Pipe? I'm John forever co host a pod, save america and I'm cynical proclaimed in the vice president of politics. The crooked media we haven't relaxed in five years, and neither should you because the important work of political ends We can gauge meant, doesn't just happen every two years. Every measure relax a little bit, though right. Why don't we go that? It's none of my business, John. I haven't slept since twenty sixteen, but I do know same america's no off year's programme is here to help me stay engaged, threw out twenty twenty three wait. You haven't slept at all right Now you can donate to our know of years fun and sign up to stay in the loop on what's happening and how you can get involved via remote and in person, volunteer opportunities, targeted donations and more just had to vote, save america dot com to get started and shaniqua. I dunno take a week off in palm springs or something

welcome to special arraignment episode of pod. Save america

in February, I'm john love, it I'm tommy detour and we are lucky to be joined by leah, litman and Kate Shaw, two of the brilliant legal experts from the award winning strict scrutiny. Podcast great crossover welcome to the pot thanks for having us guys it's great to be here, thank god you're here. Alright, what a day guys carry all the legal arguments myself: okay, so donald trump surrendered to authorities in new york and entered a not guilty plea to thirty four counts of filing false business records. In the first degree, felony charges carry a maximum of four years. In prison for each count, manhattan district attorney, Alvin bragg accused trump of orchestrating a scheme with others to influence the two thousand and sixteen presidential election that involved paying money to porn star stormy.

annual playboy model, Karen Macdougall adore man, who claimed to have a story about trump following a child out of wedlock. In making those payments brag said the trump quote: violated election laws made and caused false business records in miss characterize the payments for tax purposes. Ok leah, we ve been hearing about how district attorney brags case might be based on a novel legal theory. Now that we know what the actual charges are. Can you break down what that serious? So it's actually not all based on a novel legal theory, but the novel legal theory is, I think, a reference to that This idea that the state charge here is a misdemeanor as a default by falsifying business. Yours is a felony when it's done with the intent to commit some other crime and hear what of the other possible other federal crimes that he's falsifying business records to conceal is a federal crime

I'll be kind of uncertain or unknown legal theory, or you know newly. The theory. Is this idea that the separate crime you can be falsifying your business records to conceals a federal crime rather than state crime, but this entire case and actually premised on that theory, because some of the other crimes that the statement of facts and the press conference indicated at the dossier is saying that trump was trying to conceal our state crimes of violence, state election law, as well as on state tax law. But there is, just as idea that lake, because It's a new legal theory. That necessarily means it's wrong or bad, or was a problem to bring this case, but the reality is that new sets of facts and new ways of committing crimes will sometimes generate new legal theories, and that doesn't mean the theory is wrong I mean I don't know how many new york business men are. In the habit of falsifying business records to conceal

stir marital affairs so that they can win a presidential election in fact and having some difficulties imagining like other people, for whom that could even plausibly be true It was just not that surprising that we haven't seen this novel legal theory tested before. I think, first of all, shame you for racing unfaithful. Female business people ah cutting affairs, and it's always the man see. This is why we never do episodes with more than two men on the theoretical so k. I heard so people arguing that so in the statement of facts that was released, they release the indictment in their release. The statement, a fact which is more interesting, is or tells the whole story brag did not specify sort of the state crimes that he thinks. Tromp was trying to conceal with the falsified.

No records later in the press conference, he said it violated new york election law, which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means. The hundred and thirty thousand dollar wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap in the false statements, in am eyes, books violated new york law. Why do you think he a didn't include all of that in the statement of facts and be seems to be suggesting that there are both federal crimes and state crimes. That trump was trying to conceal with the falsified business records right, so it turns out, as a matter of new york, state practice when you're taking this falsification, misdemeanor and bumping it up to a felony, because it's been committed in furtherance of some other crime. You actually we need in the indictment papers to charge the other crime and you actually don't it turns out need to specify the crime brag said that very clearly at the top of the press conference today. So I think what he was doing here was actually pretty can system with new york state criminal practice, but, of course, these documents

scrutinised in a way that distinguishes them from ordinary charging documents and so I think there was a lot you know as early as in just kind of alluded to a lot of like and and hear rending about the failure to really specify the state and federal crimes that these falsification offences may have been committed in furtherance of. But of course, there are broad references that I am sure will be developed. As this case, priests aids to both federal campaign, finance violations to this state election crime, which is basically just conspiring to advantage or disadvantage a candidate, and that's like a crime on the books at the new york state crime and the scheme that detailed, both in the indictment that obviously, with more kind of color and detail in the statement. A fax is obviously about advantages in a candidate for president we'll trump. So the face of the new york state statute seems to be pretty clearly satisfied, and then there also is that there are references made to state tax offences, so I dont have.

