This episode has brought you buy Clave you accompany that's reinventing email and tax marketing for E commerce, business owners, Clavijo puts creators makers and doers back and control of their marketing with an easy to use data driven platform. That does exactly what it says it can do delivery simple personalized, email and text messages to your customers at just the right moment. Helping you make more money with clay. yo. You build better relationships with your customers by engaging in exciting them, get started for free at K. L, a DE. I why oh dot com site box today support for today's episode comes from future hindsight. The award winning podcast from meal utmost join me let every day for deep dies into some of the most pressing issues facing our societies and discover how you can reinvigorate our social contract. You'll always come away with something helpful future hindsight currencies and focuses on efforts

the most diverse political candidates and young voter engagement and features the women working to make our democracy more representative and inclusive for all. Follow future hindsight wherever you listen to pack casts or to name on future hindsight that come from CAFE, welcome to stay too. I'm preparers, you do know the people that are dying there. The people picking your food driving your food to the warehouse for the people, packing your food and bring it to a grocery store. You dont, you mean another names, but believe me, there part of your life, that's Andy slab. It he's a senior advisor for the administrations, covered nineteen response team and has had a critical role these last. for months and rolling out the backseat. This isn't Andy. first time working in the White House

He served as the acting administrator of the centres for medical care and medical services were CMS during the final two years of the Obama administration, and before that he was part of the team that resuscitated the once failing website Healthcare got Gov last you worry just as the first cases of covered were appearing in the. U S: Andy launch the hashtag stay home campaign to encourage people to distance themselves, he came on stay tuned about a month later on March, twenty fifth to discuss. The impact covert would have almost one year and five hundred thousand tragic deaths later Here we are Andy joins me today to talk about the vaccine, roll out, binds leadership and how we got to this tragic point. That's coming up to stay to now. Let's get to your questions,

This question comes at an email from Emily High pre love the show. What are your reactions to the recent reporting? The New York Governor Cuomo may have misled the public on the number of pandemic. the nursing homes could he have done anything illegal. This new Yorker would like to know so Emily you're, referring to the firestorm that has arisen with respect us. Other things that went on in the early part of the pandemic with a middle part. The pandemic in New York state as it relates to nursing homes, and there a couple of things going on one is there was That has come under some scrutiny and controversy in which the governor basically directed that even if people had been in the hospital and had tested positive for corona virus, they must be readmitted to nursing homes, and then second, there had been findings that the number of deaths related to nursing home residence has been vastly under counted and understated, and so TAT S your question. First, what's my reaction to summons reporting Iraqis per negative, it will get to the question of whether or not illegal acts took place

as an initial hatter, as you'll hear me, discuss with Andy's lab in the interview leader should be telling the truth. Leader should not be trying to hide the ball leader should not be trying to make them Look prettier than they are, especially when life Death is involved because it always catches up. Later, and maybe maybe you don't try to write a book of a deadly pandemic. When we're not out of the woods yet and not celebrate and take a victory, laugh when people are still dying in your state, and you know you know that you probably misled the public and other government offices, perhaps about the extent of deaths in nursing homes, so yeah. My reaction is pretty negative. Now what are the consequences with respect to inquiries and investigations based on these things that

found out about Andrew Cuomo in his response to the corona virus. Well, we know that for some months the deal J Civil Division of Washington has been making inquiries. There have been some suggestions on the side of the Cuomo team that that has been politicized, maybe maybe not, but new states attorney General Latisha James who ran on the same ticket is Andrew Cuomo in the last election, made some pretty serious findings and they should escaping report about data that was provided with respect to nursing homes. Let me quote a couple of you away: G meaning the officer. The attorney general away G is currently candy investigations into more than twenty nursing homes across the state. But we found that larger number of nursing home residents died from covered. Nineteen, then Department of Health data reflected lack of compliance with infection control protocols put residence at increased risk of harm. End quote aid. You James is report, also says, quote preliminary data hey biology, suggests that

nursing home residents, died from covert nineteen in hospitals after being transferred from their nursing homes, which is not reflected in the Department of Health, published, total nursing, home death data, end quote, and then she puts a figure on the under counting quote. In fact, the OECD found a nursing home resident DES appear to be under counted by the Department of Health by approximately fifty percent now common as allies have suggested, while the overall counting of deaths in the state was not understated in any way it just at the proportion of people who died in nursing homes versus outsiders, Homes was skewed in that enquiries ongoing, but then there's been recent news that the use attorney's office in the eastern District of New York and the FBI, or also taking a look at I've asked around and try to understand whether not that would be a civil investigation, weathers related to what the deejay has been doing for some months or for some basis for there to be a criminal investigation.

And sometimes even in my own podcast, it's worth while to say you know, I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what criminal stash it would have been violated. Even if these allegations proved to be true. There are certainly requirements for localities and states to give accurate data to the federal government in connection with trying to receive funds and disbursements, mostly that's a civil violation. I suppose some argument that, depending on the shore, since it could be criminal, but at this point I dont see with a criminal violation would be, but that doesn't mean it's not serious. That doesn't mean it should be called out. That doesn't mean it should be credibility and, by the way there a government entity. That's thinking about. Looking at this known as Congress. A number of members of Congress, I believe, will be taking a look at this as well. This question comes at an email from Jeffrey who writes, I heard congressmen, any Thomson issuing Trump for his role and inciting the riot does that. Does it have any chance of being successful or is it mostly a political statement? Thanks?

