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I welcome the pod save america. I'm John forever andean pfeiffer on today show Joe Biden is about to get a primary opponent mark meadows, flips on donald trump and former d, o J prosecutor Andrew Weissmann joins to help us great and the weak, a bad legal lose for the criminal defendant, republican front runner, but first the new speaker of the house is allegedly a guy called, might Johnson name that seems intentionally difficult to. Google is made that went up so you go,

Well, MIKE Johnson, you don't know you don't know what you're getting over the last three weeks, republicans went from a kevin to a steve to a gym to a tom before reaching out, their comfort zone and settling on a mike the fifty one year old, louisiana congressmen who seems just fine with being everyone's fifth choice. Johnson, why unanimous support from his republican colleagues he's extreme enough for people like mad gates, who calls him mega mike mega mike, because macedon from scotland to but he's apparently anonymous enough for the eighteen republic, in Biden, districts who are betting, that their constituents won't find out. They voted for a speaker who talks

like this, you know we don't live in a democracy, because democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner of gates, not just majority rule is a constitutional republic. The founders set that up because they followed the biblical admonition on what a civil society is supposed to look like Ruby wade gave constitutional cover to the elective killing of unborn children in america period. You think the implications of that on the economy, where struggling here too, to cover the bases of so security and medical etiquette. In all the rest, if we had a elbows able bodied workers in the economy, we wouldn't be going. Sit down and toppling over like this, and you know the allegations about these voting machine, some of them being rick with a stop whereby the minion, but there's a lot of merit too, that the fix was it. You know I could get example after examine all these state.

so after he wins, or the speakership MIKE Johnson holds a press conference with all of his republican goon friends and reporter asks about his role in trying to overturn the twenty twenty election and here's how he and the house republicans responded how do elections, go away democracy boots, so the republicans have chosen as their highest ranking elected official in the country. Someone who's been called a key architect of trumps attempted coup, who wants to end medications

food security as we know it. Who wants a national abortion ban whose tried to criminalize gay marriage, gay sex and introduce a national version of floored is don't say, gay law that would apply to not just schools but any federal institutions, including public libraries, hospitals and the military dan. How is my johnson acceptable to the Biden district republicans, who thought that Jim Jordan was to extreme and how did he succeed, where skull and and fail felt? How many gonna leave here and suggest that these guys in really think this one through? What I think happened here is they works said he. Coolly far right, He is further to the right directly on these social issues in any of the other people who ran, he is, with the exception of Jim Jordan, more intimately involved in the coup than any of the people who

and he just as largely anonymous, he's less polarizing. I think he is moderate demeanor in the halls of congress, meaning he just said he doesn't want to run out without a suit called bullying. People like Jim Jordan, does he just seems like pretty anonymous guy, and I think we got to the point where these republicans were exhausted frustrated and He might Johnson was largely inoffensive, demosthenes republicans, who largely agree with most of what he says and donald trump was largely agnostic on him and a kind of appreciated his little money. your speech on the coup the johnson gave trump, and so they did they just went forward. Johnson had been the second care, the third care, the fourth Kennedy he would have failed, but because he was the fifth whenever it was exhausted. He snuck contra. I mean were now digging up all of the things that he said his positions, video of him speaking and this guy further to the re on lot of social issues than any republican

politician in america that I've heard about the last several years like just to just go through a list so people and main right now are currently grieving. The worst mass shooting in the states history in twenty sixteen johnson gave a sermon in which he said that in the sixtys we invented no fault divorce laws, the sexual revolution legalised abortion, radical feminism and all of them Why, decades later, we have mass shootings, he that mass shootings that you address great line from the the sixties and abortion and feminism to mass shootings. Today he hates no fault divorce law. So much that he's one of the leading proponents of something called covered marriage, which I do not know what that was until I had to look it up, because my johnson is the speaker of the house now covenant marriage would make divorce harder and it makes it harder.

women to leave bad marriages so makes it harder to get a divorce. I could you sign up on the front end for a covenant, marriage. He is called being gay, inherently unnatural and a dangerous lifestyle that could lead to legalise pedophilia and possibly even destroy the entire democratic system. He wrote about the evils. Sexual conduct outside marriage. That's both homosexual, an heterosexual sex. He said the boy. looting after keys from Louisiana said. The polluting after katrina happened because of too much gambling and not enough god. He thinks public school should teach. The bible is an accurate record of history and here's. My favorite. He tried to lobby this. for he was a legislator. He tried to lobby for tax breaks For noah's ark theme park in northern kentucky that would teach people that they were actually dinosaurs aboard. arc? Did you know that? And that is the dinosaurs about that

one way to sever the soil. That's a fact. That is what is that squares evolution with creationism. There were dinosaurs aboard the ark teacher to the children. They'll be less mass shootings case closed. That's my job That's my job. My johnson thinks the government should have no role in helping you have health care or have a security. I met, but a very highly intense, very involve role in your sex life, your marriage, healthcare decisions. He I heat. My charts represents everything about republicans that voters hate hate yeah. all right economic policies, my hence is social policies. Donald trump Wacky views on the election is MIKE Johnson, so in some ways thank you but given that he it connects them too, like glut. Let's, I would pick apart that we heard about right. We wait. He wants to force women to give birth.

