Ladies and gentlemen on this week's episode of the rise together. Podcast. We are going to push into a hard conversation about race. It is an impossibly difficult thing at times to fully get our arms around what's happening, how we got here, what systems and power structures exist to afford it and we're going to push into it because of one it being important and to it being the thing that is necessary for us to create the kind of progress and activism inside of anti racism to actually afford a path forward. We are so fortunate, I'm so grateful that we have a guest today, who is an expert inside of this field? Dr Ed, Baron is a diversity and leadership consultants. He is an executive coach, he's an accomplished speaker, he's got

thirty plus years of having developed as expertise in small nonprofits in large multinational corporations, he is been working inside of the diversity and leadership space for a very, very long time and is well known for conducting content specific workshops dealing with all aspects of this conversation of a workshop that, in fact, he's given not once but twice to the people on our team. He's the chair of the Department of leadership and organizational psychology at issues, the Pacific University and his teaching specialities, include systems and strategic planning for leaders, organizational implications of diversity and leaders as agent of change He is a good man. He is a smart man and he happens to be a friend of mine and our family. He also, notably, is the Father to Brittany Beans, Baron for anyone who is familiar with her off

this and the way that she has been such an amazing contributor inside of our space in this community on the rise stage and beyond without further ado, please welcome Dr Ed Baron what would the world look like if we all pushed ourselves to have candid conversations with people who didn't look like us? Think, like us, If, like us, I'm Dave Hollis and I'm on a mission to learn more about this world. By meeting more of the people who live here, You may not always agree with everything you here, but I care. You'll come away more informed on topics. You might never have thought to seek out before this isn't just a podcast. It's a community and when we raise each other up, we all rise,

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dr Ed bear to the rise together podcast. This is going to be a fantastic and timely conversation. I could not think of they're human being on this planet, to wade into a conversation around race and where we find ourselves and how we got here. So thank you ad for being here. I appreciate it so so much men, the pleasures mine, I'm excited to connect and talk about the things that are most important men, especially timely. Well, you have been doing this work for quite a long time as much as man. There is more relevance and importance to the kind of conversations we will have today and that you are having in real time with other humans. You've been doing it for a long time.

can you tell me a little bit of how you got started inside of this space, of provoking these very important and hard conversations, and why so important to you yeah. Well, the evolution actually started, probably about thirty years, gonna, say evolution, because a conversations evolve obviously would context spit way back to my early years as engineer in the aerospace industry working to make sure that contracts were the ability to complete compete on rags by minority owned businesses and women owned businesses was part of my charter and and as early as many of you can give it a small minority owned company a contract, and have the wherewithal to perform it and before you know it, the reputation fails and then, the contracts we to work on developing those companies

and then in the religious nonprofit space working on reconciliation for probably a decade or more, and in my current capacity doing this turns of cost. and coaching around what I like to call anti racism. But you know David all, started my anticipated this question. Obviously I was thinking that for me, if started as a kid on April, fifth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight, so that date might sound vaguely familiar. It was the day after Dr Martin Luther king was assassinated. He was assassinated at about six p, DOT M West Coast time and now. The new cycle wasn't twenty four hours back in those days. So by the time my family found out about it, it was a next day. I'd, never experience from much grief and pain and her and broken nest.

Didn't understand. Why? Because I wasn't familiar with Dr King, but needless to say, I became familiar with Doktor king, why he was assassinated, and that was really the sort of the impetus and inspiration for me to start exploring what it meant to be black in America the ten year old boy and that's really with a journey, started a passionate about it literally ever since yeah and and at church actually is this time when rachel- and I were in our adoption process, thinking that at the time we would be adopting from Ethiopia and the prospect of having a child of color come into our family. Had us searching out unintentionally, multi cultural church to start actually doing life with community with people who had a different life. Experience that we might by pushing into and sitting next to becoming friends with people who maybe saw the world through a different lands or had a different set of experiences, could inform a little of what we

to also be considerate of, as we were thinking at the time that we be raising a daughter of color and, as we sat inside of that multicultural setting at first I'm gonna be honest. It didn't feel wildly different than most church settings. It was just good people coming together to worship, and then we we joined the church in two thousand and thirteen and two thousand and fourteen Eric Garner Michael Brown to be arise, write these names it becoming part of the new cycle in shooting that all of a sudden changed the kind of conversation that we were having with our friends of color, who were spirit