as an old woman, I discuss the calf insider podcast to various lawsuit, and when you asked the question, does it have any chance of success depends on which defendant you're talking about so Carson very Thompson, along with the underbelly cp sued, a number of folks, including Donald Trump, Green Giuliani, to white supremacist groups, the proud boys and the old keepers. Under an eighteen, seventy one law, that's formerly known as the coup Klux Clan ACT. that law by the way was enacted to prevent white supremacist from engaging in intimidation of federal officials, whether they be federal judges or federal magistrates or federal law enforcement officers. As the case may if you look at the statue itself, it seems to be a pretty good fit for the contact that we saw. It's a title, forty, two: u DOT S code, section, one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, which says straightforwardly. quote if two or more persons in any state or territory conspired to prevent by force intimidation or threat any person holding any office trust replace of confidence under the

it states from discharging any duties thereof or to induce by like means any. officer of the United States to leave any place where his do There's an officer are required to be performed or to molest, interrupt, hinder or impede him in the discharge of his official duties. That's a violation, and you saw that you so members of Congress. with any Thompson who probably will be joined by other members of Congress in the lawsuit in the coming days and weeks, forced to abandon in their responsibility, in counting the votes of the electoral College and. having to abandon their positions within the capital are seated If you believe, even the concessions made by trumps attorneys at a second impeachment trial, who said what lots of this stuff was premeditated and Didn't the violence was known to be happening and by the way, the hearing in the Congress in the past week confirmed a lot of that. The people came to the capital intending to engage in this conduct to intimidate and prevent Congress from acting in its ordinary capacity

under its obligations. Those folks him to make an element of the violation here of the complex clan act, the issue when it comes to Donald Trump and regionally on is a bit more complicated, but from especially one. It's one thing to make the argument. The trump incited violence by saying things that he said. It's another thing to say that he conspired, in other words, had a meeting of minds had an agreement with other people. Unless you can show probably something more than just statements, he made. at the lips were the reaction he had later? And the second issue is He will be subject to some form of immunity if he can make the persuasive argument that the things he did or said in connection with these allegations were done in his official capacity is present at their part of his official duties, because its generally the case that federal officials, if they are acting in there, The official capacity and not going beyond their official duties have immunity there.

My question is based on the present status. At the time of what kind of discovery can be taken, we're gonna depositions can be taken without documents can be compelled to be produced because of other issues of executive. but as well. So in many ways I think it's a well play suit. I did a lot of arguments to be made that in fact, Donald Trump and regionally Annie. Where are the same mind with the keepers and the proud boys, but I think was old and more work to be done and will see were discovery takes us. before we get to the interview economic. One short comment on merit confirmation hearing to be the next attorney General United States, which took place on Monday. I say how refreshing in great and satisfying and gratifying it was to see a person of his experience. Integrity and humility talk about wanting to serve the country and talking about one of the east of the country, not as loyal to the president, but his lawyer for the people, and he he made a very simple stay-

among other, simple statements in his opening remarks, one of which was this quote the president nominates the attorney general to be the lawyer not for any individual, but for the people of the United States and quote and have often said? Sometimes, things are not that complicated doing justice doing fairness doing the right thing make sure no one is above. The law requires, is simple commitments: there's a lot of complexity in the law and he will have a tough job and have to navigate lots of different things in terms of facts, specific investigations and complicated legal questions. But some things are basic and simple and need to be stated basically and simply like that that he doesn't serve the president. But he serves the people. what another concept statute there's more coming up after this. Once upon a time there lived a princess, cold or cancel the long hair,

You know, anyway, she was stuck in a tower waiting for prints to come safer. But really it's time for that she ordered a ladder. With Prime one day, delivery restarted hairdressing empire. Obviously, thank you. The current approach, which is getting here by the right and the prince value, can be prime changed everything here's a scenario: you're gonna love, are your influence or marketing programmes, but the jewels you're using just aren't making the cod, maybe they're confused and hard to navigate. Maybe the Tec doesn't work, Wade's men to or maybe the data just isn't very accurate, meet Tiger an influence or marketing platform that's an accurate and actually easy to use, but before we dive into how Hunger works, real about influence or marketing. On average american spend at least two hours on social media every day, and no one likes to have their online experience disrupted by adds, which is why folding your brain

identity into organic feeds can be so powerful, but only when it's done right. Where's award winning all in one platform helps top global brands and agencies maximize their our ally throughout every phase of planning. Discovery asian and reporting, which means you, can reach their database of over six million influencers review content and Do they campaigns in one place, combined there and end solution with accurate data and global capabilities, and it's no wonder why Tiger is the number one influence or marketing platform out there had to tat. media dot, com, slash vocs to schedule a free demo? That's tiger media dot com, slash veto acts. My guess this week is earnest. Love he's a top advisor for the Biden administrations covered response team and is responsible for getting all of you a vaccine as soon as possible,

after overseeing the centres for medical care and medical services in the Obama administration. Andy is a proven expert and navigating healthcare bureaucracy. As we embark on here too, of the coal the pandemic Andy joins me to reflect on how the last year has passed out, and why has hope for the future? Andy Slab. It will come back to the show the station here so as well before we started taping. You were on the show almost exactly eleven months ago. I don't even know would it before you here to begin with you, given how much has changed in coming years, aged since March, twenty fifth of twenty twenty, I'm wondering what we both? How would it be different eleven months from then if it could cast it forward? I think you were pretty accurate. In projecting how bad it was gonna be, and that was We are in the throes of the lock down at just been a couple weeks old in many places in the country. There were not a lot of debts, yet people are starting to see

