Welcome back to pod, save america on tommy, these or andean pfeiffer, John favor. I was still a little under the weather today, Dan. So we're about to record what many people are calling the single best thursday pod history around roger you. called this episode. Ingeniously conceived in seamlessly executed without actually wes anderson movie review, but will try to do our best here without our our fearlessly. Therefore,

John, so on today show we got down from turning his federal indictment into a campaign event. Slash fundraiser, slash birthday party S. Horn. Does I turned seventy seven on Wednesday Dan? I think that recent raises serious questions about whether trump is too old to do the job. Don't you agree what we got. We chris christie cannonball into the sea and in town hall waters. Strict scrutiny is legally. men and dan talk about what comes next in legal processes and actual smart person in the beef I can do it workaround that we have to get one in every three to four weeks, so usually that the hosts of strict scrutiny, strict, listen, thank god for them, and then and I gotta talk about california, governor gavin newsome interview with Sean Hannity on fox news was at last night last week when, if any one has anything happen that various I think, and I want you to meet Monday,

we sunday I dunno yeah. Anyway, it was good. It was, I think they broke it into multiple parts to the shortage of milk. In that thing, for all he can but dan, because we all love california, politics. If you can get enough of them. A san francisco mayor london breed is going to be a special guest at a love it or leave. It live show at the palace of fine arts in san francisco on june. Twenty second go to crooked dot com, slash events for more info on how to get tickets, and there is still time to support our fuck bands. Leave we're kids alone funds that go to helped port organisations on the ground in states that are passing, bigoted laws, attacking trans adults and trains, youth you can choose to donate to a nonprofit fund. You can donate to the political action organisations both are great. Both are greatly appreciated, so go to vote. Save america d,

com slash fuck bands to learn more, we already had a double our golden cars were raised in so much cash. So thank you to everyone who did alright news time. So trump was arrested miami. He pleaded not guilty to thirty seven felony counts of violating the espionage act and obstruction of justice. He was fingerprinted. There were no photographs of bail, there's no gag order or travel restrictions that we know of, though the judge did say trump is not allowed to commit any more crimes before the trial. Ah, that seems unfair to me then, like in his nature, the crowd of trump fans and protesters outside the courthouse was smaller than expected, but trump did make an unannounced campaign stop at a famous qb. Restaurant before flying to bed, MR, where he held a campaign style rally. Here's a clip, Joe Biden, broke the law and so far has not got unindicted. I did every

thing right and they indicted me. So I did I love it. Trump doesn't just give like a campaign style speech about the indictment and do the fundraiser complete with teleprompter and crowd and all the trappings. They also scheduled what people in politics call in ot are at a famous cuban restaurant. That means you don't advise. The president advance you just show up. The secret service doesn't have to lock down the place. Were you surprised that the trump team turned this into just the their diana campaign trail, I'm not surprised, but I am impressed by he looked going on a campaign stop immediately after you retorted. There is filling out this delving a thumb in the area, the legal system Thirty. Seven phone accounts are for mishandling, closer informations, probably a thumb in the eye of the

terry and our intelligence professionals. All that, but probably a smart politics tromp is he wants to seem on bothered uncalled triumphant in the face of his incredibly precariousness duration. He did it, he did it after the indictment details came out of the weakening, went to waffle house in georgia and wont work. Both for everyone now is it exuberant restaurant, and I do think that in the yes trump is a self destructive prefer and which is why, in this mass, but this version of his campaign, unlike my sixteen o, my twenty twenty actually has. Some strategy surrounding cell phones from trump that are is pretty impressive, like there's an actual plan here, and he is working aggressively to maximize his political position in despite or possibly being sent to jail for decades. so I think it's a precedent. I think I tell any Democrat that I talk to you about this. Is that his

campaign. This time around has a plan in support of that plan. Yeah wheat, I should say we can't confirm reports that he wrapped up half of a sandwich to go. Some nuclear secrets, but there's some talk of that, unlike you like, legally speaking, I mean maybe this goes without saying, but I asking the guy prosecuting huh, attacking his wife, constantly commenting on a case that has been tried yet is probably a bad idea, but you're right and trump probably rightly views everything in life as a political problem, first and foremost, and I dunno. Maybe he wants to raise money. He wants to keep his supporters on sides. He wants to keep other republicans on sides and he probably thinks all he needs to do is convince one juror that I am innocent future I should say and that this is unfair. So why not go big and influence public opinion and to your point about the plan and the restaurant he went to versailles is a

famous spot for politicians to visit, and you know he's clearly appealing to a more conservative cuban community in miami stone. Crab season is over it's worth mentioning that we didn't go to Joe's but question for you Dan. He may have a little competition in the mia the cuban community. I the mayor of miami Francis Suarez, jumped into the race to day. He once suggested that the? U s should consider air strikes on cuba. Ah, he might be most famous for creating a crypto since he called my Emmi coin, which is only down ninety six percent from its peak so far, so some room grow there may also be under indictment. He also said publicly didn't vote for trump or for dissent, this. So why competitor? What you think so when you say that

ninety six percent, its dummies, its outperforming most creeper currencies that are aware hook, you listen all I see that potential, that's what I say look, I think, is his eye vague. It fritz pervert with his campaign slogan of by the dip by the de France as far as by the debt. So a guy I'll. It's like we're trumps speech. I watch did this warning on youtube? Thank you get wet. What speed did you watch it? I was gonna thank the youtube engineers for allowing to accept cause. I needed it was weird mix of sort of political rally. He clearly, like speaking it bed minster cause. It's got those white columns that look sort of like white house adjacent. You know, like the two thousand eight obama commission's vision of the others, About for those who don't aren't wild like we are there is we had columns, they looked greek everyone backed us for a while it or out orbit number anyway, it was a rally but he was also trying to fire up the crowd by explaining kind of how that presidential records that governs doctrine,

