Type. I'm John forever covers two pod, save america and I'm cynical proclaimed the vice president of politics, the crooked media. We haven't relaxed in five years, and neither should you because the important work political and civic engagement doesn't just happen every two years I mean they should relax a little bit, though right like on weekends. That is none of my business John. I haven't slept since two thousand and sixteen, but I do know, about save america's no off hears programme is here to help you say, engaged threw out twenty twenty three wait. You haven't slept at all right now you can donate to our know off years, fun and sign up to stay in the loop on what's happening and how you can get involved via remote and in person, volunteer opportunities, targeted actions and more just had to save america dot com to get started in Geneva. I don't I'll take a week, often palm springs or something

the welcome to parts of america, I'm John favour. I'm dan pfeiffer on today's show Democrats will have fifty one senate seats after Raphael. Warnock wins the final election of the two thousand and twenty two midterms donald trump racks up more losses and legal troubles and strict scrutiny. Kate Shaw joins us to break down to major cases heard by the supreme court this week on gay rights and democracy, but first crooked, coffees, bestselling, coffee accessory is back and stock. The called brewer helps make cold brew. Coffee in and affordable denton? What's so funny and every orders supports register her an organization.

working to register millions of women to vote had to crooked dot com, slash coffee to grab yours before they sell out again, I know this: is you want to get some some cold brewers for your for your family for christmas day and that's on your christmas list- I it it absolutely- is on the christmas list. I am a cricket, coffee, subscriber. We love it in our house, it's great or fantastic. That's great, to hear that's good, to hear alright, let's get to the news. It's a good news day here, it's great newsday, brittany, grinders coming home from russia. That was great news. The house just passed a bill that will protect. Insects and interracial marriage and georgia senator ruffian warnock this week, one his fifth election, in two years, defeating Republican, her the walker in a run off by nearly three points. Fifty one to forty eight percent, which means Democrats will not only hold but increase there.

and a majority by one seat, an incredible accomplishment in a mid term where most voters disapproved of the president and the state of the economy after the race was called Senator warnock delivered one of the best victories beaches. I've heard in a long time. Here is a clip and, after a hard fought care or say campaigns It is my honour to utter the for most powerful words ever spoken in a democracy. The people have spoken of georgia

an example of a new generation of its history, of its pain in his promise of the brutality of the possibility But because this is america, because we always have a path to make our country greater against against unspeakable odds, here we stand together. Thank you, georgia. What do you think in how did warner pull this off for the fifth time in two years for general elections, one primary. I mean here's what I hope more nathan us that. and gets a vacation. I know he has been running for office for forestry gears face it, the voters, other time, brutal attacks,

It's just. I hope he has a nice relaxing holiday. This is a very interesting results, because it's. What was expected on paper is why most the pandit sides, with the poles predicted the poles, were dare I say, correct again- are correct. Again, even more correct. I think I was the poles really EL the run off, but then it's you take us back- and you say a Democrat, one a senate seat in georgia. In the first year of a president of his party's mid term, when inflation is high, gas prices are high and sentiments about the economy are down. That's it amazing feat, that's an absolutely amazing feat at says a lot about ruffian warnock agenda will talk about, says a lot about the state of morocco.

politics is a lot about the mistakes the republicans made, but he did it by building a coalition that included strong turn out from democratic voters. The egg coalition that modeled the post trump democratic coalition with ankara we strong results in the suburbs and he did it by persuading a decent number of republicans and republican leaning independents, who may have preferred republicans to be in charge of congress, but did not think that herschel walker was a person for that job. Yet so NBC news did a story on how warnock one where they interviewed his campaign manager and his deputy campaign manager and the deputy campaign manager said that we did. We did this by creating a permission structure for soft republican swing, voters and independents to support reverend warnock was key to our strategy and it was why we highlighted things like working with ted cruz or standing up for peanut farmers. We asked her about the

his name when he was on the pod a month ago and his campaign manager said there could have been other campaign operatives or another campaign that could have said. Okay, herschel walker has all this baggage, so we're just going to run to the left and just try to turn out as many of our voters and just let republicans eat their own. We didn't do that either. That was interesting because the two people they helped run the campaign and devise the strategy were very specific and crediting the victory to making sure that's reverend warnock in their campaign, appealed to the broadest possible coalition and sure enough. That's what they did. They go out of sort of republican, leaning, voters, voters who, in other races in the past and in this cycle, voted for republicans for other statewide offices and yet decided to vote for Raphael warnock for Senate. I mean it's a it's incredibly impressive and their strategies

dated by the math of the state. You absolutely need that's the only way you can win. That's how Biden one twenty twenty. It is john ass, often raphia we're not one in twenty twenty one. I guess when they want to run off, and it's the only truly available in its What is notable about it- and this goes to- I think what is a replicable strategy for democrats running I propose states going forward. Is that warnock was able to appeal to moderate republicans compromising his principles. He didn't adopts mushy middle centralism or performative attacks on democrats. Looking for ways to show himself to be an opponent of president Biden, he did it by being broadly appealing suggesting that he was willing to work with people. He disagreed with without changing his views and did it in a in a way that was very often

dick to himself into the state and its a real like this is all this seems very basic, but not enough people do. This. and he did it incredibly well well. I remember you and I, after the obama Yes, aigner view were sitting around. It was the night of the debate between walker and warnock, and we didn't watch the debate because we had done the do, but we were looking online at the because we do. The interview is so funny. We had done some work that day and we were out yeah. Look, it doesn't usually happen. Usually were just we were at a university or at a book party for our friend, cody keenan as well. That's right, yeah, yes, but we were watching the twitter reaction for the debate, because I consider that you and I just where had a hard day's work. We sat down weirder drink at the bar and then we started looking at our to athens, but there is all online eggs that warnock didn't hit walker harder. During the debate that even attack more than

they missed all these opportunities he should have been more of a fighter is laying the whole thing slip away layer in the and pain. There was some eggs that he didn't spend enough time talking about abortion or running adds about abortion, even though he said clearly he's broke ways and would have voted to codify row if democratic at the house back- and it just turns out that all of that eggs was wrong and warnock and his campaign were right. There strategy was correct, there is one thing that is true and one ask him. He was clearly very aware of, and navigated for carefully is it. There are strategies available to white male candidates are not available to kenneth of color or women. Candidates at the end. This is something that Obama had to deal with and all of his races are going to say. We doubt this in two thousand and eight. The attacks are interpreted by the press and the electorate differently when they come from, women are candidates of color

