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strangers are participating in this largest civil rights demonstration ever in Memphis. Tennessee, its march twenty eight nineteen sixty three, later today, as the march moves up towards city hall, DR martin luther king will speak to the striking orders and there are some to one hundred black sanitation workers have been striking for just over six weeks. They complained of horrible working conditions, abuse racism and neglect that it led to the deaths of two thereof. And today, Martin Luther king Jr is flying in from new york to lead a march in support you on my back People to live in this work

starvation wage. The withers is there to is taken photos as usual. Ernest gathers. The striking workers outside for group portrait they stand in its formation about thirty across several rose deep tightly, packed in the frame an indelible image, hundreds of workers each holding a sign with the same simple message: I am a man, larger martin luther king is massive downtown march on methods is now under way. Several thousand negroes are marching towards city hall. At this time, many

the demonstrators are carrying the sign. I am a man, lay stretched out for several blocks. Earnest withers was a legendary photographer. He took over a million photos before his death in two thousand seven jackie robinson, a wreath of franklin Elvis even president richard Nixon. He photograph them all, but it was his photos of the civil rights movement federal, most stunning, most enduring images earnest didn't just kept, Your history earnest hope created without a pitcher. We had no movement. Andrew young, was an early leader in the civil rights movement. Part of Martin Luther king In your inner circle, anytime, sitting around talk any was in their dig in big martin appreciate him for what his pictures were doing to help publicize, where we will do it young says if you want to know what the fight for civil rights felt like If you want to know what it looked like just look at us withers.

photographs, I grew up. In his photographs, all the time they were apart of how I learned what the fight for civil rights was ernest eye and camera captured my heroes, and that was no small feat for a photographer to be in those intimate places to get close enough to really capture the moment. The subject has to trust you its clear, the doktor king and other similar rights leaders admired earnest, persistence and his dedication, emotion, pardon. the about doing anything, their loyalty, it matters he talked about it in an interview before his death, whatever people expect of you, wherever you commit to do do you know I won a hard, but

I had that they have a real sense of being trusted and respected. For my word, beyond my by too many, he was just any and when he called king and other leaders always answered because they trusted him. But what if they're truss was placed today. Reporter Wesley lowry hosted the podcast unfinished ernie secret, from scripts. News and stitcher brings us the story. He starts at the museum. The aid it memorialize earnest legacy Mozart comic What he's noted for globally, It is used. We get a request for that image from every part of the world. Earnest

rosalind withers is showing the around the museum she found it after her father's death, it's on bill stress in their right in the heart of members ominous, a small selection of his photos hung in simple black frames line the eyes out its civil rights on this wall in at the top of all of us photographs. The most popular is one that earnest took during that sanitation worker strike it's the original. I am a man photograph. It's one of the first pictures. You see hanging in the gallery, it's making a statement and when you think about Why do you have to wear assigned to save it? To say that I am a man? Yes, Why would you need to do that? You have to a sign to say that I am man, but you see it in this spectrum. It's in Malta. Why is this group having to make this the fact that he had a tool?

dead, expose the injustice and he put it in front of the media. The way he dear gave them the or let them keep their lives because lot of times. Life was taken and things were covered up and buried and none of this was no, but with a photo and a photo that could go out then everyone would know what happened exactly, but here in memphis earnest was has known as a civil rights for talk, for he was the city's family photographer bert. is graduations. Weddings palms earnest got to know everybody in black memphis and he wasn't just taking pictures. He was making personal connect It's the first time I met ernest was in the living room in this house. He came and he took a family portrait. He was just like a father to me just like a father,

and literally chronicled my history from the time I was borne up till I guess my using movement every time, not a moment activity he'd, be there Return we had church rally, assumption need be there, so he heard He saw everything. He knew every day, but as the civil rights struggle grew earnest took on a steady flow of assignments from black newspapers. The black editors realised that this was their story. They are movement, and so they needed to be on it. Ernest became there go to photographer little rock organs and the first phase of the trouble the wider population determined to prevent colored students from going to the school children attend on the day I am black students- were escorted by the national guard into an all white high school in little rock arkansas. Ernest Withers was the one who shot the photo, the jury to get them back and return. A verdict of not guilty when two white men were

