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Today, on the three hundred episode of something you should know, I know it's a big deal. A lot of young women are doing something weird with their voice, and it's no good for anyone. Then the universal problem of derailing, our own best effort, it's called self sabotage appetite, is what we get in our own way, despite our best intentions. So perhaps we've made a golf r called. We say that it's really important to act, and yet we ended up hindering our own progress, and sometimes it makes people really confused plus why you need to go. Take a dip in the ocean as soon as possible and a fascinating look at how the universe really works. The great miracle going to find put it is that the universe is ordered it not just a heap of pale underneath all the tumult of the planet, earth or simple laws, a relatively small number of them all this today on the three hundredth episode of something you should know.

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something you should now fascinating, entail the world's top experts and practical advice. You can use your life today, something you should make her rather is high and welcoming to momentous events episode three hundred something you should know. We started pod cast Three years ago and my partner can williams- and I really true to create a podcast that we really thought people could think there He then to enjoy and tell their friends and b d, for it then. So many of the other podcast we started with high hopes, but you never know and it has exceeded our expectations. And it has done that precisely because of you and other people like you who listen sheriff their friends and it has a great ride and I hope will continue for a long long time. Thank you wasted.

today with something called vote fry. More and more adolescent girls and young women speak with this thing called vocal fry. It's been agreed will trend in a lot of girls to realise that this speech pattern can permanently damage their vocal cords, local fry is best described as the voice. He's descending into the lower register. As the speaker completes, the sentence: listen, two Kim car dash year, She does it all the time. In fact, I think all the car dashi in terms vocal fry some eggs. birds, consider vocal fry, vocal abuse and even a self inflicted disorder. local fry is somewhat of an epidemic, get starts typically in middle in high school, with a two thirds of college age, women speaking it once in the workforce. Women may want to consider dropping their vocal fry

university did a study and found that hiring managers were less likely to hire. Applicants king fry as they were passed- if, as less trustworthy incompetent- and some cases downright annoying go fry is a habit. They can, Can fry your vocal cords? causes muscle, strain swelling and potentially even lesions and other damage, and that is something you should know Has this ever happened to you? You have a big project and there's a deadline and instead of working on the project, as the deadline approaches you just a bunch of time on social media are watching television so you don't have enough time to really do the project well or for it ample Irena great relationship. But maybe you get a little flirtatious with someone at the office and the poor

nor finds out, and now there is a big problem. it's called self sabotage and we all do it to some degree. We too Pino our own best efforts for seemingly no apparent reason and the car Sequences can range from minor to death, stating to talk about. Why we do it then how to I could off Doktor Judy Ho Judy is a triple board. Certified unlicensed clinical and forensic psychologist. and she's author of the book stop self sabotage. I judy welcome to something you should know. I might get Thank you for having me on you, but so define self sabotage? For me, what is it you're talking about while some sabotaged simply defined, is when we get in our own way, despite our best intentions. So perhaps we ve made both ourselves? We say that it will be important to us, and yet we end up during our own progress and sometimes it's inexplicable and it makes people really confused.

When everybody's done it right every he's done it and truly, I think, have been universal phenomenon that is rooted in biology and evolution and- and so I think, all of us, even the best of us, are prone to this from time to time, and so what is the rudiments? What is the biological rules for the better Logical route of self sabotage really has to do with the two primary drives of all human beings, and the two primary drivers are in to survive at the species and I've individuals. We need to avoid threat and other things, we need to attain. Rewards that we can keep moving forward and the self sabotage switch get turned dine when over a course of different experts. And says, or personality traders way that we go about life we end up prior. teething, avoiding threat more so than a day reward and in our current day the threat is not so much a favour to tiger, but the threat is being rejected for a date being and down for a job, embarrassing yourself, public when you're speaking and

