Language supposedly has all these rules both of us never have to think about those rules, but the hidden hand of language guides nearly every interaction we have other people determining whether we connect and attain confuse insult or dazzled the people we communicate with in radio link the new part. Kasparov do only go and crooked media. We explore how language shapes our world and how our world shapes length, I'm amabel yeah, I'm an audio journalists and James beard award winning right, I'm in all its complexity and its implicit in the way we can use it to create both distance and understand. I'm going to be your guy join us we take you on a linguistic drew from crooked media unduly go. This is radio starting november fifteenth on your favorite buck s apps the present experts Are pod. Save america is simply safe home security. No matter what

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wash crooked wielding a positive miracle? I'm John favour. I'm tommy meat or on today show Joe mentioned fucks over the planet. While democrats try to make progress without em in former report, Can strategies TIM Miller is here to discuss his new book about why so many of his friends and colleagues went full yeah address. Who is not here today the person is not forgotten written at a time of is that your journal of it is. Is it going to kill us feeling ass if he is not, here is a cold he's, fine, the preference for pre exactly also comes on tour. We are hitting the road later this week and next month later this week,.

Gonna be in seattle in portland in august will be national in atlanta tickets are selling fast, so go grab some at crooked dot, com, slash events and come say: hi we'd love to see her. Let's get to the news: a global heat this has led to record breaking temperatures across north america, asia and especially europe, where the intense heat, his cause, death, drought and wildfire, but here in the united states president Biden's plan to fight climate change was defeated on thursday by JO mansion. Beware: virginia millionaire who became rich from his family's coal business and has taken more care pain donations from the oil and gas industry than any other senator. How about that After yet another round of negotiations were senate. Democrats were sickly willing to give mention whatever he wanted on climate. The wealthy whole. Baron said he couldn't support any tax or energy provisions until at least september, because he wants to see of inflation imposed by then that the latest excuse,

mansion has reportedly told chuck Schumer that he would support a reconciliation bill that allows medicare to negotiate for cheaper prescription drugs and extends more generous, affordable care act. Subsidies for two more years said Democrats will try to get that bill on Joe Biden's desk before the august recess time. What has happened here? Why did these negotiations fall apart between this time between Joe mansion and chuck sumer fur like the hundredth time into Years, maybe we divide this into what mansion and humor, say happened, and then later we get to what we think happened greatest for me. They're not the same. You know me me. Neither that's great good place to start. Yes, imagine claimed that the latest inflation numbers, the nine point, one percent increase in consumer price index in june is upset him and you decided that he can't support a package that includes climate change spending or tax increases. This gets even we're confusing as you try to follow it, because

days earlier mentioned. It supported a plan to raise taxes on the rich by closing certain kinds of tax loopholes to ensure the medicare solvent but, as always find a consistent, here is probably not a good use of our time. The washing post also reply that match until the group of business leaders that he would support, raising money to go towards deficit reduction is very folks and deficit reduction. These aims. the thing that so infuriating about this john, is that all this Economists, not a smart economists, say that that bill by better in these provisions would not lead to inflation, because we're talking about climate spending over a decade and they're all offset by tax increase right. So none of this none of what he sang under this logically makes sense. I it's ok to be concerned about inflation, is sure your concern about the deficit, but he's taking actions that don't you Sense, given those concerns- and that is what makes this conversation stolen fury- I mean men

in an and John gone. I'm in the house and a few other centres. Democrats have been making noise about this for a week now, but these tax increases on the wealthiest individuals on the biggest corporations, because what like this, this is getting rid of the trump tax cuts. wait about inflation? The word about, like a big corpse, gin or a rich person like a tax increase. That's gonna hit them in texas. That's going to them. Inflation will spend less cause. You got taxable like we're worry about those people having a tough time with price increases that that's. Where were you rights fucking, ridiculous. So that's what they said. What mention says happened yet Well he's basically saying too, like I didn't, walk away from it, because our that we could still do this Well, maybe in september, if the inflation numbers a better by september, you feel he wanted to once again down the road a few more months, but I think at this time, trucks humor and Joe Biden were like no more we're, not gonna wait or on two september then have you pull the fuckin follow again in september and then that's it. Yet what

thing is a german understands that successful propaganda doesn't mean convincing you that black as well? Europe is down, it means confusing. to the point where you lose your mind, and that is what it's here over there I many years trying to parse this meant words or fall as various positions is impossible, because they are truly incoherent, and I think that incoherence was a strategy in service slowly strangling this bill bit for whatever reason, because he's from fossil fuel ethical state and you never wanted to pass? He doesn't want the fossil fuel economy or by climate change. Maybe it's because easier from lobby or big donors, or maybe his own. financial interests? I dont think you ever wanted this climate change language to pass. I think he is strung us all along and now here we are. In fact there are people at the white house who have said that mansion tells Joe Biden and every democratic senator exactly what they want to hear, and then he changes his mind when he talks to the staff and he changes my whenever he talks to some lobbyists and he meets with lobbyists

is very impressionable Joe manchin and he has been looking, and I've also heard that he's been looking this whole time for an excuse to not do this deal that absolves him of responsibility right. So he can blame it on inflation. He can payment on progressive for asking too much. He can blame on the white house for releasing a statement that erasmus name racism in europe. With the hurt his feelings. He wants to be able to say no to the deal, but he doesn't want to be at fault forts. We wants to look for somewhere else to blame or someone else to blame. He got everything if I can ask for in these latest negotiations and climate humor basically said he first of all, you got rid of the clean energy standard in the last round of negotiations in this round. He got oil and gas production included. He got the electric vehicle credits out. He changed the direct payments for energy companies to a tax incentives for clean energy companies like he got everything and then what is because Schumer kept saying yes to everything. He's like oh fuck. I just got everything I wanted now, I'm going to have to say yes, yes, we need a new excuse, yep, it's bullshit. It had absolutely both

you think there is anything by nor surer. Any other Democrat could have, or should have done differently to get a better outcome here. The honest answer is I don't know I mean I don't know. Joe Biden could have had art. The harder negotiation earlier done, something to bring mansion around. I do think that Schumacher did not play the expectations well for all of us, because He knew were mentions. Red lines were for a long time while progressives were for more and more to be an early versions of build better now, of course, dimension abandoned this secret letters. written to chuck, Schumer and all the red lines he didn't had in there. But here's what ultimately lead. I Joe mansion did what he felt was in his political interests, and you know what it worked. Joe mentions appeal Reading the first quarter of twenty twenty one and west Virginia was forty percent in early twenty twenty two morning, consult found him at fifty seven percent approval and west virginia. The increased from republicans and independence, and he protected fossil fuels in the state.