so in it when people say we're. Why can he be liked him ryan, when TIM ryan is just flailing? Jade events are put aside the result of that giving something has ended, debate strategies because that would be treated very differently for refuge. Weren't I've been, I would term ryan, riveted john fishermen and that's a very important thing. I think not enough people observe politics pay attention to I also would not underestimate the appeal in georgia. Running as the pastor of martin luther kings, church yeah Where really you wouldn't underestimate their willingness to something like talk? It's like you know that, big deal since your in georgia, and I think that makes you broadly appealing. In a way that other Democrats may have been sort of you know put in a box as your traditional democratic, partisan like when you are the passer vote with the kings church, it sort of rises above just your own base,

and especially in a state like george, and it makes see his personal story in his pen being a pastor gave him outsider credentials at a time in which people hate politics. I think it probably also made in this house has to do with his demeanor and historic campaign trail made it harder for republicans to pay him his next. as to use the same strategies that they use against me ala barns to use against Raphael warnock now, Very different states, two very different opponents by he insulate the here Personal story, I think in his personal demeanor insulated him from some of those attacks, are allowed him to navigate them away. That may maybe other candidates could not well. I also think he it's in practice, navigating them because he's had our he's had to run for office nonstop for half an hour s so that they clearly knew that those attacks were coming and that's why they.

All those ads at the beginning, as far back as twenty twenty of like yeah he's the pastor martin, the kings church, whose also you know, walk in his dog in the suburbs, and also talking about all the issues that voters, We care about right the much maligned kitchen table issues most of his adds were about that talking about he was. He was these senator most responsible for in making sure that the thirty five dollar cap on insulin, I ended up being included in the inflation reduction act, which is probably one of the most popular provisions in the bill so yeah he eat. He knew what he was doing now on the other side of this. How much of this outcome was about herschel walker and or donald trump. I saw a lotta georgia republicans point out correctly that their party one every other statewide race, but this one. The answer is books They are correct. Herschel walker at was eighteen

more candidates who did less well, then, all the they want republicans this was a year that Republican should have one and one the governess racing on intergenerational secretary of sex race republican house candidates did well the state by here's. The thing that I think is really interesting, is the results of this election are almost exactly the same, as the results of the run off and then but on january fifth, twenty That's an important thing remember because not election. Warnock was not running against russia, walker that election took. before the vote. Six insurrection took place before trumps second impeachment before frazier came for gas prices will not before russia invade ukraine and we have a decades worth of new. who's in these two years pandemic, spike vaccines. All of that and yet the rest almost ex aimed not a single county flipped the twenty twenty one. Twenty two in these risen

and that is sort of me. Bugger. It speaks of the thing that you're that, whenever cut you out on offline napoleon was recalled, calcified politics is that everything happened in this region. almost exactly one that happened with a different one, not a great appointed, but certainly someone better then her shall walk and you get the same result that's something that says something about the state of our politics and I think the key point about qualification, which and learn was on offline she's been on wilderness before they did five hundred thousand interviews with voters after the twenty twenty elections, that's quite a good sample size codification is that it started in twenty sixteen. It started when trump one in twenty sixteen and twenty sixteen twenty eighteen, twenty twenty twenty twenty two, regardless of what the poles said ahead of each election or the narrative. They all ended up being

extremely close elections, were there wasn't much movement between them now before twenty sixteen, yet all kinds of changes, re, like add steve, were knocking it hard up on twitter and anonymous and b c, just showing how many counties in Georgia has swung towards the Democrats over the last decade or so, but once you hit twenty six in the changes are in the map that you just reference that the twenty twenty one, twenty two maps, no counties flipped, you could cease. But the blue counties get slightly bluer. Some of the bluest counties gets lightly bluer and then some of the reddest counties get slightly redder and that's about it so you get. The polarization continues in all these counties. Red gets right or blue gets bluer, but really nothing else much happens. So I think all the walker stuff like there are There are swing. Voters, there are split ticket voters. Persuasion is probably made there all the difference in this election, but That is happening among a shrinking slice of

seventeen if any less important. Actually me that's more important because that's it so close and so closely divided by so many these elections are just start from a base where people are just doing the same thing they did for the last several years. The interesting thing about classification is, most people, look at the facts politics has been stuck and that nothing has changed things dramatically, not a pandemic, not trop non appeasement that insurrection, they say, lol, nothing matters, but that's the opposite. Truth. Classification means everything matters, because there is a small segment of voters, either people who are moving from party the party- or More likely people are moving from not voting to voting and in that sense that you tell us that everything- that is every single thing, we do a thing with physical say. Our single voter we talk too, could be the difference. Ember Biden only on this day by? You know, at less than a percent and twenty one One other thing about this that I think

Notable about this result is, I think, after twenty twenty. There was a question about whether twenty twenty result in georgia was an aberration in two thousand and eight obama, one three republican states indiana. we're carolina virginia and indiana what right back to being similar public. In fact, it's now much more republican in twenty twenty there was chosen north carolina democrats have not one a federal state wide race there. Since then, it is removed competitive by not that competitive. Since then, in virginia came a truly purple state leading blue where there as of one every presidential race since then most of the governor ships and have both entities It is fair to say that we now know because this wait. Twenty two results that georgia is a purple state that is going to be, idle ground state? Probably, probably, I would say, probably between virginia, north carolina is probably virginia virginia. Twenty twelve,

where did you twelve is quite competitive up until the very end their people thought we were probably gonna lose it. Why? I think it is that's the carnatic chart. You talked about this really interesting step that the ten countries that make up the metro Land area have moved forty two points in it Democrats direction since two thousand and four and is emblematic of the shift in our tor collisions much of that change has happened since two thousand and sixteen and that is, why do It is now a battleground state, but what is interesting about it is that shift You are trade, essentially trading, suburban voters, for rural voters is great for state like georgia is very good for a state like arizona, It may be helpful in texas one day, nationally that as a problem, because we are sure of this- It does not look like georgia in terms of rural verses, suburban and in,