even emotional bread feel the same way who are bodies as physical brats when I think of self sabotage. I think of a student, for example, who has arrived important test to take and who doesn't, study and wait till last minute and doesn't study enough, and then it gets a lousy great on the test and wonder well, why would you do that the lulli programme and even at one of the most vivid example, they think of self babbit odds, and I think it will tell him felt different thing they might say. Well, I need all of that energy and stress that in the end they can perform the best but I billowy and obviously people don't performed the best of their ability when their crunch for time might that, especially at projects and exams get more complicated. Do you think that when people are doing this when their sabotaging their own best efforts. They know it or they only see it later,

well, I think it's a mixture of some people know it in the moment and there doing it anyway, so there feeling really bad about themselves out there doing it and other people don't the it until later, and in fact some people won't see it until days later, maybe and all of a sudden no realized well. Why do they do that, and I think the problem for most people, whether you realise that in the moment, and do it anyway or realise that a little bit after is usually they don't find the way out. So Bilbil said, though even say I sabotage myself, though, use that language, but then there's no practical, tip, to follow up? How do you change their behaviour, and why begin passionate about this topic and, in my view, urgent in the work that is done when my patient, that just noticed that he will do that. At the time, and then they kind of just brush it off, and then they do it again. So it becomes this pattern that overall will erode on their self esteem and their ability to believe in themselves to do things. So how do you make sure you don't do it again

while the bird that bit to understand where it comes from, and so I came up with an acronym called life to help people remember these common factors a bit easier. So I believe that there are four common reasons why people felt sabotage and some people may have just one of these reasons. Some people may have the four, but in general everybody has at least one and the first one low or shaky self esteem. So if you ve had differ if he's believing yourself, and it doesn't have to be pervasive. You know people have different realms of self esteem. So may if you have really good self esteem when it comes to your athletic abilities, but not so much when it comes to your career and so whatever area of life that you're having difficulties with your self esteem and that's where you're apt to self sabotage the most? So that's the first factor, I stand for internal. I believe that this is the second factor in this story that we ve been told them, childhood watching parents? Perhaps if our parents were nervous nellie's, you start to adopt that idea. For yourself as an adult always looked before you,

You don't try anything that you haven't tried before and overtime also arose on our ability to make positive change, as it were european known. So this is a very common thing to human beings. We dont white, the unknown. Clearly, we want to be able to predict how our life Gonna go and what's gonna happen to us data day. But if that's the european is to pervasive. Then it becomes an help, because then you'll never step outside your comfort zone and the last one is easy for assessing need for control so excessive need for control comes into play for a lot of people who would define themselves with perfection. Is. really over achievers taipei people. They don't want to do anything that isn't within them control and oftentimes. If you have a big old you're, not going to be the only person, that's involved in achieving that goal, and so just even that sense of not being able to have a sure footing will stop people who generally are great I'm going after things.

I always thought that people self sabotage themselves, because perhaps they really dont want when it is their aiming for that that that so Is they screw it up and go lousy? I can't that's their bizarre. I think that the great point and light- that's very, very common too, and I I think a big part of this is that as we make these goals and are not even our goals in all their goals of our friends or both our family? Members are things that other we'll put on bucket list so that you think you should too- and I think this is part of you know. All of these motivation had a lot of help, improve men, projects and books, we talk all the time about achieving golden. I understand now, but at the same time, at these goals are now it in your values, the things that you, We find that your license And for what you want to be remembered for there not rooted in values? First, I believe people do self doubt hard because, like you said, maybe

not even what they want and when he looked down the line or like well, if I achieved this goal, Be living a life, that's not even authentic to me or maybe a life, I don't really want to live, and so then they don't actually pursue those things in a very sad pathway. Could be fear like it. If, if I do really well on this job interview- and I get the job my life will change, and maybe I don't really wanted to change absolutely. This idea of fear of changes huge for human beings overall and may be for certain individual than I think. Sometimes people looked too many steps ahead. You know they think over what they achieve this goal, but I had to do this. Nothing then the next thing than the next thing then it'll never end. I hear them oftentimes with career pursued. I hear this often also with actually help habits like, for example, when what he trying to lose weight than they think will one day achieve that way than I have to keep it up and for my entire life- I'm gonna have to eat healthy and goodbye to these food that it can never again which, by the way the roman holiday you should