It's seeing and processing the news in a way that was totally different from what had historically been our normal experience and ah- and I'm curious, because I mean part of the conceit of wanting to do this podcast and bring people in who may have had a different life experiences the man the blessing that has come in some of the empathy and the you know, understanding us experience changing the way that you might also experience things. How much you know, how much do you give to or how, how big a deal it has community and just doing life with not. You know, following someone on social, but like actively participating in up close hard asking questions. Sometimes we might might have to start with my apologies for probably not getting this the right of. How important is that an appealing, especially inside a times like these now you're

you're right on David to given the background too, and talking about this community of people that came together under a common purpose what you're expressing in my opinion, is the most important aspect of having expected movement and even effective conversation on the enterprise level and ass, the fertile ground and relationship with with, without that we cannot reduce these kind of back and forth. Zero sum game right on my modem and get my point across in your motivated get your point across, but in the context of relationship in a context of community in his room for air that rule for growth is Rupert. Mission has room for vulnerable. They read his room, the press. You know some of that sum that the toughest fights I I was with my younger brother right, we're only two years apart when you're in school, but kind of at the end of the day. I knew that, no matter how hard we punch each other or how vigorously Russell would be there the next day cause he loved me right, and so, even if the

in different agree with you that not much importance is having a space to be heard, and so are we. continue to water, the ground of relationship kind of starting there in those people that are in your sphere. David, not worried about changing. people that are way out there, which kind of social media target right. We bow off these. These unreceptive hearts that are already closed off, trying to convince them with a distant missive, The fact of the matter is our people right around us that we need to be connecting with a laugh, which a lot of whom, I should say, are different than us. I mean one of things that has been such a wild blessing for our friendship and the relationship we have with your daughter, Brittany, beans there and who I think many people in the community are probably familiar with his the race with which you have afforded us to press.

two conversations that are inevitably uncomfortable, that I've made some progress on this journey, and I can still hold that. I am going to forever for the rest of my life being a journey to get closer to understanding it in a way that a younger version of myself may have thought. I understood what it means to grow up as such someone of color what race has meant historically and the systems that exist inside of it for anyone who is listening. If you a dentist by as this

being a hard conversation or uncomfortable kind of thing. Ok, I think that's a just kind of in normal reality inside us, something that historically has been harder for any of us to totally get our hands around, but finding people inside of your actual life that can afford you an audience for your questions, man. It has been such a beautiful, beautiful thing and we ve just now subsequently, as part of a hollow company done the three days of work just this last month and

I can tell you the people on the team who were able to experience it super super powerful, really really hard, but that we were able to step into and have this conversation man. It was just such a gift. I do want to walk through a little of what we are through as a team cause. I think it's important for people to appreciate some of how you have to try and navigate this big huge conversation in pieces. I'm interested just to kind of understand how you've approached having these hard conversations and why you think it's so hard to talk about race in the first place. Yeah then upgrade, but they, let me start by saying a couple of things. One is let's: let's try for our sakes and the audience sake to sort of separate, something that's hard or difficult from something. That's wrong or bad, so hard difficult doesn't mean wrong bad. It just mean that there's a

a lack of familiarity with something that makes it challenging right in this race is not the only thing that's hard to understand, and most of us, maybe not most of us. I struggle with math in in Highschool, because it was difficult to write, did make it wrong. Just something that I wasn't familiar with in my context. So let's separate that and then I want to acknowledge something too. Could you talk? You know you're talking Aladdin and thank you many of your your blessing by the talking about the the history of our relationships as families, the one that you and your family did without this certainly saying the words. But this was the paucity of your life was helped me understand and still wants. Someone invites understanding before being understood. It feels just like It feels like an invitation. I'm going now move forward to you so just

the that and that's a little bit of a tip for those listening to the seek to understand before being understood and the art are our goal for the training. Almost sounds understated right to set you on a path of continued self education, as I would shouldn't the goal. I'm understanding racism, wanna one be understanding racism, one wonders one, or should I be anti racist or shouldn't be enough. Ultimately, I think what we want to spark is this sort of aha moment where hey, I can become more comfortable. If you will, with these conversations The more that I learn the mother not learn about the history, the contextual history in the United States of America. The more I learn about longevity of some of these issues, and so, even though hear about an Eric Garner if I'm not african,

american here but you're a goner and maybe it's a blip in a new cycle that goes away in twenty four hours before for me as an african and african american male, I'm harkening back to Emmett till in the nineteen fifties, and so it feels I just it. It feels like another murder, another lynching, but without that historical context I really can't connect that to anything that significant. It feels like. Well, that's just another murder right and not to trivialize that, but it's difficult to talk about, because most of us lack the historical context and understanding that make these conversations relevant, and so that's why we selected the overall goal of understanding racism. One hundred one: to inspire the attendee to inspire the participant to continue. Earning and, and that would mean to God, you know we're going to get to the end right, developing your antiracist plant.

