Sometimes it feels like american society if not the whole world is falling apart. The ocean is on fire. People are fighting. airplanes and, worst of all, every movie seems to be a remake of a remake of a marvel at him and when you feel that way, it honestly becomes pretty hard to care about the nuts and bolts modern limit. But the more I thought about it. The more have come to believe that the onslaught of grim news can just as easily serve as a driver for arming people with the knowledge they need to make things better. If only a little man, I'm brain boiler every week on positively dreadful guests, and I will break down an issue that is contributing to your earnings and tap into the power of understand, new episodes of positively dreadful premier, each riding with an unhappy podcast spotify or wherever you get your podcast pod save america is brought about zip recruiter. It takes all kinds of talent to keep workplace running smoothly. Take the white house example, we all know about the standard, whitehouse role secretary, speechwriters, cancel, etc. But did you know that the way

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that zip recruiter, dotcom slush c r, o o k e zip recruiter, is the smartest way to higher. I welcome to pod, save america, I'm john fabric, I'm dyin pfeiffer, onto show the world awaits for a manhattan jury to indict donald trump, strict scrutiny

I've been joins to break down the strength of Alvin brags case in tiny de pokes trump. He continues to shrink in the polls. Speaking of speaking of the trailer has dropped for an exciting new eight part series from crooked, and I heart radio called stiffed, which is about the rise and fall of viva. The erotic magazine for women, started by porn king publisher, bob gucci only in nineteen. Seventy three, whose jennifer remilly need takes you on a wild ride through the story that rocked the publishing world with a team of feminist writers and editors behind it, Viva had full frontal male nudity dan, that's penises besides a fashion section run by anna winter and cover stars like Bianca jagger, but were they doomed to fail from the beginning,

Trailer is out now. First, it was her drugs march thirtieth. This is a really fun great series, so excited to check it out. Listen on all the podcast platforms, I gotta lotta, dick jokes and just in the housekeeping I look ice read the housekeeping. This morning I set an over under my head of how far you get through it before you sort of cracking up a new review. by far the integration of your true podcast professional, forget, get good I'll, get to the news. I dont know if you ve heard, but it seems like donald trump may have gotten himself. Into a bit of a pickle. We are patiently waited for a grand jury in manhattan to indict Lee twice impeached front runner for the republican nomination on criminal charges for paying hush money to porn star.

Stormy Daniels. The jury met on monday, but we learned today Thursday, that they will be meeting again until next week for some unspecified reason, which means that next week, as the earliest and indictment could come, but already, according to the new york times, trump has been preparing for his likely arrest by telling people he is excited about a potential perk, walk and even mused whether he should smile for the cameras. Meanwhile, without knowing any details about the potential chargers or evidence against trump huh republicans are threatening to investigate Manhattan district attorney, Alvin brag, while the paid liars over at fox or coming up with some pretty creative defenses of their guy. He represents seventy four million americans and if he's the nominee you're, putting seventy four million votes and present sediments like this would have you think of them are common both among famous people, celebrities and incorporate america.

In this case, you can believe whatever side you want to believe, but paying people not to talk about things. Hush money is ordinary. In modern america, there's no prove trump slept with stormy no baby and trump didn't use campaign funds. There is no crime here. The only potential crime here mark is that donald trump of extortion, victim on a book keeping charge, he put a payments one woman in the legal column that was in the wrong column, hitler the dossier in the same column, and she got a fine. I think this is ongoing. low over because I don't see any way that their actually gonna get donald trump to appear.

or indictment or any type of card. If you're going to arrest the present their better, be a dead body or a suitcase full of cash earth kill me says a suitcase full of dead bodies. That's it that's! The new standard, suitcase full of dead bodies is the only way the trump could. Actually justifiably Be charged with anything is that a thing they kill me, it says: do they keep it was. It was the context for that. I mean you know

who among us hasn't paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to silence the porn star. We had an affair with in order to win a presidential election and if they can come after donald trump for that they can come after you. For that too, then great, that's where we are, so you wisely suggested that before we dive into the politics, we we take a step back and talk about the moment we're in right now. The front runner for the republican nomination for president is on the cusp of being charged with a felony, and not only is he staying in the race. Most of the party is sticking with him, despite the possibility that he'll be charged with even more serious crimes that include trying to overturn the last election by sending a violent mob to congress. Is this where you thought the country would be we I started the show seven years ago. Can we put a pin in the seven years thing cause? I want to have a longer conversation about that some day

during our last hours that word well into our second term. You and me with keep it at sixteen under it. I don't know trumps, gaming in the polls. I wonder what will happen. We argue that in years later, this is what happened in the city. The point here is that, this situation, you just described about a man under multiple criminal investigations likely to be arrested any day. Now being the front runner of the Republican, therefore, basically a coin slip away from returning white house in a couple years is the perfect statement about. How we got from to begin with and that the forces that brought us tromp haven't gone anywhere, that we have this deeply radicalizing republican party. That is exists in a it's dopey and inviting media environment of propaganda and disinformation with declining trust in institutions, a mainstream media that has been absolutely