Joe mansion did what was helpful for his narrow political interests, so that looks on us here I were debating like as a stupid. Is he craving he's a hack politician who I wants to get elected again, wants to run again and aims the goal that any man, a brow beating from the white house or Schumer or progressive gotta changed his mind. Because he knows in west virginia being seen as being on. Democrats is good politics for him and he cares more about his future. Then the planet's used. Yet your exactly right. You start with the question: how do you get reelected in a trump plus fifty state not easy right in a twenty four, and the answer is everything that we ve seen from Joe mentioned over the last two years. That's the answer that it We have fights with liberals your executive picking fights with liberals. It's like you could have. You could send one thousand progressive to west virginia to pick it outside of his office. That's only going to help more with voters in west virginia. There aren't any progressive and west Virginia there are of democrats, must west virginia and that we get so now the question

somewhat till you once over are looking back isn't that Dave Roberts podcast? He was talking with climate activists. It is worth noting that the democratic party as a whole has improved enormously on climate in two thousand nine, the cap and trade that past the house got something forty no votes from democrats this time, basically, every like democratic congress was for the climate change provision and build back better except mansion. That went much much much further than in two thousand I so I do think the climate activists are doing there. things are winning sunrise, with all these groups out. There have been kicking ass in focusing on this, and centering climate in democratic campaigns are doing. The right thing is just like We had a razor than margin in the one guy we needed represented a coal state and it sucks just like we don't have approached choice majority in the senate, because mansion and end up in the filibuster thing approaches: anti filibuster majority. We don't have a program. that majority either, because dimension is not on the fucking deep and

the only way to deal with that is to make sure what John fetterman an a democrat in wisconsin and reelect, the democratic senate, reelected mercado house, and then you have a pro climate majority ends in in the in congress. Then that's the only way to make sure the Joe mansions voice doesn't count as much as it's counting right now months, like one hundred and thirteen degrees in texas and like texas, doesn't our group that functions that things are going green sunday, question then is what else can the Biden administration do about climate change on its own and what? What about safe, with democratic governors and legislatures show me that the federal government buys a lot of stuff and one thing that activists would like to see. The white us do is use that purchasing power to incentivize industries need, so you buy a lot of vehicles you by electric cars by others, zero mitchell vehicles which incentivize is growth, the entire industry? I think that something that will do Biden could band drilling on new federal lands in federal waters? They could phase out the? U s: government financing of fossil fuels

checks, and then you gotta lean on international organizations like I'm after the world bank to try to do the same, but you just do conservation of land generally. A lotta climate groups want and to declare a national climate emergency which would unlock some authorities could direct the gpa too. which limits on the emissions of greenhouse gases. Some people want him to use the defense production act to increase manufacturing, clean energy vehicles, Now that the challenge with all of these ideas is that courts are now filled to the brim with tat four year olds, trump lackey judges right and we have a supreme court there, just last week, rule to make it harder for the epa to regulate carbon emissions without authorization for congress says the chair, a lot of this stuff, we'll get challenge italy in court and could get struck down. But I don't know

you meant for and against trying. I would act as some sort of legal expert or climate expert yeah, and you know, and Dan talked to Amy. Westervelt of cooked meat is hot. Take part about this. When the e p, a decision came down from the supreme court and she actually said it was not as horrible, she thought it was could have worse and they still retain. The epa still retained some authority to to limit greenhouse gas emissions. Of use other between? Third from sheldon, why has the democratic senator from rhode island, whose big climate hawk? How dare you ask if I saw Sheldon night, has not tweet threat? Of course, I too, how can I, mrs shelton lack of twitter threads, will be put right? because he is in the end, the twitter third, he advocated for inexact. Of branch quote climate beast mode. I'm sorry, one at that. It says he just did a holdsworth rid of all the executive actions that Biden can take and he wants he's got the collected beats mode and that it's it's a lot of that. It's basically everything you just said: tommy plus a rule that would force energy producers to account for greenhouse gas emissions as a cost of doing business, so puts a carbon price and a rule

requires major polluters to use technology, to capture carbon dioxide emissions and impose stronger pollution controls on cars, like trucks and heavy duty vehicles. Obama did cars and light trucks abandoned administration go further than that? Now you can make it even more energy efficient and then, for the first time to rule on heavy duty vehicles as well as marsh online, such an one on climate peace mode of I like it, Sheldon white has so that's climate. I guess we're left with is reconciliation bill which went from Bilbil and states what states can go? I'm sorry states, yet you know a lot of things. taking aggressive climate action. We live in California. Luckily, we've done. Lotta gray worked as a state white cap and trade programme. That would cover is mandated carbon free electricity by twenty forty five, this incentive for purchasing electric vehicle. So, yes They are doing great work. Basically, did some like twin two dozen some odd states have signed this climate compact do try to basely stay in the paris climate accord, so things are happening on a state level. I think that concern is what

loses governor ships. What, if the court strikes down. You know the ruling that is even more radical and directed in inhibits era. Capacity to action on climate. What if congress does something if republicans gain control, full of everything and twenty twenty four like that, that the longer term concern the right That's on climate. We were left with his after starting with this. This bill back better bill were left with healthcare in prescription drugs, provisions how big a deal or these provisions in this smaller reconciliation do so not seen all the details in the drug bill. It seems like it would lead medicare, negotiate directly with drug makers, over the price of some of the most expensive prescription drugs. I would penalize drug companies that increase prices faster than inflation and cap annual premium growth. That's a big deal that that's It's very important for seniors were struggling to for drugs and then the ace

provisions would extend healthcare subsidies to people who got them as part of the american rescue plan for two more years and I think, insure something like thirteen million people don't see a big premium increased if you're one of those thirty million people. This is enormously important for you you're! Someone is struggling to pay for your prescription drugs. Obviously it is very important to you. So I am not opposed to. getting this done or suggesting it's on important issues. Often you know this is We Democrats do a lot. We end up, comparing what were able to do with? What we wish we could have done in a mixed accomplishments, looks there was understandable, but you know what, I will say that moralising, allowing medicare to negotiate for cheaper prescription drugs is one of those democratic policies that politicians have been talking about for as long as you and I ve been polity decades, we joke about the like every single democratic presidential talks about like stopping tax breaks for companies that ship jobs over

seize and given him to companies have reached us here. A campaign that lives medicare negotiation is like is like that one. It's one of the most popular polling policies. Time is one of the things the Democrats been talking about forever and haven't done and just common sense, and it's common sense, and it's going to also cap annual out of pocket costs a two thousand dollars for all medicare beneficiaries. So that's an annual thing so that it is a pretty big deal, but it is, of course, just a small piece of what we originally for not infuriating as you as you read about. You know Portugal and spain burning to the ground and we're doing nothing on climate, like I totally get it runs. Restoration of this would be very important for a lot of seniors. Alot of people are struggling to pay for their medical bills. So, after this reconciliation bill Democrats, don't really have the votes to get the rest of and gender pass between now and the mid terms. Biden said: he'll take executive action on climate, so we'll see, if you take some of the action that we ve just been talking about here. Also take executive action on student debt relief willing. We ve been way for four, while there's no excuse for that anymore, more and basically take executive on end

elsie administration thinks they get away with. At this point, is you have come on? let rather mesdames the houses. also reportedly moving forward on legislation that would guarantee other rights that republicans in the supreme court might be coming after, like contraception and gay marriage and pelosi and Schumer have have talked about setting up votes for these. What do you think about the I like the idea I mean we talk about this later with similar about the need for democrats to force republicans to vote on things that are incredibly unpopular like and then I think, speak to the extremism of the republican party, because clearly what we are seeing is that, in the wake of dogs republicans are satisfied with their efforts to strip away abortion rights from women. They want to go a lot further. Yeah take crews wants to ban gay marriage. There's people are talking about passing the muster cognac

anti abortion laws. You can think of they're going after all kinds of rights. So yes, I'm in I'm in favor of putting forward as many tough votes of republicans as we can will it matter, I'm not sure, but to withdraw. And you know what, if fuckin joe mentioning pearson cinema, decide that the filibuster is more important than than gay marriage, then the right to contraception, then they can explain to their constituents, and I think it's probably time at this point for for Biden and the rest of the democratic caucus which they're moving towards to get a little tougher with them they fuckin bought those. What's the thing that's been very frustrating about all of the conversation around the climate change provisions and the reconciliation bill. Is it's really written as in intra democratic party disaster or a mansion? Only failure when there are forty, nine republicans who oppose doing anything to stop the planet from becoming an app yeah, because many of them don't believe in climate change in the first place, and and all of them don't want to do anything right, but they all just sort of get a pass like them eat the more cynical you are, the more you get a pass on, not doing anything, that's challenging, no topics