retention which it can confuse people for big stretches. He gave mild boss John Edwards out there was a lot of what about. As and when it comes to binds classified documents in hilary server, cnn and MSNBC did not take this speech live. What did you make of this thing there was so long in seattle already met worrying, and I thought actually fell bad for the people, a dead minster who were adding trapped in the room and could not out and had there was to dual. It was very reminiscent of his campaign announcements, that he did not a moral I go. I think these speeches are basically ah sort of catharsis in therapy. For trump or he just like spit out everything's, gonna, say and then there's one or two thirty seconds soundbites that he has been told by his campaign staff that he has to say, and you can see him like switch in start reading ready. the others immediately. We settle teleprompter reiterant history where's like this way and

this way and then back this way, but in It- and you know, I think, there's if he doesn't pay a price for these speeches? No one sees them see an end in nothing even want to see, never see an announcer Messina, so air of them are certainly no one who's going to make up their mind on this basis. We just goes out, says it's crazy things and that, hopefully, in the eyes of his campaigns of the one or two lines that matter to them are the ones sake you picked up by tv not bad. For the crowds egg is like them. You are going to refer this collection of some of the worst people, america's, my guess you get out. You will be founded. Bed minster rally in one piece I have good news such as it is there wasn't some. You know massive crowd. There wasn't a violent protest. Does it make you feel better? Do we think, like the series of headlines by January six insurrection is going to jail kind of helps, keep the proud boys away? No, I think it's the fact that there's always a indictment to attend if you're busy for this one. I would like those options. His life

guy and they re all around you much I can make it may be like and probably make it a foreign county in august. For that one, I can make it easier for the generous six one. An indictment today keeps the proud the miami police chief said he was preparing for five thousand. Fifty thousand people about five hundred to two thousand showed I wonder if the delta was kay pop fans on Tik tok buying other taken then one time and other esoteric reference is a little more recent than the one we may. I just made I mean three thousand people is not nothing to show off. No, it's not as, although there were some counter protesters, one of whom got arrested for running in front of his car. I think dressed up as like an old school burglar in like the stripes anyway, So, as so often happens with trump scandals. The first few days after he drops a new banger The defenders had a flail away with a number of, let's just say, creative responses and defenses here is sort of a a pu pu platter of the bullshit that we all saw

tv over the last couple. This I don't know it's a good picture to have boxes in a garage opens up all the time, a bathroom door, locked somebody was and so mara lago, you just can't walk through more illegal of your own accord, because secret service is all over the place. There are thirty three bathrooms at. More illegal. He really liked mementoes eyes office in new york, spilled with em, in a letter from Kim jong moon would would fit into that if he had cocaine in those boxes that were stacked up in the ballroom, then maybe, if you running a cocaine ring out a moral logo. Maybe they don't circle Joe could send hunter to check that out exactly, but he's now we're talking about a piece of paper. What's happened to the public's trust in institutions is, I think, far more significant than a bunch of doc It's been capsule sloppy sloppily. In a bathroom we had a lady or bug man that now claims to be a lady. In going topless at the white house,

two days ago out about a pride celebration thing I mean we can do it We welcome his decadent everyone in our society and our culture. We can break our politics, we can take. Our institution and weapons used for political purposes on both sides. You think the sense here, the next republican pro there's gonna be under tremendous pressure to bring charges and indict Joe Biden, his family, his crackhead son, whoever, but get that was sneaker, Kevin, mccarthy, congressmen, byron, donalds, byron, york, pundit fox news is jesse waters, then lord ingram from vocs and then finally centre markka, rubio dan. Why won't the amis m cover any of the bathrooms that did not have classified information next to the shutter. I think that the byron donalds explanation was really pitch perfect, because how many bad things you been in the lock from the outside. No, that was given mccarthy. Those can really. He care mccarthy thinks that the boxes got put in the bathroom one of them stood up and neither latched the door or precedent

but none the handle and that made it also was given mccarthy who said that at the top aaron donalds was a one. But what about the thirty three bathrooms at weren't full? I also think that I'm surprised at thirty three is that seems like a small number of athens from our alike are, for me yet is a publicly do people state like I have to admit I've tried to learn as always possible, marilla go. It is like a hotel to people stay there. I genuinely don't know, I think they probably have golf off. They seem to have a poor from the the the shots I see from above. They do a lot of events, sort of like a country club Y m c, a cover band also, there yeah trouble like the dj from his ipad learned recently from the start, the deck of the veranda. These are real, followed empire times happening, yeah truly but like the guy. So any these arguments vetoes abandoned this, like does anyone going

keep a ben defending the underlying conduct here, or do you think they're all just going to go to the you know, this treatment of trump is unfair as compared to Biden and Hillary. I think they are going to continue to throw as much shit at the wall as possible, because the goal is not really to persuade anyone if they sort their sort of two target audiences. For this group of yahoos, whose we just heard one is people who want to be with trump are looking for any excuse to stick with him and defend them, and they will take anything. They will take the presidential records act. Bullshit they'll take the bathroom locks. They'll take Joe Biden are what about just whatever it is to see just give them a cheesecake factories, menu worth of options, The other group are the swing, that's fingers at the right one sort of the voters up deciding elections, the ones who engage. You are inherently sceptical of the media. Cynical aha, citizens and they do not engage deeply in the new. So they don't, though, not paying attention the differences between the espionage at the present time.

