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today on something you should know where did mother's day come from, and why were there so many lawsuits about it, then they say laughter is the best medicine. So what happens when you laugh? Really, our brains are changing. When you laugh, we released a cocktail of hormones, and so in essence, as far as our brains are concerned, laughing is like exercising meditating and having sex. At the same time also, why does your stomach growl at exactly the wrong moment? So everyone hears you and your partner are going to fight. So if you're going to fight, have a good fight, a good fight, you can still go to bed and then never go to bed angry. We don't believe in that. You need to be in a good mental place when you're having this discussion with someone, it's okay to say, I'm really having a rough time because of this. This and this, can we pick this up later all this today, something you should know the,

John farm income in the united states was a loss of eleven one hundred dollars. Sixty percent of u s, pork comes from one company wholly owned by the Chinese, and farmers are more likely to commit suicide than veterans. Folks, we got a problem, I'm lucinda, eighth generation farmer and founder of Moyes Lou blurs. Oh, we offer

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Welcome to something you should know it won't be long before were celebrating mother's day. This episode has been published in march, and in may it will beat mother's day. Do you know the origins of mothers day There are little fuzzy because as the ancient greeks and romans dedicated festivals to mother goddesses. So you could kind of call back the beginning of mothers day, but according to readers, digest today's version of mothers day in the united states, can be attributed to one woman. A jarvis who actually wasn't a mother herself. She organised. The first observance of mothers day in nineteen o eight to honour her own mother who, died three years earlier, It wasn't necessarily to celebrate all mothers. It was supposed to be to celebrate the best mother you have ever known, in other words your mother.

Nineteen fourteen president woodrow Wilson name mother's day and official holiday, but what's interesting is this holiday? That celebrated with? Hugs and flowers actually became one of anger, obsession and litigation for Anna Jarvis, the founder of mothers day she fell, that the holiday was being hijacked by greeting card companies and candy in flower companies, and they were all just corrupting her vision of what mother's day was supposed to be all about. So she ended up organizing boycotts and protests, and she spoke out against people, including eleanor Roosevelt, for using the day to raise money for charity and she was involved in thirty three lawsuits by, Nineteen? Forty four So as you celebrate mother's day and enjoy the holiday, this may realise.

Is that there was a lot of fighting and bickering about it before I got to be this wonderful, peaceful holiday that we now all celebrate, and That is something you should know, who doesn't enjoy a good, laugh wheel, things that are funny and humorous. There's something very special that happens when people laugh together and enjoy humor together. Still, there does seem to be something kind of frivolous about humor, it's not We part of life. So much is it something to do to take a break from the serious part of life and that may be exactly the wrong way to look at it according to naomi bag donors naomi as a lecturer at Stanford university, school of business, media consultant and coach and author of the book, humor seriously humor, is a secret weapon in business and life,

hi nail me welcome for having me so explain. Why humor comedy laughter being funny, why that's important tools rather than just being a break from everything. Humor. A far more important than we think for productivity connection, creativity, influence, and even our emotional and physical wellbeing, and yet we don't think of it this way, and so we know from the research that around age, twenty three people fall off a humor cliff. In essence, we stop laughing. We stop believing ourselves to be funny, and so, as a result, its fleetly under leverage asset in our lives, and especially in our workplaces? Are workplaces are far too humorless? This is Actually, a learning, skill and people he d start making these small shifts in behavior and mindset to start changing, not just the way we work, but also the way that we live

wanna hear more about the humor cliff, because I've never heard of the humor cliff before I die fall off of it. I can Well, then, you are an anomaly in a data set of over one point: four million people across a hundred and sixty six countries and as part of this research individuals were asked a really simple question: did you smile or laugh a lot yesterday and what we ve from the data is at age. Sixteen, eighteen, twenty! The answer is pretty consistently bs then, at age, twenty three all of a sudden we start to see a lot more knows. In fact, if you look at the data, people fall off a cliff and that that cliff, doesn't start climbing back up again until around each seventy five. And so we have all these misperceptions about humor, Firstly at work, and we just- top laughing and why do you suppose that is it the great quest