because the electoral college and the senate, the vote that we are losing are actually much more politically impact will than the ones for gaining yet will depend on the state, because we have talked a lot about through demographic groups of voters, but the geography is probably more telling than anything else and states with large population centres atlanta, the phoenix metro area, especially large population centres that are growing that are getting younger, that more college educated voters are moving from other states to live there

is it across the sunbelt, like you said, in texas as well, those states are going to end up. Bat trade between suburban and rural is going to be better for us, but in states without large population centers like wisconsin, it's a little tougher and I think that's the big difference. I also think it's why, like Michigan, for example, sort of bounce back faster than wisconsin did for us, because you've got detroit and the suburbs around Detroit that have been for us so, but I do think, like the I, the the lard the question hanging over all of this, which we're going to talk about a second is how much trump has to do with all of this, because the other interesting stat was that trump endorsed a bunch of statewide candidates in georgia. All of them lost their primary, except for to one was herschel walker and the other was the lieutenant governor candidate who ran work, than any one else, but herschel walker brickwork. So like is this a trump trumps, not on the ballot? What happens in these states

this sort of a trump card suffocation, error or not, that we're gonna have to find out, and I also gone back to the original question about walker. Like think walker. Being such ape, dog shit candidate gave warnock the opportunity, but warnock still had to run a campaign to seize that opportunity like. I think that, if warnock wasn't the candidate that he was like, it just it. It was an automatic right that that anyone running against Hershel walker was going to win. You really really had to run a great campaign, so I dunno. If this is a blessing or a curse for warnock, but political playbook wrote that, with his win, a democratic political star was born. What's next for the senator, what would you I am to do get upon cast the oath, please don't recovery, a word act is he's awesome? He is. He has great. He has been a particular erika like three times last six weeks making mean he would. For that reason I hope for did reason. I

will be, will be like you should run for president. I have no idea if he should do that. We don't mean I'm presuming Joe Biden's, probably going to run. It doesn't really matter. I just hope that he is out there speaking on behalf of our party as often as possible. Yeah I'll eat up all the shows. Do the sunday shows you came over just be out there. the amount it himself each other. You acted. Congratulations on your re election have grown chuck tied up you're done with My regret it on your way to george. You know what ralphie I wanna call me. We ve done the full gins, where a great sorry and jake as our dick refer

in orange. We forgot- we forgot one of them. I know I said you're to eat. Anyhow, doesn't matter like, I think he's great. I hope he is out there a lot at that. He is a model for democrats politically Democrats running in the south. He is a very compelling messenger. We need more compelling messengers delivering the message. More often, I think he is great yeah I'd get out. There start giving speeches nationally and think about running for president twenty twenty eight, that's what I would do and I think that he hasn't been out there as much over the last couple of years, just because he knew this election was coming and he's been in campaign. mode, and the most important thing was to when the state of georgia and all the elections that he had to win their, which is more than most people, do in the senate. But now that he's got six years, I think now it's time to sort of raises national profile, and I don't just say that for like for his sake, but, like you said he is a fantastic speak.

And he knows how to win in a very, very competitive state without sacrificing any of his principles, values or policy position. So, and that is rare in this party, and he should go out there and speak for the party as much as he can. So what her conceded herschel walker, conceded, saying: there's no excuses in life and I'm not gonna make an excuse is now because we put up one heck of a fight. So that means every major republican candidate across the country, with the exception of Harry lake has now conceded in a mid term, where a lot of proud election deniers ran for office. What do you make of that? Why do you think that happened? That donald trump is a unique form of sociopath yeah it it it just what he did. Re re truly required sociopathic tendencies, I'm sure we're going to I'm going to be. Actually,

a lot of people who are experts in n in that subject, but just to be able to, against all evidence, against all truth, to be able to claim an obvious lie and stick to it to the point that you kid in sight, a violent insurrection is truly unique behaviour, and It only works if you have the leader of the party pushing it it isn't even really were for carry lake like the people aren't like rallying to her defence is not really getting out of tension, only works with tromp, which it should give us some tiny measure of comfort that only trump this in a real, truly dangerous way, but we Let also remember that he is almost certainly going to be the republican nominee and as a cornfield away from president states again, so the the threat to democracy that

this it before this election still exists in almost the exact same way. Is it it whether harsher walker and, like masters conceded or not? Yet? Does he like it was easier to embrace the big live in create one Your own thoughts when I take in that a lot of these folks Some of them are through crazies, but I think a lot of these folks embraced the big lie, maybe never really believe trumps election denials, but knew that that was the only path to victory in the republican party. Not to excuse them still horrific to do that. But I think that explains that when they lost why they just conceited and sort of faded away, as opposed to the stand and an attempt to do what carry like us doing right now, so. The Democrats will now have fifty one votes and set a fifty. What will that changing the congress, where republicans will also control the house a couple of things? What it means that Democrats?

a true majority. When in a fifty fifty cent it you have to negotiate with the republicans and the organizing resolution, you have equal numbers on committees. Here, Democrats have a true majority bacon organised the congress they can set up. A committee is about having to deal with much mcconnell. matters, a lot and this I think its loss, because we have this view- that's like we're gonna get to more anti. El buster senators and then we will never think of Joe mansion kirsten cinema again. That did not happen, obviously in him, if we did you that we will have the house, so it's not like we be passing a whole bunch of legislation that is subjected to filibuster, but what I think it's lost is the mansion and cinema or difficult, but are often difficult for different reasons. And the various iterations adult back better bill. There are lots of things that your mansion was wont to do that. Democrats, love like raise taxes on corporations that european cinema when on some climate stuff. Their excuse and cinema will do that. Mansion won't care, since it I will do things in terms of cancer.

laws that mansion walter. Now you only need one of the two of them. If you are in a position in that may not in that matter in legislation, because I'm so we now have the house. But in terms of nominees you have asked that we can now lose one matters It's gonna make Joe Biden. Life easier, is going to church humours life easier for going to make. Lives easier, which is not for nothing and and if you can make your sitting easier because we won't spend the next two years talking about your mansion on it, like you, like you, don't like that, and the downloads prove it. We know we don't like doing. No one is going to look back Joe mansion era fondly that's so maybe dimension I folks it's me chris gathered and I host beautiful anonymous. Every week I talked to one anonymous person on the phone for an hour. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's inspirational. It's heartbreaking. It gets dark. All of the above. I've talked to somebody found love in a mental hospital.

to a woman who was about to turn herself over the federal authorities. A mother waiting on the results of their daughters, cancer, diagnosis. So many more look out for who episode beautiful Anonymous every tuesday, the senate, subscribed to beautiful anonymous on stitched apple pod casts the serious ex app or your favorite podcast up. whether you're looking to buy or sell with the remax engine they'll use their years of experience to help you plan for now and later from when this welcome to your new home baby girl turns into this home, and this hate this place turns into this. I'm really going to miss this place from tiny steps to your next big move when you're ready to make a change, visit, www, remax, dot com or download the remax app to find the right agent. The right agent can lead the way each office independently owned and operated.

