The presented spots are pod. Save America is zipper, greater is the holidays approach. There is still a lot of jobs to fill. seasonal lights, installer, gift, wrapping, associate or no beard. Santa clean shaven man who wears a synthetic beard ho ho ho. That's right. So if you need I, for one of these festive roles or any others, there's only one place, you should go zipper. Critter dotcom such crooked, zip, recruiters, powerful technology, identifies people with the skills and experience that match your job, and if you're really interested in a candidate want to snagged before their contacted by the companies, you can invite them to apply for your job with one click. Zipper critter send them an email from you and you stand out from the competition. It's no wonder that forty five employers who post on zipper cruder, get equality candidate within the first day and right now you can try it for good,

for free its hypocritical. Come such crooked discover hiring joy with zip recruiter, just jingle your way, his recruiter, dotcom, slash cricket. What would apply to America? I'm DR ever ambient driver on today's not sugar. A scenario is back to talk about what messages worked and twenty twenty and what might work in the Georgia run us before them. What site, but the latest developments uncovered relief negotiations and the next round of cabinet announcement from the incoming

Biden, administration, but first check out this week's pod save the world where Tommy and Ben dive even deeper than we on selection of general, Lloyd, Austin for Secretary of Defence and Abbe, look we check out next week. Save the world because Barack Obama, who clearly can't stay away from cricket media is talking to Tommy and Ben about his new book, a promised land so that the exciting for next week more quick reminders. Early voting in Georgia starts on December fourteenth, but there is still plenty of I'm a need to volunteer so go to voting. America comes out of Georgia, so tomorrow December eleventh, is the last day to place your holiday moorish orders to get them by December. Twenty fourth, so go to Korea, dot, com, such store, to get all your favorite, it's not great Dan gear. Is there any sort of special needs, not great Dame gear.

another set of fast man pretty hard to keep its, not great Dan stuff. Instead, ok, it's our its heart. I understand that we have come to our house too, of the eye cat mugs ice, others. Yes, they are That's the point out the by catch, the other, the Illicit cat is a big hit in our house with Kyler, so she gets a bug. Did you stuck up on tee? hurts of silhouette of love it sitting in different positions, because that to me as a that's, a pretty that's a pretty strong piece of work, gear. We're being I basically turning that you should ensure mural on the wall behind me, good good. Could goods Let's get to the news. Here's some headlines on this. We're twenty sixth expanded unemployment expires in most states on December thirty. First, the eviction- Moratorium expires on January. First paid sick leave expires at the end of the month. Additional aid to cities and states runs out

On December nineteenth, the federal government runs out of money and yet There is still no deal in Washington on any of this, even Tens of millions of Americans are hungry, homeless, sick or out of work, Sudan Last time we talked about this, there was a nine hundred and eight billion dollar bipartisan framework that democratic leaders basically agree to an additional three dollars per week, and unemployment benefits over four months. Three hundred billion, small business loans. Hundreds two billion in aid to state local governments. Eighty two billion for schools, ten billion for child care providers billion for vaccine development distribution and an extension. of the moratorium on evictions and student loan payments still not enough still does include another round of twelve hundred dollar. Checks still includes temporary liability protections for corporations, but it's better than nothing and yet still nobody.

Mitch. Mcconnell still says now ripe for research recording. I just saw that Mcconnell staff was telling the staff of the by partisan crew that was coming up with this deal. This just wasn't, wasn't wasn't gonna work. It's not gonna work for Republicans, Father Centre, Republicans. Why? Because even though it is meagre scraps with married people need Mitch. Mcconnell would prefer to hold aid too. workers, small businesses, schools. and everyone else hostage, so that corporations can kill and get their workers without being seen this is all about a liability shield for corporations in it one of the most morally pour it positions that anyone is taken. This would be in a time of peace and prosperity. This would be an incredibly opposition from which Mcconnell is doing this at a time when people need it the most he's trying to use the suffering people anywhere,

increases in this country as leverage to help corporations may like talk about one of great villains in modern american history right before our eyes, during one of the most incredibly cruel and dangerous things, people will, lose their jobs because of its people will die because of this, and that is a choice it miss Connell is making well he's I'm trying to figure out with Mcconnell, though he is so there was there's a temporary liability protection in the bipartisan compromise. So Democrats were at least willing to have some kind of liability. Protection for companies, at least in the short term and Mcconnell earlier this week, suggested that he would drop the liability protection if Democrats would drop the hundred and sixty billion dollars and state and local aid Democrats at no, so obviously look major Mcconnell. If there's one thing he has loved since the beginning of these negotiations on the first cares acts back in March. It

making sure that workers can force their employees back to work and if they get sick, can't sue them. That's what he loves, that's his passion, but it seems like he was willing to give it up, because he really Viking hates state local aid, and worse I mean I I just I dont know if his love of protection for corporations is really driving this process. Well, I think there is contacts here, that's important, which is the way These George elections looming the grass roots money that power Democrats rats waste when his continued into Georgia Democrats arisen, huge amounts of money, grassroots money, forge on our Sakharov Warnock, outside groups, etc. Republicans are keeping pace with huge country, Hence mainly do Miss Connell Super Pack, Mister Casson Battery seventy million dollars in a month since election day, fifteen in dollars from one single Wall Street guys do Schwartz men and he

this is the single top priority of the Chamber of Commerce, corporate Amerika, the people who funded super pack, and he is trying to keep the spigots coming. I think, Resistance to the temporary ability shield or whatever you want to call it. That was in that, but most people version of the diverse negotiations. Is it very liability showed is not worth very much to operations, because you can just waded out right and and I think that those two things one it doesnt saw the problem that much more Connell's corporate overlords want to be solved and Miss Mcconnell has concerns that this is his best chance to get it done, because he has less leverage next year when Joe Biden is present and you're buying get to decide what bill to site right now, he controls one act of Congress. White house and come January. He controls one of Congress, and that's it and so he's u in every tool in its toolbox went out at every, he can't help preparations in it is one of the only except by it is

actually hear anything. It is absolutely getting away with it. What so the state load waiting is. It was interesting to me, though, because he was willing to drop the liability shield altogether if they drop state Merkel aid which they really seem to fucking hate and the reason now they're saying that they wanted that that state locally. As such a sticking point is, I feel like I'm getting like PTSD on this, because this is like the story of all these negotiations in the past is Mcconnell, thinks that holding his caucus together is the most important thing right now, and so, even though right now, in that sense, it there is a majority for a by partisan covert relief bill.

Mcconnell, as seems to be saying, unless there is a majority of republican senators that want the bipartisan deal, there's no deal and he can't sell state local aid. Nor does he want state and local aid, because all these fuckin Republicans in the Senate, or at least a bunch of them, have bought into Donald Trump, crazy, fuckin bullshit that their blue state bailouts, even though just as many red states have fucking budget shortfalls right now, while this is an unusual right, the Republicans in the house, it was then that is what they do. They love us yet they having this. Is this is something that they named, which I do not draw the has to rule which man had to majority of the majority to take a bill to before the Senate had has not name did in such aid notorious way, but a similar approach right and so Mcconnell is, does not want you fracture has carcass,

Ultimately, these are all negotiating poise centre around whenever the best version of corporate liability he can get, and he also was calling demo its birth, because he knows how important it is to Democrats to include that. So we say: oh yeah, give up my thing. If you give up your thing, you can't possibly give up, because you know it so important. So how does this get done here? I mean, like so Democrats, said. No to Connell's offered to drop liability protection if they dropped at local aid, then out of the blue Fuckin Stephen Menuhin comes a guy comes then offer from the White House saying I'll, give you a nine hundred and sixteen billion dollar deal, though by partisan one, nine hundred eight, so first you're, like all that's pretty good but then Menuhin says ideal has no additional help on unemployment whatsoever. And will do six hundred dollar checks to everyone, and the Democrats said no to that. Did the Democrats make the right call saying no to both Mcdonald's offer an Manicheans offer