Zack, they don't know how the special council, as walled all from merit garland. Another just department, is walled off from the white house, and so they just throw. What the shit out there, then these people will throw up their arms and say I dunno, I don't care and they'll disengage on this issue or from the election altogether, and so I think that's what's happening here. Yeah just bore everybody into not listening and Marco rubio a broader breast? For some reason I don't know what's wrong with him. I felt that way for years, but it's worth noting that about about trumps document retention, Rubio, said: there's no allegation that there was harm done to the national security, there's no allegation that it was sold to a foreign power or that it was traffic to someone else or that anybody got access to it about Hillary Clinton, email server back in the day he said mishandling of classified information was disgraceful. An unbecoming of someone who aspires to the presidency actions were grossly negligent damage national security and put lives at risk. So there you go wait. Are you saying Marco Rubio's full of shit? I think I think I am

I think, I'm saying he's inconsistent, but the difference so far the maybe is if there are some republicans, including some trumps, twenty twenty four opponents who are finding a spine. Let's hear from a few, if this indicted, is true present tromp was incredibly reckless with our national security more than I'm a military spouse my husband's about to deploy this wicked. This puts all of military men and women in danger like europe to ensure that all the news about miss you should close what information I happen to be a citizen diligence committee and I placed by briefings on a regular basis in what what they did. Was is unacceptable, but I do think that even half is true. Then he's toast. I mean it's a it's a pretty it's a very detailed indictment. it's very, very damaging and this idea of presenting trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt ridiculous. That was dickie Healy.

John Cournand and ralphie from christmas story. Now all growed up attorney general bill bar din. I wrong to feel a little bit hopeful about the fact that there is a small but growing? Now I wouldn't say it's a chorus. Yet it's more of an acapella group worth of republicans warned us are like never trump ers who are willing to criticise his conduct in this case in the past. Nobody goes first read they don't want to go first and they're sort of a collective action problem. I think that it's going that this is going to I am slightly differently in the twenty twenty four primer. They didn't waste. Sixteen primary, I think everyone to some degree understands that too. would be the nominee you're gonna have to be trump now. What about However, during the hilly most notably are, fat are trying to dip calculate their chances of beating trump versus their chance of being chums vp men. So you can see different approaches here, but I think people are beginning

make a case. The problem is its a mealy mouth version of the case in too often they are already echoing trump's primary. Points by essentially saying yes, Joe Biden has weapon eyes the government to unfairly attacked donald trump, but if Donald trump did these things, that's bad and that's not a strong enough case. You have you, can reinforce trumps message, narrative and then make the criticism you just have to make. The criticism have to make it probably yeah. That's fair, although you know I'm trying to find a little hope. You're, like sometimes politicians, float arguments like this. They test the waters. They gauge the reaction before kind of walking it back or going all in. Maybe that's what's happening here. I have to assume that everyone in this case is pretty clear. Eyed that the maga base is going to hate. Even the lightest criticism or MIKE pence is calling the allegations very serious. I think TIM Scott said it's a serious case. Everyone is leaning. I think, rightly frankly, an innocent until proven guilty, because

We do live in a nation of laws here, but I do know it does seem like they're they're dip in their toes in back I can't imagine them walking this back. I I agree with that. I think they have to recognize and I think run the synthesis fall from grace, probably as exhibit a of this, that you're going to have to separate trump from his base. If you want to win, there is not a lane big enough or something else so you're going to have to go. added, and that could be very politically painful in the short term in the long run, but as your only chance so that the one twenty twenty four candidate who is truly flailing away at trump, is Chris Christie He did a cnn town hall. The other night lets us into a clip. Do you believe present by has weapon eyes department of justice against donald trump. With these indictments you know, look I don't think so. Airlines blaming the prosecutors. He did It's his conduct, ellomenus question? What exactly was he doing with them? That someone remind him he's not the president anymore, this

is vanity run amok, anderson run, amok ego run amok and he is now they're put this country. What, through this, when we didn't have to go through it, he wants to continue to pretend these president. He wants the trappings of the presidency around him and I think one of those trappings is these documents. I am convinced that if she goes back to the white house that the next four years will all be about him, just settling scores, I'm going to take him on directly and not because I don't like him, I'm gonna take about turkey because he's the leader like how do you

I don't understand the other candidates who won't even mention his name. I watched that joni ernst roast and ride thing it was like he was voldemort from Harry potter, says dame: how do you beat someone? If you won't talk about them? How do you beat them? If you want distinguish yourself from them, he hasn't won a damn thing since two thousand and sixteen don't allow the showmanship to obscure the facts, the facts are he lost, so then I mean the the vanity run. Amuck explanation is interesting. I'm not sure I find it to be. Like the most compelling argument, I love the criticism of trump as a loser. What do you? What do you think of this message? I think that Chris Christie's campaign is a lincoln project. Ad come to life in the sense that you like it. I like it our friends on twitter love it by every piece of resource will show that republican voters, who should be the target of it, do not like it, and that is that is as much a messenger boy.

as it is a message from Chris Christie has a minus fifty four reading in a recent poll, among republicans, is a deeply deeply popular individual, making its fifty four? He is only slightly more popular than my pants, who was they murdered by his own voters. That gives you a sense of where he, where he is. There is a part of it that I think, is useful in korea. I think it's a useful thing like if someone wants to get up there and come and kick the living shit out of trump in a compelling way that even if Chris Christie never gets a single delegate in the republican nomination that some value to either defeating trump in the primary or so being as a disqualify or for some more moderate, never tromp, republicans or trump skeptical republicans, who may view Christy be made up in that minus fifty four cohort. So I think it's largely I'm glad he's doing it. I just don't think it's sort of work- young- it

