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security- camera plus twenty percent off your order with interactive monitoring that simply saved outcome. Such crooked there's no safe, like simply safe. I welcome the pod. Save America, I'm John forever andean cypher and today show fox lies, caused the network, three quarters of a billion dollars house republican settle. a wildly unpopular debt ceiling, ransom, Rhonda, santas lets a wave of homestake endorsement slipped through putting fingers and later strict scrutiny. Lippman stops by down the legal implications of the dominion settlement and talk about new supreme court developments in the fight to keep abortion, medication, legal but first

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let's get to the news. The media trial of the century ended before it began this week. As fox news paid dominion voting systems, seven hundred eighty seven point: five million dollars in a last minute settlement that denies lives like us, the satisfaction of six weeks in court where rupert murdoch Tucker karlsson, maria barter, romo and other fox bozos would finally be exposed, is lying drifters who treat their viewers like morons, but, alas, dominion gets the largest media settlement in history worth ten times the value of their company, and we get nothing. Squirming under oath no admissions of guilt now on europe. Allergies, just a statement from Fox that says they quote, acknowledge the court's rulings, finding certain claims about dominion to be false dan. Why did dominion and its lawyers robys of this joy to they hate content? Is our?

forget our hopes up as we do all the time. We never learned our lesson excited and we just have them crushed. That is what happened here. I mean It was probably naive on our part to choose is as our fighter in the battle for democracy, a voting software company owned by a private equity firms. Represented by major trial lawyers, to be the ones who are going to fight for this in some sort of erin Sorkin ask battle for the truth. We, of course they settled. Why would some facts at every incentive to settle, dominion. As you said, it was a company that was worth eighty million dollars a few years ago. A private equity firm has majority stake in the company,

it's been represented by lawyers who get a cut of the settlement. Why would they not take the largest settlement in media defamation, history right there without having to go through any risk of losing that at trial yeah I mean I also let myself get too hopeful about this one because way back when when it started, I was like, of course, they're gonna end up settling. Why would fox go to trial, and then you know, there's a lot of reporting like dominion doesn't want to settled him and he doesn't want to settle, but like look even if one of their goals, one of their big goals, dominions was, Do you know prevent fox news from doing more damage and help save democracy like their primary goal, is to make money. They are a business and

even though they had a very high chance of winning. It wasn't certain. It wasn't certain at all that they would get that much money, the more money they did and, like you suggested it, it probably would have taken years to go through the appeals process to get all this money or less or an apology from from them, based on, like just all the different they could have gone to. They probably would ended up at the supreme court and who knows what they would have done so you know they took. They took the money, which is again it's a business wedding at it now and let just before we get depressed about this. Because of this

We got to learn a lot of really fun, really important and quite embarrassing information about fox's personalities. Yes, they cannot take that count. We had that content. They cannot take it away from us. Yeah yeah, I mean look his fox's ratings suffered at all. No, but you know, there's there's been a couple of polls was a poll from last month. It found that, like twenty percent of fox viewers, trust the network less because of the revelations over the last several months That is a very small percentage, but it's something do you think this settlement will impact foxes, business, Will it at all impact foxes behaviour? It's gonna, be tough for their business. They're gonna make some real cuts. The five can become the four sorry, I would suggest you tell your weight, has corresponding you know you got lovett space and professional media time is not here just

songs and a stuff and is trying to bring some of the table. You can't just all be data for progress cry tabs, I got to you Do you have a eulogy for this trial? Tommy differ. Make one pair of campaign is selling viral oh, I know I'll bet. I participated in its every treated it repeatedly. It was just this This hurts their business for sure, but they're gonna get there some of this off in their taxes. There it's insurance may cover some of it, for the fox corporation cares around about four billion dollars in cash at any one time they make over a billion dollars a year in net revenue, so they can afford this. It's bad you much like the conversation about donald for getting indicted. No, ever a winner when they're paying eater million dollars the summer's terms of there behavior hard to say, I want this to happen again. The

We're gonna be more careful us only gonna stop texting about all of their crimes. I imagine that will be the case. Yeah maybe get some burger phones. You know I don't know, Maybe do you maybe do your crimes and persons don't take it's not a criminal conspiracy that is, and I think it I would put yourself in this position: they're not going to become fair and balanced they're, not going to you know, they're, not get rid of the conspiracy theories. Blowhard said, prime primetime in the media and they're not gonna. the propagandists or not- can become media for journalists in the daytime, like

I gotta say basically the same, but imagine a situation where Donald trump we are in october and november of two thousand twenty four and donald trump is pushing more conspiracy theories about the election. Fox is going to be this much more careful about that, because this cost them a almost a billion dollars they're facing another other facing more lawsuits that the the price tag of the of the lies around the election is going to be quite high for them, and their will may be just a wee bit of hesitancy before they do it again. Yeah I mean I think that there'll there'll be hesitancy around and potentially defaming a big corporation that could sue them. You know it's over if trump is pushing a big lie again, as opposed to targeting, dominion? Voting systems are smart, mattock or any that the voting systems they could just you know they could have pushed the big lie without specifically targeting dominion right. They could have just said plenty of questions. You know they could have erred the conspiracy theories and they could have like there's a whole