We actually doug into that exact question as well, so we serve aid over a thousand people asking them. What holds you back from using humor at work because, of course, aid twenty three is when we enter the workforce, and what we uncovered are these spore myths that people have about humor and try our best to debunk these myths. So the first is the serious business smith. The idea that, if you take your work seriously. You have to be serious all the time and in fact we find that this is actually counter. productive, especially for leaders. We know that yours with a sense of humor are seen by their employers as twenty seven percent, more motivating that their employees are fifteen, but add more engaged in their jobs, their teams are likely to solve creativity, challenges and humor more hardly can reduce stress and help us accomplish really serious things next week, a failure. Myth, that's the idea that if you fail it's going to be hugely

detrimental to your career and in fact, Researchers brad bitterly maurice schweitzer and allison would brooks at harvard and wharton have done summary on s and have found that as long as your humor is still appropriate, then there isn't as asthma risk, as we think, and in fact, if we fail, that is if we don't get laughter, but the joke is still appropriate then it'll still boost other people's perceptions of our confidence in the process. Third, the boy and was at best? This is the aim. yeah. That humor is an innate ability, not a learned skill, but I can tell you from for five years of teaching this at Sanford's graduate school of business that humor can be learned, its skill we can develop and in particular its a mindset that we can shift to make it. You're too fine joy in our lives and then lastly, is the being funny myth- and this is the idea that, in order to benefit from humor at work, you have to actually beef funny. You have to be telling jokes, and this is

completely backwards. In fact, one of the worst you can do is try to be funny at work instead, this is just about having a sense of humor. So we talk about navigating your life on the precedence of a smile being generous with your laughter and looking for reasons for joy. I have worked for people who have absolutely no sense of humour and I find that will often in conversation when you try to inject humour that it get those blank stairs and goes nowhere as so. I imagine that how much humor you can have in a workplace is by the boss. If you have a fairly humorless boss, are likely to have a fairly humorless workplace. Yeah the so setting the tone from the top is incredibly important. What we tell the leaders we work with, as if you're not comfortable using humor yourself, that's completely fine, the most employ

isn't thing you can do as a leader is be a bit were generous with your laughter and employee signal that you have a sense of humor, so I would talk format it here about why physiologically. This is really important, because a lot of people think ok well, this is just are so ology, and this is you, know, sort of a funding. the last thing, but really our brains are changing when we laugh so we released a cocktail of hormones. We release, for example, endorphins which give us something like a runners high, we lower our cortisol, so we feel calmer, less stressed. Thank you. No ten minutes of attention. We release see, toasted and which is often called the love hormone, our trust This is also release during certain types of physical touch and so in essence, as far as our brains are concerned, laughing is like exercising meditating and having sex at the same time, and weigh more efficient and my point of view. So

important here is that these changes in our physiology change, not just how we feel and how we behave, but it also changes how other people perceive us, so they perceive us as higher status. More persuasive, so laughter is not just something fun, frivolous. It fundamentally changes, how we as humans, feel and how other people perceive us. I think and this goes back to those myths there or those beliefs that people have the cause them to fall, the cliff there is a perception and I've. I've felt it because I tend to go for the joke. I tend to try to find the humour in this situation, but then I sometimes especially in a meeting or in a work situation, think yeah. If you do that people, I'm gonna take you seriously. You're the joke stir and you better be very careful with this. What we find

that, in general, people are so far indexed in the other direction that, if your weaving humor and in general, it's gonna benefit you and the culture that you're that your end we I also know that humor makes us more persuasive. So studies have shown that even including a light hearted line at the end of a sales pitch, like my final offers, and I'll throw my pet frog will increase. where's willingness to pay by eighteen percent. Now this is an open, actively lame joke, but what's happening here, is the person on the other side of the negotiations table there cortisol going down, they feel more comfortable. You are now more persuasive in their eyes and by the way they walk away from that negotiation. Feeling better her about the sales price than those paid eighteen percent lower but didn't have the joke that's really interesting, again it it flies in the face of this idea that you know, ok,

it's fun. But here we were doing serious work here and and there's just no room for that, and and or there certainly not room for much of it, and so that brings up the question. So how much is enough for me you we can. Just yuck it up all day. We still have to do the work so, where where's the line, if there is a line. again in general, are workplaces are far too humorless and again This is not about cracking jokes, it's about showing up as more human and our workplaces, and so what does that mean to be more human? I mean if europe ITALY, serious person, you don't you're, not comfortable yakking, it up you're, not comfortable laughing a lot you two serious person, and you don't we I mean how do you become humor full. If you are, if you Humor less it's a great question.