so that those children can then be able bodied workers to help fund social dirty and medicare, but that is so fucking crazy. It is they was you that which he wants to got where she wants to cut our security medic this a second aligned to the presidency. Just in this a second The presidency second, in line every Republican voted for him. Every single one who was there voted for No one voted against a cheer damn enchanted MIKE Mike Mike, as it happens, which is movement that go like this. The first time many of them said his name. Dear John fetterman said just now, and you asked, but now he said, Magda loves a big johnson. I'd. So what happens now Johnson has opposed. Aid for ukraine in the past seems supportive. Aid for Israel really doesn't

spending money on americans. How do we get through the next few months without a government shutdown? Degree question John. it's possible we're making predictions here, but wait before he was actually won the nomination johnson and put forward a bit of a plan to their parliaments. It included a temporary bill, continue resolution. If you well too, Keep the governed fun at current levels. For some period of time could be forty five days could be a little bit longer so that the house can ass, the appropriations bills? They said they would pass, but mostly failed to pass. So it seems like maybe as he was like tat, we have been avoided, but then some some of the right wing members. I can't bought him others weren't sure reflecting resolution, but we need to get something for it, like some cuts in funding or some border policy, so where we are basically right back to where we were. It's possible the republicans Joe. Can I have some honeymoon period with these republicans, so it may be that he'll get a couple of opportunities

do something that may anger some people just like take it. So we could. temporary resolution. How we avoid a government shut down at some point seems quite hard to imagine given the dynamics of his caucus, and he still has the same sword of damocles with the motion to vacate hanging over him, that camera proceeded. Yeah. I mean the dynamics, haven't changed fundamental dynamics right, like you, see? It may be a see our passing for couple months but, like eventually be hard right, magic crew, it ousted mccarthy, in the first place, is gonna want their pound a flat, in terms of the policies they get in terms of budget cuts, so I dunno how we're going to. I don't know how we're going to get past that. How do you think Biden and the Democrats should handle a johnson led house is it? Is it possible for the president oh he's willing to work with republicans but also remind people that their a bunch of arsonists who just elected MIKE Johnson to lead them

It's awful suffering is a microcosm because it doesn't seem like he's a represent. I dont know here we only discovered his friends. I think we have. I think we have an eye The president should show he can work with republicans by working with the small handful of Senate republicans, you wanna keep the government on me open and provide funding for ukraine, Israel there. Not be some courtship of my chance. Word might transit comes over cookies and whisky. Just Have a meeting with all the members of the leadership white MIKE Johnson but you're never going to be able to work with him or this republican house. You cannot the only way you're going to get things done is by coming to an agreement with the senate, a bipartisan group in the senate and jamming the house. That is the only way it's going to happen, and I think that my johnson is a perfect punching bag for democrats were next. What's here, there's gonna be a race to define him to the country. We should win that raise. The president Democrats should be at the front of that race, I think it's really important democratic, show that there is an obstacle to progress on the things we care about that obstacle

this extreme mega house in my johnson is the operating in New roles are appertain to do that in a way that breaks through to some people. Yet I think the president can. Both right. I mean he already like congratulated and so we want to work with them, which is obviously what he has to do, but like he should be very firm in holding the house to the by partisan budget, deal that he struck with Kevin Mccarthy and label any deviates from that as extremism. That's actually gonna hurt people and, like you said he has Mitch Mcconnell some senate republicans who want that by partisan budget deal to go through and so, if Magda MIKE, and and his crew wanna, throwing all kinds of extra is in the government down, then Biden can go out there and talk about how those budget cuts are going to hurt people, how those policies are going to hurt people and who exactly is standing in the way and he's on the side of a bipartisan majority in washington and maga mike and his

greece and donald trump there, the extreme. So you know, if nothing else. Republican certainly gave Democrat some decent political adds over the last few weeks. Here's the sample of what republicans are saying about themselves. What tat way? What they're doing right now is walking the republicans off the plank. We don't deserve the majority, I have to say I'd swipe tat term. In congress I want most embarrassing things. I've seen and the dysfunction in the republican party right now is, it seems to be saying we want to lose. Are we might as well have a keen jeopardizing the Democrats, control the congress. This whole episode of fighting the house she'll, be at this moment a very poorly very they were now part of the dysfunction of washington. yes, there are now are now part of it. First the fuckin well oiled machine. It was before I mean that was too.

Well, our salt put that that super cut together in a couple minutes. Just think of the ads. Think of you being the thing with democratic, add makers could do with the last few weeks You are running a house campaign in a swing district. Would you use this material in your ads or giving its more effective to focus on the republican candidates vote for mega mike or Jim Jordan, which a lot of them did. Would you do would you do neither what you think I would take that super club. I would play it in a democratic party convention. I would have a great laugh with it and that it be done with it. I don't think it that, with You have to pick and you have to pick allowing right in this the environment you have to you need one story of demonstrating I think that story is extremism, not incompetence. yeah, and so- and I know that it is not a vote for mega mike that that's what we're doing that. That's the thing we're don't mega mike

mike. I mean us donald trump sand. That's would magazine and early on it we ve, never not listen to those to whom. So, let's do it that we know we know from polling that voters actually know the difference or see a difference between mega and public has to get I wouldn't, which I, by the way, would not have guessed, but apparently they I think it's a little more new ones. Then they voted in october. For this guy What is this? What essentially to most matters is like a high school class pressed, an election. It is that we take the positions of the speaker and we apply them to everyone. We use it as a way to tell a story about an extra. In congress. They will do these things like one who thinks we. We ve taught you before. You have to do as you have to keep abortion at the top of people's minds. If we want to have a chance to make twenty twenty four electrodes two, and one way to do. That is the fact that one of the most extreme anti abortion politicians in america is the most powerful elected republican and a country that I think we do.

use that as a why it's not that they voted for Jim Jordan or magic mike. It's that megabyte met magic. My commitment and what does the part of the story you didn't know, for backing up like that. He has probably introduce legislation to ban. That. No serious is that it is what mag what maga MIKE stands for as a way to tell a larger story about republican extremism? Yeah I mean look if I was like MIKE. Lawler is one of those republicans who has an abiding district right. If I was a Democrat running against MIKE Lawler I were dumb make sure that everyone in MIKE lollards district knows whom match No school mega might Johnson is What he said about gay people knows what he said about abortion know all of his views. I would make our make him famous in that district. I put pictures of the them together everywhere that I ran ass. I mean this is like with republicans do this with you know, Biden in the sky