I mean donald trump. Does this all the time? You know what is thy? Oh, I would who knows people are saying that there's some there's some stuffed ballot somewhere and nato know and like that they're going to do all that and they're just going to be a little bit more careful about how they lie, because they don't want to actually defame specific corporation or specific people, because, let's not forget, and a few years ago they had to settle a case with the family of Seth, rich, the murdered Dnc staffer, who they slandered and claim that he was murdered because he leaked documents to wikileaks, which was obviously completely not true. Well, this is where this way the legal risk of being in the lying business has gone up and because of this settlement there will be more lawyers and more potential plaintiffs looking to bring suits, and so it's very possible. that a fact continues its business as it has been doing us any more expensive to do so? And that is not cost free. They are in a dying business every day,

more people literally yes, literally it'll be their audience, yes, demographically, but through a number, but they they make their money from carriage fees. Based on a number of people who have cable, the number people have cables coming down every day. And so they are already managing a very profitable but a decline in the last in that's gonna, get more and serve as more lawsuits companies. You know their whole bunch of people who just Watch the dominion liars get quite rich and they're good at liars can be out. Looking for plaintiffs do the same thing. This is what happen to big tobacco. Yes, and look we're going to talk about smart madigan, a minute which is in another defamation, lawsuit that fox faces, they're, also, potentially gonna be shareholder lawsuits and what happens with shareholder lawsuits is oftentimes the shit fox shareholders who might sue the company for this might demand some kind of management change.

no, and so you might gets there. There's been some reporting that they don't learn fox clearly doesn't want to admit that they're gonna get rid of people because of this law suit. But you could start seeing a few heads raw like. I do not need any the big stars, like maybe a said jerry, maybe even a tom. It really already. essentially fired Lou dobbs for His role, in a smart, matic conspiracy theories they ve already. in one way admitted some culpability there and will probably be looking to settle that loss it as well. I do wonder about other magda media outlets. Like oh n news max told the exact same lies about dominion. Dont have as much money as fox I could they gotta get sued, yeah. Absolutely they could get sued. They people maybe less like those who them because they had their pockets are less deep. It's only

at the time and energy for the attorneys. If the potential pay out is sufficient to cover the costs of the case, and that may not be the case with these middling third tier propagated networks, like oh end and news backs what I was open for more than anything was an outcome that required primetime fox host deliver on air apologies. I wanted like five minutes of groveling at the top of every hour. You know right before they go back to yelling about trans kids and immigrants that first five minutes. Prime time just begun an apology. That's clearly a fantasy that will and will not be coming. True. Do you think that would have had any effect whatsoever? beyond our own enjoyment, I dont want to diminish our unemployment as a value. Here, We heard that about that as you and I both everyone listening here. We we deserve that. The though I don't think it would have made a bit of difference because

we are these fantasies that foxes is, has caught like power over its viewers and it may be. The reverse is true because they did tell the truth one. and it was in twenty twenty. After the other. when they saw the Joe Biden, one arizona and it was a legitimate win It's a whole bunch of fox news. Viewers come around to the idea that Joe Biden was real gem, a president. No, they didn't change their mind. They the chain on a noose max her away and you go find someone who would tell them what they want to believe, and I think we underestimate the power of motivated reasoning in why people believe some of them things they believe it. It's not in some ways. Fox is just reflecting back what had to be worth want them to say, and so would it Fine, yes, would any amount embarrassment for Tucker Carlson. Be a net benefit for society? Yes, would it have change the calculus or end. Reverse the radicalization republican voters. I don't think so yeah I keep going back and forth on this one because You know, one thing we do know is that more than anything else, fox really didn't we

their audience exposed to the truth, and that's why they sat all that's why they refused to apologize like they clearly were afraid of what would happen if those audiences were exposed to the truth. But, as you point out, there probably not afraid of that, because they think that the audiences mines would change faith The audiences would just leave them for somewhere else. That's the fear. That's probably why they didn't want all the hosts on the stand, anyone who did on air. Apologies now because they think they're going to create a bunch of lives, but because those people he's gonna go to news max or oh aunt or somewhere else. Yet, though yeah having lived liberals like us and them have this fantasy that have just saw muckle blue murder, someone bought fox news and shut it down that the world would be saved in that all these people, maternal hannity and put on people.

news hour and that's not how it's gonna work right. It's just if they're going to go, find another source of confirmation bias in their cable news programming. Have you seen the study by David Brookman joshua kalla, and it was they did one last year in in twenty twenty two, where they paid fox viewers to watch cnn shortly before the twenty twenty election and they found large effects on attitudes and policy preferences about covert nineteen about evaluations of trump, and then I guess they just did one recently, and they found that one in seven americans consume over eight hours of partisan media per month, which look a lot more. I would have expected and most partisan media voters they found are not aligned, strong partisans and do not have especially strong prior attitudes.

In that they also rarely consume cross, cutting partisan content or meaningful quantities of national broadcast media. I bring us up because I do wonder if there's more give their with these audiences than we assume like centres. We assume that everyone who watches fox their mind is made up forever. They're gonna only go further right if they leave fox to land or news max, but I wonder if we are estimating some people who are more actual fox viewers who aren't as strong partisans? Look? What do you make of that? I have read the summary of the study. I haven't read the whole thing, obviously, for a lot of reasons. It's sixty pages but I have it in theirs mentioning points in there that are worth flag One is, we always say, foxes. Audiences, small right are getting at most four and a half million virus. At a time. And that's that is a fraction of it like that's on a number that is truly significant international in terms of the overall national