he is also like he's a compelling speaker, he's brash. You know you're right if you have a negative, fifty four approval rating you're, probably not the best messenger, but I have a thought experiment for you, dan. Okay, it's not a fun one. As we've discussed, there's a polling threshold and a donor threshold that candidates have to meet to get on the republican debate stage. Let's say Chris Christie has met the polling threshold, but he hasn't hit the forty thousand donor number that he needs to get invited to the debate. Would you give him one dollar and encourage others to do so? to get him on that stage. I'm calling this a christie's choice. I don't think I would do it. I don't think I'd encourage you'll, be able to do it. What the fuck already did didn't putting the rock we can we cut that in if you've got, I mean, if other this is one of the things I give one buck a peter. I want to get one back great. They should do it, when you spend it on your eye, your avocado toasting your latte, you liberal, just give me dollar get him on that stage. The camera grandson

boston, we're not gonna headed duncan, I had go like if you want to do I find I I. The debate will be more interesting for us, at least if he is on stage so great and, let's be honest, who knows if trump will be on that stage at all, he might refuse to debate no bones of it than what like the wizard, bring stupid debate, maybe looking to sell around a sentence, but probably not maybe they'll, all just kick the shit trump in absentia, which is gonna, make them look even weaker. So maybe they'll pick someone funny to kick the shit out of like vex am a swami just get handed to him for like a few hours, and then everybody wins. I dunno we'll say: okay, we're going to take a quick break and when you come back, you'll hear dan's conversation with legal expert. Co host of crooked media's, amazing legal analysis, podcast, strict scrutiny, you'll hear from Leah litman, so stick around This show a sponsor by better help. Imagine you're looking at scale with everything you do for others on one side and everything you do.

Self, on the other, is a balanced tommy. No unwelcome looking at my eyes are closed. Well, let me tell you it's easy to do everything for others and forget that you need support yourself. Some with resto threat- I think that's probably why love is not in this ad right now he's doing some. I love it. Some him time from him to therapy can help. You clarify your values and find more balance in your life, so you can keep being a rockstar for others, without forgetting yourself in the process. Therapy is great you get to talk to someone they listen to you. You get stuff I've just unjust by saying it instead of thing, in it in your own head. It makes you feel my feel better in the yard they're not allowed to leave until the sessions or you will have to be. There will be a full part You can be as annoying as you want their stuck. There are fewer thing. I learned that's wonderful, if you're thinking of starting their,

give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge, find more balance with better help, visit better help, dot com, slash p s a today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better help, h e l, p, dot com, slash p s, a pod, save america is brought you by squarespace. it gets hard to build a new business sure I start a new business and the economy in this. It's important to have a website that looks good and that works just ask. I asked the folks over at healthcare dot gov yeah, that one yet could have been a better roll out. I think you know it. You know what they want using what square space you dont want a website that is messy politics, whether your collecting donations, fear every cause or marketing your news, podcast square space, help to create an all in one platform to grow your business online through an engaging website where you can sell anything support your cause by gathering contributions with paypal. Apple

stripe or denmark with member areas, you can unlock a new revenue stream for your business and free of time in your schedule, by selling access to gated content like videos or newsletters about the latest political hot topic square spaces. Blogging tools lay to share stories, photos, videos and updates from yield. With request is analytics. You can even learn where your site visits and sales are coming from and analyze which channels are most effective. You square space, email campaigns to collect, email subscribers and convert them into loyal customers. The squarespace dot com, slash cricket for a free trial and when you're ready to launch use, offer code crooked to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain pod. Save america has brought you by lomi. Having loamy will change the way you think of food waste. Well, tell me more. Lomi transforms your garbage into gold at the push of a button. Now gold was in quotation marks, so don't actually expect it to become go, oh, okay, but what it does is it turns it into dirt, which is really good. for your plants, yeah. Ok, it's sort like a leprechaun adjacent, yes gus. What is the lonely? You might be wondering where, as well

more about going through this add its countertop electric composting that turns food scraps dirt and under four hours. That means there's no food rotting in the garbage smoke at the kitchen. You can take the trash out once a week, instead of a whole bunch of times a week. It's hassle free mess, free experience with no more leaking bags. You can turn your waste into dirt that you can feed to your plants lawn or garden in all of your food scraps plant clipping and even those leftovers. You forgotten the back of the fridge that go right back into that garden. They're, going to help to grow more nutritious food right in your backyard. You will help the environment while making your life easier, loved. The lummi saves the lots of trips to the garbage can on the street and whether you want to start making a positive environmental impact or just grow beautiful garden. Let me is perfect, for you had to low, mete out complex crooked and use the promo code cricket to get fifty dollars your lonely that fifty dollars off when you had to EL. Oh, am I not complex crooked and use promo code cricket at check out. Thank you owe me for sponsoring this episode.

Joining us now to talk about the trumpet diminish our resident legal expert and co host of cricket's fantastic legal podcasts women. We will come back to the pod thanks for having me, I was in this morning to the emergency. Strict scrutiny. Episode that you in shot dead. In response to the details of the diamond, the arrayment, I encourage everyone else into it. It is great, but I have some follow up questions for you, so I'm so glad you're here, let's do it ok, let's just tubes over the real basics here thou has been arraigned he's been given a set of release. Guidelines thinks he can and cannot do what happens now.