and in there there's a section for your education, your your continued attrition reading it and talking with others and and watching videos and movies and understanding yeah. What interesting is anyone who's had any formal education. Anyone who considers himself you know smart in some kind of way, you may believe that they have a pretty good handle on all the things that have happened that have led to the state of the world and the situation that we find ourselves inside of. But the first day of work was really looking backward at how we got here, and I remember on that first day, you said you can't effectively interpret content without setting a

We context and if you're operating right. If you are someone who believes themselves to understand all of the ways that things have worked or reading history books, that may have been in fact written with certain bias in how certain stories were told your belief in context or that you have a handle on content, is compromised in a way that will not allow you to interpret the content. So talk us through a little bit of how that first day that work of trying to actually educate us, but ultimately send us on a mission of furthering our education of understanding. What let us here is such an important foundation for anyone who wants to try and do any kind of anti racist work down the road. Absolutely, and thank you for leveraging that that sort of framework of it's virtually impossible to get content ride, absorbed with

at understanding. What formed that right, which is context- and so imagine you know- for the listener, trying to squeeze four hundred years of history into about an hour and a half rabbits Yeoman's work, to say the least, and so that's why we want you to continue but the idea of creating these timelines and what we do is your product? Try to walk through specific times in history that are blocked by certain events, one thousand four hundred and ninety two, when we all believe that Columbus sail the ocean blue and discovered forty nine states of America, you know up until early In hundreds when chattel slavery right, the trading of human lives for profit became would have exploded on the U S and in the colonies and three more sections of

after that, the idea being is: can we identify in these times things that happened that were considered to be racist and what will get to kind of a good interpretation of racist racism a bit later, but suffice it to say those things that were racist in our country and those things that were anti racist or resistant to racism and most of us can't put a darn thing on that timeline, because our history didn't teach us that right. I I've worked with several clients, and I I I typically would ask them how many of you have ever taken. A black history course. And in college or maybe even high school, and usually no hands, go up. That's how he had taken a white history course, neither college and no and go up somewhat, every hand in the room should come up because that we learn fight frankly and written from a white dominant supremacy narrative it just it

mean it was mean spirited or mean intended? It just means that the Victor writes history right and people of color have not been in the position of being caught. The big deriving power ass, a walking through that, and you know we invite you okay, this is not a test, so it's not a patter fail. Take out your cell phones, you Don T, your favorite search engine and Google? what happened in these years and then pocketed that and you start to see the light come on when people begin to write these events down and and real there was a lot going on that we never heard about ass a week walk all the way up into the nineteen sixties or seventies, and by the time we're populating these timelines. You start to see people realize it. Ok, wooden dealing with the historic narrative that now were able to take a George, Floyd and Place

That context and understand why the revolution is still going on. How is this movement from the context of history playing out differently than say the civil rights movement in the fifties and sixties or anything that may have existed at any point in time? This feels different. Why do you do you difference and if it is, why do you think it's do, I think actually there, but I think it's a lot like the civil rights movement of the sixty's and I'll. Tell you why the participation across racial lines in this particular movement is Agri. The world wide participation is movement is staggering, as we saw with the sun rights. Movement was the luminaries and leaders of the civil rights movement knew that it had to be more than a black people's movement. It had to be joined with conscious, courageous white participants

new that is so what happened as a result of the third, the second track over the Admin Pettus Bridge. And some Alabama was at bloody Sunday was televised. So what happened is the is the dead? The reality of the struggle came into homes and people had to decide what do we do with this now? Similarly, with this movement, of course, television new cycle has been around for decades, but I think what makes us different honestly and socio this had been looking at. This is what a psychologist- here's, the carbon nineteen pandemic In part day, because we don't have our detractors and we don't have our meditators, we can't turn the NFL lot or the n b a or an enema faulting those, but typically when there's tragedy in the: U S, what do we do? The the the show

one the games must resume because America needs to remember that America, we don't have those things now we are inundated like they were in the sixties, with the Edmund Pettus Bridge, Buddy Sunday incident we're seeing these things. and were recognised, and we can't get away from it. I think people at their core debarred, empathetic. I think people walk to their justice, oriented right, though the arc of the moral universe is long, but it always bends towards justice. So said Dr Martin Luther king, it's our that's! Our our birthright is justice, and so I think we're we're having a combination of things up a liberation of unfortunate murders, the opportunity to sit.

