From cafe and the vocs media podcast network welcome to stay to humphrey barrage. Are we part of the issue? Which means? Are we part of the solution to so? I think that I think a bluff, as you know, in america, some lives or made small show others may grow, and then we have to face that fact. If we want to really end poverty here, that's Matthew does. He's a professor of sociology at princeton university specializes in the study of poverty, you might desmond as the author of his twenty sixteen booked evicted, which, when the pulitzer prize size of examination of poverty and housing. Policy in america now he's turned his attack into a broader canvas with a new book poverty by america, in it He explores the often overlooked ways. Poverty is entrenched from tax codes to bank fees, to certain federal policies,

professor desmond jointly to discuss all of that. We tackle the efficacy, past government programmes, the challenges of passing anti poverty measures through congress. an intriguing idea of instituting a poverties are that's coming up. Stay to support for the show comes from crack in reply was like the financial system, but-

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here have one woman took a stand against logging and changed her community forever on the latest episode of into the mix before answering your questions, A quick programming note I'll be discussing the gut wrenching Israel, Hammas war with errand. The miller, the carnegie. For international peace in a special episode of stay tuned in brief, that will be released on friday instead of monday. Now, let's get questions. This question comes at an email from Alyssa: do cafe team I've heard the defendants have a right to a speedy trial. Does this right extend to prosecutors? Can trump delay his trials till after the twenty twenty four election dont the people slash prosecution, have the same right.

Can we not demand these trials happened and speedy fashion, thanks deep gratitude for keeping us informed and staying tuned alyssa, that's a great question, one that we ve talked about a little bit on the past and its, in fact, an argument that has been met. Aid in federal court in Washington DC, with respect to the pending trial and restricts case brought by special council jack smith. As you may remember, that trial date has been argued about between the trump team and the special councils team, for a number of ex now, and the government very specifically said that, although it is actually through very important fairness reasons in constitutional reasons that a defendant if he or she wants one, is entitled to a speedy trial that right also extends to the poor look into the government and I'll say something here that I said before, but it bears repeating the particular reason why we need a speedy trial with respect to donald trump and all for the matters, but certainly with respect to the federal matters is at the clock is ticking.

And accountability may not even be possible at the clock takes too long by my estimation There are three ways adult from can avoid accountability or any kind of trial altogether. Potentially, if the trials don't happen before the election and if he becomes president again number one, it would be controversial and would have to be little gated, but it might seek to pardon himself preemptively and therefore eliminate the two federal cases against him number two with a spectator Ro cases again, he could appoint someone as the attorney general united states and almost certainly would who would seek to do. The cases and not prosecute or pursue them in any way, shape or form a number. He- and this applies to all for matters- the two federal cases and a stake in georgia and the state case in new york, he could argue like with some success that this Oh I'll, see opinion offs of legal counsel, opinion in the department of justice. that prevented by mahler from prosecuting down

tromp, while he was sitting commander in chief? Would also prevent the continued prosecution of him in one of those four cases. So you are absolutely right The speedy trial right belongs not just to the defendant, but also to the government for very specific important reasons. As of outline now hold out from succeed in delaying one all four of these trials till after the election. He certainly gonna, try, I think, without question. We will not be able to get through all for trials, whether we get through any something we have to stay tuned for this question comes in a thread from thread user at met when dwarf and the question is what are the chances Jack Psmith tax on additional charges based on new reporting. The trump shared sensitive nuclear information with foreign nationals will that's great question. You know. Org play from what we see from the reporting initially by pc news and now confirmed by other sources as well is a child from very deliberately told confidential.

secret classified information to a billionaire australian businessmen, specifically about the we're capability of our submarines, in particular according to the reporting, the special the number of nuclear warheads that, though submarines carried and how close it can get to russia without being detected. the conversation apparently occurred in the context of donald trump suggesting is trailing business man that his country, should by submarines from united states reporting. Also has the australian billinger told litter the dozens of people, this information that was told to him that shouldn't have been made drop. Now. Is that a violation of long assure seems like it could be your particular question? Would it be added to the pending case in the southern too to florida. I guess there's a chance of that. I guess there's some argument that it doesn't to the same nucleus of facts relating to the documents it does not retention of classified documents about the relaying classified information to anonymous person who is not those to be in possession of that information. My guess

is. This is ranked rank speculation on my part, but in the end I'm getting. The trial done efficiently base The charter is already brought You wouldn't want to add these particular charges may be, don't need them, maybe yours for another time. There's also complicating factor of this activity of the information that was conveyed and it might be difficult the government's estimation to bring their case to try if they want to keep that information its highly highly sensitive with respect to nuclear warheads and are submarines, keep it out of court, and it may not be worth the end of the day, given they, they already have a substantial power. For strong and streamline case for this the documents already pending in the southern district, the florida I'll be right back. My conversation with met desmond support for stay tuned comes from simply safe when you're out and about with friends.