some kind of moderation, but not just cut things out completely, but I think when people look down the line too much and they see the maintenance that's involved- maybe they don't do it and you know that particular fear of change. can really come into play when you think too far down and think about all the negative consequences. The now comes I could be associated with reaching herbal wilson, this thing you said that it tends to happen with things where you you, perhaps have not much confidence in right right. Absolutely in that common for people to second guess themselves. I think right now a lot of important by this idea of impostor syndrome ray, and I think they relate the little bit too that you know. Even if you ve done a lot of things you you you're back. You back actually work for it. Sometimes you still don't feel fully competent. Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. I mean just in my own life and knowing people that I know that that yeah there's that sense of I I really don't deserve this. I don't qualify for this, I I'll. Never.

I'll never do well at it. So why bother absolutely, and I think when I talk to people who feel this way, it's interesting b, they don't actually tell everybody that that's how bitter feeling right they kind of project this person that has confidence that it's full of life, and can do anything that they want and then their inner thought or so negative, and I talk about this alive with the people I've worked with, which is it so crazy? How sometimes the negative thought We tell ourselves, we would never see them out loud to another human being you're, not even a therapist it because there's no mean in debt. the under currents of our every day. If these negative thoughts a pervasive in their repeated your brain thoughts or ignore it, because it thinks out of this information. I noticed ready but simply got your brain ignored. Consciously doesn't mean that it's not wreaking havoc in other ways, and I think that's what leaves people felt sabotaging sometimes without knowing it.

I am speaking with doktor Judy HO, she is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic psychologist and author of the book stop of sabotage, suppose owed is sponsored by better help an his thoughts seems like always happen at exactly the worst time when you're trying to go to sleep or when you're busy at worker or you're spending time with your family you know what really helps with those anxious thoughts. Walking through them with a licence therapist through better help. There a b and better help gives you place to get out of those negative thought cycle? So you can find some mental and emotional peace, you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help. A try it's all done online. You use falada questionnaire, get matched with a licence. Therapist convenient, flexible and works on your schedule.

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start smarter with: u s? Cellular visit? U s cellular dot com, slash built for us to find out more strictly apply visit? U s cellular dot com for terms, so Judy, do you think, there's a difference between, and I guess this would apply to something like weight loss, there's a difference between so the tajik yourself and just giving into momentary temptation. It's not like you're trying to derail, your whole diet, but you know that don't look sick! It just looks so good that that you, you give into temptation, but there's, no, deep, seated sabotage going on what I can be a combination of different things and when there is what we call a week and it just means that you were possibly very mindless about it. So it mean Perhaps you can the flash of acknowledgement that this might not be a good thing to do, and It did it anyway and instead of sort being my

full of that moment in saying: why have a craving for this now, for example, but it'll pass it'll pass? If I just wait a few minutes, let me just do something distract myself and come back and research shows that fifteen to twenty this is often enough for you to actually gauge argued, actually truly hungry. Or do you actually really want this, or are you just doing it because of emotional eating or boredom? And so after that they take twenty minute people tend to make better decisions, but because and for the moment then they have through this lapse in judgment. But I absolutely Think that will power is a big deal, and so research also shows, for example, that people tend to now unhelpfully towards the end of the night, maybe after them drinking a little bit and it all they fund, because willpower is not a infinite resource, is a finite resource. it's like when you exercise your body, eventually you're going to have to rest, your body, you're gonna, have to take a break, while willpower does erode over the course of the day, especially if you've had a lot of different decisions that you've had to make in the day if you've had other emotional or academic or career stresses.