What was happening in other countries, including ITALY and through the darkness, was beginning to settle upon us for me, nothing a doctor in not having so much foresight got far worse than I ever expected. I wanna go back in a minute and talk about how you think thing went last year under the prior administration, how you think local officials, governors and others reacted? What mistakes were made will, you would have done differently, but you are not in a position of of actual. authority there? Now you you are as a senior advisor The cover nineteen response team, once in the present day first hand? How do you say your days. How does have its president binds covered nineteen team coordinate on a daily basis to deal with what the situation is now well, it's it is interesting to couple things first of all, is anybody

He's been in the federal government knows and, as you well know, the federal government has some of the best experts on any topic. You pick, whether it science, whether its foreign affairs, whether it's the law, there's incredibly deep people. What what there's? Not you make an effort of it is a horizontal organization, the drive to single mission, illicit work at it every day, and you know what I think: did the Trump team guy wrong to their detriment in two hours? They didn't trust the courage officer, staff didn't believe that anyone, But then I knew how to the right work and what I think we have a group of us which your rankling Jeff science Tony how'd. She resemble those gear and the sea. People who know each other. People have a lot of respect for not just the science but scientists and in the people involved

and communicate allotted are very active they'll get up I to do in their really pretty focusing what It'll number one primarily seems out bigger, faster, better phone before and do we possible, and you know it's very focusing to know that the factory the more people will be alive and so that makes it really easy when you ve got a decision to make like should I have set a company or should I use, do something that might be in another climate requires some real thought and it allows you to just do it and push as hard as possible. How involved, as the present President Biden himself in all this he's very involved in a minute.

full of ways in some ways that I think are expected in a couple wave reject the jar are surprising to the positive. You know he wants to know the facts and we want the public to know the facts. You know, I think, a lot of presidents. The thing that you you would get you in trouble with the president is, if you Are you now here's if a question? Your question you said here is awaited. You look really good. Mr President, the way to spend the answer which still people and politics are causing doing no really successor to show like the cinema in a favourable light here. Just look at USA. I won the day some strange answers. We don't know what you don't know. If it's, yes, I would guess was no. I wonder- and I want to be able to explain to the public- are to be able to agree with what he said: a junior high school any you're nice going to understand what I'm talking about. You don't feel the need to address it up. You know, I think, his from probably a little more protective

just wants to go to that. Like most basic question, when can I get back summated? Can you tell me the answer and if you can't, when kids so he's engaged in that regard, camel hair is also people engage the vice president in both of them, I think are reminders frequently that we have a lot of people in the country that in equitable access and that we can just solve the problem for the country we have to solve it for the people that are having the greatest challenges and I'll tell you why it's- and this is true last president's through this President He'D- take your tone from your boss right. If the boss is telling you this is what matters to me it trickles into everything you do and in line with european values, and it's really good feeling like I think we had a prior president who was very curious and didn't want any blame, and I think that colored,

even the good people that were working on things and color their ability to respond effectively to react to a couple things you said and wanting it is pleasing to the ear. Obviously, is that you said Joe Biden doesn't want addressed things up is one to make things look better than they are to me. That's not just an issue of ethics and integrity, but in reality it also is. It also ends up being good politics, as we have seen with, back to the governor of my own state, Andrew Cuomo, who it looks like pretty clearly try to do exactly that in the moment no wrote a book that sounds like mission accomplished, Longbill for the mission was accomplished. It still an accomplished. So in the run. If you have a time horizon of more than eight nanoseconds dressing up numbers falsely in predefined, things is even good politics or policy right yeah. I mean you have to operate in today, and it is our view that the public will eventually now, and so, if

Just say we do a great job and we get this thing taken care of people will at that point I people will start to feel good again. we don't, then people will still feel talent, and so it's very tight and we're getting a lot of pushed from the press to give people a date certain to say an Ex Lindsey date, life will begin to return to normal. Is it can a positive result in its very tough thing in a different context, that is life and death. Now I guess the time when do you think they'll be charges against Donald Trump? When do you think this investigation will come to a close? There is obviously a clearly different cycle of events, but How do you and tony fancy and the others balance the need between not over promising, also not under promising, and also in being accountable to the public in giving people. Some guidance, it seems to me that sometimes public officials are or to restrain

and I'll give you a particular example in a minute. How do you think about the proper way to answer the question We are no longer a private citizen, but but talking on behalf of the administration and the first thing is it everybody in the team s? I agree and continued revisit it, because if you have Tony saying one thing- and I am saying another thing and present say another thing- that that's no good, so you have to really have a discussion and run cleaners kind of as it is the chief observers as really to lead this discussion, and I think this couple things that he things are important, but that I think are important to one is. We just can predict the future, so we could do a lot of things well and surprises will happen, and we ve learned throughout this pandemic that that have plenty of surprises, There are things we can get role and we should be accountable for in those are the things we can influence, but we should be very careful about protecting the future number two, and this is something that I deeply believe is party

reason why we have such a fatigue. Public is because nobody asked the public to prepare for a bit of a marathon, the president kept saying or read the Ex president over the last year. It's almost over it's just around the corner, a miracles coming. This is just about to finish and a good bit of the public who either believe that or just didn't hear any different message, even if they didn't believe it. Fatiguing when it was never over when it kept getting worse and worse and worse. So I believe the smart thing to do is to tell the public the following. We are confident we will overcome this impetus and we will. I am confident, but there are more curveball coming science and whatnot prose prepare for them. It will be a matter of months and if we can beat those tat was because we will work every day to do that.