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The despite being one of the wealthiest countries in the world, the? U s, grappled with a significant poverty problem, princeton sociology, professor math desmond studies. The oars since the issue exploring what poverty persists in such an affluent nation and the solutions to eradicate it. professor matthew, desmond. Welcome to the show. Thank you pray for having me, so I don't, We talk about this issue enough. We talked about it a little bit on the show, the problem, the poverty, which persists, which and have a large voting block in favour of remedying the problem? You can studying it for a long time, but before we even talk about it at all, let's do some definitions. Who is poor? What does it mean to be poor? How do you define poverty in your academic work and is that different from how people in the public square who make policy

think about and define poverty, while officially poverties align income line that we draw around. You know six, twenty seven thousand dollars a year for a family of four, and if, just use the official poverty measure, there's about thirty, eight million of us below That line that's that's a lot of americans units around eleven percent of us. If the american poor, founded a country that country would have a bigger population than australia, but you know that's just the beginning, you know poverty isn't just an income. all of this in our exhausting piling on of problems studs harder to quantify poverty is chronic pain on top of to throw it on top of eviction. On top of your cousin, arrested. On top of you not being able to have enough food to feed your kids, it's that suffocation if your talents in your dreams at his death come early and often so from align its really this tight, not of humiliations and agonies, and it means

million of us are denied security and safety, and this in this land of abundance. I think you have paraphrased or written about this concept the James Baldwin mentioned many years ago about how extremely how extremely expensive it is to be poor, yeah. That was, I mean I Baldwin, is a source that I go back to again and again and you're right. He said that it is extremely expensive report. America gets spencer to be a poor winter in america, most potent Families now today spend at least half of their income on housing costs. for the families, but over seventy percent just on rent and utilities, you know they can't afford housing even at the bottom of the market, it's it's hard to get money and get access to capital. If your person of limited means you know every day, sixty one million dollars in overdraft, petty lending and check. Hashing fees are pulled out of the pockets of the porn, and fines and fees

all of which things are extremely regressive. After the I mean, if it that few pounds, a hundred thousand dollar jack. It's the same fee right as if you balance between our jack, That's right, and I think that we also have to recognize that we often aren't you know innocent here. You know many of us benefit from free checking accounts, but it turns out there not free in our those accounts are subsidized by eleven billion dollar year industry in overdraft fees, most of which are charged. Just nine percent of bank client seen other poor made a pay for their poverty, so I think one thing that the book tries to do page after page is say: you know this is a policy discussion is a political discussion, but this is also a moral discussion about about you and me too, and how we're kind of unwittingly implicated in the problem. I want to quote some other things back to you. By the way, I should mention the book that you recently wrote called poverty by america, which talks about a lot of these whose uranium book quote. It's a useful exercise evaluating the merits of different explanations for poverty, like those having to do

immigration or the family. Then you go on to say, but I found doing so always leads me back to the tap route, the central feature from which all other rootlets spring, which in any case, is the simple truth that poverty is an injury. A taking end quote so that implies that their perpetrate who are the perpetrators, while there are often the usual suspects, but there's a lot more than the usual suspects, and so we can think of the poor being exploited, which I think is a word should use in the labour market and the housing market and the financial markets, and you could think of the perpetrator being companies that key point is as low as possible missing providers that dr rinse as high as possible and financial institutions that burden the poor with unnecessary fines and fees, But many of us who have found some economic secured in the country are also the perpetrators. Don't we benefit when, for instance,

but we can soon the cheap goods and services the working poor produce, or we fight for tax breaks that accrue to the top twenty percent of americans or that we defend our neighborhoods from affordable housing development said hoard opportunities behind our our walls, art We part of the issue, which means: are we part of the solution to so? I think that I think a bluff as you know in america, some lives or made small, so others may grow in, and we have to just face that fact. If we want to really end poverty here, this is from a new york times review of your books. I I wonder if you think it's a fair characterization than I have a question about it in the I'm review in analyzing your books, ass quote the endurance. poverty in the united states is a product not only of larger shifts, such as the industrialists and family dissolution, but of choices and actions by more fortunate americans end quote areas at act.

And be. I just wondered when I read that if as a political matter where, if you're an advocate for anti poverty programmes and tools to fight part, be that as as message, whether its accurate or not, is it the most effective way to get people who are more fortunate, to join the consensus in favour of things that would help those who were in poverty. I do you think it's a way of building political will and I think we ve seen this in terms of other social issues. You know We accept that people, don't love to people, don't love to hear I'm. Just I'm not saying this is my argument, but I just want to test it out to sell your argument whether it's the case that people who are not you know punitive landlords or penny saving punitive employers- three others, fortunately, united states taking advantages of all the things that their privilege allows them to, whether it's the tax code or anything else,

