The presenting Sponsor POD save America is Ziprecruiter. Friends of the pod find a great candidate. Be like well trying to find a needle in a haystack. That well was because John was trying to think of what to say it was. It was pause Yeah sure you can post your job to some job word, but then all you can do is hope. The right person comes along. That's what you should try Super Carter supervisor doesn't depends its finding you find them for you. It's powerful technology benefits job seekers who best for your needs and then actively invite them to apply Ziprecruiter even has a complete suite of tools like customizable screening questions. That makes it easy to filter review and rate your applicants, as an austrian tools at Stephen Miller's wedding party, for something, as I saw, Instagram and being engaged in Europe. Therefore, work shopping. Those good I'll, be funds, happiness than are going to be public stages, workshops affair, so

Their companies might deliver a lot of hay zipper who defines what you're Looking for the needle in the haystack, the procurator dotcom such cricket, and if you go to zip recruited I come such cricket today tries if recruiter for free. We get credit for sending once again skip the hay and go to super grid and dot com. Cricket Welcome to POD save America, I'm Jon Favreau today's pod, the first day of public impeachment hearings did not go very well for the president, we're going to talk all about it with our guest former acting us, solicitor General Neal Katyal. The author

Brand new book on impeachment were also gonna talk about how the schedule for an appeasement trial in the Senate could affect the members were running for president. And about the news that yet another Democrats devolve Patrick is making a late entry into the twenty twenty primary, also check out pod save the world this week or Tommy talk about Bolivia and President EVA Morale his downfall and whether it was a popular uprising or military coup. They also cover turkish president air ones, decision to briefly pause his ethnic cleansing of the Kurds to visit his friend Donald Trump in Washington. Then they talk to former australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, China and why he believes Rupert Murdoch is a cancer on american politics. You know Kevin Road was in the office and every once in a while. Someone comes into play, media and I'm like. What are you doing here like you know, ignored Mitchell was here one. Sometimes just people like you seem use.

I'm like you you're, like two respectable of a figure to be coming to our podcast. I feel that way when I see the instant grams of the keep, it guess work, but it's too it's like you're, too cool to be in the office. There's that two yeah we get some celebrities in here who, unlike what are you doing here and then there's Kevin ROD and George Mitchell, it's it's quite a group that comes walking through this office. Ok, so one more announcement from ass. You guys were all so generous to donate a fair fight, twenty twenty, which Stacy Abrams effort to fight voter suppression, all over the country. In fact, thanks to you, fair fight was able to stop the Republican led government in Kentucky. From moving a hundred and seventy five thousand names to the inactive odorless in today. Andy,

sheer, will be the next governor of Kentucky because he won by five thousand and eighty six votes. That is one hundred and seventy five thousand people that could have been removed from the rolls and they weren't because of fear, fight and the democratic candidate won by five thousand votes. So because we did such a good job, raising the first million Stacey Abrams has asked if we could raise a second million dollars. You know we don't want to disappoint Stacey Abrams, you never do so. If you haven't pitched in yet or you know all who would want to help or you want to give again, let's finish out twenty tat by hitting too in dollars altogether, we have the first million. We would love your help with the second million and to help you can go to vote, save America, DOT, com, slush, fair fight chip, and what you can this money is needed. It is incredibly effective. Stacy Abrams has already proven that in Kentucky, and we will prove it everywhere in the country and twenty twenty

and then on that note, how are those early book sales are people coming through? They are. They are. I am glad you gave me this incredible segue way, because another way in which you can help firefight raise money is buying a copy of my book on Trawling America, which is that on February eighteenth, and, as we said last week, a portion of the proceeds of every book is going to get a fair fight and we- and I really want to sell books because only when helped her fight. Now as a result but I wanted to thank everyone who bought the book and Imma. Take you even more if the people who pre ordered, and then shared your proof of purchase. With your friends and maybe with me. So I can sleep better at night and I know he bought the bucket I'm so grateful for that. All of you have not yet bought it and I'm sure you will for those of you who follow the archives, lest you would know that the number one you know who's. The number one best selling author on the New York Times, Hardcover Nonfiction list

I sure do Dan because, sadly Airi Twitter too much- and I saw that you Char tweeted, that it was Donald Trump Junior and his book triggered, which is one of the thirty thousand things a day. That makes me want to throw my phone across the room. In addition to being very angering to you and Maddie up to triggering you if you will accomplish you hit the first thing down from general ever accomplish in his life. But if you look at it carefully, there is a little dagger next to Donald Trump Juniors name, because and what that dagger signifies is that in the course of analysing how many works out trumpeting your sold, they noticed suspicious bulk purchases of the book.

In in that is a parable of the difference between conservative authors, progressive authors, conservative politics, progressive politics is these conservative authors are often propped up by people like the aren't, see buying tens of thousands of copies of data from book, other billion era's republican organisations. Doing that, while progressive authors have to do it on their own, we have no guarantees, because they are deity- does not by many copies of my book. Although I would appreciate it would be a terrible use of their money, they should be spending it on organisers and things like that. So this is all say that if you hate Donald Trump, unlike states Abrams by the book- and if you don't mind I will presume so decision you need to make, as you were, perusing, Amazon or Barnes, noble or Andy about other all the other places you can buy the book,

We don't have pitch. We don't have a bunch of russian oligarchy buying a boat purchases of our books from Moscow. You now say that the conspiracy there again, that's that's what that's a data. I believe that story last night that russian copper company about seventy thousand copies of down from spoke- and I had an entire pitch for this morning, centred around. That fact is those very believable and then I did some real. Many people are saying many people saying: ok, let's get to the news on Wednesday to non part, in public servants who currently serve and Donald Trump State Department implicated him bribery and extortion scheme were he'd bully the ukrainian government into helping him rigged. The twenty twenty election bill tailor our current ambassador to Ukraine and George Kent. The state Department top Ukraine official testified for about five hours at the first public impeachment during which Taylor offered new, very incriminating information to the House Intelligence Committee. I think we have a clip of Taylor's bombshell.

A member of my staff, told me of events that occurred on July. Twenty six while a Besser, Vulcan Volker, and I visited the front smell My staff accompanied ambassador someone investor sound and met with MR you're back following that meeting in the some of my staff at a restaurant. Best of Stalin, called President Trump and told him of his and gave The member of my staff could hear President Trump on the phone asking about Sir something about the investigations. That's a silent all present trump, the Ukrainians were ready to move forward. Following call with President Trump, the member of my staff, asked investors on than what President Trump thought about Ukraine. As the sauna responded that present from care more about the investigations of Biden, which Julia was pressing for well, then, we're gonna, get to the bombshell, but first, what is think of the hearing

overall and how great is bill. Taylor's voice important that we just take a step back from, like the political analysis of the moment, the optics This is in even a specific substance of what Bill Taylor and George can't said. The United States Congress has convened impeachment hearings on the United States for using taxpayer funded military aid to extort in a lie under threat from Russia to interfere lecture like that, regardless of whatever else happens, how this affects not voters in Arizona, soaring voters and was constant or whatever else Robert ends. This is this is a day it like an important day in history and sniffing get at it is. I think we can look back at this moment as like an importance or crossroads for american democracy, because

the lot at stake, your beyond just how the house phones, how does he know how the Senate convenes the trion? What it means election is it this is. This is perhaps the highest crime ever committed by a president, and it is now an inquiry has begun in a trial will follow in that it like. That is more important than all of the sort of twitter machinations of the day. Yeah and look you know. Nancy policy has been saying for some time now that this is sort of a sad situation wherein- and you know she said she Ben prayerful and then she said, she's handling this in a very somber way, and you know the cynical among us can say well, you know she's doing that, because she shouldn't appear giddy over this and like at some political boon for Democrats, but thinking about this last night, when I was prepping for the pod,

