo. It has since been called victory my mom because it lays out what victory would mean for this coalition of industry is you're, saying there is actually a memo almost like a literal smoking gun. That says what victory means for us is to confuse the public and make them think that climate change is a real gas beds, that's not this weekend unexplainable a decades long campaign to use the power of science against itself. Allow unexplainable for new episodes every wednesday. So we talked about the manifesto, which I know very well.

What're. You mentioned him in passing already, but in this arc of conservatism in america words, wild reagan stand if very cold. Water is an important symbol of that move. Ronald Reagan is the one who makes the movement conservative ideology palatable to ordinary americans, and he is deeply deeply problematic for a number of reasons. The most, I think, because he is the one who takes the language that Nixon had developed. The idea of us first it's them and adds to it a genteel appearance, a car voice and introduces the idea that we now call political technology, the idea that you can make people act based on. a false image rather than on reality, so one of the things but I find really interesting about reagan- is that he rises to power in california and reporters

I just can't believe what they're seeing they laugh at him, because he makes everything up. I mean he just he just makes it up and they're. Like you know, this is so funny. I mean how could this anybody ever take this guy seriously and the great example of that is he used to talk all the time about all the people he said I lived as a lifeguard and the other lifeguards on the beach were. Like you know, nobody ever starts to drown on our watch. How is it that you're, you know, saving these dozens of people all the time, but it was a. It was a store. hurry, and it was a story. People really liked, and once that ball got rolling in other problem with it was that, when Reagan put some of the principles of movement concern tourism into action. As president, you know from the vote in the beginning, it was clear to his budget director David stockman that this was not going to work. You know when he fed all the numbers into the computers at the office of management and budget. The rather

in saying that the cutting all of those social programmes and cutting taxes in cutting regulations to move money upward for supply side economics. The idea that if you concentrated money at the top people would invest in the economy and they would provide. What more jobs and on the boats would rise together when he put those numbers into the computers at the office of management budget too peter said well, you're gonna blow out the deficit, so what they did assiduous reprogram the computers and quickly the idea that supply side economics worked when in fact it never did became such an article of faith among those people wedded to it and wedded to all the things that brought with it the racism sexism that the republican party increase wade double down on telling that great story, even though it was it didn't reflect reality We're in this moment now been. Obviously, we ve gotten through to a period in which the republican party

is simply divorced from reality. I mean you get people like marcia blackburn, senator from tennessee, who has a twitter feed. That is just pure fantasy. I think this moment is incredibly fascinating, because what happens when you know the fear of creating a false political world and getting people to act on that have never did I seen gone to the next step, and that is once you have used that false reality to garner power. What happens when the people recognise that you ve lied to them? and it appears to me I'm watching this play out real time now, and it appears to me what I'm seeing is some of those but who have bought into that false world. Simply up on the idea of government is anything other than a way to punish the people they hate, and so they don't or if their own lifestyle gets destroyed. They just want to hurt somebody, but what happens to the other people today,

I turn on the people allied to them. Do they become apathetic again, which is what political theorists suspect is going to happen or do they take over the government? I mean it's, it's just a fascinating moment to see the the ultimate end of reagan's. Turn tour fantasy play out and to see what the next phase is gonna, be I dont think we know That's interesting! When you talk about that aspect, organism in his bearing as as president before he was president goes its not talked about as much as is his policies and the way in which people think in care about you know folks who were downtrodden, etc and minorities So I ask you, then no have you plainness arc from manifesto to very goldwater to reagan to the trump republican party? is. There is a real through line that you can plot, or was there a jumping of the shark? Oh, no, I think is it absolutely a through line

Anybody who thinks that where we are right now is because a tromp has simply, mr that previous unit, three generations of history, the the through line, I think from goldwater from the manifested a gold water is very clear. I mean, I think, if you look at this, is really kind of in the weeds. But I think, if you look at the cells conscience of a conservative that gets publish a night, sixty overbury goldwater name, I think you can see he had the conservative manifesto in front of him. I mean the points our bang, bang, bang the same and I'm speculating about. I'm just looking at the way they bear presented. They look like they're the same, so I thank you see that pretty clearly- and I think you can see- obviously the link between that and gold water and then the link between goldwater and reagan. The emphasis on eventually I will follow. Ok, so to get from reagan from one reason asking the question, I mean everything but all the aspects of this, but as you