So the initial next steps are going to be a series of discovery processes, as well as pre trial motion, so discovery basically means that the government will be exchanging evidence with defence counsel and defendant I'm in order to kind of show them what they have add. The prosecution also has an obligation, under the Supreme court's decision in Brady, verses, maryland to turn over any evidence or material that might be exculpatory to the defence, so, basically any evidence its favourable tutor.

and suggests you know he might not be guilty, and there might not be any of this but like who knows, and then, aside from that, the defense will probably start to file motions seeking either access to certain documents if the prosecution isn't turning them over or seeking to challenge. Various aspects of the prosecution's case may be saying it's legally insufficient or you know other bases to basically prevent the trial from going forward. But that's basically what we're looking at next. How much was a complicate things that some of the evidence in this trial includes some of the america's most highly classified documents. That's likely to complicate things considerably, particularly as part of the prosecution's obligations to turn over. You know evidence that they have, as well as negotiations between the prosecution and the defense to turn over other evidence as well. You know, as we noted during the emergence-

the episode is not clear that trump has yet secured a lawyer that has the requisite clearance to look at some of these materials, and so there might be some delay in finding you know a lawyer who could do such a thing or obtaining some permit. and from the government for one of the warriors to access the information, but that is likely to lead to Additional delays. There may also be squabbles over like what sort of procedures or restrictions you know the court can put on the defense's ability to look at the evidence, or you know have it, and and so that

I played happens while I was, I would say, I was more than old, disturbed to hear kate on your episode say that she was felt pretty confident that this case would get push pass. The twenty twenty four election is that you're feeling as well. It is, but you know that partially, because if the judge who is overseeing it- and it's also partially because you know there are going to be some legal issues- that courts probably have a confronted before because there hasn't ban, you know a prosecution of our president who kept classified secret documents in bathrooms after the vertical was trying to take them back. So you know that it's not like that judge can just point too well. Here is a case that said you don't know. A former presidents can't just keep classified secret documents like strewn about the bathroom and way their hand, saying some things about essential records act and also because this judge has shown judge ailing, can end that she is more than willing to kind of go out of her way to be indulgent. You know too,

much so of trumps, legal strategies and legal arguments, and so those are the two things that led me to think. This is probably not going to be settled before the twenty twenty four election. Of course you know there might be surprises. Sometimes that hat ends but yeah. have agreed with Kate's protection. Is there an argument or a legal process? The jack Psmith can follow to try to expedite trial here, given the very real one that the the voters, for you know, should have a say here, but also that trump, if reelected could pardon himself. I mean, of course you know the special counsel just based on the length of the indictment, the fact that it is a speaking indictment that laid out you know all of the evidence in very clear fashion. It seems like that office is really trying to

make the process, and this case as easy as simple as possible. So of course right. They can try to expeditiously and clearly right respond to whatever requests. You know, try Lawyers are going to make and say no right, that's not warranted right. This is banana, unlike here all of the reasons why and they can try to move the case along a similar I'm wine as other cases in that particular jurisdiction, which again is among the faster we know areas for handling cases in the united states. So yes, of course, they can respond to motions that council may may file that can make requests of the court and propose

their own time lions. But you know, at the end of the day, the schedule is going to be determined by the district judge overseeing this case, who has very limited experience with criminal cases and certainly no experience with criminal key says that involve a really novel facts and a host of legal issues that haven't been presented, two courts before and again is pretty indulgent of donald trump, thus far in related litigation me when you say limited experience criminal trials is in it for trials, allows a total fourteen days and her career, yes, is limited experience I was referring to now. Where she hasn't been on the bench that long she was gonna confirmed in the lame duck session. You know in twenty twenty but yeah she does not have a ton of criminal law experience

the ultimate decision of rekindle starts with her, but jack Psmith could try to force it by appealing above her as that car and do you think he should do that, or does that or is he stuck between this terrible choice between trying to get a more experienced, potentially less biased, judge and further delaying this aren't likely to be delayed case. yes, so he could first ask judge cannon and if she refuses secrets called in our rid of man dame s from the court of appeals. You know, and if that fails, you ask the supreme court, but in addition to the delay factor is that you know it and at the special council wants this case to proceed quickly than that you know operate kind of intention with any refusal requests. I think again give in june. cannons willingness to bend the law to favour donald trump. The government is an

she's gonna. Sound scary kind of relying once again on the eleven circuit, which is a very conservative court of appeals and the? U s supreme court, which is also super majority justices appointed by republican president's those are the two courts that they are lying on to basically police judge can ends you no abuse of the law, The government needs to be able to maintain credibility and not annoyed those courts and though judges and justices in the event. Judge, judge cannon does something insane and they need to ask one of those courts to intervene, and it's that posture that makes it really a call for lawyers in general and federal government lawyers in particular to sound the alarm about what is happening with our courts, because they need to maintain a posture under which there not really pushing any of the federal courts buttons or annoying them too.

Watch one time and you are on the show during a previous potential daemon of president trump. I ask you to pretend to be his legal defense attorney. I am not going to do that again. I feel I still feel bad about that that that, to this day I do we doing its work. We should all remember for those of us who get everything no about law from your broadcast. That leads admin is essentially the government's best case. Ray design include exculpatory evidence. It does not include what trump's defenses can be. What do you so there have to be some holes in this case. Theoretically, what do you, where do you think trump's that when he, if and when he finds a defense attorney? What do you think that the fence will be? I think their defense is going to focus on a few different things. One is similar to what we talked about last time. That's probably going to be some allegations and to be clear, I think they're are unsubstantiated and unsupported, but allegations of prosecutorial misconduct and that this is basically political rhetoric,

you fusion and you know and a political prosecution. So that's going to be one angle. I think that a second angle is probably going to be. You know some version of the argument we heard in trump's post arraignment speech, slash campaign event, which was also the line of argument. He pursued before a judge in an earlier round of litigation in this case, which is that these documents, are some how his and you know, they're kind of invoking the presidential records act, which makes no sense and previous times they've suggested. You know he declassified them or there's going to be some kind of variation of this argument where they're going to say basically, all of the documents created by any federal agency are prepared for the president and the president owns them and can kind of do what he wants with them again. This argument makes no sense: law and is absolutely insane, but will probably see some variation of that and then the third is you know on those charges had actually require the government to show that president