I kind of agree partly because you know I we've always had this fear and expectation really that, at the end of the day, Republicans will acquit this president and what that says what that will say. About our democracy and what's allowed in this country and the president? It sets for future presidents that it is as long as you have the political support of your own party and you control at least some parts of the government. You can invite a foreign power to help rig and United States election, and that is a concern that the founders had from the very fucking beginning when they were at the constitutional convention. It is terribly alarming. Is the idea that a president can get a foreign power to interfere in the election? The idea that a president can target his political opponents using the vast power

the presidency, is very sad and also very terrifying, and you know I I kind of thought the same thing it wasn't like. I was, I didn't, find myself excited, or you know wondering just what the politics I was thinking about that you know, I think it's fair. Really analyze. The prospect of impeachment weather was right decision to do it or not mom and dad how to proceed once a decision was made through political lens right and that is that is set a reverse engineering. The almost certain outcome in the Senate but as we sat there yesterday watching, it is much bigger than that right in its. What would it how this place outside of extend beyond what happens in the selection- and I think it's worth just you know- has we're saying here take a moment and so that it so how significant is in just on a substantive basis. Here, how significant do you believe tailors,

revelation about this call between someone and Trump and in conversation with when an we now know the name of the staffer Taylor, staffer Dave HOMES, he's an embassy, staffer and will now be testifying in a private deposition on Friday. So how has significant? Do you think this is. I think, in terms of advancing what we know. It is not that significant. What is significant is that it is another person who can testify with first hand knowledge of what the present said, and there wasn't AP report this morning that there is a second embassy staffer, who also heard that call who I imagine will be hearing from soon so it like it is it. It does deliver a fatal blow to the already flawed hearsay defense that the Republicans have someone testify next week and someone has first hand knowledge of what the president said to him and in some of these meetings someone is a

or witness in the sense that he is here, to paint as a deep state operative right here. In summary, we gave a million dollars to trap please also someone who is already once why Slash, failed to recollect under oath, and so in some ways he is a imperfect witness having having career. Theoretically, on parties in foreign service off first testify to the same thing, just buttresses. The democratic democratic case in a strongway, I think, yeah. I think that I mean look republic Literally, get out of every single argument, leave every defense behind and go onto a new one, and then they will certainly do this here, but you know any and a public hearing that was on elevation for many hours yesterday. I think Republicans hung way too much on this hearsay. Defense. No one has talked to the president that we're hearing from directly

and, like Gordon Solomon is going to testify next week and Gordon Sondland is either going to perjure himself again Basically, Ourense that Bill Taylor Dave Holmes, The second embassy staffer are all lying or Gordon Sondland is going to say that he had a direct conversation with the President knighted states and believe that the president cared more about investigating or a sham investigation of his political opponent than he did about any Ukraine policy or corruption in Ukraine, which is the big argument that the Republicans are making, so Republicans are known to be looking around quarters and planning long term strategy here, like they're, just trying to get through the day, but I'm not sure the value of the hearsay argument or the value of the trump really cares about corruption. Argument will talk about this in a bit

when you now have this phone call between Sunland and Trump at work, you're about from someone and from the two people who, over the phone, call em. You did this That's enough political significance to it to which is our media significance, which is The media law- something knit yes right, laid everything else, which is a video version of the written deposition transcripts. We, and so, as we know, from the Mueller report from other testimony, where to meet some tasks set by the media. You need something new, and here you had something even if it didn't advanced the story. Sniffing gently- it was a surprise in surprise- is incredibly important. In a media assessment of a hearing, apparently for reasons that are somewhat bizarre by such as life so we'll talk about how Taylor and Kent did as witnesses.

General. You know I found them very credible. They started both of them started by emphasizing you know, there's a nonpartisan credentials. They both basically said you know we're not here to take a side. We have served republican and democratic presidents and I think they both did a very good job of knocking down a lot of sort of the republican nonsense arguments. You know from Bill Are you know you heard how he believed that withholding any aid to Ukraine, after was already appropriated, was crazy not for any policy, believes or policy reasons, but because the State Department wanted to give the aid. The defence department wanted to give the aid every expert and non partisan official working in the federal gum, with the exception of maybe Donald Trump and Gordon Sondland and Mick Mulvaney wanted the aid to be released,

so he talked about that. He thought about how no president has ever ever condition for an aid on a personal or political favor. So this is not the normal course of business, which is you know what people might think. There's corruption all the time presidents are trying to get political favors all the time. That's what foreign policy is. That's what domestic policy is when your present you try to help yourself. You know bill. Taylor said no, that's never been done before, and I also think Taylor made the point that you know Trump wanted Zalenski presence to do this in public? If he really cared about corruption? If he really cared about very smooth corruption, you know he could have asked. The landscape still would have been fuckin wrong and probably a people to conducts, private investigation, but all he wanted was for him to go on CNN and make a public statement that they were investigating Joe Biden- that's what he wanted, so I thought that the tellers really effective? What what did you think and what did you think of George get other? They are both excellent. They were

Are there the people for all the discussion of how terrible Washington is in politics sucks what they are like. I've never met George can't, but they we have met people like them throughout the government career. Partisan public servants who view it as there are wise calling to see United States, regardless of service military. Sagacious sees like each s or the Inter Department who are just trying to do the right thing and they test they. That's appears be who they are that's how they testified. They were very and serious and didn't give two anyone's partisan instincts right, whether if the Republicans trying to get them to we know sort of validating conspiracy SIRI or Democrats tried to get them to make assets. It's about the the ability of Donald Trump conduct. They only testified to

what they had seen and what they do and what their experience was and didn't make proclamations beyond what they were supposed to do with them. That way, I thought they were incredible witnesses I dont know if people necessarily understand that when you work in the White House, Can you work for the administration just how many people you work with on a daily basis do not necessarily share your partisan politics and it's not necessarily that they share. You know the other side's politics, but they truly are non partisan. Almost a political public servants who sometimes, those of us who were on the campaign or I'll shoot the shit about politics, in or people who worked and other administrations like the clear demonstration in a whirl talking politics and there's a whole bunch of people who were bureaucrats in the government were public servants who just don't participate in that and when they work with you, you can tell how non partisan they are because

They are job is to serve in government and they don't see their job is to take sides and partisan politics in those are all the people that were hearing from through the course of this impeachment hearing by and large. I also that the George can't was effective. You know, George, can't in his opening statement of talked about pre empted, one of the lines of attack from Republicans which, as you know, way back when George can't did say something to the vice president's office, like Hey Hunter binds on this board I'm a little worried about the appearance of a conflict of interest here. So you know, George can't did sort of raise his concerns about that, but then, in the next breath can says, but what Joe Biden did in firing? That prosecutor was a hundred percent correct it. The position of the entire United States government. It was the position of most of the world, except for corrupt people in Ukraine and in fat.

By Joe Biden by firing that prosecutor increase the chances that a new Non corrupt prosecutor would look into bereavement and so oh you know, I think George CAT was very effective and knocking down this conspiracy. That Joe Biden did anything wrong. Anything wrong with regard to Ukraine is not just like in a lot of reports of this there's no factual evidence. The Joe Biden did anything wrong, not to know it is like Joe by did the right thing in Ukraine. You can comment on whether Hunter Biden did the right thing by joining the board, whether it was a conflict of interest that conduct of but Joe Biden firing. That prosecutor was a hundred percent correct and I thought George CAT was very effective and in making that point it seems like the Republicans ah spent last time on by then I would have expected ya in part, because I think maybe the wage or can

channel that the beginning. Yes, I agree with that. Let's talk about how the Democrats on the intelligence committee handled the hearing, starting with chairman, Adam Schiff, who gave a pretty powerful opening statement. Let's play the issue that we confront is the one by the president's acting chief of staff, once the Moroccans to get over it. We find that the present United States abuse of power and invited for it, appearance in our elections sure, coerce, extort or bribe and ally into Ducting investigations to aid his re election campaign and did so by withholding official acts. Meeting or hundreds of millions of dollars of needed military aid Must we simply get over it