But if you, but their point is, is you have to look at the overall audience, not how many people are watching it in any given time how many people different people watch it over a period of days and that that number is actually quite large now some questions I have with that steady? Is that As I understood, the summary CNN is included in the partisan audience, I'd like to understood of innate or sand that the reason for that is that republicans have been told it cnn. As a partisan audience. We have a lot of debate about what life is like it cnn, under jeff soccer and arrested new leadership except our, but I think that is that there is a real it's that is even even apples to orangist. That's like apples, tat might not Something like this. There is very different things that are hard to compare the one thing, Think we also sort of underestimate with fox. Is the osmotic effect effective it because it is on its not just italy. Today at home, like if you go to america, it's on, if, when you oil changed in the waiting room. It's on the doctors off

it's on everywhere, in its being its also just the people who watch it are then talking about what they see on there, I I have seen other studies and that are older than this one that raise some questions about the number of persuadable of voters who were there there's a difference between persuadable voters and not strongly align partisans like there are people my dad about who is it who identified in the end, this may be adjusted in the and the other. Fifty nine pages of the study that I did not read by her are but, but you but you can call yourself a Democrat or an independent in vote with Republicans one hundred percent of the time.

and so you have to look down at their party registration or their self identified party identification, but there are actual voting habits in their beliefs to know if there are actually. If there are as many movable voters there is. We think in one thing we do know both from research and anecdotal data. Is that, like fox, does radicalize people I mean I don't know if you saw that horrific shooting of a ralph yarl, the the black teenager in Missouri, and they did an interview with the grandson of the eighty four year old guy who shot him and the grandson's like yeah, I mean I actually wasn't really surprised cause over last several years. My grandfather's always been conservative, but he's gone down. The fox away and rabbit whole he's become angrier, listening

in array. Stand your ground stuff like he has been going down that rather hole getting more radicalized over the years. Like wheat. We know it happens. You know. We know that they have the power to do that. If you have powerful media entities who see it as their business model nor political incentive to scare the living, shit out of a certain set of people about other sets of people, areas of a society that has easy access to weapons. Gonna end up with things like this happening all the time so fox still faces eight, two point: seven billion dollar lawsuit from smart matic, another voting technology company, whose lawyer released a statement right after the settlement that promised the company will expose more of fox's misconduct and quote hold them accountable for undermining demise chrissy you getting your hopes up again, are we we all got smart matic. The new media trial of the center can finally take down fox and save democracy. I think that statement, if you were to like hold it up to a mirror, play it backwards in a record player Would say, please call me about settlement terms. Is that

both foxes- responds ants. Mathematics, is to push factors like see we're going to weed out. Scared of this, where we know that this valley validates us we're not going to settle and matic is saying we're gonna make. This is painful, free with dominion. So suffer so be interesting to see how this one plays out taking place in new york instead of delaware, because delaware has a very specific corporate court system, their new yorker taking place in these in the for just a mare, that's potentially very badger report for fox, but also of its money because a much smaller business, then dominion, so there legitimate claims of amount of damages, if they were to go to court, are potentially smaller than dominions.

yeah, but we should again we should not, and we should not be expecting smart matic this company to save democracy. Adam Sarah wrote a great piece in the atlantic about why this was never going to save democracy and it it ended that just want to read the paragraph at the end. No lawsuit, no investigation, no state intervention can prevent people from believing falsehoods. They want to be true. The only real solution is to prevent those operating under such delusions or the politicians beholden to them from wielding power, and that is not the work of corporations like dominion. That is not the work of the courts. That, unfortunately, is the work of politics in a democracy. It is work that never ends whether it's bob mueller trump indictments. We can. None of this shit is going to save us, because you can expect the new york times to save us. The mainstream media, like we have to do the hard work of persuading people. You know- and I do think just to

and this media conversation you have written about this in all of your books, that the the real solution is to build. Progressive media misses why we started cricket right because, instead of just spending all our time trying to take fox down, you know like we, we have to go out there and actually persuade people, and we are competing with the right wing media ecosystem to make sure that more people aren't. You know, radicalized by those media outlets and simply trying to shut them down is not gonna work, we actually have to do the hard work of persuading people ourselves. The urgency of building up progressive media, I think, was brought even more to the forefront today with the news that feed news will shutting down which shows that the media economics and the changes in people's infringe consumption habits mean the days in which a objective not illogical, traditional press serve as a bulwark against this information like what comes from fox are over and then going to have you

the beat it by competing with it as a preserving someone's gonna do it, for you are less like what the debt ceiling since our house republic finally revealed their ransom demands. They will blow up the economy and was Joe Biden agrees to repeal most of the inflation reduction act, cancel student debt relief and cut everything from education and child care to vet These benefits and healthcare president said no deal during a speech of a union hall, maryland on Wednesday? Has a fairly dangerous magri problem comes with renewed the fault on the national debt? took two hundred thirty years to accumulate overall overall, unless we do it, they say is either going to do

well, unless I agree to all these wacko notions have wacko notions, there's so much awful shit in this plan. It's hard to know what to focus on just Kevin Mccarthy, really think that making it easier for rich people to cheat on their taxes and jack and at the cost of prescription drugs. As a political winner. What's going on here, Kevin Mccarthy is not trying to remain speaker of the house he's trying to remain leader of the republican cox. None of this is big picture. Politics is not about trying to persuade voters; it is about continuing to stick together the two under an eighteen votes. He needs to remain so, and that that is forcing his hand to do something. The public has an appetite for his voters, have an appetite for in the long history of dumb d you're a shit republicans have done. This is near the top of the list because, at least in previous debt killing battles in the obama era there was they were there.