what region and as I remember reagan when I was young, as you said, he advocated for things, but in a language that was for the time at least, collusive. Yes, he said, make amerika great britain, fuck that morning in america, you know his his as regards he. He was trying to get a lot of people to vote for him outside of the normal groups and categories he got. Forty nine states, as far as I can tell trump makes no attempt to be inclusive and his rhetoric is much more angry than soothing. That's why? I wonder about the disconnect between in conservatism and trump conservatism, but so far we really only talked about ideology, and we haven't talked about how that translated to legislation so immediately after an out of the first set of rights in tax cuts in nineteen eighty one there's gonna be two sets nineteen, eighty one and eighty and eighty six, the tax cuts d,

deliver the weather supposed to people. Remember that they do, but that's because the reagan administration triple the national debt, write it through a tunnel money into deficit spending and that help to bring the country back. At the same time, we had interest rates coming down because a vulgar I'm had been appointed by carter, but so people remember that reagan is worth it actually didn't and what happened with the tax cuts, the cuts in regulations and the cuts to social services. Is it we began to see the hollowing out of the middle class and that, of course, is going to get worse and worse and worse as we move forward from reagan until the present? So what we see is some that really can clearly tracks with what theorists the rise of authoritarianism or totalitarianism, always point too, and that is the construction of an underclass. If you will a group of people, a large group of people, who feel that they have been left behind either economically or socially or culturally, and those people can in fact be picked

up in a later generation and by a strong man who promises not to address the actual conditions that created their misery, new laws that treat them better? You bring back manufacturing, for example, they have better health care rather than doing that. They promise that the reason that those people feel that they are no longer important is because those people and who those people are doesn't really matter it matter Did you use the idea of an enemy to weld your people into a movement and promise that you the only person who can bring them back to a period in which they are important again and you're gonna do you that by grabbing hold of laws, are either divine or are somehow universal and timeless that your end, those people are ignoring so tromp tapped into that. But the set up for that actually comes for.

This attempt at reagan embraced to get rid of those new deal. Regulation, social safety, net infrastructure and protection of civil rights, so She sat up with reagan, the construction of this disaffected population and then from being able later on to tap into that. So, in my view, very goldwater had an ideology raw rigour had an ideology? I don't believe the trump has an ideology. Fair, oh yeah no, I think, gets exactly right if he has no ideology right. in some way he doesn't belong on the dark. Does he work? I think he does exactly belong art, because he is a mirror to that population that supply side economics created. So he he mirrors them in two thousand teen any mere some really interesting way, because not only does he picked up the racism and sexism, which obviously became the driving force behind his presidency, but he

also calls for infrastructure. He calls for better health care. He calls for fair taxes. I mean people forget that aspect of him, but he really calls for things that really- lacked that disaffected population and where they hope they're going to be so he made put them in a way that I have always felt like he was a snapshot of that population and what that population. Been created. Now then, during his his presidency, he changes that he turns them into this movement that really mirrors what everybody seas is the root of an authoritarian movement, which is somebody who is interested in hurting others and in gaining the upper hand in a society. So he's a really transformative figure in a way for taking that republican thread from from really nineteen thirty seven forward, or at least from reagan forward

mirroring it and then turning it into a movement I'm. So it's a really interesting period. That's why what's why? In this book, he got his his four to six years, got their whole of section to themselves. No right! That's a very important part of the book you write in the book. Also. You say this book is about how a small group of people have tried to make us believe The fundamental principles aren't true, and you also say they had made war on american democracy by using language that serve their interests, then lead us toward authoritarianism by creating a disaffected population, etc, who's, the small group, and how small is it? And how, in a democracy, does a small group how much power the original small group really truly was small. It was those view established large business man who really didn't like the regulations of business that were inherent in the new deal and anyone

emphasised that that's not all businessmen, because if you look at things like the establishment of a securities and exchange that doesn't come from p, all who were starving in the streets. I didn't even know what is going on with that that came from entrepreneurs and beer, men who recognise that, if there were there, wasn't transparency and the rule of law, even in wall street, they were going to be able to make a gulf. Their businesses, I mean they call that out pretty early on. So this is a small group of people who don't like that, and they begin to make common cause with some Democrats, especially but with racists, who don't like the idea of reorganising racial. hierarchies in the united states, along the lines that the Republicans wanted to after the civil war, so that a new my group that the racists and their traditional religious figures as well, that the religious leaders who don't like the idea of women starting to take roles outside of the home in society as they do