Are they receptive to the message that they are to blame? Whose part of your message for the impoverishment of many people gear yeah I think that that's a signal I'm getting on the road. You know I've been on the road since march, since the book came out and I think there's plenty of people that can feel this. And their daily lives said somehow know this or when they them. They come to learn at our spur to action, and I think that you know that spring to action. Part isn't just about hey. You know. This is a moral thing to do it. also about painting a picture of a better country, and I think many thus recognise that if we could have a safer, you're, more vibrant cash, you if we had a lot less poverty, and I think we all recognize that this is not. Everybody wins story that some of us are going to be you take less from the government, will it sounds like your meeting more like people, then I sometimes Here about in the public square, I don't know

I mean the studies. Can I have my back to most democrats and most republicans now claim poverty is a result of structural failure, not a moral failing. Most america, I think the rich are paying their fair share taxes. I think they're right most americans on a higher minimum wage. I think, enabled a level. Faber level, there's a lot of us who want more economic justice. But I guess it depends on the thing you're talking about right. So a more efficient tax code people paying their fair share if they have a lot of money, not aging and tax evasion, those kinds of things. What about increasing the safety net? I guess there's a lot of clarity with respect to some of those things, including medical care, They just don't managed arrogant through congress yeah. I think that's the challenge. You know so I think that among the american public there is a deep and widespread desire for more economic this in the country. Frankly, there anger towards all this inequality but

translate that sentiment into real political action from congress, that's the challenge can in question. Is there a difference between the problem of poverty and the problem of income inequality? Yes, to explain that so the in the poverty at least. As I see it says, no one in the country should fall below a certain basic level of existence that all this poverty is undignified, it's an incredibly damaging, and it's really a focus on folks that have the least country. The inequality debate is connected, but separate is often a debate between the middle class in the wretch poor, are often out of the debate altogether, and so I think that, occur without any poverty is still at america that can have widespread inequality there. Their different problems-

Every time I think about this issue and in preparing for this interview in its already become apparent in the in the few minutes we ve been talking there all sorts of tools and policy mechanisms to alleviate poverty right, but they found a different areas. There is the issue of of unions and and labour power, there's taxes, his health care, there's housing. There are millions of and things all which fall under the auspices of different agency, or some different committee in congress, unless I'm missing something- and I may there's no one sort of in charge of and and maybe such a bureaucracy would not be workable, but there's one sort of in charge of thinking about poverty in all of it's forms and more more specifically, but all the tools to alleviate it because they fall under. the umbrella of so many other different agencies having a problem is there and his aunt resolve in some way at the government level on the one hand, it is a problem and I would love to see

something like a federal poverty, commission or poverty tsar being created at the highest level and that person could think of how to bring in the department of education and housing and transportation. All you know with the shared goal. full of improving the lives of economically vulnerable. Americans are even ending poverty with those buckets, but I think that the bigger game afoot right is just that we as a country tolerate a lot of tax evasion and alot lot of tax shenanigans, and it really starves are public capacity to fight this. problem a few years ago, there was a study that showed at the top one percent of americans just pay the taxes they owed. We, could raise an additional hundred and seventy five billion dollars a year, which is a huge figure. You know you could double or investment, affordable housing and still have money left over or bring back the extended shall tasks

that had so much to reduce child poverty are during covered with that kind of figure, so in a way, you know, I think that keeping our eyes on on that ball really. Matters too but is it isn't how money would be spent if suddenly government got a windfall due to more tax policing billion hundred seventy billion dollars. that wouldn't go dollar for dollar towards anti poverty programmes in the current political climate. Would it in the current political climate oh. No. You know, I am also a little had to be honest little suspicious of these framingham yak as a kind of like us, accepting a reality as practical or inevitable, and you know even in research years. We saw things that for years have been, You know, thought of is impossible, just change overnight. I'll give you just a real wonky example You know. When I wrote my last book evicted on housing crisis, I had a clear pay for or expanding more housing. You know it was to reduce the mortgage interest deduction.

and you'd go around and everyone in washington left, right and centre would say you can't touch that thing, that's impossible. You know. That's! He just, stay away as a third well and then trump reformed, which has for you know. Dial the back, and so things are impossible. So there suddenly not so I dont into dismiss real political challenges, but I also think we should be honest about how much resources the country has and how we could really end poverty in a real, tangible way. If we leverage just some of those resources, you wrote that quote: we don't need to outsmart this problem. We need to out hate it and quote what does that mean? I think that means we need to make a bigger collective investment and ending poverty and also see it as a real attainable goal. One of the things that I love about the war on poverty, which was launched by the johnson ministration and sixty four

that when they launched the war, they set a deadline. You know it wasn't. It was a rhetoric. They set a deadline for the abolition of poverty in america, so I think the first you know the first step is to recognising that the end of an attainable goal, and then you know to understand that we need to deepen our investments. You know deepened those investments by fair tax implementation, but we don't just need that. We also need different policies, policies that really address the root causes of poverty, like policies at expend a worker power for good. apple or housing choice and then we need to end our of segregation in that's kind of a three step arguments that I make that for the into poverty. true. You know, there's no silver bullet here, right there's no later than ever is neither never is, and I think that I put that out. Outsmarting out hating bet there because Well, you know, honestly, we don't. We don't need new ideas. Actually, we need a political will

in a way that this book is my call for that. You mention Lyndon johnson in the war on poverty how did the great society with respect to the war on poverty fail or did its accede to some extent? I think you have to look at the war on poverty and the great society as a success. You know these war. Things like establishing food aid is permanent. Expanding medicare social security benefits headstart job. You're. So, ten years after the war on poverty and great society relaunched, the poverty is cut in half and made a big difference now poverty.