The journey, wonderful with celebrity cruises, discover the world's best places like europe, alaska and the caribbean on our award. Winning resorts at sea wake up to a new view. Every morning dine in a new restaurant every evening and riser rest and rejuvenate book with our spring into summer, sale to enjoy our biggest offer of a year visit, celebrity cruises, dot, com or call one eight hundred celebrity or contact your travel advisor offer applies to select sailings. Certain restrictions apply, visit, celebrity dot com for details, ship transfer, malta, electoral other big loser out of georgia, as we ve mentioned, Donald trump trumps, endorsement record for, All state, why can't we talked about is a record in georgia for all state wakened its across the country in the mid terms, is now to wins. Fourteen losses, not a great record, instil so

Oh walkers loss was not the worst thing that happened to trump. On tuesday, his company, the trump organization, was found guilty on seventeen counts of tax fraud, scheming to defraud conspiracy and falsifying business records. This is the case where trumps chief financial officer, Alan weissenburg, already pledge guilty but refused to implicate trump himself, though prosecutors did repeatedly tell the jurors that the former president personally approved the illegal scheme, something he of course deny I'd in a series of truths? Sudan? The penalty here is but a million and a half dollars, though The manhattan DA is reportedly still investigating trump now for the stock, Daniels, hush money payments has that for a deep cotton, I forgot. I forgot about that one up, but do you think that trump running a business convicted of fraud will become an issue in the two thousand and twenty four campaign

primary or general. That's tough question John! I I think a broad based we dancing around the predictions own here, so it's very very worrisome, this are making productions, is close to nears resolution time by It is more likely to begin issue in our primary than a general. We know from the twenty twenty election that there is a lot of things that nearly half of americans willing to look past to elect a candidate. They think is moral wine with their political control, whether that is managing a pandemic, extorting ukraine just being a general. Do this all of the things that trumped in providing an insurrection? You know it is this that different, then, the trump university case that happened for the rising tina lecture, and so I think I don't know the the fact

Donald trump is a really sketchy business person is new. Information is going to shift a ton of votes in a general election in a primary. sure whether to be one which, as we should know trumped, currently has no primary opponents and is running unopposed republican nomination, It is another piece of evidence that donald trump is a chaotic mass who could be a drag on the ticket, and that is not because all the sudden republican voters have developed real moral opposition into corporation stealing, it is with. This will be because another example that he is come loose and is a serious political weakness. Now reminder of all of the bad behaviour engine. general nonsense that they believe cost them the senate in this election. It costs them help

the large house majority thought they were going to have. This is a piece of evidence to that they could be utilised against him in a primary one. Of the great debates of the trump era has been how to brand trump potted defined tromp right. There's a lot of targets is the extreme. Is he a con? Man is a liar, I do feel over the last several weeks month, the loser frame the lot of people, lessing around that our party, the other party, never trumpery newly never trumpery is probably trump not in the primary people, they're all sorts. coalescing around the loser frame, and I think this you can, like you said furrowed into the loser bucket any like, of course, republicans are doing this out of some. But you know, ah they didn't moral awakening here, but who cares? We is, saw the power of the elect ability. Argument on our

side of the primary in two thousand and twenty. I think it could have that same power, if not greater on their side in twenty twenty four. If trump gets opponents who will actually prosecute the case, that is a big Britain s impact, is a big. If we also learned this week of january, six committee does plan to issue criminal referrals to the justice department and seen in reply. Jamie dangle said she's been told. The trump will be on the list of middle referrals, as well as some of his allies. The committee is reportedly targeting december twenty first for the full reply, port? We will see, we thought. Maybe we'd get some news. while we were recording but of course, it'll come after but anyway, it seems like he's gonna be unless we ve got. what about how a referral from the committee wouldn't really affect d o j decision one way or the other. So what do you make of all this is this is gonna be like

couple headlines and then that's it and then we're gonna wait for the oj. Basically, yes, I think the we would see more headlines if the committee shut down without making criminal referrals, then if they do make removal it's the right thing to do. He committed crimes. You did this very serious investigation. You spent a lot of time and effort successfully making the case for the country about this. Occasion and of your conclusion is that trump committed crimes which it seems like you did. You should tell some people that add you don't want to do, is I hope, Jim again, gallows She is very wired up with republicans of a certain era. She was the favourite reporter of the bush. Famine, and so I imagine I'm guessing I mean she is familiar with. A certain since hero related to a former republican vice president. it would, I think, you'll be real, problematic if your choices are no referrals, refer

as for individuals not other than trump enron and or trump the worst case scenario. There is referrals of people and not including trouble wes, because he will use his eyes of out and out I'll jump into the predictions are now and that's not happen. Eliza. My bark mark this tide. We do. We will keep these recordings. Do so okay, so this isn't on snapchat these go away. So anyway, probably here's our ears are shared political analysis, probably not good for tromp if he gets a group or preferable from the rear, its nigh once again changing lots, whose minds, but it when you're drawn up the first few weeks a campaign I was this is not what you are again here. So here The team, the trump team plan, the campaign kick off one cause republicans the mid terms to dine with nazi that your beach club,

three proposed: terminating the constitution for cost republicans. One last sentence eaten georgia, five role at a series of convictions and criminal referrals six boom right back at the white house the most pressing on from here. May only forty four forty eight forty nine percent chance that can work riddle. No, are you what there is this it could this be the beginning of the end, or is just this just like the hundredth time that we have said that it might A hundred is dramatically. I know me, I didn't know that has been said in political discourse. I dont know if this is the beginning of the end or not. It does feel like. There is a real shift. Any real operate unity for someone, anyone willing to step up and do something to defeat trump in this republic into push trumpet.