therefore responding to like a fervour in the base like a real reaction to government right critically. In the wake of the bank, there I'll, send recovery act and the affordable care act there. There is like that spending is that the most generic airports sense possible, but government really was driving but have enforced through public motors? Do not give a shit about that. Nato is this amazing that that here, He wrote a few months ago about how and all they did open ended questions to ask people what they cared about. An This in the seat near time, sienna college balls, and I think it was two people out of fifteen hundred on its mentioned government spending as a top concern, if not about that, and so this is about keeping

his carcass, not his voters, but his caucus aligned with him I mean it is to the white house- has been, I think, doing a great job or glass. Twenty four forty eight hours on this really letting people know what this would mean, because the dance at the republicans and trying to do is are we just want to cut spending? We wanna, you know, get our deficit in order, and people are nationally supportive of that. But when you dig into what these cuts would mean, education veterans, healthcare, cancer, research, food safety, law enforcement, the repeal of the clean energy tax credits in the inflation reduction act could one hundred thousand clean energy jobs at risk, most of them in red states and you know, increase energy bills, take away food assistance for older people and then, of course the you know. The I r s thing, which has just I've always thought is the most ridiculous hobby horse

the republic inside. It's like its literally more iris enforcement to stop rich people from cheating on their taxes. Also foregoing through taxis and right now it people have been like because there's more, I r s, agents, fuel, funded and easier to do taxes. It's been like a better process for people. You repeal this. It's going to increase the deficit and let more rich people cheat on their taxes. This is what they're going to the metaphor. I just it's it's wild to me. It's wild! You think this passes. The house- probably it's I mean I guess can only lose for there's two goobers who said no, I'm never raising the debts healing ever. I guess, like George santos, as he's a no right now, but that he could be opened

coming around two years from his from the start of a new dress when he says, but then they like they live, interviewed some house freedom, carcass yeah, whose plus some of the more establishment republicans and they all seem supported, which makes me think I mean what like, will this exact three twenty page bill pass? I have no idea, but in general we know that Kevin Mccarthy will do many things, are cross any line or take on any policy, no matter how politically toxic to get the votes of Margaret taylor, green matt, gates, etc. And also just historically the right so the kok has, even once or in the Biden. States tend to vote with a leadership, particularly this early in the fight by two It would therefore be it would be a

I also want to hobble Kevin Mccarthy right away, and so you can see that if, if they're gonna break, they will break at the end that the beginning of the fight, if it does pass the house, do you think Biden in the senate Democrats should still hold the line on no negotiations over the dead selling cars obvious it is going to be. Credible pressure, not just from Republicans, but from that the media is gonna to say now. You know we're getting close to the, the debt sailing wise and by negotiating and were already getting that Joe mansion, you know of the president should sit down. He should negotiate so should they well the line and how hard that going to be. I think they should hold the line for as long as possible and put as much pressure on the republicans to do their job. Now. Everyone needs to be looking for a way out of the situation that, and

something other than default, and it's very possible biogas plants good behinds hand will be forced by some. I can already see imagine light your mission cares and cinema mitt romney or all the sudden having lunch and now there is gang of some kind getting together trying to come up with some sort of plan, if those things may happen, but Biden should not should do what it can do doing. What he's been doing put as much hold his ground. He is certainly correct. He is politically correct. force their hand. Certainly don't do anything until the republicans. Let's see they can actually passed this thing, but do not and do not you with the problem here is,

to begin negotiations, is to accept the faulty premise of the argument that the debt ceiling is something you should negotiate on. So I think baiji continue to hold the ground. I dunno, if you've heard, but the the bipartisan problem solvers caucus is trying to save the day here. They are proposing a plan that would lift the debt ceiling in exchange for an independent commission. We love an independent mission that would come up with a plan to reduce the debt and deficit and that that and would just be guaranteed a vote in congress. Nothing more! Do you think this is a feasible solution. Do you see any other way out? We just fucked, what's going on ah likely fucked- and I am deeply deeply worried about this, because previous debt ceiling battles have come have ended because the republicans were responsive to the massive amounts of

pressure being put on them. That is not a game. Mccarthy is playing, he is only responsive to his carcass and that it's very different in that his caucus is my. This is one of the dangerous consequences of gerrymandering. Is that the vast majority of these people, these republicans, have much greater fear of a primary than a general election, so they're from their political point of view. Please put aside the idea that they might care about the country or the economy. Their own personal point of view, voting to if the debt ceiling is more dangerous than crash in the economy and that's a bad place to be If the end result was a fake commission, they got one vote in congress and they come. Stayed on track. great job. Josh got guy timer, I'm for it like who cares as long as there's no teeth roll? That's why I'm so I mean I, I keep looking at the planks as like. What's the what's the catch here, you know, and it seems like a

eight outcome if we could get there and I'm wondering if I'm the Biden white house, How long until I try to endorse that plan, probably right at the end yeah, but if there's a look, if there's a bunch of republicans in the house who are the problem, solvers caucus who will actually get behind that plan now, I do mccarthy still might decide not to bring it to a vote. A discharge petition at that point towards the end will probably take too long. So I don't I dunno how that works. Isn't it I mean just to put some perspective here. In the third week of April, right now and goldman Sachs estimated that the middle of june is when extraordinary measures will run out so does also several congressional recesses in the middle of that. So there is some work to do the danger of the problem. Solvers carcass solution- is that it's coming out here,