I read Nancy Pelosi for a decade to Pelosi for dec yeah for years and years and years and look I don't. I think that, like a lot of times, republicans are just exaggerating the connection in this case all rob begins just voted for him, a speaker. They could attitudes that could worked with Democrats. They worked with a keen. Jeffreys do still have a republican speaker merely kept the government from shutting down. That's all! but we were asking: wasn't there records or even for more than just does wanted to fund the government, and I still had a republican speaker and like bring legislation to the floor that had a majority in the house. That's all nothing crazy, but instead of that, they chose MIKE Johnson. That's the path that the most powerful republican in the country wants to put

who in jail for having sex, yeah yeah and they eyed and dinosaurs were on the ark. That's what we're? Let's that's the important thing dinosaurs were on the ark need to make sure our kids learn that ok, that that that's where the house's that's it has, I do think it is like in twenty twenty four for Democrats who I take the house back like that. You know there's a lot of over exuberant son, a lot of different developments, this one. If I mean this is it's like he said he has all the worst politics, not just worse politics. Fur people like us who are labour walls and part of the Democrats, but for I can tell you most voters in this country. I do not think that sex should be criminalized, that gay marriage should be criminalized that all abortion should be criminalize, that there should be a don't say, gay law in every single state in the country that includes federally funded institutions, libraries, the military I mean this is.

fucking nuts, ten years now and you think you hate a social policies waste you check out his economic policies right, yeah, no kidding were you and he just voted for a cr that cut like a thirty per cent across the board cut which doesn't sound like much, except when you actually get into the programs that that would cut and what that would mean for people. So yeah he's nuts Ok before we had to break too quick housekeeping notes, we love carry him issues I own a quite a few pairs but love it likes them. So much the he demur. And it has very hoodlum relieving sneaker. It's a really will design. They come in pink and black. They have fun Ella, inspired designs with life of love it or leave it inspired details that fans will recognise so had to cricket outcome, slash store to grab a pair

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I'll come such p here to talk about donald trump, major legal troubles as andrew weissmann, a former federal prosecutor, MSNBC legal contributor, in hopes of the truly excellent podcast prosecuting donald trump from MSNBC andrew welcome back to the past I see here alright, thanks for doing this, there's so much to talk about this week regarding all donald trump, various legal challenges, the news has come and fastened furious. They wanted to go some of the big stories that all happens. You can help our listeners understand, what's really happening and what it means for the former presence legal predicaments, and, let's start with the report that abc news published on tuesday, saying that mark meadows, trumps last whitehouse, chief of staff, being granted immunity by special council jack smith and that he had met repeatedly with smith and test by front of a grand jury. Now, recognize that other outlets have yet to fully confirmed the story, but abc news is correct. What do you think that means about donald trump? Yes, it is

sort of instinct is this. This is the biggest story, but it's the one that police, confirmed because everything else would you know that it's happening in court, so we know a lot not ever but we know a lot about what's happening to one of the peace if corroboration here, which is interesting, is his as meadows council? Basically You two statement saying this is essential. largely which dead polly no in my world impelling in your world is basically confirmation. And yes, you know it's just means they got the number of times he met with smith raw. So funny you said that that's ratio, the charity, that's exactly what I was thinking get sick when he said that he met with smith Three times it was four times than when he said it was in their injury once it was twice you I mean, took its interest. It was just notable that it wasn't a flat denial. So what

this mean so, if mark matters, the chief of staff to the former, President of the united states was great, immunity and has now gone and spoken to jack Psmith. Andorra grand jury could not be larger and the reason is you just as a prosecutor you're not going to grant immunity to somebody unless you have been given a very detailed proffer by the attorney for that san and often even sort of informal meeting called a proper session with the person so essentially you're not buying a pig in a poke as we like to say here in new york, and so it is too big. yelled to decide to immunize somebody who could have their own significant exposure, and that means that you have to have made the

evaluation that you could not otherwise prosecute them and that they have information that so significant about people who you think are more culpable and in this situation that's one person which is the right there's only one person and died in this case as donald trump. So this is not something that could affect some other person he's embassy telling them something if it this is ultra yet say exactly Emily. Curtis travel, yeah, epic, it could affect somebody else, but it's not gonna only effect that person the person they have run, giving something up on the president. That's where you know, reporting has various pieces of information attributed to mark matters. That's worth near. The reporting could be wrong. presumably mark meadows will join and a litany of people who told the former president after the election of that he lost,

and so you don't wait there already are just you know a boat load of people like that by tapping the chief of staff on board with set. Having said the same thing would be useful to speak, ere. He will be cross examined with the statements from his book where, It is all in the EU then the election, a yoke he joins. The republicans who we all saw denigrating a rapporteur for I ve been asking the question about that just yesterday, but this is a huge development, if true and you know, in terms of dominoes falling, I mean this is the biggest domino and the chief of staff. Has you know, there's no one in sort of closer that and that sort of closer body. Man too, that the present united states that the chief of staff so could be huge.