any great insight into why there wasn't more detail provided, except maybe it gives. You know adversaries and viewers and readers the opportunity to pick apart something at a very early stage when you actually don't have any legal obligation to show all of your cards. So that's my best guess at why we have general references, but not specific, detailed descriptions of the underlying offences. Question for for other vehement coming. It today there was a lot of hand wringing about perceived weakness of this case. Some of it was in comparison to some of the other investigations into donald trump and the severity of say, subverting democracy, but setting that aside now that we ve seen all the specifics in this indictment we steed mistreatment of facts and the various documentation it was released today? How do you feel, generally speaking, about the strength or weakness of this case? I feel like it's pretty clear that they have established

new york missing in earlier falsification of business records, and then I also think we learned at least one additional thing from the statement of facts and the indictment which is they apparently do have some texts and now, exchanges, I think, between Michael, when and other people that suggest they wanted to delay having to make the payments until after the lecture and in the hope that they wouldn't ever have to make them and that some pretty persuasive ever and that they were doing all of this to influence election and that could go a considerable. One way to proving that they were falsify business records in order to conceal or commit some other crime. So I think they laid out a clear case for why this satisfied the thresholds to bring a prosecution. You know do

I wish that we were going to get a perfect case wrapped in a boat. oh that actually held trump accountable for all of the world's things he did to our democracy sure, but I think that the path to an attempted coup who, unlike insurrection, is paved with a bunch of other legal violations along the way and so holding someone accountable for some of There is thumbing the nose at the rule of law is, is a good thing and you know I'm not like super confident. This is gonna, result in a conviction or that everything is perfect. But again I think they kind of made their case that This fell squarely within the kinds of cases they would just clearly be bringing if this

it's done by someone not in the trump world kate. What did you think? Was there any surprises when you read the the documents and and heard brag at the press conference? So a couple of things in terms of the press conference? I actually thought he spoke pretty that bragged that he spoke pretty directly to the critics basically saying things like this case is trivial and doesn't compared to the kind of existential stakes of the special full investigation into january six. Then we may be too the degree of our logo and classified documents, but also the fulton county george investigation january six fold in county. These are about the integrity of our elections in democracy and those things just informer consequential than this, but I actually thought the we brag framed. This case was about in equal parts, financial, integrity and electoral integrity ready said we're the financial capital of the country. It's actually really in

And as a value that we be sure that people are filing accurate and trustworthy document, so that goes to kind of the robustness of our financial system is actually the whole scheme was about subverting democracy and the electoral system by trying to skew the outcome of a presidential election through this concealment, damaging information right. So in twenty fifteen we learned from the statement a fax David packer sits down with donald trump and packer, says about the national inquirer we're, gonna be your eyes and ears will help conceal damaging information. We will elevate damaging information about your adversaries, and so that's the beginning of this scheme and then you described at the outset. We have these specific instances of implementation of that scheme, so I do think brag is actually tying this to these broader democracy values they weren't may be evident on. The face of these allegations has become understood them before today, but actually really do seem to be present in this case. In addition to the other cases gridley, where the camp in finance violation, your referencing. So when

edwards tried to pay some hush money, so quiet and a fair one of the fences was narrow. This wasn't politics, I really my family to find out. It was gonna, be really bad. In this case, you have these tests that are basically like keep it after the election, is basically a smoking gun that says this was done for the election, so that takes care of that excuse for it. But there is, is you have so donald trump basically gets this income contribution made to silence stormy daniels, and that is an illegal contribution, but if Donald trump it's a paid for it out of the campaign, to quiet story, daniels that could be construed as an illegal use of campaign funds? Is it the case that there is no way in the united states of america to pay money while you're running for president is would you will have us believe- and I think,

what you need to do in order to do it right and make sure it's like very legal and very cool is you can only pay a certain amount and then you need to publicly disclose at which, like obviously kind of defeats, the purpose of hush money. And but you know, that's that's like one way to do it. I guess I mean I keep hearing this argument that these payments to love. It's point like shouldn't count as a contribution or expenditure under federal law, because then it would mean almost every expenditure candidate makes during the course of a campaign could be construed as a way to promote their candidacy and thus influence the election, whether it's buying new clothes or or settling a lawsuit as as you're running, because you don't want the public. So what would you guys say to that argument because I keep hearing it. You have anything to statements, facts just really kind of puts that to rest in producing really substantial evidence that everyone involved in this scheme that this indictment charges knew that these tapes