Yes, I think I think I'm anew can offer you can't take seriously when the house I mean he, even When tromp was still a person who at least pretended to do his job in new kin was kind of a joke and has been for the last six months in these negotiations, he does not clearly does not bring along any aggression. Republicans redress certainly no centre problems with them, so he is no different in some random person. Tweeting The potential do why he has no like, like laid down Did they turning it out? Who cares right like he has the like he's? No actual is not an actual player here. Democrats have come down so far from what need they pass before, which even they would admit, was not enough to deal with the absolute scale of the devastation here. And you have to give up all your lover, so you have to keep pushing I'm not sure Mcconnell really was the was off was going to deliver the deal he offered in so Democrats should keep pushing. There is still more time here. How does it

done. I dont know it times. We cannot admission, Conall decides it. He doesn't care enough about saving lives and saving jobs, help like that, that is on whom we ve seen this before we saw this in the early days. The Obama administration, Maccallum, there's no benefit, The idea is very, very plausible that Bitch Mcconnell believes that a bad economy for Joe Biden help strengthen mutual candles, had to hold the Senate in take the house on twenty two and that he would be willing to make people suffer for that. Gotta about economy, and I think he's his strategy is what republican strategy always is we're going to prove that job? I'm the Democrats can't run a government can deliver on anything like we're. Just going to mock at all up, obstruct everything, make sure that nothing gets done, make sure they can pass anything believing that the voters will blame the

already in power in the presidency. Instead of us there, it is weapon icing Joe Biden premises for by partisan cooperation against him. So what is bay fewer? I mean binding as our president, but if your policy and humor like what's the play here for the next couple weeks, I think that is really the next week and that we have to get the right word. Nineteenth rather gonna get the government funding dine like actually done or just kick the canned other than everyone's gonna go home and then It's gonna happen until a new. The new sat at the New House a sworn in epidemic. play point of view that is somewhat risky in the sense, then we're going to get you a bite in the White House, our house majority is going to get much much smaller, which we'll talk about later I think, the only we you can do is Republicans have given. crash messaging opportunity on this corporate labour thing, and I think you have to hammer the living shit out of mission of other governments for doing

Yes, now until we either have a deal or people go home and you have more money goes on in the reason, for that is twofold. One. We are the these Georgia elections. This is a like. We pulled this question back in this in the spring and our Michigan for and corporate liability shields are incredibly popular, even with republican voters. Obviously right picking corporations. America workers is unpopular. You don't have to have you don't need to be a pulsar know that, but so you hammer for the chance that you could deliver political benefits, but it also puts pressure. It strengthens your hand in the deal right if people begin to feel put pressure if this becomes an issue. Georgia and Republicans fear they could lose those seats. Because of this, the mechanical cut a deal much faster, and so did you then my thing, the whole time is make this a fucking issue in Georgia. Make this the issue of georgia- and I see like I see one-

takin off at least tweet about it. I haven't seen it there ads, obviously not down to Georgia, so I can see the campaign of clothes, but you see outside tweeting about the one thousand two hundred dollars checks. You see we're not talking about this to, like, I think, making this the big issue that the race turns on is a pretty good eye, is a pretty good idea, yet ever been I've that this is something you ve US wartime. I've been sort of obsessive corporate liability she'll for while I wrote about this morning in the message box, and you're, actually like MRS this- is completely unrelated to my newsletter this morning, but its shifting quickly, Katy Porter had a great twitter. read about it? Last night Nancy Policy, this war, When speaking to reporters made the point you can see, we need you, as a party speak with one voice loudly relentlessly ruthlessly about this, and one of two things has gotten: we are going to make them public.

since pay some measure price for this or we're gonna get a deal. Either way. This helps and I get. We are the word middle, a pandemic, it's. After an election, we're trying to figure things out by trying to get his cat like there's a lot happening here right binds going to Georgia next week. I was just going to say if I was Joe Biden heading to Georgia, my entire fuckin stone speech would be focused. There is one reason that we not have relief from this pandemic right now, One reason you don't have another round of checks: the you're gonna kick daddy your homes that work have trouble distributing the vaccine that people can get child care. The can get rentals, this dance, we can open the sky rules and that reason is Mitch Mcconnell and if you dont, send us often worn out to the Senate, then Mitch Mcconnell is gonna, run the show for the next two years, he's gonna block. All of this help, for you he's the one person standing in the way of life

referenda yet Irene. I would love to see that you will have to see it. I job I started a job, that's not very Joe Biden. I meant it Adams a key job. I aids to when he shows for Georgia, be the Joe Biden that people voted for in Georgia one month ago, and rightly so, all this and turning into like ripping Mitchell Connell's head off on the stump is not here, but there is a way to make this point. That is a Joe Biden way of doing it. Talking about this stakes and talking about what is blocking aid and how we can get around that target group like that can happen and what does well. The biggest Joe Biden thing to do would be to say there's a by partisan deal. It's not that It is deal. It's not everything that we want as Democrats, but Republicans and Democrats have come together around a deal to help people and Mitch Mcconnell and Kelly. Leffler and David Purdue are standing in the way of that by partisan deal. That's that's very Biden. You know like east

I would keep the shit out of him on that. Ok, so spina by looks like, but the latest round of cabinet picks from from Biden bigger, this week was General Lloyd, Austin, secretary defence. Ostend is a retired forced our general who service commander of you Central command and oversaw the withdrawal of american troops from Iraq. If confirmed, he be the first black secretary of defence, but as a potential sag here in order to maintain civilian control over the military. The law states that secretaries of defence must be seven years removed from military service, often hidden then retired for little over four years, which means he need waiver pass by both houses of Congress only to other waivers have been granted in american history, most recently for general, Jim Madness in twenty seventeen. So why do you think that bind went with Ostend over former Obama Pentagon official Michel Flournoy? Who was widely believed? be his topic. Just a few weeks ago, I dont have a satisfactory answer

by nervously and in this was talked about, and so the numerous about he worked very closely general Ostend. When Biden was working on the with Iraq withdrawal, he worked very closely with them when Generosity was overseeing the campaign against ISIS in Syria and twenty thirty in the second Obama turn. and so they will have a relationship. Elsie knows, Michel foreigner is well it's hard like you and I have work the land, people who run binds team her cabinet nominees, I have never worked with generosity in or Michel foreigners, so hide all its for me to judge like say what the right thinking people there, you don't you and I know and respect the. Why say very positive things about both of them. So read it. I assume it is because of the relationship they had in the respective Joe Biden developed for him when they are working very closely together on those two really important issues, and it gives him a measure of confidence and I don't know that this is this may say more about how it feels about

General Austin anything about Michel for no, he was obviously incredibly qualified and the integrated experience and intelligent, etc is Bite is clearly gone, but people he knows a lot of these places where in it it makes sense and Amanda. Let been orphaned forever. Something pointed this out today talking about something that Erasmus today is to think you have to recognise its trop hollowed out the government right and she the reference that Michael Wilbur spoke. The fifth risk talking about how trumped has guided career professionals from every government in binds response, as seems to be putting and people with deep amounts of experience in the in the departments. That work non in taking fewer sort of role. The dice risks with out of the box people we dump I gotta know may be taking the ceo of excellence. We are sectors, think he's got a meeting with Russia I mean like

It also mirrors what the situation that we are facing. We ought to the White House in two thousand nine, which is now in the middle of a crisis: multiple crises, a pandemic recession right, like whatever Donald Trump done all over the world, and so would you needed a crisis. You need experienced people and you need to fill the jobs fast. So how do you find experienced people that can fill the jobs fast? You turn to people that you know that you ve worked with. You know, that's not a very complex answer, but its hits the simple answer in it. My deep what's happening here: now in this position in this scenario, Michel Flournoy would fit that bill absolutely because binds wherever there. I sort of wonder if its and you know again Tommy bending into this more positive, the rosy should check it out. But I wonder if it's like policy differences of slight policy differences, still policy differences about the use of force withdraw. You know like all that kind of stuff on them. I'm wondering if that, at the end at the end of the day, was sort of why he went with Austin overflowing give that may be

I mean any clurly. He made a judgment because the confirmation of General Austin. perhaps surprisingly, but will be more complicated than I think it would have been for Michel Foreigner yet so I can, at least for democratic senators, have already said that they won't vote for a waiver for Austin, a bunch of others say they have concerns. So the question is why why would republican senators held by now here when the democratic opposition gives? chance to sink. One of his nominations have been. This is when you think about your nominations is always critical that you prickly in a closely divided Senate, that you don't have control of, at least as of yet that all that you can keep your house in order and therefore you limit the amount of can see that the other side ass because for every nomination right, whether its generosity Michel for lawyer near at hand in or twenty Blake in for every one of them was just presumes,

It's called the centre right now prepared for the worst. I guess you're gonna need to Republicans right and so you're gonna have to find some way of getting the others interest, We should also presume that the vast majority for applicants with utter gets every bite nominee because that's a state of their party matter how qualified they are better, how non partisan they are. My vote against some, even if biting pick summit republican caucus, and we know this because Barack Obama pick Ok I'll, be a secretary defence in both their Hoboken supposed. So. So now a limited pool of Republicans who are possible votes for any nominee right. You have Susan Collins, maybe we summer cowskin, maybe report Mitt Romney, maybe a couple of other ones on the national security staff, but that's it in time you lose a Democrat. You gotta go find another public MAC, its heart, and so it s. No, it adds to the degree of difficulty to an already difficult endeavour

The only thing I keep wondering at mean the Biden is pretty experience. They ve been around the block a couple times. They not account votes. I would I be surprised if they chose Austin went through this whole roll out without having any idea that whether he'd have enough support dead now I I do, and I presume days tumbled into this, but it just it is. If you will for Democrats deck its it. It just gets out much harder, they must have some measure of confidence that there can be some number of republican to our o k with a non partisan general had.