cut in have not only because of those programs, though you know- and I think we have to recognize that you know the war on poverty was launched when a time when one in three american workers belonged to a union where real wages are climbing two percent every year, which is very far away from the situation we are now so it was launched when a time in the job market was really delivering for workers, and it was kind of a one, two punch and that's that's something we're lacking today in the country you know, even if we make deeper investments from the government, we also need the basics of american society. The job market housing market, especially to really deliver for all. Americans was social security, the greatest producer of poverty in modern america, or is it some other policy or mechanism? I think it has a real case for for being the biggest thing we've done to to cut poverty? I mean the elderly elderly poverty rates before social security were out of this,

we're out of so many americans in their several years. We're just dying penniless and you can just these huge reductions and elderly poverty. After such a courteous, I think there is a real case for that two things I want to mention you before we started recording, to you that I took a class on the issue of poverty when I was in college with one of your academic colleagues Paul pearson- and I remember for the first time when I was an undergrad grappling with two very difficult issues. One is, if you want to prove something we'll take them one by one: and as a policy matter and you're, not getting in you're advocating for something. Let's say it's an anti poverty program, but it could be anything. Do you take the half loaf or do you fight until you get the full loaf which, to my very young naive, you know undergraduate college ears was a revelation like I don't know. What's the answer that- and here I am, you- know three and a half decades later, and I still don't know the answer to that and then secondly, related

on the issue of professor pearson, opined on this on the issue of of whether you going add to the safety net. You means tested or not and, on the one hand, means testing people like because. You know folks, who have a lot of money, don't need the free care, don't need the free perk and ear you're more efficient, On the other hand, if you means test those programmes are more likely to fall out of favour, as people as you have mentioned, already exploit and take advantage of the poor, and if you want universal politics support. You always want to do something universal, like social security. So can you can you come back to the classroom with me from three thirty five years ago and addressed half loaf hole of issue and then the means testing issue always a privilege to be in conversation with Paul pearson, and one of my intellect Ah here, even if that conversation is a few years removed frightened, you know, I think, for me. There said there's a:

bigger issue on the half, though full of, and then there is a more pragmatic issue, the bigger issue is. I do think that you know these are relations that go on in was a congress and policy schools all the time you know, should you do you want? ban housing vouchers by fifty percent. If it means the people they get, it get fifty percent last these kind of conversation. I think, they're really important. but I also, I also just We need a step back and recognise that this is a land of abundance. We could do a lot more if we had a lot more so not to repeat myself the like For me, it's really hard to think of a half love and full of color. Station when you have a trillion dollars a year according the chairman of the ira, ass, being lost in tax evasion and fraud and avoidance, give it up I'm sorry, but let's, let's a citizen builders coming up for a vote and it achieves. I love and their enough sooner.

it's for against it, they're not republicans to pass the half loaf, you have a pragmatic ass to have- it has to have low, get absolutely any celebrate that passing and you celebrated by by say, look we're not at the mountain top a look at this visa, and I think The celebration is a non trivial point, because I do think that, if we're going to just not give you were to praise her promise unless we get the full love. We really rob political cap and rewards from folks, incur we're doing the work, and I do think we have to recognise and progress is made. Even if that progress isn't somewhere, we wanted to get your other the question about the universal or targeted. You know, I think that I, like the middle. I, like a middle between those two things One idea comes out of a J pow. The law, professor play of, who has aside vehicle targeted, universalism. Where he says: ok, let's

a goal and just recognise a different folks will need different things to me. Tat so maybe our goal is every american should have access to safe, affordable housing Now agree- and I go now- folks and rural america in any different things and folks in urban america, an homeowners my need anything at all, and so I think that that kind of india, is a more nimble kind of intervention into them. Those two says the debate, or you could something that might be called bigger, tent targeting. So the problem that professor peers And laid out right is that you know when it's me tested it's really efficient, but man. It stinks if you're one dollar over that line right, if you one dollar more, you know it's just it feels unfair and it causes division between working class americans in poor american somebody americans today right there take afford a mortgage but they're too rich to afford a housing voucher. You know that stinks, and so

figure. Ten targeting is to is to recognize that and to say look we're going to open up this tent to a lot more americans, bring in middle class working class and poor americans into a benefit, and so the extended tax credit and covered it did right: it was a child's subsidy, the reach middle class families work last families and the poor families had a huge effect on poverty, reduce poverty by forty six percent in six months. But a lot of folks, I weren't poor, got that benefit too. So I think those kind designs for they make a lot of sense. You don't have to go full on universal to still get a of folks tat tat by and I'll be right back, at desmond. After this. Fox creative, mrs advertiser content from u s, dairy,