This would Americans should now expect from their precedent if this is not in future will conduct? What is it? This is not an people conduct. What is I thought that was me. The most powerful line from chef. How do you think shifted overall in the hearing flawless, I thought chief and all of the democratic dead everything I could have hoped that they will do their the their arguments were clear v. They handled it with the seriousness of the occasion deserved. They did not get drawn into Jim Jordan style absurdities or get pulled into the mud, or looks like they were preening for the cameras and their questions. The division of topics among the members were every one sort of hidden different thing. It wasn't just every wonder. In the same way, he will ask questions as opposed to get speeches the thought of either they did. I

just a truly phenomenal job like, and we have been always critical of Democrats in hearings and yeah they couldn't. I could have asked for I really was incredibly oppressed with them. I feel this and you know you guys all know. We've we've been critical of Pelosi in the past. Earrings. In the past, we've been pretty honest about that. The Mueller hearing was not the blockbuster that we all hoped for. I think that was more molars fault. That's on the committee, but so be it, but I do think that You know Adam Schiff and the Democrats handled yesterday with the seriousness it deserves, with the seriousness that the american people hopefully expect

Espino and it was. I don't think that was easy, especially when you know you saw a moment when Republicans on the committee tried to turn it into a circus, try to drag Adam Schiff into their bullshit so that they would say something crazy and then maybe he would get upset and they would get in a fight and they cancel get the partisan food fight and he just refused and when they wanted to enter something crazy into the record. You just said sure entered into the record and I thought that his demeanor was- was very effective, and I think this is important to say, because

as we move forward and Republicans continue to act more like Jim Jordan and start screaming and yelling, and turning this into a circus, I guarantee there will be plenty to say: Adam ships got to fight back and I'm just being too passive into he's, got to show some fight until I got he should not. He should not, because this is not about winning a food fight with the Republicans on the committee. That's not what people watching want to see happen. This is about making the best case possible and making them look like they're, the partisan political ones and the Democrats, ones who care about this violation of the president's oath of office. What do you think about the democratic strategy? Overall? Not just the demeanor like do. Do you think the Democrats made an effective case with what they with what they had to work with? I do, I think, did they It was smart to start with two subjects:

unimpeachable witnesses who could speak to both the facts of what happened? and the geopolitical consequences of. Tromp Giuliani, shenanigans other, was very important. It sets the stage of getting into the broader here a six week in talking to people like someone and others, though they are very good witnesses. I thought it was the predicate like you want to set a predicate for what is to come, and I thought they did that Positive mecca is brought by blue apron. When was the last time you made a dinner, you were proud of. That sounds like right before someone as someone for divorce, your parents, asking as as it as a plate of haricots their fly across. Making hills with blue apron as science meets heart. What's haricot Vert

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With the Intel Committee, ranking member Devin Nunes, who opened with a rambling series of conspiracy theories that resembled a Sean Hannity monologue. Including one it. Well, we should just play the clip hair. This is this is what Devin Nunes said during his opening statement. We should forget about them. Reading fabrications of Trump Russia collusion from the Steele dossier into the congressional record. We should also forget about them. Trying to obtain nude pictures of Trump from russian pranksters to be cranium officials. We should forget about them leak in a false story to see an end, while he was still test fine to our committee, claiming that Donald Trump Junior was colluding with Wikileaks and forget about countless other deceptions, large and small that make them the last people on earth, with credibility to hurl more preposterous accusations at their feet.

Then you and I pay pretty close attention to the news. We pay pretty close attention to the various right wing conspiracy theories that sort of float through the ether on the internet. I have to admit, I have not heard about the one where the Democrats tried to get nude pictures of Donald Trump What was that I don't know what to say. I do not know what to say: I do not want to see those. I do not know. When does american deserts better than that, I mean I thought it was so fascinating, watching Devin Nunes

this routine, because my first thought was, if you do not spend time watching Fox news or trafficking, and you know a chance for Chan, conspiracy theories, listening to infer wars or Ben Shapiro, whatever you would think that they were speaking in a foreign language on that committee, because the list of things that he ran. Through were crazy town. I just I don't know how it's affected. I know how its effective in keeping their base in the Fox NEWS, watchers angry, titan. You know he's playing all the hits, but doesn't seem like it's effective beyond that. But who knows I don't know? What do you think? My take away from Nunez its performance and then also open sea from Jim Jordan and a few Slater. Was there

are much more interested in persuading trump of their loyalty to him than persuading the american people of Trump citizens I think that says everything about the currency to republican politics, they're, much more afraid of angering Trump primarily and losing their jobs and their of actually do the right thing, or even thinking in some sort of strategy about how power would handle this in a way that minimize damage to the party writ large right. There's like this massive prisoners, dilemma problem for all the Republicans and that's a very apt term. I think in terms of how to handle this? Is their dealing with their own politics? Not what is best for the party and every one of them is doing now Republicans made this big show of you know we don't have anyone on the Intel Committee that can really be. You know the best defender, Donald Trump, which tough, tougher Devin Nunes and so they removed member of the Intel Committee and replace that person with Jim Jordan.

Who is supposed to be that you know the hero of the day was going to defend Donald Trump? How do you think Jim Jordan did I think he did exactly what he was supposed to do with the fake Donald Trump feel better about himself. He is basically just a obnoxious, not too bright security blanket for Donald Trump and Donald Trump feels better. If there is Jim Jordan is basically like low right, Hannity right, and so that, like that's, is that its future and so that, like that, may trump feel better The heated anything like you d, better than Devon Nunez sure, but the men elderly. Who does it right here We should not trump wants to hear right. It, frankly, is what some Republicans want to hear its. Basically, how right cabinet to be Yeltsin's gallons bring court was by screaming. Everyone that was? That was my first thought when I listen to Jordan, I was like oh this is there Kavanaugh Lindsey, Graham, if we're in

losing the argument. If we can just scream about how we are grieved and and Donald Trump's a victim, if we can yell loud enough, then it's going to work and of course it did work for them in the cabinet hearings, and you know Devin Nunes. His approach was to basically like read off thirteen conspiracy theories to Bill Taylor and say: have you heard of Have you heard of that, and I don't think that was quite effective and you know then you saw like Republicans like will HURD. Differently, more moderate, but his clearly bought into a lot of the bullshit. During this impeachment hearing, you know try to sort of Lay out. A more constructed our men about why Trump might be innocent of this and I'm watching all that and then listen to Jim Jordan Sound like a fucking auctioneer screaming ass ass. We can and yelling- and I was thinking like this- is this

probably where this is going to go in the coming weeks like they are quickly going to lose patience, some of these Republicans and if they feel cornered or just going to start yelling and screaming to get through it Yeah I mean you can expect a walkout. You get like all kinds of absurdities to try to book process for Sure Matt Gaetz barging into the room riding elephants, there was one moment with with Jim Jordan yelling, where I thought it was one of the democratic members on the Intel committee. Had it had a great retort. Look. So, let's play that clip now there is one witness one witness that they won't bring in front of us. They won't bring in front the american people, that's the guy who started it all the whistle blower. Thank you I say to my colleague I'd, be glad to have the person who started at all come in and testify present Trump is welcome

how to take a seat right there, what a line from Peter Wallace got. He got the biggest laugh of the day. Donald Trump should come, sit down and and testify, but I thought it was. You know it's sort of the absurdity of the republic and focus on the whistle blower, whose accounts corroborated by numerous witnesses and hasn't been challenged successfully by any witnesses or any evidence. And the idea that Donald Trump is hiding from testify and didn't them mauler cases well and so and mean he's also preventing critical witnesses. Like John bone in MID mulvaney and everyone else from testified. Or even the notes of the people who were testifying. That day, you know who I was a big point about. George can't wrote that Notify off and teacher the State Department to be responsive speed. I and my pay a sitting on it, but like our,