By the end of the day it much harder to say no. So knowing that you are predisposed to doing this. What's the step, one, two and three too When you see yourself star, to sabotage or your efforts were what what do you do while the first step is to recognise which of those life actors apply. You get a truly important to know those undercurrents of what really leading me to do this time and time again, To that, I think it's time you know the next step is really to delve into your thought patterns. You know why we have these automatic thoughts that kind of run on autopilot and a lot of times are very negative, and there are things that reinforce one or more of those life factors. So we need to sort of take those thoughts out into the light, examined them and understand whether or not they actually even applying the situations that might we hold onto negative thought from an earlier experience. We have had in life and it doesn't even apply now end

lee about how is the thought really operating and do we need to somebody change. The thought, if you can, if you can think about the thought it. This is not a pretty If not, how do I have a more productive one, or it's really about maybe letting that thought just be a thought, and I think this is sort of a newer school of psychology that had more attention lately, which is based on acceptance and commitment therapy, and this school of thought. It's all about you know. Sometimes I can change our negative thought in the moment, but we can change our relationship to them and just but we have a negative thought does not mean we have to act on it. It does not mean it's true, and it does not mean that it has to have any kind of formidable effect on our emotions and our behaviors. And if you can let go of that and just think of your thoughts as mental advances at all. They are there. Not who you are there not party your personality, then we can deal with them easier. We can come to ignore them.

let them run in in the background, without letting it actually affect our decisions that end up leading to south sabotage. That seems hard to do that. That seems really hard to do too to have that view have that belief. It. Those negative thoughts really are, but I had Just because I mean at human beings, languages are so important to us is important to our development is important in our communication and how we relate to one another, and social relations are just paramount for human beings. Recent it has shown that if we don't have good social relationships, we can actually die earlier. We can actually have heart disease and other these physical manifestation of not being able to communicate well, but are reliance on language really is also at some points very artificial, and so I think some of the more practical ways to start making this shift because, as you said, it is very hard is too very simply one technique Are you. The lot is to talk about this as labeling a thought

if you have a negative thought like I'll, never be able to lose weight, adding to some more little phrase in front of it. I'm having the thought that I'm never going to be able to lose weight and does notice how the power get. Taken out a little bit about original thought because your labeling it as a thought and your creating even a physical distance between you and that original thought, can wreak havoc on your healthy habits. I like that that's a great idea, because he, as you say it it kind of poles the power away from the thought and makes it just a thought which is just a thought Absolutely and some are even have my client in a right it on a piece of paper in seville the negative thought first and then I'll ask them to write to the left that thought, I'm having the boy And then I haven't stand up and say: look at the paper look at you and your already farther from the thought than you when you obviously started, because now you have this bridge here this little phrase, and so I tried to make up physical connection because sometimes we think of thought you know again,

so in tangible, their and our head. They can go on and on forever and when you put it on the page, it feels like something not you can if you- and I try to remind people that anything- that's physical in space has finite orders right, even the grand canyon start and end somewhere. And so do you They don't have to go on for ever and ever and wreak to your emotional and behavioral life in your work with people. Where do you find self to sabotage showing up in life. What are they situations that such a good question. So I find for a lot of success. Will people people who had their careers together, people who have maybe even their help together, their exercise, the other that they tend to sell. Because the most in intimate romantic relationships, and I think it

for that reason there are the least controllable and are the most vulnerable. So if anybody's had any kind of emotional trauma of any sort or has been rejected in a romantic relations of somewhere in life, that could be an easy slip for them. You know it's easy just to tell him felt in these and other things they want, and so they just never into appears relationship, or they tell himself. I do appears relationship. How can I can't get one yet they keep choosing these partners that either don't challenge them or bore them or partner that unfortunately, sometimes might get into abusive types of behaviour. including emotional and physical abuse. So I think that's one very common area, but I think a couple of other ones are procrastination, diet, her and certainly pushing forward in their career, I find a lot of really well meaning people who settling the job and never try to aim any higher, and they just watch other people get promoted over them and watch other people have better jobs, and they too so? The narrative that well a job the job. So you don't really happen,

