Alli Webb ON: How to Embrace Imposter Syndrome \u0026 Ways to Take Small Steps Towards Big Success

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would you need no matter where you are in life when you need coverage options, your state farm agent is there to help on the phone or in person like a good neighbor state farm? Is there I think deletion is maybe nor in red flag, say no, no, it's gonna be fine. What are you doing? Why you're, not listening those mistakes in those red flags actually are really great gifts. Afterward you like. Oh, I needed to learn entrepreneur tally with the co founder of dry bar. One. hundred million dollar empire. I've had this shame, I didn't want to be divorced once and now I'm heading into divorced wife. Can I be in love with a person and myself and what I'm doing I haven't been able to figure that out yet before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier

thea and more healed? All I want you to do. Is click on this subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we just getting started I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means well the best selling number one healthy welded. Why Harry harry on welcome back to you on purpose, to number one health podcast in the world thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now you know that our communities all about becoming happier healthier and more healed. and whether it's your career, whether it's your relationships, whether it's your personal life, we try to focus on all aspects on on purpose. Today's guest, Someone who's excited to share with us. What I believe is the truth and it's called the mess, he truth alley web who Tell you about in a second. This book is all about how she sold her business.

it's for millions but almost lost herself. The messy truth is available right now we're going to put the link in the caption, so you can order it while you're listening to this conversation, in and for those of you don't don't know. Annie web is the founder of dry by new york times best selling off the canopy president co founder of squeeze bright side and beckoning quill in twenty and drive our exploded into a national. You recognised and highly sought after brand growing. To over one hundred and fifty locations and highly successful product line which sold for two hundred and fifty five million dollars in twenty twenty staying. True to ali signature, approach to beauty and self care squeeze follow suit as an innovative monsieur this concept alley join forces with Ella base, jewelry designer narrative quill to build yet another new company, now known as beckett inkwell. Most recently, Allie joined the canopy team as president and I'm

your daddy, because we bumped into each other recently at a soccer game for ball game for angel city of sea. Please welcome to the show ali when ali. Thank you for being here. Thank you thanks for that introduction. Of course you had to live at all, as I always tell my guess of this. You know the time love. Your book just immediately captured my attention, because I couldn't agree more that every success story is underpinned by the messy truth, and we often don't hear about the messy truth. We often see the messy truth. Sometimes we people want to know about the message. Tat we'd rather believe in the facade the beauty or the perfection of the perfect image that we see and I'm really glad you're sharing their sucks. I have two the things I want to ask you from the book today. I highly recommend everyone goes buys, buys the book, especially if you're on your own, your journey. Maybe you want to be

entrepreneur you're thinking about anything about how do I figure out all this stuff? So so, let's start with This idea alley that a lot of audience a lot of our community, wants to be entrepreneurs yeah they It may already be entrepreneurs. Some of them are struggling. Some of them are winning. Some of them are still figuring out what their even then do. What is the messy truth about? Starting that no one tells you about starting specifically. Well, you know, I think, that we live in a generation now where we are. Finally, at the point, which wasn't the case when I was starting out where it is exists, well to get to hear words really going on their summer panels and so many conferences where you know entrepreneurs are talking about more of the real stuff which I'm she were grateful for, lay said, thirteen years ago we started dry bar. That's an exists like nobody assignment talking anything. You know you can have access to founders or sea who is the way you do now and it's such a beautiful thing that there's punkahs like theirs and there's places where people who are thinking about starting

isn't. This can go like. I have a mastermind, that's launching next week, where it's like for entrepreneurs like there's so much access out there now, but you know, I think there is still understandably So it's like I mean everybody wants to look good and everybody wants to like show their best side and for me it's like I, always just been drawn to the like, you know the real mess and maybe it's because I've always been a bit of an underdog. You know me starting from the time I was a kid. My my older their michael is my business partner and drive- are you he was like the old or achiever in our family, like very you, know, kind of more book. Smart and just you know, was kind of either always in trouble or always doing something really amazing. There wasn't really alive in between, and I was kind of a what a wallflower which, if you know me now, that is not my personality and all but back then I was just kind of observing my brother in trouble or doing something great. I grew up in this with this lake. I was in the background.

and I think that, as as I've gotten older, I have felt like more wanting to you know talk about now my story and like how I was like a like a bit of it. I think I have a chapter in the book called like that unlikely entrepreneur, something like that. I should probably know all the chapters but but I have always consider myself like kind of this underdog and link, not who you expect to succeed, and I think I guess I have called to shine light on that, because there are a lot of us out there. You know- and I don't have a traditional path and I think that at one point it was like there is this society Like you have to go to college, you have to have a business degree if you want to start a business, and now you have so many eyes. it had so many colleges that have entrepreneurial programs, which I'm like I always get a chuckle out of cause. I'm like I didn't even go to college like german and not mention that you know, but I think it's just good to show that