almost the entire Senate voted to give this waiver to general matters for years ago, so it sort of harder to four flop on it for a bunch of them, perhaps maybe yeah- and I do I am, I think, really live up as an anchor civilian control over the military is a very important principle. You know I do think it like all since been retired for four and a half years, a little over four years, the loss as seven. I know that as recently as two thousand and seven Congress was debated changing it from seventy five anyway, like I'm, not sure if the difference between four plus years out and seven is, you know worth this much concern over it, but you know that surrogate arguments on both sides. Yeah it's over. It's kind of a weird situation, because in the trumpet ministration about you, Democrats voted for this waiver because they thought general matters would be a preferable as defence secretary to whatever Yahoo Trump yanked from

set up a fact show to do the job riots, emotional voted for ended, and I think we, compare how matters handled the job, and I am not one of those who is prepared to, patch matters onto the resistance about Rushmore like he one interview which have called is not does not undo the damage of enabling trunk, but clearly stood up to trot more the former military leader with the waiver stood up the Trump more than Mark Esper, the political hack, the trunk put in the job to replace them and so it is not necessary early, that the military person is going to do it our job of hands awaiting this the complicated situations, then non military person. But you know in doing research on this, with the the marshal ever was pretty bad and George Marshall, actually from sided or refuse to step in when there was a huge civilian military crisis which was Macarthur during the trip demonstration and so like. There

if you go either way. The real thing here is: bided ran in some sense, on what kind of restoring norms and getting back to normal and he made a choice or a sore of out of his lane to ask Democrats to not restore this norm that's gonna. Have it may be worth it given the quiet kind of defence secretary, he believes general, would, but it is a little bit it just like us. It s a degree of difficulty to something that should not be that your defence secretary should be a relatively easy confirmation. Yeah and it's you know, he's binds really asking everyone to trust him, others in that, basically what he said in the Atlantic PC wrote about. This is like he knows that this is unusual, but he strongly believes that often is the right person for this moment. So he's gotta make a case and so does asked into a lot of these

democratic senators and whose members who have to vote for the waiver, few other cabinet announcements or remedy announcements. From this week, Ohio, Congresswoman Marcia Fudge Secretary of Housing in urban development in Tom Veal, sacrificing his Obama administration job as Secretary of agriculture, so Jim Kleiber, obviously huge Biden ally who arguably helped him when the state of South Carolina the primary lobbied for funds to lead agriculture, partly because it's a position that has never been held by black woman, partly because he hoped she'd refocus the mission of the department on hunger. What did you think of that? And why do you think by an ultimately went with veal sack? The tunnels act was a phenomenon, agriculture, he is just someone who just does the work right. He focused on he was in trouble. Two. It wasn't doing that is a platform to something else. He wasn't trying to get attention from it. He wasn't on the diesel cars

he'll party circuit. He was just trying to help american farmers and help get food into the mouths of hungry people like that was his job. He took an incredibly seriously did incredibly well, He earned the respective every one of the White House from Brok Obama down for just doing the work and I guess I'm bills, I wanted to do it again and had felt tat. He had more work to do. and he was a loyal Porter of Joe Biden Campaign Forum, I will focus endorse them. And they know each other. I was very well, and I think this is a little bit like the awesome. Decision earth putting Chinese Lincoln it stay or several at o d ever hands at or dna is by mistake he knows he is coming in during recession of endemic prompts the hardest presidential transition in nearly a century, and so here put people in jobs or he just knows they can do the job, no other, training, no training wills just get to work and do it. I made

like. We have actually haven't heard him talk about. Why me decision, because it still in a sort of a confirmed rumour, I guess, but that be marked. That would be my assumption. Is you have someone who you know to great job too, was recently confirmed for the job, so let him do it. So one of their issue here is the Biden has now given jobs to two democratic members of Congress, Marcia Fudge and Sir Richmond, which means there credible likely have a two hundred and two. Need a two hundred and thirteen majority in the house, which is the slimmest and modern history there will avoid. Shall we be special actions to fill these two democratic seeds? They are safe, democratic seed. So that's not really the concern, but how much of a problem could this narrow majority be for binding? The Democrats in the first three days. I think it's very notable that this was dined at their request of clayburn and Kleiber unwanted not have made their quest without having talked in anti policy about it. So there is some. There is clearly so

confidence among the people whose job it is to count the votes that they can, that this will not matter in the short term and that these are incredibly safe, democratic seats so that you're gonna get those members in some number of months at the camera. What the social action provisions are in the states, but so yet it makes things harder, but is clearly a in the risk benefit. since the house leaders made a decision that they can handle it in a wolsey, obviously by Nancy policies, very, very good accounting vote, so she must have legitimacy knows what he's doing here. I will say one more thing about the marshal fudge. Gross acting as time goes like is great and he'll do great. I do hope that he follows the if someone of what Kleiber inside and tries to refocus the department more I'm the hunger sir,

of it is opposed to the farmers of Europe safe to do both, but we have a lot hungry people, its country. We have food bank lines that stretch miles and there is an opportunity to parent affair too, to focus on that and, I think clutter recycling rate to push for that where there is more funds or someone else in the world. The other focus that AG should have this time around is on climate change, and I read that bill sack of actually pretty excited about that differ to turn that attention of the department on you know how we can make sure we have said

sustainable farming in this country that helps reduce carbon pollution that the the backs of the narrow majority for a second it does make me think that there may not be other democratic members of Congress coming to the cabinet and that's notable because a lot of activists organizers have been pushing for congresswoman, Deb HOLLAND from New Mexico to be. She would be the first native American to run the Interior department, but I dont know if he'll take her out of Congress. Now I would be surprised that were happening is disappointing, because I think she would have obviously the idea of having a native american charges turn of interior credibly, historic and powerful, and important by there is clearly a choice made probably isa in some measure of concert with the house leadership that if there's gonna be one spot, they would be Marcia Fudge is what miss my assumption. Do you know how I see

is safe. Is there a swing c? Is it I think she was relatively easily and twenty twenty its nowhere. the neighbourhood of the Marcia Fudge seat or the central references which are majority black districts in the middle of very blue cities. That's what I was very getting at is that those two seats very, very safe seeds, and I you know, I saw some people now that Javier Sarah is there going to be a success secretary say: oh Newsome should appoint our good friend. Katy pour that'd be California attorney, general or Katy Porter should get something in the cabinet she's another one where she has a seat that like yes, she one in twenty eighty in and you want to get in twenty twenty. But like did she when comfortably enough that if you take Katy Porter out of that district, you know that the next democratically, when that district? Probably it's an plus three district, that it is not its Katy border has some spam.

we'll sauce there and that destruction and she has figured out how to win their but like, maybe not the next person. You know a democrat last halogen, Katy Porter, probably would have lost that district and twenty furniture very few other announcements. Are we just learned this morning that Dennis Mcdonough, Obama, chief of staff, are good friend, is gonna be nominated, for serve the viewer and Susan Rice got a job as the head of the deep sea, the domestic policy council. What do you think so a solid Dennis. I Dennis fur. Ever we worked together for Tom Dash all way back in the day and You can be someone who thinks you were a car that you get to the office early. You stay way your committed to the cause you think that until you be Dennis, who is the hardest working human being? I have ever met and

people say that about a lot of people, but it is you I mean it about. Identity has just like another level it it. I mean it as a level of commitment to the cause. That is only when he get to work at the crack of dawn it. He would run to work. You like how far life away from work. Five miles, you weren't five, my fails to the office, be there at six and then he would stay its waited. Let me he look like no one worked harder. He is a great human being. He with one very apparent exceptional talk about Dennis may be the person who does I do know lab to do this job, because the visa has been a bureaucratic morass for decades. People go they say they're going to fix it in a just say like it. It just feels like this intractable problem. I have seen death solve wegg. Theoretically unsolvable problems, just by sheer force of will buy he just like. If you just,

give someone a problem and get them to find a way to just fix it within no matter how many hours it takes now how hard it is to monitor how the people to bring in Dennis, is the person to do that and that that is binding, Dennis incredibly one that is clearly what he and it is interesting because then it is not a veteran which is an important point and that what is very unusual, if not unprecedented, for a non veteran to be nominated to be that at the end, So better and groups have what I park of legitimate concerns about that element of that fact, if Biden Clear, working as he said. What I want to do is make this a lot. Better person that I have worked with my life and what they could best do that, based on everything I saw him do is debts and yeah. and so that it is very clear choice to take on some measure of political risk in some measure of turbulence, by making it not better to do something that binding.

leaves- and I think he is correct- Dennis will be very, very good at. I will say that that brings up another point about sort of all these o bomber folks who are now are getting jobs in the bite investigation. The it's not just experienced that sort of unites them all. It is a specific kind of experience which, as they are all really fantastic managers, they like run a really good process. The same with Jeff Science. That's Dennis that Susan, its teller, that's Tony! That's a real right, like all of these people are known for just working well with others in running a really great process in getting shit down It's not necessarily like you know, a deep experience in any special. Policy area that send that sets them apart, though, all of them are brilliant in their policy areas, but it really is sort of the management stuff which speaks to Biden saying like yet Trump fucked up the whole government were now in crisis, and I need a bunch of people who can clean shut up.