like what you do and as you know, a job is a job, and sometimes you're gonna have days you don't love what you do, but you should absolutely at least seventy to eighty per cent of the time. Love what you do, because you spend so much time in your life doing it. What about accountability would seem to me that if, if somebody else's kind of keeping their, I knew that you are less likely to fall victim to this. Yet so lightly, and I think this is why I want to take them, the thought of the shadow. They think that people were embarrassed by it and they hide from it and maybe there's a certain level of stigma there, especially if somebody I don't a little bit living this impostors syndrome. They don't want to talk about it, but if you keep it all to yourself, it much easier to keep doing negative, behaviors and sink into those patterns and keep feeling ashamed, though, if you can tell at least one other person have accountability, buddy be able to discuss this. Lee and again recognise its universal, nothing wrong with you, if you're prone to falling into it from time to time that

Hopefully I will help because the more we can talk about it openly and the more we can bring it to the surface the more it's going to feel like a huge sense of cognitive dissonance when you do something against your best interests right. So human beings are very much driven by cognitive dissonance. We don't want it. You know that the very uncomfortable placed for us if we feel like Don't align or parts and behaviors dona line, so I give this example. My friends who used to be a chain smoker, but then he started working in tobacco research and he quit eventually because it was just too much for him to hold that dissonance up. I'm doing tobacco research and yet I smoke a pack a day, and so with that idea, When you can talk to people about it when you you're living this outward life of going towards it, golden than you trip up, then that much harder for mine to handle your minded, doesn't want it. So it's easier than to keep your mind and your behaviors on track with one another. It is

First, it is interesting to me anyway, how we we all- and you ve, confirmed that we all fall victim to this it at some point in life. It it serves us poor and yet it is so common. It is just that everybody does it everybody, and I think you know august, we will have to over pathologies the problem and that big part of what I trying to do when I talk to people about it, it's hey the best of us, do it and by the way, you're fighting biology and evolution. Here, though, you're not gonna win the battle, we're all gonna do with some time, but if it becomes the pattern of bothers you- and you know it's getting in your way consistently. Then it's really trying to do the about it and the good news is there are things we can do about it. So, aside from changing your thoughts, understanding the life actors is also about replacing your honor, he behaviors with healthy behaviour. So this idea of replacement behaviors comes from ro management, theory and psychology, and it's all about substituting what we call

I'm kidding behaviour in place of a bad habit. So when we talk about unhealthy snacking, that's a very common example of that. What is something that you can do when you get the urge to snacking? You know you're, not hungry. You know that you're nourished, and you know that you can do it. You know one of them. Get in the way of you actually having that's that. Sometimes people will say things like well I'll watch, t v, I'm like nope, that's not a competing behavior, because that's the time when most people snack. So what you have to do is something I can actually get in the way of you picking up a snack, though, whether that taking a quick walk around the block. Going on a really quick walk with your dog or is cleaning up a small area of your room. You know it's something that actually gets in the way of you also being able to eat. At the same time, it's good to know that the united states, Not just me such a you, it's everybody everybody engages in self sabotage,

to some degree or another, and in its good to know too that there are things you can do to to fight it. If that becomes a problem. Actor judy who has been my guess: she's, a triple board certified and licence clinical and forensic psychologist and the name of her book is stop self sabotage. You'll find a link to her book at amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Judy absolutely you again for having me on, might really great I imagine you have, as I have done, a looked up into the night sky and wondered: what's it all about the stars, the universe at all, look so chaotic, but is it? Is it hey artic or is there some order, some rime and reason to all in the universe that we see an if is order to at all. What does that mean here to accede perhaps as good as anyone is graham far mellow

graham is a senior research fellow at the science museum in london and adjunct professor of physics at north. Eastern university in Boston, and he, author of a book called the universe, speaks in numbers. How modern math reveals natures, deepest secrets? hi, graham thanks for coming on, and and why don't you start by explaining what you mean by the universe speaks in numbers? What does that mean? it sure is speaking to us in stereo. What I mean by that is that everybody knows pretty much that we learn about nature from the results of experiments. Making observations. That's that's the way we learned about how nature works, but we also learn about natures order, the fundamental order at the heart of nature from mathematics. Emil einstein was the personal all this extremely clearly.