quit it of the murder of fourteen year old, emmett till in sumner mississippi it was early who got the picture Are you prepared to begin? A process is officially called out in earnest. Was there his camera shudder clicking when doktor martin luther king road, the first desegregated bus and Montgomery alabama a little better than Montgomery are preparing for the fucking tomorrow, let alone aggregated it was dangerous work for a black photographer. It took courage for him to do what he did. That's ross, withers again artist's daughter and that's why he had a relationship with with Martin king, because martin recognize that, if, if it's exposed, then that gives them that edge of awareness to take the or to make the next step. My brother refers to my father, father's being the google

the google of his time in making people aware of things educating them those relationships between earnest and king and the other civil rights leaders. They became one port and over time more intimate over the years, Martin had known willows since the montgomery bus boycott days. They were friends Andrew young says the earnest was always in the room He had nearly unlimited access when doktor king and his aids, or in memphis earnest was, could come. He was a lot of fun. He was all, he's telling jokes. I mean he is like a comedian, Everybody knew him and everybody like him. He was like family, the guy in the corner, with a camera constantly snapping photos seeing everything, hearing, everything and taking pictures. I frequent the would withers diet died, two thousand seven and eighty five, his funeral in memphis

with state of the procession. Slowly down peel street, led by a brass band, seemingly all of memphis had come out backdate. They were there to usher there. Homegrown hero. The glory oh wow, I realized afterwards at the works, like the outpouring of admiration for Ernest withers was so great that even his daughter was taken. They did a big celebration down bill street and they d a motorcade throughout memphis place. Where my father had been, but that iconic protection would soon come under intense scrutiny, because there was another story about another.

his story about his photos in that story was about to emerge the a few months later across town in the newsroom of the commercial appeal. Ernest death had jog the memory of reporter mark paris skier more than a decade earlier, a confidential source and f b. I age, who had worked in memphis during the civil rights era, had handed mark a stunning tip. The agent claimed that whither. The legendary photographer had been among the paid informants who helped the fbi, monitor civil rights activist, but in the year since it have remained just that and unconfirmed tipp mark had never pursued the story. I just let the whole thing rob I never did in and with it, and it was only until after honest died into them.

in seven at age, eighty five that I thought about this again mark realized that he might now have a way to figure out the details of earnest time as an informant privacy. Rights are a lot weaker when someone has died, and that makes it harder for the government to shield information from reporters so mark If a public records request, I filed it, and I didn't hear a thing back for months audit and, as a matter of fact, I think that first thing that came back? Was that we have? nothing, eight months after he sent in a second request mark walked into the office unfounded in letter sized envelope sitting on his chair. The return address the fbi. When we come back, we go inside that envelope and discover a massive. U s: government surveillance operation against its own citizens, douglas richard corti, observed

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From the centre for investigative reporting and p r eggs. This is reveal a mallet today were till the story of a legendary civil rights photographer earnest withers. Eighteen months after withers death mark pair ischia, a reporter for Memphis newspaper, finally received a reply from the f b. I it was a letter size envelope mark was trying to verify a tip that ernest had also been a paid informant for the feds. The documents inside the package could hold the answer, so he started combing through them. Looking for clues and he found one code number in the sentence and what it says at the bottom of the report is ernest columbus. Withers was formerly designated as m E. Three thirty, eight r m e three three eight r

just six letters and numbers recorded in the official fbi documents. Immoral know exactly what they meant Am he stands for Memphis? Three, three eight is a sequential number. He was the three hundred and thirty, informed in the office. The are at the back of that was a suffix stood for racial informant, these were individuals who are investigating what the fbi, I'll racial matters, subversion, unrest, issues that crossed racial lines, and so hers have been recruit. as a racial inform. It was a start, but just a start mark had cracked opened the door to earnest, see pass, but there was so much more still hidden, because so what I mean you know he's an informant. But what did he do? You know, and so I've got that puzzle I mean it wasn't like. I could go rifle off a story. It took mark another two years of fighting.

And eventually suing the fbi to give the agency to admit that earnest worked as an informed and to give up files and photos, They showed that between nineteen fifty eight in nineteen seventy six, he contributed more than fourteen hundred photos in written reports to the fbi. Vault in earnest just selling pitchers. He was selling information through. Today's lends its easy to pass judgment on earnest. Words like the trail and trader come to mind.