were being made in order to improve the electoral prospects of donald trump. That was the point So I you know, I think, in the abstract. One can make the arguments that there were other justifications, and presumably there you know will if this goes to trial, be evidence that translators, try to introduce that suggest. Alternate motives but the evidence that we ve seen enough. You know we ve just seen the indictment mistreatment of facts suggested. There was at least one can reason, and maybe only one reason that these payments were made and that was to help get donald trump elected president. We'll say like I would not put it passed trumps lawyers or like at least one two, three supreme court justices this flirt with the idea that actually, you have a first amendment right. it to use your money and like whatever way you want to elect a candidate of your choice, because, like that speech, it's all just hush money, and I guess, like I, wouldn't be surprised, is to see an argument in that vein, like floated somewhere in the case. I just really can't get over the head of an hour.

Why are going to donald trump and you like? I will work for you. I will be your eyes and ears I'll, suppress all these stories that could damage you because, again back to John Edwards, the national inquire broke the story of the affair with real hunter and the John Edwards had had a child with her. In this case, they were gobbling up stories to protect on which europe is like. Imagine if we had, the national enquirer, buying up the reverend Wright videos in two thousand and eight. While the point is, I think it'd be legally dubious. What a great advantage I I think they were either I'm glad in Heaven will be up shits creek, that's just so nice. I think we talked about this last time your on to discuss this case. But what do you think now how are sort of brags biggest challenges in getting a conviction here like what are the? What are the real obstacle in this case, and I think there will be some initial motion practice around- maybe malicious prosecution, vindictive prosecution where they attempt to have their indictment dismissed on that basis. I think that

very unlikely to be successful, and instead, I think what were likely to see is tat. to the credibility of some of the witnesses. No at any I'll that does happen in a questioning had ability of Michael Cohen or David packard, or- or you know, whoever the other witnesses end up being and- and so I think that that is going to be a big part of the case, but I think that a lot of it before that point is going to be about these threshold legal questions like. Is it even permissible to enhance this misdemeanor charge to a felony on the basis of a federal crime does federal campaign finance la pre empt the ability to enhance their misdemeanor charge on the basis of the new york state election law crime and in other countries, arguments, arms, I think those are still on the table, but you add to those kind of credibility, challenges to the likely witnesses that the prosecution is.

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his marilla go, I don't know address he raised the judge and he said he's a trump hating judge and raise the judges family and malign the family. I would trumpeting judge with the trumpet wife and a trumpeting family, so you know tradition if the judges don't usually like that kind of thing? Presumably, what do you expect to happen? What do you? What? What can a position? Does that put the court in as they try to deal with this unique defendant? I don't think a gag order is out of the quest and so judges. Sometimes, in cases will basically issue orders directing defendants to refrain from talking about particular topics: it's not routine, but it's definitely done roger stone was, you know, maybe the most recent and most famous risk, the end of a gag order, but he was post and social media about the judge presiding over his case engine of issuing an endowing down on a gag order, so I wouldn't be so

as you sort of saw in the hearing today, the days office, beginning already to raise some of that rhetoric by trump directed at brad, and others. So I'm not sure if based on just them, our logo remarks were going to see the day We must try to get back in front of the judge and say well, you didn't. We didn't ask for a gag order. They basically ass for protective order, essentially asked the judge to tell try and his team, they can't disclose the discovery materials are the days office is going to have to give them. There could be identifying information. There could be other reasons. The days office doesn't want trumpet sitting in social media, the contents of documents exchanged with the prosecution, but there was no request as I understand it forgets border. So we could see a request for one. and a gag order that was narrowly crafted to restrict his ability to talk about the judge in the proceedings. I think, would be perfectly permissible if you're gonna try more broadly to restrict the speech of a now declared presidential cannon