I did in terms of its a bit. Its region is credibility to be an arbiter of facts in reason in truth and that the work It was on that even if tromp goes to jail at the end of this, even if Rhonda santa's winds, this primarily Joe Biden, bees vote. That is those forces no exist, are bigger than trump and they are gonna, be what we ultimately have to confront, and it is, I guess, what seven years later. We're still a podcast for a small part of this. Get over. That fact, that's a lot of yours. I mean we have been hearing for months that they Republican savage man is finally done with trump. They don't think they can win with them. They have to move on, save us, rhonda santas and here's the guy who just lost them. The presidency and the mid terms about to get arrested for one of potentially many felonies. So naturally they all took the opportunity to really twist the knife. This is a political witch hunt perpetrated by

one of the far left radical socialist district attorneys in Alvin bragg. There is no limit, no end to the limits they will go to to go after donald trump. What happens here is that president trump will be stronger at the end of the day, but the damage to the law may last for decades. It almost looks like it's an effort to track but at the very least it's another example: two tier system of justice. I just wrote a book a couple of months ago in exactly this topic: it's called justice corrupted how the left has a nice, the legal system. I do every week pod cast verdict which had crews. Yesterday's part cast is an hour long deep. I have on the legal issues explaining why the facts and law are utterly bogus. Talk about fucking sanctimonious I mean forget about ronda senses is the fucking tip. I wrote a book and I also host a podcast

John just sleigh role. There buddy candidates close the whole. That is not how I preface my tape by the way it's exactly this budget offer? Then all you've got to be at that look. This is a competitive content environment. I bet they're promoting your stuff. What is wrong with these people forget about like we started with the moral implications of the republican party standing by a potential criminal, but just from just if you do the pure politics, pure politics, and there are a number of republicans not all of them, but a number of them who are like we can't win with donald trump. We need that we need trump's policies without the trump baggage. This is it. This is your opportunity why? Why? What's wrong with them?

as they are craven cowardly, chuckle heads with the strategic sense of plankton like they just they keep doing this same thing over like it's like a muscle memory. They're, just like, oh god, something happened to trump. We gotta, we gotta defend them. We gotta defend them There is some short term discomfort, over moving away from trumpet any moment right after the first impeachment, the second impeachment the access hollywood january. Six though potluck dinner with nazis. Whatever it is like at any moment, you can do it, but you can, take some shit in the short term, but they all believe we know this from reporting. We know this from just common sense of these republicans believe that Joe Biden is incredibly beatable and twenty four and donald trump of all. The candidates given the least best chanced to be your mind on that accurate assessment, but that's what they believe and they want the presidency, but they can't stomach the short term discomfort.

of having shown headed the elder, tucker, karlsson, yellow, jew or charlie, shop at your door or whatever to do the opposite and everyday if the same mistake over and over again he's never going to fall under his own weight. You have to move away, you have to make x, take a stand and they cannot do what they will not doing and everytime. They don't do it. It gets more difficult to do it. The next time I mean just to try something out. You know I'm not going to comment on an ongoing investigation. Nothing has happened yet and in our justice system, you're innocent until proven guilty. So I continue to stand by donald trump until we know it like that, even if you are one of if you don't want to get any shit from trump or the base-

mega media. You could say something like that, but instead they're like we are going to where we're not just standing by donald trump, we're going to investigate a local prosecutor for an indictment that hasn't yet arrived, and it like we're going to we're going to take federal funds away from the manhattan district, attorney's office, the law and order party, we're going to say no manhattan district attorney because he may go after he may indict our guy, it's wild their return. I have I have in front of me, but did you see the ran Paul tweet? Those two said: yeah the for the hip, the prosecutes, I like the prosecution of donald trump is when the greatest abuse of power of all time, the press view should be thrown in jail. Yes Actually it says it all about the Republicans right there? It's not, and it's not hypocrisy, because this is where we are. We get. We've talked about this before we get into the hip like no one cares about you when you point out someone's hypocrisy, it is basically just like no, no, no, we have a different set of rules for us

We get to win all the time we get to do whatever we want. We are above the law and you're, not everyone else's. It is down and those of us who were donald trump, loyal followers and then its everyone else is the enemy, and we can do it every want to the enemy. That's it that's the bats. that's a thought. I'm no, I know you're gonna get into the legal analysis with earlier, but what do we know about what happens next and just from a political logistics standpoint like how a criminal defendant runs for president being tried for a felony. Let's start lasorda logistics. Here's what happens! The grand jury renders an indictment donald trump, either gets arrested or tourism self in at which point he strip naked and he has marched down six avenue game of throwing sky all now you just now you just trying to get this way just wait.

And what he watched his march essex avenue game, a throne style where all of the people who made this happen. the stars, the resistance get you yell, shaven him, mauler co me The crass in stiens, the guy symbolically on river. She has the gym costume, shows up at the end of shells and the questions like eleven out a host of the prison I think he's in every case by the might be by refusing to represent here is that we might get invited In other words, logistical support, support to be self aware. Yes, ok, so that's that's! What's gonna happen what war, but it will really happen, is what happens to most bridge famous quickly why people who get charged and arrest for crime? Is there will probably not be up her work? It will be handled quietly, seems able spend the largest amount of money they ve ever spent for copying the mugshots, which hopefully will succeed.