No one would think, but Susan it. I was surprised hearing that Susan was get ready pc because she has an extensive foreign policy background now dp see. We should know that, like the domestic policy council, but of course, there's like a whole bunch of people, handing handling economic issues, there's like a separate healthcare team rights of some of these domestic issues fall under different departments and teams. Deeply see does a lot of work on education issues. on a sort of diversity and racial equity issues on immigration, national service. So, like a lie other issues that sort of fall under this fall into that category yeah adds the whole suite of issues that the buyer has promised to make at the top of its agenda. They were structural racism that will fall under the deep sea, I like you, I was surprised. I know Susan as the as Obama's foreign policy Visor Mackay Bay in the EU, about the U N n

national carried visor, and so I was thinking about what role should capacity planes. Government domestic policy council was not high on the list of things I thought of our on the list at all, but they things are worth noting. Are Susan, his brilliant just brilliant Biden completely clearly trust or to the point that she was apparently the runner up to be vice president clearly one at her in his administration, the place in which he can leverage her tremendous talents, and this was the place you back to add. I'll, be various. You see how everything structured every white house- it's different, we Health care are emergency into piles of healthcare was sort of adjacent, The dp say: maybe Healthcare begin here. I do not see how that works? Bye, bye saw someone that he trusted in White and Bobby and had a lot to offer and went found a place to have but I think it is to her

speaks or dedication to public service that she's going back into. Do. This certainly didn't need to see it as a very different job than she had before, or you know- and she was someone who will it was on the costs, would be investments in its agents can, Then, in a start up my very senior staff, I was still staff level and it's you know, I think their beauty from a lot of the bad people, the worthy about him. You think about over to realise what an important moment it is for the country, but a dangerous nobody as they think they are something offers. So they are their rush again to do that, I think that's what lies behind Susan, not just binds decision it ass. You senator, but Susan sufficient decision to agree last big one. That's out their cabinet position does come others, but that the poor, the biggest one, is attorney. General reports are that Dog Jones is the front runner with Mary Garland stolen the mix. It seems like solutes, who was in the mix, maybe a little done

this partly because if you do have a republican Senate, she could have some confirmation issues and she was part of Russia Gate. I put that in quotation marks in this said she in a form tromp about a Cry In progress being committed by his own register them in this in the sense that you follow the letter of the law perfectly and was an upstanding public servant who proved herself to be. I have the utmost and eat less. Yes, that's has in that sense, and that's it. I'm anchored republican and trying to stop crime. No big strike against you, ok, so so Doug so dug it does seem like its pointing towards Dog Jones. I guess Merrick. Ireland could be the surprise there, but what would you think what I don't I? I love the idea of Jones. I think he like papers all you know one of the reasons that he was such a strong candidate,

in our bam other for some around when you won. The special is not just that he is a man of integrity and like a progressive who could figure out how to win in the south, but also you know his is a long history, as in civil rights, as a civil rights activist is well and and talked about that alot during his rates. So I think makes a lot of sense at the justice which obviously haven't had a stellar track record on human rights over the last four years. The I'd look, I we love Doug Jones. We think he is good I didn't realize this until it's the stories. He actually has a very long relationship with Biden into I didn't housing, I didn't have they know each other for a while, and so I think that That is one of the the ties to that. Certainly one of the threats that run through some eighty sources is by no seven trust them. and I totally get that additional. Just like wanting to have people around you that you trust your do your asking you take over. It incredibly proposes we're you're, not gonna, have time

to manage every single departments. Are you gotta put people and that you can trust to do them, and I think that I feel is about jobs, It'll be a good choice. Merrick Ireland, being same choice, not because a lot because you're a girl is awesome. He is an incredible purse in an incredibly talented pulse of things, But he also system Deasey Circuit Court of appeals and you're not going to take someone out that Easy Circuit Court of Appeals and allow Miss Connell to block that sea Mcconnell. Would when joke when brought him. I was President Deasey sort of articles and, secondly, escort the land. It's where most of the the big government political decisions happened before it gets report Mitch Mcconnell. A man who practise court shrinking back then refuse to confirm a single member in about second term to that court up until the public, for is what eventually forced carry read too limited to filibuster, fortuitous elimination. So if we if we win the senate- and It wants to do that, but we

a vacancy Medici Dc Circuit Court of Appeals, seems insane to me. Yesterday. Asia is one where you really need to see. Someone who you think is going to sail through confirmation of the fact that you know Jones would be voted on by a lot of his former colleagues might help right. He is his had good. ships, it republican centres to though this is gonna, be a tough, unlike Linsey Grams, already saying, I won't vote for any attorney general confirm any turning general who promise not to investigate Donald Trump, dissolve Gonna, be a bunch of attention now on. You know there's news yesterday, that that Hunter Biden is under federal and guests, give destination for tax issues like what's Joe Biden attorney General going to do about the fact that the Department of Justice is looking into his sons, finances I'm so like it's. It's that that's not a walk in the park either be a confirmation for attorney general. So you kind of need someone that you think is going to get through.

I would imagine and hope the Joneses. Then it will not be easy, like we ve seen Republicans vote against Senate colleagues before but Jones. I think when at least start with a stronger base of support, and I move greater ability to win over that handful republicans, we will need in a better situation. We do not accept it. The Porter Plaza America comes from Lord Jones makers of the world's finest DVD products CBS, all the rage these days, but pioneering brand Lord Jones is considered the gold standard. For years they ve been changing people's. With their premium see products from world SK care to tinctures in jail, capsules to decadent gum drop confections. If you're curious, I would see what I can do for you trust me. You want to start with the best. Lord Jones is crap but the highest quality ingredients in premium, hemp derived CD, that's lab, tested for purity, strength and consistency. In fact, Lord Jones has been featured in the New York Times. People vote vanity, fair and more.

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the general election pulling in Georgia was quite close to the final results compared to all the other states, but all we need to know is that these are two very tight races within them: and of error. On Sunday night there were two debates: Raphia Warnock versus Kelly Leffler, John ASA forces an empty podium since David produce didn't respect Georgians enough to even show up and debate. At least Kelly Leffler was thoughtful enough to send the robot version of herself. What's let's play club, the Democrats when a fundamentally change America and the age of change is my opponent, radical, liberal, Raphia Warnock. You know my opponent radical, Raphia Warnock, radical, liberal Raphia Warnock has partnered with Stacy Abrams in these Voter suppression conspiracies, while predictably, you just heard more lies from Attica Liberal Raphia Warnock. You ve just heard radical liberal

Raphia Warnock lie again and my opponent, radical liberal, Raphia Warnock, would be a rubber stamp for Chuck, humor and Nancy policy. But my opponent, radical liberal, Raphia Warnock, is a socialist. They want to read it we changed our country and their agent of change is radical. Liberal raphia Warnock will thank you to everyone who tuned and to this important debate so poorly executed. Energy, but you definitely has a strategy and a message: Jonathan. Martin and instead Herndon of the New York Times had a good piece the other day about The overall republican strategy is to focus on Warnock over us off. Why is that Dan and wonder I I mean kudos to dinner times. Unease to reporters are just being very explicit about it, because his work Kelly. Wildflowers from an aesthetic point of view, her debate performance was horrendous,

I like it when you say like robot, is quite right. That is why I have never spent time watching Kelly Leffler speak. Nor do I know what David produce hands like you, just see them me, you see their attack. I did not say much about themselves, stir up but like watching her. That debate is just like, oh my god, just just robotic weapons. Bringing a wise? It was fucking honest perhaps the rest sought all public in articulate Have their message. Yes, she called rough. Your work, a black man, the embodiment of the change, the Democrats. America, which is the entire republican message we is black people, brown people, immigrants. Hollywood elites are coming for your white american culture. That is what magazines that is what they are doing and that, like that is underway Here- and it says I I-

say the way that that story was written in this is not because of their porters. It's just the sort of the way there publicans exchange. Other quarters is you know that whole thing we're David produce too much of a wimp to defend his inside. It trading on stage that works, advantage. Like there is a little bit of like red cutting how shitty one of your two candidates is too to make. It seem smart, but, like this very consistent with this strategy. Republicans ran in twenty twenty. Yeah, I was there a couple thing with Warnock. Obviously it is number? One in the Republican play back is inflame racial division. They love that right. So you have you have someone who would be the first black democratic senator in the south ever an so perfect right, racial division? There's a couple of things:

Warnock ran in the in the general, because it was an open primary. You know a lot of it. It was Lefler and Doug Collins going after each other and no one went after Warnock there as much and so of all four of these candidates. Warnock has the best favorables in the lowest unfavorable is if any of them and he's relatively unknown. So this is been a about defining? Warn our greatest that's number one number two is theirs array strategy, but there is also the the twenty twenty playbook strategy that you just said, which is accusing Democrats of being radical liberals who want to defend the police and assurance socialism What, if any evidence, do we have at this point about the effectiveness of this attack in the general election that we just went through? We don T yet know Oh I'd to say this was the thing that happened right. We do know that Democrats, name Biden running it gets rubbing. His dog named Trump, tended to

struggle in swings, dates. And we know that Joe Biden ran against tromp. His message was about Trump, the political conversation was all about Trump, the republican message. So the democrat mess. We Democrats red, deserve a dramatic of civilization, but Democrats ran against strong and Republicans ran against Democrats. And that is actually because your mind was a strong candidate- tromp went looking for ever, a possible way to soften Biden up. He was that he was in the pocket of China that he had dementia, that he was crops, that he was an anti for super soldier that he was ready for the police in none of that ever stuck on show by because it was they were. There was absurd and people new job I, but when they did run in those trumpets ran- and we will you when I look at some of the that's when we did campaigning

Its react a few weeks ago is they ran. They try to inflame their base by running against radical Democrats like a Yossi ill Hon Omar socialism etc, etc, etc and they're trying to re run that play, and that message in my God has some could potentially effective in a world in which people don't sweat tickets anymore and they default a partisan identity. And so, if you were brandy, Democrats in a certain way and it is a message that is completely consistent with the programming on Fox NEWS and right wing media for well over a decade, and so it it has context and so the trinity, because they they do not think that there can be any people who come out who vote for Kelly left leverage on us. That is not a thing. They think it can happen. So they re as many Republicans out as possible. They scare in Morocco, Warnock Indus presumed those people will also vote for the other Republican who engaged

Insider trading. Around a pandemic on the ballot, so it is clearly true that the message from Democrats, at least the message that came through the filter, was all about tromp in point twenty and that the message from Trump and Republicans about Democrats was, as you said, Riddick liberals Socialists defined the police are that bullshit, but I had originally thought that you know where a lot of instances of binding running ahead of most Democrats. Five thirty did a great piece couple weeks ago, where they say that actually there wasn't that much ticket splitting that it was very, very, very low percentage comparative into other years. That did the big exception. Of course, the most notable exception is main where Joe Biden ran many points ahead over five fighting with eight points ahead

Of Sarah Gideon might have in ten and there a coupled. There are only two other states where Joe Biden ran more than five points ahead of the or behind the Senate candidate, but, like overall House candidates ran about point five percent, but by which is nothing. But it's. The devastating losing yeah, the run bronzy burn up it by one two hundred and twenty three house districts, which is almost the exact same number as the seats that the Democrats will have in the house, so basically that these Democrats that lost in the house by also lost their district. So it's not that, like he won the district in the democratic and then, when you look at the senators right like Steve, Bookmark, Kelly, Jamie Harrison, Barber Boyer already ahead of by Higgins Super Gideon US off Cunningham around behind, so there's also,

a ton of Reimer reason for herein head of binding who ran behind in some of these states. I only bring this up because I think, when we figure out, we try to figure out like what we do now. I wonder if we can settle on. I wonder if its right to settle on the idea that there is something about Biden where these attacks bounced off him. That wasn't true for other Democrats, if it looks like by actually ran, close to a lot of these Democrats and a lot of these places. While so it's a couple things about this wine is even been a bite They won by whatever it is forty five thousand votes over three or four states like it? Is So that's the bed. The big thing so. This is how we, because transport training

election, it's good that we ve all pointed out. Yes, seven million votes like it's, it's a big margin, but when you get down to it, forty thousand votes go the other way it's to sixty nine to sixty nine and then trump ones in the house. Forty thousand votes, that's fucking, nuts so that that's one and so running just a point. percent or one point eight percent ahead is it was her winning a losing? So that's one too. I think it's important to maybe even just by an out of it because you have widened was running statewide instead in purple states, because,

of the White House, districts or John. The way the Senate Map works. Is the Democrats are going to have to out perform their party approval in these states to have power right, and so it like. I think we can take a wet like we should look at how Republicans branded us and think about. What we do about that now. I think there are two ways you can think say both robbing ran against us and they had success and were able to get people to vote against Democrats right anyway. Indicators Biden was dead, They knew who had the resources to our advertises opponent he was. Well succeed. You ve the markets, but that Sir

You work it then you say: do Democrats have a brain problem right Democrats not made by right, because the presidential candidate is always a bigger than the brand cow Cunningham bigger than the branch Sarah Gideon, not bigger than the bran at Random House. Canisters Elizabeth had nothing Then the brand totally Tanzania, because a brain from well Democrats are on historically and most recently, more the democratic parties more popular than the Republican Party democratic policies. Homework rather more of us. Waymore popular now is the wagon out. We did some of them, some of them. They summon the yes The overview were to take the entire democratic agenda: Poland, the Czech Republic, in Agenda Poland. We would win more by way more of us and they went and the best, I believe it is the unwary nor pointed out in last week's ifs and buts. America is in Florida turbines on about he sports fifteen Diamond wage Donald Trump. Some about he doesn't support a minimum wage period. He does that is actually

should exist? There's a fifteen are minimum wage bout initiative. They get sixty percent of the votes, Joe Biden, sport affecting I've been in wages for semi sentiment, thing has happened with medicate expansion in deep, deep red states all across the country club it out I'm doing right to work laws of Missouri. You see a bunch of these now. Of course, people move support, don't agree with the party on ninety percent of things you can be in public in and also thinking, and we should really be a democratic think something something on whatever else by you should be able to narrow the gap between sixty and forty seven. but this so that one way of those they worked like. How did you have a democratic for other thing is that I am more interested in war obsessed with. Is It is our version against Republicans of the radical democrat attack. What is the way, we describe Republicans not named tromp in one specific, consistent way that can undo

separate brief, with separate even on the margins they this very tenuous alliance. They have between a base that is working class and agrees with the Democrats on the majority of sort of core economic issues and a daughter class. The details. The policy agenda is Pro Wall Street Anti regulation, protests, guts for corporations, etc. Cetera like what can we do? What is our version of that and so there is well in space, typically an economic issues. What what? What is most popular right, corporate accountability and attacking corporate malfeasance, as you have pointed out with the corporate liability shield that is like at the top of every list and then economic policies that give working Americans a boost, whether its minimum wage, whether its expanding health care? What you know like those are the pot. Those are the policies that are most popular, not just among Democrats but among independence and even a small segment of the republican basis.

Well, then, the folks it navigator research had a really interesting pole. Mosque in the weeks that looked at cultural preferences in economic preference, and that a lot of the voters who went for tromp were serve available to us are conservative. culturally and that can be on. Police issues, which the robins so grossly race to the top here could be iron reproductive reads: a host of things but agree with economic issues. I think the history tells us that simply saying making a policy case is not so right, you say, and I would say and simply saying, I'm gonna make an economic case, and it just ignore immigration, police, violence, racial issues. Can you can't do both because it's not what we believe like we believe in those issues in its important attack, but this issues, but also, if you don't talk about them, Republicans going to talk about them for you and they're, going to destroy your position on those

and there was something condescending about the way Democrats of sometimes done this, which is hey, I'm fucked, gathers. Don't you white more the higher minimum wage or like like? Why you too dumb to recognise that were the right party for you that, is voting against your interests. Assholes like we have to pay a vision of America in a vivid way that has good guys and bad guys and shows the republican side with the back. So how do you take the sort of economic issues and tell a story about it in a way that has the same emotional pull as the cultural story. Republicans tell. I like, I don't have the atom how that works by that? That is the that is the only path. There is no other path to success here. That does not that is changing them them: surgeons among some somebody's demographic groups.

This is sort for the why I started by bringing up the point about the tickets, flooding and all that it looks like from all the data were seeing that the story of this election was like you'd go state by state swing district by Swing District Joe Biden turned out more voters than Hillary Clinton in almost every single one of these districts and states. Even in purple and Reddish areas, he just turned out more voters than she did and twenty sixteen. It wasn't enough in a lot of these places, because Donald Trump Fucking supercharged Republican turn, in the same places. So if you look at the twenty sixteen results you see like buying over performing Hilary, just getting more votes, and then you see Trump when you twenty way over performing trumped twenty sixteen. So if that's the case, if what we're using here is not a bunch of people who are like well, I voted democratically time. But now the Republicans around in this argument about the interchange parties, but it just a whole bunch of voters who did

even vote last time coming out to support a Republican, then the only way forward after we have had record turn out on the democratic side which we did is to say. Ok, how do we? Actually? reach some of those voters. I mean this is sort of why we ve known what it look. It's not because we like love these via that, not for any moral, its literally fucking math. We there is. There is no other path, but we are playing on. It built in place. It is if you weren't a football game and that their eggs, it's a rigged, fuckin fields and it's a sort of as if you were playing football in their touchdowns, counted to seven points in our tonnes. Kindest. Five like we just have to do it. Just for us, and we can, How about the electoral college yeah eliminate it fixed Jerry? answering right, the Senate's, fucked up DC a we about all this. We should. We ve been hearing about the fucking pot gas for years. We should do and guess what we have to gain power before we can do. Any of that we will never eliminate

electoral college or fix the Senate or fixed gerrymandering with a narrow majority in the house and in barely any majority in the Senate. Even if we have a democratic present, we won't do that. We have to empower offers in them. In the past. The power is through some of these very red and purposely districts, and even where we have turned out almost as many based Emma voters as we could find. No, and the reason why I brought up the party approval ratings earlier is so What can you like? Will Democrats or proper than publicans our policies more popular weren't? We willing more it's because in order to gain Our because of this rig political Plainfield Democrats have to win over more voters. There are sceptical of us and Republicans do. Publicans really only have to turn out their base in these, in a lot of these states, and they will control the Senate for as far as I can see and have a shot at the electoral college, even when losing the popular vote by seven million votes, and so like it's a fucking, hard,