to think that Peter Russia's cabinet, which quite funny adds apple, I would go to the heart of. It also goes to how dungeon Jordan, which is he just like, walked right into that it had no idea he was doing it. What did you think of the two staff lawyers who question the witnesses. Dan Goldman on the democratic side and Steve Caster on the republican side Jen Goldman was the Democrat was phenomenal. He but he knew exactly what he was doing. He asked the questions he had appeared a plan. Executed. The plan, the robot What attorneys was at a city of a million attorneys, that's the guy that God says a lot about how people wanted that job yeah head as series it. I dont know if he was directed by the Republicans to ask all these topics and and- and he probably did not away Thrall

conspiracies or why, but we sort of like a rambling series of questions here we have a weird constipated look on his face. It was. It was bizarre in enduring the questioning even some of Donald trumps, most fervent supporters. I, like you, know former White House Press secretary, ARI Fleischer was like on Twitter. What is this guy doing? This is not effective one republican operative, told Bloomberg. Sahil Kapur quote this is a man, the fucking shit show no one wants to be here, so you know a lot of spin from Republicans today that it was wonderful and boring and then Democrats had a rough time other kind of ship. During the hearing. Think there were that excited now he did. He did a terrible job and it it just sort of the fact that he had forty five minutes of questions, of question time. But enough for you really have forty five minutes of things to say sort of this, x, the weakness of the republican argument even saw that with some of the members with their five minutes-

Who had ask a couple of like the Non Jim Jordan Types, which sort of asking four questions and then just give up in the other time back, because there's Nothing like the conduct is indefensible rightly, you can, only just a question of how much shame you're willing to bathe in it during to defend Trump. But it's not like you- can there's no substance of argument to make here the answer to that is a like: a full sensory deprivation, tank of shame, what did you think of the media reaction to the Theatre criticism, if you will of of the hearing yesterday, I think it is. We should start the fact that the overwhelming majority of the coverage, I think, was fair. Objective and as serious as the moment demanded. I agree. I agree

sympathetic. To the sort of the cop media, large here, which is their their perform is often defined by not the work they do the majority of the work that is done, but by the worst examples of their work right so there, two stories that inflame the world one much of me and avoid errors in one by Jonathan Alan of Embassy. News the people were very mad about we're about about. Yeah, let me let me I'll, read the headlines just for people to to know why we were so annoyed Reuters headline was consequential, but dull trump impeachment brings begin without a bang and the lead was democratic lawmakers their hand at reality, television with mixed results on Wednesday, that's Reuters and where's. The NBC piece from Jonathan Allen, which you know in fairness in DC, was one piece of analysis out of a lot of coverage from NBC. That was not. This quote. The first two witnesses called Wednesday testified to present

scheme, but lacked the possess necessary to capture the public attention. Who are again, go go ahead. The thing you read from Jeff Mason is one of the worst things of our ever heard, my life. But I won't the county, for that. Is you and I Jeff Mason, for over a decade he hovered Obama's White House. He is ninety. Nine percent of the time, a very good straightforward wire report and so like people peace. They should be upset about this piece, but I do I think it is indicative of Jeff Mason right, I mean there are reporters, it analyst who often lead into these trips and I'm sort of famous for them. I don't think Jeff is one of those people, and so, like that's the perspective, I would offer of having worked with him for a while you know, I thought there was a really interesting conversation on twitter between two critics at the Times James Pontiac, today,

Scott, they talked about the value of ten. Vision, criticism, a big tv moments right and- think that that is very true, like that. Like it is a television moment right. It is like millions of Americans watch, union or inauguration- or you know the Mahler testimony I would ever it is, and I also very much enjoy the pieces written by tv critics about those things: people, ideas, Pinamonte, acrimony, nuss bomb or seven wall like really good writers, we're analyze it from the respective of television, but that job for television critics right, it would be annoying of James Pontiac was covering dated eight politics, but he has an expertise, knowledge, principes doing and so the point of their like what Scott was saying, as criticism is an art right is something you do and it should be left to the people who do it for a living ads or the pull. The rapporteur should cover the policy and the substance and the like already in all of what is happening in the

and we want to hear from train television critics about the television aspect and I think, as an interesting and important component of yeah, I may look. We cover, hopefully the substance of every political issue. We talk about on the show and then we also cover the politics and we do political analysis and we talk about It's on the show and you and I wish that we didn't have do when we complained about it. The entire time we were in the White House, but I remember last week before these hearing started

I was giving advice a Democrat and saying remember: this will be judged as a show. What kind of show you put on it should be choreographed. This is about trying to persuade the public, and so you do have to think about these things. So I don't think there is inherently a problem, or at least it's a necessity in the television age that we live in, to talk about sort of the performance of various political players, since this is about affecting public opinion. That's not necessarily my big problem with this. The problem is but lacked the pizzazz necessary to capture the public attention. How do you know that there are no poles? There is no data. How do you know? Jeff Mason, the Democratic, tried their hand reality television with mixed results. No one knows this yet right, like

mew, and I thought the Democrats had a fantastic job and it was choreographed really well. Other people might disagree with us in about a week. You know we have some polls that say that one way or the other, but the idea that reporters or summer orders of a minority of reporters in this instance believe that it is their job to preempt public opinion offering their own opinion of whether the testimony was effective or not bothers me, because It's also something that reporters do where it's like. We are all in this bubble together. Those of us who pay attention to politics a lot reporters political people pundits like no all this information, we ve heard it all before, except for, of course, the tailor bombshell, which I thought would prevent anyone from writing this bullshit, because we are something very new at the hearing because we all know this alot, you know unreal

There's a covering this everyday. Obviously they get bored by afterwhile because their trafficking in this bullshit all the time right. But what about the average voter, the average American who's walking around. Who doesn't pay attention to the news that much and they think. Okay, there was a big impeachment hearing yesterday. I want to find out what happened: didn't have time to watch it, so they go on, they go on their computers and they go on their phones and they seen NBC Peace, and it says it lacked the possess necessary to capture the public attention. If I were someone just watch that it be like. Well, I'm the public. Why did you make that judgment about me, I didn't even get to read the facts, yet I didn't even get to watch it for myself and I don't think that some reporters realized they by writing that stuff are shaping public opinion and who were they to shape obligate pinion, just based on their own personal opinion and not report the

substance of the hearing and also maybe do political analysis based on facts. Data experience in power it takes experience in media right like just give us something besides a poorly formed opinion right off the bat yeah. It is both presuming. The action of an influence in that reaction by that presumption. Yes, it is a self fulfilling prophecy, because if a bunch of people continue to read that the hearings were boring, people will think the hearings are boring. This is what happens and when you argue with reporters about this, as we have done in the past, but they will tell you is why one person who's going to read my blog who's going to read my piece whatever. But these things add up. You write for outlets that You know go far and wide and there's a responsibility that comes with that and again. I completely agree with your opening point here, which is, I was until saw those two pieces last night and they went around in our slack channel. I said to myself: wow I'm real

proud of the media and how they cover this. I think they have covered this in a serious substantive way, and I most in even Wanna tweet about these two pieces, because one of the things that happens in this age is the, This is the algorithms that use argument and Facebook to the things that peace people off the most than enrage people, the most are what get shared the most. And now I fear that so many people will be like. Oh, you know, the impeachment hearings recovered is boring by a bunch of people, so that must be I almost didn't even want to lift these pieces up, but We have a long way to go and many weeks to go. I think you know it should be it's a brushback pitch to the rest of the media. And I thought- and frankly I with this is something I thought there was rare This. Was a lot of reporters were critical of of those of those takes right is not just those two pieces, but just anything that sort of had that sort of tv assessment from a political point, and we just talk like

We did the thing that I warned about, which is we define like we do. We took the two or species and we use it finally has like most people I really like great job The outlined in the middle of the hearing yesterday I put it in a one I am so there was, like rate, was our reaction to the media coverage of this, and my presumption was. It would be largely it actually wasn't right hopefully, origin do has explained the outrage hours and on twitter about those pieces, and now is that most people did there Roma majority comes without was sir. It took this very seriously about that's important yeah, and I do think you know. One thing I worry about is, as I mentioned, I think Taylor's revelation sort of drove a lot of the coverage, because if reporters can write about something new than they don't necessarily right about all the beer