pointed out three years before he pathways with nineteen. Fifty two that the great miracle is he, that. All the eternal mystery is that there is underlying order at the heart of nature. Now, That order that enables us to do. Science is because the unit, he's order that we can study it and we to hand a system that enables us to, Stammered oda on vat system is mathematics, so the nature of that order that you just spoke of what does it mean that the universe has an order, the first time that this was really set out at will? tremendous clarity with Isaac newton who, in eight sixteen eighty seven poverty is great, but perhaps the greatest book ever published in what we now call science when he set out the first system, are studying nature in a mathematical way and at the heart of that was the formula that gives the group.

patients will force between two matters. This call be meetings inverse square law as a complicated sounding thing, but he thought he very simple. It's as if you have to masses, then there is a simple mathematical formulae. You can write on the palm of your hand. That tells you what the forces the ground he force between those those matters and that formula describes everything from apple falling from a tree in his garden a pencil falling from your hand until the floor. Roy through to the moon going around the earth the planet going round the sun, and the whole shape of the cosmos. That was one of the great, unifying insights in the history of science, and it shows that there is an underlying order that you can summarised in terms of a simple mathematical formula And so what is that formula hope it's at the gravitational

You multiply the two matters you divided by the square of the distance. That's it that's the formula, to in every thought. Every basic science textbook right, and that gives explore a mathematical expression to the the order that we see in around was in terms of the gravitational false. Is there any sense as to what that for me is explaining what that why, formula work so well, and why these everything has this relationship to everything else? Do we need looked at it like the that you know that the towering a mind begin this his job with was not weeks lane where the origin of these things, but to describe as he would put it god's creation That's what he saw. He saw himself as a natural philosopher whose job is to understand god, creation of the universe and by that form,

let that I just described there that enabled him to describe everything from motion on the planet earth through to the? the emotion of satellites in outer space, the motion of the moon, the tides and and and what have you he couldn't explain why there is that attraction, but he nonetheless is correct but wrote down a formula that Linked together all those observations and that that expats expression of a basic order at the heart of the universe, he's been around since newton yeah, then isn't this all pretty much in stone, and we all agree- and now we can get on with our lives- are not on all because at gravities only one of several forces that are at the heart of nature, I mean one that new knew about, but he did not know. The mathematical risks, Chernobyl is electricity and magnetism. Now that is responsible to molly for the offences or the human senses, and we would wish

Pick it up when we get our clothes out of the dry cleaner, we get the electric shot. We we we sense, the electrical force inaction there. The electrical fault holds together the particles inside atoms, but we didn't know what formulae describe those forces electrical and magnetic forces. The correct theory, mathematical theory of that was discovered in the eighteen sixties, by the great What does she think of James clerk Maxwell and that again was one of the really great human achievements of the nineteenth century. The american the petition said it was the great achievement of the nineteenth century, because so much of our modern world is based on electricity and magnetism from our our cell. Phones in our lighting systems and communication systems are based on electricity and magnetism. Basically, and it was max well, who discovered a few equations that disputes I've only all the phenomena of electricity and magnetism again. What that does, is it gives a mathematical expression to the basic order, heart of the universe.