ah, and that my jaw will then might that much. I will then appear on tee shirts that Donald trump cells to benefit his campaign and wearing them for and crooked balls herself you heard it merged in another one? and your whole. These outflank risk and well just go out his life campaigning for president attacking the prosecutor, who was trying to charter to prosecute him for these groups and that's that and then, when we know what, if you know there is a debate scheduled unease like I can get to the debate, have a court hearing you do. I do wonder there could be some and we're just talking about the one felony. Now I mean we could he could be under, he could be having multiple trials. He could be telling that he could be telling alvin bragg. I can't show up at court because I'm gonna get down a fault in county and rain, there that's a way

likely. It presents a set of political complications which we have talked about and we'll talk about. The Emily very like a trial could be going on in the fall of twenty twenty four when he is most be campaigning or around a debate stage or at the convention. May I frankly think that's an ambitious young judge should consider him a flight risk and put an ankle, monitor on him and keep him president trump and trump tower for awhile. He probably like that. Just keep at mar a lago

it has been for the last year anyway, gotta keep them in your state. It's a state crime, get him out of florida, alright, so we're obviously out of the prediction business, but I do want to get your take on a few of political prognostications quote. The prosecutor in new york has done more to help donald trump get elected president than any single person in America today, that is south carolina sen, lindsey, graham here's another one. You are about to increase the odds that donald trump will win another four years in the white house dramatically, maybe even decisively. That is a disgrace former pundit mark helper. So here's my question for you. How many undecided voters do you think will get off the fence now that they can finally support someone who may be a convicted felon by election day. During that's what the swing voters were looking for there like a scene, Donald trump since two thousand and sixteen yeah not sure about him, waiting for him to get arrested. There's my guy that's exact

We want a small handful of people and diners frequented by new york times, reporters think and we'll talk ass. When there's no attempts reporters go there to inject. Jeremy. Peters has talked oliver. Yes, I think we need to their allotted since having other. We don't do that. I think this in an an unprecedented situation, the politics are complicated to clean the republican primary, but we should just stipulate that being indicted for a crime is never is not gonna help you. Not just a question of garbage. It just watch him how much it hurts you. It is not gonna make it We're likely to be friends is not gonna, make more likely to be the nominates. It's just a question of whether enough people will care to penalize them enough to have him not be the nominee. That is the simple factor yeah. No, I think it's it's ludicrous to suggest that some. This will help him

in a general election becoming so that's it. Then that is the most obvious in iraq for just a million reasons. None the less of witches that people have largely made up their minds about donald trump and the insurrection and a whole bunch of other shit have basically moved his pole numbers within a tiny margin for the last six or seven years, and the idea that indict the indictment will actually lead some people to the poles, who have an already supported donald trump in the last couple. Elections is just it's. It's baffling is baffling now Let's talk about the dynamic in the republican primary cause, I do think there's some interesting stuff there to talk about. Other republicans and lots of pundits have predicted that getting arrested as the law and order candidate will only help trump in the republican primary, where voters are prone to believe that this is just another democrat witch hunt to destroy their favorite republican president for some affair. What do you think about that? I think that is also pickled cow,

see brain take once again being arrested, is never gonna help you politically, it's not. It is a complicated, but he said to company donald trump campaign. Logistically, but also politically, because whenever you have a primary to choose a nominee to run against a sitting president be dominant issue, the one that trumps everything ideology, morality, everything else is elected, billowy and donald trump facing criminal prosecution. She facing criminal prosecution in the fall of the election you're crazy, pretty strong, elect debility argument for his opponents to make against him I'll give you the other argument gigantic. He made me other arguments right. I don't actually believe So please don't tag me with them. Okay, now Elisha is racist. This is the kite right here: seminars where someone on twitter, the other he was like hey. Why did you? When did you become such a big run to santa's fan? a huge falconry- I man are you anyway, you defended vigorously I'd, take us about

trying to play a role here. I'm trying to give some people some interesting arguments since we don't, we don't have any republicans likely are okay on this one.

This is this'll, be the electability argument and trump's already trying to say this, which is ah trump, is the one that Democrats fear most, which is why the democrats and the liberal establishment and the media they're all trying to take donald trump down, and this is whatever you think about donald trump. This is a massive injustice and it's a political prosecution and they're going after him and so they're going after you and then you know you got a bunch republican voters who are alike and again there's like the trump fans we're not going to matter for theirs. The people who've decided were all in under santa or some one else. We don't want trump and then there's like the the swing voters in the republican primary who's like a I like trump, but I'm unwilling to entertain alternatives, ah and I'm, but I'm not sold on to santas, but I'm thinking about it and for that those people. The argument would be well they're coming after trump and they they want to get trump and, and I'm going to stand with him. This is the argument that, by I,

ross do have made this argument, and if I go to your time than I did find it super compelling. But it was an argument I mean the point here is on its own. It does not help trop first or on its own. It doesn't and his campaign either how tromp handles it in rhonda scientists handles at which we will talk about he's dictate this ad We do now in the past that donald trump, when He is the centre of attention. and the centre of a controversy where a bunch of the people that republican voters is identified as the wrong kinds of people line up against p strengths is why his numbers went up during impeachment and why his numbers with republicans, went up after the f b I raid on mar a lago, and so that could happen.

again in the short term, but how ron de santis handles it? How trump behaves will determine the end result here is the actual impact we're not going to know the impact of this for a month. Speaking that there may be a quick, we now bump in numbers. It could be real. Could we should sit in school noise after an arrest, but there is a long term impact you're in it can't be viewed just in a vacuum, because there are charges potentially to come on the arrests, things- are going to have it and Well, the question is: does the foot is the full weight of that too much as it make trump seem like a loser, because in republican politics, loser is much worse than criminal yeah? Oh yeah yeah, and I do think I mean the other. The other side of that argument for those swing republican voters is just what you said, which is they

they're like I still like donald trump. Maybe I think the prosecution was unfair, but, like ugh we gotta win. We gotta beat Joe Biden we're going to disguise getting indicted for all these things. Why not just go with Ronda santas? That's that's the other side of that argument. How much you think it matters politically that breaking campaign finance laws is a less serious crime than hiding nuclear secret. in your beach house or plotting a coup that that ended up by turning violence against members of congress, if you needed evidence, There is not some giant top down deep state conspiracy against donald trump. It would be that this crime is coming first because it by fought this is. It is very serious and very real railroad impact, but When you lay them all out. You have a seven year old as old as this part, seven year old, what crime em, in public crime emanating from personal conduct compared to deeply.