isn't that for long periods of time without distraction, the modeling of what resistance and protest now looks like and then having to ask ourselves see it's harder, it's harder to stay in neutral, it's harder to stay inactive. When your conscious is prick- and you see examples of people moving now it's time for you to determine what do I do with that and we're seeing people say not on my watch, yeah nah, so good and in a weird way, it's hard to find you know silver linings or gratitude of covert nineteen, but if one of the silver linings byproducts ends up being that in the absence of distraction, it's affording conversations about things that may not have otherwise come to this level. The surface,

an okay thing to see as a as a side benefit to a you know a hard thing in and of itself on the second day of the training we pivot from now, having some foundational appreciation for the context that allows us to interpret the contents into a conversation around power and privilege, and so as much as I'll be honest for me again as I am someone who is also on a journey to understand racism and am still judging critically my own privilege. This is a hard day of work, because when you dive into and ask you, know our team or ask anyone who is listening right now to think about and processed the structures of power and the emotions around privilege, its uncomfortable it. It is just a it's been inherently uncomfortable thing, and so me. I know that I've really had to try and learn about the systems of oppression that were all around me.

that many times I was not even necessarily aware of war. Maybe

I notice in part, because of the poor privilege that I am afforded existing and had to start asking a better set of questions, start spending more time with people who are not inside of that same space of privilege, where they are of course affected every day by those systems of power or or or or or not the recipients of that privilege. Ah one of the things that we did, that I thought was really a helpful exercise was some brainstorming around owning our I r, o and R. I r s right, internalized racial oppression and internalized racial superiority. Can you just talk a little bit about what those two things are because for me there were a lot of light bulbs that went off in the midst of my own journey. Yeah it'll it'll probably be helpful to just to sort of draw this word picture of of coming out of day one and recognizing that, in addition to set in the context, we wanted to do some work around definition. So

we're all thinking about things. The same way, not that these definitions be provided are the end all, but we believe that they're solid definitions around things like our and and privilege, and policy and racism, and things like that, so that, when these words come up throughout the time that we had together, we would have least be stinking similarly about those right which would result, and some really really powerful conversation

back in one of those happened to be around the ideas of internal rationalized, oppression and internal rationalize periodic. Typically, those things find their homes distinctly on rate on the different ends of of the radio spectrum. If you will also internal rationalize appearing orally, would be something that would be characterized in the life of the dominant culture or White America. Right. So is this idea privilege and to an extent that we internalize at really means it becomes a part of our being and becomes normalized. We don't recognize. That is something that results from the myriad inequities produced by racist power and racist policy in racist ideas in our country from one thousand four hundred and ninety two. We don't recognize that it's just who we are. How many times have you heard a white person say? Well, I'm just white

so normalized that just why so that's racialized superiority, right and white becomes a standard right. So there's nude, colored, and aid or new ties. Well, my nude and the new it showed up on those band are two different kinds of new right. When I used to have hair back in the day, I remember those times a lot of here too dude. I have a rock and a big fro back in seventies. It was hard for me to find hair care products and barbershops. I literally had to drive to a certain part of town. Right. So it says that I am now non standard, I'm other which supports the racialized superiority, because you can go anywhere and get your hair done. You can go to any store and buy your hair care products in new band AIDS will blend into the tone of your span of your scan. No problem at all on the other side of the spectrum is internalized racial oppression and it's win that oppressed,

group in this case, specifically african Americans internalize or normalize the way that they are in equitably viewed in society that they are is valuable, that they aren't as smart, that they aren't as capable did the art as, to go to what goes on in society. We measure ourselves against a standard of whiteness running. really saw that in the forties and fifties with the straightening of the hair and and these kinds of things There aren't really subtler said in order to be sort of civilised and assimilated. You gotta take on shore these factors and ideals in prison. Second, a White America. In order to be valued by our society. That's an internalized. Racial oppression