I would challenge that because we behave differently at work than we do at home and so One exercise that we do our students is, we have them, do a an email at it. So, they have to go back after, have to sent folder of their emails and look at their last ten emails, and we have a competition called a jargon off, and students have to find the most agreed just business speak that Dave used right attached, please. and I regret fully, I will be unable to attend the meeting whatever that That is correct. written by a robot and you I mean it is impressive what our students come up with from their sent folders- and this is incredible- pervasive, so we know that the more Acknowledging mediated our communication becomes the easier it to lose our sense of humor and our humanity along the way right. We are community through robes,

and so we start to behave like robots and so being more human, and I would I would bet that if you check your sent folder if anyone listening checks their sent folder, there are ways in which we are behaving in interacting at work. That are not how we would behave and interact on the weekends with people who are our friends and loved ones. It's about bringing more of that weaken self to work with. You because the benefit of doing that is what other than what you ve already talked about about, how it's good for you. physiologically to laugh and have humour in your life and may be good for relationships, but how does it help the business? hbr survey found that fifty eight percent of individuals would rather trust stranger than their boss right. So trust an incredible issue in our world right now and showing more humanity showing that we have a sense of humour that we are. You know some

Our employees would feel comfortable hanging out with, on the weekends, makes a really big difference and having people feel, comfortable around you feeling, like your more approachable and so one example of this is the custom former ceo of twitter he at one point walked into the elevator it twitter one morning and in his seat, yo too, growing, I'm incredibly fast, and standing at the back. The elevator in here someone whisper, oh my gosh, I think the ceo and you overhears us- and he says hello- yes, I'm dick casal, I'm the ceo, I'm a real I'm, a real human being flesh and bone nice to meet you there. He reaches out and shakes her hand in the whole elevator erupts in laughter and dick realized. There was this incredible status barrier that has built up where people and this wasn't she whispered in the elevator right? This was people aren't feeling comfortable, bringing him hard news. People aren't feeling come people being, ah, you know open with him about what's going on in the company and so started.

using these elevator rise everyday as way is to talk to other people company as ways to humanize himself and he knew that those moments in the elevator were then being talked about. You know in the lunchroom and in meetings later in the day, and so- and this is worse, just one way that he did it, but he had many technique. that he used to show that he had a sense of humour to show that he was a regular person and Skull really was to cut down the status barrier Naomi beg donors is my guest. Her book is called humor seriously. humor- is a secret weapon in business in life.

The hit series claim to fame is back on a b c from executive producers of love is blind and hosted by superstar brothers, Kevin and franklin Jonas watch and play along as these new celebrity relatives do whatever it takes to keep their famous family a secret. Don't miss claim to fame new mondays at eight seven central on a b c and stream on hulu. Are you currently enjoying the show on the stitcher app? Then you need to know. Stitcher is going away on august, twenty nine yep going away as in gone dead, rest in peace, stitcher and thanks for fifteen years of service to the podcast community, so switch to another podcast app and follow this show their apple spotify or wherever you listen, so naomi, I have known people, I've worked for people just been in social situations with people

They have a sense of humor. It's just that my sense of humor. I don't find them funny. I'm sure they probably don't find me the all that funny, but in other words, sense of humor is great, but not everybody likes the same sense of humour so We know from research that there are four broad humor styles that people tend to fall. into those are the stand up, the sweetheart, the sniper and the magnet. So we got a stand up, those are bold irreverent. You know afraid, ruffles, others to get a laugh, think Amy, Schumer or eddie murphy. Next it sweetheart earnest understated. These people his humour that lichens the mood and lifts people up so think boeing, from us and now or jimmy kimmel. Next, you got the snake and these people are edgy sarcastic a little more intervene voted, but they are masters of the unexpected dig. So this

you don't think Michel, wolf or belburg. And lastly, you ve got the magnet so bad myths are expressive. Charismatic, bit silly and really easy to make laughed so think. Someone like Jimmy fallen so What we know is understanding your own huber style is also going to help you get a window into what your risks are, so either asked earlier about over indexing. Well, that's a toad magnet risk magnets, to be aware of how much there using humor how silly they are with their humor. You know, because that's the biggest risk On the other side of the spectrum, you have the sweetheart AMOS labour sniper these are really stingy with their laughter like you, ve, gotta, very hard to make a sniper, laugh and so forth. Neighbours in a leadership role. some of the coaching but I'll do with them is around hey. Listen here, the benefits of you just signalling. You have a sense of humour and that's it What will start to work on along with you know these principles from key.