Let's talk about our democratic candidates handle their campaigns between now and november. At this point, you know on one hand, we've got a president with low approval ratings to democratic centres who fucked up their legislative agenda on the other. They get a supreme court and republicans That's arguably more extreme and it was under donald trump, which is which is maybe one reason that the polls are showing that some of these senate candidates, democratic senate candidates, are in better shape than Joe Biden, and it's polls are also shown that the the midterm generic ballot is a little bit better. For democrats and worse Joe Biden's approval ratings dan, and I talked a little bit about the thursday? But how do you think Democrats should run an environment like this, which they be saying in the campaign to yeah look at it. With the caveat that I am sceptical of Paul all pulling forever, and always thanks to the last couple elections I do things worth it are from answer this question sort of are writ large like how should all democrats around, but I do think it's worth worth looking at a couple of campaigns that are going very well, let's start with a federation's campaign in pennsylvania, said John fishermen running for senate. He isn't

able to be on the campaign trail since may, because a medical issues, but in that period I feel it I have retained more messaging from his pain than almost any other campaign out there, and obviously that's in part, because doktor OZ is a fun phlomoides like target right values. Just a weirdo snake oil salesmen celebrity who live in the state by the ferryman campaign, has been unbelievably creative and focus with their ads, and I really think it's working right there. They are snooki from He sure yet to record a message on cameo about a doctor. I move from jersey the pennsylvania to find a new job that went provide viral was incredibly memorable was talked about on the view right like that is like the gold standard of viral. online ads, they ve the federal campaign figured the doktor was recorded. A tv add in his new jersey mansion the hammered him for that when doktor, as went to dislike tourist trap, cheese take place and philly fishermen

tweeted him in saying I, yes, the triptych pats plus gino as a right of passage for every tourist. They a banner over the beaches sing welcomed in new jersey, relic the tone is light. It's funny. It's meant both in its relentlessly on message saying this guy is not from here. it is so impressive. There feeling this. Of not having canada on the trail, the raising a ton of money there on the air I mean just like they are doing and how it should be done right now. I think would so effective about that is it? Is this guy's not from here, but also he is out of touch me, doesn't give a shit about you, and I do think that that is a message for democrats about publicans that we have not heard enough or has it right and it's like these people. They don't care about inflation, don't care about gas prices, they don't care about your rant. They don't care about your cost of living, they care about to say

and who you love, who you are allowed to marry when you start a family, how many kids you have what they learn in school? What books they read what politics they have like. This is the shit that republicans care about. They care about. Having control over your life they care about, controlling they don't give a shit about your costume and they don't give a shit about the products that you have. Care about like in they care about imposing their narrow, extreme political view on the entire country. Doesn't matter of most people don't agree with that. They do not give give and so I think fetterman has made great strides in defining doctor oz as an out of touch out of state celebrity weirdo. The other sir theme you're seeing out there is my opponent is very extreme and I think the warnock campaign, is doing a great job of defining herschel walker. In that way, because again, herschel walker he's helping out a lady's helping out the one I campaigned. Lahti said some incredibly rich stuff. Most recently, who is, it was hurt, a locker talkin,

our climate change and the issue being that, like good air, is floating over to china? Displacing your dad air and what is this guy time he's, told incoherent like a lot of his campaign, and I do think you need to drive that home, because it can be disqualifying for voters and look a recent poll again. I don't trust any poles, but a recent poll showed warnock up by ten points which issue king in georgia, which is shocking, giving way Air binds approval is so I do think like they need, pressing that advantage, drilling walkers unprepared for the job. But that kind message that my opponent is to extreme for the job, I think, will be effective, in georgia, it'll be effective in wisconsin for whoever runs against RON johnson cause you just loony tunes. It'll, be a potential message for the shipping? campaign against doug mastery, Mariano in pennsylvania user? Some really I could do role as John Mccain would say: extreme people out there running for office and revoking party this year, and I think you want-

define them that way as early as you can- and I didn't we ve been talking about this all year, but I dont think you have to choose between my opponent. Extreme in my opponent is out of touch. I think it is. My opponent is so zest with his extreme positions or her extreme positions that they dont give a shit about. You like they're, there you're, trying to criminalize all abortions, with no exceptions whatsoever. That's what republicans care about. They don't give a shit about inflation. They don't care, but we are struggling with. And if you can combine both than I think worn ox doing, that waiting fishermen's doing, thou well. Orsino a lot of these democratic centre races, yet budget, really great, like work by campaign team especially this digital teams, that folks grandma I am content to fill the void and deliver a negative message against their republican opponents. While the candidate either impediments cases of authorised silverware recovering or were carries a positive message about what to do. First, it totally are. When we come back, we will talk to a t miller.

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joining us in studio today, writer at the bulwark MSNBC analysed former republican operative and author of the book. Why we did it a travelogue from the republic? road to hell, are old pal tim Miller I was right. John. It's been a long time, you're starting to look like Roger sterling over there. Oh god invite you all for the nice to be back with you guys. I know it's been a while. It is good to see them get self conscious here fired up. When I wrote this fantastic book It is about why so many of you, republican friends and colleagues, ended up going full mega, which we will get too, but you were pretty tough on yourself and I would argue, more self, reflective and self critical than most people in professional politics. How did you get to that place I thought I had to do it if I was gonna write about them in the first.

I had an agent call me when I was I was interested writing a book and so trying that out in my tenure in the tenth year of my mid life crisis, you don't want to try something else knew, and I was talking to some. In one of them was basically like TIM. Why don't you write something about like the ten? Do she easter, maga grifters in america? It's like we'll, sell a million copies of that. I was like that's because that would have been enjoyable but I thought I was gonna write about all these folks. I really needed I myself and and be honest with the reader about myself. For starters, but more than that found to undermine really understand like why they went along with budget, and I wanted to be look it myself I go along. The should I know is that right- and you can you know your own motivations, better than you can? No other people's motivations? No matter how good you are. You are. You are friends with famine and some antibiotics or france And so I wonder, if I don't look, I'm gay, how did I work for anti gay homophobia like what was the brain gymnastics idea

in order to rationalize that- and I felt like by exploring there in the book- hopefully it shine I have a light on the rationalization said that these other folks used to to go along with Donald trump so, the other. The elephant in the room, the rhino in the room, the as rhinos, are not right anymore. I know I am delighted that our lives there so used to come and croatia is back at twenty. Seventeen ends up parting ways because reporting about corporate work. You dead, including work with this guy chuck johnson, is a right wing. Troll. We read about in the book in the book I mean he wrote a very mean substance about my, but I do think that man, nine people over at nine of egg, I feel very south ass, though in the book you write about the fact that you know you ultimately came to feel like it wasn't just your work for republican candidates. You came to regret, but you also felt like the corporate work.

contributed to this broader problem? Can you explain why interrupt how you got to that place? I thought those unimportant important element of of what was in the book right. I I did something good in two thousand and sixteen, which was, I said, fuck this I'm not gonna vote for donald trump, I'm going to support Clinton and nice day work toward the pack called our principles. Back. I write about the whole at one of my favorite anecdotes in the book. Is that every other burst who is on our principles pack, which was a hit? The main principle is to stop. Donald trump ended up being on a pro donald trump hack lester. He won the primary except for me in one of the person, so I did that and- and I thought and then trouble wins, and you know we all go into this depressive place. We need to revisit all that and I'm trying to figure what to do next with my life right. Unlike ok, I can't go into republican politics anymore. You know what what I do an egg in and of an urgent, basically heard with us like a nurse it takes over right like well. What do I know how to do my career while I know how to be a hitman ike in opposition research magnet, and so I guess I'll just do it.