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ah inspiring performance combined with luxury design as standard the time is now the all electric pollster to book a test drive and order today at paul dot, com. The. Is there a particular lesson to learn from success social security. In doing so, great job in lowering the poverty rate, on certain population of americans and cannot be replicated elsewhere or has it been? I mean one lesson: is the in part of the design is really smart right, so roosevelt, wanted so security connected to taxes when we pay that tax were like no were buying into our future. You're not heard your investing in the thing you're getting lay right, I think, was a really smart part of it.

and he did that because he knew the programme would one day fall under attack and he wanted to have sticking power, and I think that that paid off, I think, that's that's one. Last another lesson folks would just draw on, is the idea that you know payments work. You know cash pay me, really work, and there is a lot of evidence that that supports that you know from the extended shall task credit to showing that in a homelessness can be reduced by just simple tax transfers? I dont see tax transfers to the silver bullet? I don't think there are enough, but I think that they could be expanded to be part of the solution. Can we talk about something that has gained? I think some. Some currency, whereas it had less before not a lot of currency, but the idea of universal basic income. How do you think about that? As someone who studies issues? Is that a viable thing, if there is a will to do it, is it? Is it overly? Universal is inadmissible income most people, I think when they propose it they're talking about it. As the word implies universal,

that means test is not targeted. Putting aside the politics of, it is an effective way to combat poverty. I mean one of the few sound conflicted professor, I heard the sigh I mean on the one. I think I am conflicted. You know. On the one hand, we can see evidence of universal You can't come in real, tangible ways, real good. Why is you know- and you know just take the child tax credit during covered. You know by making the child taxpayer credit refundable and making it reached. The very very madame of our economic structure, we were able to see real reductions in poverty, and we turned the charter should in something like a universal child allowance. It was kind of close to you be. I actually it's really hard to argue with the results. On the other hand, oh, if we do this. Do we just

walk away from the labour market? Do we think that the labour it's gonna just run over workers, and we should invest in increasing worker power, or making sure jobs are dignified. So there's something about a you, be I that I find a little unsatisfying. You know, because I think that we need policies that make sure workers are protected? voice. Follow that what? Why would, if you took the key, labour regime and and structure, and then you and how did you be? I will that do Labour market- I think I think folks are conflicted on that issue. Some folks say that would be good for workers, because workers, especially those at the bottom of the market, to quit. You know that. a basic e b ida fall back on and then have a bit more power Economists say you know: that's really get away to just like capitalism run, run amok give it kind of licence

to run over. Workers are cut jobs because there is a: u b I standing there, and so I think we need something more comprehensive. Actually that you be, I I think we need to make deeper investments in in in poverty and that could be through cast transfers are expanding, affordable housing. We also need to attack exploitation in the labour market and the housing gets, and let me tell you why I mean if we don't account for where that money would go you now, whether you be be spent. I think that the power of the investment would be deluded. to their studies, show that when cities raise the minimum wage, for example, that really helps tenets pay their rent for a little bit and then the housing market kind of catches up with a wage benefit and that that's lost money in the family's pocket. So I I think paying attention to those kind of dynamics is incredibly important to

So, if I understand correctly, the minimum wage obviously should be increased and is an important thing, but not as effective as some people think that fair well, if it's the only thing, we do Well, it has limited effect because markets can catch up. So look what happened during covered workers, fine, they gotta arrays right. There is in serious wage inflation. But in two thousand twenty one rents went up. Eleven percent nationwide, which is the highest on So suddenly those wage bumps don't get you very far, and so I think that this kind of floor and ceiling approach, is really necessary to make sure money stays in talks pocket if you had to rank these things or do a pie chart of the things that affect income. the lowest levels and in among your choices and probably leaving some out we're housing, health care, education, job training, etc. How'd you rank those things

toughie, I feel like you're. Putting me in a scarcity mindset. I don't wanna be like I don't wanna old fashioned old guy fashioned old guy knock it off. We gladly aren't answer your question, but I just want to say it makes me a little uncomfortable because it gives us gives the impression that we have to choose how think we do and I don't know, I guess I guess it's not just the way, I think about it and we're I'm coming out from if I was a policymaker and I know you can do everything all at once, but you really can't unless you're you're, making a movie that wins the academy award time and political capital are, I think, scarce resources- and I love your mind set about. Why do everything not your pick and choose If I was, if I were a senator governor, I was going to my first term and I want to do something katy ten things at once I would want to know what had them devastating effect on poverty, and which obstacles most easily remove would have the biggest effect, at least initially on the problem of poverty. That's what I would ask me, staff to do not because it all