What it does is it really really really wipes out the very essence and core of who we are as humans right. My blackness is a part of my humanity. it should never be anything that I relegate to a notion of needing to be transformed or redeemed deemed. It should be embraced, as should your history, heritage and culture. But those are the effects a racial ized superiority in Internalize Rachel. I internal, which lies oppression both both day are toxic. I mean one of the things I it's so eye opening for almost everyone. Every white person on our team was here. bring a little bit of a stories around how these things have these systems when how about systems next,

have created this single idea that white is normal and that everyone else is other. Let's. Let's talk about systems. It sure, is one of the lines that man I just stuck with me so much when it comes to race. There's a couple of different definitions, but the one that you know, I think we stuck on was a setup. she's in practices that by design are leaned in two to produce a certain outcome and the law that you used that I just like a blue my mind. A system is perfectly designed to deliver that outcome that it produces. Even if it's bad, it was perfectly and to deliver that outcome. So, rather than complaining about the outcome, you gotta take a closer look at the system that produced the outcome, and in that we start talking about this, I spurred I would love for you to talk about like the iceberg analogy. In addition, a bit about systems in general. So I'm a systems analyse, I teach that in higher education, I've been drawn systems

ever since my early years in my professional career, because I Stand that it's not necessarily about all the in the independent pieces is how all those into a piece of whatever they are is how they operate together. It's how they relate together and what they produce is just a product which more important is. What is the system doing? What are the components of the system? the iceberg framework that we pick and we can get an iceberg in our mind. We usually see this is huge piece of beautiful, so the triangular structure, that emerges from the surface of the water, and most of us we think about icebergs. We think about it was an iceberg that sunk the titanic right, which is interesting because a titanic was heretofore, a herald of his being an unsinkable ship, but it comes into contact with this tremendous iceberg suffers irreparable damage and sinks.

the tune of loss of hundreds of lives, and what I like to point out about the iceberg. Dave is at the part of the iceberg that the Titanic, with below the surface, it was it wasn't a part that we marble at by the surface, so consider the part above the surface and all the things that we see in the news cycle, all the names that you mentioned, the Sandra Bland's there and George Floyd's, on the of the spurred literally- and so we see them when we there's nothing beneath it and if just chisel away at this papa. This iceberg will be ok, but what really happening what's holding these incidents, these violent acts, if you will, with holding them in place, is well below the surface of the water. So, let's dived down four minute if you will write? First of all, I want to know that we did in the training, as we do with all of our clients.

We don't get in that water. You asked the question earlier. Why is wisest so hard The reason we don't get in that water because it's cold, it's dark and his deep and it's easier to stay on the surface and chip away at what we see below the surface Anchoring that iceberg is what we call racist power and racist power at his essence will always be self serving The reason that humanity decided to enslave other humans was for. self, promoting or self serving or self interest, One reason it happened. There is no other reason we need. These things done and we're going to have you do it for us. It was self interest layered. On top of the racist power neighbours, racist policy.

And racist policy are those laws and constructs and procedures and things of that nature that we begin to write and produce spoken and unspoken that serve the self interest of the racist power. So a real, quick study of our constitution would reveal that they went a point in time in our concept. Where was legal to enslave humans in our in our in in our nation's governing legal document it was written in there. Isn't that it was ok for people to own people right just uh Hilo example of policy and on top of the racist policy, or will we call racist ideas and racist ideas of those things that you have to generate.

to keep this thing in place, so you're generating sayings like black people on a smart black people are lazy by people in violent black people want handouts, black people are unmowed abated black women are hyper. Sexual back man will make rate white black women. Those kinds of racist ideas are people. Soon right consume and then allows them to support the policies we stand, keeps in place, a racist power and what happened in the midst of this, as we are now other ring people big time, we are other in people and we like to say that whenever you other someone, the last domino to fall is by hunch. That's where you get the Oscar Grant's right. That's where you get to Trayvon Martin's, that's where you get the right on and on and on so what breaks through the surface of the water. These incidents are a product of centuries,

British power writing racist policies reinforce him through racist ideas that allows you to now kill someone and then say: well, they were violent. They were threatening my life they were on and on and on inside of some of the structures that help support or don't help support. However, you want to say it the the the the the the things that exist that afford people to think the way that they might you find things like education. You find things like the justice system. You find things like healthcare. Can you give just a few examples of some of the ways that policy or the ways that power or have influenced the structures that have afforded the I that that