recovery clients instead of for political clients. I can't republicans anymore, and you know so. I went and did that for about a year or two and that's how we got caught up in our kerfuffle, based on the work that I was doing then with facebook, and I just I look back on that and it's like well any of the individual things that people are like mad at me about about that. Like you know, we can argue back and forth on like whether that was you know a good thing to do or bad thing to do. But what I wanted to reflect on is like. Why was I doing this shit at all? Like I had this big like, when of clarity in my life, which was like man like that with the republicans are going down to those dark place, but I can partly lized out the rest of my work life. You know and am continued. going along with doing this sort of opposition research work that I think was is really contaminating to the public discourse of your job is to put an egg information out about people every day? That's not adding anything to say

If you don't know the half of of anyone frankly but corporate interests for sure, and so I thought that in a lot of ways it tied into the theme of this book right in which is like a lot of the people who are indifferent shoes in me, kind of went along for the same reason like the same sort of inertia. You know like these, where people who knew was bad. Maybe they pray private, voted for Paul Ryan or the pope or whatever you know they wrote somebody in and that their republicans, I called consultants, and they said why can't go along with donald trump, I'm not going to go into the white house. What should I do, and I guess I'll just keep running for Marco Rubio and give our doing spanning fur. Corey gardener- you don't you know. The person answer in a lot of ways I felt like, even though. I got? I landed in the correct place where they did and on the matter of tromp and end the neighbours in the party like our rational, nations for a kind of continuing to do work. That was not reaching that was outside of our integrity was the same, and so I gotta go

Explain how I got caught up in that trap, because I think it explains why a lot, how a lot of these guys got cut of their trap and still are fuckin doing it seven years later. I mean it's an incredible examination of all the ways compartmentalize their support for tromp or, I guess their political lies versus the things they essentially believe in you. You do a great job of defining different groups of them. And and reading through it I mean you can talk about some of those groups. If you want and also you know, a lot of them, I held a lot of people. You talked about in the book in contempt. I think the folks bugged me the most were people like someone, you report on named Josh homes, who is of a Mitch Mcconnell stooge who supported tromp basely to get super pack money in corporate clients that might be Top person that frustrated most of the others are the the sort of committee to save america, people who are so important that they're above you know, the stink of the

because they are somehow saving the country from him. What was like as you went through this reporting, I could feel the straighten welling up anyone in chapter here right about periodically. Was there a type of person or. like trump enabler that ended up bothering you the most in the process of man the other was. I will I just wanna, get into the homes thing really quick, because I think it backs into kind of what we're just talking about like the most before I talk about the thing that bothers me So an angry positive for once I get there, they vary too. I what it's this the most gratifying that the book and that I hope you know other people take from this- is that I have heard from while begins, who are working in in politics right now who are using the same rationalizations. I did to keep doing you know this work that we are talking about and that the people in this book ricky doing they know trump, is bad. This They know, obviously they hated january sex, but there still whenever there are but press secretary for

and of senator and like my centre loses, seven saint centre will replace them and they read this fucking like man, you, maybe we're really bad about myself, but I a good way right, yeah, and so that's why I felt that's what I thought that that part was like looking at my explaining my own actions was so important and then getting into the the homes is the little like homes is just like the apparatus version of the right. I mean he now it's like Josh homes, this, like five foot for chamber of commerce. Brooks brothers republican like really wanted donald Donald trump autocracy guy. We obviously he does that. He is succeeding You know in in continuing to work in the republican apparatus like beyond any ones, wildest just imaginations like financially, he is continues to do well, be courted by tat glp donors and campaign hands, and so like these. Eyes, though, live in this culture, where they are

have to do this examination that I did in this book, because their culture that they live in, incentivize is not looking at themselves. all and actually attacking the people who challenge that right and so I think this is the important corrupting part of the dc culture. Obviously, in this we're talking about the republicans in particular, it is like, if somebody goes up to joshua homes at a bar and says What the fuck are you doing? Man? You know this guys back a you know that dead. This is dangerous in among homes. Is and group at that bar they would beg deck. As the jerk me that guy's the jerk for like puncture, ing the bubble and then well. They all might be able to sort of do gallows, humor about how trump's a buffoon and how they know he's a buffoon, and you know whatever among themselves, but it's like this cosy little club, this cozy little cold.

Sure where where they don't feel like they're getting challenged and at one of the people, adding a name every one in the books. I wanted people to be honest, who interviewed with me: what are these guys access to me on background? He's, like you know, tim, it's just like I get so an idiot, I just get so mad because EDA woke culture. in everybody's, judging me and my wife's friends or judging me and they're, calling me a racist and end. It's like. I just I feel, like I'm left a note but look at the one or two things that I like about donald trump and focus on those and focus on keeping my job, because all these other folks out there so mean to me, like I mean you can get your own backrooms here, but you know that I heard that you like. I will always know that you said that doesn't really embarrassing, but but I mean he's out there. I was forced to like him, I'm I'm forced by the left to lay out a little trinity victoria, comfortable, saying that, because that they say that,

each other right like that's. A very rational judge adds a russia that we got in this cosy place and that's what do you know where he felt comfortable with me and that's what they all say to each other. I mean, I think one categories of people that you described. That's part of that dc culture that bothered me the most were the strivers yeah and you write a chapter. That's focused on at least evonik, the congresswoman from new york, and you, you wrote that the excuse that all of her friends make is that she's, just following the politics of her district, which has become a little trump year now there are times where I have actually bought that excuse or thought about that. Excuse myself, because I always thought the way. This goes is the right way: media, radicalized republican voters and then we can- politicians just do what these radicalized voters want in order to keep their job, and that's not. You know like that, still bad, but that's what they're doing You argue that with stefanik. That's not the case like. Can you explain why? Yeah and and this is I

Well the this was the one time that politico playbook has ever been useful and because I went for it- and I at least wouldn't wouldn't talk to me. She, called me and said: I see your twitter feeds, I'm not going to talk to you for the spa towns like okay. Well, I knew at least we worked with the rnc and sounds like well, if I'm going to write this, I want to at least talk to her friends and I looked at who went to her wedding and the book, and so I called all of the people that went all the republican types who went to her wedding. And literally to a person. They all gave this same excuse like I just said what what happened to at least the first question. It's always like wow. You know this is what voters want sort of voters want, but here, but there's a there's, a fundamental problem with that. The next district over from Elise is john Captain John, with might not be a perfect, be like the positive american listeners night, and I feel like boy do I love John I, but he either to impeach donald trump right. He was the one that said that he was going to do the junior six commanded six community before Kevin Mccarthy pulled it. He didn't go along with idiotic

here's the theories about ukraine and you know, and the bite and crime family or on early stefanik saying these days and and and he kept getting reelected and camping, elected in the same district, and so I will that, isn't that wasn't it then I mean she could have kept getting reelected. I think what was somebody in a primary her? You know. Maybe she started tweeting like me. You know like yeah, she couldn't do that, but she could have survived. There are plenty of house republicans and unknown. None of you that your list has ever heard of that have survived not being brave but not being elise She wanted with some else. She wanted the rush. She wanted the brass ring and then she went after list cheney and she got it. I got the same This is also a kind of a depressing book. I noticed that brought about all this. They have to deal with and therapy in yoga. Sometimes good things do happen. people right, and so this worked for her. So what what what actually motivator was not as water What is wanted? It was I want to maximize my power within the party. I have to act like this right like this is how