This is the kind of things you want to come out in the last minute, whenever ones desperately looking for a face sitting exit, but now that it's out here now there was no say no to when they, then they can't back off so that we will need a another different, hopefully, toothless, skate escape hatch at the end. a toothless escape hatch, reluctant for if the in settlement, the dead ceiling. Shenanigans. Have you down? One thing that sure to bring a smile to your face is the continued trials and tribulations is of little ronnie pudding fingers. So too, he d had a big day planned on capital held this week, where he spoke to dozens of republican house members hoping to win some support for his now, yet announced, but already failing presidential campaign. Instead, he picked up a one indorsement one house endorsement. The person was his former secretary of state in florida, our host republican from florida, and he lay If this count it's thursday morning, who knows by the time you hear, this could be more lost. Seven house members to trumped from the floor delegation

including one yahoo, who literally walked out of a meeting with dissenters and announce that endorsing trump This morning you asked another one. This guy currently represents the district that dissent as used to represent in congress lost that guy to, why is dissent, is getting his ass handed to him by a twice impeach criminal defendant who lost the last three elections for the republican party. Who I like to read you a quote from someone in two scientists orbit to within was politically this morning I love the orbit growth. Yes, he doesn't like talking to people and it showing seems like a tough line or seems like you might have take the wrong business. Epic I mean it is. Early and there is still going to be a place for one person, not name trump. To make a real go. Ask us. Tromp is incredibly

And everyone is assumed that I was gonna to be us status. The first few months of this campaign have offered Well, I would say warning signs that he doesn't have what it takes to play, roll and that's worrisome. If you don't want trump to be the nominee, because the rest of the people running definitely don't have it so absent a better canada like there is and was a playbook today. that said somewhere somewhere. I read this sorry sort was like to say this is stumbles given opening to Christie. That's really does it When you say we sober dissenters. Stumbles. Are you talking about his press conference where he contain his attack on disney by threatening disneyworld. Can we play a clip of that now? People are like well there's. What should we do with this land? You know maybe maybe have another, maybe create a state park, maybe

try to do more amusement parks. Someone even said like. Maybe you need another state prison who do you think that threatening put a state prison or a competitive, amusement park. Next to your states biggest employer. The smart move was actually after listening to that clipped. Take back what I said about that quote from the person the orbit, which is of my voice, sounded like that. I wouldn't like talking to people either like it pretty every that's. A pretty greater. Every time is the first time no matter how many times you here, you are shocked to hear it again address I dont know what he's doing there is just he is wreaking of desperation. That was a it the way here. handled the disney thing suggests he doesn't really understand what his rise was in the first place. It it didn't you

I plan going into just held an angry press conference that where he was like pretending to be angry, but not really without any real solutions that seemed real. If he is, the idea was that he was trump without the care Said he was a smarter, more effective version of sharp and it turns out that he is none of those thus far the scam you if it not smart or not more effective, wait. We gotta have one more clip, because I just this, this is my favorite. Because the woke represents a war on truth, we have no other recourse, but to wage a war on woke. We fight the world in the schools. We fight the woke in the legislature. We fight awoke in the corporations. We will never ever surrender to the woke mob. Florida is where war goes to die mean. Doesn't he doesn't for convention speech right? There remember were turned me away, republican primary when not Joe Biden. Now president, it states that had that quip about

really giuliani that everything he said was a noun of urban nine eleven nets. That's that's like dissenters and woke he's. Just fuckin woke mad lips. Now he has a heat like us and he has a very simplistic and understanding of his own political strengths and his own political rice, and it is not just saying, walk over and over again and he is diverted from that and I have to say it and we're not making russia's. I know nothing, but if it were to come out in the next two weeks it he was deciding against running. I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah like I. I also think I probably come down on the side that it's too early because unama, huge rhonda santa's fan daddy. You have sent for her ass, the abbot, pushing him. No, I still think it's a little early just because they give out there's like a million lifetimes and a million a billion new cycles between now- and I are- this- is also like we are focusing on the national media narrative. We don't know, what's going

an ilo. We do know that even jellicoe than iowa, like aren't thrilled about donald trump down from to win the ilo carcass last time. You could imagine a path for dissent is where he. He wins over evangelicals plus the colleague educated at in iowa. That's enough to propel him to the to win the iowa caucuses. New Hampshire is a much better state for dissenters, because colleges have heavily college educated there. He does better with college educated republicans, then it sets him up better for south carolina. So you could imagine this like I don't know all the stuff he's trying to do, go harder, it disney the endorsements. Are you can't talk to people's trying to mingle? More to me, like the only thing that matters is how he handles donald trump, because Donald trump is just the elephant or he's the only thing in the republican and party raise the biggest thing in their public and party and the idea that dissenters is not going to take him are not going to make his electricity argument about donald trump in an explicit way