I want to move to fulton county now where, over the course of the last week we seem three people who have worked in and around donald trump legal team, sidney, pow cats, chest bro, angina, Alice, plead guilty and whence it pal and jasper au pair, guilty. There is a lot of tramples on twitter. We got armies the turbine for tromp you in Pakistan, where mccord had some passion for why that may not me when it thinks it means- and I'm gonna, get a journalists and a second but help but what happened there, and why are you a little more cautious than all the other all the non lawyers on twitter nor a puppet champion bottles right now? Yet so it first my my kind of starkey line, which is like a tarred to keep track of the number of trump lawyers. Who are going to be witnesses against him, many of whom have now admitted their criminality and complicity in in

federal schemes, eminence, which you know I'm a lawyer. I it's just unbelievable to me that that they would purchasing, in this. That's that's, obviously we're not immune from being criminals, but it's it is fairly shocking to It's your question directly with sitting pal and why, kenneth hasbro, especially when we end up looking at the language that was used for the agreement with China Alice, they did not agree to quote fully cooperate. quote language that is in the china Alice agreement. They did not agree to give repeated. statements to the georgia prosecutors. I did not agree that they would meet in into be interviewed repeatedly by georgia prosecutors. What they did agree to is testify truthfully, if called at a trial of any of the co defendants will die, you and I have an obligation to testify truthfully if work

to the stand to because we will be sworn under oath and we have to tell the truth that difference is obviously there are green. It is on If they were to be found to say something, but we don't really know that their fully cooperating and and Maybe it helps to know what's going on in the back of my head, when I was a prosecutor, when you have a cooperating witness, lets a dance you were there. The witness before we signed you up, I would be meeting with you for days. Not weeks to debrief you about everything. You knew to be comfortable that you have been telling the truth to go over relevant documents and to to be sure. Ok, we could use you because we ve debriefing everything you know and we're competent you're telling the truth. Then would sign you up as a cooperating witness Just doesn't seem to be what how and here at war the nature of the agreement that was reached between chessboard power.

that's not to say that they may not ultimately be good, but I think it's just at the very least premature to describe them as cooperating This is in the way that you would for should have a typical that all cooperate her were. I you think, with respect to general ass before and why, if that is the case, why would funny willis cut these deals with them if it's not gonna. If it's not going to deliver. What we hope it might deliver is one that could the other way I mean it could be that you do not agree to a non jail time plea disposition because they have given you something important. So to be clear to me, that is what is happening, but we do no that an I'm here. I just want to jump to that yet, but I can give you couple reasons why you might do this one. You avoid a five month too. I'll. Where you'd do you lay out all the evidence to people who, you think are more culpable the poorest?

you guys. Second or third has a real advantage. So if keeping your eye and the prize. You think donald trump is your main person here, avoiding laying at all that proof is a good thing to you, avoid the risk even I think you have a really strong case, there's always the risk of either an acquittal or a hung jury. It only takes one juror to have a hung, jury and just to be clear, If there was a hungary here, I personally think the elite some would be over in many ways, because that will certainly be touted by Donald and as allies as a huge loss of hungary is typically viewed as a loss to the government in a wind to the defence so avoid, all of those risks Tom and you have as sure as shit conviction, There is the the set. save momentum cause. If you do look at should have power all at once.

Led to misdemeanours. But then you had chaz bow. He pledged to a felony than europe, Jenna Alice and she played to a felony? But she had a much more fulsome cooperation parisian too even though they are all no jail time. You do get the sense of at least it is escalating. It's going in the right direction. It's not not getting weaker over time. It is the the deals are getting stronger for the government. Does it put pray sure on potentially other people to cut deals they feel like they could be the last one that you don't wanna be the last one standing absolutely can get a deal absolutely, and you know again, I de, will turn to Jan Alice. But if you look at the pressure JANET Alice. I viewed that plea as like a heat seeking miss all directed at Rudy giuliani. I mean she led to aiding and abetting, and it was too difficult to co defendants, one of whom was ready, said That was just direct aim, and that is how you do these cases, which is funny willis, had a gun

strategy has a great strategy of indicting big and when you indict big, you sort of try to roll up and have this domino effect. In a sense, of momentum and to have defendants worried about the proof, get. stronger and the deal's getting worse. So these an idea of the you know come in now and strike the best deal. You can. Let's get a general because, as you point out, she has a different agreement, a stronger agreement. So how is indifferent different and what is the real Do you think the reason she took that deal was because of the pressure of these previous ones, or is there a potentially a stronger case against her or a stiffer penalty that she's trying to avoid? Let me to steal that, but agreements different colombia athletes to to is similar in that she pleased to a felony like chess brow search. You know it's different. Could then sidney powell who pledged to misdemeanours She, though, agreed to quote fully cooperate unquote

agreed to meet and be prepared by and give interviews repeatedly to the georgia prosecutors She I, each of the two key things and Obviously she also has to testify truthfully at a trial, but she'll be have been fully prepared, and she also has agreed to give false statements should not just that one statement but to give repeated ones if necessary, and should she that looks so much like what. If a federal cooperation group looks like so there's. This is no way for my. You know cynical or what I would say is said this little worried about the other is yet to be sceptical. Yeah exactly- and this is no way to be sceptical about her- I mean you knew cooperate- is can sometimes not turn out, but there is no question that at this point she is,

she has signed on to be a full cooperate her. She did give a statement to the court which, in it, which is much more typical federal court and state court. It's not necessary caution. There was something unusual about her statement, which your statement, basically, what kind of sad, I made a mistake as opposed to. I did something intentionally. She did say. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't represented the farmer president well, that might all be true and well, but that's actually not the standard for a criminal case. A criminal case you have to eat is not by mistake. You have to do something intentionally or it's not a crime at all, so shelves didn't say that's all she dared is so it's not would inconsistent, but it certainly does. suggest day, complete acceptance, responsibility by her in her statement. But if she did,

cry and she seemed we hope. Upsetting morse followed, but that all that remains to be seen. She did it not clear. Just raiment she is somebody who people had talked about being one of the more likely peoples to plead and to resolve because she had been talking about, should not should really divorcing herself the sort of mega move men. She did have this proceeding against her in connection with her bar licence say there was some sense that she whatever reason, either christie had a pang of conscience or she just realized yeah. She as we like to say when I was a prosecutor, she was sorry she got caught I don't know which of the two it is, but either she does seem to be doing the right thing at this point, edward as as