you know- I can guarantee that I can. I unseat was cheney. I can to that. I can go to events and get big cheers happened to a lot of the at least I I wanted to use some other examples, but the Elise example is just so stark it like, although once felt like lame by comparison but marco, the same thing: Evan, demarco, right, marco, you remember twenty six, It was like I'm gonna, be a check on tromp or whatever, and because and then all of a sudden trump comes to florida, and it has these rallies and like it's like nothing, it's nothing like the martial events. You know they're, like these monster. Well, if people are cheering for them and they're going crazy and martin marcos, friends, I've asked them some that used to work for him that he just gets caught up in it. He got caught up in it and he- and he sees this- that that that it's more within just like this, with the like, I'm going to have to do the minimum the voters want. I want. I want the voters to adore me and I want to get as much power as I can get. I think it's such an important point, because we talk a lot about like the culture and the larger forces that led to trump yeah, as if individuals don't have agency and his leaders don't have real influence

it sort of like what drove at home for me was just watch and at last january six hearing when stephen airs, who was the random guy from a high. Who stormed the capital was like yeah. If Donald trump had told me not to go, I wouldn't have gone and you're like. Oh, if yeah, if a couple of republican leaders are in donald trump and a couple of people on fox had just said. No actually Joe Biden won the election, which is the truth they all knew. Then people wouldn't have died at the capitol right and- and let's look at this- just really quick- this counterfactual I had ten more of them voted to convict him in the impeachment thing, which obviously tend to the one to do. You know your J Mart on about his book. Many of them confessed it in private to J Mart in those following days. Had ten of them done that, like we'd, be done with this I would be over right now and by the way the republican party would be fine. You no idea what is not even a law long term. You can't even sell me on this. The voters demanded this. This wasn't like we have to do is to save the gnp bs everyone

just moved and around the center, everyone will just move to and around the sanders and trump would have been an old fart, true thing away by the pool with the cougars, and we could have dealt with ron de santis problems which are different and in their you know their own category. But yeah like actual choices, do matter yeah? You know you really. on something that drive me crazy about washington, which is politicians are talked about like they have no choice Politics must be rag them where they need to go right like they have no agency, like they can't do the principal thing and the reason, the least vomica such an interesting character, and this not to pick on her, but she deserves to be seated hours ago. It you know, there's this: twenty twelve g, o p autopsy after Mitt romney loses to Barack obama that you worked on, and yet you detail how that process went. Who was a part of it Yo you had former bush spokesmen, ari flasher, pushing for more money,

positions on gay rights on immigration, demanding that the report be read aloud in spanish to shut signal like an openness to let you know, community give a least of all literally authoring the report before getting liked it as a moderate congresswoman and then going full I mean, I guess what was interesting to me about that report in that process, was wanted. Just shows how all these people that went for magua truly truly no better and a deep level, intellectually, morally, spiritually, but also that that report that was really celebrated. The time was a lot a wish casting from kind of a d establish. In class and maybe wasn't actually listening to the base. There was No, no! No. No. We want to snort a line of info wars in red meat. Unlike the base really nasty stuff yeah. I thought there were two lessons for my like reflection on the autopsy. The first is that a lot of on the right, want the trump question to be about policy right and wanted to be like Tim didn't go along with this because he's a rhino right,

if we went along with it, because we realized we had to make some sacrifices in order to get these good policies that Donald trump really so deeply cared about. Unlike the autopsy shows, the debt is like not true at all right what divides the people who went along with trump from ditton had nothing to do with policy violation that will you might get dollars fare later in the book. She's like this hardline insane conservative, when she quits eventually and all the us, and all these rhinos, like at least ivanek, are still in there. Liz Cheney is as prime example of that. So so it really like the choice to go on if trump wasn't about policy and the book isn't about policy. It's about like these. ethical and moral choices and rationalization as far as the autopsy itself. One other counterfactual I look back on this kind of regret is, I think our intentions were pure, Certain degree that we like we did want the party to be nicer to immigrants and gays and more welcoming and and and everybody is, it confirmed, our priors of all the people in the room or writing that autopsy and that was sweet and nice. But, like we didn't listen to what the basement

and so where we went wrong is instead of dealing with that by actually addressing their grievances debases grievances. And about immigrate like they weren't about immigration and not even the base for the working class voters. The trump appeal to it, forever wars that other commute. These being hollowed out right, you can as an alternate autopsy. That's like well in others been to Miller's party but odin like maybe we can be more protectionist right in, maybe we can like be less globalist and may we can appeal to you know, actually address your grievances and then maybe there wouldn't have been this vacuum for donald trump to come into. I dunno I who knows- but I I probably probably I let that I would have at least been a good faith. Try I wonder about that too, because I think you say in the in the book that the autopsy reflect sort of the george You bush paul ryan view of the world which includes ike free my gets in low tag, rose, and those are things that you didn't want to touch right on the on the Democrats.

Side I like wish, we could run against mitt romney again and Paul Ryan, because I know that the positions we take me sufficient, me and Paul ryan or popular position, but I do wonder like how to address sort of the anger in the end. The populism that's out there with that, like the group of the party of trump, now knows how to redress that we re ism and xenophobia and all the bullshit. The question is: how does all of us how to all of us who want to like protect democracy, whether you are never tramper liberal addressed that anger. Yet anyway, that's different. I think The big question right now that I dont know that anyone in quite of the question question. Rather there is an interesting little weena sing test case in pennsylvania, and this is where I am we're a part of this all big happy family coalition that were on us, never chompers and and the law and the socialists and on the left and everybody do does love us, never trump for being part of the coalition, and you know saying you always want us to be more moderate. I'm like not really

I want you to be smarter, you know I want you to be smarter and, like I'm willing to to be supportive of fishermen against an insurrectionists, ike fifth liking. Doktor use arusha doktor by like scam doctor who doesn't work, then as just because that's that needs to happen and he's running against fatter who, like like, might not even like that. System unclear. For me, I clarified, is on some things and I feel strongly about, but I've been on for it and- and I do- and I think that this is an open I should like. Can the Democrats should do we didn't do in twenty twelve, which is channel these people's grievances in a legitimate way right and and say we're going to actually try to dress your problems by doing X, Y and see you know it in a different economic policies and and and different changes. You know and various things that these republicans are going to go along with cause they're all fake populists, like they don't That is, we want to do anything there, I'll phony and- and I think that could that

my work might not work. I don't know, but I think that the fishermen, as the most stark a test case for us, unfortunately like these test case, are pretty high stakes. Yet it's it's deemed that the mood music is dead, difficult for freedom and, although I do think they're running a really good campaign editor, I mean I guess for me that the further we get from twenty sixteen, I think the initial you're all the reporting initially was like this- is all about disaffected working class voters. They are left eye by nafta, etc that I feel them. data I read it's like actually there sort of like a hard core white christian nationalist. Base. That has always been kind of, like the the beating heart of the g o p, that people thought trump wooden appeal to there. Like. Oh, he said disgusting sinner, massage nest, ten divorced The reality is those people dont care. As long as you further their agenda, like they want you. They want conservative judge is they want abortion overruled and they want to tell people like me to shove. It ray. I mean, that's gonna, be

he. He seemed to have marry that with this young White brow republic, in like bro bible, reading, frat dude right, unlike its like he's made being a republic in a fun subversive act you know mean like being in the sixties, being I warn pissing off your parents by going to woodstock today, it's like where maggie had or you no sir. I don't know like supporting trump in some way. Do you think I have a remotely accurate, read on this and like do you think, there's a the democratic party to reach these, these younger white male voters? I feel like they're they're, slipping away, if not gone,