But it's important to understand the world. He was living in back in the late nineteen fifties and sixties, one of the best known buildings in watching the department of justice era, the headquarters of a nation practice law enforcement agency, the federal bureau of investigation, a main focus of the fbi, and it's director, J edgar hoover, was going after what they called radical agitators and subvert this after world war, two that men, communists, recognising a communist physical appearance counts for nothing It consistently reads and advocates the views expressed in a communist publication maybe a communist obsession with communist led to the creation of co until pro approach to monitor communists in america, but it didn't stop there over time. The programmes list of targets grew larger and larger.

From the civil rights movement to the american indian movement to the women's movement and a long list of individuals, including martin luther king. This is what just got caught up in when he first crossed paths with the fbi. In the late nineteenth fifties, Wesley lowery hosted the podcast unfinished ernie secret introduces us too big nor is the man who recruited earnest, is to work for the fbi. It's four months before christmas. Nineteen sixty seven and the lord's family is ranging themselves in the living room of their memphis home. Dad settles into the upholstered easy chair my father sittin in that chair. It was the same cheer that he said in every night to ride up his notes into a report. Mom stands behind him and daughters, betty and Nancy flank their father. Everyone is dressed for the occasion.

dark suits and dresses, moms, even wearing a double strand of pearls round her neck. That's me on the right. My sister on the left on the arms of the chair and my mother sent him behind my father margaret lords Nancy Lawrence Betty lawrence The they all stare out across the living room to wear a camera is purse to top a tripod behind it. The photographer earnest with he was on the other side of the living room, which wasn't huge tall, dignified black man with a camera on a stand. He took that picture and daddy was real grateful and we got the prints that we sent out to the relatives at christmas. The way Betty lawrence puts it ernest was her daddy's black photographer friend. This was the first and only time she'd ever meet him, but I had heard of Ernest. I should say for years over the dinner

apple daddy would tell funny anecdotes about various people that he had talked to that day. You know or even older and has said this, and it was funny, so I felt like Ernest was somewhat unknown quantity and by the time or came to the lawrence house to take that family photo hidden bill had known each other for several Years I knew that he and daddy we're friends. I still feel that way. You dont you dont, send christmas cards. Ten years after you ve seen a person if they're, not your friend, earnest withers had taken hundreds of photos for bill lawrence and the two men had had countless conversations, but these were found photos. It wasn't small talk. Bill was also known as special agent, william h lawrence, the fbi's top official in Memphis. He was in charge of the city's domestic intelligence up.

patient chasing communist ordering spying in four years running paden form in earnest withers. How did bill in earnest first join forces? Why did earnest sign up to help the fbi to help it spy and a movement that he done so much shelving. The truth is we may never really know both in the manner that neither of them can speak for themselves, but we are able to do the next best thing. We spoke to their daughters, rosalind, whither, and betty Lawrence Ernest withers and bill Lawrence arrived in Memphis just a year apart in nineteen, forty five bill came to a new city for a new job. Of course, that was just at the beginning of the cold war of and communist. You know that was the big threat and they were going to get subversives out

I dont think that my father thought there were communist around every corner. I think he thought that there could be communists around most any corner and I think he saw his job at figuring out which corners to keep track. I have and which he didn't need to worry about, for earnest. Memphis was home, it's where he grew up where his family had lived for generations and in nineteen forty six. He was returning back from war. By that point, there were three children in the withers family and five more were coming. Roz was the youngest, the only girl I was his fate reconsider. I hereby assume as seven seven brothers I was raised with, being the only girl in the last of dorothy

miss weathers. It meant a lot when Ernest got back from the military. His father had wanted him to be a postman. Just like he had been- and he said, no, he didn't want to be a postman. He wanted to be a photographer timing. It turns out is everything because the battle over desegregation was just about to begin and the black press needed journalists on the front lines since, before the civil war that have been negroes in the south who raised for equality, the right to take their place among men educational standards rose at their experience with the outside and segregated world increase. The number of those who spoke out for equality, also in greek one place where the fight for black equality was playing out, was fayette county tennessee, a rural stretch, just east of memphis. In the late nineteenth fifties, black residents made up three quarters of the population. Most of them were sharecroppers the land that they fall.