Democrats, we have to turn out every Bayswater. There is and we have to persuade a bunch. We bore sceptical to us the way I think you We're going to be more sceptical towards a two step process. We have to begin to make them more sceptical of Republicans first and then we can win them over and that is why that is sort of where we get to the argument of language one gazillion meetings with a million pulsars making senators and my employer collectivist organizer to try to figure out what is the democratic slogan brand, etc. What is something that inspire there's our party, the rigged it requires in needs everyone for people who, what Joe Mansion revolve ABC we need everyone, both those answer over the middle. Like so what What? Oh that's? Look, I'm not like. It would look like fucking verbal applesauce would mean a lot We can probably agree on what we can get people who support your mission. Graham People's, where his ABC route has some way to describe the Republicans, and then you take that message. You use it relentlessly and repetitively in your hammer over the head and you trot you don't.

Have to win, you don't get anyone take their mega had off you, dont have to win a single person, who's been talk too, and a diner by near term support or what you have said, who is just shave. The margins cook reported this amazing too. before the election, where you can, I just the percentage of the vote by demographic group by white, now: college whites, college whites as we like, but voters, dean of others to show you how it changes the margins and states in overall, and it is stunning what two points will do just go. Give me two points. Better And the reason it was so off for the ripe. that thing a lot. The swing, amateur Davy instrument and cook is because all the poles are showing that Biden was doing significantly better among non college whites than Hilary, and that was not the case and there's a lot. There's a fucking lot of non carbon

here why people in the states that out up to seventy more than any one, would imagine- and there ain't nothing we can do about it, but just try to go to vote for us or hope it. They say home in Hindsight, why do we believe the poles. I don't like aids. It's like. I was talking to someone very smart about this. They thought they fix their fucking problems from twenty sixty at that they fix their problem from twenty. Sixteen number one and number two they were pretty accurate in twenty eighteen, though, as we are saying like some of the midwestern ones and twenty eighteen, we're still little bit off. We didn't notice. It is much because like did Gretchen Whittemore Win in Michigan. Yes, of course one by a lot, but she still won by a couple of points less than the polling averages did Tom of winning Pennsylvania. Yes, but did he went by a couple? You are less points in the polio just absolutely so there are still those fucking problems in Wisconsin was rejected.

Was like like Tony avers, one Wisconsin by like us, narrow, tiny margin after Hillary Clinton lost by a tiny margin in many sixteen, and yet we were exposed to believe that suddenly, Joe Biden leaped up to a six to seven point led we're fucking our its is. It is insane and Madame strictly better myself because it not being if any brains, but just out of natural cynicism. I was very six like I argued for a long time that the pandemic will change nothing. There will still be in this place and then, but if we did, they got. Everything that's happened, not just since Trump One, but over the last twenty years, there is none that should have let us believe that there had been such a dramatic shift in the demographic make up for the party like it, we are. We are in trench warfare, and this can be really fuckin hard. It can be done. We can win it, but one there's nothing to be some magic examples of that,

going to undo where we are? We just have to go to the work to do it and it's a lot of organizing a lotta strategizing and a lot of got persuading anodyne the same time, while one very small person who is not a lot about this who's gonna help us figure. This out is Not chinks of soil- and I will be talking to her right after that- Rick America is broadly by squares, pace with square space. You can turn your cool idea into a website. You guys you got any good website idea. Is that we can. We can into one I want it just sends you account or reminder that said. As I say? Yes, when they ask you, if you want more Pfizer vaccine- oh yeah, just that's very simple act now Yes to the pandemic vaccine Galileo, my first dose at the doktor, am I second dose I thought Mandalay Bay

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Stuff is again. I'm now joined by communications, expert, founder of air communications and friend of the pod, I'm not sure a surreal thinks we're going back to the show, thanks for having me unites our lot before the election about democratic messaging. Do the result and the data so far tell us anything about what works, and what did it depends on your asking, but luckily you asking me purse that's what I'm looking for. So what I can say- in particular. What I know best is: are the states that we worked most in witches the MID West end When I say we, I mean the race class narrative action project that I'm thrilled to have been aids to have played a role in alongside incredible team, of organizers, strategist, creatives, etc,

so specifically when we look, for example, at Minnesota, Wisconsin Michigan Pennsylvania, minus Minnesota, the states that weave among the states we flipped. Of course, I do not want to forget Georgian Arizona we just didn't happened have been working in those states and we look at what actually happens both in terms of turn out and persuasion and, of course, if you're, a carpenter, everything's a hammer so take with the grain of salt that you asked me so I am answering What we find is that our approach in those key battleground states of not just applying the race posterity an blunting, the assault of unrelenting right wing, race, baiting, but speaking decidedly, and relentlessly to what were four Alongside a lot of coal

Sean Building and in state organizing is what carried the day and can you just for for folks who haven't tuned in before to talk a little bit about what it looked like to deploy the race class narrative in some of these states? What did it sound like? Was it adds? Was it you know, organizing and and and phone calls and text banks and other conniston yeah? All of the above? So one of our core principles is that if you words don't spread, they dont work and if you have this supposedly magical narrative and it lives and dies as a Powerpoint presented right power corrupts, but powerpoint corrupts absolutely. The beginning and end of your narrative than you don't have anything what we deployed strategy was always equal parts song book and choir. If you will allow the analogy- and what I mean by choir, is bringing to

either the multi racial democracy that we are proportionately trying to build, and so in Michigan, for example, there is cross narrative action project was anchored with an organization called, We, the people Michigan, and it included folks from s here. You from the teachers union from farming groups in the upper peninsula from Detroit Action in wood consented included, citizen action at included. The farmers union included the teachers unions and I could on and on and on state by state, by state and so it was that choir equipped with a a message.

Guy that allowed them to speak coherently across issues. So we had for, though, a story line about education, storyline about the krona virus, storyline about racial justice, storyline, yes about protests and a shared brand, so an overarching brown that was both a visual look, so a logo, a color scheme, all of the things that you expect from a brand and they deployed it through peer to peer taxes, through deep canvas conversations through digital adds. We had a very, very robust digital, add strategy and through events I was up. I wonder if I do you especially by Minnesota, because you and I talked about Minnesota so much for the wilderness- and it is interesting to me that of all the midwestern saith, it's the one state where, by an improved most on Hillary Clinton performance in

sixteen an Minnesota happened to be the site of the George Flight protests where it began, where he was murdered and where the Republicans tried to do their shit fits What what was there? But what did the campaign look like in Minnesota and how did you sort of grapple with the various challenges and events that took place over the last year there, I want to add one more thing to the part about Minnesota witches so is also the place where the Minneapolis City Council put forward a proposal to quote unquote defined the police. I just want to be very clear what exactly we were. Doing in Minnesota and how and and what was going on in the place that we not just one but one handily decidedly as we do every year in Minnesota, had the highest border turn out in the country gap, so

in Minnesota. It's interesting. This is perhaps a greater level of detail them required in twenty eighteen. The branded campaign that folks their implemented that we helped create, was called greater than fear and our affirmative tagline was in Minnesota were better off together and we went back and forth it back and forth about whether we should continue in that branding or whether actually fear was so palpable and so tangible and so top of mind that we needed to go away. for now in a different direction, and that was the choice that we made so an and principally organizers in the state made, and so we want with a brand called we make Minnesota, which was really bout, a contestation of What is Minnesota a if the will and what makes up of that state What does it mean to co? Create a culture that the right? wing is demanding and is absolute. We eat

this Dagon and in trying to demonstrate is why it is you know- were- is salt of the earth, Heartland, etc, and how do we actually contest for that state aid? and so what we make Minnesota was like greater than fear was a fully realised branded how they look at how to logo it had digital adds. It had social media properties and he had organizing, and what it also was- was a relaxed this insistence on speaking to what were, for so one of my many ways of treating the laughed- and I have an entire you know encyclopedia- is that I believe if the laughed had written Story of David. It would have been a biography of Goliath again. What I mean by that, maybe it's obvious is that reaches love to talk about our opposition. It's our favorite thing to do right.