Dangerous handle them classified information. While president and engineering a violent, what against united states this clearly has less substantive moral and political impact than the other two, and if we were designing this, this would not come first. become last. Does it mean is not significant as a mediation be held accountable for it? Just from a purely political point of view, This is the easiest wine for republican voters looking for reason, a stick with trump to use as permission structure, I don't know, I think it's a nice little appetizer now you these in a mood he think lose, You get what you look at alvin brag dates. The guy the world doesn't end, knock knock, knock it I would, and then, where are we

ready for fulton county we're ready for what's coming next, we we already got one under our belt. That's what I'm say. Look. I also think I don't love minimizing this crime just because relative to hiding nuclear secrets from the government and staging a violent coup. It is not as bad because it's not just I mean yes, it stems from personal conduct, like you said but it's it's cheating, it's it's cheating in the election, fun here why it is it's! You know like that's why we have campaigned finance laws. Were donald trump tried to do as I can, because I'm rich, I can take a hundred couple hundred thousand dollars and by this woman cycle and even though you're only supposed to donate x amount of money to your campaign, I'm gonna blow through that and then I'm gonna lie about it because I'm trying to win the selection and like just because we now think that down from

the way with everything- and we think- oh well, if the stormy Daniels story had come out couple of weeks after access hollywood, I wouldn't really matter that much in donald trump. Many still when we don't know that and that's why you have campaign finance laws, because the campaign finance laws like no, you can't spend that much money to silence someone and you can't hide the reporting of it. So it's like a real. I mean it was him trying to cheat an election which he always does yeah. It is that the argument on the politics here is two things one: it's the fact that donald trump is corrupt cad. Is that a new piece of information to people right very both of those we the actual evidence of the political impact of alleged crimes of similar nature to the other two charges right. We have seen much different, very poorly covered by the press, The handling of alleged classified information can weigh down a campaign as it didn't. You doesn't sixteen and we know from twenty twenty two that key

its involvement in january, six in pushing the big. Why there's a documented fact hurt them in that those elections, and so we just it's not that it's not serious. It is quite serious. It's just from from a political salience point of view. I think you can very credibly argument. That is the least salient of the three crimes. The fact of the arrest is a big deal. Regardless of the crime, the parts of america. is brought you buy outer known giver. Overwhelmed by all the green products and marketing of their it's hard to know what brings you can trust one brand crooked media trusts his outer known Utter known as the first brain, founded on total commitment to sustainability afternoon offers extremely trouble and stylish men's and women's clothing. Every product they make has planet, first mentality, meaning material,

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So the other big from crime news this week was an appeals court order that his lawyer, Evan corcoran, has to testify in the classified documents case, because attorney client privilege doesn't apply when you help your client commit a crime. The appeals court upheld a federal judges, finding that the government made a prima facie showing that the former president committed criminal violations that was from their federal judges order. How do you think an indictment in this case in the many other trump investigations, fulton county, the other jack Psmith investigations around january. Sixth, I believe the manhattan arrived in new york state has some other business investigations. They're doing there's something about truth, social and the ssc is the multiple but there is a civil raped trials that going guys. Now you that's another one so

Do you think additional indictments chickens? The political calculus is a a question. I will tell you things just amazing that in a basically year and a half period downward from said two different liars from committee. Different crimes is the second time legacy of course don't white undue attorney client it is now having twice what you did for liars do different crimes which is just wild? We know from The point that republican voters still like trump I high already that he was a great president, its asked a question of whether all of this noise ways him down in the more. miss you have the more or less you have the more trials you have. The more noise is reminds people of the baggage and it s.

Emboldens rhonda santa's case to be the alternative. Trumpet other handcuffs essentially has picked up a good girl. I hope, your listening to Sanders campaign we do not want to help under understand. Just John make is a huge dissatisfied. Look at some point. We will literally lose a lot of people have to actually pick between russian. One of that we do not live work. I know that fine, with another four years of trump that's

so you're, saying that your position on this sort of fluid alright. So not a lot of Democrats except for us, are talking about trump's impending arrest, Joe Biden isn't, should he be? I don't think so, but I figured I'd: ask you: if not, should some Democrats be making the case that, if not, you know hitting trump for these charges at least hitting republicans in congress for trying to investigate a state prosecutor, because they think Donald trump is above the law? I do not think Joe Biden should talk about this. I think it complicates even the