and so why is this important? Why oh This seems like textbook stuff, that's been in the textbooks for a long time. So why are we talking about it today and why should I care at must be clear that it is important, because it's the miracle that makes comprehension of the universal possible at exactly what einstein said, he's job the super The task of the physicist as einstein put it is to understand, find the most basic laws from which we can deduce why why the universe is the way it is that's what the job of the physicist is fundamental it's the fine those laws into and and to give expression to that older and to make predictions that enable that technology and make her arms around the standing of the universe around us clear. So, u turn In the beginning of this conversation about people who experiment to try to figure out why the world works. The way works

what are these experimenters experimenting? What is it What is it they do? One experiment is due east The phenomena in the universe rightly do experiments on the that the world around us. Now they measure things mass they measure spade a measure that the forces and what have you now that on its own, their identification to phenomena or in nature. You know that the union of the bases of new particles and new phenomena that have never been seen by human beings before that's one thing but, as as einstein, stressed So often what we really need is to understand the pattern of between those observations, while they all part of one seamless hole and that's what the fund. Central aim of a physicist is to give, unified description of the whole of nature at a fundamental level. It will be here

a simple set of formulae or which everything around us is based and thy the the what we really any for is a mathematical set of laws that are in perfect agreement with experiment. That's what we were often And are we anywhere close? Well, we've done fantastically with me newton could come back today and see where we were pretty confident. He be utterly astonished thought he'd say that we have these laws of electricity and magnetism, but also atom which were a matter of controversy at that time, we normally no they exist. We know the detail, mathematical laws that govern the at the inner structure of atoms, even better matt, we have a system now in the backyard of everybody's called strings. Harry whereby we can understand all those forces are under one framework now that he's a tremendously exciting intellectual achieve it certainly not win that without them,

we did have a lot of work to do to understand that theory and to check it thoroughly against experiment. But that would be seen by somewhat newton if he wishes to walking and look at the state of five now, he would be astonished at what has been achieved by scientists in the few happen in three hundred odd years, since he published his great work, so one thing- I guess I don't really understand- is how could Newton wade way back when he was alive coming up with this, for you can't just make up a formula you had we ran you can that's exactly the magic of the great creative find is a verdict of the great creative businesses, basically put put simply, they have to guess the right formula that fits nature. That's the point

and he and he actually, he wasn't the only person to come up with that. For me, he applied it brilliantly to explain the motion of the planets around the sun that the tides goodness knows what else he he so he used that formula brilliantly, but what people after that did was they actually guessed the right formula and it's a very, very difficult thing to do. That's why we celebrate and write. These are, in my view, people who have the brilliance to actually come up. with a brand new law of nature and the famous one in the past century was Albert Einstein and in nineteen fifteen he came up with a new law of gravity, the city, the einstein's laura gravity, which is why we now believe is the best account all of the gravitational force. And ended in cosmology. That, though, the way in which the universe develops in the way it is now he came that in his head it took him about eight years to do I

incredibly hard work working with mathematics and, mental result to guess the right, mathematical formula, which again, I might say you can write on the palm of your hand, quite incredible achievement. Those equations that explain the order of the universe that you ve described, though, that they explain some of the order, but There's a lot about the order of the universe. We don't know right now, they funds within the amazing thing about science is the more we understand the more we know the more we realized. We don't know. As I said, have a candidate theory. Now of all the interactions can be put under one roof, so to speak under the umbrella of one framework which he called at string theory, but that is certainly not a final therewith right working with trying to understand it, but the but the great prizes to have a unit. I'd understanding of all those fundamental forces,

thousand also the smartest people alive. A working on that subject now and it's an extremely challenging thing to do, and the it is the most natural place to test that theory. the extremely high energies right at the beginning of the universe. From the very very difficult to access. What What are some of the things are one of the things: that's stumping science. What what is the one or two things that like a wish, we could figure this out, but no out yeah, that's it. That's great question am a classic one, absolutely classic one good said black holes now, being These are objects, if you can call it that cosmic objects for which so dense with matter that light and matter can't escape from it, believes that, with the initial conception now