to do those other thing, but I want to know where we're do. I begin s fair question, so I wanted I'd start with housing. I think stable shelter. Everything else falls apart and you know see this in the data that housing first studies, that kind of greenhouse chronically huh His folks were serious health problems or addiction issues and he's the real effects on those issues, but only after stable housing as established. So if you want kids got the same school year after year, you gonna have stable housing if you want them to form process, connections with people, their neighborhoods role models gotten cancers, they gotta be able to stay in the neighborhood. You know if you want kids to get off to eat. Other parents have stop paying seventy, eighty percent of their income to to rent in others is really moving finding tat you see in the data on what families do when they find the receiver housing voucher after ears and awaiting us when they find their see this ticket. That allows entirely.

Thirty percent of their income to rent and what they do is they buy more food. You know, and so I think that starting with housing is, is an essential part of their power. motion. We pause on housing for second and something I know you ve written about, and I would say quietly to shocked, liberals and conservatives alike. I, when I was young, go. I fully took advantage in my life of this tax policy of the the mortgage deduction. If you owner, if you wanna home the mortgage interest abduction to explain what that is, what the logic behind it is and whether you and whether or not you think, that's a good thing. It's not a good thing Since the seduction was a mistake. Can the tax code. It was an accident actually with something that we had an attack so to support small businesses, but then, after the g I bill kind of created homeward.

in the country. We suddenly had something of those baked into a lot of americans budget and its become this real. Incredibly regressive. Tax policy. Where you know most of the deduction is provided a homeowners on the top twenty percent. Income distribution. We spend about a hundred ninety billion dollars every year, we are on homeowner tax subsidies and only about fifty billion dollars and direct housing says this is the idea. Most people may know this, but maybe there's some young folks who don't appreciate it, because they're not homeowners, if you're carrying cost for an apartment is five thousand dollars a month which would be totally normal in new york city. You pay five thousand dollars a month, so taxes, if it whatsoever, I guess it might be, do if you're renting your apartment, it's a difference, potentially, if you're, if you're, if you have a condo or you have a co up in new york. But if you bought a house- and you have a mortgage and your

total monthly payout is five thousand dollars, some portion of that is you're, paying back the principal, but some portion of that is the interest for which you get a tax deduction at your general taxable rate, so that five thousand dollars that you pay out. You end up getting a considerable portion of that back. If I said it correctly, that's right. In the abstract, you know it seems like an for a middle class homeowner. It can make a lot of sense by only about what one it forward. In five, busted itemised or taxes anymore, you gotta itemised to take the deduction. If your Amazing, your already put pretty well off, and you know it Look in the data. This isn't a middle class benefit. This is a really an upper class benefit, so I would be all for like keeping the mortgage the direction if it could be a middle class working class benefit but right now you can take the direction for a second home and our vieira cabin so That's. Why is it so persistent, and this is an example of something that mean sort of

little bit like social security right like everybody likes it, the gotten used to it. That's other budgeting, homeowners, and their payments and how you would phase it out, it's hard, it's hard to take something away from people than do than to give it to people driven understand. that that is a lodestar of money for the federal treasury that is enormous right- it's not trivial, and I think that that law of part, said, Arthur Oakum, articulated, had when you give them Thing is someone: thou shall not take it away, It really only applies to the middle class and rich the salt deduction. You know, I mean yeah, I mean the salt deduction, but men look at public housing right. We built it then dynamited it. You know, look at covert, we expanded the child tax credit and then took it away, and so a lot of times we're doing that for for poor folks. But for for middle class and upper class folks man, those programs we really sticky and part of the reason. The mortgage seduction, sticky, his big.

As it has a massive lobby behind it, the villagers actually or the second biggest lobby in america. Just by dollars- spent every year just right after the chamber of commerce, has a powerful lobby group and they really care about keeping this thing around, because it inflate see value of of homes in there in the business of solid. I in homes. We also need to face the fact that a lot of our democratic representatives are, in really high housing markets, so a seminar

the thousand dollar home in new york or san francisco, is a pretty good deal in the rest of the country's, not like that. So there have been democratic representatives in incredibly high housing markets that have defended the mortgage deduction as a middle class benefit because where they live, it kind of is, but you know they live in pretty unique places in the country. So, in my unfair question about ranking in the hierarchical manner the various problems housing you put first, would you put next? It would be employment, jobs. Well, the jobs have to be good. You know in a way, and so No, our unemployment numbers are pretty good right now. The problem is waged stagnation, fermented without a college degree, their real wages are inflation. Adjuster wages are less than they would have been fifty years ago. and so I think that that you know lack of power in the market. It really matters and no matter what

Anyone thinks of unions her labour power. It's really hard to argue that when unions rather peaks drinks, that was our most economically equitable time in america. In the nineteen seventies, And so I think that investing in a worker power and finding ways of making organizing easier than it is today is an incredibly important part of the solution. You talked with the poverty line and in a where you put it we're academics and others put and I wonder if there is a a metric for measuring and which are out of phrases. How many people are liable to some single bats are from sin like a catastrophic illness, are vulnerable to crossing back into the poverty line, even though their above it at the moment does not make any sense at all.