It is not a federal case where, where the prosecutors essentially worked for Joe Biden a complicates things, it probably helps trump for germane to be commenting on it. So he he, I can't imagine he would do it. He won't do it. There will be people arguing he should do it. I think those people will be mistaken. I think Democrats should make the case that republicans are focusing on all of this dumb stuff, on protecting donald trump on and on investigating the investigators. Instead of doing all the things people actually want them to do wait: raising wages, lowering costs, making healthcare more affordable, averting the debt ceiling crisis. That is coming all of those things that people we know, people care about that they're not doing they can do all this other stuff in the service of politics, for donald trump for maga republicans, I think that's the case to make yeah. I just think that- and I don't think that a Democrat talking about this outside of Joe Biden with your agree like he, he can't just be getting into a prosecution. I don't think that, like l,

bates it in the media as much as the facts of the case. Yet have you no? I president, having arrested it's up, it's right. That's gonna, like you can either democrat go out in front of the cameras and and and say that got the news that then there's alright. Let's talk about the other major political figure who hadn't weighed in on trump's impending arrest. Until this week, governor ron

sanctimonious a k, a meatball wrong, a k, a tiny de here's. What he finally had to say. I dont know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to to secure silence over some type of alleged affair. I just I can't speak to that, but what I can speak to is that if you have a prosecutor who is ignoring crimes happening every single day and its jurisdiction- and he chooses to go back many many years ago to try to use something about how porn star hush money payments, that's an example of pursuing a political agenda. I do appreciate that he said points hush money payments multiple times, and that answer it was like you. You know what I'm thinking about their I do. I do. Does it

law was at amazon bc hit yet back at me, back in the o eight campaign primary when billy she he eat meat tried to insinuate that Barack Obama once did cocaine, and then mark penn just said it multiple times and MSNBC. If he had, I dunno what you're talking about, I didn't say: did cocaine. What are you talking about cocaine? What are you obama, cocaine, and that was what ran dissenters just that so all in selectively go look at it to the classic tiny de later sat for an interview with p piers morgan for an interview with a fox streaming service that he also run up and then your post, what a sentence the headline was in the new york posed for appears a story run to scientists, rips trumps character, chaotic leadership style. Here's what he said. One of the difference,

between you and me. Obviously, here that the approach to covered with was different, I mean you, I would have fired somebody like fouch e. I also think, just in terms of my approach to leadership in I get personnel. In the government who have the agenda of the pit. ball and share our agenda. So the way we run the government, I think, is no date. The drama focus on the big picture and put points on board your favorite nickname terms, given you so was it run run the sanctimonious or meat Well, I don't know how to spell the sanctimonious. I don't really know what it means, but I you know I kind of like it's long. It's got a lot of vow, so go with that. That's fine! You can call me, and you can call me whatever you want. I mean just as long as you. You know also call The winner ripped trumps character there. What do you think you're, a tiny d? strategy. I just want to say that every time I hear Rhonda santa's his voice is like the first time all over again. It's always

it is like it now it doesn't get less annoying over time it just your consular, shocking rain. I dont know I you know, I am a big fan of rwanda, It does, of course, felt like I dunno if that's going to wear well, that voice yeah you're right, you do reindeer santas with the on mute with the subtitles on when you want and you watch when you watch your boy yeah way back in the day. You may have been there for this, but when he watched a focus group the new house republican majority, and they played a lot of footage of Eric canter. He's got other one, but with a voice and the focus group crowd just revolted against air cancerous rice I really feel like that's how it's gonna play for run santas and anyway, we do substantive criticism here. No no fear today. I like an understanding with the voters care about, saint, its greatness in its bed nets anyway. So what do they get where you can go to sit here? You know he put out a little birdie areas used if he's doing a little

how little kneeling of drunk at- and I will say for him by the way before you answer sorry like a little, does go a long way with the press like to Santa said that in the interview which I think we can all agree is pretty mild, and then your posts wrote it up as descent his ribs his character. I mean that is going to happen a thousand times, and he should be savvy enough to know that, because the press is always spoiling for a fight between politicians their particularly spoiling for a fight between randy status and donald trump for a whole host of reasons? What I I think, as a strategy this is you have you see, reason what does into said their gives us is of course, strategy. This campaign, like I bet in a whiteboard, The scientists headquarters to be it is that it's. How do you, if the year your lane is trump without the backing of the handcuffs whatever.

and you're going to be less chaotic and you're going to you have to find one issue to differentiate yourself on. That issue is obviously covered, because it's the place where you are known, for terrible reasons for your quote, unquote success. Think of it. Where are the republican party? Success is measured by lives? Oh not life saved, and I let a bunch people die. That's it that's what I'm runnin non answer you picked out. She writes a like that makes all. That is the strategy, but I feel like Scientists needs to show not tell you you're you're, he basically read the whiteboard to the people and said you demonstrate. Those things are being so explicit about, and he walked sort of right into the trap here, where he did he was sort of with a binary choice, defend trump everyone else or uses. Any to differentiate yourself, and the worst decision of politics is not the wrong decisions, no decision and that's what he did hear you try to do both, and I think he please, no one and you see

The press coverage is shitty from all across the board ethic and by the way, something similar happened with him on ukraine, he tried to walk back his statement that his campaign put out to tuck growth and about his position on ukraine, calling it a tear it. well dispute and then with peers. He was like well Putin's a war criminal, and I did my statement was taken out of context. It's like what you know the context was. It was a fuckin written statement. Dude, we didn't take it out of context. We all read the words, so I do think it's emblematic of sort of what he's trying to straddle here in this primary look. I, as you No huge ron de santis fan clip and I have been laying out the reasons why I don't think it's a great idea for him to just go nuclear on trump this early, because there are a ton of republican voters who love donald trump, even as they are potentially open to alternatives. But even for me,