and I think people would raise obviously first amendment objections, but a narrow gag order. I think, is definitely in the realm of the possible. Well said about timing. They said that next court date for trump will be December. Fourth, quite a ways away, we talked about you know. Trump will certainly try to get the case thrown out. Are there other strategies he'll try to use to delay even beyond December fourth, or I saw that the prosecutors want to trial in january of twenty four, I believe and trump once the trial in spring of twenty twenty four. What are your thoughts on sort of the time I mean what they can do to delay this, I mean they're going to fight a bunch of motions. You know you add to different theories like a motion to dismiss the indictment trying to change venue, my gases are going to try to challenge illegal legal furies involving the case. They will probably try to

raise. Some questions are challenges to whatever nato discovery negotiations that they begin now and try to work through over these next few weeks. it's our minds, but also the fact that his next court appearance is an until december. This case has been frame amd as our people above the law, you know, is donald trump gonna be held to the law and it's already clearly he's being treated, differ lee- and we already kind of touched on this when we raise the possibility that it may be a problem that this case turns in part on an untested legal here. You know the fact that people are even raising questions about. That is a sign that this case is being treated differently. You know they're asking prosecution to effectively come within indictment that rests on a set of facts that courts have already held, in other cases, constitute a crime under this statute and that not the way like ordinary criminal cases are treated and nine

is telling the defendant. Like we'll see you back in eight months, you know in a lotta felony K says you have to check in with the court more regularly, and so, if you didn't have a mug shot again, so he is already getting a lot Indulgent says that are being made in the interests of trying to make this process be and appear as fair as it can be. has, of course like no one wants to live in a world where political foes are prosecuted just because their political foes, but the opposite of that world. Isn't that political opponents are above the law and can never be held to the law, and I think that the DA's office is like really trying to thread the needle, as are other offices and their struggling with how to say, look we're trying to do the right thing.

By like we also have to treat this case, like other criminal key says in some ways will do so defended or defend aunt? I think it so cool when tv lawyers they defend aunt making. Like I'm watch and law and order- and I guess I say defendant- I don't know that Has I am minnesota in or not a tv lawyer, but a pack ass layer, so sorry to disappoint kate? What are you defendant? Definitely defendant, just defend a team that I've ever heard defended like marilla, that guy from Philadelphia that represented trump during impeachment, he says defend and I would bet money on it. You know Joe tapioca, if yet no not joe dab yoga didn't we can call em joey tapioca, whereas I feel offensive on some level question I mean what is even offensive these days great doing this across this is this, is I think it is

We now have like a word watching some fox news just to see, what's going on over there like the chorus of right wing pundits and even like the Republicans now, basically just calling for some prosecutor somewhere to start indict democratic officials is growing louder and louder like. Is that something that you guys worry about? That could actually start happening here What oh yeah we're both nodding hard we worry about, and I don't think it's a reason that the manhattan d, you know should have hesitated here, but I do think it's a real concern. There are two things that give me some comfort that were not about to see, despite the calls for somebody to do it. You know some floodgates. Opening one is This is the manhattan ba, mrs manhattan, where former president trump conducted his business his campaign. You know this is an office, it has a clause nexus, a more than plausible and access to the events charge in this indictment summary,

and prosecutor in rural texas, trying to indict a former democratic president, remember of congress or or any one else? It just really hard to see even a threshold plausible case that could be made, and that doesn't mean that some elected day might not try to make it. But I do take some comfort actually in the constraining force of legal norms and legal culture. I dont think these things will it was, but I actually think elected DA's. They don't write their own charging documents like they have staffs that help them do this. things and I'm not sure. I think it would be a little bit challenging in most in o prosecutors offices to try to get your people to sit down, and right, an indictment charging arriving at a name, the aims of democratic officials. I'm not I'm not even sure who, on fox news as being singled out, although I'm sure I can guess but actually dont know that it's easy for pundits to call I actually think, sitting down in a prosecutor's office and trying to draft such a document. Even if you wanted to do it for political reasons, I'm not sure that you would get your team to do it because sort of people are stupid

sort of rule of law, norms in legal culture. Again, I dont think that'll save us Do you think that its at least a somewhat, to my mind, comforting constrained at least in terms of this becoming open seas, and on democrats by local prosecutors, ok, my little optimists boat. They can't you imagine like salmon veto, just leg, knocking bacco called one and like going out and making its citizens arrest of hunter by then, and they made me do it. No jesse waters is waiting outside Dian finds. I'm doctor, you're going to say spears were dumb questions. Why we still do courtroom sketches like a trump look like grinch that store moral argo here could get. We get a camera in there We did get some photos from the Rain meant by courtroom sketches are just kind of a thing, and everyone always looks really horrible there, given like a shade of green and their face, just looks kind of goblin ask, and it also here,

too, he was treated the same as everyone else goes through near courts. Why do you guys think that merrick garland in the d o J didn't bring this case. Like you know, shortly after Biden took office, I mean one theory honestly, is that the department of justice has limited resources and january sixth was actually had just happened and actually come into office and Is the d o j priority, and this feels far less consequential now locked, the o can walk and chew gum. At the same time they can investigate multiple things, but Imagine like that's. What's immediately before you as take over the department of justice Maybe you decide allocate resources that way. So that's one theory, I think you know some people addio my.