They're gone. I do think you have a good read on it now or outside of the confines of the books. As when everybody didn't know. If you don't like this upcoming opinion, you can still read and enjoy. Why we think we need to let the fear opinions? We don't agree. So here's here's my take. I worry like about the Democrats. Look at just the abortion thing as a recent example. Right, like you, have Dave portnoy, who's who's, the barstool guy going out and saying like this is crazy, we're overturning roe, vs wade and, like I don't know, I think women rights, are obviously some of the bar stool rogan crowd they? U dont. These brows aren't ready to be debts. They can't even iron their shirts. Ok, like they want to have freedom of choice, and there you know of any any situations that they have an end relationships and- and yet like other democrats, even trying to talk to these people,

I just don't know right it as our regions that are yet to reach that audience. I guess there's someone is capable even a prominent democrat of going on to one of those shows bernie trying with rogan yeah, and then you get to see its finger. What it is that europe is at a twitter is that a twitter phenomenon with earlier that, whereas you know damn well audience who reach my view already, I never never sure know is for sure to twitter for now, but I think that the twitter frahm on is preventing candidates from trying right they're, afraid of getting browbeaten and, as you know, the girl you guys potent alive. I he's a sexist, and on that I don't wanna defend day fortnight you know, I don't know I'm interested in boobs like I don't listen to bar stool right leg right, but there is a strategic manner in trying to speak to these people sure concerns in coalition. Build, I think, is very important. I particularly in the nature of the threat, is so good.

And that is where this does time. Look. I felt like you know that we beat down to twenty twenty. I did our vat and, like we did the boy I could have just walked off the stage here. Until they re instrument is actually very added, value should explain. A little books is, are we did in the whole european strategies and add base campaign and twenty twenty, where we had republic actual republican voters say in their own words why they were not voting for donald trump, most, that we're running for Joe Biden. Some of them were just riding in and then we tested to see which of those resonated actual public voters, and we re just adds that that you know where these rights people talking that was not enough, not cut, not not pretty scouts right. We ran up and we ran to target our. You know. Republican audiences to try to depress drones vote and some evidence has worked and if you look at certain places in wisconsin people like voted for Biden and then the republican down ticket, so so anyway, like I, I think that the sort of strategic approaches are necessary. You know, as of a big coalition, given the nature of the threat like One thing: if it was Clinton and all

You know, and I would understand like the argument for like. Actually, we need to make our party a little bit more pure and like move to the left, and you know on these sorts of things, but like right now like where the areas of where you can. Draw a broader audience. We can peel the x republicans. Were you compelled to the bros who badly many of them used to be democrats? Well, who, like they? These are obama trump voting. You know that people like how can we kind of penetrate

that said I do worry a little bit about this, about that. The effort isn't there on that, and it's it's not just these bros. The time he's talking about too. It's like a broad swath of working class voters, yeah now of all races, not just white working class voters like I just I just did a focus group with the wilderness in LAS vegas, with hispanic working class voters who are like middle of the road, okay, some some Democrats and republicans having independent and like there. They were horrified by what the supreme court did on on dobbs right. So they think the republicans have been too extreme on oddities social issues. But they're, like I care about housing, I can't afford rent. I can't for housing, inflation, gas and like who is what politician of either party is like speaking

my concerns right, there is one. There was one guy who had voted for Biden who now said he's going to vote for his his his favorites are ron de santis and twenty twenty four, but he also really likes a o c and I'm like I'm sorry. I have to ask like what the fuck and he's like, because she is an outsider and she takes on the system and there's an all. These politicians are too cozy in washington. It's all establishment, I'm just looking for people to take on the system. Now. Okay, you can say whatever you want about that view, but there is this feeling that, like people have these these concerns about, like just their cost of living in their light and no one is addressing them and no one seems like are fighting for their, and this should be This should be an area where the Democrats can speak to these areas. The republicans don't give a fuck about them. They just how you get a lot of people who are just who were supposedly these middle of the road swing. Voters were like. I do like Bernie sanders right, because someone like that of speaking to you exactly and that's an that's, fine and, and maybe and and bright economic concerns like different people, might have

print things that they want. Where solve like. Some people might want more. You know you know better social, this is better than other people say. While we need to drill more, you know that it's not exactly a limit on the idea of spectrum right, but here's the thing, the republicans don't care about that. At all like all there talking about. Is going to have to twenty twenty and real securing the last election and whether it was fraudulent or not unlike binds laptop and like what I did Mcconnell said that he doesn't have a bit of a joke I did the whole agenda, stopping Biden, and so the problem is that these voters, who are rightly frustrated, are like sending all their frustration at the party in power which, like make sense answer, so that ass to you know then has to be disregarded. In some way by by demonstrating to them that now, okay, we're we're trying to you know we're actually trying to address is the problem that these guys are the ones who don't want to do anything. There's like the sort of a two partier give your comments. the message you there's a medium issue like I do agree that we do need

Bernie sanders or any one else frankly to go into Joe rogan and try to reach his audience. And although he at the boring things about many communities. We should try to talk him in to explain to him why that's wrong and explain to his audience. Why that's wrong and frankly, as sitting, quite literally a liberal, safe space? Like that's a message, I've been trying to take to heart more these days bids. Also, you know Such thing like in the book, I think, really captures the p our and an allure endanger of you know like only caring about your You mean tribalism and resentment of the other side, because you know you think by climate change, you ve got a bunch of people and who would literally rather live in an unacceptable planet and in here uninhabitable, pointed to their kids, then admit add, annoying lives, like me, are

we're right to care about the polar bears. You know what I mean and if you're not driving around in your prius with your coffee cucina in their paper straw, just not a liberal elite hook, someone suggested a coffee colada. The dunkin donuts is a liberal. Only thing, but again, like I mean so, is your: do you think that a republic, Voters against trump style campaign, where you have a bunch of republican to say I use, and I believe in climate change, and this is why do that might be a more effective way appeal, voters away, because I do worry that you know like I. I think that a lot of Democrats just get tuned out the minute they start talking because there's a d next to their name or I also think there's a substance issue, but they won't let a gaping all my complaints and come into this say it as a tale of things that you guys are annoying me about, despite the fact that

in a hum with your humble abode, for Gavin newsom like seventeen times, because of all the recalls, unfortunately, being a self loathing? Democrat is kind of getting to the same? But okay, but also substance like on the on the abortion stuff on records? Can't we like pull some of this stuff out and hit the republicans an unfair, because they're going to block everything you know and all of the popular and b, b b. I cannot just pick one of them, unlike say: okay, we're going to run on this and if Joe mansion and the republicans are the ones that vote. No, then then run against Joe mentioned that republicans or maybe Joe manchin will get off the houseboat and decide that he'd vote. For that one thing you know or or make ron johnson vote up or down on whether a teenager should have the right to an irish at a right. Like I can't say I think that there's a a substance further this there also messenger and an anywhere I guess,