This isn't stuff, and so you know I do have a concern that, as the testimony continues into next week, if each witness doesn't have a bill Taylor like bombshell, then we will devolve into sort of the worst of the coverage that we were just complaining about. So I do have that fear and look, I have a bigger anxiety, which is. This is still seen as a test. By too many in the media. As can Democrats persuade Republicans to do the right thing, and I think that you know Democrats had probably do themselves some good by setting expectations now that we do not see our job here. Democrats on that committee do not see their job as trying to persuade republican members of Congress to do the right thing and vote their conscience. That's that's for the Republicans to do what the Democrats are trying to do is lay out a case to the

american people about why the president has betrayed his oath of office and, if republicans agree with that, then please join us in voting that way. If you don't, then that's telling to the american people and they should vote accordingly in twenty twelve that's. That should be our goal. I don't, I think this whole ideas, like you know if Democrats can convince Republicans to vote with them, they win and if Republicans can Maine partisan unity they win like I just. I think we have to get out of that frame. We have already given Republican. His name is just a marsh rank. He was forced to leave the party, because it's actually an impossible situation cake you miserable because of the republic and agrees with you, they beer where's the leave the party so hits. It is going to be a partisan vote there, just as the question of there will be other independence. I just know much so all that it's it's a We cannot allow a test to be set out. The Democrats are destined to fail So what up? What? What comes next

next week and in what is wednesdays, testimony change. If anything, while I think it really puts the onus even more so on Gordon Sondland. Testimony like that is, I think, the most interesting and compelling to be the hardest. That- I think that for internet, where people looking for what to do and what's different, that will be the one we have a parade of other. Non partisan career. Officials who are gonna come in and speak too. What we already know and corroborate things that really call transcript, wherein the deposition were in make movies national television announcement of crimes. But Gordon someone is the one who spoke directly the present who we will hear from yeah. I so think that I don't think I'm going to be a moment that is,

even if there are other developments, other bombshells, that is going to instantly change public opinion here. I think this is going to this is something this is going to be. Building built, and so you know I would even be wary of pulled the come out in a couple days pulled to come out next week, like. I think what I will happen here is as witness after witness testifies the same thing as they corroborate each other's testimony. As you see at this parade of non partisan officials, then the cumulative effect of all of this testimony will be powerful and compelling, but it will take time it will take repetition, and I don't think we should ever expect anything to change overnight and then possibly at all. Look what we said this to our own polling right before the hearing started, showed ninety four percent of democratic leaning voters,

peach, men and ninety four percent of Republican, leaning, voters against and there's like two percent, but had made up their minds so You know we live in a polarized environment and that's that and there's nothing much. We can do about that right now, but I feel like I would be upset and anxious. If I think Democrats didn't do a great job if we didn't have all the facts on our side right like if to the media. Looked like those two pieces. I'd be upset like. I think the Democrats are doing everything they can possibly do they're taking it seriously. We have very compelling That's very compelling evidence and testimony from non partisan people that there's nothing else. We do, and I'm glad we're doing this because, as we said at the top, this is that important. You know it

It really does rise above partisan politics, or at least it should because it is a very scary, serious moment for the country and no matter what happens. I'm glad the Democrats have have pursued this. Ok, when we come back we'll talk more impeachment with our guest former Acting solicitor General Neil catch it. Patent, it has brought in by movement Holy shit it's almost the holidays, again wow right from the copy their watches. Has you covered the season with hundreds of watches blue light? asses Sonny's, as we call them in jewellery sales to choose from stuff here Organs impress your family, while your partners or treat yourself, because we know your dressing up with the perfect gift was a lot. I am, I believe, Christmas and Hanukkah, and holidays are real time to be with your family in at leisure, jogger, yeah for sure, when we dressing up

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More than one word I know now are is make it shows me it's almost holiday season unless your job. Love it for him. The holiday started the day after Halloween who wrote this huh, who wrote this copy Christmas. We we had crooked media. Are getting a head start on celebrating with some new holiday March on the crooked store? We have your favorite positive, merkin friend of the plot teachers and sweatshirts, and we added a bunch of new stuff. I have even seen yet all the dance sends out. There can now get now dance dance. It's not great anti shirts, ok, I've! The mile tumblr, I do have a drink from the timber often, and we also have new car magnets. Many of our marrying than on the CUP of Dan travelled motors and more tie dye to help you get a head start on holiday shopping.

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check it out. Crooked dad come such store on the Plaza day, the former acting solicitor general of the United States and the co author of the upcoming book impeach the case against Donald Trump NEO Colonial Neil Welcome implies a miracle. Thank them. Each fan of ears and such really exciting, for me to be here same here same here, listen with yesterday's hearing. What did you make of bill? Tailors new revelations about Gordon someone's call with Donald Trump? How significant you think those were, I think it's quite significant suffers. Vall paler is not just any one. He's trumps guy he's trumps hand picked a guy to serve as ambassador Ukraine, and just within a few,

two seconds of him. Standing up there and testifying you could tell it was going to be a pretty significant event, a guy who was literally a war hero who would work for republican presidents as well as democratic ones, who was Juno relay striving to be, and say I'm not taking a position on Peachman, I'm just here as a fact witness and then he dropped- and it came late that page eighteen of his twenty page testimony this remarkable that on July, 26th one members was with Ambassador Sunland, who was Trump's guy to be ambassador to the European Union, but also his kind of hand picked person run, the shadow foreign policy and someone had a conversation with President Trump in a restaurant on a cell phone

is, like nine degrees form, if not gravity perspective, but in any event, what was what the tap first said that he overheard president from saying was asking about the quote: investigations Afterwards, the staffer had a conversation with Ambassador Soundlink about what President Trump thought about Ukraine, and this is a quote from the bachelor toes testimony yesterday, quotes and bath store. Sunland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden and that's significant because it ties trump directly to all of these events, that's the first thing and the second is it lands, so blind and even further hot water. This is the guy who had a closed door interview a few weeks ago and what she basically denied having anything to do with Troy

open Ukraine, this hole shadowform plot and then, as more people testified in closed session. He then all of a sudden, magically remembered a bunch of things and wrote an updated letter to the Congress saying so, and now he's going to have to do something again. Next week, he's testifying on Wednesday and the choice before him is so either he's going to say. Oh, I now magically remember that conversation with the president that I somehow forgot, which again very dubious for anyone. Who's worked, You know better than anyone in his work for an administration. You remember if the conversation job at the President of the United States, but either he's going to say that that he now magically remember something he had forgotten into prior sessions or he's going to call ambassador failure a liar and good luck with that. Given this man's gravitas and credibility yeah, you know that was one of my first reactions yesterday. It was you know what

he's with Gordon Sondland. He obviously has lawyers advising him like what you have been advising him. If, if, if you were his lawyer, do you think that he told them the whole truth? What do you think was going on there? How did he think he was going to get away with all this? First of all, he is represented by one of the greatest. Around five plus skin, so good as they come, and so I have to believe that there is no chance. Simon told the whole truth to his lawyer, and you know this is, unfortunately what trump does he corrupts the people around him, even if they've started out. Well meaning and and in a real attempt to try and protect him and protect this lawlessness. Seneca road, Seneca, roads massively and, I think sound. When does the fur person to face it and probably will not be the last, and this is why the investigation I know some, investors may be wondering. Why do you start an investigation?