You can find success and have success, no matter who you are, whether you went to college and go to college graduate highschool did graduated wherever you know so. I've I've just really drawn to that kind of like underdog like the person that each one expects you know to be successful in so I I read your highlight that, and there is good there too. and there's a lot of things that I am you know I am I get out, but showing like a peek behind the curtain, to people that it's not I mean we, I think any entrepreneur who's. Listening to this knows it's not easy. Of course it's not easy. I feel like I just want to talk about and highlight more of the hard stuff than just the good stuff

if you know cause it's, it's completely a mixed bag, not one or the other. It's usually like one minute to one minute like you're like oh, this was amazing and then you're like the whole thing's falling apart. You know, I mean it's literally like that crazy, so my mission with the book was like to highlight both like it. It's really amazing and it's the greatest journey and is also incredibly hard and taxing and like don't realize how much is going to change your life, and I don't think that's good that you don't know You know a little bit like the ignorance is bliss mentality because like the less, even know about what you're getting yours alvin do anything, is that how mindset of like a view can accept you, don't know what you don't know you go into things a little like not is free. yeah. You know we're in the book you go into in detail, give us a snapshot for everyone, who's. Listening of what your life looks like when

I even thought about starting this, because that will give us a picture of this underdog unlikely entrepreneurs. Yeah, I mean you know. I got married to my first husband when I was twenty six. I moved to new york city when I was eighteen, because I didn't want to go to college and I was like I'm going to move to new york city. I feel like that will be good college. and that's what I did and I can I jumped around from job to job and I would eventually got a beauty, school and intel florida than back to new york and and then married and moved to allay and had to babies and was like thought I had hit the jackpot, like I loved being able to be a stay at home mom. I really felt so blessed and lucky that I got to be home with my boys and I was home for, like you know about five years, before I started dry bar- and that was such an amazing time, but I did get that each to get back out there and are doing something for myself which was really just like a feeling that I had. I mean I really wanted to have kids and I really wanted to be a stay at home. Mom and part of me thought I'd, get really involved in the school

like that and as a kind of approach sounds like no, I don't think I wanted do that and not there's no right or wrong right. It's just wasn't for me, and I've always really trusted my gut and my feeling and I and I I stay very close into what feels right and I and after staying home with my kids, it was about they were about to enforce I started dry bar in about a year before we started drive. I got that kind of each to do something, and I said a mobile blow up business, which was again just like way to get out of the house for a few hours, get away from my kids, who I loved love loved the whole thing, but just wanted show me for myself and I knew having done hair for so many years- that I could do that pre easily. I also either had this like intuition on that that if I were to only charge forty dollars, which was like oh two, twenties, super easy I'll come over by your baby sleeping. That was it that maybe that

be fulfilling for me to get out of the house talk to adults, I mean that's. The other thing is like when you have two little kids and you go to the park all day and your your in like kid ville all day. I just I wanted a little bit of a break from that, and not just from my husband. So I started this and it was so perfect at the time- and I remember telling people about your member whose amuse fifteen years ago, but it feels like yesterday those like ice? Greater love, this, like I'm, getting out into the world of his great way for me to meet other women, and I would it also informed a lot of the things that we would eventually insulin drive our like not doing someone's hair in front of a mere x. I was doing their hair in their living room, and so it was just perfect at the time. I wasn't really making any money, but I didn't I never been like driven by money. So I was like I'm just happy to do that I make a little extra cash. I go and do this thing that I really love doing. I get to talk to these amazing women and it was kind of like wildfire. I you know

would tell their friends and in their friend group, and so it was growing grow which, which is events Why drive our came to be because I was getting so busy operating this mobile business by myself tat I was like. I think I need to start having them come to me and said it may come to them and that's really how drivers born, but I was just this like one show driving my knees like around allay with their like a duffel bag. Full of tools and hairs ran you now it's funny, because it's like Remember it so well, like good, could have never guessed a return into the life that I have. I may not. In a million years I was just happy to big data that up for a couple hours. You know sharing data. You probably had to show that seven out I like it. I wanted you to because I just to me, I'm hoping that so many people are listening and watching going it's me highly right. Click on one who, like I love my family, but I I want to do something I have this in saying that I have something inside of me, I don't know what it quite is yeah by them.