Afraid of their own shadows and are so committed to the idea of being institutionalists that they treat office holders as kind of coextensive ever synonymous with the office and to them. Prosecuting a former president is prosecuting like the presidency and they insisted in some ways on treating president tromp as if he was just like any other president and that I guess means treating him so he doesn't break the law. So I think that that is also probably part of it. I think a more sympathetic reconstruction as you know, as we were just kind of talking about earlier, these cases do sometimes take more time to develop additional facts. You know we talked about some of the additional facts that we learned from the statement of facts. I'm and other statements, and so it's possible that they are still being into some additional things related to, for example, january sex or the door to call or other things that might later. And down the road generate charges. So that's another profit

woody as well, although you know I have to say, I'm not really holding my breath for that. Well, the one that you didn't mention it seems like. Maybe it's not the most severe crime that trump committed, but it seems like to me at least the most opened in case is the documents case, and there was news in the last week that do j now has evidence that after the subpoena was issued, vet move the boxes out of marilla go and trump inspected. Personally, some of the boxes and tried that that do you guys think that's pretty that's a strong link. Is it really strikes me that I dunno how he wiggles out of that one. It seems really strong, yeah two things, one the fact that you have had a district court judge pierce attorney client privilege on the basis of the crime fraud exception, which is very.

rare and suggests to me just be a really really strong evidence is developing that there was one or multiple crimes being contemplated and planned between trumpet and his lawyers. That's, I think, significant also like. So this is the documents case, but also like this is as much about obstruction of justice. Right like the classified, events themselves are obviously part of the obstruction, but it is what appears to be the quite wilful refusal. return and concealment and moving etc of documents. The taking of the document is, to my mind, sort of them of the offences and the taking of the documents. It seems to me just on the facts. You sort of have him dead to write on those, but the rest of it seems really strong too. So I think that's relatively close to being charge if they're going to charge it. I don't think we're talking about we a long time at this point, so could be that we see in a matter of weeks or months, multiple other she was drop is just

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time limit on when they would be able to bring this case, and it was apparent from you know the things that they were saying and other things we ve learned in the last week, like the fact that vance sad that they were basically to well to stand down by sdn. Why, when that was still under the supervision of the term, administration and the vans office had also been bogged down in trying to get trumps tax returns. You know the case that, when all the way up to the supreme court, and so there are all sorts of reasons why it takes a while for some of these cases to proceed, but all of the cases also have different time constraints-

you know as far as statue of limitations and other kinds of considerations, and here again it seemed like the five year. Statute of limitations for the felony crimes was going to expire, based on some of the last acts that went into trying to conceal the falsification of these business records back in two thousand and eighteen. So that seemed to me to be like the best explanation for the timing of at least the new york case. Speaking of the I'm asking you see this kind of this argument that oh this is the weaker of the cases wouldn't have been better if we started with something like folding county or the documents case where the january six case in a way saying. Oh, I wish these prosecutors were a little bit more political and how they approached this, while at the same time worrying that this brag case appears to be political. How do you had you unpack that problem that sort of logical confusion? Confusion came in and I think that it sort of like I

heads, he trump wins tales. Everybody else loses right, like sort of logic like it's wrong that this sort of went first, because it political, but also be political to do the coordinating. I mean, I think, that its right for all these prosecutors to be independently, assessing the evidence in front of them considerations likely a mentioned of statutes of limitations and proceeding without giving any thought to the other investigations and how optimal sequencing might work. I, I am sure they are not explicitly coordinating about this. I doubt there even are at least I'm sure they're trying not to to put any real thought This I will say, though, I think in a subtle way, not as a matter of actual, nation, but I do think that it is possible that this has something of like a damn breaking up only in that. If you really are the first and you don't have some in our external pressure, like a statue mutations about to run, I can jane spending a lot of time, making sure the documents it you're in a file that will be the first indictment of a former president are absolutely perfect.