especially during world war. Two that original group is actually is actually quite small, and you can see that reflected in the votes What's that go to eisenhower, whose a republican who buys into this idea the liberal consensus or the votes at went to after are and later on. In a you, look at president's right through Nixon and beyond, really right, through carter, you're. Seeing people vote for that idea, that liberal consensus, and vote andrew get pretty handily? I mean we don't remember Nixon that way, because Nixon's presidency changes pretty dramatically after nineteen seventy and after kent state in may nineteen seventy when he loses a lot of his supporters because of the way he handles the shooting, but there's a long period when the people who are trying to unwind the new deal and, unlike the liberal consensus, just really can't get much traction so a nest really that's very small now, what happens is once the republican party under reagan, big to embrace that idea of movement conservatism and the

story that they tell about it. It feels as if the new those who support that movement conservatism are a great deal, your than they really are because they begin to dominate popular media. Certainly, politicians begin to talk as if that's the division that people want people lacked republicans, although again they dare not reflect a electing republicans at the national level. Nearly so much, as is people tend to remember, but crucially, the point that I would like to make about. This is, if you look at what people actually want. Even now, Nixon begins to talk, for example, against abortion, in nineteen. Seventy two by the way before the roe, vs wade decision he action. That's what I mean when I was talking about the backlash is not should be thought of as a pre lash. If you will He begins to outline that before rovers is weighed, and seventy two, even over issues of abortion americans have tended to be about two thirds in favour of.

abortion, rights and, and they were in nineteen, seventy two. They were a nineteen seventy three and they still are, and that's it However, many of our hot button issues, what people think is a deeply polarized society is in fact a number petitions saying were polarized society when, in fact, we are really actually in agreement about a gun safety regulations, for example, business regulations, for example, taxing higher higher in at a much higher rate than we do now. Those things were actually in agreement on. One of the things I find really interesting in this moment is that if you look at the things that gretchen wit merged for example, in michigan with was people point out, a very thin democratic majority and they're saying that, as if it is somehow that she is using that small majority, a small majority to force through things. The way republicans have done in the past, in fact, which is implement

is extraordinarily popular, not only among Democrats but also among republicans. Similarly, when Biden took office in, and people paid attention to, the fact he was using. executive orders at a high rate in those early weeks, one of the thing, the blooming away was that he was using executive orders, but he was doing it to implement them. It were extraordinarily popular, unlike trump, for example, and other republican press who had used executive orders to push for the things that were unpopular so how that is gonna play out the use of small majorities to implement things that are very popular as opposed to unpopular. I just don't think we ve grappled with yet, but that idea that movement conservative ideology has grown. I actually think is not the case. I think it is still a small population that embraces that but it's been weapon ized by a certain group of politicians who recognise that they can't stay in power by appealing to people's interests and by being honest about what they're going to do so.

stead. They are deliberately using the language of polarisation to try and keep boaters behind them. We talk about is obviously the threat of autocracy and in connection with the earth, your new book, you were asked this question in the last few days, question in your new bucky provide historical context and how democracies can become autocracy. So are we closer to being autocracy till you ve ever been before, and you heather said the answer that I think is an unequivocal yes, people say we're. How can that be? If a demo What is in the white house, democrats hold the senate there's a very close, divided house of representatives is the threat that the trump comes back or even, if trump were to fade from the scene. Do you really think we have an autocratic a toxic problem. I do but just for the record here after that I said, but if it is it

We could talk about the, but you said yes, I have it here, but it's important to remember that certain times, the united states, we have had a thorough tearing governments. Now Is the american south from that? Eighteen? Seventy, four! Eighteen, seventy five through the nineteen sixty five and when people say oh, it can happen here. My answer is always it has, and then I went on to talk about how how there are also very hopeful signs right now. But that being said, what really concerns me is that really, since nineteen eighty six and would you know we can walk through the different pieces of that those who are drifted in getting rid of the new deal state have captured key nodes of our system, the supreme court, for example the you of the electoral college, which is gonna. You know we ve had at a number of president's lately, which is unusual, who have been elected without getting a popular vote, if instead been elected by the electoral college and that had happened twice in our past, what's happened twice in our recent past. So that's four times once

but randomly in the past, and when one of those times was because of fiddling around in the counting of the electoral college itself. But now that happening more and more, and it's obviously something that we're looking at when it's possible once again for someone like trump, but what he has done, is, he has set up, not only the not the republican party set up, the taking over a number of those knows, but trumps people then- and I think we don't pay enough attention to this- quite deliberately- took over the apparatus of republican, dominated states at state level, and you saw that, for example, recently with the acquittal of can paxton in texas, the age you ve of texas, even though a number of republicans voted to impeach him, the Senate refuse to convict. Only two people would convict him. I in part, because of the direction that the state government is going in texas and that taking off