These things are exotic meat. They made the news this year because there was the first image of a black hole published. We made the front pages, all the newspapers and websites, and what have you right now? The path which many people have worked on that subject. The first thing to say is the existence of those objects. emerges from einstein's theory of gravity now that, in a sense, is quite remarkable. Out of that, mathematical theory comes the prediction that those objects exist and sure enough. We see them in outer space that I submit to you is a is a miracle almost all, if not a miracle, absolutely amazing right now, we still don't understand exactly what happens when is swallowed up by a black hole, and the reason is that find his find it not physicists on an extremely difficult to combine our studies of gravity, which are of a

best symbolized by bonds, theory and the laws are called quantum mechanics which describe matter at the smallest level. This is item by item. We but when you're talking about the tiniest particles of the we're all made up of now, black holes is the best plight, the cleanest place, to test the conflict between quantum mechanics and and einstein. Syria gravity it is as one physicist alone. I corridor he douglas damp and put it brilliantly. It's the ground, zero of the war between gravity and quantum mechanics and other. Those two areas are very, very difficult to get to reconcile and its in black holes that we think we will. We will understand how to do it, but it's not. the stood yet and rich people right now. Like other string theory conference in brussels are still working on this problem, has taken years of work to make progress on, but still not on good. I remember when that photos

of the black hole showed up- and I remember in in my high school physics hearing that light canvas a black hole? So how could we possibly see it yeah? Well, that's that's! That's very good question and indeed that is what people fought for many years, but can look at the environment around the black hole right and you can see evidence that matter in its locality, so to speak, and that's what those experiment is quite brilliantly did that he and it was the first time and say something here. That shows how remarkable out human understanding it is on. This physicists have been exploring black holes now for for many many years the modern understand it began in nineteen thirty, nine, the subject really took off in the sixtys and seventys we stephen hawking one of what one of the plan is now, though black holes were being studied in

side theoreticians heads even before astronomers have seen them both You said we only saw offers clean image for it earlier this year and yet finishes We are able to use mathematical equations to study. What is in in the in the environment of a black hole. So it demonstrates the enormous power of mathematics and of our basic theories of nature. I understand that the all of these theories and formulas help to explain the universe, but what do we really know what the universe is, and I mean that seems like so much of it? We don't know. So how can you possibly explain what you don't know what we know It is their entered through our senses and and is the result of observation- is that we make on it. The basic job of the philosophical assistance is that I am not politically philosophical people. What they want to do is to say to say that with our job is to it,

playing all the data that are taken on experiments on the universe. Every observation that astronomer or finish this makes it is the fit, is his job to between two explain those observations in terms of mathematical formulae and because they ten the valley, millions of people, doing these observations on the only out a Gallop in constellations and on here on planet earth in every debauchery would come out with millions of papers that tell us in detail about what is going on in in the universe, with very increasingly accurate experiments and it's the job of the rotation to use mathematical laws to explain those things to understand. Them goes back to that point about the order that, at the great miracle, that, as I put it, is that the universe is all

It's not just a heap of chaos. You know underneath all the tumult of the planet, earth and and the the all the violence of quasar explosions or what have you or simple laws of relativity. Mobile number of them, and it seems amazing to me that that, through the assemblies of atoms that human beings are the weakened divine, I understand that order in simple language of mathematics What I find this so interesting, and I wish I had more of a science in math brain that I do. Those were not my my best subjects in school. This is really really interesting and really helps explain. The universe Grandfather mellow has been my guest he's a senior research fellow at the science museum in london and agile. Professor of physics, it northeastern university in Boston is but called the universe speaks in numbers. How modern math reveals natures deepest secrets, and you will find a link to his book at amazon in the show notes thanks

much graham project you time. I appreciate your to. Thank you so much if you would like to have better skin, improve your sex drive and live longer, head to. The ocean swimming in seawater. Can do all of that and more If you don't have an ocean handy river and lakes swimming have similar benefits, Studies have found that those who swimmin, cool or cold bodies of water have been or bodies because of it cool. immersion releases adrenaline, it improves your circulation. It gives the immune system a boost, if cool water is salty. It's like a sailing rents for your body. Can do wonders for your skin and sinuses. Mineral rich seawater has healing properties that can relief symptoms of arthritis, psoriasis and even depression, and is something you should know if you like.

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