Knowing Lee you know, defied governments, orders or knowing lee you know, concealed and refused to give over classified secret information will probably here, challenges that Oh, he didn't actually know that or he didn't actually under. Stand the heat and have a legal authority to possess that. That's why you know the recorded audio conversation of admitting. I know I can actually declassed by this- is so damaging and important, but those are be mine, early predictions about what were likely to see. Do you think they will try to get his attorneys notes thrown out? Yes, so they are also certainly going to challenge some of the evidence underlying the obstruction of justice. Charges in particular relate to conversations that's Donald trump had with his lawyers, during which he basically told the lawyers to comply with a subpoena, or can we just hide the documents or something like that and of course they are likely to

sir, that any conversations and directors between trump and his lawyers are privileged and subject to attorney client privilege. Now, in another case, in d c, a district judge concluded that, even though the conversations were between trump in his lawyer, those conversations we're not protected by a twenty client privilege because they fell with. They fell within, what's known as the crime fraud exception, where, if you are committing a crime with your lawyer or using your lawyer in furtherance of crime, you know that's not privilege, but god can and will basically decide that a new here, and so that will also probably be a challenge to the government's ability to use some evidence or some theories inner to support an obstruction charge as well as some others. I will say a lot of legal terms can be obscure and confusing, but the crime fraud accept this particularly well named LEO piece of legal jargon. Yeah now at very apt here,

Tromp obviously has a very full dance car when it comes to his legal entanglements. He has a trial schedule, run a civil Investigation into his businesses in new york, he has the other indictments scheduled for next march, we're looking at potentially two more indictments in the coming months. Does this indictment in this case affect the timing of his new york, hazel attorney general james in new york? Add a pod, save america show on Monday night suggested it could affect both her case against the trump organization and Alvin brags. Ah in time and against trump on the hush money payments, I mean it absolutely. Could you can imagine right, trump's, defense, lawyer, saying you know we cannot

you defending three proceeding simultaneously and basically asking for continuance. As from some, you know, on the other hand, committing a bunch of different crimes and being charged with all of them is not exactly supposed to be a defence to any one particular trial or proceeding, but I do think that courts again because they are giving an additional process, an additional protections given you know the importance of these proceedings, and it's likely that if you know there is some conflict between the timeline of these cases that they will basically allow him to delay some of the meetings, while others play out oftentimes when we have you on the shelf. Further reasons unrelated to trumps. Criminality is about terrible things. The supreme court has done or is about to do today. They actually did something good. Could you explain the somewhat surprising and very important decision supreme court made today sure

court in large part upheld the indian child welfare act. It turned away two major challenges to that federal law that contains a bunch of really important protections for native families that make it more difficult to break up native families and more difficult to place native children outside of native communities. Now. It is surprising, in the sense that the court often does shitty Polish thinks it by an attitude that would be the rule. This would be the exception I paid, but on this particular challenge, based on how the oral argument went, we did expect that the court was going to rule against those challenges. Now, technically it didn't rule,

on two other challenges, one of which is the equal protection challenge that maintains that the indian child welfare act by protecting native americans actually engaged invasion. Unconstitutional race discrimination and with the court said, is we're not going to address that challenge because the plaintiffs, in this case are actually injured by the relevant provisions in the indian child welfare act that contain these placement preferences and justice cabin. I wrote a concurrence at like well. You know if there were such a case, it ever came before the court. You know it's possible that I might rule for this equal protection challenge and invalidate parts of equal, but you know the court again turned away major challenges to acquire and upheld the statute. To the extent it addressed the challenges. So that is happy welcome news and not to claim to much credit, but I will just point out that strict scrutiny went to dc last week for the live show and

ever since then the court has basically been behaving. So is that cooperation? Is that correlation, I'm not sure, but of note? Oh, I think that's notable. Maybe you should get back to you. see that, as there are decisions on affirmative action, those immediate q plus rights, and a whole bunch of other things that supreme court could drop on her head any day. Indeed, I usually I'm the downer, but that one was Yup yeah, I mean it's very rare- a there was a conversation with two people where I am not the downer. So I fell into my natural role here: okay, Leela Ben, thank you so much for joining us. We will talk to you again soon sounds good The part The america brought by article the best thing about summers: gins, do all your favorite indoor thing:

outside your meals, watching movies, falling asleep on the sofa accidentally everything's, better l, fresco soldier articles, curated catalogue of outdoor furniture is here to help you do all your favorite thing. the summer they get everything you need to really make things your own from outdoor sofas, dining sets today, core article believes and delightful design for every home, and thanks to their online only model, they get some really delightful prices to their curated assortment of midcentury, modern coastal. Austria's scandia in bohemia designs makes furniture shopping. Simple article offers fast fordable shipping across the. U s and candid apply They won't leave you waiting around. You pick the delivery time. They'll send your updates every step of the way. That's nice articles knowledgeable customer. Your team is there when you need them to make sure your experience is smooth and stress free. We have a lot of article furniture tons got some in our office. We've had some for a long time. It's very comfortable. It was affordable, chairs tables

couches looks great. All of it ah shows up fast shows up fast. This is what you want from a furniture store articles offering pod save america listeners fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more to claim visit article dot, com pledge, cricket and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. That's article dot com, slash crooked, for fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars or more pod. Save america is brought to you by outer And what do you look forward to wearing the most during warmer months? What do I look for during the one was John swimsuit swim? I, like the beach meat has been called, has been where it's been two call now. I am sure everyone says sympathetic towards Ireland has all kinds of great clause. We love we've, worn them quite a bit. Now I dunno one is the first brand founded on a total commitment to sustainability, or one offers extremely comfortable and stylish men's and women's clothing every product they make