but he, like you, never want to punch down. You wanted. Humor that's uplifting, especially if you're in a leadership role. So It really does very by humor style As I am listening to you, I it dawned on me that that one of the problems in the struggles that people have with this is that the there's humor. And then there's also discipline and you think of a military, not the funniest organization in the world, and that that if you allow too much humour that discipline will break down, is that is that a fair assumption that people have that people operate under lately and ass the serious business math right. But if you want to accomplish serious things, you have to be serious along the way and disciplined. You know And all of these other characteristics that, of course, in a traditional model of work we needed, but we are moving away from. You know simple problem, in our world and more and more, we need more creativity. We need more. You know,

were solving different types of problems that are not as straightforward as perhaps perhaps they they used to be, and so that so there one study done of over fifty teams and these are real working teams and researchers videotaped, one, our team meetings discussing actual things that these people working on. Well, we then had an independent group of observers rate. Whether or not with laughter in that meeting, whether or not there was humor so did the team laughed together? They then had the bosses of these teams. The supervisors rate, the team across it whole bunch of characteristics both in the moment and also six months later, and what they found was that of these. Fifty teams, the teams that had humour that had a more where they all laughed together, had more productive function, functional communication,

a performed better as a team as raided by the supervisor, both in the moment and also six months later, and so I mean there's a wealth of research that shows what humor exists in a team. They're gonna perform better and they is not just about them. Having better relationships, although by the way, having a close friend at work is one of the greatest predictors of retention of whether or not you leave your job. It's also because when we laugh, we become more creative. It began comes a more psychologically safe environment. People are comfortable sharing their ideas that maybe they wouldn't otherwise and where well to bounce back more quickly from setbacks as well, one of my greatest most satisfying joys in life is and I get into a conversation with someone and laughter starts and it builds in it builds. I can do this with with my son's, so a couple of friends my brother, my wife, where it just

it just becomes uncontrollable laughter. I did it with my son. The other day and we were both laughing so hard and he was standing up and he just fell down, he was laughing so hard and those moments are just to me the best there magical app. the loudly and no one wants to lead a boring life. No, to have a boring conversation, and yet we are risk of and so even that moment right that moment with your son, you're laughing your crying that Those moments are gonna, be the ones that you remember years from now or decades from now By the way. This is not just you know, we hoo this is because your brain is releasing dopamine and so you're actually locking those moments into your short and long term memory and similarly in business right. We all remember those teams that we ve been a part of where it feels like

away just comes more easily right. You walk into a room, and you know no matter what you have to tackle that day. You're going to be able to get through it and you're gonna find some joy in the process, and we reminisce about those teams that we ve been a part of what we I realise is that we, creating those environments in every team we work on. If we are more generous with our laughter, four navigating our lives on the precipice of a smile, it were showing up as more human, and you know it more broadly than that. My my partner in crime at stanford, doktor jennifer, occur. she spent her career researching what drives human well being what drives happiness verses? What we think and one of most profound revelations that we had from this work. Is they stems from the exact opposite place that you would think we'd go, which is from death. So research has been done with hospice workers around what people wish

or in their final days of life and from this research, five beams emerged, so these are the five things that people regret in their last days of life and those are boldness. Authenticity presents joy and so boldness. I with I wish I'd been less fearful of change. I wish I'd. Take bolder, taken bolder risks, authenticity. wish that I had lived there that was true to myself now what other people thought. I should be put since I wish I had lived lesson. My past and my future, and instead savoured at the moment, joy. and this is an important phrasing. I wish I had let myself be happier. I wish I had not weakened myself so serious and let myself find joy love. I wish I had the chance to say I love you one more time and what's profound about this work in the reason that we spend a lot.