Yeah. I don't know the answer to that question. I do know that if you spend a lot of time and poor neighborhoods, you see a lot of sickness and you see a lot of folks dealing with chronic pain and and disability. So I think that having a fool, throated, adequate healthcare system which clues dental care, which might sound incidental, sir, you and me that like for a lot of folks in poor neighbourhood, I just can't afford it and they lived real, painful stuff going on in their mouths. Dangerous stuff too, musical of their simple things like I had not appreciated in may? I've killed and appreciate how big a deal it is to have medical programmes, health insurance programmes cover hearing it. Now it is not that become a big deal. No there. Absolutely and again. This is kind of the american trade off we made with the affair.

What care act we kind of, let prices be what they are and and the affordable care act covers. So now we have this kind of dubious distinction of spinning the most on health care of any other advanced democracy, but still not having full coverage. I think the models that are working in other countries make a lot more sense. There are people who say that the thing that, over the course of human history, We then has improved the quality of life of people and most lifted them out of poverty has been the advent of capitalism, discuss, Well, I think that, on the one hand, it's really hard to argue with the leaps forward globally that the world has experienced with the opening up of trade and the opening up of markets. On the other hand, it's interesting now, if you make cut off for that story like two dollars a day. The number of people living in two dollars a day, poverty there's a lot of progress. If you move the cut off date,

at three dollars a day, four dollars a day, there's a lot less progress actually, and so I think that, for for me you could have a capitalism that is incredibly anti poverty. That is incredibly just economically. I don't feel like we have that capitalism in America today and you know- the early defenders of capitalism, that's what they wanted right. John Stuart mill was like hey man. If this thing doesn't lift everyone out of poverty, I'm going to be a company, I'm a communist. I want to ask you a comparative question: are there things to learn from other countries with respect to this issue having fewer people under the poverty line mean? On the one hand, the biggest thing to learn from other

countries about the secret sauce, and you know the secret sauce of the fact that we've got a lot more poverty than other advanced democracies right. Our child poverty rate is double germanys and south korea's are in canada, so we're really in a different class when it comes to our peer nations was rejected at the level of poverty. So what are they doing differently and in a phrase they're just collecting a lot more taxes. Then we are in it. We collect about twenty five percent of our gdp in taxes every year. Switzerland's in the netherlands, but even like ITALY in ireland, are collecting between thirty five and thirty percent of their gdp in taxes, so they just, they can just make deeper investments in the public eye That's that's one lesson, but also of the lesson about what you get from doing. That is you get a different feel of a country and I was in nuremberg, germany, not a girl. I stayed out late and I walked back to my

how very late at night- and it was a long walk, and I didn't once worry about my safety. For example, you know, I think you get you get higher levels of public safety and those countries you get publican structure. That is something that a lot of people want to use and said. I I think you you get a different steel on the ground that we often have in. in our cities, I mean it. I think one things that shocks europeans when they come here is just how much public facing poverty. We haven't in cities like new york or san Francisco who's, the last public political figure of national stature who placed the issue of poverty at the centerpiece of their campaign, the the one that comes to mind for me, passed away before I was born is: is Robert Kennedy had there been others that I'm forgetting about her way. There's a lot of people still workin on us riots. Think of some, unlike congresswoman

rosetta laura, who represents newhaven. Cannot a cat she's been poverty out of tat ever since she arrived and in congress, she has a bill right now. Call the american families to reinstate the expenditure tax credit in out she's been fighting for this for a while, and you think a folks like- Barbara Lee or Elizabeth war, and that this has been part of their agendas on the national level. On the presidential level. I think that you know front for that office they suddenly stop saying poverty. I remember talking. hurry bucker, maybe a couple months ago on this, they tell me you that when he ran for president, he asked his team When the last time they asked her to bay question about child poverty and unprecedented debate, it was like twenty five thirty years ago, what what would you think there's a focus in I for prisoners humor for number of years. Who cares about poverty? Cares about a lot of issues, but you know when you, when you choose a thing you emphasise publicly, and I think there is good reason for this. Obviously, middle class