planet, first mentality, meaning materials are environmentally friendly and the factories they work with, provide safe working conditions and fair living wages for all workers. Every afternoon product is comfortable. Breathable fits great like a glove like a glove or not as you thought, but maybe they have gloves. I don't even I dunno I haven't, received an outer one glove, yet a loose fitting glove. If you want the design to make, you look and feel great sustainably made from high quality, organic and recycled materials. There you go tommy, there's some apex trunks with a sound good. which her there you go tom ears. If there's a bathing suit right there, the most high performance trunk out their lightweight, durable and perfect for adventure jumpsuits are especially popular. Does your phone then, of course, the high quality tee for every occasion I heard some of the time Atlantis catherine S, good, that comes like peter say. Twenty five today and you'll get twenty five percent of your first order. Lydia, kissing, arthur renew novel called mobility. Mobility is the first book release from

gives new publishing and grant crooked media reads: mobility is there Coming of age story of a young woman named bunny Glenn following her from Youth to adulthood, as she's somewhat accidentally, gets deeper and deeper into her role as a storyteller where the oil industry is about growing up in the late nineteenth and early two thousand. That's about quarter, greed in the neo liberal era, climate disaster and the way the personal is very political. Pre order, your copy of mobility today at crooked dotcom, slash mobility or wherever books, our soul, so you can be the first to read it when its released on august. First, before we go. We did also want to talk about california. Governor gave a nuisance Our long interview with foxes ho sean Hannity here is a sampling of how it I will tell you on every measure from the economy, inflation, borders, energy,

national security is missing and act? Let's talk about them in order little lying on the way we want to challenge the promise. You said the economy, thirteen point, one million jobs created more. These opposed cold jobs? You know that that's an artificial number bourbon and then let me just let me sit like this as an as an opportunity to engage civilly. Ok, fair point. Your president Donald I two point six million jobs during his four years. We created thirteen point. One may find you can maintain a covert friend. How about the fact that Joe Biden? creating more jobs six times more jobs than the previous three public and prestige by our youth, I think he's a man of decency in character. I'm really proud of the president, proud of what is a constant enough to be president. That's us round! It allowed to stay the mccarthy hearings, Therefore, let us look at the vote card, I didn't I just gotta women go to for exactly kevin played by the present united states. You would do to our debate with wonderful make it three three

debate. We made like everyone enemy little notice, have no notes. I look forward to that. Camera border state run disk. This is not, I know, is desperate to get in and they are now because a lot of people a flop, Donald trump is, clean. Is it takes years Biden? Dissenters was only flocked to you. You will clean. His clock, he might have a critical attention and he said a months ago. By doing an an r p, I have the contractor my quality higher sinews, going to send people to California. This is a stunt. It's embarrassing that pathetic liquor kennedy crumpled up paper where where gavin is doing well in that conversation, then let's divide this into two parts: a performance and then the venue. How did you think Gavin did in terms of his performance? He was great. He was really really good. He was prepared. He was crisp other than that one use of the term rfp

He spoke like a like a normal human, explain things and very easy to understand ways. He I think he dealt with the Biden age question in like the most easily understood way possible ticket with his audience with. If, if Biden is not strong, why did he just run circles around Kevin and it s hearing the which worked really well, because Sean Hannity oppose it at ceiling deal, and so did was very. It was very, very well done yet he was so much better prepared for this interview than she added. He was even though he shot at his little charts and his brown paper bag, but, like Gavin, had commanded the facts, he pushed back hard that you civil and thoughtful

It seemed defensive like when, when Hannity started, pressing him on homelessness numbers in california, Gavin said the status quo is disgraceful. You know he was like very honest about that. The tone, though, was positive and impressive. I think it's worth noting that what fox news did with that performance was turn around and use Gavin's performance. To contrast, with Biden to make Biden, look old now, Gavin newsom can't control that, but that's just what fox does I spent some time we ve, given you some fairly recently I'll, be honest. I went into it feeling, like I'm, not really sure about this guy. I dont know what I think about him. I came out really impressed. He clearly works his ass off. He has in part private conversations on tv is fact like this. It is fingertips at all times. He memorizes allowed us off stuff cause dicks dyslexic, and this is how he he

He just commit thinks the memory as you and I know Dan having lots of facts in statistics available to you as a communicator can phone ways. We quickly so obama do really well with this and not, but in this case he really did well with Hannity. I also think like Gavin is super competitive. He wants democrats to be tough. He wants to win. You can tell that he hates me. dissenters, his guts. Anyone who wants to spend three hours with that guy added debate or anywhere else has some going on here every word about the information bubbles. Inky set it to handed in his interview in clearly watches fox all the time I told given that I would like to see him go on Joe rogan show these. I think romans got a big audience of people who are far more likely to be persuaded than the typical fox voter, but that gets us into this question of. Why do you think

he did Hannity and do you think that's the right venue? I have someone who has been pretty skeptical of democrats spending their time going on fox, largely for the reason you said, which is even if you do great in the moment they will take what you say cut it. And weapon eyes at on all the twenty three other hours of the day, the weather trying to destroy democracy in america? But in this case I think there are some exceptions. The Democrats don't go on factual, and that is for a certain number of munich haters who are towns it enough and have a plan to go in there and win the fight and when the fight in a way that will go via will be, I'm just people happened. We tuning into hannity at that time at night, because none of those people persuadable. Just there are very few of them, the as in any of them. Women about around state are quite small, but because he did it needed it. Well, it went viral and got attention elsewhere and people will consume it ass, motionless and social media through other coverage, and so I think, the right thing to do when you would you

I do in this sort of desegregated media environment, as do things that get attention beyond the people who are watching the moment in which you do it, and so he had a plan to do it needed a well yeah. I mean, I think, in twenty twenty there was a big controversy about whether democrats should go on fox news and do the special town halls they were creating, and I think, what's gotten forgotten about that debate- was that it happened in the midst of a major effort to get advertisers to boycott fox, and that's why people are so pissed about it. But this broader question of like whether democrats should go on fox or not, is not a new one. We we struggled with this in two thousand and nine. I agree with you. I think what made Gavin's interview so smart and compelling was. It won't just reach those hannity viewers, but it became like a media event that was covered unto itself in that will get his brand out. It'll get the message out. If I worked at the white house, would I advise?