we used to say she's now on team america or the other Just to give you as many products aerial phrases she's on the other side is sure to be on the other side of the v, meaning in the united states is verses. Two thousand she wants to be on the left side, not the rights of all of these folks. thought to be involved in or even unindicted cook and spears, and the federal generally six case did the did there quite various. It is a cooperation deals. Are their pleading guilty in that foreign canna case affect how they could participate or could be compelled participate in it? in the federal case like can they if they require, if they require to testify truthfully, is that only count for full the county. Can they plead the fifth informed county? Can they play the fifth if they were to wire plead the fifth Federal does that affect our probation deal or, it just. How does that all interact yeah? So that is just the perfect question, because it

it's not usual to have somebody defend into is charged in both federal and state court, but from time to time it happens, and the most unusual thing, whether you ask you know: I've been a prosecutor, anna defence lawyer, if you ask any, prosecutor, defence lawyer, what is the most unusual thing that they ve seen in connection with pouch hasbro and Alice. It's there isn't what called a global deal. The idea that you would just have an agreement with wonder, section when you know your facing liability at another makes no sense this is why so china alice, let's say, there's a trial and she is required by her agreement to testify and she's required by her agreement and stay courted testified truthfully, so she on the stand in georgia, and she testifies, and she said

things that implicates her in crimes that could be charged federally. Not just this. Crimes that she has a deal on every that she says all of this statements are admissions that can be used by federal prosecutors. So, let's ajax, methinks that, deal with sidney. Pow is rageous. That she's way to culpable to have a misdemeanor offence and lets us, she makes that judgment well. she now testifies. Her testing it is something that can be used against her if she takes the fifth and state court I shall see, won't hurt herself in terms of making statements that could be used in the federal case, but she will be in breach of her agreement, because her agreement is that she will testify truthfully. That's that's what the georgia prosecutors bought

with this deal, which was her truthful testimony at any trial of any co defendant. So there somewhere in a jam. I've. If that were to happen now, the only thing I could think have his term suitable why this is happening. Is that one there is no cure, nation at the prosecutors level and to its not it doesn't. Look like thee state cases are gonna happen any time soon and in other words, that there was a trial that was scheduled the end of october, with power and chaz brow, that's now off. There is no other scheduled date. So this Conundrum of you do when the trial comes, and you have to testify. Truthfully is one that the can picked very far down the road and if you are gambling you may think well, if Donald trump orange,

ally wins the presidency. I don't have to worry about that federal cases anyway, cause they're they're, going away there. There isn't going down from cases are going away any case against sitting pow or kenneth chaz brow are going away. So have to worry about this conundrum, because the justice department will being control of people who don't want to see that happen. I worked on the mother investigation. I am very aware of donald trump bit pardoned every single person who we indicted and convicted, except the people who cooperated so Michael Callin and rick gates they didn't get pardons. everybody else down to alexander's, one, a name that not sure rings eddie bells to you, but it'd be basically. You know this was the den incident just said, like I'm going to eradicate all of us everyone. Yet, let's

move quickly to the criminal free trial? I know you ve been in attendance multiple times the one it therein manhattan yesterday on Wednesday was quite a scene where Donald trump testified and then immediately find ten thousand dollars than stormed out of court. You know that now down troops have been fined. Fifteen thousand out, I know you do like the term gag order is only one or two points are my now outside if I'd ever beat. Yes, I know: is that technically a gag order, but he's in there fifty thousand dollars for saying things that court has told him not to say fifty now, even if Donald trumps really really and faces assets, as the court has found of doing fitting out thousands who make a lot of money to him What was your reaction to what happened yesterday in what tools, as the court have to actually make him adhere to the rules are trying to set in place so odyssey greater, finds too You can say that any

I social purse, your social media posts have to be reviewed by council three. You can say you can't do any social or any other media paris that are in any way related to the case are the cases that that your on they have to just be political speech. As I like to say, you can run for president and actually not truck justice? It's it's an editor. I know I'm going out of ammo yup. Yes, and obviously, in the room is easy. Go to jail and our house arrest. I mean there are restrictions on his liberty that you can have. I am very worried that the message of the ten thousand dollars is going to be counterproductive, because I think Donald trump extremely savvy about, should have figuring out power dynamic. and ends

instead of seeing what judges were her willing to do and not willing to do just remember here, the judge found that he directly I laid the order that he was referring to his law clerk heat that he'd law. I'd on the stand where he had ashore hearing about it. So he also found that under oath, yes, appoint yes and said in our report, michael cow and which made no sense in that's what the judge found missing totally logical to me that that's what he would say too. I think that our understanding that donald trump is sort of egging, the judge on any sort of wants to play the victim, but I feel like you, I just Nothing in my opinion. I think it was a strong enough sanction if you're, really worried, as the judge acting correctly is, is

it about violence because of down the shrimps words in mid again, just to be clear, this is not just a first time restriction for no reason. This is because it just go back to erie six. This is the concern about words, leading to violent actions, last question for you as we look at this. Scope of all of these trials trigger the kremlin. once why do you think the It's all right now that we will have a resolution in one of them. I guess most likely the january six federal trial, as relates to trot before the election, extremely good. I think they give. You think we well. Yes, I think the march fourth trial, if it it's up to judge, check it march for a trial. As she has said, I'm not saying it Then she hasn't said that trials going forward

when they were arguing the gag order. I've been beaten to say that thou thyself idea that she has said that cases going forward. The only thing that could curtail it is this essential immunity motion that down trouble made at nothing. It's a terribly strong motion, but it is one that could go to the supreme court. So if it does that there could be a delay in the trial, because this supreme court may stay case. While it decides at issue, I think that's the biggest wild card, but I think absent that I think that case is going to go to trial, and there will be a resolution before the general election? I'm I'm. The carpet. Obviously, in george, I don't think that's the case of dumping to case in new york. There will be an argument I think its november fur. in the florida case about the trial date and the schedule there. I think that