the state governments matters because they are the people who are going to determine, for example, how state sir are redistributed and who gets to count electoral election results in the states and all the the the state apparatus. Status of our electoral system, and so what worries me is not at all that the american people want an authoritarian leader think they do. I don't even think most republicans do. What worries me is that those people who are embracing the ideology that was first articulated by the movement conservatives and then change to an authoritarian set of principles or christian nationalism. Set of principles in the last four to six years are now charge of them minutiae and the mechanics of our elections and have the power. Then, to force minority government on the majority, and if that happens, I think all bets are off. I want to

like another optimistic note, is there some possibility that in twenty thirty forty fifty years from now when our successors you're, having this conversation on casts or in a classroom with someone will say you know there was a moment back in your twenty twenty two. Twenty three when the republicans who seemed out of touch with the mainstream of their party at that time, like mitt, romney and Liz Cheney, who were basically drummed out of office? One was beaten in the election year. Other decided to retire as mitt romney has announced that he will that that will have planted some seed for some revival of a more sort of mainstream and traditional conservatism a few decades. Hence were not oh, yes, I think absolutely been one of the things that the republican party has always done is. It's always got. Through, these pendulum swings? It goes from advocating the idea of a government that supports people at the bottom of the the economic

ladder so that they can work hard and rise and they will in turn employ others and so on. They ve always and from that to the idea that what really creates jobs for those people? The bottom is by concentrating wealth at the top and they've done this. They did this in the eighteen, not enough between the eighteen sixties in the eighty nineties edited between the eighty nineties in the nineteen twenties. They you know they did it between the nineteen fifties and the nineteen eighties they've always done that is the first time. We have swung all the way into authoritarianism for that party, but I will maintain even now, I always have the idea ology that Abraham lincoln articulated in eighteen, fifty nine when he talked. throughout the world as a web in which you wanted a government to do things for people that they couldn't do for the cells to enable them to work hard and rise, and they would in turn employ other people shot keepers and shoemakers, and so on, with the extra capital that they manage to accumulate through their labor. They would support that second layer.

In that second later would, in turn employ employ a few people at the very top who would have factories, for example, that would support people the bottom again that sort Web of interactions is as important to the united states is concept of itself. As the Democrats, in which rose in an earlier period and was much more a vision of a society in which they would be haves and have nots and the government should broker between the two. So even and there were not, if even when the republican party as it currently is, constructed implodes, which is happening before our very eyes, even one that happens? Another party that articulates other vision, whether it's called republican or something entirely different will re emerge because that so much of our dna that we need to have that and the other thing

that nobody really talks about. Nearly as much as we need to is the fact we're in the middle of a dramatic demographic change and the younger people coming up here, live in a very different world than you, and I do. They live with the sword of climate change hanging over them. They grew up with drills there and standing of communism and of racial and and gender issues is just so extraordinarily different than ours. They going to rebirth some form of that ideology without reference to wear the republican party is now so the boy mine is the courage, admit, romulus, genuine everything to them and if they had been courageous,

will be remembered and will have consequence. Yes, the most important party, but perhaps is the last part which is called reclaiming america. How do we do that and what is it that we're trying to reclaim? You know, I'm glad, I'm glad we are going to have time to get to that, because when I was rereading this book in it's final draft, I got about halfway through that second set sean, and I thought crap I can't go on this- is just horrible. You know this is so depressing. I just I don't want to know how this scope out, so my my concern is that people won't make it to the third section because, as I said at the beginning of this podcast, what emerged when I wrote the book was the idea that what really drove of a population to embrace authoritarianism was the use of a certain kind of language that divides people and the use of a certain kind of him three that says there was a perfect passed and we can get back to that perfect past If only we follow the

divine rules or these eternal rules that are outside those of our constitutional system. So the third set She is designed to reclaim both that language and our history to emphasise that what is all we made amerika great, is, not some past that we can look to, but instead is the fact that we have always had a population often made of marginalized americans, who read ignores the vital importance of the principles articulated in the declaration of independence that we should be treated equally before the law, and that we have a to say in our government those principles, of course, where articulate by founders who couldn't begin to imagine what that was going to mean all these hundreds of years later. But that idea of human self determination and the driving for that of

ordinary americans, especially marginalized americans, is really, I think the centrepiece of means to be an american and the centrepiece of american history, so last section takes you through the He says of how people who believed that manage to expand american liberal democracy consistently to include more people with the push at the end that says, hey, there's, no reason we can't do this again. You teach history at a college which is different from teaching history in grade school or middle school or high school. There's a lot of talk about how history is being taught and how it's not being taught and what is being taught and what is the view of some people that shouldn't be taught. Even though history is history- and I I had an occasion recently to be at my