Belong to some one else, but even though black residents were the majority, the economic and political power was all white. In nineteen, fifty nine, those black sharecroppers began, registering to vote and the backlash from white landowners came swiftly. They kick the farmers off the land, Mary Williams and her husband early were the first black family to be evicted by every means so, where the fresh night that we moved tent city, the ground was just really frozen. Real heart manhood It's okay, we'll learn their tent, we cooked in their tent. We live in at ten sixteen foot by the end of december. Dozens of evicted families were living in canvas tents with no water, no floors. The encampment became known as tent city,

ernest was there to cover the story bill and the fbi were supposed to be there supporting the black farmers enforcing their rights vote, but the records show that they were also spying on activists. In one f b, I report dated December twenty third nineteen sixty there's a photo included in the fbi files from Faye accounting. We dont know who wrote the report, but the second paragraph says this photograph was made available to special agents, william h lawrence.

Joseph H, Kearney Jr by freelance photographer, Ernest c withers? It goes on the list. Ernest studio address three nineteen beale street. This is the first photo at least in the files that we have access to, that. We know that ernest supply to the f b. I yeah. We don't know exactly what led earnest to begin, providing photos to the feds for what his early conversations with bill lawrence would have looked like. Did the bureau pressure him? Do they threaten him unless he worked with them or did ernest seek them out? Was he eager to?

your information may be earnest thought that, by cooperating with the fbi, he was protecting the movement, the f b, I was not seen as the enemy per se. Here's betty lawrence. Again, the f b. I was the federal law enforcement that could protect black people in the face of white police or state troopers or sheriffs that weren't going to protect them or is roz Withers puts it. They were the best of the evils, the fbi I was yeah. They were the best of the evils. Why was that? Because they were, they would listen or they would adhere to what their complaints were, and sometimes they were used to step in two in my eyes, just thee, the evil nests of Jim crow, times when the local land

Listening government couldn't be trusted, you might call the feds exactly so, while photo or an activist today might say: I'm never talking there yeah. I know now what we know about what the f b I did during the summer. Rights, movement or surveillance. At the time it might have been a different calculation. Well, at the time when you think about what was happening, you know we didn't even have the right to vote so who always they what to do hmm

hmm. That last point that ross is making is yet another reason why Ernest might have worked with the f b. I essentially it might not have been a choice, sure the f b, I was a better option than the local police. Let the f b. I was also incredibly powerful. If it didn't like you, it could use that power to destroy. You may be earnest him feel like he could say. No, the truth is we just don't know by February lawrence was petitioning his bosses back in washington to put ernie on the payroll he wants to make him an official confidential, informant here's an actor reading. What lawrence wrote in his files because of his many contacts in the racial field pluses index, it'd willingness to cooperate with the bureau, as attested by his recent furnishing of information- it is

recommended that withers be considered as a pc I a pc, I a potential confidential, inform it. This was the start ernest new double life the. Ernest spend a lot of time in places like they at county. he was on assignment to cover the struggle for voting rights, but he was also on assignment for the fbi at the time allowed Out of white university students from the north were traveling south to help support the voting rights movement. One of them was. Ten year old, terry brown. who, on a warm summer morning in nineteen sixty five was heading to memphis with her friend cash williams, who was a local black teenager active in the movement they were excited earnest withers was gonna, take their picture. He invited

cash in me to come to his studio for a photograph men we accepted when arrived at earnest studio in Memphis. He asked them to sit next to each other and to look into the camera. The cash has very dark skin and he's got shades on. And a t, shirt and one leg cross any looks like awesome, cool, minnow, heavy duty dont, with me on this cool dude and I'm there in my summer clothes kind of staring out like what you got. A problem with this in the photo terran cash or sitting close her arm is resting, atop his leg, his arms wrapped around her back a bit of a brush trap, is peeking out on one shoulder its intimate staring. It's just the way earnest, probably one of it when he pose, though, and looking at it today, Terry's right, they do look pretty bad ass in that photo.