This way with all these closed door and reviews, and then these witnesses, who are necessarily the central witnesses- and you do it because you running this part like a law enforcement about sagacious, you're, trying to get people to first testified behind closed doors and then to later catch them in wise, which is exactly what happened. The farmland and fill the case building is methodical and slow. It's not absolute wisdom and so you know some of them. Pundits today were saying: oh well, there weren't any bombshells on the first day, or wasn't that exciting it was a little boring or so on. That's how long person investigation should be. We should worry about a process that was all designed for political theatrics and not for building legal case. So obviously you know someone is someone who had direct contact with the president. Can you talk about from a legal standpoint, this

argument that all the other testimony so far is just hearsay second and third hand. Information, GAD, Felicia hearsay is the idea that the recent unit you dont, have a first hand. Witness to President Trump state of mind that took her publicans are saying they're saying, look. President said he cared about corruption, you don't have any first hand, witnesses that say to the contrary and gear say, is actually accepted in federal courts there. Twenty three different exceptions, but here there's a much simpler answer to this, and this is why I think this republican argument as ultimately gonna blow up in their face, there's only one reason: we don't have first hand witnesses. The birch and witnesses are people like John Bolt and the President's national security adviser, Bolton's, dump deputy coppermine, the President himself and people like that. Those

people with first hand. Knowledge no question about it. All of those people are under orders by the president not to go and testify not to provide any documents to Congress. He's written a memo through his White House counsel. That says about that. Even the two gentlemen who we heard from yesterday. Kenton Taylor we're under that same order not to testify by the president and their courageous, Lee and patriotically decided to go. The truth, but the reason why we don't why there is some hearsay going on it simply a matter of the president's doing- and this is what I wrote about a New York Times this week, which is the idea that a president can say. I can't be indicted cause I'm a sitting president and President Kennedy and I do not know how stooge and I can't be impeached.

Because I have the ability to stop any investigation into me and not turnover evidence and not to provide any witnesses. I mean that at least working George, the third. What is this matter more powerful that so I mean there is literally no responsible constitutional dollar in this country dead or alive. Who agrees with these propositions so Democrats have made the choice to avoid waiting for the courts to decide whether people like Bolton and mobility have to testify and have said sort of like you're, just saying you know that their refusal to show up as more evidence of obstruction in there just gonna sort of added to the pile. Do you think this is the right strategy and how strong do you think the Democrats case would be if they did fight it out in court in terms of getting Bolton to test

I do think, there's privilege arguments there, what you think about that, so that one of the reasons I wrote this book with SAM Coppermine is because we think that the case is overwhelming and strong on the existing public record, and so you have the president in a trance, Kraft. It's not a direct transcript. It's more of a memorandum of a conversation in which the president admits the whole thing and that's an open and shut case for impeachment. It raises a offense that is really that the heart of what the founders put impeachment in the constitution, for which is an executive. That's trying to collaborate with a foreign government to try and win an election who it is squarely. What impeachment is about.

Stuff. You could build more of a case for that particular offence with Bolton and Coppermine and others, and then there are other offences to you know even going back to mower, which could be looked at, and I think that I think if they went to court, the Democrats went to court, they would win those things, but it would risk muddying a very clear storyline. So I don't have problem if they want to try and go to the courts on a separate timeline and do that, but they have to be able to walk and chew gum. At the same time, and here they have a clear, simple, easy case for impeachment, and they should be running that first and anything else that they happened to get through the courts. That's just gravy so can you make the case like if, if, if you were Adam schiff- and you are giving us or of a closing argument here at the end of at the end of this impeachment trial, like there's, obviously a whole bunch of people?

that sort of in the in the Fox news bubble and are buying sort of the various republican conspiracies, but make a case to the person. You thanks. You know, okay, maybe what Trump did was wrong, but all presidents make decisions to benefit themselves politically. We have an election coming up soon. Maybe we should just decide all of this. Then, as I keep thinking about this case, we look for lotta people listening. It may come down to that and maybe, if their publicans get smarter in adult they'll, get to that argument, what what sort of the best case for why he needs to go now, it's real simple and I did explain the rule that I just tryna live my life by, which is what I called the yardstick rule and it's the way I teach my lawsuit and send their first day of class, which is, I just want you to pretend that the sides were reversed. So just ask yourself: if President Obama did this

or if a President Elizabeth WAR in her Bernie Sanders, did this and went to a foreign government and said hey: will you announce an investigation into my chief political rival? How would that make you feel? What would that send as a signal if you said that was ok to future precedent Who did the song in secret and the only reason after all we find out about it, is because of this brave whistleblower. If a president can do that in secret, they destroy the ability to have re election as a check. You know in the Philadelphia convention There was a big debate should we have impeachment or not, and some folks like Governor Morris, said well, the president has to run re election. So we don't really need to have impeachment in there be a re election. Conserve is a referendum on impeachment and Ben Franklin and others stood up and said. Well what about, if the president goes in conspires with a foreign government, took away

the election process and then Governor Morris changes his mind and said, yeah, absolutely that's a circumstance in which we should have impeachment and that's where high crimes and misdemeanors that lane. Comes from and so Sadly I mean our foundered. You know you go back at me: the Philadelphia conventions they were so wise and so many ways obviously were painfully ignorant. Another spends on something like this: they did design and architecture a government that is made for a circumstance like this, in which a precedent is putting his personal interests of real action above the interests of the american people, so usually said a few weeks ago that you believe trump we'll be impeached and remove from just before twenty slash. Twenty, I would love to believe that, but I have not seen anything from Senate Republicans in the last I don't know ten years

twenty who are willing to convict or even even worse or to what? What am I missing? What what gives you some measure of confidence that we might be able to convince some of these recent Senate Republicans, two of their conscience. Look at me. Confidence is frankly, the fact the country is still here with its values and that over time, Americans at critical moments have cast the right decisions, whether at seventeen, seventy six and breaking with Britain or seventeen, denying and developing a competition or eighteen sixty five winning the civil war. Nineteen thirties, with the new deal World WAR Ii or the civil Rights Revolution or the

quality Revolution in others so many times in which people say we can't possibly be, and yet this country manages to get it done and to me this is that kind of critical moment and we ve never forced. The democratic party has never force the Republicans to cast a vote and say: oh, this is ok. Senators are really gonna have to stand up and say, look into their hearts and say it's fine for a president to do. This because it President Trump can do this Bernie Sanders can do this and Elizabeth worn and everyone else, and what does that would do to our democracy? So I do have faith in the end that those boats are cast. You know in the book. I talk about a story about Senator Ross from Kansas during the impeachment Andrew Johnson and Johnson was a terrible racist president, but he wasn't being a search for any of that he's being impeached for a violation of the tenure of office act, the kind of technicality

Even though Roth hated Johnson, he sat looked into his heart and cast a vote not to impeach, because you didn't think it was the right thing to do for the country under the way that impeachment proceeding has been brought in. Like to think that there are future senator's Ross. Senator Ross is out there when it comes to a critical moment like this, in which the eyes of history, and indeed the fate of our democracy, may rest on the boats. So at one last night, impeachment question just because you have argued so many cases before the Supreme Court this week. The court also heard oral arguments in the case. You know some legal observers who were watching those arguments reading, but those arguments furtive thought the way the John robbers was talking. He said our well. This has to do with the benefits and work. Permits- and I don't think you know what repealing this would. You know lead to

coordination and would it what could had kind of sense? Did you get from those oral arguments about where the court might be leaning in and should we be caught, in general about are interpreted too much for moral arguments in a case like that? Yes, the personnel have the privilege of represent a lot of higher education associations in that case, and saying that President Trump's decision, not here is illegal, so just just know that you know, having argued thirty nine cases- thirty eight of them before John Roberts. I can tell you, I am never certain

when I leave the courtroom he loves playing devil's advocate. He was himself and extraordinary legal advocate before the Supreme Court and now carries a little bit of that on to the bench with him. So you know he asked questions on either side and that's what you saw I think of the hearing on Tuesday. I am cautiously optimistic at the end of the day that the court is going to say that this is something a president can't do in part, because the Trump gutted their own legal case by making that policy arguments but kind of were silly legal arguments. In part because they acting head of homeland security at the time, is Duke refused to make the policy arguments cuz? She thought they were evidently important. That's that is hopeful