you're not to give the public the if everything goes right. This is what happens, but this is the correct one for example, the Johnson Johnson vaccine is recording. This is not approved, I would say, not yet approved. So all of the dates that we have given the public about when things will happen, dont account for a third vaccine being approved That's not built into a sort of a model of predicting that that will stump at some point be available. It is built into internal models, but a separate built in what we call the public in part you don't. We ve lived through a year of them of the White House, a passing around the FDA in a way that it causes the loose trust, be in question whether they want to take a vaccine. Remember vaccines are was important. Vaccinations are right so clearly, they do their job and if they do and will baby surprise will have some good news and more port the impact of that Good NEWS, Billina waving that it takes a certain amount of discipline and probably accurate

and which were getting that well, you guys are being too negative trumpets you positive, you guys are being too negative. Deserts cover some of the flavor with that. Recently, you sure Saunders internal models with are passing audience. Yes, right. I do oh if people promise not to tell not determine their irrevocably actually that there was there was a joke, but this is something that I actually have not focused on and not appreciated, so to the east public officials, like you and others say when a timeline of x number of vaccinations, bye, bye. Why date? If suddenly, good news, even if that Good NEWS, you know, has been report, we do not know the time certain I'm going to meet break clear about what you're saying like the Johnson Johnson vaccine

Or some other development, I don't know what some of those developments might be. You will come out and change the public model and that change could be significant for the better. But that's what's happened already when we first got here it's hard as this by who to believe the country had me had purchased about vaccines for every adult in the country. So one of the first things directed us to do is go purchase and affecting for every adult in America, and we did that and we, as for a schedule which was which was consistent with all that that, given the old team without a lot of the work we have done- and I said we will have an effect scenes for the rest of the country by the end of the summer, and people did like that, with the truth now, in the intervening three weeks, We did a lot of work with the vaccine manufacturers a lot of work all up and down the distribution chain to use different production act that we did a number of other things and

last week, the president came out and said we will now have enough back scenes for everybody in the country by the end of July, and it s about the Johnson adopted makes it so moving a date up. People generally tend not to be. With you and the old Sea, under its Yonder promise over deliver by giving people. The trust again feels here's what you think. I believe the getting people to trust again, that you're getting illustrate story that you're getting freedom, nation that they're getting facts good or bad. No, not tipping the scales either, possibly or only by being very clear. As I said, it would sound of July that doesnt, if after Johnson and Johnson so very clear and then the things tat. We all say it and shootings get worse eliminated. The price were also gonna have to do the same thing. I think that public trust peace is so essential to us being able to do this right and get through an escort

possible yeah, they getting. I think it's of central importance of Riference its importance of people have faith that their government is helping and then, when you want the public to do particular thing, that's most most important right, you want them to wear masks. You want to know where to mass. You want donor to where mass after they ve been vaccinated. You want them to take vaccine you want them to come back for the second, so trust information in government is giving. I can't think of anything more important if were actually gonna get to the end of the road here. You said something a few minutes ago that struck me any said something very basic and I've talked about all the time and the people talk about in leadership discussions, and that is the tone at the top matters and there's a particular tone at the top. When the top was bye, bye, Donald Trump and as you were saying that I was going to ask you what Does that mean for somebody like doktor found she under the pride minute? vision, and then you anticipated that I guess and said even I'm pretty.

you're, referring to among other people, Anthony vouches it it even affected how good people did their job what? What? What do you mean by that in the particular case of of doktor foundry doktor projects should be able to say what he means. It has fewer words as possible. and when he has to figure out how to say it in a way the dozen upset the president. His message give up give up his candidate one could see him making the effort to This almost impossible divide of saying what he believed the science was telling us And doing it in a way which allow for the fact that trumps statement ever. It might have been at the time, wasn't some ridiculous falsehood and so You know you, as you listened to him who, by definition, you know, he's an easy team clarity. They politically believes in the sky, he served seven president's now. Generally speaking, people

then do his job, because there too scared that if they don't listen to him, bad things will happen. Well, the first time I either but no business at the he said, but I am saying it were forbidden? To really didn't have that fear? The lots of people might die if they got it wrong and so kind of within this very interesting position of having to do about that? I wasn't really deferring to him. Did there so many civil servants in the government that you wouldn't no, we never had ever mean suddenly Nancy messier. We know we know of but it'll sheep. She was somebody who basically said the emperor's new clothes. What no one else would you just came out and said in February this is going to happen we're going to be in a situation where things like schools are Democrats Was a business is going to close its not a matter of when or set up out of the wind and she got lambaste and when you get lambasted by drop. As you know, it's just a one off event. Its package- people

No, it's my very, very sincere. I've changed my life changing and we very scary, and so it's the message to a lot of People who I think that the time will look I'd love to do my job, but we can do this or will we really in jeopardy? I want this concept of and the exaltation of science in the following a science and I'm in the camp of people who believe in science, and I better that mantra time, but I am sure we understand the limitations of that. If there are limitations and anti bar from Tocqueville, you know science properly understood is something that we should be focusing on and it sometimes sounds like when people talk about science and follow the sign, one of the science. There is not enough. I think public education than the point that the scientists perfect particular when you have an evolving situation and in it worries me because on one day a duck we'll say, will sign, says, acts and people not fully appreciate that. That's kind of a conditional statement being made some