Six years of our lives on this topic of humor is humor mitigates each of these I've regrets. So we know that when people, when we have environments of laughter and levity, people are less risk averse they take bolder chances and they have this stronger social support systems to back them up for authenticity We know that when people are showing up with more humor, they care less about what other people think and they do more of what they believe. Humor empowers us to do. That presents all of humor- and this is you know, comedy one o one is about listening, really carefully, it's about being in the moment and waiting for that. Simple truth that you can make a call back to where you can. You know, react to in a way that that is unexpected. Joy of This one is, is perhaps the most obvious, but when we

navigate our lives on the precipice smile. We find more opportune. These for joy. Again, joy comes more easily and lastly, love- and this is where apps and unusual connection by you know, Michael Louis, the author, he in art We had a conversation with him and it's the afterward of the book and the last line is where there is humor love- isn't far behind in its our thesis that Their sharing a laugh with someone is a little display of love right. You laughing with your son, you crying, and you know him falling on the floor laughing. It's a display of your care and your love for each other well. I think everybody knows just inherently that humor, and laughter. But not only just feels good in the moment buddy. You know that the the feelings lingered that that that it must be in some way good for you,

oh there's one more thing off here and that point, which has been one of our favorite studies, was conducted in norway, and this is a study that links humor tools gravity, but she's pretty profound. So it was ten year longitudinal study in Norway, where they asked people do you feel, like you, have a sense of humour and what they found was that individuals who say that they have a sense of humor is not I'm funny just. I have a sense of humour that these people work thirty percent, more resistant to severe disease. They lived on average eight years longer, and I mean this, the whole body of research around what happens to us physiologically when we laugh that we increase blood flow. You know physically there there are some health benefits to laughter but that's another factor here too, all really last twenty minutes or so has really been nothing but reason. After reason, after reason to lighten up and and have fun in and laugh it up a little bit

my guest has been naomi bag. Us she is a lecturer at stanford, university, school of business, a media consultant and coach, and the book is humor seriously. Humor is a secret weapon in business and in life and you'll find a linked to that book in the show notes, thanks nail, This was fun things I it was really nice talking to you and thanks for what you do were big fan of the podcast and it's amazing. How can currently you are able to have a really interesting conversations and teach things that people should know. have you ever met anybody whose in a marriage or relationships say you know what we fight, I do really well, I'm really good at it I've never heard anybody say that, until today, it's kind of trusting to think that every couple fights people in any relationship argue and disagree.

when we fight we, mostly just kind of stumble through it well Why not actually get better at it? possible and it is according to pen holderness. He and his wife have come as close as you can get. I suppose. To getting really good at fighting with each other and they written a book called everybody fights. So why not get better at it? I pen, thanks man thanks for having me so let's start with, why you became a master at fighting and what brought what brought you and your wife to decide. Hey weedy. They get really good at this sure. Well, wife came, and I have been married for seventeen years now and, We, like you, can multiply those years by seven and make it like over a hundred in dog years, because we worked together and we lose, together and we run a company together, and so all of that put together has led to a bit of a powder keg when it comes to our relationship after

the early honeymoon phases of our marriage. We started getting in a lot of fights and we couldn't figure out why we kept having the same fights over and over again. So we did what people do and what I recommend a lot of people do we went to counselling and figured out what was going wrong and were so inspired by the help that we got really how simple it was that we wanted to cash share it well. My senses than a big part of the problem is that even it when people read books and listen to you and go to seminars and you can get all this information about how to disagree and how to fight better but in the moment, when the fight actually is going on, it's very hard to to put the anger and the emotion aside and be very go and talk about our feelings went when you're so upset. I think you're zactly right, one answer, thing is there's a party or bring, and it's the part that controls your speech

and when you're stressed out or you're getting in a fight it sort of surrender to the other parts, your body and it starts it, stops working as well, and so when you hear someone say I'm so mad at you. I can't even talk to you. That's a physical article reaction, yeah well, then there is the problem right there. How do you discuss this well You can barely discuss it at all. One at one of the things that we talk about is the escalating it's you have to take. In time, just a chill out it could be taking a few depress. It could be kind of pingaree. We used to be by the way horrible ass. We would just plough through the fight and it devolve into fighting about all sorts of things that we didn't even start talking about. In the first place you ve got a chill out and let that nervous system can come down before got any farther with the fights, let's step number one, and then once you get into fight itself. It's about the, way that you say things not necessarily what it is that you're saying, because