Racist racist ideas to exist in the first place right right right, so this is take the education and start with a Supreme court ruling back in the late 1940s forties, Plessy versus Ferguson resulted in the separate but equal law being added to the books I about the federal government and what basically meant was? I were We are not integrate the races, we're going to keep them separate because understanding. That's that's! That's good! for the racist power not to commingle with a less intelligent race. If you will want to keep them separate. Moving with equal, When will we all know that separate was never equal?

and so there was an equities in every aspect of life and health care to education on and on and on so fast for tonight. In fifty, four, with brown bears boredom education, which in essence, desegregated schools but also began to descend its society. But that was the idea, but when most of us don't recognize Dame is that with Brown versus board schools, weren't desegregated black schools were closed and black students were sent a white schools What happened to those black teachers? They lost their jobs, they lost their livelihoods, and so that wasn't really said there so we're talking now, these these powers and structures that perpetuate inequity? And

So you you you're having these blockheads carry the burden, that climate of burden of being in a place where they know they're not wanted learning a curriculum that wasn't develop with any consideration to them and expected to succeed when they did not succeed. For obvious reasons, the racist ideas were perpetuated. She did not like us, they can't learn with us right. So now we've got these desegregation rules, but we also have now. This thing called red lining and public or social public policy that doesn't give black folks access to the same financial wealth. to buy homes, and so they wind up congregated in these government. Low income neighborhoods, which began to be called Ghetto and all the negative connotation that go with that school,

those that are now find it are supposed to be funded through property tax, public schools, I'm a lot of property being on so the school The underfunded you you're starting to get the picture right, and so when you have these underperforming schools and high truancy and dropout and pregnancy. What is that? David says it reinforces what the racist ideas idea c c they're, just not as capable as we are just one example. We can talk about healthcare. We can talk about the criminal justice system, that's just assisted! That's that's why our goal is: keep learning, keep learning and you're. So here's one thing that racist ideas require racist ideas only require believers who don't require thinkers. Racist ideas, as want thinkers got me thought for a moment. Wait a minute. I think we're all created equal. I think we all have a mean. None of this is

illogical, none of this is genealogical right. Black people aren't biologically inferior, We are new and I brother with your hands himself on, out of this call, you- and I are ninety nine point, nine percent. Exactly the same, I don't want that went into percent is written, Yes, the white and black thing I don't know want all add I mean I love that we are that much but when we are like getting smarter just by being more like you, I'm here for it and likewise man and likewise, why so biological, but the racist ideas, if you think about them. Begin to unravel them. But what happens? Is people consumerist, racist? It's because they need to believe something right. So that's why we're painstaking in our historical context and our definitions, to promote thought and not just belief when one of the things I just that was so fascinating, is that you can see a domino from

Nineteen, fifty four still playing out today in how school, funding or teacher turnover or out of date, textbooks racially based testing bias. All of those things exist because of a string of things that have existed and the only way to change them from existing in the future is to address them now rain. If in a cellar, get did, maybe that's just an education You could you say, do the same inside of the justice system with in mandatory minimums or yes, racial profiling or with heavy police thing. You have to understand how those things came to be and why they've been perpetuated for as long as they have been, but at least bringing it into your consciousness. Maybe affords you an opportunity to become a thinker and in that thinking affect the kind of policy that may be disrupts the power

at the base of the iceberg, so yeah, absolutely if, if you're, not, if you're, not thinking about these things, Damon just adopting and consuming righteous ideas, and when, when a George Floyd and your able to relegate that too. That's just one bad apple of a cop. you're able to do that, because you have no historical context right, you haven't, you haven't, thought critically about power policy and ideas or you've not been exposed. But what you do you know that okay doesn't mean that all cops are bad. Our son is a cop, so I know all cops aren't bad, but what it says it is a policing, four hundred and fifty that is carried through from the origins of policing which which originated with slave catchers. That's how police force started, which slave

Yours right so be B. Think about an end. There was along the boats day. That said, if you catch a slave and he dies in the process of recapture, you are exonerated from any kind of punishment or prosecution wow. That sounds very familiar. very familiar, so we're wanting it. This all sounds very overwhelming right in terms of ok, you're talking about centuries of power policy and ideas. How do I begin to unravel them? How to what difference? Can I make