Joe Biden to do fox news, no, because I think ultimately like there's more downside than upside and when the chips are down. We know that fox is going to go all in for the republican party. We read all the dominion emails about what they really think about the the call and twenty twenty for the election. We saw the other night they caught. They combine a wannabe dictator in a karen, I'm not sure, that's the most like level even handed place, but I agree with you that I think surrogates should go on. I think Democrats should go on who are ready to push back hard and do it with a smile. But I do think to your point in like big picture, I agree, like fox news, is not really the audience I'm worried about the average hannity viewer. It's probably like seventy years old and super conservative and not about to change the people. I think about a lot or like disaffected. Voters who feel like politics is lame a waste of time. All politicians are the same. So why even bother? I think inquiry

singly you see pulling where there's young men of all races falling into this category. The kind like Joe rogue in kind of bar stool sports fans, demographic and I think, if you want to persuade people who are sceptical and hard to reach, I think you need to make a push there and just help those p I understand that, like politics is in annoying people who know you on twitter or cable news from both sides. It's like you vote for the person you send your body to Iraq or not you vote for the person who says your mom with breast cancer as a precondition and in can't get healthcare or the person who fixes that problem and allows your mom the web breast cancer to get help insurance or you now you vote for someone who thinks that trans kids should be treated like human beings like everyone else in this country or not, and I think

finding those people and talking to them about kind of, like the underlying stakes of politics, are what is so important in making them understand that no all politicians are not the same like we're all smart people, we can all figure out where they stand on things and figure out. Who is making choices that matter to you and then getting to those folks is the hardest. Part of politics is not even the message: it's like the delivery mechanism, danny it's exactly right. I don't. I don't disagree with you that I don't think Joe Biden should go on fox per se. It I think there really is there there's this question about going? Why are you going on fox or going on fox or reach some sort of mythical fox viewing open to democrat voter? That's a mistake pro tip. Thinking you know, thinking that, like Brett bair is going to give you a fair shot or some stupid shit like that. What did he do to get a reservation at cafe? Milano? Is that a good reason sorry keep going

these thoughts he stole out there. I guess he, probably I I'm gonna buy it. I think if you feel Joe Biden, that is to fox, I just want to stipulate that but some of his best moments are when he's mixing it up with republicans like during this day, the unions have, in the course of this campaign as it as it unfolds over the next year and a half year some moments like that. You I think when he gets into a little, The argument or something with Peter do see during either you know cuban age or prescott. Whatever he's? U comes off pretty good, I think I'm in I even thought when you call him the son of a bitch that was pretty good too, like he seems human and real and on his game and so finding some like moments of conflict. that is not. What are you don't give? on handier recipes. Yahoo is the present status, which would be a huge boost for them. Ratings, wise and advertising dollar was by there. There is something something it won't governors into that also works forbidden, so so Joe Biden should go unused max and start the energy like listening,

She had come and go from their services. provide a rat grab a guy by his collars and today elicit a major just. Take em everything. Tat was guy coming to take them from the other. That's great advice, I hope and level, Listen, he never mitigate upset. You got nothing better to do dan last question, for If we let you go listeners probably know that you're, like a famous youtube star- and you do this- show colleague, experts react or some shit like that. and I ve been doing this really fun new show on youtube with my friend bryant, how the kohen, where we are, we draft in rank fun things like the greatest campaign gaps in history. It's called liberal tears and for some reason you keep attacking us on your show, which is me of farmer. People watch it and I'm just wondering why you feel the need to gate keep youtube and what Brian did to you to get us to this place and how we can can fix. Is your show? What should our colleague I thought I was little tears, but tee

I are our those could brains coattails that he is like youtube here that I use a gigantic matured star. Yes, like I love your show, its great we want. We have little draw the competition around here, be now I'm just going to keep up the ok. Well, look. The next episode is coming out on Wednesday june twenty first. It features some truly sadistic punishments for the loser of our competition. In the previous episode I spent the morning borrowing my to wipe I have my fucking back so make sure you subscribe, the passive america youtube and if Dan keeps coming after us, you on, if you're listening, cause Dan is trying to de platform. Us we are willing to take the tucker karlsson deal and take the show

twitter, like I think that the great patch, if you love sadism, watch that. Thank you. Thank you very much. I still have, then you a final note. We just want to say a big thank you to are amazing producer, Andy gardiner seen this is her. Last week she has been a critical part, of the team that works their asses off long hours to make the show happen. We are credibly grateful to her to everybody that works here, but a crowbar, grateful the andean this moment and will miss her, just want to say thank you. You know Andy because of the site, puppets but Andy his son, an incredible job on the show, helping us make the show that we want to make helping us reach. You're having a lot of fun on the show. She has been a huge asset for comedian, pod, save america and we're going to miss her damn right in the sock. Puppets are just incredible. Just I mean they looked their uncanny. How do you make a sock puppet that good anyway? Well, that's it for this week's episode, I'm about to get in the car and just drive over to John's house in just like little

soup into his mouth or something we're going to maybe bart him back to health, so we'll let you go dan and I talked to everybody. We have no episode tuesday, because juneteenth. So I think the next episode is thursday by everyone. Hardly of america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy gardener, Bernstein in Bolivia, Martinez, its mixed and edited by andrew chadwick. Jordan canter is our sound engineer, with audio support from kyle segment and charlotte landis, thanks to halley keefer madeline geringer irish works, anti taft adjusting how for production support into our digital team, eliza cone, Phoebe Bradford me a common then have coat and David tolls subscribed to pod, save america on youtube to catch full episodes, exclusive content and other community events find us at youtube. Dot com, slash at pod, save america.