So how people would have seen the picture back in eighteen, sixty five- you might say- oh my god, her shoulder. It seems to be touching his chest and and her seems to be leaning on his leg and they are way close to each other. What was going on this could either be you'd in nineteen sixty five as yes we're standing up for integration and for people being with whom they want or oh The roof is falling in on us, these blacks and whites, so cool to each other. What what has happened to the world? The young white volunteers lived with local black families and of the many things at the white residents hated about the outsiders. This was the thing most likely to set them off throughout the history of american white supremacy. There's been an obsessive focus, and the supposed purity of white women, a mixture of racism and patriarchy. That was the driving force behind countless lynchings and a major fat,

the southern resistance desegregation, but the locals weren't, the only ones, keeping a close, john terry and the other white volunteers. Memo dated five twenty one, sixty five, the right while interviewing earnest see withers confidential source, discuss the general racial situation in faye at county and surrounding rural areas with him? The writer here is bill lawrence and discussed euros, internal security responsibilities and intelligence responsibilities. The point of all the surveillance. According to the f b, I was to monitor any potential communist influence in the movement in one report. Lawrence warns that the left, leaning, white volunteers are trying to build a cadre of young negro teenagers in fayette county.

in another report. Lawrence writes that his informant earnest fears that many of these negroes we'll get a distorted view of society and are engaging in and experiencing a socialistic oriented, beatnik type experience for which they are education, the way, a motionless and culturally ill equipped to deal it's condescending and conspiratorial. Remember all of this is about a voter registration campaign and, of course, it's impossible to know of earnest ever actually set any of these words or, if they were put in his mouth by bill lawrence and written into reports like these, in pursuit of the bureau's agenda before long lawrence had enlisted earnest to help him bill dossiers on many. The volunteers, including biographical, details and photos. Terry brown was one of seventeen volunteers who the f b I considered of particular interest. Due to what lawrence referred to as reports of quote. Subversive references

for each of the seventeen volunteers, the f b, I kept a file, a run down of any and all connections they could find between that person and any left wing local crew, trina, Lorraine, taylor, coordinator for the regional meeting of the w e b du boys, clubs of america, Judith and I's ensure duty eyes, ensure attended a teenage conference of the labour youth league in Chicago IL and Karen Susan wolf memes,

If the madison wisconsin chapter of the w e b du boys clubs have a mile of gotchas in nineteen fifty three vert a hunt, the sister of olive gotchas, was then a leader of the communist party in vineland, new jersey, richard corti observed corti in attendance at a young socialist alliance meeting at the university of was Henry's brim balls or participated in a sit down demonstration during the annual presidential review of the cornell rotc. All of these photos were sent back to washington to william c sullivan. The number two man at the f b I who ran cointelpro the bureau's covert operation for spying on and disrupting political groups, that the f b I deem subversive now terry brown has seen her fb. I file she's angry with Ernest sure. He did some good work, but for her, his collaboration with the feds to villainies her and the other activists was a betrayal, a betrayal of the very movement that he claimed to believe it.

I mean you can say he hustled to make a living. Where every could he had eight children to feed the tenant farmers sharecropper their got thrown off his land? He had children to feed, I can understand somebody who is conservative, not supporting the tennessee voters, project, maybe not even supporting martin luther king, perhaps not even supporting integration. I dont know what I cannot justify is collaborating for money with the fbi against anybody's right to vote. From my point of view is not forgivable its he caused a lot of harm. Yes, he did great pictures. Other people took pictures, it may be wearing a stunning. Maybe weren't is popular, but we would have had pictures loud earnest withers. We would

I have had a lot of the suffering that we had. Terry believes that would earnest did was immoral, defining his legacy, mostly by his betrayal, but others he spied on seem differently. I knew and I will kill anybody. A man was not a snitch you'll listening to reveal. The the

hi, my name's catherine, miss gower ski and I'm a senior reporter and producer here reveal reveal, is nonprofit news organization and we depend on support for my listeners. Donate today at reveal news dot, org slashed, donate thanks. The from the center for investigative reporting and p r x, this is reveal I'm AL later, when the story broke, that Ernest withers, one of the most respected and beloved civil rights photographers, have been an f b. I informant the reaction

It was surprising. I was really sorry that it leaves out the way it did I think he deserved it. Civil rights Andrew young said he didn't think doctor would have minded earnest, making a little money on the side. However, get paid whether it be jet, They have the eye. He should be encouraged to make their living and tell a good story, but their veterans of the movement when less forgiving, dick Gregory the activists in comedian who had been personally tar- by the fbi during the sixties, didn't mince words Judas. He called earnest, others felt understandably in Hence I never thought did anybody would sail their own community out in earnest of all people could be smith, had been a young activists in Memphis. When he first met earnest and over the years he grew to think of earnest. As a father, we did not know that he was keeping up with his weight. Thou did

he was just a person who was out there taken a fixes a course for others. Earnest story was just a part of a much larger narrative, the government's unchecked power to spy on its citizens to decide whose ideas were dangerous and needed to be destroyed. Wesley lowry hosted the pod cast unfinished ernie secret picks up the story. On january, seventeenth, eighteen, seventy three earnest withers ain't, his camera at fourteen ninety, eight marjorie, shriek and south Memphis. It was the local black panther quarters willie henry live there with his wife and several others. I got to know ernest weathers, while I was in the black panther party, earnest delivered three pictures of the house to the fbi. One was from across the street. Another was a close up, showing the steps leading the front porch and another, was from the back yard showing a narrow, rear entrance. This was the kind of him