like we can not get enough of talking about the other side, and particularly in a trump, is like the nth degree of that, but it's our favorite pastime more generally and we make Minnesota really was because its built out of race, cognitive insights is speaking about. Who we are or and how we stand within for each other. And now true in terms of, for example, making an affirmative demand. We need a government who care for us just like we care for each other and Yassum Steppin straight and there it was evident, and it can He knew to be evident right now this week, as there are no patients going on with the many up was city council around what actually is going to be implemented around policing in that city and insistence, We know what keeps us safe and a call to- and I quote- fund our life

and to move money from the destructive toxic, harmful, caging income rolling of people based on what they will quite where they come from and where they live toward the priorities. Every single family, black white and brown needs to get and stay. Well, that's an interesting way of talking about defending the police puts us it's funny. You brought Obama answered a question of defending the police from such ass Peter happy because some consternation like I'll just ass. He d questioning

every how Peter S O bomber, which was like, if you're young activists today and you believe, really passionate in a slogan bike defined the police. What's your advice to the activists, knowing that a lot of politicians won't go near that phrase, even if the nuts and bolts of the idea might be popular yeah, so I have so many answers to that question. The first is that I dont believe that it's my role, especially at the white person, but I don't believe it's my role to tell black people how to protest their own genocide. I just, I fundamentally believe about that's wrong you're, so there I'm in disagreement with the president not the first time, but you know so that's the first thing. The second thing is that all gods critters got a place in the choir

and the way that you actually all ter public perception of a concept in an idea is by having a left flank, and it is only because, let me underscore there was a street He Jack coordinated, intelligent, well carried out and long time, demand to defend the police that we were able to. You in Minnesota, for example, tariff! or word a message of fund our lives. The old reason fund. Our lives actually had meaning for people, and we know what keeps us I've had meaning for people is because there was the given the gang of an activist demand to define the police. So our message was occurring in I have a context? The next thing that I would say is that I mean it almost laughable, it almost laughable. You know it: of these, like, I will laugh, so I don't cry notion that people's perception of debt-

crime is made. Democratic candidates is made out of what those candidates say. I mean I got me a great that's nice reality to live in, but it's just simply not you, and I both know that, like regard, so what you support and what you believe in your going to be pilloried as an anti far hugging. So the West, you know right, barks like lots of other descriptors, which may or may not be each unit which have nothing to do with reality and of the notion that Joe Biden is a socialist like that's ha ha ha right. He is, he was the senator from Mastercard like a socialist. He is not so What we need to do and, as you know, this is really my push back on the kind of hand wringing around. He found the police unless you have

clear and well articulated stance of what you are for and that's what I mean by. We know what keeps a safe and we need him of our money into the priorities that will fund our lives. If you, running as a Democrat, and you are carrying a message of what you are for then the deeper Police conversation should not be freaking you out, because it's what's making you look, moderate unreasonable if you dont have a message, because you got scared to death and any I'm a conversation about Rachel Justice or raised or protest came up. You were taught to deflect into not answer. That's why you that's part of why you are getting tired and feathered with a concept that you may not even endorse, because you haven't actually said wait or for

Yeah well, it makes a lot of sense because it's a very tricky issue in that you like look into the data ray and around the time of the protests, and even after you have like large majorities supporting black lives matter, feeling better about black lives matter than at any point in history, and when you start pulling the details around, what sort of reforming police departments will look like in assent in essentially defending them, and if you ask people like, would you rather have a first responders agency? That's not Meda! Please would you rather have more mental health professionals and substance of these professionals. You see that's very popular and yet like what you have to figure out. What to say to the people who are like there's too much police violence. I think we need drastic police reform, but I still want a police department cause I'm worried about what might happen to me in the end in it's like how do you reach that person who's gonna? with you on the reform sighed and said: yes, let's drastically reformed the police departments, but I am this part of me in the back land. It's a little work

reed, I might not be set. You know, like its figuring. That outward seems like the real challenge. Yeah, that is precisely why we leaned into that hunger by talking about how we know what he says. If we know what keeps a safe its, being in communities where black white and brown, we know our neighbours and we look out for each other, we know what keeps a safe knowing that, at the end of the day, regardless of what look like or where we come from, our loved ones will come back to us healthy and whole, but today Too many of our police target, detain and even kill black people while weeds, and ever more dollars to militarized police, whose budgets are already out of control We need to move our money in order to fund the priorities in every one of our lives: great mental health quality schools for our kids, making sure

we can all get the care. We need I'm coming up with this off the cuff, so I would edited back, but basically yes, people have a hunger. You you have to under and what the underlying psychological desire is, and you have to meet that desire, and you have to set it up. In contrast to the present day,. which is both not meeting their actual desire, they're, not getting what they need and what they want, and it is completely and totally unacceptable and unjust and its horrifying right. So that's the way that you do it that's when you talk about it and you know if you need any further proof that the kind of under reported thing about this elections There are many but like look at Indianapolis Indianapolis passed. What is arguably one of the most comprehensive police oversight initiatives ever don't talk about it closely,

Indianapolis I, and they did it. Also. Seeing the rays cos narrative and leaning into this idea that we know what keeps a safe and we know what we need and we need to find the priorities of our lives. Were you surprised that, after four years of Donald Trump, it looks like the electorate was less racially polarized than it wasn't? Twenty. Sixteen with more white voters moving towards the Democrats, more latino voters moving towards republican That is not all in yet, but it seems like black voters, either didn't move at all, or maybe there is the slightest movement towards Republicans yeah. I think it's really really important to parse apart racial attitudes and racial demographics. So, Inter

life. Racism is a real thing, so to say that we were last racially polarized. I don't think that's accurate. I think. Even if we got into accurate data- and let's be clear, exit polls are not accurate data by any stretch of the imagination. I know you know that our proposal on yeah acceptance at bad bad even once we have the full voter file available and were able to look and say this many african Americans there's this many Latinos that etc. That is actually very different. measuring racial enmity. among those groups, and while we tend to do a conflation where we talk about Rachel Pollard, and, being you know, white people did theirs, and black people did that I think a form were used? full analysis is people who harboured ratio

resentment against some group or who bought some sort of argument that it was because of some vilified sir, whether that other be you know, delivered in the of the simple invective Milwaukee or Detroit, which of course is cover black people orally I believe in our way of life, which is coat for Muslim or their take. our jobs, which is called for in the magical immigrant. Who is both doing that and not working, that's a high agree of racial resentment and from the studies that we have seen most recently, that's increase drastically. I get interesting to listen to colleague your colleague in Haiti Lopez, Socrates, Azra Klein on his past- and he says something interesting to me. That was, you know

but we now see and hear what a lot of Republicans and Donald Trump are saying as not dog whistles, but bull horns and just full out racist right, but a lot of voters, maybe them, even though already voters, still there still dog whistles to them and I noticed that in your guide, you know you sort of advise against just call saying someone is racist, as opposed to saying therein flaming racial. Does it divisions or their pitting races against each other? Can you talk a little bit about sort of why there is the need to do that and are the difference between people hearing something is racism are hearing it as a dog whistle yeah lately. So I wish that everyone had the chart in their office

in their home of the like all the kinds of racism right, institutional racism, interpersonal prejudiced and strategic racism, etc by it turns out shockingly that's, not the poster they drew up with her head I don't know who they had I'm gonna date myself. I guess they had in saying I don't know births, bribes, Leubronn and not sure so. People. unfortunately, still there they dominate understanding of racism among obviously non non, well informed scholars or just really really socially and politically active people, the dominant cultural understanding of racism is really more akin to the word prejudice by which I mean you know when we. I'm kind of one group of people doesn't like another group of people or when a person harbours negative attitudes towards a group of people based upon their racial characteristics,

course. What we know is that that is not the definition of racism right. Racism is interpersonal prejudice, plus institutional, social, cultural power. and so unfortunately, We see in experimentation. Is that when we say so, and so was racist, or this is racist, it actually reduces The enormity of what they're doing to seeming like. Will you just don't like ex kind of people cause reasons, cudgel prejudice when in fact What racism is meant to convey is this much broader, accurate idea of you know, bill

into the structure of our society, where we are advantages and privileges, one group of people over the other and have since our founding. So it's that racism. I e note, I guess the joke. I go the way of making light of it I would offer. Is racism is simply too important a concept to talk about using and unhelpful word like racism. It's not communicating what we needed to. So that's the first issue is that it falls short of its job. The second issue is that its unbelievably important to ascribe motivation- that is perhaps the biggest lesson that we can take away in terms of how we talk about why We oppose, even though we expect more of our time talking about what were four in the bed where we do need shock, bubble, we oppose because we do. We need to be clearer, not just the what they are doing

the. Why, and so, when we talk about so, and so is racist, or that was a racist thing to say what that takes away is the fact that there is a strategic purpose find it, and so the appalling open, aw whistled, the narrating, the dog whistle approach is to say the dividing us from each other or more pointedly their shaming and blaming black people, new immigrants, Muslim Americans. You know whatever is going on in the particular case, so that they can keep ass from joining together to demand what all of us need, or their shaming and blaming whatever the group is in the particular case. Hoping will look there away. While they pick our pockets and dismantle Social security or so they can distract us. their failures in this pandemic. So we don't just want to say