something on the side of my friends all tell each other that I'm good at it and yeah. I think I could build something, but I'm not sure, like air. What was it that made? You feel this is real and it could be bigger verses actually up. This is great and it, fulfils my needs of getting out the house and giving and a little bit of extra cash is what you could argue that already felt like success tone. I can be success for a lot of people. What was it for you? That said? No, this should the bigger I can be bigger and I want it to be bigger, yeah yeah. Well, it's funny how and I'm sure you've experienced this too when you're doing something, and it feels really right and then there's like these rumblings and this like inner knowing of you're like wait a second it might be onto something here, and that's really how I started to feel because realize. I was saying no more than I was saying. Yes and I was like you know aren't you my head going like I'm getting so many calls, and I was pretty good at what I was doing, and so I was leg. There's gotta be something else

and ended the time my kids were really let all an image, my mom who pathways eight years ago now, but she was wasted. her everywhere, remove like an apartment down the street. She love being near. My kids in Sudan is really helpful and she was in our lives and our we're being like. I, I wonder what would happen if we had a location, one location in know I my mom who could help, I could get my kids after you know: priest, will like around three or four. I think I could still make this work and an again still thinking pretty small. You know that, like let me just go from like the next step, from going to like opening a store and it, and it was so exciting. You know- and it was just like I tell you of this all the time that you know chasing the money like I mean maybe that work, sometimes in my experience most businesses that I know of like it's like you're chasing something that you love and I never. I never thought about selling the business. I never thought about making a ton of money. I was like

thought about money. We do I mean for years that and take much money as a salary from drive our I just love did. You know- and I am telling you you know there's when you love your passion, like the thing that you it's and you get to do. every day. You know it's like. I just thought like this is the coolest thing ever and I couldn't believe like you don't we first open driver in so many people were coming and and and an ego again. It was like it just felt so men to be because this mobile visit, but I had built and these women that I had come to know in allay, and some of them were like I mean it's allay, you know it's like producers and actors and celebrities If you know I was a little thrust into that world And- and you know beyond, like the celebrity just you know, there was just so many women who were really connected and when I started talking to my clients, which by the way were the first people I talked to you about driver. I was like what do you think of this idea and they're like

I got the best idea ever, but how do you make it work and there is like certainly naysayers, but it was such a cool, exciting opportunity and to have women like being then you should totally do this and we open efforts store and it was so busy and crazy, and I- and I just will I loved every sir, now that you know I couldn't get enough of it. God surgery. I love that I want to pull from it for our listeners, so suddenly ali that stands out to me, is this idea of shoes taking baby steps? He was just about the next step. It wasn't like I've world domination. A million dollar idea hundred medea wasn't like crazy thought process. It was like I do something makes me happy kinds, a happy, let's get a store and I think Sometimes we gotta go from well, I have a really good idea. It should be a minute Allah, business, a billion dollar business or whatever it may be, and we don't get that next step rights. That's one thing I want to share. The second thing that really stood out in what you said. Is you asked the people you are serving your clients,

for what they thought of the idea of a lot of us. Ask our friends. We ask our family, we asked people around us who don't actually know how skilled we are at this thing right and we are asking the people who are actually going to be opportune alliance, and so the fact that you are asking them- and they were saying- oh I'd- turn up there. Oh I'd recommend all my friends right, wherein that's a much better purse into two, when you sharing a new idea. What's the difference alley because you ve talked about now and in the book you talk about this idea that you ve always been pretty decisive but more deeply. When you go into air and- and I know you have a deal bad side to you and when you think about things like intention and intuition and instinct in you said I always knew like I was. It was listening for that in a voice. What is the difference between intuition and delusion? If you had to think about how you notice the difference?

what would that be for you, I think intuition is like versus delusion cause. I feel like I'm work, which is irene. That's growth. Figures like delusion is like something to me in this house for me as like something that's like you know. It's a delusional view back. That of drybar would have been like we're going to grow this thing to one hundred and fifty locations and we're going to sell it for two hundred and fifty five million dollars, although he did say, or and then I thought we would have it but not early like in a year- and I was like, I think, we're gonna sell the visit for two hundred and fifty million. In that crazy, I mean it, like manifested that if you had a good what you're saying about baby saps it's like, is we're doing yourself they serve. As some of you know, moving in there's like either in a delusional path. I think I would say you know verses like saying,

close in- and you know I have gotten very into spirituality in the last few years and one of my very best friends and- and I talk about her in the book and amos pat page- and I always am writing her spiritual coattails cause she's, always in talisman some retreat, and you know I'm just kind of like trying to pick it up or what she's doing in, and she always says to me stay close it. you know, and- and you have to really think about that and like what that means- and it's like, oh for me, anyways, it means like pay, really close attention and I've really started to think about that. More and more especially having had a you know rough couple of months recently, it's like how does this make I feel in the moment, and I dont think I ever could have articulated that's the way I can now and I think we get older, we rise there. We go through more things. We read more books. We do all the things I it's a lot more now I do all that stuff now in an apparently close attention, I dont think I did the way I do now back then but I think I had it instincts. Surely in me I just didn't had a vague pick up on it. You know we're like now I can I can almost like. I can read something