Neil! Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Everyone go check out the book impeach the case against Donald Trump, thanks for coming on, come back soon Thank you very much. Okay. Dan Let's turn to twenty twenty, and let's start by talking about one, the gene mystical way that impeachment may affect the democratic primary. If the house votes to impeach Trump Mitch Mcconnell, has committed to holding a Senate trial, which he has reportedly told his collar may begin right around thanks, giving Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman rigid birth suggested. The trial may take six to eight weeks, though leadership sources close to Mcconnell disputed that but whenever the trial is and however long it takes, six democratic presidential candidates will be forced off the campaign trail to serve as jurors Elizabeth Warren Bernie Sanders. Kamala Harris, Cory, Booker and

jar and Michael Bennet Dan. How much of a political problem for them is this as they are trying to run their campaigns It is a political problem for sure, like you were, the place where you want to be in January is Iowa. You want to be spending the bulk of your time in Iowa, organizing caucus go. Where is building up your feet, your volunteer network and recruiting prison captains like that. Best way to win? I owe you want to spend some time in the other three early say it's swallowed. If you are in Washington, you are not doing any of those things like I'm sure there are ways to you, go Thursday night to Monday morning and be in Iowa, but you're going to be a decided disadvantage to people to judge met. Anyone else who Andrew Yang, who have the time to just camp out, It has come about that. The challenge for the the other can senators is. It is likely that the

the political conversation is going to be on the impeachment trial, who's going to be on tv. That is who is going to be talked about social media. That is, who is another opportunity for viral moments and What are things we've seen in this Mary did. Eight is when candidates are perfect conversation they do quite well, I gave it to being outside. Of that conversation, they often drop pretty quickly. You saw with people to judge right, He was a big are the conversation he moved up really quickly in the polls. Fell out of it as a sort of plateaus and can I went back down to be in the lower tier and then had a good performance in several media cycles- it is, it- is built his way back up to being a top tier candidate. You know what battle battle gets in How much money you are excitement falls out of the conversation and drops and then what conversation getting back in is very, very hard, so

There are upsides and downsides to this, but I think the campaign managers of any of these candidates would prefer their candidate. I want, and I'm also pretty sure, Mcdonald's doing this, just a fuck with that, because he's Most people just want to see the world burn yeah. I was thinking that too I mean yeah torn on this one right, like obviously you want to be on the ground in Ireland, Hampshire, meeting voters right. That's that still matters, but I am Also aware that we are in the media, political environment that you just described, which is you know, this race is much more. Ash and lies than ever before. Even in some of these early states, people are receiving information about the candidates through the National NEWS and social media and maybe not as much as they use

person and look we're not going any viral moments from the senators who were jurors during the impeachment trial, because the senators aren't supposed to say anything but during the breaks after the day is over of the impeachment agent each day of the impeachment trial? You know these all of these there will be all over Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes and CNN, and all these different shows and they'll have a lot of media opportunities to talk about the trial and talk about what they just saw now. Will they be about what they want to talk about, which is healthcare and wages, all the issues they would have been talking about if they were on the ground, and I went to Hampshire, where they're not talking about impeachment at all, probably not in those interviews, are going to have to be talking about impeachment, which I'm sure they don't wanna talk about it, and so I do think it some its mixed. Its mixed for these candidates. Are they the candidate among the senators who has the biggest opportunity?

here is Kamala Harris right. I agree with that, even though she is a juror in this case, and it's not going to be prosecuting the case She is always at our best when she gets too high wait her prey. Torres scale. So that is not speaking about her criminal justice reform record. I am talking about the issue This is where she is questioning bill bar, crushing, Brett, Cavenaugh or speaking to that, because that is that has been with irish limits has to date the proxy for her electable. It a case as she is. The pursuit can take trump down on the debate stage, and there is an opportunity here for to highlight that to take that part of her bio and make it a acid. And really then opportunity to actually use the term resuscitate by two. We know sort of build back the momentum, she's loss in we get back into the topped here in time to make an impact on the campaign year and I think TAT

to that extent, you know Amy Clover Char, serves on this and examined eighty yeah and was a prosecutor, and so- and I think, especially for closure and Booker, who had a harder time, and Bennet to an extent who had a hard time getting any attention from media at all nationally. I think this will help them get some attention I think for, Warren? You know she was out very early for impeachment and made it a big deal. So that's before I would bet that have all those folks Bernie is probably the most annoyed because Bernie doesn't love talking about impeachment. He has a message, that's very different than that, and you know, and he and campaign is big on organizing and he loves doing rallies, and so I would imagine, he's, probably one of the more annoyed candidates that he has to go to this gap. That's right. So as we mention one person who will not be stuck in Washington, is mere PETE Buddha Judge, who has seen some pretty good poles. Lately

This day, Monmouth University, a great bolster published a pole of likely Iowa democratic caucus, goers the head PETE leading a twenty two percent. This is the first pole. The peat has led in Iowa Fuse, followed by binding at nineteen percent, worn at eighteen percent in Bernie at thirteen percent. Buddha judge gained fourteen points since Monmouth last, I will pull in August and what are you attributed I made he he's been, writing a wave really has, and we should just put some this. Beyond all this conversation that I just saw them or register, as a new poll coming out Saturday night so that will be the one if he's leading that Paul, that's the the starting gun goes off, but Nate Silver had an interesting take on this, which is

Lake is it this? Everyone is sort of working that black PETE's rise, which is happening, and I was happening a national policies having in other really staples. We see at least New Hampshire, not so much. The more diverse states amount in the programme yet, but a lot of you are showing that it was last debate performance minnow ever that was a few weeks ago, which I think we all believe was a good. Very good performance but like what Nate Silver pointed out with something like people just gained a couple like a point. Maybe in the polls taken right afterwards, but there he is managed to engineer a media cycle about his surging and there's a self perpetuating element to that is leader, he has been every like. You redeem for your papers, british edge in the cap seat dial up he put a jet surging and that and he is deathly drawing the crowds at suggest a surge. So it's not made up of whole cloth, but he is

he's written a very favourable media wave that is happening, the same time about questions about the elect ability or viability of the front runners than of which we fully understand interpreter take seriously. But at a question when Democrats are very is managed to leverage your favorite music and a desire for clinical, more electable alternative among some who to get to the top question is: did he get there too soon? Yeah, I mean like. I think I think Nate's point is, is right about the debate. I also think this is so the result of a slow build in Iowa that comes from having an excellent organisation there and having been on television there. But a lot of money on television and I are, and in our member, months ago, when he was an Iowa for his Iowa show. That will be first episode dropping next week and he was

sing us and he's like you know, I'm at the speed of nth at a place in Iowa, where usually don't get, that many people and there are tons and tons of people here and so PETE's crowds of sort of predated, the in Iowa at least have predated some of the that debate where he, where he did pretty well- and you know I think, is used to this is the case, and I think it's the same with Elizabeth Warren Wizard of OZ, rise for her and Iowa right like when you have a really good. Station in Iowa get on the air and you can spend a lot of time there talking to people. You know. If you have the right message, then it can pay off, think you know we saw this during the the J J are now The El J tenor. That's the trouble with pretty distinct messages. Were Elizabeth warn her message about the need to fight for big structural change and people to judge which is much more a vague we need to.