All these like oblique comments about elect ability or trumps, indict manner. To be subtle here and there and, like again, I get that dissenters can't piss off a lot of these voters who love donald trump, but I don't even think he's trying to make a case against Brenda now he's out in the race, so I think we're getting also at that we is likely to turn out to. If you, if he loses switches seems like me, most likely scenario is where they will probably always must like this narrow trumpets, a foreigner. But this decision to go to the way his announcement until after his momentum, it passed simplicity, off of war and being a fatal error. Many just take a bomb reference. That's right when you- and I was here- is very familiar with, but he announced his exploratory committee, essentially seventeen days after he made his final decision. I mean I had been on the key. I my he hired me

that campaign, and I was one of the earlier groups of people hired you only. You were coming from a assumed office ten days before that that Enough because he knew and we as a team knew that we had momentum. There were donors who wanted to be for obama. Where thousands tens of thousands of people all over the country who wanted to go work for obama who wanted to volunteer for him and he we had to give them a place to go to santa had that in november. He has a lot less of that now and that might be a mistake, and could he change it? Maybe, but it is very hard to get the stink of being. a loser off of you, especially if your argument is that you're, a winner and he and trump is trump seems to have done a pretty good job of that. Well, Donald trump is one right and he is he donald trump has a lot of skills as a

stand or other manipulator offer public and political sentiment and republican media that don't run assent is currently does not. You are when we come back dan talks, too strict scrutiny easily lippman about the latest supreme court developments and the dominion settlement. The show was sponsored by better help. What's wrong, Then you tell your twenty year old self that you wish you'd known about yourself then, and why would I tell me at twenty, like I've said this? It stretch gotta stretch strategy because you not allowed and everything's everything's hurtin these days to enable them now should wish I'd pay more attention to it? enjoy sitting in a chair for two hours than not thinking about it. You tell yourself gets worse. Therapy is all about

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urge to how Weiler a star ambassador, whose now taking back seat to cates rise in the global political arena? The diplomat now streaming on netflix yesterday supreme court once again did something confusing chaotic and potential evil. here to tell us more about the case. Is our resident legal expert and co host for scrutiny. We lament the welcome back to the pod thanks for having me Ok, so help us understand what's happening here. So yesterday your favorite, just samuel lido issued in, extension of a previous stay. He had issued extending the stay on, the court ordered ban on the abortion drug mister preston until eleven fifty nine on friday

how would you help us understand this, but just let's begin with, where is that case right now in terms of how its progressing and access to the drug in this country? So right now because of all of the stairs flash extended stay is never pristine remains legal and can be prescribed and distributed. According to you know the by the administrations current guidelines, but that could all end depending what the supreme court does ito after its decks deadline, which is friday at midnight. So, basically, what happened is you know the district judge said. Mister Preston is on authorize drug in no one, ten distribute it, and then the court of appeal said well. Maybe it's not technically an unauthorized drug, but they can't distributed in the way they currently have ban. And basically, you need to relabel all the job, so no one's gonna be able to access this drug for like at least several months, while the FDA figure it out, and now the supreme court is figuring out what they are going to do so, it's kind of technically in the supreme court

while there is still litigation ongoing in the court of appeals. Is it extension like this unusual. This seems like it should be ready, ease, the decision for the court since you guys are sentenced for scrutiny. Everything I've read is that the legal reasoning behind the original rules? Why is something my daughter recall, cuban annesley takeover public? What is happening here yet so it's unusual to have to extend and administrative stay that had an initial deadline. That partial, because most of the justices dont place time myths on their administrative stays so that its, this unusual, but this particular case in oh. It should take two seconds to real eyes. This is all who bananas or just like straight out banana? Is you know whatever you want to call it and say? Of course you know this. Lower court ruling should be stated in its entirety, but what is happening is it? Oh, these justices don't much care for the law when it gets in the way of ito forcing women to undergo childbirth thou. When they don't want,

And so I think you know you probably have some of the justices thinking you know. Can I put lipstick on this to make it a little bit more palatable, while still restricting access to medication abortion and is probably something nations going on with justice is wanting to get more justices on board. You know and either direction, and so they couldn't work it out before wednesday, and it's just it's so ridiculous, half of all that it is taking them more than two seconds to just say this entire thing made us all dumber, while we had to engage with it just for a little. What are the court's options here and how? How could this potentially lay out? So there are a bunch of different options. You know. One thing that they could do is just stay, that district court ruling in its entirety. That would prevent the district court various risks:

chance on if a pristine, including the court of appeals in a take on the restrictions from going into effect at any point in the litigation before the litigation ultimate if he reaches the supreme court, which usually takes several years, and so that's one option. Another option is they say: well we'll stay this, but we're going to put this case on our calendar. You know, in order for us to hear arguments and decide what to do another. Option. Is they don't stay the court of appeals or district court ruling and they add the case to their calendar, so they reserve the possibility that they might actually put it on pause, but they let it go into effect in the interim and then another If you know they, let either the district court or the court of appeals ruling into effect, and they just don't really do anything than that, and you know those are just

of the options, but there's a lot of wiggle rome as far as whether they let either of the rulings go into effect, as well as whether they add this case to their calendar and therefore preserve the possibility that they would change. You know their initial actions sometime in the next few months. If they were to allow it to go to the last option you said were allowed to go. place in not added to the counter or we had a point of no recourse. Then no, We are at a point of no recourse, at least until you know the case finishes up in the district court. Court of appeals, but that again usually takes years and so In that event, we would be kind of a point of no recourse in the sense that there would be a bunch of additional restrictions under four per that suddenly to effect it would be much more limited. Access for the drug on which there is a possibility could be marketed at all for some period of time, and that would all be I hang out while the case kind of finishes its way through the courts. Do you have any matter from

will ask you, but you have a censor, a prediction of where you think this is going based on how your clothes washing of the quarter over the years- and you know I have extremely as well of this court, and I honestly still think the most likely action is based stay. The lower court's ruling. In its end, I already and while baby adding the case to their argument, calendar or not, but you know I. I have, however, a pretty low degree of confidence in that prediction, even though I think it's the most likely outcome and the reason you think it's almost like vacuum is: is that because, generally the corporal try to avoid chaos while waiting for this, because it is craig tremendous chaos in the market place and people's health care decisions, etc? Is that right