to change based on more science or maybe the intersection of science and policy does any them send it. Do you think that we ve caused some pride homes and how we want people to accept quoting court science by not talking about it right, Well, it's very weird is that we are in the metaphorical lab with the site while they're doing the experiment so were used to science, they gave it if we believe in science is being all knowing and grounded in India in fact it was after the experiment over you're saying. And there had been multiple repetitions of that experiment. And the same results are found. They say now scientist spoken, but that's not was happening here. An editor. Another word Splaining rape, the word that were sometimes when the lab and we're trying to figure out. If you put these two chemicals together, will it fills us, and so we see three bubbles flow to the top and we say

using up we'll, however, with is up for it? We don't know that and so that the question of what kind of antibody body reacted, your body will get to getting the virus and what how the different that'll be if the virus mutates and how different that'll be. If you don't get it from a virus itself from a vaccine. Those are all great questions that we all feel should be noble. The the problem is there not completely nobody, they will be, we'll be able to back on it in any will quite obvious to people in the future. But right now yeah we're in the lab, and so these things are just unknown, and so my advice to people is: if the expert, you listen doesn't say, we don't know quite frequently and they're, not the expert, you probably oughta be listened now there are some things we do know and I think what's important about the science Is there some things that are you? You basically do under any circumstances

wearing a man has been getting a vaccine followed. category of whatever else turns out. Three to those are really smart things to do, and we know that because the vaccines are very, very effective and incredibly safe. Their aid in some ways there a gift that we don't deserve and, as I said in a personal capacity None other than that, of course, in a publisher responsibly, but they really just are completely delivery and likewise, masks can do while as less perfect job you, can do quite a good job and so at some level we know enough science right. make some decisions to make the decision not to go to a raging party? Were people screaming and spitting in singing cameras like you, and I know enough not that you are invited to those parties anymore, but

Were we to speak for yourself? What we're gonna see pictures that we're. We know enough to know. Science tells us enough to know that's about idea, with the science doesn't tell us, is exactly when they become a good idea again and learn that soon this morning about this idea of public faith which relies upon you know a very short of tricky calibration of predict. that are made right, and I agree if you're going to err on the side of not predicting perfectly you want to under promise and over before him, and then people will forgive you for that, but there is still a risk. If you, if you want, predict and in good news follows in a frequently it can still cause but to say will the garments is lying to us and they build in a discount and and so for example, I'm thinking of you all. These statements were made by experts and I just wonder if you have a view as to whether or not in others

criticism here, lots and lots of experts said repeatedly in there's some people so the. but there is no way of vaccine that would be appropriate and responsibly administered, could happen before the end of the calendar year in twenty. Twenty is really thought jet in retrospect, as the best way to have talked about the future viability of a vaccine, or is it just the name in the nature of look for Sir and Madeira and the others they just in a way that was not foreseeable well, so, first of all, of course, there is a cost to being too conservative and the best argument against it is mental health and the great anxiety that many people are feeling and

addiction crisis that we have before the pandemic is even greater during the pandemic and the sense of hopelessness and despair that many people feel so I wouldn't describe ourselves is leaning on the scale to be pessimistic by any means. I dont think that the right approach I do think the cost of missing is while it there's a cost and either end cost of over promising feels quiet high so rather than over, promised governor promising. I just try to be descriptive. You don't leave these Monday, Wednesday Friday briefings with Dr Fauci and Dr Wilensky, and I just try to be descriptive and I try to answer every question in plain English clearly and earnestly and say I don't know when we don't know, but also to be hopeful about women which means that we will be this in its image as a matter of of of well we'll, do it that

only doesn't work for everybody, but I think it I think it's the best approached it. I know in the case of the vaccine. It's really interesting. I do think it performed look. They were never people who were saying it could happen quickly and they were right from the outset. I think people, envision, while the eighteen months that was Kennedy standard go and it turned out that pretty close right, twelve to eighteen months for the vaccine probably a little bit better, and you know that was due to some extraordinary work purchased. And what do you know not just inside the few if any Peter marks whose real hero this but actually worked, had started a decade or more before on this emanate life and investments that the government made in twenty seventeen in this summer and a platform for a vaccine for science and mergers

it's. A really interesting proof point about how basic research, even if you're, not quite sure why you're doing it turns out to be a really thing to do, because by the time we got two January last year, tony faulty and rewrite looked round is that a we ve got something on the shelf. That's kind are ready to go in it seems you called a lucky collar blaming you combat investment, but it certainly an argument for science and we get in that sense. We got both lucky and am looking to just have such good people who were thinking we'll be right. Back to my interview with Andy Slavic after this.

Work, has never been just a place of work. It's a social environment, from building connections with clients to creating a workplace that makes room for everyone's needs. It's important that you feel hurt at your job and with all the changes the past year and a half has brought. Everyone has important questions on their mind like how do you bring your most authentic self to work? Does the workplace that you left feel more inclusive than the one you returning to and how can everyone in the workplace have their voice heard enter reshuffle linked in new many series that explores the future of work and what it will mean for you examining six inspiring stories through sick cities over six episodes, you'll hear new perspectives on how the world of work is changing and what still to come.