have a thought and like immediately get a ping in my body of leg. No, this is not feel good or get a like. Oh yeah, this those really goods fascinating ended and the thing is- and I'm sure you be who you are would agree. This is like, if you get really quiet and you pay attention that stuff, it's pretty clear. You know, I have definitely been known to purposely ignore red flags in situations which- add me into do some bad situations in its is really funny the awareness that we get as we get older and wiser and makes mistakes. We learn from them, and so I guess you know delusion is like I think delusion is maybe ignoring red flags. You know it's like no, no, it's! heavy fines. Besides the fact that, like you know it's not but you're gonna, it's like, what what are you doing? Why you not listening? I heard something am bernay brown said. I'm sure she's been on,

show she has to have her either she's amazing and she was really there for me in my first divorce, which is crazy, but she- and I just saw something recently where she was like every every once in a while- the universe taps you are, we not every once in a while when you get to mid age, just like taps you on the shoulder and it's like you can't run anymore and I was like. Is she talking to me? You know and it, but it was a it's a fascinating thing cause I think at some point in our lives and it seems to me like it's more life. You get that tap. or like yeah, I added I gotta, be really like. I had to pay attention towards happening again you can't get away with it anymore. You, I think as weary, when we're younger, we can know why that then I think we were just ignoring the red flags and thinking it can just all worked out and I'm such a leg. It all worked out kind of guy anyways, which I think is true and now I'm I've come to realise that those mistakes in those red flag

the things that we don't pay attention to when we should actually are really great gifts, not in the moment in the moment, you're like why, as is happening to me, but then afterwards, you like oh, I needed to learn this in em again my front page choice says it's the medicine I should like it if this is the medicine that unita mike, it's always about the medicine out. What is really true? Absolutely that you are doing that to experiment with me injurious in dili, as I will take a larger taken. I want to pick out some moments from your book because I love some of the courts in your book and things that stuck with me and so I'm want to start with this because it really, you know, enhances the conversation we're having right now about your work, and you says this is page eight entrepreneurs. Today's face different jeez, more noise, more competition, etc. It still always starts with. you, your idea, your skill set your purpose in your got instinct and you say,

what is the thing that you just can't stop thinking about which I loved. I love that language to it, but you talk a lot about this. Finding your skill says an entrepreneur, and I think they could be nothing more true about well then that, like I'm, I'm so aligned with you and I think often we're doing things we're passionate about that we're not skilled at or if we are passionate, we haven't taught that we need to be skilled at it and obviously you could be doing the opposite way. You do your daddy and our passionate about shore and that's what a job is pretty much yeah. But how do people discover what this yoda, because what I found is that most of us, when we skilled at some Then we d value as a skill, because it so easy to us and we see some now with another skill, and you talk about this a lot in the book about don't become someone else's story, don't chase and other entrepreneur don't try, and I may, but we look at some So, for example, people look at me and be like. Oh

You're really good at x y see. But then, if I not aware of that skills. Ob like no nobler you're, really good at a b c, and then we play this kind of tiger like no, I don't have your skills, but we rarely single norm actually really good at because we devalue what we find easy yeah answer right. I think it was really highlighted in in my business with my my brother and my first husband cam, who can was the creative genius behind driver and my brother was like more the behind the scene, business side of it, and I was like hairstyles and like the experience and everybody always asses, like is a really hard to work with your brother, who now ex husband and that's not why we got divorced and whatever, but I was like no, it was great because we were all very. we're on what we did and what we did well and what our highest and best use was. I had that conversation so many times they still. I still go back to that. What's my highest and best use always in life, because I think it's like

really like think about it, you know, and we have really almost no conflict and if we ever- and we all talked about all things together, but there was ever like a questionable thing. It. Whoever would it was like whose lay that wise, you know- and that was we are all very open. it. Would that, and I think, when you do run into problems with business partners is often because you guys think you have the same skill set and then that's such a it's like five year olds playing soccer everybody's kicking the ball. It doesn't work, you know, so I feel like it is it's it's. The old cliche like it doesn't feel like work if you're doing something you love, which I know has been said a million times but like it is so true and and- and I think it's like almost feels too easy to your points where people are like I've got a challenge myself Well, of course, like you do, and you want to keep challenging yourself, but like what a gift in life to like be able to do what you love to do- and I think I think there's this misconception that, like you can do that in our it's like enough for me,