what they're doing we want to make it clear that there is a reason behind it. Yes, that's that makes a lot of sense. So we're Democrats. We almost immediately engaged in a very public debate after the election about why we didn't do better you treated. I love this. the fact that we are having this whole progressive research centres and debate in our outdoor voices is proof positive that we have not learned to. selling the recipe and start selling the brownie. What what you mean by that I mean by that and and credit today, mats was upholstery from California than he is he's the originator of the brownie analogy, which I used to death. What I mean by that is multiple things. First and foremost I mean: can you imagine it going tool if, if we were in theatre, which we are re, politics is just the inner with bullets, but imagine we were mounting a theatrical production that that was actually our line of work which, like I said it sort of, is it is best

yeah. I basically is but it's a war mounting a theatrical production and John you and I were like you know what I think the audience really wants to see. I think they don't they don't want, see the show. I don't want to see us like on the stage knowing our lines like with our costumes already our voice is born, DOB, like singing in harmony. That often see that's what they wanted they don't even want to see the table read you know what they want to see. They want to see the debate you and I have over how we should prepare the actors and where. We should use method acting or Stanislav ski and in which direct oral procedure if we should use and whether we should have walking that is more realistic or that is like sir realistic to heighten the drop like can you? then, if the way that theatre operated was instead of like actually seeing a show, you were treated to an endless conversation about naughty it. Not

and the table, but, like I said like, but how to rehearse the show don't first of all its just fucking boring like let's just say that just fucking boring It's not a thing that should be discussed in an outdoor voice, because the thing that should be discussed it isn't it in an outdoor voice when we are on stage not backstage, is what we're gonna deliver for people. So the recipe is where we like to take. Our policy walk out in public great paid family leave, raising the minimum wage. What actually moves and motivate people is not the recipe, but the brownie you're there, the first time their newborn smiles everything. But one of us can make an off to put food on the table and be home in time to eat it. We need to stop selling our policy is stop taking those out in public and start selling the outcome, the beautiful tomorrow the lived experience of what

Would be like to actually come home to and reside inside of those democratic policies, you mix licence. in terms of the centre enough in Georgia. Obviously, the people who know the state s we taken lead on message that you need to hear much from us, but what, in your opinion, has been most effective in terms of what you ve heard from the candidates are seen in their ads. Yeah huge underscore huge agree with you: Tom, Georgia's God, Georgia. If we don't believe that by now, you didn't notice the presidential election incredible black, let organizing their strategic small, relentless all the things. And also I mean- Georgia is in some ways my friend and colleague, from way when Jennifer ain't pointed this out in Georgia is like from central casting for the race costs. Narrative right, you have this jewish invest

native journalist, millennium guy. You have a african American, charismatic incredible speaker, pastor, and then you have plutocrats. if ever you I mean they like they, they are the real cause. Narrative that happens to be a task that show so obviously, That to me makes a of sense. If it were to make sense to the organizers there and what I mean by thy? So that's one thing the second thing- and we do see this from the folks in georgia- is that its incredibly important too? ask your audience is as the hero of the story and actually not the candidates right, and we need to talk about the candidates, because one of the things that we do see in the research out of Georgia is just a lot of really basic confusion around like what is this run off? We just voted

Why do we have to vote again like what happened? How is there an election? There was an election. Did you just that and then just confusion around like. Why are there to people Why are we voting? You know for these two Senate seeds, third confusing, so needing to do a lot of name recognition stuff around Warnock off, but then also just needing to cast Georgians in terms of our GEO Tv as the heroic agents here right. So they couldn't bus. When voting, they couldn't stop us from counting. They didn't keep us from swearing in and have a job You know they will not keep us from swearing in Joe Biden having the will of the people prevail. Georgia, Lee the way and if they think they can do anything to block us, they got another thing coming. Georgia delay

for American we're doing it again in January. Do you say that, like there's a place, therefore, talking about sir, these covert relief negotiations in Congress and, if not just in general, I love to know what you think about democratic should be messaging discovered relief because it, it sort of seems to me again talking about plutocrats that, like Miss Mc Com, as the enemy here who is in again- and I were just talking about this- who is basically like doing everything he can to help corporations force their workers back to the job and get sick without a deal with any lawsuits. That's more and then put food on your table or keeping it in your homework. Given you healthcare, anything like that, yeah gas. Yes, yes and yes, I think that is not possible to talk enough about the pandemic. I use the word pandemic

because it it seems to convey a broader meaning. That is more than just the immediate help things, but also just kind of generalised crisis around economic insecurity? in all of the attendant things that are part and parcel of the krona virus. So pandemic tends to be like a bigger catch, all kind of effort, the kind of a word. So we definitely can. We cannot talk about the pandemic enough. We need to be like putting this bad news around their knack because they merit it? I mean the notion that a tiny handful of. Senators are deciding literally, who will live and who will die in order to make sure that someone can be. And other yacht it. It's it's it's kind of mind. Boggling I mean they could just with the stroke of a

and decide that fewer people than that people can eat bright. People's children tan make it through without starving that people can maintain a roof over their heads that literally as a stroke of the pen for them, and they just choose not to in order to further enrich ands exculpate people who have profited off this ban to amend its needs was unbelievable going anywhere. like the caricature of what people think Democrats would say about Republicans, except it's like a hundred percent. True yeah I I don't know how you said no there. By merely I mean you know it's probably even a metaphorical pen like I don't even know what they. Right away and hidden pandemic times, but it would take now thing we literally nothing that it would require no effort out of them to just actually make sure that people could be ok.

Not even do well but be okay and they choose not to its aggravated impoverishment. I mean there's a strong point where the charge goes from murder to genocide and- and we're pass that point, so I think it's absolutely essential to talk about the pandemic. Your question was specifically about that. Georgia run off and how we talk about that so here is the issue. Here is the trick GEO Tv getting people to vote is a very particular thing. It's not just a belief that people we need people to hold its behaviour. We need them to engage in so vote is a verb, and we need to remember that we have a huge body of data around what makes people vote and what makes them not vote.

And many times. What is intuitive too was ass. Deeply politically engaged people is actually absolutely the wrong instinct. In terms of how we mobilise folks, I like to call high potential errors. I We call them propensity because we make our own reality. We're not gonna. Do that so we think through this lands of the inner world politics? Junkies right like it's? It's it's a sickness really like John she's, a apt wait right, deep sadness right like were like dooms growing on Twitter all day long and like doing damage to our own mental health is not good. And so we understandably think through the lens of like, if we just make it clear, you know Vote for these two you'll have fifteen hours in our vote. For these two you'll have pandemic relief vote for these two like deal. That's what's tie it to their acts.

We. What we find over and over again is that the messaging that makes people go vote is talking about. Voting talking about voting itself is the most effective way to make people go and vote. I know it sounds facile. I know it sounds impossible, but that is true and it has been tested against every single possible issue area We want people to engage in a particular behavior. You need to talk about behaviour and you need to make people the heroic agents of that story. So what does that mean for talking about the pandemic? Inside of the context of getting high potential voters in Georgia to go vote? It means that we always need to begin with the agency an initiative of our target audience. So, for example, we have proven as Georgians that we will stand within for each other. We delivered meals,

delivered masks and over the summer we delivered protests to defend black lives. This fall we turned out, record numbers. Despite everything, they tried to stop us. this January, we will turn out again to pick a government who cares for us by voting for also and Warnock, we can make sure or families have. We need again stay well, so you always want to come back to you have agency, you have power, you have agency, you have power, and if your message is just this is horrifying because is this many men, you know this. Many hundreds of thousands are dad this many millions are. You knows I M unemployed all of the hardships. Then what that does to people is not make them think. Oh, I know, although cast about it yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I always learn so much from talking to you. Thank you.

Much for four during the programme and in offering us of your insights and and come back again soon. Thanks for having me thanks a lot for joining us today, we'll talk. You next week have agreed weakened by everyone. HOT save America is a crooked media production, the executive, sir is Michael Martinez, our associate produced is Jordan Waller its mixed edited Andrew Chadwick Piles. is our sounded Ginea Bay. A tiny so many to Katy, long, roman, puppet, Dimitrios Quinn, Lewis Carroll. Resting ingesting how for production support into our digital team, illogical, normal Conan, Yell freed in my look him who film and upload these episodes as videos every week.

In November, Georgia voters shocked the nation flipping our stately for the first time on those three decades. Now the world watches as our January Fifth Sinnott, one offs will decide the future of our democracy. Tenderfoot tv cricket media, bring you a new podcast gaining grounds. The new Georgia written and hosted by two of Atlanta's, our journalist, Rembert Browne in myself, show liquor gaining ground. Brings you stories from organizers, politicians and voters on the front lines of this political fight subscribe now on apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.