In case because, prior to this mid term elections, I think all of trumps outrageous behaviour that crime The corruption were almost a reinforcement of his political strength as you Do this terrible stuff in suffer no apparently no real consequences for he could have the excess hollywood. They begin to attack the ghost families in twenty sixteen and then went and then get impeached and side would nazis, and I would put into all these things and then all Sweden and twenty twenty, and then he inside it Violent insurrection. Most of the party threw him aside, and then he rose back the power like in twelve minutes and that he had this political invincibility that Republican who had a real loser complex since those into Obama twice thought they were not capable of, and but I think that is change. I think it is clear to a lot of people that the emperor has no clothes. The trouble

liability, not an asset. Now you're going to have to make that case. Someone who's gonna have to do that. The opportunity is there, and that is different than all the other times they were. There was all these are registered I'll. Try It was in the context of his sword, surviving admit similar things for the first time ever. There is real evidence that trump is worth is bore politically weaken the rest of the republicans. He gives them less of a chance to win than others, and that is a part, for running for the nomination of a party that cares about political power above all else. Yet again, this is, if trump as parties nominee. All these people who are speaking out against Now questioning him and the republican party thorough going online most like ninety Percent of them are going to fall in line who are grew, aren't already never trumpery, so we're out questioning that, but you right in a primary contacts

the number of people who are either calling him a loser or insinuating that he might be a loser is probably higher than it's been in quite some time. Of course, we have to wait till the first votes are cast and the first republican primary in two thousand and twenty four to know, because even if trump is it to sent in the polls most of next year. The guy could still come back, and actually winsome primaries, and then, when the nomination so like, we will have. for a year and not know for sure his actual strength or weakness until people start voting, but you ve got like you know, cause men food in the senator, like I don't think we can win and lindsey graham, is buddy. The other day said: oh, he still popular in the party people appreciate as president They appreciate is fighting spirit, but there is beginning to be a sense. Can he when, as a threat the lord ingram, the other night start as she she's turned on trump. Why one of the big republican media stars? So look? I think it's

I would put it this way. I think it is time for all of when the democratic side to start defining rhonda santas for who he is which is a right wing radical, and it is time to start doing some work on Rhonda santa's, just in case for sure or what else they could be you're right, you're right as it ever was remarkably vicious piece on rhonda scientists in the atlantic from a week or so ago. because it's very possible rhonda santas is going to fall flat on his face ass. He seems to have the interpersonal skills of a banana slug, which uppish does it in a personality based media in polish political environment that hasn't seen great as you, really can't for president without speaking to other humans and seems to be some job has. Something resembling charisma for a lot of people in russia's interests may have none now be problematic, but there is a possibility. There's a I think

first time trump seems like a loser, and that is the worst thing that can happen him yeah. I agree. So do you think the fantasy or other potential twenty twenty four hopefuls should be kicking the shit out of trump right now or do you think you understand their strategy Irena. I understand their individual strategic decisions, but much like twenty sixteen, the republican per annum, through the trump presidency. The republican party has had a collective action. Problem. Comes a trump It is in all of their collective interests for trump to go up but is it none of their individual interests to be the one who tries to make trump go away, because the first person who comes out against trump is a sack of russia, lamb You understand why I completely understand why Rhonda santas right now thinks it is in his interest to have meetings with donors the in the background be the generic alternative to trump, but in making, individualization for himself in opportunity

being missed collective way to take advance. Of this moment of weakness for trumped. You go after him before he can gather strength to stop him from gaining momentum in the new, are in some way shape or form. Were he to be indicted at some point early next year you could see a situation in which that he could turn that to his advantage. Much like all there weakens rallying to his side after the fbi visited his beach house to reclaim the nations greater secrets. What you need, someone who was not around need not a cheney, not an atom cleansing or not but again welcome too on the MSNBC prime time to make a case against trump. that person is unlikely to be then, and you're not going to do it through such waiting. An implicit criticism. Yeah, though, I think that the implicit criticism thing I think of something else going on here, which is

if you're, going to win the republican primary you like, there's, there's, there's trump fans, there's the diehards, who are just going to vote for trump and they're they're, probably lost to you, but then there's probably ate a pool of republican voters, probably a critical pool of republican voters who, like donald trump, very much but are open to somewhat voting for someone else in the primary and twenty twenty four, and I, I think, there's probably legitimate concern among the other republican candidates that you don't want to piss those voters off by shitting on trump all the time and taking too hard of a hit at trump. We there's a lot of things that are very, very different, but, like we dealt with this with Hillary Clinton in two thousand and eight in that primary and that very long primary like we knew that there's a lot of people in the party who had very fond feelings towards Hillary Clinton liked Hillary Clinton and the reason that we that most of obama's criticism of hilary was implicit throughout most of the primary

We want to piss those voters off and we want them to be open to voted for us. I think there are a couple of distinctions here that are important, which is the republic in primaries. Are winner takes all right, so you have to action beat trump in. I can feel field if he's winning with eighteen nineteen. Twenty one percent he's getting all the delegates. We could navigate that jumping until it, because if we came in second, we were netting almost as many delegates ass. She did so we could get a more favourable territory. The republican primary, I think, demands more grass. earlier actually mean that time is right. Now, bide, they're gonna have a different strategic calculation. If you are going defeat, trump debenham he will run if it is to santa xvi, tromp or some other public v trop in a one on one, but the exact argument you made about not hissing off their voters is the exact argument that the jet were super.

I used to spend eighty million dollars or whatever it was not attacking trump going after rubio, instead of trump and all of that him again strength so someone it could in this situation that real people Spin real money troubles in some ways insulated against some of this stuff in a way that other cancer, not because he has a fundraising base, he doesn't need endorsements. Even if the billionaires line up behind rhonda, santa's tromp, probably needs less money, because he has so good at getting media attention, but there I think that the fair It's here is that trump as weak as he has been since the immediate aftermath of generally sex, and will If anyone learnt the lessons about what happened january six. Are you going to actually take aggressive action to try to stop him now? Are you going to wait until it's too late? He was a great president. Absolutely can't win this time.