It's a combination of reasons you no one is. I think there are some number of justices who don't like the extent of chaos that either the district court or court of appeals ruling would you know inflict on the country. I think also that the un wine legal claims are so calling Lee bad that you know you can just poke holes. Then and make fun of them. You know for endless I am very nose, and then also some sense that I think some of the justices who care about preserve in their own authority- have a sense that you know people are really ray. Into to the dobbs ruling and the consequences that that has had on people's lives. You know you see the result in the wisconsin supreme court election. You saw the results in the mid terms and so I think there is some hesitation about basically going you know full speed ahead. Add on judges effectively ordering nationwide abortion bans out of some concern that maybe that

finally be the thing that places people off enough to do something about the federal courts and that might cause you know: Brett kavanaugh, the chief justice to say like where we need to sort of string down, pivoting to thee the settlement regionally earlier this week in the fox dominion case, last anyone I spoke on the show I feel guilty about this, but I asked you to pretend to be doubled from lawyer. I will now I ask you to be the morass liar for this time around that of guilt, but as are used, eyes that settlement reach. What your reaction to how that had, I can explain itself out another surprise that it settled and in most cases settle on some level. It was a little surprising that it settled this late in the game just because a bunch of really unhappy information had already come out at this point, and so it's not like settling avoided. All of the embarrass and emails and text messages coming out in which it was clear that fox executives knew that these were lies

handed did avoid probably pretty embarrassing cross examinations. Were you confront, say you know the murdoch's with these emails and tax and ask them why they allowed this to go on as well as what was likely to be a pretty growing? Try all, and you know you also avoid possibility of punitive damages. So it's not that surprising in. I think other side, you know domain, and their interest was always kind of recovering the harm done to them, and that is a hard and that can be quantified in money, and so the incentives on kind of both sides are really to settles it. One. That's uprising little bit surprising that there was that amount of brings brinkmanship and delay that led to the subtle. Happening really. Last minute. Will this settlement you think, have any impact on how fox operates as a media entity? I mean we'll signs point to know right like they are not really covering this. You know their initial kind of statement about the settlement is. This confirms our high standards of journalistic,

So it's not like they really took the path. Oh now we need to tell the truth. So you know it's a little bit on. Clear I mean on some level. Obviously this has to affect their financial calculus about what the most rational business model is for them. You know they obviously concluded that it was in their interests to have a business model yoke, basically facilitating these lies, and that would keep their view. worship. On the other hand, they now have some costs right that they have to incur when they engage in these kinds of lies that they think will secure and preserve their. yours. So it's a little bit difficult to know any. Maybe they try to live better and a little bit less frequently going forward, but at least initially it doesn't seem like this is going to cause any sort of major changes

you think. They'll stop texting each other to just admit: they're they're meeting the actual malice threshold set by the supreme court. There will be company wide emails and how do you think no messages but yeah fewer emails, less text messages and the like? Do you think they journeys will be more empowered to at least start raise. Some concerns that the carlson's of the world you know again, maybe, but only in the sense that fox will have to decide. Much there willing to pay in order to keep their viewers and grow their audience. So this is really just Assessing them a financial penalty for lie gang and if this is their business model than they will justice, I like how much of the wise words And this is this could get more expensive crack as they are also facing another lawsuit, this one, but two point: seven billion dollars from smart matic, another vote, a company and I believe, there's a

full of shareholder lawsuits as well, who are with the company, because if the company has lost value because of this, because the cause of this irresponsible behavior on that part, is that correct? Yes, that's right, although I also saw that they have concluded that they can basically write off the settlement for tax purposes, and so it's not like they are just going to have to pay this. AL from their net profits. You know: we've had a number of they're all they're. All they could I mean you can speak is better. I can but they're they're, not all of the sort of the same ilk legally, but there has. There has been a number of cases over the recent years. That have gone. Add many entities or media personalities who are spreading conspiracy theories with foxes I've had to settle a case with south richest family a few years ago, the dnc slot staffer, who they falsely accused of leaking documents to wikipedia There is the Alex Jones you know, has over a billion dollars in them is he asked to pay? Is this specific?

so what's happening here or is there any? Do you see any sort of change in environments, legal environment or the legal risk profile for media entities of personalities who push these lies or push this information as part of their business plan. Ino again, I dont really, see any of these cases as really altering the legal standards just because it was clear what these companies were doing. We're law eyes and any person with any remote connection to reality would understand that we're lies, so they were knowingly lying or at least acting with reckless disregard for the truth, I think, to the extent there are cheap just as there are likely to be changes. You know the kind of cut in the opposite direction as far as like the political, ideological violence of the entities being sued and who is doing this in which it is, you know you might have, but they more conservative, leaning plaintiffs. You know attacking

whose organizations for criticising or making statements about conservative republican leaning figures and in those lawsuits seeking to change the legal standard another represented by new york times for the sole event that requires plaintiff to show that the Companies were acting with actual malice that is like intentionally lying. They knew. They were lying and so with possible that we will see some additional movement on that front. With these plaintiffs trying to encourage you, no more judges to speak out against new ties were to solve in and make it easier to criticise or make it easier to sue entities that are criticising public officials, You know and clarence thomas has already signalled you want to revisit that standard. You know with the additional negative media coverage of him, No, he might be additionally motivate. You note. I visited us new york times. Richer sallow then say receives like you.