imore. My only point on the messenger thing is, unfortunately, it's going to take on perfect, imperfect messengers to break through to these people like the lesson from the book. The the is is if, if you, if we don't like, cultivate that, then then someone else is going to do but the that that isn't going to be great right and- and so you know what I mean like like, we were not the republican and I'm not saying that there'll be a democratic trump. What I am saying is that the republican establishment was not messaging the things that people cared about and and the vote we're starting to tune us out and we're like hair, here's another dosa jab, you know and it's like and it and and fighting donald trump came along, but it's like MEL F, you I'm going to go at this guy and that that I think, could happen in the like center left right, where she, where the, where the democratic primary gets disrupted by some but by somebody that that is a little bit more irreverence, you know that it is speaking more to this. You know big centre and that that people do listen to so I I do think finding different kind of messengers who are going to be responsible about it is something that should happen

it requires a megaphone to the right. I guess I really interesting part of the books and you talked about how centre right media publicity and media outlets like you've, you've talked about the independent journal review yet failed because they weren't giving the base what they really wanted? Yeah and, and- and you can you contrasted that with Breitbart, which just gave them off at all? good stuff, which is bad enough. Now, here's the house book scary thing about held them, because our media thing goes. I got a call from a bright barber after the book read the book. Said I really got it. You know, because I besides that, I gotta, because I understood that it was the bright bar. It was the two that was dragging like the josh homes in all the giant homes. Guys think that there are in charge, but they're, not like the bright bart comments section that charge- and you know you might be in charge on these random little issues right-

that nobody cares about, but on the major things they're going to our going by the base. This guy calls me and but here's the thing you messed is that during January sex bright bird because self identified, we were responsible actually because We just talked about the drop boxes. You know we didn't go along with all of the creel crazy stuff, like Venezuela nobody's not responsible for january six, responsible actors, yeah responsible actors as compared to like o a n and new max and gateway pundit like revising the presidency, will be able to arrive at a gay or outflanking bright part, and so this is this kind of deaths. enrolled all that you that either the right has gotten into right in, and that is true. But what you would you John said earlier about how it's like the right wing media is feeding the vases anger of bases. Anger is feeding part you, not the politicians and there's nobody, this breaking! That cycle and end instead, what you have is this cortical centre right.

Like to extent that exist. Any more media outlets are just have either gotten sucked fully all the way in you know to being complicit in that you know or are just total kind of niche outliers in I went unlike the dispatch, podcast gotta love, those guys eyes and saw a dozen in us even has like you're calling me nation. Like I'm sorry, I don't, I don't mean it as I didn't mean as an insult but like yeah, like the idea that there are pete. You know that the term but on the right can survive? By being? You know, more more in the centre and more moderating interest isn't there and ends in us of that. That's in dragging the hope, this path america is brought by zip recruiter. Many of us super excited to travel the summer, but have you ever thought about all the people take a vacation truly great, like the hotel

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When the over two million people have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. Our lessons, ten percent off their first month at better health dot com, such pi essay- that is better h, e l, p, dot com, slash p s a. But you don't you brought up abortion, as issue electoral betimes mean right, Mrs ways overturned clearly Our states are passing most draconian anti abortion laws. They can possibly pass in many instances. There is talk of trying to pass federal abortion dan. There's reporting today and the new york times about women having miscarriages not getting life's even care when they need it, because there is a fear that it might be called quota court. An abortion create legal liability. Like literal fucking, nightmare horse in areas like my wife and I went through some tough things early, this year and the thought of going to hospital with her when she, having a miscarriage in being told. You know we gotta

pause on this and we see see where this goes before he could write like it makes me want to fucking murder somebody right, and so I guess my question is like: do you think that the broad the party is in ways where they might start to read some of these stories and see some of these laws and think whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa. This is and more extreme than we wanted. Or is all of this really just about owning the lips in telling people? What to do controlling women's bodies in and controlling people that are not in their in group. I dont what I don't see any of it Is that the that there is be a well well well and unfortunately, because what john was talking about earlier republicans might get the message in the mid terms that that they can act with impunity on this issue. You know I did they they're not going to suffer any political damage from at all of the above. We have a good mid term, so this

and then you run under twenty twenty four situation, where you know that there might be a competent. You know you see raw the scientists and abbot like trying to outdo each other right on these restrict. Bill. No, I mean, I think, that if, if we understand and what I wrote about in the front end as I think we created this monster and a lot of ways, but if the Driving motivation of the republican base is grievance is as ever, and this is one big difference from the rebellion base in the democratic base. like the turco. Greece have actual policy prescriptions that they would like to see implemented. At this point, the republican basic doesn't really gotten, it's a very nihilistic. It's like we want to see the left punished. We want to see these women in their purple hair punished. We want to see emigrants vanished in the media upon us in the pod, save america fuckers and the cox and write like me, the abbe

if any platform at the two thousand and twenty convention sort of set it all right there. From that point on there was, there was there's no policy drive and the driver said the ad is the driving factor like the question is: okay? Are there enough responsible? You know republicans in certain places to try to do about like. Where is the evidence of this right? I do think that you know. Could the Democrats cobbled together? you have to get ten right like ten republicans to sort of moderate this thing the Senate like who are that occur in the town, probably I if you get three maybe but that's why like is frustrating is it can be on the democratic sides, be like oh keep voting and keep focusing on elections. I thought that the only thing that republicans are going to understand is getting beaten. There's going to be no moral change of heart here, no, if politically they start losing if they like, if they don't have a great midterm or if they have a midterm, that's not as good as they thought, then. Maybe they. Ah, some of those positions that we took on abortion might be too extreme they're not

think about it, because now they suddenly had a change of heart, but if suddenly they start losing yeah, then maybe they'll think about it, which is why they have to be defeated and the only way, and unfortunately the system is biased in their favor correct, So you know that you have to really defeat. I'm an order in order to get a message is that we say stop as prime example: he loses sight election, but like wines as electoral college victory, so I guess I'll. This is where I think: how can this fight be taken into, and this is maybe we'll hit- will place never choppers can we can provide a constructive help to the to the commissioner is like completely giving up in a place like oh hi,

or you know in these iowa is the Senate seat. Right now, albert admiral, le franken admiral frank, he was a great character who was not in grasses below fifty in the des moines register poll. For the first time I keep getting hit up by friends in iowa, and I'm like want one well, the mood music is bad and inflation is high and I'm like what have I become people who negative, like I'm uk, left off TIM ryan. What's wrong with him roma. You know what great no right great timber- I am, has a fighting chance and rising and any re seven million more dollars a jedi. They have it's gonna be a tough year, but I think it and the Democrats might need to start thinking a little differently about this, and and this isn't voters or responsibilities is yours, old friends, responsibility of like how can we win some in some of these places an end and not just like sit around and complain about the tyranny of the minority, which is route which is legitimate. You know, but but are there different types of candidates that might be able to appeal, I think, to minds, run a good campaign.