Well that one's a little harder to tell just, because I'm not as confident that that judges as committed to the trial date and odyssey the longer the longer you weigh on that. You really are gonna start running up in two significant is is in terms of how to schedule it. But I think that's why the march state with that one caveat, I think, is in stone, but is great here Thank you. So much for joining us. Everyone check out prosecuting down forms. An excellent pack has to follow all the ins and outs of travel, shrubs, various legal challenges in cases. Thank you so much thanks Patsy amerika is brought about the greens? The shredded? Let us in a double double in the fruit filling in adona are awesome, but they don't count as one of the five reckoning daily servings of fruits and vegetables. We're not maggie about your diet, we don't is a healthy either, but

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They may not be wrong. New polling from one of the big providing super packs surveyed, three thousand voters in michigan pennsylvania and was content a thousand voters in each state. That's big sample and found that If the elections were held today, Joe Biden, Donald trump would be tied at fifty percent. Exactly fifty percent in a two candidate race across those three swing states. They also doug into a group of up for grabs voters in those states who have a negative opinion of both Biden, an trump these are these, so called double haters, and this pole found that trump is slightly ahead with that group by three points. Fifty one to forty, eight, let's start with the top line number a tide race in these three battleground states is actually as good or better

ireland than some of his recent national poles, and that has been a trend. I've noticed in some of these state poles recently. Why do you think that is what's going on there? Just have you understand why it's better is that that the country as a whole is more democratic than the battleground states, which is why Biden can win the popular vote by several points and then win. Michigan puts me in wisconsin georgia, arizona by. Points are two points, and so the opposite is happening, trump's actually leading in the national polls. Something Biden went in the entire time in two thousand and twenty, but Biden is doing a few points better. and about our growth is. I think the reason for that is that The race is more engaged in those states. Then it is in the rest of the country. Like I've said this. We ve done guess. I think a lot of people have not yet fully comprehend the fact that donald trump is going to be we can now many in front of the germans. We had ever gonna nominees. They just that it that they have not a of attention of politics for couple years now and the battleground states where there was

tens of millions of dollars of advertising spent in twenty twenty two that their detailed as more dialed into what the races gonna look like, and we saw this dynamic democrats did better in this. it's where the races were more engaged. I e those paragraphs as italy. Send it governs races? Then and other non competitive states like california, new york or more republican states like in the south. Yeah, so we're gonna be hearing a lot about the double haters over the next year. Hilary lost them in twenty two dean Biden, one them and twenty twenty and now, at least in this pole Biden, is losing the by a few points. But statistically probably tide who are these voters what we know about them and where do you think I can do at least in this Paul they are a little more republic in the overall electorate. a little more male than the overall electorate and their more college educated than the overall acted so interesting. the fact that trumpeted so overwhelmingly well with these connachar doubled.

This is why something? No one expects this assumption. Why is going into the election? Twenty? Sixteen that there were hilary and trumpet basis? with them that usually how that has worked in the past, although there either in a race with such a large pool of double haters I did better amongst them and if they are tied in this, the unite the country. The number the super back to this point points out that this trot doing at this level. With these, these voters means he'd win the very close battleground states. Is there a sort of assumption by not very much but enough because they were so, last time. These people are not uniform in who they are or what they think and you're gonna have to do two things sort of somewhat simultaneously and it's gonna be a little bit targeted pitting of various groups in here part of his you have simply strengthened by right. Joe Biden is underperforming across the board with a whole bunch of groups of voters, people on issues on character traits emory, have to remind people of not just like sort of ways accomplish,

two years- and I think particular strength or cause- I think one thing is happening- is the world seems incredibly chaotic biden, seems old, into some voters and ethnic unfairly, so weak and so you're gonna have to demonstrate strength here, then we have to remind people what a fucking nut job trumpets and how dangerous he is and how in company he can be an how chaotic he can, because people are not paying attention to that. They are They have not seen trumps speak. They dont these voters, don't watch fox news there not consuming break arthur. Not If America, there are just not in countering frankly Biden or trop, and so there hearing some stuff think don't seem brave right now by instead they be great and they maybe he's too old and trumpeters. They haven't really thought about at all. They probably know he's involved some crimes. Maybe they don't care about that. That much, They think back to the fact that economy seems pretty damn good before the pandemic started and doesn't feel as good now, and so I think part of just a lot for life

We're just gonna have to stick trumps craziness in their face for next year and a half make them focus on the danes, of trump and put that, in contrast to a little bit too strengthened by timber, to make him a better vehicle for their concern about europe. and this is why the liberal laments that you hear a lot online, that we heard a lot in twenty sixteen and I think it was more warranted in twenty. Sixteen of like do not platform trump stop platforming trump. No, no do platform trump. We need more people in this country to be reminded of what he's like, because when they get that reminder they do not like him. They vote together again. This is maggie candidates. In the mid terms, that lost is because the race was engaged in these states and those voters were shown. A lot of ads and a lot of like a

denying mega extremism shit and they voted. The other white trump campaigned in those states was on their local ngos right now. The most americans are not seeing donald trump, many of them Not, but you hear this focus groups all the time, a lot of people, people who voted for, Biden and twenty and maybe are disenchanted with the way things are going right. Now they think trump's going to be in prison, not on the ballot. yeah, and some of them think Biden's or thing thing binds not going to run. It is right, there's a lot of people yet build. A lot of people would be very surprised to learn that the most likely match. Is Biden and trump and it's like a nine percent likelihood I know and a lot of people is uneven, a lot of this, we will think that both of em are gonna, be than I mean a lot of rebuilding that neither of them are got through. You'd have happily the party. I found this section pretty in the in the memo about these double haters says despite being more aligned with republican values, they express fear about trump and about the future of american democracy. There hesitancy toward trump is rooted in various