When I tell my parents, I wanted to go to beauty school. There were like a fish. you know and like very like looked their nose down on it like you, wanna be a hairstylist and they also had a group in south florida, and my parents had were entrepreneurs which definitely informed a lot of my er who I became, but they had this like old lady clothing store, and it was right next to this, like one lady hair salon in there and they think in their mind, they're like you want to work there, and I was like no I'm going to move to new york city md. real. Unlike fascism. I had these grand ideas. I didn't have dry bar at the time you know, but it was like that's what I've loved like. I up opens up lord, I have naturally earlier my isn't massive and frizzy all the time, and I was just fascinated by hair and loved tears, but I loved the apple, and so it took me a I would take me many years to finally like get the courage to say like when my friends we're going to college and they were studying whatever, and I was always like. How do you guys know it? You wanna do very confused by that whole notion of olive and majors, and all that, and I just

his hair- and that was the thing that I really loved and it would you know- I talked about it in the book that it took me a while to to figure out again it comes back to like being close in, like I always loved hair. I would spend hours in the bathroom in highschool. I was just so. I worked at a hair salon as a receptionist, whereas in high school, because I wanted to get free books, because I loved being around hairstyle is announcing. This is the thing that I love and I ignored it so many years. You know, and it's like to be able to tap into that thing and an you can't find a person theirs nobody. You can me and say: what do you really love to do and they may not tell you because their embarrassed or they don't do it as a job, because they, like my parents when improve my husband, one approved. Whoever won't think it's a good idea, parents did not think it was a good idea to go to beauty school, but I had enough like chutzpah to be like I hear you, but it's what I want do you know, and I had no idea was gonna turn into like this beautiful life than it did for me, but I was just like stay

they focus, and I talk about that- a lotta entrepreneurs, mentoring, it's like don't do shut. All that out, you know, listen to. What really feels like is is good. For you not when everybody else of around you wants in It's almost like that question. That's come from what you're saying is: what's that sure, ignoring the insight. What's that idea that you keep putting away because you, like that's ridiculous, that stupid and you ve heard that voice before way. Someone look to you win because you actually share your intention. Yeah you're excitement and I won t like that's no real every and by the way, people too that a driver because it me, like I said it was in it, was in the middle of a recession and people are like. How do you make this concept work? It's like? starting at thirty five dollars a blow out and was like you have to do a lot on a blow out to make that business work, and I was like you know, but I think we can do it and I did like I literally not not great at math, but I was like I think, if we can do like.

Oh ten blowouts an hour were open. You know ten hours that, like I think, it'll work. You know, and I remember my brother started like pretty an actual spreadsheet together and running the numbers. It was like yeah. If we do thirty or forty blow out today, we'll have a nice business, you know and we we never did that little. We always did like seventy eighty one hundred blow. I'd say which was just bananas, but it was like people were the ones who put it in my head that, like maybe maybe this idea doesn't work, I mean so many people and then we started raising, money- and you know that's a whole other conversation of like raising money would like walking into these rooms with men in suits. Like did not understand the concept of dr are like whites. You know like how does it's working just didn't believe in it, so many people didn't believe in it and it did seem like a tough. You know. How do you make this? were like on a large scale. Is there enough women who to do this, as is the price of the price, was really low, like margins are really thin. How does it work? And you know I just like I'm just telling you I really

you know from a got level, know that this is gonna work and then you're, like oh shit, is better work in our budget It is at an end. I always felt leg. There was much on the line for sure- and that's not a small thing by and I remember when I started cutting hair, and I mean when you sign, hair and you have really sharp scissors in your hand, it is very scary, unlike- and you know it so funny like the very first heroin overdressed, most or all my god alone, or anyone allows the waters. Men there is even a mamma says, will use the online. No, no, no you're well, first erika I ever did in beauty school. I cut someone's ear and I follow is gonna die in the ears bleed so much and I I don't use it caught someone's ear, how much just like even just a little net, but I mean it was it was ever so traumas eyes aiming for them, but for me and also give you so you do. We like to dollar haircuts in three years, you know? I still have like nightmares about that, because it was like the worst thing that can happen, but beside backwards,

doubling of ever died. When I was a traumatizing for me, but I always felt like the end of the day when I was on the floor, cutting it when I was doing all that, and you know it. more we're starting drivers like no one's gonna die, this business isn't work like, which is like the worst possible outcome. It's like we're. Not doing surgery we're. Not we aren't you know and an eye, and I always like to comfort him out cause. I was like you there's always a chance ever gonna lose money. In my case it was a really be my brother's money. In my my my It has been at the time and I put in our life savings, which wasn't really that much but a lot to us at the time, and you know I like it's, going to really suck and we're going to lose money, but we're like we're really smart, capable people, and if this idea doesn't work like we'll figure something else out, and I think that that mindset of, like you gotta just like put it on the line is like it is really why I think I've been successful as like not holding anything to