I think, that's I think, that's why they all land army elect ability are know for sure for she's popular. So it is that it is the way to not piss off trump voters, but to really go after him. Hard on, we need to win, we ve been losing, and this guy's not the way to it donald trump great president, John five row december eight years, one, and only to have it getting out there are, I when we come back streets written his cage. Our talks to Dan about the Supreme court's oral arguments this week to big cases around gay rights and democracy.

Celebrate mom for mothers day with help from whole foods market, whether your treating her to brunch dinner or nice gift you'll, find it all in one place from may ten, through sixteenth, fifteen stem bunches of tulip, sir on sale, just nine. Ninety nine for amazon, prime members plus shot three sixty five by whole foods market for brunch staples on a budget including smoke salmon. The many keys trio and more for dessert pick up a heart shaped cake from the bakery. Only the best for mom at whole foods market terms apply at folks it's me chris gathered and I host beautiful anonymous. Every week I talked to one anonymous person on the phone for an hour. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's inspirational. It's heartbreaking. It gets dark. All of the above. I've talked to somebody found love in a mental hospital, talked to a woman who is about to turn herself over to federal authorities, a mother waiting on the results of her daughter's cancer diagnosis. So many more look out for

who episode beautiful anonymous. Every tuesday, the senate subscribed to beautiful anonymous on stitched. Apple pod casts the serious ex app or your favorite podcast up. When it comes buying your first home. Everyone has questioned even afford to buy house right now. Why me Negotiate do even negotiate locally Max agent has answer he pay Brian. Those are really good questions face, so I first signed by our First time liars, all the time I got you, remakes agents have more experience than other real estate agents, visit, rematch dot, com or download the remarks app to find the right age it the right agent. led. The way each office independently owned and operated This week, the supreme court heard arguments on two very important cases that will affect american life in american politics. Joining us now to help us understand them is a co host of the crooked media, strict scrutiny, kitchen cake, welcome to the pot, hey dan thanks for having me it's great to see you, okay

two important cases, wake feels like they're back when it comes to us, in court doesn't seem like that long ago They were taking away rights for millions and millions of americans and now there are two very consequential cases before us. I want to start with the first one, which is from colorado, which involves a graphic designer who wants to advertised for working on waiting websites but doesn't when a serve same sex couples this seems very familiar, I think, to myself into a lot of our listeners of a case from about five years ago involving a baker. Could you bus understand. What is it? take in this case How is is different different from the previous case. We re done so. This is kind of a sequel to masterpiece cake shop, which is the kids about the baker who didn't wanna, big wedding. for a same sex couples so swap out baker. or web designer and that three or three creative this case I'm so she says she doesn't want to make waiting websites for same sex couples, she's issued believing gay marriage, and she says

custom websites are a kind of artistic expression. Actually, the baker and masterpiece cake shop, jack, philip, said the same thing about his cakes and she says the First amendment protects her from being told to whom she must sell, that kind of expressive or artistic service. Colorado, has a state law that says if you provide You know commercial goods or services. You can't disk on the basis of characteristics like sexual orientation, right, in addition to things like race and disability and say this colorado law like isn't unique. It is an example of the kind of law we have in many states in the federal government rate, these people, the combinations laws and we have them. because in many states before we did before this right era. You had businesses like hotels and restaurants that literally refuse to serve black customers. So that's the origin of these laws honestly, that's kind of what's at stake. If the court sides with this web designer right, like whether government can guarantee he that people will be denied service in the public marketplace because of who they are

based on the idea of listening to the arguments is never a perfect and to figure out what's going to happen. But what did you take away from some of the questions that were asked and some of the things that justice has said about what? Where this case may be going yeah I should say that the justices are still live streaming argument, so you know people can like if your blood I sure can handle it. You can just sit at home minus a lot of practice and I still struggle but yeah. You can listen either in real time like at ten am eastern on the argument days or like later in the day with a glass of wine. I actually think it's really good that they've kept that pandemic practice of letting the public listen to their deliberations. It's formative and actually in this case, I think it was pretty terrifying honestly. So in terms of how this is going, I think that this web designer lorry smith is all but certain to win this case, and it's just a question of she winds and what the justices say about other cases that might be impact, it so

This is kind of a weird case, because Laurie smith hasn't been asked to design a wedding website for same sex couples. So it's like an entirely speculative case, and I think because of that, there were all these weird hypothetical questions that the justices were throwing out like if the website below design service, we just like a template that you just put your name and two with the first amendment protect her from having to type in like make and lou. If that's the couple getting married, you- maybe not, but this isn't a custom building websites that artistic and then you know, things get us just. It's been katana g brown, jackson, the newest member of the corridor, I should say, is like a true force of nature in these oral arguments. She has been incredible so, even if your blood pressure can't handle the full like three hours like it's worth, dipping into hear her questions, because they're so good, He asked a really good. I think a question which is about like a photography business at a shopping. Mall so she says, the holiday season. There's a photographer. wants to like photograph scenes with santa and wants to expire, this photographers own views of christmas nostalgia from Nineteen, forty and fifty years and

we're gonna have a santa kids can interact with Santo. We can take these like sepia toned photos, but we only want white kids in the pictures, and yet it was a great hypo, because I think, if you protect this web designer, it's hard to see how you dont also protect this racist photographer right, and so she took so. She poses is really good hypothetical and I think you know the lorry psmith lawyer really struggled with answering it, and then things got really weird, because sam Alito, who is this honestly kind of a master gas lighter in oral arguments, started trying to make the argument that the court basically has to say it aside with the web designer in order to protect the value pluralism and diversity, and he did this by saying. Ok so say you have a mall and you have it santa in the mall, and then you have kids dressed up in clan outfits. shouldn't that black santa get to refuse to take the picture with these kids, which is like so weird in so many ways. Firstly, kids in clan outfits we're what d my legs, no from which springs these kinds of ideas and then