That's the question for the data that that's the question of the day and in one of the things again that you said that has stuck with me and for anyone who's listening and has the same question: the idea of neutral being a thing that people I think at times can justify like hey, I'm supportive, I'm just not being active. Can you talk a little bit about the the moving sidewalk the inertia I'd have to walk against. To actually are the kind of progress that we might hope for yeah, so sociologist Beverly, Daniel Tatum. is credited with this. With this idea of saying that we are all born into the society and placed on a moving sidewalk of racism, she wrote this in her book. Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria, so we're all place on this moving sidewalk of racism? She doesn't, attempt to argue whether or not there is racism, that's a given for her and she said

unless you turn around and start walking vigorously and intentionally and aggressively against that moving sidewalk, you gonna go with the flow of all those thing that support racism. There is no neutral and what was interesting. David said when we first conception why this idea there's no neutral what to do with many of our time have some people that we work well and started the intake sessions. We do were hearing from the white participants. Well, I'm not a racist. a racist and what their standing in that is. I've not actively participated in hate crimes or calling people to word or discrimination or whatever, and so

We thought about what does it mean to be not racist, where people are really saying it's unnatural, I'm not actively resisting, but I'm just a map actively participating and tell him tat. His example said, if you're not actively resisting your passively part appeared at minimum right with all the way is, is a hard thing for anyone be here, because I think I, like humanity, defensive This is not an anonymous, I'm not, but this is the point. I mean that if there is a point, this is the point that attract not actively participating in something that works against. The current is passive participation in a racist system in racist power that, but it just exist. It's not a thing that can be debated. It just exists, and I think that the problem that we are fed and a society that in lock your leads us against action, is personal comfort.

we're all fed the problem of personal comfort. That's what it's all about right and if we're, if we're comfortable, then the world's okay and you've I don't know how many times in the course of this package, you lose it to the idea that this is uncomfortable. This is difficult, so I'm not a neuroscientist by any stretch, but I know a little bit about the way the brain works in terms of what it most powerful parts of our brain in the rear about craniums cranium there's a gang lay as really their part of our brain were sort of memory and an wrote behaviour restored right in

we like that we like to be able to know. We know where we left something and what time to get up and notes kind of things that are kind of routine. For us, it makes life easier inefficient, but the part of the brain is possible for decision making and action is the prefrontal cortex right in front of our brain writing only with a new developed is by disruption and challenge. So we can think back into this comfort and Don t. Let him that's our proclivity right, that's what we want to do, but the fact of the matter as it were, going to get after this medicine thinking it s going to be hard so turn around on the escalator moving sidewalk or whatever you wanna call. It start heading upstream. The question then becomes right where I was then reflect on something we talked about earlier in terms of what makes us movement time maybe little bit different right, its longevity, its death of participation, People are recognizing and listening to the rhetoric and reading a lot that people

recognizing this isn't just about saving white people, saving black people? This is about saving, humanity right, why people are recognising that whenever we note an injustice anywhere as a threat to just show me where any clues me right so so Dont want are, are in this in this activism sphere is for say why people to fight for the rights of black people going to be certainly a valued outcome, but we want you to fight for the right you're being denied to be a whole person, because, as long as you are you're under the influence of internal racialized superiority, you're not operating your whole humanity, because your felt need to grow, develop a ball, suffer loss but still be relevant. If you're, not in, if you're not encountering that, then you're, not

engaging your future for humanity. So I'm I'm hopeful that, what's giving this movement, the longevity that we're saying is a realization that this is not just about black liberation is about the liberation of humanity, yeah. So acknowledging that it's higher that it's going to take work requires energy that we have to do it. It still ends up being something that I think a lot of white people are frankly self conscious of knowing how to start this journey, that a plenty of people on our team were representing an interest to reaching out to their friends who are black or someone inside of their community. Actually start making some of the progress on the sidewalk the opposite way, but they don't. You know, like necessarily know how to do it. Well, they're nervous, if they're going to make a mistake, what's the best advice to give to a listener who's, not a person of color who wants to be supportive of the black community, but doesn't know where to start. Yes,