Tamarind Hall will dive into the weeds of how the pandemic has changed. The way we work and, more importantly, how workers and workplaces navigate those changes. Watch this week's episode on linkedin dot com, slash future work, enjoying the conversation with the hashtag feature of work linked in wherein it together and you were now in spite of the Twilight Zone where the process of vaccination, happening. You know tens of millions and under the exact number at the moment you may I go into the back to them,

what what's so we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon February, twenty third: what's the number about sixty million people, sixty million vaccine shots and about forty four million people so right now, half of people over sixty five of the first vaccination most people in long term care facilities have been completely vaccinated and about you don't one in eight people, including the one in eight people, have been, have had their first vaccines So we're we're making progress, but but we are not room a lot of ways to go. Yes was the he's gonna want ass, he was in the universe in which some portion of the pact Nation has been vaccinated, others haven't Questions arise is what you can do not do in going backwards, before about notes of caution. and are offered by professionals at some point. People begin to question.

whether their not being overly cautious and I'll. Give you a concrete example, and I saw Doktor Fouche Yon TV over the last weekend asked this question and it struck home with me, because I have the exact same scenario that I represent present. You would so my parents you know, elderly living in New Jersey have had both of their vaccination shots, the requisite period of time thereafter, and so we did something for the first time you're going back a year and we went saw them saw them inside, because I thought it was important from mere the grandkids to see their grandparents and we are in close quarters. We did not socially distance and they had their grandparents and were generally quite careful and their vaccinated was an irresponsible. So I think the way to look at that

There was a substantially lower risk of doing that. Then there was before they were vaccinated and- and there was a high reward for doing that and so I would say you constantly just while we have imperfect should an unwanted data you just cousin playing with that. What's the risk what's the reward, so if it was you, I were too time to elderly people that I ve never met before radioactive reward for their high, so that worth it even if they ve been vaccinated, because sooner than that that the chances are great into introducing those sort of personal calculations which our which are somewhat personal of decisions and somewhat circumstantial this is something we have to start to get used to. What I'm glad to hear. You say that, because it is really tough on folks to see the light into the tunnel and to be

hold it in a way that I haven't had other people say when you talk about the high reward, presenting its personal to you like seeing offence for some people going to church effect can be done in a particular way if enough the congregation is vaccinated and that that I feel like a lot of people about don't think that some of the leaders appreciate the loss of those things that people wanna get back and instead they could keep hearing same things over and over again I mean you and I haven't the professional say if you have a group of people all over the age of seventy five who have had both vaccination shots can get together and have a party, expectation. Is they'll say yes and and is part of this just for people who are speaking publicly and with authority you just don't like, too many blessings to folks, because people will abuse it. I think it's. I think it's that once the CDC says it and they'll be the body to say and in their working on this by the way. So, but once they said it's there,

then you know a very credible different than Johns Hopkins, as happens in or someone with an informed opinion when they say it becomes as close to a blessing in the eyes of the because there is so they're- probably means that their ten to twenty percent, more careful and thought four and therefore probably not first and not meet. The public will need is soon. Is the public wants it, but about a little automatic appropriately, a little bit the slower side to make sure that they thought throughout. The permutations, like that. Zack. I know that's exactly what's going on, because those subjects about internet question is a really live topic from the White House same point. We place to follow the science so if the CDC doesn't say anything we're going to push them to get an answer whenever push it mister. What that answer is

then I'd say is this: is gonna sound a little bit flip, but why do you take ever marker vaccine? Why do you take a polio vaccine? He taken zero die and you know it firstly at first level, I think people even before we know exactly the permutations of what this do in your life, which is by definition, interdependent, and whenever the Us Eu community doing both your family Edgerton because go into a restaurant, almost other things. There are in fact getting the larger and larger numbers of people, but even before me, with that suffers completely. figured out or advice is rendered them the huge benefit the people feel and understand. I would like to think suppose. Ten years from from an acid in this way is not just about the Trump Administration ten

from our based on what you learned over the last ten or eleven twelve months, there is another outbreak of a particular kind of virus that has the same the properties, but it's a new virus, and you know then president calls you happens? Is how should we proceed? Others? You would say differently today than you would have said a year ago about other countries should prepare for such a thing or two about such a thing would look. I think this, I think, they're sort of two levels to this. There's the what I consider to be that the traditional first line of defence, the things that are the objective standard hygiene that it sort of the equivalent in a homeland security context of taking off her shoes and checking liquids in going through the metal detectors. We will get better at a set of things like that, like surveillance, like making sure, were stacked up on

all of the people we need and then when something comes to be able to contain it as quickly as is the matter being a thoroughly as possible. So we'll get better at those things, but that's only Half of it. The other half in the probably the more interesting have to me in some respects is we do more than take the literal lessons. But do we take the other lessons to heart that people with experience do and if you go look at this as our starter bug and you realize how difficult that was once the official once the official response failed, we had another chance to succeed and that chance was with an unofficial response. It was with good collective action. It was with math wearing. It was with some Instead, our actions affected others. It was with some unity and some discipline etc, and

we really just didn't do very well on those scored. Some of it is our inexperience. Some of it is. This became a kind of cultural identity, peace, but what's really curious, is it's not guaranteed that the next time, ten years from now, they will win? get it right with our formal defences? And then the question is what will we have learned our lessons from an informal standpoint? There will no hate, like Hong Kong: did slap on a mask away do some of the things that you due to minimize the damage that you can do culturally and five more face ever more faith in our hard sciences than they do in our society, as well, the same way, and I had a thought recently. You appreciate that you know you don't want to say doomsday type things for many reasons may, because you don't believe them and also because you speak for the administration now, but you I would think to myself recently tell me this is crazy.