Who fight, but we also need to come together and this sort of hunger among the electorate, for unity in the end of you know perpetual political warfare which is along with Aaron's message also a potent message I got it. I dont know if he's he's peak too soon, either and I imagine that in the next debate next week, but probably take some fire yeah me too, for some time perspective says PETE's rise here is about twelve years to the week of obese. As rise in Iowa, two thousand and seven when he searched the fraud that Alex repeat: is the imo caucuses one month later in two thousand and twenty than it was in two thousand avis January? Third, when a Mamma wanted separate there now- and I remember- we were for mamma- we were like hanging

for dear life to find ways to sustain our momentum, the just get to Comcast Day before you do you have that, because a narrative always turns after too long and that election. That was shouting, and there were some actual scary days where we thought or pull them are dropping right before the Christmas holiday add so peat has his real task in front of him. You know if it in front of his campaign, to keep that the map and survive a large number of debates. I think we had one debate between mom is surge and the actual Iowa caucus, maybe two at most, that he's going to have his at least at least December and Possibly I don't know how many but there's at least one and perhaps more in January, so here's a gauntlet to ride together. Yeah and the other challenge he has. Is this stat from that Monmouth Poll, fewer than third of likely caucus growers in Iowa say that they are set on their CAN

fewer than one slash three and most would not be disappointed to switch their support to another candidate before the first in the nation caucuses take place on February. Third that's that's a lot of people who haven't definitely their minds yet, and I think that is maybe one contributing factor to some of these other candidates, jumping in the re which is the last thing will talk about here. We have yet another candidate who was entered the democratic primary form to term governor of Massachusetts, Devolve Patrick jumped into the raised today Thursday, saying that this campaign is not just about the character of the candidates but the character the country. In an interview he also said quote, we seem to my grading too, on the one camp sort of nostalgia. Let's just get rid of If you will the incumbent president, and we can go back to doing what we used to do or its hour, Our big idea or no way neither of those it seems to me, seizes the moment to pull the nation together and bring some humility, Sudan. This is a reversal

his twenty eighteen announcement that he wouldn't be running for president. Why do you think he changed his mind me? I don't have to I mean of all Patrick someone that we have worked with he's been on the spot, Cassie someone who, as a person we really like and whose political talent we generally am, I I think, is one of the most talented orators in the democratic party. Full stop and he- and I think he if he had as I have often thought that if he had run two thousand sixteen he could have on the democratic nomination and if he had gotten in at the beginning, then he could have been a major factor in this race and I'm curious about this, and I want to hear more from him and whoever ends up working for him is to what they view their pat because the one thing we know about Deval Patrick is he is not someone who has some chemical need to be. President

feeling some need for attention or fulfillment in himself right. He that's just not who he and so and he doesn't at least in my experience he's, What if we savvy so he's, if not why he would just jump at something without a plants. I want to hear the plan is what does this plan to get on the debate stage? Wreckage what you get you two hundred thousand donors to be on the debate stage and candidates who have been running for almost a year are just barely get into the number people like Booker Booker. We just got there like in the last week or so and so how's of all Patrick Gonna get there. I see the logic, in the lane he is going for, I'm just not sure how he's going to hack it the attention and money it takes to be. In that way, yeah I mean I feel the same way. I am,

I love Deval, Patrick, you know I've known him for, like you, have for a very long time and I think he's not just brilliant order and Bucky said that there's some speeches he gives that I think you know surpass Obama's. I just Airi, here he is that gifted, which is why it's why you plagiarize his wife had raised right. It is you can all go? Look that up and out, but it's not it's not just his oratory. There are mean he devised story. He grew up poor south side of Chicago in poverty, with a single mom, you know worked his way out of poverty, got great education to term governor of Massachusetts. Really strong record Massachusetts. Also. You know some things in the record that are more controversial and from a management standpoint, but you know in terms of policy winds. He had quite a few as it to term Governor Massachusetts. You know, and then he of course he has his record where he is running these so

impact funded ban, which it social impact, so that's good, but its bain so not so good. You know business business ties that will surely come up, but he you know one of the reasons. I've always liked of all is like Barack Obama, like Beto O'Rourke? There is a real disdain for the bullshit of politics and the game of politics, and there is there's a distance from like These are not people who follow every twist of every narrative or are looking at all their comments on social media right there is hope is that which I hope is not doing enough to exactly so. There is a what I believe is a healthy disdain for politics and, like you said there is not this like

driving ego and need to be affirmed by getting votes right. It is it is. I want to do this because I think it's the right thing to do, but the downside of having that disdain for politics is, you can hate the game of politics so much that you don't put enough thought into how we work to play it, and when it, I think, our old boss, even though you didn't like the game, oppose that much you know understood he was. Sedative enough, and he understood I need a plan and strategy twin. I need to put it in place anytime. The right people like he had all that Beto O'Rourke did not have that right. He did. He did not think hard enough about how he was going to wonder what his message was. And might like. I'm with you, I think, if devolve had announced, early on. I think he would have been a formidable contender. I at this late stage, watching the primary as we have. I just I wonder: how are you going to get the media ten

like what policies are you going to propose that we haven't heard? Yet what message are you going to deliver that we haven't heard. Yet. I, like you, said how to get in the debate stage. I like he's already misfiring deadlines in Alabama and dumb are. Saw a right, and so you know I think it's And he acknowledges in his interviews today that it's going to be a really tough path, but I'm very curious about this one about why he decided to do this and and what his plan is, because it's It's a bit of a mystery. The only thing I'd say all the people who are mad that he's getting in the way is. Anyone can run Right at the point where the vote, will decide right. If there is some giant appetite for Deval, Patrick or Michael Bloomberg, Princeton same then they will the donors in the polling support to get on the rate stage, and if there is not, they won't

talking to come at the cost of anyone else. Someone can make an argument that Bloomberg could be. Spending is money on something else, as they can with dire in your whole timidly that the choice of american style, make end you have to analyze that the context of all the money they spend on all kinds of other good things to help democrats are progressive issues. If you wants to run he can run. I think that's true devolves or of any one else who wants to get it and then the voters will decide it. Does it affect the other people yeah he's. The voters have photos of agency here I am so over, like the twitter fury every time someone jumps in the race like we who care like you sat like Everyone can run in the democratic primary. If you are good, you will win. If not, you won't that's how this works right, like you're upset by one person who thought that the who decided that they were going to get into the race- and that was Howard Schultz, because he was going to run as a third party,

run as an independent and then potentially tip the election to Donald Trump. It was incredibly dangerous for Howard Schultz to think about entering the race. We said at the time if our children running as a Democrat, we wouldn't be nearly as angry, and you know that's how I felt about, I'm sorry, jumping in the race. That's how I felt about my Bloomberg, jumping in the race that I feel about Deval, Patrick jumping into the race right. Like I just don't see any of this is cause for alarm, or you know credible disdain for these people. Like I just let's, people run in, and you know, and also, if you're one of the can. Who's in the lead who's, not one of these people. It really will make you a better candidate to hear different arguments from different kinds of people and to try to overcome those arguments in Perry them and then just it'll make you a better candidate to have more competition, and so you know I don't think anyone should should fear this, and I think you know everyone should like. Let's, let's hear it all has to say, let's hear my Bloomberg has to say.

That's you know I will say, this I on Monday. There is something that does bother me about. We get to hear what might Bloomberg has the same. We get to hear a times fire has to say because they are billionaires, and so therefore that money has bought them speech. But that is a larger problem with the campaign finance that that we have there. But beyond that like go head waters, warm everyone, jumpin, and to the people who say it was unfair because all these other cases been running for a year. Yes, it is semma it'll? Be the voters to decide whether that is the habit, how to assess that unfair advantage or disadvantage. Everyone look at it and just people but will decide and there's the history of people getting late has, I think, almost never yeah worked out. Maybe this will be different, but Rick West Clark, Rick, Perry, Fred Tom,

send there's an array of people who jumped in late I think the one thing we should note that the erosion of Democrats are satisfied with the field has generated except have a complaint. Is there to many candidates, but so that's a hurdle for these Kennedy. When I get it and will see what happens, That's all we have for today thanks again to Neal Katyal for joining the pod, and we will see you next week by everyone by positive Merrick as a product of cricket media. The senior producers Michael Martinez, our seas, producers. Jordan, Waller its mixed in did by Andrew Chadwick Kyle said: when is our sound engineer, thanks to Carolyn Resta Tom, you so many turn came off. Production support into our digital team alive. Co normal Conan, Yell Freed in Milo Camp? Who film and upload these episodes as a video every week.