I think that that that his piers morgan interview and his stormy Daniels statement is just a little too cute by half and no tommy's makes the point that it's like de santis is showing his as being too weak and and republican voters want strength and that's why they want trump and might take us like slightly different. I don't think it's contradictory, but it's like dissent is. There sounds like a typical politician in trying to carefully criticize trump for the press and, like you said, reading the the message from the white board and trump is trying to put him in a box of typical establishment politician and he's sounding like a typical establishment politician in the way that he's criticising donald trump right now, and I think that's the if you're one of those voters who is like open to dissent is still open to supporting trump again, you kind of look you listen to donald trump, just being

I will try and use in iran dissenters like do in his line about forty and covered in making a stupid joke about the vowels into sanctimonious. In your like I don't know, this guy seems a little little little typical. I think what you're seeing here is is the great challenge potential undoing of dissent as his campaign, which has trumps hardcore base. The one can deliver him. The nomination in the winner takes all primaries of the republican party is maggot their dedicated to him personally, and they are mega through it. The universe of voters who are open to rhonda santas, which makes up probably Sixty five percent of the republican party. They are ideologically coherent. Some of them are more traditional republicans, who would certainly pick a republican over Joe Biden, but are uncomfortable term for a variety of reasons. Use reason he flipped on Ukraine is because he's got a whole bunch of people, including huge donors, who think that the report

gains, should return to their neo conrad's and be tough on russia, so he flips there. You have people who think that who was all the soft donald trump did just think he wasn't effective at it. So you want you want all the maga staff with more efficacy. Unless CAS you, people who wine returned to some of not Paul ryan, like entitlement cuts, but more additional tax cuts in trade in trying to use, it's that anti tromp or Two scientists, curious coalition together, can be very, very challenging for him and he's not doing a very definitely early in the process here. What would you have advised dissent is to do this week just chill the fuck out. He is interview it does not say much at all what I think, what his peers more. In their view, his statement feels very active The narrative is in it's borne out in the polling that donald trump has gained ground on to scientists. That trump has ascended. The santos is falling, and I think that is an accurate fact

that is being attributed to the fact that donald trump is lashing out at rhonda. Santas left and right into santa's has not been responding, but that's not the point. Does not act showed that's. Why trump is gaining in scientists is falling defences. Rebuilding ratings are better than trumps They have not taken ahead, even as he's been losing ground in the head to head his his favour, billy rating quite high in his unfavourably rating is very low and islamic republic about yet. So that's the key point which that means that voters are returning to trump not because they ve learned information that they dont, like about russia, santas they're, just being wrong. I did why they like donald trump, that he is he hasn't been involved in sums for some sort of major embarrassment recently like losing the primary or dying with canada, I saw that he has just owning the news like he does so well, and rendition

was everywhere right after the referendum in terms and he's faded into the background, and so you don't be reactive term. I think in this case I would have just gone out The prosecutor, if I was running out, I would have said as little as possible just going after the prosecutor and sent on focused on my way to slave secondary x Y Nancy, like this is a long game play the longing here understand why you are fading and its. because you're not responding to drop its cash evident ass, your companion, I would maybe speed up my time frame the trade get this going and have tried to find in front of us and high profile moments that remind people why they like me. They had nothing to do with tromp during the course of this legislative session, but I think there be he's being reactive, he's not handling be first bit of turbulence. Well, and just like relax for a second. You there's only to be we're. Gonna win this primary donald trump around a status. You're still the other person and there's no need to panic gesture. I think to you

earlier point about how the republican party is fine with criminal, but they don't like a loser like I think, if Rhonda santa's does not start defining donald trump as a loser, rhonda centres will be a loser. Like he's just gotta, I think and he doesn't have to just come right out now and say, like the guy's. The biggest loser, though, and that'll be interesting. I think just like every time. Donald trump attacks him. Every time he's asked about donald trump. Just have this sort of like a it's sort of sad, it's sort of pathetic. You know like I'm, I'm focused on my stuff and you know donald trump. He is he's a great president wants, but I you know he sort of he's struggling for relevance. He's got all these indictments, it's just it's sort of sad, it's sort of set. You know, like I think, he's gotta put him in a loser box and right now, a it. Just doesn't it I dunno. It seems like it's. It's too cute by half and it's too subtle what he's doing. I think it's actually the opposite of subtle. I think it's to just

transparently, political, the agitated, very political, it is normal related for people who are tunic were like tuned in lagos right familiar because they have no fucking idea. The diet, but yeah he's he's getting the worst of getting the worst of all worlds. He is pleasing. No one he's getting, all the downside, none of the upside- and he just has to this The question is not face. The real political turbulence in his life and how you handle that like when we were for obama right, if the I hear

the two thousand and eight parallels to this, but the santas is like obama, in the sense that he is completely fresh on the national stage, and it is it untested proposition of how we'll handle the tremendous pressure in glare and scrutiny of a presidential campaign, and if he does, if he is possible, he can't handle it it's very possible. We can't we're going to find that out pretty quickly here, and he hasn't had anything like this because he's been in Florida only talking to maga friendly press outlets and just like holding press conferences where he fucking owns the lips. You know like. If that's that's the only clips people see then like yeah republicans are going to like him, but when he has to actually sit sound. Do interviews. Do press conferences do all this kind of shit like that's the real test, it's so funny that right now we're talking about him being completely in safe spaces and we're talking about him venturing out into dangerous territory by speaking too slowly,