tightly of like yeah. I really hope this works and I really think this is gonna work, but if it doesn't like we're all going to be okay, you know- and I think that's like you know- I think, Well, a lot of entrepreneurs. I talk to are like I have to have this much money saved and I have to do this and I have to do this and I just thought I was like yeah prepare for sure, but like at somebody, you're gonna have to just jump and hope for the best yeah there is. There is a moment for that lie yeah. I wanna dive into a couple of things here that you've mentioned that I think really stood out and you talk they moved by this bay offline. Is this idea of paid studying? You say if you feel like an him foster embrace it yeah and I feel, like imposter syndromes, been something that a lot of people are talking about here. I think it something that there are even more people than feeling than a talking about it and it seems to be overcome bring feeling whenever you're in a new room or a new league or a new zone when you say embrace it. What does that mean

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going to my special url prolong life. Don't come forward. Slash J, go now to prolong life, don't come forward slashed J! I think to your point of people talking about it a lot. They talk about it like it's a bad thing and I think I think of it as a good thing, if you're embarking on a position in a new job or your starting, a company or whatever you're doing that's new to you, like that's amazing, like your starting something new york you're. Taking that leap of faith, your inner, putting yourself in a situation that you ve not been in an that's really gary for sure, but it's also really exciting and exhilarating in a major growing in your in this next new phase in your life, and so this negative association with impostor syndrome, as if it's like a bad thing It's definitely happened to me, but I only think maybe cause I never had any real formal training in anything other than hair, where I would start a job- and I was like oh no, I'm underqualified for this job, but I'm going to live

figure it out and I and I would you know- and I guess that was part of it. Well, yes, I am an impostor technically I dont know how to do this job you better, believe, I'm going to figure it out and do it well and it's no different with entrepreneurship. I mean when we started drybar. I had never like been in charge of that many people. I'd never managed. Have a salon like it never my parents did they watch them, and I worked for owners of hair salons and I ve been a style is four years that I have a lot of the things that I think I need had by a never. actually done it, and so I was learning it as I went, which was scary but also amazing, and I also think when you come in again nothing I could have articulated them, but I term I think, were hearing more and more now is this: like lord begins, mindset. You know when I had that when I was when we are starting driver, because I was quite literally a beginner and running a business, and I made a lot of mistakes and I had to figure out a lot of things and that's that's also. The beauty of this book is that I feel, like I got an education

in this. I learned I got like a you know, a business degree while I was running a business because I was having to figure all these things out and I made tons of wrong decisions and bad choices. I also think I felt it's not necessarily imposter syndrome, but I think I felt this like immense pressure, because I was the boss, like I had to know the answers- and I d, like you, came to me and asked me a question about the business to be like. Well, here's what I think, even It wasn't always right, it was just like me. And I used to think that that was leg o uses the boston you just you. U buck stops with union. and now I feel like an and how I how I approached the that question now is like what a youth inking, which is not something I would have said and that's like. I think that was all ego cause I was like. Oh, I feel this pressure like I'm supposed to know the answer, because I'm sitting where I'm sitting in this company and now I'm like Will you think about that? Many people like where you now and I'm a guy

I actually dont, know the answer, but I'd love to hear why what you think, but I I didn't have enough, like you know I was I was to focus on like feeling like I had to be it may be that does go back to investors had, I felt like I needed to know all the answers, because I was the boss and this is my company, but where- now a leg, there's so much frida in saying I don't know you know like. Let's talk about a hen any and then the culture that you create and accompany when you're like the kind of boss. That's like now the know it all and people aren't afraid to be. Like hey jay, you know, I actually think that if we tried this this and that like we do, I'm sure people do that in your company like when someone comes up to you and they're like I actually think if we try blah blah blah your response is like no, you know their net there, never having dinner with somebody again. But if your responses, like that's interesting, You know you may not always take it, but that beginners that feels to me like a beginner's mindset of like I'm open to other ways of, and- and I think that there's a part of I know, there's a part of me that gets a little like you know, and it's also like

I feel like I know best and we go into r r ego of like no, but I know what I'm doing help but but embracing with somebody else is bringing to you, I think, is really powerful and not something that took me a long time to get. sure, but with your those there's something that you reminded me when you talk about his on page fifty two, you saying being opened a feedback professional- is a practice, a learned intention to stop taking the information Then maybe gonna walk takes him deep, breaths and come back over the hearing what someone else is feeling and and ass. You what's been the best and most memorable piece of feedback that you gained on your professional journey, that's stuck with you, where maybe even in the moment, it was so painful to hear me out that new now look back and go, I believe that while I think thinking a feedback as a gift,

which I learned pretty early on, and I remember you know somebody in our company who said it I heard her say at once, and I was like wow, that's so profound, because if you can be oh ben too, what someone is telling you which is so hard, and it is painful and- and you know I remember my brother saying to me- I'm like before scared of you and as I why you know, just no awareness on my part lay outside. You're talking about you, what are you talking about? What you may leave our scared of you like, and he was like. Bobbing, has yeah. I was I, but when the moment I really was taken aback by it, and I was like I'm so nice. What do you mean and he was like? Well, you know you walk in the stores and you lose your mind and I was like I do that because I'm so passion you know, and I was covering up with, like I'm so passionate and I want things to be perfect. And I did, but I