Well, he would probably recuse herself from that case, because we know the clarence thomas holds his independence in highest regard. Would never rule on a case in which he could possibly have a stake in it is that right, just like fox, has the highest standards of journalistic integrity. Clarence Thomas has the highest standards of ethical integrity and he definitely would not participate in any case in which he or his wife, I have any potential to limit. Thank you so much for joining us and once again helping to explain all the crazy and bad things happening in our in the supreme court dates having a pod. America is brought you by rocket money. Do you know how much you're subscriptions really cost millions What have you been? What have you been subscribing to most americans? Don't think they spend around eighty dollars a month on subscriptions nope actual totals closer to two hundred dollars cost more than anything. If you don't know exactly how much you're spending every month, you need rocket money. Raga money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscribe,

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before we go like many media organisations, we had all kinds of plans for the trial of the century that never actually happened. and we got you know we had backs fisher. He was, he was gonna fuck the trial and contribute. and we had all these plans and, of course it all fell apart. One of the funniest plans we had, which was really a plan: r r fearless procedure producer. Eighty gardener, bird seed, who's here with me now hi Andy h on, and he took it upon herself and yeah to to make some puppets yeah and made sock puppets to make sock puppets of a fox personalities because, of course,

We want to be able to see the trial, there's no cameras in the courtroom and they weren't gonna. Let us, ah, they weren't letting any reporters use. The audio from the trial correct, so what we were going to do is use Andy's puppets to to save, tax and testimony. Yet so we can read back the testimony and reenact tucker stand or whoever. So I figured waste we kind of have to show you all the puppets. I really this is an audio format, but this is another plugged to subscribe to the pod, save america, you too, oh yeah. I go to the user. Gotta go to youtube right now and you can see the puppets. Andy show us show us what you just what you made her ok, so I made three puppet and the first one I made when it put the sun milo stand for those of you watching on the youtube? This is a picture of tucker and I was gang how to make a tucker karlsson sock puppet and

have to always go with their most obvious feature right. So here we go and if the camera so Tucker's at feature to me, was his eyebrows. So we gotta get there and then he always where, as you know, the gingham shirt and luckily my kids had graph paper from math. So I use that, for this is a craft podcast now and my husband. Let me use the end of his tie to make a tiny tie for tucker. If you look at If you want to do a d, I why Tucker karlsson sought out on you gonna wanna, take inspiration from Andy's so anyway. Everyone just has to imagine what it would have been like to have him falling apart on the stand had you had you thought through the voice part where you get into the voice. Now Is there someone who can do great replacement theory through that, though sock puppet ha? I think I think olivia was with

practicing her murdoch accident. We had big plans guys we have such great comedic friends here at crooked that we're try, but sadly no settlement or cozy the other two today, ok, so the next one I did was. rupert and, as I'm sure you can imagine his greatest you, no physical attribute the glasses. And so the wrinkled. So I made this subtle guy and enough. You can see him quite right. its cotton for his hair, and we use a pipe cleaner to make his classes. This is just an incredible amount of effort. Thank you! So much! Oh! Oh! Oh I'm not like deep into politico! I'm doing this.

A little my kids real self start arrives, had even like we made. It is known and asked me to just send a picture to the slack here than pumping click. What I'm doing I got the glue than others. I think this matter, one is to mobilise this. My masterpiece worked up to this. One says: maria barter ammo and initially I thought maria's big quality link it. A physical attribute that I needed to go with was her hair but ass. I looked at this picture longer. I really it's the smoky. I cannot agree. Smokey I so this is maria would about. Sweater too, was an american girl sweater that I just took from an old box from back in the day when my kids liked me

girl dolls, and here we even use some fake eyelashes to get this one going. So this is amazing. I mean I do hope that the small matic trial does not set. because we may still be able to use these anyhow cash workable questions Did you have prior to this, and abiding interest in poetry Why love I love my betsy doesn't get me in the great map. A caper is one of the best movies of all time, in my opinion, so I have. I do love puppets, but I had actually like really I like crafting, unlike my kids, do a lotta crafting so like this. We had our most of this stuff already hand, but I had never actually like sat down and made a sock pup ozone easier for

sakharov sally, I mean they're, not great, are like don't. Are there were great unsold kid you can you swear to me under oath that you do not have a john john run before me said. If I may, that names they you either. I like well. No, I do not. I do not have any sort of way. John John and Tommy the lesson we need every day there are mahler sock puppet from twenty seven, but if only if only andy, thank you for those puppets Thank you too kind. You too soft puppet, rupert murdoch. Sock puppet maria by roma, sought puppet tucker karlsson for joining us. Thank you totally a lemon from strict scrutiny. Everyone have a fantastic weekend. Andy enjoy the soft puppets alone, and I will

next week by everyone. Pod save america is a crooked media production be executive. Producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is in Gardener Bernstein are produced or hailing use and olivia martinez, its mixed in edited by andrew chadwick second in charlotte, Linda sound, engineered the shop thanks to Hayley keefer for schwartz sandy gerard anti tat ingesting how for production support to our digital team, illogical, phoebe, bradford. My look him. In a million monday, our episodes are up as videos at you to dot com, such pod, save america. I.