thank God for the vaccines, not just for all the ordinary reasons that the vaccine, the vaccines and, of course the vaccinations will help us no killed a virus and get back to normal. But boy had the vaccine not come along in multiple forms. we were still let's say hypothetically a year away. I mean we have been anything other than doomed, given how our response when and how different those responses were indifferent localities and in states around the country. I really believe things better, this so the so it's for a long time for developing these biological, the bonds and have been for years that they plan to either a leash or threatened to unleash against the United States, and

if you mentioned the most deadly virus, you get the government, think of Ebola and the most contagious virus should get they can think of measles, which is about seventeen times more contagious that govern nineteen any battle as a seventy five percent deathray, they were creating super bugs that they were combining some of these properties. Demille focuses the mind to think about a virus that seventeen times is contagious as this one, and also quite Dublin, one of the things it is interesting about this virus. I've heard it described by people by your The Atlantic discredit dislike, it is almost like the reverse. Goldilocks virus is bad enough that it's killing masses of people. But not so bad that for many people they don't think give worth disrupting their lives to make a change. In other words, if you have something like the flu or something mild, people

We can live with it, but ever something like this super bad people would people would respond. But were seriously because they had to, but there were enough people in this country, privileged people, people who died, people want living three generations too Parliament, people working for labour camps are in prisons, are homeless, shelters, etc. Did have really done just fine, they been inconvenience. By day they sure sounds, I sang yeah. We would have been doomed. I think this vote. I think this trickle would have produced. It was getting more and more acceptable to some people, but not that of the majority of people, but people work where we were living with it. Look all of us to some extent have grown onto this right. We just past five hundred thousand deaths and if you'd have told us that, when I was on your podcast last time, if we were to have, we will be talking about five hundred thousand deaths at the present time when there were not yet a thousand ass, an unthinkable

but unthinkable, and now we just it just pass us by who is in part the reason couple things in an amendment which we talked about. This last time, maybe was too soon we're not seeing it on video and other kinds of things like terrorist attacks and other calamities in earthquakes, floods that caused everyone to react in a particular way. You not seeing that hear. People are dying alone, in hospital rooms, its largest, I there's little, there's no you're, not suddenly fifty about our wines, there's no floodwater Everything about this virus is exactly the same exactly the same, except that the distribution of cases and deaths is proportional to the population regardless of age, so that

children, would dive covered to the same degree as they are a portion of the population when all this be completely different, yes and it such as age, it also race. Yes, of course right I mean this. Is this? Is a vacuum for disease. This is a living conditions, disease, and so, if your occupation is one where you are in constant presence of other people because you're bringing up a cash register or you're working enemy, passing that is very different. I've been so a lot of times. People look at these numbers on tv and they say three thousand people a day a day. That seems impossible, because I dont know any of these people, and

someone said that to me once- and I still remember my response, because it was from the guy licence used it more times and that until now it doesn't feel like that. It feels like it came response, but my response was, you do know the people that are dying there. The people picking your food did the people driving your food. To the warehouse for the people, packing your food and bring it your birth, restore you dont, humane and other names, but believe me, there part of your life yeah yeah, I think that's true. Do you have a different view, either more passive or more negative about federalism? A lot of the questions and controversies that have arisen as whose whose job is it should the federal, parliament decide everything. Should they give strong guidance? Should they put incentives, a play to get states to do the things that most Comport was signed? the policy should they be hands off. I mean the most recent information of this. Is the italian

People who live in different states and I live in a trice area and is very different experience. China book of vaccination in New York versus Connecticut versus New Jersey is federalism, good or bad for dealing with viruses. I think regional, instead of federalism? What do I mean by that? I mean you obviously have local differences you may live in a part of is a state or a part of a state that has a lot of meat, packing plans or a lot of nursing homes in your response or a lot of young kids in school, and you respond should refund. He local conditions. So there should absolutely be a regional approach that is partnered with the federal approach, because the truth is, we have a few. We have eight territories and fifty states in territory. There are fifty as ways of doing everything maybe the three best ways, maybe there's a best way in rural communities. Maybe there's a best way in urban.

It is the best way in your factory towns. There there there are different versions, but there are fifty s ways, and so this is this. Is it like of the kind of government. We think we have not a relic of what we think is the best approach. Is it fair to say that the successful create of multiple, really highly effective vaccines is an unmitigated triumph? Yes, it lots of people deserve credit, and I think we ought to be generous with credit and not stingy with credit and that for four things that have gone well. Well, well, are you? I would start by saying you Peter marks at the end,

yay or something you can read about in articles of people who listen and having someone that I'd encourage you to to read about, but he and Rick Bright, Tony Fauci. Those career folks did a terrific job, and but they were people in the Trump administration is he went and got the money for Congress to find that work and worked successfully with some of the fund the companies, including madeira and support network and- you don't? They all deserve? They observe credit route. We should all be grateful and there's no offense, but about the person concerned. You I've been thinking a lot about based on career and based on public perception about the big farm about the pharmaceutical companies. and when I was use attorney, we investigated them for various things in their head. There has been a lot of reason too. criticise in a particular pharmaceutical companies and the industry as

and some people think they gotta get away with things, but it always the case that Big Pharma also has big solutions to things that the country cares about vaccinations and certain treatments, and maybe it's a complicated thing, have the average American to think about big pharma. Using reaction to that ghetto. I think it's, I think it's fair to hold two competing thoughts in your head at the same time, which is that we should fund innovation and we should put, we could work with public and private partners to fund innovation and, if there's going to be affordable, the people because the things that I think are appropriate criticise pharmaceutical industry for our raising prices and insulin, something been around for a hundred years, not changed and growing it much more rapidly than inflation in order to meet the profits. Let's find the new innovations, the things that are on the market that this be going down.