percent of all communication, and I'm not the one who invented this? It's been said a lot of times. Ninety percent of all communication is actually nonverbal. It's in the way that you say it. It's in your tone, times? It's in how loud you are, how close you are to someone and what you're doing with your body in your hands and so how do you do that? Well, Let's say you and I are getting in a fight because Michael you, don't like the way that I too right if you say, you're, really, taking me off with the way that your chewing your food right now, it's not as effective, because you're kind of accusing somebody of doing something? It's not as effective as if you were to say, hey pen, feel a little stressed out, and This sounds that I'm hearing there making me feel uncovered. So you're going from your acting or you should into I feel, Talk about your personal feelings there, your own and you can't really argue with them- and people have to respect them.

If somebody's chewing is bothering you chances are. I bet that it's been, bothering you for a long time. You never say anything. You never say anything, you never say anything and then, when you finally say something you get mad about it, there's something really interesting for us. When you get to be with someone for appear of longer than just a few weeks when you start living together and you start developing habits together, you have these things that you do in your life that are on spoken jobs of yours and the council recalled him secret contracts there just these little things. Some of them are good, like it's good can wakes the kids up in the morning and then I drive them to school. I don't wanna wake up as early as her kim doesn't want to leave the house, so we never talked about that was just kind of how it worked out. Like should wake him up. I would take him to school night, she would make dinner. I would do the dishes, I would put the door

to bed. She would go to bed of a bit earlier and we ve never said any those things. They just always happen, though these secret contracts that we have in our marriage alive, The fights happen when you have secret contracts that you don't agree with, and you haven't gotten around to address sing. So we have one really big chapter about that when Kim went on strike because no one else family would change the toilet paper role, and that includes me, kids, wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it. She like took instagram and had this sort of guerrilla warfare thing where she told oliver followers and her family with you're off, knowing that I don't ever check instagram until I found out about a week later that been toasting me on sulphur media, about the fact that I never change trip toilet paper We took that to our counselor, expecting me to be a hundred percent wrong, and the christopher was like, Did you ever ask him to do it said? No, because I always have to do it. He goes You need to ask him to do it.

because mature people ask for what they want and she'd. Never once asked anyone to do it. You just got upset because she assume that was her job and that up all the time like I, my secret contract, is I'm supposed to be like the the mood keep her up or I'm supposed to be the golden retriever and a happy guy in our family, and sometimes I cannot do that so she had a pretty valuable conversation about household duties? a conversation about me always having to be the cheerleader and we kind of amended those secret contracts. Could they can lead to a lot of fights what's a good fight. What's the anatomy of a fight? Well, thought: do you think? So goes when Start with your feelings- and you say this is going on in my life and I feel like that. There needs to be a change The most important point for the next person to say There's two things you can really do that are really useful. One is: did you say I hear you

and the other thing- and this is a crazy to. I- had no idea how well it works. You kind of summarizing repeat what she just said. That does is it gets. You guys pointed in the same direction right so you're, both your You're. She sang something in your hearing what she said. Then you fight with how you feel now. This is always gonna. if this is not always going to work perfectly you're going to move into you always or you should, or you might even like to change the subject and move into. Let's say we're talking about not the toy paper and I'm are upset that I was out. the dishes, and we like left the original argument. Another two our council gave us is once that starts use, but we have a saying that we actually say out loud during the fight stay in the airport. It's a weird before right, but the airport is gross. you don't want to be there. You wanna get on a flight and go somewhere else, and so in arguments you frequently just like jet somewhere else in the middle and a flight, you ve gotta, stay on the argument at hand before you move on to the next one like one one find the time