aspects such as his role in leading a coup, multiple indictments and praise for the chinese dictator So one thing that worries me about this through people is the existence of no labels, because it feels like these are exactly the kind of voters who would support a no. Both candidate, they are more republican. They are more male. They are maybe a little more centrist. They dont like trump, because he's a you tried to commit the coup. They don't maybe wanna convicted for and but they are republican, they have republican viewpoints, and so, if you give them a larry hoag in a john huntsmen. to land on. You could see them, but choosing that that candidate, which really where's me, I mean there was some no labels pulling that leaked out via political play, but this week, which no labels tested Biden trump head to head Biden from head to head with a no labels. Can it with a democrat like a Joe mansion or here since the generic democratic thinking there have I got There are similar, but take it and a no labels candidacy, whether republicans uptake and the republican one significantly opera form the democratic one. It was

it was much more devastating to bind the chances, and this is These are many cases republicans you dont, like tromp, many of them bit the bullet and voted for Biden in twenty twenty and are trying to figure out what to do this time they haven't, got all my back to trump but the nest, with Biden as of yet either yeah and again, like, like you, said, there's different groups of double haters right and this sample. Just you know in the statistics that you read is just like the majority give them or this or that they they tend to be disproportionately male republican, but there's probably also a group that about of less college educated voters who who are more in tune with the economy and who are struggling about costs more there's. Probably some progress the voters and younger voters who don't like Biden and trump, because they think neither are progressive and are afraid and they're thinking about a cornell wester or whatever else or maybe not voting at all. So there are different groups of these, but I think the group that is tend to be

republican more male and cares more about democracy and trumps indictments. These are more of the centres, Republicans That I think this is like that you know who the like the lincoln project is going after and like the republican it concerns long wells were more more effect. we might well republican, accountable, the project and the bulwark her like that. I think that those voters- and am I you know, I really worry about that, and I made it is if, as you said, it there's when Donald trump and Joe Biden both have a poor ratings that our round forty percent, and are bleeding a significant part of their own party and binds actually bleeding more of his own party you're, going to end up with a wide swath of voters who fit that category. You need strategies for the specific strategies for the different elements of it. Well in case any of you were losing sleep over Joe Biden's reelection. Don't worry, dean Philips is here to save the the mai Jonathan, elaborate rats but it is that you might be wondering whose dean phillips

the guy they just like good speaker, know that my jonathan dean fellow is the might johnson of running against Joe Biden, medical primary, he's a little known, congressmen lookin for a big promotion. My johnson got his now. Dean philips is has the fifty four year old. Three too, Minnesota Democrat will be, announcing his presidential campaign in new Hampshire on Friday? That is the last day get on the ballot in that state. There is already a dean philips for president bus, spotted and ohio this week. What do you think in how scared should Joe Biden be of dean, phillips a hard question answer John. There is clearly in all the pulling a significant number of Democrats who would be very open to an alternative to Joe by- and I think, even with that case, if any significant damage I like gretchen, whitmer or josh shapiro or Raphael warnock or Gavin newsom were to run. They would be a significant underdog to the incumbent democratic president. States develops. Phillips be what is the longest long shots for

No one knows who he is, but all he is a centrist multi millionaire congressmen who is doesn't to me at least at this point, and will see what he says on the campaign to rub. It does not seem to me to be a likely vessel for whenever anti biden sentiment sets out there in the party. Rather, they think it's that incite clarity. More electable than Biden has an obvious light. next you know generational candidate calvin acceleration, if you're on a dissatisfied with Biden, because he's not left in offering a progressive enough develops your guy, it just is not clear who went ich dean philip scratches, was maybe sort story of his life. I guess What does that mean on others? may I wherein he also getting. He has a primary challenge now, partly because he's he's done this in the in his house race. So look it's it's also. He fears Few obstacles here he if you just a few few other obstacles, sorry he's here

too late for nevada qualifying nevada that bad deadline is passed. So it's not gonna need delegates out of about he's not going any delegate's out of new Hampshire, because there are no delegates, their owner, delegate's delegates, new Hampshire, because Dnc rules, because south carolina is going first and new Hampshire, still, that they want to go first, so they're gonna strip them of the delegates so by not competing in new Hampshire. Now, of course, dean phillips could win new Hampshire, partly because Biden's not competing in there. I think they're just trying to do a write in campaign for Biden there is he he decided not to be on the ballot. I meant to ask us before we started recording, but his Joe Biden decided not to yell it. I believe so, yes yeah, because I think that they said that that's the I think the campaign said know that we're not going to be on the ballot, because that's the rules and we would like to compete in new Hampshire, but the democratic party rules have said that you know they've made a decision itself. Let's go first and that we can't compete in new Hampshire, so develops a sort of just going around that, and probably I guess, it's gonna try to embarrassed or by new hams

but in sure, but Marianne williamson, I guess the only other who I soon was on the ballot in new Hampshire yeah, but, like you, I know you like dean, philips, is probably someone who, if they knew him, maybe those double haider voters we were just talking about would like, but again this is a democratic primary. and you re like I'm. A multi millionaire, moderate unknown in a democratic primary is some is not maybe that's the best fit the fifth rick method for them, I don't know, I just think, while a lot of democratic voters will tell pollsters that they would like option, then by it is just worth noting which remind ourselves that for me, most of this year, Joe Biden providing among Democrats has been I feel the same or a point or two higher than donald trump's approval rating among republicans and donald trump, is walking away with that primary. So with this idea, that Biden is somehow extremely vulnerable to any

let alone dean. Philips has not yet born out the long. It's really hard to beat someone who has a seventy seven. Seventy eight seventy nine percent of providing among the people who are going to decide the election, how You handle the dean phillips candidacy. If you're in the Biden campaign day in the white house was ass. They put out a statement that mentioning how he is almost completely supportive. Abiden almost because is obviously running against him, but he His like voted with by nearly a hundred percent of the time, so I think they are trying to say well. He has support with the president. Up until now he's a pizza has all the president's positions in support of the president, and we don't know why he's running basically seems to be the message. What do you think about that? That's fine, let's see sure. I think largely a written statement delivered in response reporter queries is not like a sign of some future date, the calculation on their part. My guess is. The plan is to largely ignore him. We should say this dean phillips has every right to run. We said