in price every year, not up in price every year, and even in the middle of all of us have had some very where I I've worked. Very closely with the pharmaceutical companies see used on this work in it's it's a kind of working like doing, because everybody but the constructive, but we also have very frank conversations about how this is untenable. People can't afford it. This is we have a situation where the government aid for everybody's vaccine, we're, not hearing about pricing, because government wrote the check if the government was writing the check in everybody to pay for this vaccine- oh my goodness, we will be having this debate during this terrible terrible period, its new Tommy offline. Having is very important that is so important to laugh and have pleasure and humour in life. Do you still have time for that? I do I do and the easiest way for me the levers to laugh at myself or make a fool of myself and attend situation becoming a left to do that here. Well,

make a fool of me after I got to promote its probably ok with me, you haven't, got a cutting through the attention. I mean the mistakes that I've almost made or call myself for making an faced up to how stupid they would have been in the face very tense work with a lot at stake. Helping people see that I'm human to me said the same under them if we are to be human and tell me your mistakes and laugh about him and go oh boy, you that this is a front. This is kind of a strange situation is really important in some part, because life still ticking by hate him in recent years will read it the four years that have real getting to them, and you know I. I love the fact that visited your your parents and had a patent really meaningful expected. It probably met more. You then, if they didn't, even your kids have been visiting your parents every weekend for the last year,

no, it was. It was a real special thing and a real joy, and we need more of that- and I hope everybody decides what that joy is and just Joyce to Hell. Out of it I mean just really relish in and if you're lucky you do that with your parents. Your folks will make ten dishes seeming hot, wonderful, indian food too. I would love that, if I may, the building, a joyful but shut out. My mom's, my mom's cooking, which was perhaps at the angle myself after the things up, an because absolutely me, love civilians and absolutely damaged imaging all that they all kids favorites and at once, which are much. Are we going to do that? But it was his best thing I'm anyone. I know you have a million things going on. Thank you for your wisdom. Thank you for your service and these latter thanks again, they cooper

My conversation with Andy Slavic continues for members of the Cathy insider community to try out the membership free for two weeks, had a cafe dot com. Slash insider again, that's cafe. Dot com, slash insider So we talk a lot about over today and I want the show this week talking about another consequence that is apparently related to covered nineteen. And that's the growing number of violent attacks against the asian american community. Asian american elders in particular its mind. Boggling disgusting and heartbreaking. I'll. Give you a few examples. Earlier this month the Bay area, reported assert in these incidents in one attack captured. serving video circling the internet and eighty four year old Man Viscera Time Party

shove to the ground, while walking in San Francisco. He never regained consciousness after the attack and he died just days later. These attacks, become jeeringly common, a ninety one year old man was shoved to the ground in Oakland Chinatown the whole attack caught on camera a vietnamese woman was assaulted and robbed of a thousand dollars in San Jose, and Filipino man was attacked with a box cutter across the face on the subway in New York City, I saw him tell his story on cable television. This past weekend, you would have been moved to tears as I was, and there are so many more attacks like these are not res. in fact, as far back as last March, ABC is obtained, a warning from the FBI opening

recent asian american hate crimes because of the pandemic. The report said quote: the FBI makes this assessment, based on the assumption that a portion of the? U S public, will associate covered. Nineteen with China in asian american populations. End quote when a sitting president calls covered the China Virus or the China plague we're Kung flew its trump infamously. Did it becomes clear that he's out looking out for Asian Americans like every other American or is concerned about ensuring the safety of all people who live in this country? His rhetoric distinctly puts that community at risk, his language, empowered people to act violently on their racist beliefs. We ve seen a sharp uptake an anti asian incidents since the beginning of last year. According to the stop a p, I hate website a tool used for tracking hate incidents against Asian American Pacific Island communities

two thousand eight hundred and eight self reported incidents of anti asian discrimination have been documented across the. U S from its inception in March Nineteenth two December: thirty first of last year, spike in hate crimes was so severe in New York City, that the inward p d establish the asian hate crimes taskforce to combat such violence. Cynthia Choi one of the creators of stop API hate said this about the connection between hate crimes and frumps. Inflammatory rhetoric quote their parroting trumps language animus, that's tied to China being the source and spread of the virus and the provision of use of orientalists stereotypes and racist demagoguery, and quote to be clear, this kind of hatred and violence didn't start with trumps rhetoric, and I will end with him God, but it does show how crucial language is, especially when it comes from our highest leaders from Language, diverted blame away from his administrations failed response to the pandemic and in a way,

on the asian american community going to the grocery store. We're going for a walk should not be life threatening for anybody. So we need to pay attention to attack, in all of our communities, including the asian american Community, and we need to when the common enemy of all of us, the corona virus itself, my deepest condolences to the families of all these victims, and we never forget them and work to create a better, safer future for everyone will that's it for this episode of state to thanks again to my guest, Andy's lab if you like what we do rate and review the show, an apple podcast spore wherever you listen, every positive review helps new listeners, find the show

send me your questions about use politics and justice, tweet them to me prepare our with the hashtag. Ask pre call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's six thousand six hundred and ninety two 4pre, or you can send an email to stay tuned. A cafe, dotcom stay tuned is presented by CAFE studios your host is preparing the executive producer is tomorrow, suffer the senior producer is Adam Waller. The technical director is David Tattersall, and the cafe team is Matthew. Billy David curl Andor, SAM overstatement, Noah S alive, not wiener, Jake, Kaplan, Jeff Island meant Chris Boil, and Sean Walsh and Margo Maylie. Our music is by Andrew Dost, I'm pre baronne stay tuned.