We talk about the middle class in this country a lot and I think that's important and that's good is at the expense of talking about people who are impoverished, or can they both be done together? with equal emphasis, it's hard to solve a problem. You name it, We have to solve a problem that you refuse to talk about, and so I, do you think there are. There are policies that can help the middle class and do very little to help the poor, like the rig Her old child tat credit that was a middle class benefit. It really didn't reach poor families in america, and so I do thinks there is as politics the solidarity that we have to keep in mind. If we don't want the middle classes there against or somehow you know, come at the expense of the poor. But

but I also I want to see more more folks run from president. My folks at our highest offices, say you know what the stairs just too much poverty in this land and and I wanna work to end it. Professor Matthew, desmond things through work on this issue. nations again on the book and thanks for being on the show. Now, thanks to this very conversation, I really enjoyed it. My conversation with my desmond continues for members of the cabin. Higher community. In the bonus for insiders, we flesh out the role of a potential. U S, poverty tsar did you know The department of housing in urban development does not know how many people it affects every year in the housing that it itself owns action, is in part of their evaluation process. So, I think a poverty is, I would say, that's a problem. We should know that data to try them

shit for just one dollar for a month had the cafe that come slash. Insider again, that's capita come slash. Insider I want to end the show this week by talking about the devastating news that has emerged out of Israel in Gaza over the last week. Militants last saturday launched a brutal and barbaric terrorist attack on Israel, killing over twelve hundred israelis, including babies and the elderly. Israeli government has responded with air strikes against gaza and are seemingly preparing for a ground invasion. as of this taping on Wednesday, over one and gazans have been killed in violence that continues to spiral. Mass is also taken around two hundred and fifty hostages, including american citizens. The growing conflict,

let a divisive debates in the united states, but amid the rancor and the non stop reporting of atrocities in carnage. There are also stories of courage, selflessness and heroism. The news is still clouded by the fog of war, but the stories are incredible. This is what I'd like to focus on one evil com His heroes often appear. Here's one example: he tie and had aren't. British nevsky were a thirty year old couple with ten month old twins. They lived at the kfar as occupants near the badly hit border town. the road ass, a mosque, I'm in closed in the british huskies, hid their twins, the secret safe from in their home. The couple then fought the gunman and were killed, but there,

Children were discovered unharmed by israeli security forces around twelve hours later. What a brutal and heroic act of self sacrifice. Here's another story, a profound selflessness, Alexander look was a thirty three year old from Montreal, who was at the supernova music festival, an outdoor electronic, music event that Hamas attacked killing at least two hundred sixty attendees look his parents, as he ran from gunfire with larger group and tried to hide in a bunker. His parents heard shooting and listen to look till his friends that the terrorists were coming back, then, no more shortly, After that looks, parents received a message from another attendee who told them that look had died. Protecting many others, the woman told looks parents quote he was our shield. I swear to you. He was our shield if it wasn't for him all thirty of

Then there would be dead. Many of the hostages taken by Hamas have led spiralling lives devoted to seeking peace between Israel and palestine one is the canadian born seventy four year old, vivian silver, who was abducted from kibbutz? Very new Eastern border with Gaza silver is the director of the arab jewish centre for empowerment, equality in cooperation and a founding member of women wage peace, both conversations work with israeli and palestinian activists to find common ground in twenty twenty one silver told forbes about her passionate commitment to securing peace between the two sides quote. We made peace with Jordan and we made peace with egypt when israelis didn't think it would happen, and the same thing can happen with palestine. That's what I expect and that's what I'm working for. That's what I'm putting my life on the line for end quote

innocence from Gaza. Israel and around the world are killed in the crossfire, the peaceful words. father a resonating around the world, Yakov argon, His daughter, Noah, twenty five was kidnapped by moss militants from the supernova festival and taken away in the back of a motorcycle. A video of her abduction has gone viral yakov, while leading for the safe return of his daughter on israeli news, also took a moment to plead more broadly for peace and to knowledge, the brutality of the growing warren gazans and Israel these alike quote they, the gazans, have casualties and dead. To? Let's use our emotion. We are two people from one father because of the bible. Please, let's have real peace, real peace, real peace. I wish that it.

happen and quote: my heart goes out to all of those who have lost loved ones and who are suffering amid this terrible violence, and I hope that these stories of humanity, in the face of one impossible horrors can give some solace to those who are in so much pain. Will that's it for this episode of statehood. Thanks again my guest matthew, desmond. If you like what we do rate, review, the show one apple pie or wherever you listen positive review. Helps new listeners, find the show send me questions about news, politics and justice: tweet them to me at praetor are with the hashtag asked pre. You can all Now reach me on threats,

im call me a message at six: nine to four seven, seven, three, three, eight that six, six nine too for free You can send an email to letters. A cafe dotcom stated this presented by cafe and the vocs media podcast network. The executive producer is tomorrow, suffer the technical director is David sure the senior producer is matthew, Billy and the They team is no oscillate david curl andor, not wiener. Jake kaplan number shaft and claudia Hernandez. Our music is by andrew dost. I'm your host pre baronne stay tuned support, for they turn comes from meant mobile. If you're looking to give yourself a little give this holiday season, maybe considered the gift of savings right now, when you

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