you have to continue to take a temper where you are in the day, tired or you're dead. That's a really bad one or if your hungry, or of something really bad, when in your day, it's ok to say really having a rough time because of this. This in this can we This up later. So would fight you. Can go to bed angry that never go to bed angry saying we don't believe in that. You need to be in a good mental place when you're having this discussion with someone, but wait up Do it tough for me, because I hate it when people are mad at me and I all I do is satisfied, people apologize immediately, what I've learned is I've got to finish the fight and I've got to finish it in a stable environment it seems that with couples when there's thing, a disagreement to discuss. What turns a disagreement into a fight,

anger, that it's the angry the gets in the way of having a reasonable discussion about it, if we had that before and it's almost always because something else is taking us off that has not did you with what we're talking about so I think a couple of things that we do. We will do that thirty thousand foot view and we take up, we take we hover over ourselves and we say: ok you're angry, because you haven't eaten your anger because you haven't slept or you're angry at me, you're very, very angry at me because of something has been building up over a long period of time we can't have a good conversation about this when you're so angry. All you can do is shout you. Ve got a kind of take some time and the answer is: how long does it take? The answer is as long as it takes for you not: feeling that way and that's it least how we try to do it and by the way it's times taken a day or two for that.

to subside. But our belief, canonize belief, is that if you try to have a fight when you're, already angry you're, not gonna, get anywhere It seems a lot of times, and you hear people talk about this, sometimes that that when you fight the thing you're fighting about, isn't what you're really fighting about. It's really something else, and this is either the straw that broke the camel's back or it's just an opportunity to finally led out some steam, but what you're fighting about his really there's something else behind it My parents, in a skilled, nursing home a couple years ago, which anyone has done that knows that its pre brow we actually had a move him into an independent living facility, then into a skilled nursing home, then sell all of their prison. possessions or find a place for them they can be safe and

during. All of that, we were getting and fights about everything and we ve been neither of neither of us we're talking about the grief that the grief that I was going through and stress that Kim was going through, because even though these were people who meant a lot to her. These were not parents and she didn't really know the best way to deal with it or to intervene so I guess I guess my answer is at times. When you can't stop fighting it's because there's something under the surface that you haven't brought up when we brought that up and made everything a thousand percent I mean it still. Sucked happened with my parents, but at least we were able to. With each other about the better yeah. It seems that sometimes it's hard to figure that stuff out like what he is. The thing. What how do you figure out? What that big stress is because, even though its it's obvious in hindsight and when you say it, I imagine in the moment it was kind of heart. You knew you were upset and stressed out, but it was maybe hard pinpoint exactly what was causing it

Do you remember when you were a kid, and you would ask why, over and over again and your peril, but ultimately get to something very elemental like it so funny. Whenever I asked my my dad something why, over and over again it either go back to the big bang theory or god because it that he had to keep going back to the most basic thing You got to do that in a fight. You can ask why, and over again until you get to the heart of the matter, needs that you know it's not so much er, not just what you say, but it's the body language that how you say it to the tone in your voice and I have this image of you and your wife arguing in this very calm well, Oh here's, what I feel and do you like go at it, I mean that's, such a good point. sometimes, even when we're using the right words, I cures how I feel you can hear my voice right now. If I say here's how I feel feel really upset that

you're asking me to be the good guy all the time or if I say he's alive, I feel really upset that you're asking me to be the good guy all the time, but those are two very different things right, also- you couldn't see me, but my hands were like flying all over my face and I have and I stood up and both my chest out when I said the second one they're all these other the right there. although these are the things that are happening when you're shouting at someone. So that's that's just a whole other element that after pray about on top of the things that you are actually say,. yeah well. But it also seems that give if, if you want someone to know, you're upset it kind of makes sense to get loud and sound upset and you're saying that that's probably not the best thing to do if you're trying to resolve a problem, but it it seems like its human nature, that you know that that the actions have to match what you're saying if you're upset you sound upset me And we don't get an plus on this michael, we don't we really don't,

We still raise our voices with each other theirs. I mean there's passion right, everyone's got passion, but every time we do the fight do not go in the direction you wanted to it, just it because if you've ever done before. But if you raise your voice, she's gonna match her tone, but all that higher incidence thing you can do is go even higher an estimate first person raises their voice, a distorted devolves into everyone, raising their voice and again we do it. Sometimes we still do it. I'm just telling you went when you do it it doesn't. You dont progressed the way that you would probably want to. you know those couples, though, that that they seemed like they're, always fighting like they're, always yellow at each other and and and they don't see him a whole lot, For the where that's just their style of communicating it. Have you ever seen that in and know what I'm talking about?