Should the f b I could have used to storm the house. Kids later William, Henry junior settles into a chair and his busy office in downtown Memphis. He was born here and as a kid he lived through segregation and the rise of the civil rights How is a person who belong to the interplay cp as a child, but after dark He was killed. Attitude about what it might take changed I was drawn to the black panther party, because lived in self defense. The black panther party, was formed in oakland California, in nineteen. Sixty six It was an organisation that advocated for black nationalism, socialism and arm self defense, particularly against police brutality. It was also known for its social programmes for breakfast for kids and medical clinics. And went to the black panther headquarters, expecting the joint resolution with a gun and found out

that. The revolution was consistent with the gospel survival to service of the people. That's what kept me alive when the black panthers arrived in memphis an early nineteen? Seventy they became Earnest focus at an informant the fbi and the memphis police had a team of informants that had infiltrated the panthers but willie henry says he just doesn't by that. Ernest was one of them. Now some people have said that ernest was an informant and every time I hear that are really colonel chuckle, because if he wants, ebay to complete fool out of the people who were paying him. He had a lot of children and there was a lot of money to be made as a photographer for ernest and I think he exploited the hell out of the memphis police department, f b I and anybody else who thought that he would tell them anything substantive. That will make a difference in anything they wanted to do

and what he wanted to know. That seems a bit generous, especially given some of the fbi reports. Here's one in which earnest details of guns that were supposedly being stored inside the panther house, memphis tennessee august, ten nineteen, seventy three source advised there is a thirty eight caliber pistol and a shotgun located at fourteen ninety eight marjorie september. Twenty six, nineteen seventy three. They also have in their possession a twelve gauge shot gun which is kept in the living room this house, a fourth gun, a small calibre carbine is then the possession of willie henry but really was to explain away even this report when we show

with him. The f b I records. He told us that all he sees is a man making some money for his family that nothing in these records actually proves that ernest did him any harm. Those who want to paint him as some kind of double agent they're so far from the truth, and they obviously don't know him. I knew him. I tell anybody. The man was not a snitch. He was just shrewd and use some people who are anxious were information and didn't know when they were being faithful, almost said bovine fecal matter in the battle between the f b I and the movement will he says, there's nothing in these files that shakes his belief about which side Ernest withers was on. There is part of my black experience that toughens me

Can I shake it off because what could have been a good bit any other black panthers if they kill and that's not impossible at this point? So when I say, did no harm a picture mine My address, I was on a life and death struggle, envy make me believe, or I didn't get killed, he did no harm I see him is more of an asset. Then a deficit to everything we do and I acknowledge the fact that the information that he shared could have been I heard a lot of people, but earnest was a hero, and I don't know hero who doesn't have flaws.

awesome the information that earn was kicking up to the f b. I could have been used to hurt people willie says that he doesn't see any evidence in these records that it actually was used that way, the real harm, the real destruction was done by the government. and will use the only person who earnest informed on whose arrived at this conclusion to feel betrayed by earnest not really rosetta, miller, perry, work for the civil rights commission in nineteen sixty eight? She was the field representative assigned to cover the sanitation worker strike in Memphis. Do you Think no, you said you don't feel betrayed you, don't really feel betrayed now. Do you think you would have felt betrayed a few had known this up,

time, when you were younger when you were still and actors in the streets, if you found out if when I was younger? Yes, why. because I was more active and militant. Angry and bitter, but and now I've mellowed out, and I just feel that he did what he had to do to survive. But back then it would have been. This would have been a major betrayal for you and for your for your colleagues, yes, and you would have felt at the time that might have put you in danger. True, according to the f b, I files earnest keep the agency photos of rosettes. as well as internal memo. Five thirteen sixty eight regarding photographs of rosetta miller on three twelve sixty eight any three. Three eight are ghetto furnished photographs of rosetta miller clerk. U s civil rights,