lee more pro trot magda media people is now the grass batteries s sitting down with the ghost of TIM Russia. For me, the prices are fixed. It sets an fits you might have to talking either do see or something people to a boy tiny day. Ok, when we come back down we'll talk too strict scrutiny is lippman about a case against donald trump pots of america, answer. By better help getting to know yourself can be a lifelong process, especially because we're always growing and changing therapy is all about deepening your self awareness and understanding, because sometimes we don't know what we want or why we react the way we do until we talk through things better help connect you with a licensed therapist. Who can take you on that journey of self discovery from wherever you are? If you're,

im starting therapy give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge. Let's talk a little bit about therapy gas. Let's talk about it, you know what got rid of the prompts while we're just going to freely about araby? Let's big, really, you know it's helping me was helping anyone around wound they're getting through. That look at no reason to complain about that. You think therapies, great! You can talk it out with someone, there's that show an apple does that show an apple or the cardigan shrinking shrinking shrinking. I like that, show. What's one out of context, then your therapist said to you this week. Mine is maybe I just have to give up on that with you yeah If mine is, I can see it makes you uncomfortable your hands are folded. Oh wow was that about tommy yeah. It was by tommy, if you're thinking of starting therapy

if better help try its entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a bridge the questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapists and switch therapists any time for no additional charge discover your potential with better help visit better help, dot com, slash p s a today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, h e l, p, dot com, slash, p essay. We are eagerly awaiting the potential indictment arrest of donald trump here to break down the legal cases, we'll admin, the hosts of crook, it's fantastic legal pike, s, strict scrutiny, leah welcome, back the pod thanks, rodney Julia Donald trump said he was gonna, get arrested on tuesday. The press lot it'll be Wednesday. We were hoping would be today. Do you have any sense of what the delay is with the grand jury vote on a potential indictment? I mean we always knew we needed to take him Firstly, not literally said that there was a little beside the point, but basically the way grand jury proceedings. Work is

panel grand jury in that grand jury. Here's a bunch of ricky says, but it might not actually, it on days it was scheduled and though there proceedings are actually public, so the grand jury was an actual if he did, I think either on tuesday or maybe even wednesday, and it looks like thursday is the first day in which they're actually going to sit down here cases and decide whether to issue indictments so it's really about the scheduling of the grand jury in the secrecy of those proceedings, This may be sad, sounds like a crazy question, but do we have any reason to believe the indictment is actually imminent other than donald trump's, postal and true social or are we going off of wishful thinking, or something like that. I think it is largely based on things that her coming from his candid part, because grand jury proceedings are generally see read, I mean we don't necessarily know whether someone has been indicted unless they make it public or until they ve been arrested. Now, having said that there

has been some suggestion and piece of evidence other. Why is that? Some things are happening? You know interviewing other people close to the trump camp and other people seeming, we are being asked. Questions are becoming involved in this new york based investigation in a way that it looked like it had died down. You know a few years, So there are some pieces robber evidence enough for his statements. in general. What happens after the indictment just help us understand the process to us, like their non lawyers, that we are well, he get frog marched. Will there be the pearl? america deserves how soon can a trial just what the basic process here chairs? after an indictment? There will be a determination about whether you know someone will be. How old, before trial or during trial- and that might be a point at which an arrest happens. There will then be a charming asia about whether some will be held with or what

doubt bail. You know before trial and then there will be a trial. Unfortunately, the timing on these things is all over the map. It really depends and you know what priority that prosecutors give this case relative to others, as well as what other kinds of cases they are trying to bring, and so impossible to know what sort of schedule we are looking at. You know that mckenna. Legal concern its are? You have a constitutional right to a speedy trial, but that's a pretty toothless guarantee and as long as it happens within, but they here a few years, it's gonna be fine, so it really depends on how the office tries to proceed. So there no guarantee this will happen before the election were there to be a trial. No guarantee, although you kind of have to think that they don't want this hanging over. The heads of four

some uncertain period of time and indefinite point in the future. But again that's just my own intuition an understanding of what down from his being investigated for maybe indicted for, involves hush money, payments to a woman, he had an affair with people get exchange get extra money in exchange for their silence all the time and in the course of business and in cases. Why is this one? A crime? What crime did donald trump allegedly committee here that the new york state crime as falsifying business records? So you know you have to report payments that you are making as part of your business, and you have to report them truthfully here. That is just a state requirement and the charge of falsifying business records is actually a pretty common one, that new york prosecutes all the time. But what makes this case potentially different is falsifying. Business records is typically a misdemeanour

and here it looks like they might be tried to charge him with a felony and in order to charge him with a felony, you have to show that the business records were falsified in with an intense too, who commit some other crime, and we don't totally know what that other crime is in. Oh, it might very well end up being federal action law or campaign financed violations where basically the allegation. Is they use this money for the benefit of the campaign, but didn't disclose it as such, so that the general theory falsified business records and they are true? two elevated or escalated up to a felony charge by proving that the business records were falsified in order to commit some other crime, likely violation of federal campaign, finance law, that's a federal law. This is a state case, but that works, because it's the business records most cases in service of that federal crime.