I have seen it unnamed. So what do you you know? I mean? Does this not apply to them? I mean that they just let it all out and scream and yell in the in and they seem fine. Well, They, they probably haven't a good marriage rate, will Kim and I had a good marriage. We felt like we went from a good marriage to a very good marriage to a great marriage, because we tried all the stuff our counselor was telling us. I think the council would tell them the same thing like if you, if you kept a more tone you might progressed through member at an argument and argument is, as a beginning, a middle and in any might progressed through it, so that you wouldn't. have that same fight again. Having said that again, We went. Does their own thing it's by the way. It's good that you Fighting some I'd be more worried about someone who never fights than someone who fights the time to be honest with you, because the passions there but I would say they might wanna try having a conversation, were there not raising their voice and see if it if they get,

progress if they haven't gotten to before. isn't it interesting? How. So often I mean I can speak for myself and I know other people have said the same thing that fights when they happen or like there's nothing more important than this fight we're having right now and and in a week. You don't even remember what you are fighting about it just like it goes away at it wasn't that important, but at the time Nothing was more important, I have no didactic advice for this. Only to tell you that when we started putting this book together, we couldn't remember like ninety percent of the fights that we have like you're, absolutely right. They just they go away. Think what doesn't go away is whatever the underlying feelings were, that caused the fight Sometimes the fight has nothing to do with what those underlying feelings are Why does seem when you're, in a relationship for any length of time, just by the

nature of interaction, there's going to be miscommunication, there's going to be misunderstandings. People are gonna, take things not necessarily the way. You meant them it's bound to happen we had one knocked down, drag out fight where she wanted two she wanted me to write em a musical and I'd I've written a lotta music online. And I've enjoyed dad and I've taught. People about wainwright, a musical any musicals like twenty thousand times harder and she asked me that, while we were like in the middle of doing a thousand other things in our life is like, I think, we should do a musical, and I can help you with the script, That would be amazing and might spots to her was, do you think that's the best use of your time, and I was saying that, because she will, a thousand other projects that you doing and She got so magic out of a car,

When I had no idea what had just happened, I was at what did I just say an after a very long de escalation period, because she was passed I realized it. She was, madam you because I wasn't taking her seriously as a professional like entirely like as a partner it's like a major problem. If you work with someone- and it starts with us talking about a about whether, like weather, She was too busy to help me with a musical. the underlying issue was much much bigger. Am definitely learn how to not only trust. I believe in her inaction, respect affected job may not just be as important as mine is probably more important, but I don't have that I did before them, While anybody who has been in a relationship knows that in relationships aren't always easy, the fight probably the hardest part of being in a relationship. So it's interesting to listen to somebody. Who's really taken a deep dive into why we fight in and how to get better at it, my guest

then pen holderness, he is author of the book, everybody fights so why I'd get better at it and ITALY. His book in the shone out thanks and for being here. Thank you. I appreciate it we all know about the growling stomach. It's the reason you don't want to go to church without eating something first, because it seems to happen at exactly the wrong time what's going on when your stomach growls. Well, first of all, it's not your stomach. It's your intestines, mostly, as air passes through the intestines contract and expand and What makes the noise you here when you food moving through your system. It muscles that sound, which is why People tend to associated growling stomach with being hungry. But actually you're always making that sound. You just don't hear it very well after you've eaten. occasional stomach growling is completely normal. It happen.

to everyone. Just seems to be louder at church. That is something you should know. If you're, one of those people who listens to this pod cast but has yet to share it with some one else, what why's that please share this pipe can give him the link and let them here it is well. I might carruthers thanks for listening today to something you should know Welcome to talk about the ultimate smallville rewatch podcast below. We have a lot of fans. We have a lot of people that watch the show. We have a lot of people that still watch model they ship to the cons are glorious, they're, awesome, they're, just loyal is the word. I guess I'm proud of the show so come on man, it's novel because now everybody's like arrow and this- and these are all great- shows- I'm not knocking the shows. I'm just saying: do you remember us before the social media name may may catch up with season one or start season, two on youtube or wherever you listen?