its commission office federal office building Memphis taken in February nineteen sixty eight. He said she is the who is a rumour monger and one who will give aid and comfort to the black power groups. It has to hurt when you hear something about you that you know that's not true, and people are spreading things. I can't it didn't hurt me, but it didn t hurt my career more than. Two years later, rosetta more generous to earnest and less to the government. We don't trust. We ve been line too. So if there is no element of trust in our we're going to feel this way,

if forever, that, if your choice is between believing the f b I or giving the benefit of the doubt to someone you know have known for decades, who was in the trenches with you that said, easy choice, yes and from what we know about the f b. I today we don't have any confidence because We know now that they face They make up things, they do things they create thanks. They destroy people. The I consider ernie where there is a civil rights hero again reporter mark perestroika after breaking the news that artists with an fbi inform it more but a few more years, digging into the story. He eventually wrote a book called spying canaan, but he was complicated and his

were complicated, and what we see in this regulation is the wards that were never painted on the official portrait which are held full and understanding this period, and all this hurtful oppressive, intrusive, that the government was doing and spying on american citizens for mark. This has always been first. Almost a story of government overreach, but I think in it L, a story like that there is going to be some pain. I mean there's no way of getting around it and it's kind of pain of pork. As it really is, and not just glossing it a meeting of putting the warts on the face and the whole deal, because you know we all have shortly we all have failures and and This was his. It was. I just think that, the larger story, trumps, the pain and Inconvenience of of it all what? What did you?

think when the story first bow, wow, the story, but that he was the fbi agent. I was just wow. This is daphne mcferrin repair violet and john bub led the voter registration movement and fair county tennessee. Daphne now runs the Benjamin l hooks institute for social change at the university of Memphis I'm before her parents died. She interviewed them asking them how they felt after learned. The earliest withers had been an informant, so my mother's response was, she was a success, as it all she didn't know, but was a surprise. It all She said in a paraphrasing that, basically, he was a complicated person, my father. On the other hand, he just threw up his hands and exert, aspiration. I knew my father well a death when he passed. He was ninety. or he'd seen a lot he'd been through a lot and he suffered both mentally and physically physically, because,

if he's involvement in the silver rights movement and my father and mother were both what we call back in the day, race p, well what that means is that you, your obligation to your race comes first, you don't out your people, you don't do things that make your people suffer and you protect your and that's what it means to be a race person. We also understood that people like withers are created by this country free, which has had some of the most oppressive attitudes, can do. since our reactions to african americans, the withers conduct was created by the very country which persecuted.

Ms activist. I think there was an unwillingness to speak negatively about withers, because while the clearly did not approve of his conduct and would have been absolutely live, it tat, they know that he was informed in the sixties, time perspective gave them a long term view of how these in view sort of people's contributions in people end and also they have some understanding of of how people can be pushed into doing things which made on the sad appear of their own volition, but in fact, are you ever really control when you control nothing? So its interest because, as we talk with a lot of activists out with activists from this time, people who knew earnest people who were betrayed by earnest. We get a lot of that perspective. This since that, while at the time we have been really upset about this, but it know maybe he didn't really have a choice,

there was this truly of their own volition, given the power dynamic at the time, the power of the fbi Relative lack of power that earnest as a black man would have had. What are the different factors at play there, but I don't think it's that complicated. I think what we have to look at and what I look at is. Mr withers made a decision. He made a decision that he wanted to be an f b. I informant it was a choice whatever reasons this worked for him, and this was a row. He was comfortable with yes there our forces. That do asked how we navigate the whirl bet, especially this. I think we have say there was some respect: myths, MR withers, action, some decision on his part to do this, and let me a distinction here. My folks did talk to the fbi, clearly not enough

organs, but to get protection there were threats against my parents all the time and even in the evictions the sharecroppers, had to talk to fbi agents, because the fbi agents wanted to know who were the white farmers who evicted them. What happened, and when did they try to vote and that kind of thing, so they did see the federal government as providing some pretty action against the white citizen, council and right exist in their own communities. That is, distinction between being a member the tea. They understood the limits of what the federal government could do. In a nutshell, I would have to say at the end of the day. Yes, they were external forces, but he made a decision to do this thanks to

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