high school, where I graduated and I spent some time at a at an event with vesti driver had mentioned her before in the program doctor. Barbara Tomlinson taught me american history and american literature and I can imagine that I would have been- is as well formed and its critical a thinker if I didn't have the example of her teaching I'm do, have visibility into to help histories being taught in high school and below and when you think about it, well. I have as much visibility as a college professor who does pay attention to those issues, but obviously I am not in a classroom myself and- and I want to start actually, by saying our public school teachers are fabulous and it always others may when people are harsh on them, because students come to your class through carrying so much baggage that often, what you really trying to do is simply provide guard rails and enough information that should equipping them to go out in the world, so pudding tee

There is in the middle of you know you can't teach this. You have to teach this and all that just seems to be to me to be an extra ordinary burden for which they should be put. one hell of a lot more right. That's off my chest! So one sit that really worries me about the curriculum that is being pushed in places like florida, for example, but also places I texas people forget they had a new curriculum recently or Oklahoma. Some of the other places that are there are erasing, for example, black history. It's one thing to look at the pieces that are not being taught, but that's a question choices, because, obviously you can't always everything. What really concerns me much more about that curricula and if you look, for example, at the florida curriculum, is a social studies. Curriculum is not history has got many prongs to it, including economics, including the law, that's also in there and what concerns me about that is not only that it pushes a certain political viewpoint. What really

It's me as what it strips out his agency. So if you look at the florida curriculum for exam or what gets stripped out of that in the incarnation that got published is the the ability of people to push back against repressive governments or restrict or government, so that these black history and that curriculum there's even a tiny bit of indigenous history and that curriculum there's even a little bit of women's history, What you see is individuals who are making a marked by going along with the status quo, what it gets erased, is the efforts of people to change that status quo in order to expand rights, and that seems made to be really insidious and really scary. So, for example, can't say your teaching, the civil rights movement. By saying, oh, I'm teaching, Martin luther king Yes, he's an incredibly important figure in that movement. But what are you teaching

you teaching his you know, I have the vision of white people back children getting along together. That's a really different vision. Them he was really doing, which was participating in a much larger social movement. That included not only americans, but also really, obviously jewish americans and white americans in general as well as the the additions of of the chicano movement in the in california saw, but that large Vision of people coming together to push back a repressive government is being stripped out of that curriculum and ass. What concerns me rather than saying hey, wait a minute you ought to not have cut out studying red. I, for example, not gonna get studied nearly measures. He should what concerns me is teaching a history that again, and reinforces that idea of a magical passed in which our founders were heroic. The united states was sprung, fully formed from the head of you know,

george Washington, for example, and that all we have to do is get back to that magical passed to recreate a present. That is just fabulous. fact what american history really is about. Is that struggle to expand? Our principles to include all of us, instead of just a select few and that's what's being stripped out of the curriculum heather cartridges and thank you so much not just for being on the show here, but all you're you're fine work and in the learning you hear so many people and now and then podcast, thanks again and by the way I should mention the book again. Everyone should buy it and read it to both of those things are important lying in an reading it. democracy awakening notes on the state of america thanks again, thank you. Please. It's been a real pleasure. By conversation with had oxygen, continues for members of the cafe insider community

The bonus for insiders. We discuss headed interest in writing a pulpy historical novel by theodosius birth, but the fund of trashy novels issued put your characters in historical situations and then they behave on their own and it's just fastening missy, whenever they're going to do next to try out the member for just one dollar for a month at the cafe dot com, slash inside again that's capita com. Slash insider Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again, my guest, heather cox Richardson, if you like what we do- rate and review the show one apple todd or wherever you listen positive review helps new listeners, find the show send me. questions about news, politics and justice, tweet them to me crete. Barrage with the hashtag asked pre you can also, Reach me on threats

Call me a message at six: nine to four seven, seven, three, three, eight, that six, six nine to four. praetor bore you can send an email to letters. A cafe, dotcom stay tuned is pretty and by cafe and the vocs media podcast network. The executive producer is tomorrow, supper. The technical director is david, tat ashore. The senior producers are Adam waller and Matthew Billy and the cafe team is no oz, aligned david curl andor, not wiener. Jake kaplan nominal shop and Claudia Hernandez, our music is by andrew dost. I'm your host prepared statement. Support for this show comes from the national women's law centre without strong advocates for gender justice

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