And I'm interested in this admiral franken's campaign in iowa. I think that their different types of candidates, but I thought the best case scenario. Is a box, a box that our good friend Joe, the is is rather than being hike, F Joe h into hell like the best case here, It is probably like nine Joe mansions right who all have their own horrible nets, that you have to deal with in different ways. I'm sorry this is how to resolve the nightmare. This is a nightmare. Your eyes, like nine Joe mansions, would put the democrats in a much stronger position than zero. Well for those who have just started paying attention when, when trump became president like that used to be obama's majority, when majority, like ikebana, had sixty votes for three months, there were nine Joe mentions the. Why didn't you say the country in the uruguay round and they were when we were all really annoying, but they were all really annoying in all their own individual way ahead and we were able to kabul trade different things together till I get some shit down when you have is actually sometimes tartar with one dimension than with you know with sixty, and then you have a bunch of moderates, so

somehow johns aye, sir turns out to be a more pathetic individual than I thought you talked about. I there's a high bar. I know women, which I think I take is really high praise, because you had to go into this thing like there's nothing. You could tell me about Sean spicer. That would make me go ooh that we would have the way you talk about how his underlings at the aren't you he made his staff for the urgency, call every camp in and get sign, paraffin we are, then he put it up on the wall and he said lent by the courtesy of shines by sir. They try to start a tie. Business from the currency and makes it after this. Please tell us more about this, and I can I fell into sharon's visor chapter was really important because the work is is boot is dreary, I can go thrill and self flagellate myself and I go through all of the things that I miss that I should have seen and then I go through all of these really noxious horrible characters who use these ridiculous rationalizations for themselves, and I,

we have one character, that it even has like a glimmer of hope sounds like I feel, like everybody or comic relief, and I should like half way through the black it's like Doolittle Sean's, bizarre staff, but because he is a key this you have to admit nurse and democrats like this, not in the pathetic sense, but Sean's visor fits more indecision, yeah, yeah yeah for super nerd in college. called sean sphincter so by the school paper that hurts Roommate says when people entered the room, the one he would enter the room at a party people would kind of go spicer. I read that an old interview about sean spicer I can like from twenty years ago in the connecticut college magazine this is this is the journalism I was doing. I was like that hurts, and so he gets to DC and also near the rnc communications director and Jeff. Zucker his colonia and jig tampers colony, anna and envoy. Like now, I'm a man about town and I'm really kind of enjoying this little mini celebrity in the mix right, I'm in the mimics, and this like ner. You know I'm unlike a member in the sim

friends and Martin. I got the pool in the summer and I found the king of summer. All the call kids are coming over to my pool at heart. Out like this. Is spices and so you know be. A lot of people like well with an establishment. Republican guy go be trump's first press secretary, and I was like well why? Wouldn't he have to bring these two com, sean sphincter. Now he can survive on tv and free day, and you know all of his mom's friends. Are you know and saying hey look at your boy. He done good right, and so I said that like the nature of sean, and it was true even from the time that I worked there and I was I do have one little additional thing to the shared nice was eyes I have postscript to the book, so story where he put those than embrowns plaque, placard up in the air and sea. That said, gracious we donated by chance visor these mementoes that he made his staff work on this by the way, during the twenty twelve campaign that all this was happening. So

it's important work that we are now. I am using my hands. You guys got so so he has his little placards made up graciously donated by sean's, visor and dumb idea. I did find out that a fellow nerd revenge or who is upset that John, was clean up its attention, snuck into the open sea when naomi and took them down off the wall, and so that is why a question in the book was whatever happened to the graciously donated plaque at an end, I did find out the answer by reader I think it's interesting about the chance by sir archetype and why it's important to understand him is that we think of him buffoon, who is made fun of annexing now and couldn't you laugh at briefings but his anger and frustration at his mistreatment in them is ascension manifested in being. Rule to everyone around him and noting the rest of us down, and I do think It's actually worrisome to have that kind of character in charge, powerful role right because he's not

he's not a hapless idiot he's kind of a vindictive nasty guys doing better than this was unique to trump. and away like as something that was may unique is wrong word, but but particularly acute in trouble, among the different categories of characters. You know people are striving. People want to be in the room where it happened in our people that she drove them out their career up like that that happens across Cassiopeia. You know on industry's industries. This was the trump thing is like these guys, one and revenge you guys write like they want. He wanted revenge and you shouldn't republic that an obama thing yeah. They had a real, deep, deep, well of hatred for obama that I didn't quite realize like I I knew it was. I thought it was kind of performative. It was like you know, we're all doing this w w ii thing, but they really hated obama. They hated the the elites they hate that the medias certain democrats. They hate university,

a racial subtext to to all of this stuff, and so you know when you have these people that were that that gain this huge power inside washington and you get in this bunker. Everyone has, as a bunker mentality practice, is like the deepest bunker mentality ever right, like all of the these popular people hate us like. We were all nerds. We're rejects we're, deplore holes, we're habits and so we're gonna We can't be real evanna taken out on its revenge here and so on, and I think that the entire I drove so in an absurd as like the cruelties. Appoint like there was that there is one washington, for whom cruelty is the point. Like the Stephen miller, you know you're an actual anti immigrant bigots, but there was another group for whom the cruelty was the point where it was much more interpersonal, it was like. I hate you guys who who got, who get more retweets from famous people than me and clearly like vengeance and grievance is going to drive the entire twenty four races. That's the whole. That's withhold campaign and just a thought on that, like as we for me as well.

Conclude here I mean I think the book is really good and it's really worth reading and it is dark at times like there's a path, important part yen, where you're not trying to understand from a good friend too, is such a get seemingly kind hearted person that she travel to iraq for ten days to build homes fourg BT, kids and then worked for donald trump, like the most like, during those two things in your mind, is almost impossible, so is really worth reading too. understand those people, even if you don't come to get them, you sort of do a great job of categorizing explaining them, but also think it's worth reading just to talk about incentives because you are you He met a trump. You gave up your career, you dumped your party, you walked away from your business, you became at the trump and I think the net effect for you. What you got attacked by republicans and then also, I think, often attacked by presses for not being liberal enough for people who had worked for in the past. I do think one of the lessons from studying

fight against fascism from around the world is that their efforts at a successful are the ones where we build the broadest possible coalition to defeat the authoritarian. Fascist can that, and I do think that is going to be from Bernie and the socialists left to never tramples on the right it just something we have to keep him like. We should fight it out about policy. We should disagree and never put down our principles, but I think like there is a real looming threat than are always going to be able to have the policy. Five there's, no democracy. That's the I love the politicians fight when you know what, when when democracy is preserved, but right now it's sort of an absolutely I sort of say this as being somebody who's been and I'm not a victim here. I appreciate you, so that's why I don't like people can be mean to me on twitter. I can take it but, like even me, I feel this Why is this always? You want to be the one in the door that you're like. I deserve credit, ok like I've, four hilary or I will you know like I want like somebody give me a cookie. You know

and now like these assholes. Like I get this even so, I sure I sure, as Hell, get how people on the left get it right. Now these assholes, who want to come out of the administration and like write these books. You know I sometimes I get weak on twitter and that right and sometimes it deserve attack, especially if they're not gonna, opposed from between twenty four. That's me. yeah. That's that, but for the ones who are trying faith, and this is why the only hopeful character in the book is alyssa, fairer, who went on regions, communications director and he was bad when she took the job and justified it in all these myriad ways- and I decided to write about her because I thought bowed about her and I even hate tweet and she said that when I reset the interview she's like I dunno, if I should do this, I saw this tweet that isn't about me about you know about some interview I did when I came out, but like I came to find again, this is not a perfect person. None of us are perfect people, but this was a and that was seriously grappling with this and trying to do the right thing and and now, when there are allies in this for hate who are seriously

grappling with us in trying to do the right thing, but that might have problematic either pass or opinions and certain things trying to figure out ways that that turn to work together on this, as I do think the incentive part of this matters and- and I and I recognize more than anyone how hard that is, because I'm tempted sometimes to not that you know to not be a good faith actor, not not a good fit to not be a positive actor on that front, and we should be. I sometimes think if I, if I met me through my twitter feed, I would hate myself so oliver singer lesson for office, well, a lot of books written about Republicans and why they did what they did, but I think that use rip nail the psychology better than any book that I've read and it's it's comp humans are complicated, as you say, and I thank you, you know that really on the book. The book is why we did it a travelogue from the republican road to Hell. Everyone go read it to miller. Thank you for for during the pot. Everyone go go by. I write about why we did it thanks gents thing for being here

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