and I imagine that you know the bar- maybe a little bit lower. If it's going to be the second or third, and so you may be, if your cases ready- but you might take another week or two to really polish it- you might go ahead and announce it without that additional vetting. So I do think that on the margins, it might move things a little bit faster in the other guys it gets a great appetizer yeah. I think I agree. I think bragg did throw the first brick at stonewall. It's like you're, your first kid is eating organic food and going to bed on time, the second or third years like throw them in a cage or some water in the main courses coming I'm going with my yeah. That makes it look. He says, like he's, going to have a lot of court dates, but in between now and I are urgent We are doing now in november, he's going to be going back on the campaign trail. He could have one lawyer in new york being, like I'm sorry, I'm not available during that time. I'm on trial in fulton county DC. You guys got to work together at a packed dance card. That's going to make debates complicated

Can I just say one additional thing, please, okay, so during all of this donald trump Jr tweeted, a picture of the job in the cases child, and I just think it's worth pausing over the fact that, like in the last few years. We have seen republicans be very attuned to the possibility of protests, act, justices homes and There have also been real events of violence against judges and their families, in particular, judge solaces son was murdered. gunmen went to her house and the idea that trumped junior would do. This is extremely

appalling and I would think slash hope that, if anything would generate lake, more concern about protective orders or gag orders are like procedures to protect. Judges like it would be this not only to don junior treat the picture trump in his beach specifically raised the issue of the daughters. Oh, she worked for the Biden harris campaign brought her up talked about. The judge talked about the judge's. Wife said that bragg should be prosecuted. I mean that the speech was just like typical trump bullshit, and there was like nothing too exciting about it, but that of it's just like what the hell did. He just do, especially after the judge. Just warned him but this again like it is really scary, knowing again that this is something that has happened and the gunman who went to church salus had a on just a soda, my or and by putting pictures of the judges emily and then again bringing I family up in this speech like I,

concerned about what it seems like you know. They are and boulders people to do or test the limits of the judge has power here right. The judge can stop as in a number of ways if he is willing to go far enough. That's true but like as kate was saying, the standard for imposing a gig order is high. The judge said he didn't want to have to do so and- I worry that like this is a circumstance where wanting to treat this case differently, because it in as a former president and trying to err on the side of giving this defend into the benefit of every procedure and every doubt will make it harder for the judge to impose a gag order, even though I think

it is already showing signs that there would be very good reason to do so, at least in some capacity. Yet the concerts, the just going just add, as is what Donald trump junior tweeted was a bright bart story about the judges daughter who worked at a firm that worked for the Biden harris campaign. So, if he's treating news articles, do you get into very complicated sort of first amendment territory with a gag order. I so I don't know whether, like a news article in particular, would you know raise additional first amendment concerns in addition to whatever the concerns would be had donald trump junior. Just sad. You know the judges daughter work for a firm that work for the binding harris campaign. I dont know. If that add, any additional speech concerns there. But again the fact that it is now being repeated is bull within twenty four hours is just really concerning you're in for all of the kind of articulated concern about overhead.

By the day, or you know, novelty of legal theory like you're, not hearing broad cross party, in condemnation of attacks on the judge, attacks on bragg and his family righteous, rhetorical at this point, but obviously rag actually did receive threatening letter or in an envelope. So this isn't just rhetoric. People are taking action directed at the players in this prosecution and we're literally one day and in terms of the actual arraignment, so the stakes are very high whatever the judge could do you would imagine that there will be broad condemnation that kind of rhetoric, and so far I have not heard it. one day in and in one indictment in with a potentially many more to come, both of you thanks so much for for joining and I'm sure will be tough king, to the two of you and militia many times over the next year. Next, two years about doll, travel situations a reservoir alive and hopefully other stuff too big. For thanks for doing this to me, thanks guys

it's lippman and Kate shaw for joining us and we'll talk to in the thursday pot by everyone. The pod save america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy gardner Bernstein, producers are hailing use and olivia martinez, its mixed in edited by andrew chadwick kyle, when and charlotte Linda sound engineered the shop thanks to helsinki for irish works, sandy gerard anti tat ingesting how for production, support to our digital team, illogical, phoebe, bradford, Milo, came and Amelia monday, our episodes are up his videos at youtube, dot, com com, such pod, save america,. lifted gets once proudly zip ties on ski jackets everywhere now gone away. The cosette, why, because of epic day, pass

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