I would learn over time that that walking in and like you know, I would I would you could see it all over my face cause. I was like. Why are the floorboards dirty wise music. Not up. Why did this personal agreed that way? Well, I just for me, it was like there was like sensory overload of everything that was wrong, which I think is a blessing curse, kiss your like. Well, I am the person this is my baby, like I am the person who has to be the one that's like this is not working in and we to fix says, but I also would learn that I knew I people were excited when I would come in the store and they wanted to tell me the good things and I did search to perpetuate this reputation of lake. Always come and watch out in the party was like, I think, maybe that's a good thing, but then I was like no it's it's not an and I would learn eventually to you know like I would take notes, and I would, then, like you, know not like ruin everybody's day, when I would come into store.

and I had to learn that the hard way, but it really did take my brother, probably one of the only few people in our company who felt comfortable enough to say to me because he wasn't scared of me. You know he'd be like people are scared of you and I again at first I was very defensive and I told him he was wrong and you know I was also my big brother, but it really like sunk in and I was like man. I don't want that. I don't want people to be scared of me. I want people to be able to talk to me. I don't want people to feel like they have to protect me either, which was also another thing that drove me crazy and still does to this day. Like I don't know- and I'm sure you agree with this- like you- don't want to be surrounded by yes, people like please no tell me Tell me the true tell me what people are saying I wanna know people are thinking. If I, if I can't ascertain that on my own, you know. So if you have people around you who are willing to give you like the feedback, it's like you're only going to be better for it. You know it it stings in the moment, and it still does like you know. Sometimes someone will tell me something and I'll be like oh gosh like. I can't believe that and then

if you're open to it and then you you, then now you have the awareness about it and and I'll tell you I make. I don't think you have children right unit for me of his sixteen and eighteen year old, two boys and like talk about honesty, I mean I'm really really close to my kids, but they will tell me things like that are very hard to hear and it is. It is a real practice, a mental exercise for me to what you do and my kids used to say to me like cause. I cause during the drive our air when I was like yes, a little scary in my my kids would even say to me, like we don't know what version you're going to have you are going to get.

like oh yeah, yeah and I was like, but I know that now and now, like the powers in my control like I can be like okay and it literally just happened. I was with my son- is at denison university in ohio, he's playing football and we went out to see him and this you know he he like came off the field. You know he was like he didn't really want to talk about some of the stuff that we wanna talk about, and my younger son said to me like just give him a minute mom and I was like what he's like just give him a minute and I was like alright, you know cause it as mom and anybody listening to this who's, a mom you're like when your kid isn't like perfect and happy you're like what's wrong. What's wrong, what's wrong, how can I fix it for good idea to like we'd get a we go into that like mama bear protective mode, and my younger son looked at me and he's like mom give him a minute, and I I did get defensive with him for a second, and I was like what are you talking about you know and he's like you know

I was like you re, you know, and I was like ok and I thanked him. You know and I backed up- and I was like when he's ready to talk to me about it. He'll talk to me about it and sure enough. He didn't couple hours later taught he opened up and it was like such a a lesson in reminder of like some. As you know, you need to give people's ways and changes have what you want when you wanted and- and that's been a really hard lesson for me, I think it's also leg being at the at the helm of a company and and having this like men, ality of like I can do and say whatever I want them: the bars of value and do whatever that bleeds. Answer your real life, which I you know my kids- are kind of a living example of that of like I used to savings to my kids like I've been. And longer than you guys, I just know, and there like you, don't always now mom, you know, and it's like you know, you see, your kids are like talk about mirrors in and maybe they all of that awareness, I think, has been such a gift to men and that

You can get that anywhere in your life, from your best friend from your spouse. From someone who works for you are with you, it's like, if you ask she genuinely they're going to tell you and like what a gift and like get that awareness, you know, and it does sting for a second and then you're like oh okay, I'm going to take that and be better. My best friend tells me stuff too. You know it's like. Ah thank you. You know that it requires the beginner's mindset that humility to accept and receiver on a monday or my wife does with me all the time. It's so much easier to defend yourself of two mosque yourself to shield yourself in a false sense here and what you don't realize is every time you pretend to shield yourself from good feedback you just setting itself up for downfall again and again, and the ego is so well equipped to keep drawing the sword and-