It's it's because, yes, exactly the underlying state charge is falsifying desist records. Now this, in a theory He is, admittedly, slightly untested whether the you know felony, that you are trying to conceal that new york can prosecute you, for is a federal crime for his estate. One that's a little uncertain, but it's not even clear that that is the the only crime and that they are saying he was intending to commit when he falsified these business records. There could also be state charges as well. It just so happens that that's the most likely one given that they, you know, Michael Cohen, already pled guilty to a federal campaign fund It's violation, so, in other words we're all making a whole bunch of judgments and speculation based on an incomplete set of facts is fair to say I exactly. I mean this is the world that donald trump has forced us into the mess again One parallel that people have drawn with this admittedly incomplete set of facts is to the he's against former democratic presidential candidate jeanette birds, who also

provided money to a woman with whom he had an affair. He was indicted charged taken on trial and got off. How are these cases similar or different terrorists and their similar bad. The allegation there was there was a payment made to an individual to keep them quiet and the allegation was keeping that individual, with whom John Edwards had an affair. Quiet wasn't benefits to the edwards campaign. Now there are, however, some pretty important difference says one is John Edwards defence is now, let's say as credible for donald trump, because John Edwards defense was, he wasn't keeping his affair. Why it for the benefit of his

campaign, but rather to keep it from his wife and children, as his wife was dying from cancer, and it's not just that. He said that its also that key continued to pay the woman with whom he had an affair. After the event, shan and so that gave his defence some additional credibility there. Now How believable is it that donald trump doesn't want? Anyone to know about his infidelity right, like it's just not that call the bull, and on top of that you don't have again just based, find the admittedly speculative, incomplete facts we are working with. You know a piece of evidence that suggests can continue to make these payments. You know after the election

because what he really cared about was you know public opinion or his wife's opinion or his. You know family's opinion about. You know who he was sleeping with, let's presume for a second, that the crime is the one that you suspect may be involving campaign finance violations because of the false by business records. If that is the case, how difficult a case you think that is to prosecute did? Is it doesn't give trump a real opening to get off here like what europe, which are legal analysis of the kind of case it brag, would bring under the circumstances I mean his demeanor charge into falsifying business records that seems pretty straightforward in approving the the predicate or enhancement felony seems more difficult and more difficult. In part, because it turns on what donald trump intent was an ring intent that is like what is in someone's mind is always a little bit difficult thy bidding. Frankly, particularly

who, when you're dealing with someone who's a serial wire who has like a pretty agnostic relationship with the fact and so you don't really know when all of the things are which of the things they say are actually true. And now. That being said, it can't be the case that just because someone is a perennial wire means It can never be convicted of an intent crime and a campaign, finance violation and- and here you also have the additional fact that Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to this very offense and that's got to help. The conviction so is

possible. He could be convicted yes, and is there a way in which he could get it off? Yes, I mean part of what is the atmosphere around this case is that it would have been possible. It could have been possible for a state prosecutor to bring this charge in four or five years ago. It's been possible for federal prosecutors to you know, bring a federal campaign finance charge. You know ever since we knew these facts and ever since the Michael Cohen plea- and they haven't- and I think that unfortunately, the that atmospheric aspect of the case- my color people's assessments, whether they think he is in fact a guilty, and if we were to be found guilty its life in prison right this is it threw away the key that that's all goes. You know The criminal system is in fact, overly punitive and overly harsh, but no, I actually going to be life in prison and- and you know that, there's a wide range of different punishments on that might happen just depending on whether

he's convicted of a misdemeanor or felony, and if he is convicted of the felony and what charges they bring. So it's really impossible to tell this point, but I know I don't think we're looking at. for that purpose. Well, there. You know what I am now going to put you in the position of a deeply uncomfortable hypothetical situation yeah imagine this donald trump found themselves destitute, he needs. Legal representation because a points you Jimmy pro bono attorney. How would you legal action and promise you know one whose work on trumped legal team is going to hear this so give us your best How would you defend donald trump? Were you his attorney so first erika, but instead of alternative fats? to explain why exactly my client, who is very much a family man, wanted to conceal the fair from his very young child.

And you know on top of that, I do think up. Some amount of this case is going to be decided just in the public eye, and I think you know with public messaging around why these charges are being brought now. Why they weren't broad, then that's gonna be a part of the story as well, and so my guess is that will seek into the town. I'll. As far as you know, defence allegations about prosecutor, aerial misconduct or impermissible I get oreo motives, saying like they're just out to get me. You know their predecessor decided not to prosecute me and now they're just doing so because of some bad press surrounding you know someone who left the office and was unhappy with the previous prosecutor's decisions. So you know I would definitely try and mount the John Edwards defense and definitely look into the prosecutors conduct and all those things, and then I would take a shower and I would have some difficulties with dutch gittin. Measured woods

try to plead this out as a misdemeanor without being too that is, but you know it is really hard to know exactly like what the states posture is going to be and you know, our criminal legal system is a system of please you know. Ninety eight percent of cases end up being resolved in plea deals and in the federal system. I think it's actually even higher than that, but there are always going to be some cases that prosecutors think they. you need to go to trial or want to go to trial, and this also might be a case where no the defendant tromp doesn't want to play it because you know he's not necessarily always rational in making decisions, but yeah no apply to a misdemeanor if he isn't being charged with a felony would be a pretty standard, and not that surprising way of resolving a case like this one at least out. These facts. Well, they. I hope that some days in the near future daughter was indicted so that this conversation will where well over the test of time, so that

thank you so much for joining us. It is always good to talk to you for having me, thanks. So much too, we lippman and don't forget to follow us a crooked media on instagram and tik tok, while it still around and it pod, save america on twitter subscribed to pod save america on youtube for access to full episodes in other exclusive content, and you know consider dropping us a review if you're so inclined, everyone have a great weekend will see a next week. Hopefully the end I ve been very welcome. Have a great weaker by everyone. Pod save america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy gardener. Bernstein producers are hayley muse and olivia martinez, its mixed in edited by andrew chadwick kyle.

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