throughout the air. As everyone who say do you know the deal he's rigging. The primary wires amer running are the always was. If someone wants to run that's their there, they ve that they have the opportunity, do it. They think they can make it to where they should do. It develops has chosen that path. He's a longshot, but if you want to do what he should do it and there should be any effort to prevent it, from making his case the voters the white ass in so doing the right thing. Well, so speaking, a video, they ve already formally indoors Biden, announced that they won't be holding any primary debates. That's when it was just Biden marian williamson, an hour of K, junior, whose now running dependent do using the dance he can get away with not holding any debates now that dean Philips is enter. The rest, I assume they're, not gonna, hold any debates and I assume they're going to get away with it. I'm not sure I know there's what is the public pressure from the reason,

it wasn't it issue with very annoyance and albertini acts the demon exactly where, if firstly, it. For some reason our assessment is incorrect, which is probably likely at this point. Given our recent track record, and you ve got in. There is a massive political movement around envelops much as there was around how redeem to cite you're you're very dated reference there and back a change, but as of right now I just didn't see, is intertwined directly in the button campaign they been operating for a year is if there would be no true primary He felt it legitimate person. He has a democratic member of congress who was democratic leadership until he resigned their position to the council. This presidential race, and so not the same thing as marian williamson or some like our future was running for the democratic domination under the encouragement and advice of people. Like you, ve, been in by I don't see that that is gonna be enough to force the Dnc to change their approach.

if he is our get real support for that kid. That could change, but as of right now, I think it is all head in the same direction, which is pressing for a binding trump introduction, although I wonder yeah, if he if he starts to get real support or he starts to get fake support, and by that I mean people are going to look at this as an opportunity to cause trouble and the steve Bannon. The people on the right, the airline, must the tec brows, like lefty, progressives, Coronel, west pete. You know like you can see a number of people being like. Why is the Dnc rigging the primary now? This is a cause Women from Minnesota, even if they don't actually lighting felt cookies in four minnesota and Joe Biden refusing to debate him. Why Joe Biden debate him and then he meant that much. The job I'm afraid of debating donald trump and wisely afraid debates or I could see a little eyes- could see people causing trot Oh yeah, for sure this is going to be in this. Is that shit? The ultimate that question that develops a gasket have to ask himself is good in the long odds, excess. How much

What he says in dies can end up being weapon ized against Joe Biden to a fact that race on the margins like as it has a right to do it. He should run the race he wants to run. He should give it a shot. He should follow all the rules. Why bow are getting on the ballot and then making his case, but the people who are applauding dean, phillips entry in this race are going to be the people who wanted to feature Biden in november, who worked for republicans, are on fox news, etc. so you don't think we will see Joe Biden, dean, philips marian williamson debate. I are we hosting one. But he had no idea what yap, where our doors always because we are not go up I would be so? I would be surprised to see that you are now that's what I was a member J predictions, but I would be surprised. I think it is a good time. Or for Joe Biden. We don't have of first term president's the first babe, it's always pretty tricky. We lived through that with brok obama

didn't do too well against our friend mitt romney, and that first debate may be this'll, be good practice for Joe Biden to take on too philips unmarried williams. Your friend taken they get my friend Mary, won't you have. Your friend met, rational or friend, mitt romney home for me around this, is isolating. Let's go. You met my friend marian volumes and why I interviewed her. Yes, this year's stress you keep in mind, I have a dream: marian williamson art, so dean, phil It's not a problem, but we are sponsoring a primary debate just to japan. Squared away my johnson all If you want to come on great, we outward opening up the path, it murder all kinds of people, I agree. We can that's our schoeffer today. What tell everyone we're gonna be an where we go. We're going can be Louisville saturday night we are for show. But you can still get tickets to that show if you're going to be in Louisville, I just go to a cricket. Dot com find some tickets, there were going to be in evil and sunday night

and you're gonna hear both of those pods next week, so lotta, podcasting and and then I guess I'll see you in louisville or indianapolis that we're fine, I'm going to measure to Louisville good for you, Definitely not straight either surf several legs to that flight, but I wave my actually built land on a plane in Louisville. This is one of the more challenging trips or just whittle are five and a half or drive from louisville to cleveland. That's can be. Fun, cannot wait for the discussion over where we're going to stop for lunch. That is going to be, we've got gotta start. Then we get in the car, I love it's already got one in mind, I'm sure. Alright, everyone have a great weekend and we'll talk to you soon. Bye, bye, everyone, pod, save america, is a crooked media production or producers or olivia martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producer is Farah safari writing support from halle kiefer reach. Ireland is our executive producer. The show is mixed in, It is by andrew chadwick. Jordan. Canter is our sound engineer, with audio support from cairo segment and charlotte landed,

Madeline herrings is our head of news and programming met to growth. Is our head of production? Andy Taft is our executive assistant thanks to our digital tee, Eliza cone, Hayley jones, MIA kalman david tolls, hero pavlov eve and molly labelling subscribe deposit america on youtube to catch full episodes and extra video content find us at you to death. Come slash at pod, save america. Finally, you can join our friends. The pod subscription community for ad free episodes, exclusive content in a great discussion on discord, plus its a great way to get involved. With vote. Save america sign up at crooked out. slash friends, calling all entrepreneurs and business owners justifies the global commerce platform that helps. You sell your products and services at every stage of your growth from the Your online shops age to the first real live store stage and beyond shop of eyes there to help. You do you think, of I has the internet's best converting check out fifteen, but

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