like as justice kagan jumped into savory clearly protect on the basis of your costume, your clan outfit, that's not a characteristic. That's protected under colorado law, but but he's laughing the whole time he's asking this hypo is actually kind of diabolical, but you know I think that It actually does make clear that its this case is not just about like this one off with a web designer right like we have these long standing laws against state and federal that protect people against discrimination when they are just going out to secure some good service in the marketplace and carving out exception for somebody, because they have an action too finding a service for a couple on the basis of sexual orientation. I think, opens up the possibility that all kinds of people could face. discrimination that they ve been able to be no exist in public spaces, really free from for many many years. This has the potential to be incredibly decent lies. Another court might try to write an opinion that says you know these

this artistic into their different, and this this doesn't extend to like denying I was at a restaurant or a hotel, but as again the brilliant this jackson was offering a proposal? What, if I'm saying saying like my you, I am using my grandma's recipes and I'm trying to stay true too, vision and she had a vision that, like only protestants, should eat her food, like that was the could the hypo that jackson offered and select its ease. see how finding for this weapon weiner who doesn't want to make websites for gay couples all of a sudden means rampant discrimination in the public sphere, and it is happening at it if, if I'm right about what the court is likely to do, it's happening like at the worst possible moment, right, like you have lawmakers in many states demonizing I'll gb tissue people, particularly trans people, you have trump inviting waiter Mrs tomorrow logo right in the court here is like poised to say the first amendment fourteen your ability to discriminate in the provision of commercial goods and services, like- I think, all of us, pretty dangerous combination, but that's very likely to me where this decision is headed, as you said, no one

asked there were no sense of couples who asked him what was under, which that tell me if I read this requires that the fat the court. The for could easily dismiss this case on standing cracks are the fact that they took it suggests There are some. The justices, were looking for a way to go further than they went in the baker case. Five years goes that right, totally you know they didn't have to take the case in the first place. It's an entirely manufactured case, in which, typically there, alive dispute between parties right somebody has been injured in some way and it just hard to see how that exists here. So I think it is almost certainly the case that some guy, this is where unsatisfied What happened in the case, and in that case the court kind. It took an ramp didn't basically issue this big broad first, amendment ruling that says this baker is protected, doesn't have to big cakes for anybody he doesn't want to. Instead, they basically looked at

the proceedings and set it looked like they were state officials who were biased against jack, phillips, this baker and biased against religion, and so they sent the case back by kind of taking this perhaps so here you had some justices who clearly we're like. We are eager to reach this question, and so they took this really weird kay in order to reach it, and there had been previous cases involving other you know, so you had a cake case. This is a website case. You had a wedding florist case. You had a photographer case. There have been other cases that before Had this newly constituted in our concern Super majority, those cases just kind of came up and the court didn't take them, but there it is an appetite in you. You actually heard a couple of times courses in particular reference that the key. case, and he mentioned and is clearly still kind of, like smarting. From that case, he mentioned jack. Philip The baker having been required to attend array, creation programme is how he described it, which is like wow

an offensive and literally what philips had to do was, like you know, go through some training on anti discrimination law in colorado. If we have to do a lot of anti in a trainings on the job like it's pretty routine, but you know too knowledge is an end discrimination kind of training to re occasion camps right, like literally like communist labour camps. It was a pretty it sort of reveals. Thing about the can ecosystem that core such I think we ask that question kind of moves in. So yeah that that was unfinished business in the twenty eighteen masterpiece, cakes occasion. I think the court is likely to go. Maybe even further than it would have gone back. Then again that was a different court. You still had justice kennedy on the court. You still had justice ginsburg on the court. This is a really different court. The other case of the court heard this week was one called harper the more. I think, a lot of progressive out. There have been told to be very worried about this case. It is gravy Grady, you're to democracy?

I do not understand why there is supposed to be worried about it. Could you explain why case and what the independent state legislature theory is that everyone's been told to be so afraid of shore absent and I think it's right that when the court agreed to hear this case, it was the end of june when it announced it was gonna. Take the case up seemed really ominous, because you know the case is basically it's This idea called the independent state legislature, theory- and you know it scott all kinds of like trompe qualities right this idea, and so is the intellectual architect in modern times anyway. Of this idea at least one version of it is John eastman right. If that tells you something and so in and in some ways I think it's right that this is you note this theories of a polite and like more legally palatable sounding way to undermine or reject democracy than just like rejecting it outright. There's like oh, this is a theory, and there is some

support you can cobbled together for it, and maybe it's it's kind of plausible sounding enough. You could get a bunch of justices to sign onto it and it really does have very profound and a democratic implication. So I think that's why people were so worked up about it, but I think it's right. The people aren't even totally shoreward it's about her once at stake, so this idea is basically just that the state just later, and only the state legislature gets to regulate federal elections. So if state, It's our reading, their state constitutions in saying the state constitution has a fair elect. In clause or a free elect or a first amendment or an equal protection clause, and the state law is somehow inconsistent with the state constitution, while constitutions control and then happens kind of routinely state courts read their constitutions in ways that no help facilitate voting, but this theory says no. No, that's actually unacceptable, because the federal constitution says only the state legislature can set the rules for federal elections. So if a state, you know, executive branch, official or estate judge does anything to tie

federal elections. That's inconsistent with this part of the federal constitution called the elections clause and this whole idea. Could it comes from a concurrence first as gore, and it sort of was dormant for about twenty years, and then it got raised and embraced by some justices during the pandemic. because there were some state courts and state election affair, those that were five easing ordinary rules. deadlines around voting because it this once in a century pandemic and so he's challengers, were looking in oak to find ways to make it or to vote. No, you don't have the power to make election rules at all. You court or you be no state executive branch official, because only the state legislature gets to make those rules I am so that's kind of that sort of theory. At the heart of this case- and I should say I mentioned and before its related to another idea, which is that only the stately? This later gets to basically set rules for picking presidential electors and that up