I hope so in the training that you are exposed to and in the Digital Guide book that basically tracks the same content. It ends up with your ability to create your anti ray this plan right. So we all know that in order to get anything accomplished, develop a habit are you all are great courage in your audiences around ninety. They challenges giving two things time, TAT really sink, any become, become habit, right, tapping

is that part of my brain it loved routine, and you need a plan, something that you can. You can refer to and bounce off others, and so that plan has has several sections to it, but I think the important part is we want. We want folks to start writing something down and it can be a simple day that can be as simple as I'm going to read some more books writing. So we provide a book list that you provide on our websites and our Instagram pages a great place to start We encourage people to watch a film or documentary just expose yourself pique your curiosity is not a one size fit all. I would not recommend finding a black tutor I felt are really really really weary and general of tutoring white people on how to do this. Work. We've been on the short end of the stick right, and we're babbling our own do a consciousness to borrow from Debbie the boy spit, but there may be

a friend in your sphere. In a word friends, we can talk and have open conversation. I don't feel that way at all, but at but I, but I don't wanna go responsible for your personal growth in this area. I can direct you right. another. Another thing we suggest is as you. What did you work through your timelines ride and so in your timeline, you're exposed to different policies and ideas and and discoveries? Will she went back to that thing and said how that's still playing out today and can I get in ball with something that resists that so you've heard the story about the starfish on the beach right in there all washed up and low boys tossing starfish back and a guy comes along and said: what are you doing son? He says I'm trying to save the starfish there. He says: well, you can't possibly save em all and he picks one up and throws it and says yeah, but I save that one yeah, but I save that one so

you ve heard of death by a thousand paper cut some I'm hoping for life suicide. A thousand micro actions, as I want to leave the listeners with the idea of what you do matters even if its self education that matters could what you're going to pass on to those that are in your sphere, is something enlightened and not something darkened, and we need more light energy than we need dark energy, yeah, there's so much happiness in all of this. In such important work are, you, are you hope, full of this being something that will actually for the kind of genes? That's necessary it? I know that the long arc is long, does in fact bend towards justice, but I talk about hope how how does hope show up inside of a season like this yeah, I'm you you have to, I think,

Inherently look for hope. I don't know that hope is necessarily just this inert emotion. There needs to be some indicators. They don't have to be huge upright, but I think there's some huge and an indicator that a reason for hope, right and there's a worldwide movement happening now and one of the benefits of being caught. The most powerful nation on the planet is that people watch us and what we do and makes worldwide news right, and so there, gauging aspect of that, I am hopeful that the amount of an adept in the level of conversations that are happening, I'm I'm hopeful, because everyone and we engage with theirs it there's a different level of expectation on their part did not just

the check the box and say see we did diversity training, but they are really looking more for transformation than they are for training wretch, aiming at the bare utilitarian I'll, come to it Train me now. I can do this and I'm gonna be better for that transformation has an element of change to it, regulates we're we're talking. I we're talking about at the essence, we're talking about change and people are wanting to change and by the way, that's probably day at the root of the difficulty of this a little like change were changed resistant and so on extremely hopeful on a number of points, and I think not least not the least of which is the long journey up. A move that it continues continues continues to move. I am here for it at my goodness doktor at Baron, what a blessing to just sit and have a conversation about.

our things but important things and just lay a little bit in the context for how, if you as a listener, are interested in exploring your own journey towards actively participating in anti racist momentum? Push against the the sidewalk that is moving towards racism. There are ways to do it at if somebody who's listening wants to understand. you do better or follow you or get any resources. Is there a place that you might direct them inside of your world? Yeah for sure? Thank you. So you can find it. everything I talked about on my website. the Red baron dot com. You can link there to a digital guy that people can do a self directed study or do it in a group. It's called our understanding racism, one hundred one. Basically, the same curriculum: we took your team through.

You can follow me on at Baron twelve added baron, twelve on Instagram and linked to my fire. We can find resources there, I do a lot of work. I'm I'm interest, infamously or famously known as brick. Barons, father and imo with that and an end to play your car. Alright man, you'll, be known. As you know, Jackson saw your forward Noah's dad. You know all the above and me you man And better, but dad at Britt Baron you can find resources air or on her wrist on her website, Britt Baron dot seo So you can find us there the work that we do wakened Deb resource information. We love to connect man, that's us and working to put these links

into the show notes, so anyone who's listening. You can hit those show notes or go directly to the the that the good doctor here has just provided us us. You are a gift in my life. You are a gift to this podcast and and just so so grateful that you afforded us the time and your wisdom. hey. Thank you so much brother. I appreciate you my pleasure man. Let's do it again. We will do it. We will do our have yourself a good day, we'll talk soon. Okay, by now,. Rise together is hosted by me. Dave Hollis. This show is produced, Chelsea, her foosh and edited by Andrew Weller, with production support by sterling coats Cameron Berkman, is our executive producer rice together is a product of the Hollis company.