including deciding they're unhappy with what the people of the state have done in a presidential election, so that they could throw up those votes and just appoint electors themselves. That's obviously what eastman and others were trying to get state led later in places like georgia and arizona to do. Ok, so that's or of the boy- story? In terms of this case, you know a kind of a routine case in which than that north carolina legislature drew map after twenty twenty cents, as it was a badly gerrymandered map. Some people fail to challenge and said Gerrymander is unconstitutional under the north carolina constitution and they the north carolina Supreme court agreed that this map was an unknown impermissible. Partisan, gerrymander, and so it sent the case back down and have been overcome national masters drew a new map, but then these once this theory ass the supreme court to step in and said what the states supreme court did when it throughout that map. That's impairment, because only the legislature gets to regulate elections, including drawing maps and united russian about the ashworth, which is the reason hobby of I think I have this right, but its mercosur, I don't

really put aside the John man pick your own electors piece of this, which has long Democrats worried reason. Why a lot of nine active insurrectionists republicans? how about this is because the federal courts have said have no role in partisan jerry matters. Is that correct, because Is you really going to roberts so the only way in which the only check against harrison? German, as my state legislature, those are overwhelmingly controlled by republicans right now. Our stay courts in state courts through our republic very republican maps in places like north carolina, ohio elsewhere. So this is a way to solve that problem To give just a few of you if they wait in this case by the interpreters, buddy independence at such a theory, Then they can partisan jerry and are as much as they want and no one can stop them other than the voters who just had their votes discounted because of german cracks net. that's exactly right. The one additional piece of this is the other,

on gerrymandering. Legislators are independent commissions and the same logic. That would say the state court can throw up, mounts might be standard to say those commissions are also unconstitutional, because only the legislature can do things like drawn up so yeah. So it's very much. It is all about jerry, ring and I think that's why you're right some non insurrectionists republicans? are still on board, with some version of the I l t, because you know it would empower states just stated that gerrymander without a lot of meaningful checks, because the u s supreme court, has said that the federal courts can't constrained gerrymandering. The partisan gerrymandering is a non justifiable political question so ok, so I think the coming out of going into the argument a lot of reason to be very concerned- and I think that the maximum list version like the eastman or easement adjacent version of the I s did not seem How much support me bc, I'm a like me, be corsican, thomas, but that that's the mode and maybe not even those three so that

good news- and I think that if europe in our spending a lot of time, you supreme court these days, it's an unfamiliar feeling to come out of an argument that could have gone worse actually and it, and that is, I think, one big important takeaway. I also think there was a lot of playing with like a cop My solution like what might not look like, if you know we're some limits on state courts, ability to you know regulate in federal when it comes to better elections, maybe cloning and striking down gerrymandered maps, and even if it, like framed in a modest and compromise way, and maybe even it gets like a democratic appointee vote or two. I think still really consequential and potentially really problematic result, because the court has now before asserted that federal courts get to second guess what the courts do when they interpret their own constitution and, like the idea of federalism, is really that states know get to run the show in certain respects, on when it comes to interpreting state constitutions. Federal courts have basically stayed out of

and this, I think, would be something new to say. The federal constitution in this one part of article one gives federal courts the power to second guess. The court's interpreting throne, institutions, and could I think mean that you know in? hands of this supreme court. They might find in the future o this states supreme court decision that throughout a gerrymandered map in they went too far Are and thus we're going to reverse it under this modest, but still important version of this I sell tee. So so I do think that having a new standard debts articulated in this case that gives more power to the federal courts going into the twenty twenty four press. Annual action is actually really pretty problematic and that it might actually give ammunition for individuals who one up in a file lawsuits challenging things that state courts have done that other election officials have done and they will have had imprimatur of the supreme court on this theory again, even if it's not the biggest boldest possible version of the theory. So I'm you know that sanguine about a compromise solution being fine, I do think that it would mean the court could

in democracy literally with this case. If it want to do- and I don't think- that's gonna happen, but I still think We are really dangerous press depending on how it's written and what is made of it, that that is my fear as well base ourselves less expertise, but the understanding that serve their pride dobbs notwithstanding the history of the roberts court. What generally happens is roberts finds a way to come to in a in that avoids the worst headline but gets the same. We're, not gonna, overturned the voting rights act, we're just going. You got it with an inch of its life, so you it yet functionally white, the right ones with butts allowing people to say? Oh John Robert save the day again is just if we end up in that, Is there a specific set of things that are concerning two? You do have a view of where that could go by which it will be watching for it. When we get opinion in june is correct that when we get this opinion most like I,

by the end of june and I think very likely not not until then the end of the term. I mean you know, it'll turn a little bit on the details like if, if basically, what the supreme court says is state constitutions kin enforce vague open, ended state constitutional provisions about me, no voting rights and fair elections, and things like that, because that was an argument that these north carolina legislators were making. That, I think, is normous blow to the actual, meaningful participation of states. It is in elections that are administered by states, because state constitutions actually have pretty good protections for voting actually much much better than the federal constitution, and if there's explicit limitations on state courts, ability to actually enforce those provisions, state constitutions, whether that comes you know when it comes to act. That penal exercising the franchise were things like maps that data it will be really problematic. If what the court does is, it doesn't say anything about how some state constitutional provisions are like, too vague or general to be enforced, just as there are no limits if a state

court issued an opinion that is like really jumped the shark and doesn't seem to be doing meaningful, like law making me that's a narrow kind of standard, but it just honestly anything but a complete rejection of this I sell tee is make me pretty nervous both because of what it might give em listen for the elite against to do, but also like state legislatures or pay. Tension right and if they think that all the supreme court has basically blessed this idea, that we have a special status under the federal constitution and the others date end you don't really get to do much. It's really come for us to run the show you know I again does not explicitly say that they could do something like you know, that in theory, disappoint electors outright, but there could be some broad you know, is support for that that they could read into a supreme court opinion. So anything short of a complete rejection, I think, has the potential to be pretty dangerous wealth. On that ominous note, we will live

category three. Thank you so much for joining us. It is always good to talk to you. Thanks to him, all right, thanks to kate shopper. Us today. Everyone have great weakened and we'll talk you next week by everyone, pod save america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer Andy gardener Bernstein, our producers, Hayley muse and bolivia Martinez. Its mixed in edited by andrew chadwick I'll segment and charlotte Linda sound engineered the show, thanks to helsinki, for irish, sandy gerard anti taft ingesting how for production support into our digital team, logically Phoebe Bradford, Milo came and Amelia monday. Our episodes are up his videos at youtube dot com, such pod, save america.

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