It's crazy is cutting down everything in its way and it's perfect added, because that's its job yeah, but it's not protection. It's actually you or resilience is getting thinner and dinner and gas getting weaker, weaker weak. I wanted to ask you because your shifting into that You know that I love how honest you are about the kind of feedback you get from kids. I think people often talk about you, know my kids, I'm not cool anymore? I get whatever that kind of stuff like that. Isn't sting but hearing this kind of stuff. Do you think it's because you you'd have never take on this in your book like do think it's possible to be really materially successful and have a happy marriage, but got those two things possible. My very first marriage, which was like sixteen years did it didn't work not because of the business, and I think that

Like I joke a lot that leg verlag in our is is, it must have been hard to worry. There has been, as I gave, a divorce you know, but let's not really mean. Oh, it's a joke which of course, is like a deflection, but but more true was that, like we probably never should have got married in the first place, a guy we met, we were twenty six and I am pretty sure I put this in the book and he tried to call the wedding off a month before the wedding, and I like- oh no, we are not doing that like and he had some real good reasons for act. Like you know, the relationship was really hot and heavy in the beginning, it had faded quite a bit like the intimacy, wasn't really there, but we are best friends and I would later learn that, like my parents had that marriage, which they ended up getting divorced too- and I I think I definitely emulated my parents' marriage, which is just wild when you read all that about how we do that cause. I didn't see it at all.

Ah, but you know we, we had kids very quickly, which I really want it. I was very like I'm very driven event and I was like I want children, and so we had kids year after we got married and then you know they said we started the business stryver when my kids were three and five it was like boom boom boom in I felt like a third baby in any guenaud cameras during all the creative and I was doing all the other seven. So you know we're on this path and and I knew all along and so did he, even though he didn't want to admit it that, like this wasn't like this can't be it. This can't be like what it's supposed to be, but you know we didn't want to like disrupt our lives and we didn't. You know it's just like it's a lot to get divorced and I didn't want to be a divorced person, and I liked the facade that I had these two really cute boys with great hair and this amazing husband and he was like the. brainchild of the creative driver, which is amazing. I loved the way the package locked, but I knew- it, wasn't right. You know the material success I didn't. I

We want to shatter the whole image you know and obviously like I've. You know come to realise that like ie, just you, you have you in that the message truth of it all and then it was then I made the really hard decision to end the marriage and then my son who's, now eighteen and doing really well at denison. He went into rehab because he started doing drugs, there's a whole chapter about that, and just my life completely unraveled, you know and and and to your question it was like I on this hand, I had all this success and I was like doing all this cool stuff and, like anybody who didn't know me, it was like I was a guest on shark tank like coolest thing ever

I was like an ink magazine. The cover image, just like all these really cool things were happening and you'd. Look at my life like wow, what a cool life she's god and she then all this success and I was being you know, praised and it was great. But then my life was falling apart, you know, and and so no I didn't, I wasn't able to like hold both and then I come out of your grant after about two years, like a really worked, all the treatment we put grant through and he he really came out on top and he really did the work and he's such a. I mean he ended up in a couple of different programs. One of them was an outdoor wilderness program in utah, which I actually think every human should probably have to go through. We went to visit him once and he used like making fire out of, like you know, two sticks and he was like learned how to mean the thing. It was amazing and I was like this is really profound and and he really

im out such a better person on the other side and it it also brought me and my ex together, because we had to like do group fam, a group therapy and family there and all the things in it in it. It was also one of those things that I I actually thought might kill me cause. It was so painful, but it actually was a blessing in disguise means that the inside and the person that grant turned into and the other side of that is just remarkable, and it brought me and my ex back together as friends like we ve learned how to co parent, because of all that- and even my younger son really been eighty is all in such an amazing bussing. At the time I wouldn't have ever been asked for that. You know, and so it was like the both end in the odds and do a duality of what what I was living and then I came out of that situation. You know and rushed back into another relationship that was like now now looking for like real love, because I didn't feel like I had it the way I wanted it may first marriage than I jump into that. You know it

that time we were like it was right before them. I met him like five months before the pandemic and I was already kind of like transitioning. Drybar in a lot of ways, because the company was so big and we had so many people running it now and what I was doing on a day to day basis. Wasn't really there anymore and- and now I was like you know, just looking for love, like, and then I found it and I was like. Oh. I think this is what it's supposed to be an, and I was eta madly in love with this man- and I wasn't paintings anything else- you know and any other red flags that were there than I now really see you were there, and so I again to your question, which is such a good one like I did, I couldn't hold both you know was I now I was like stepping away from driver and now is stepping into just love, and I lost completely lost myself on that side. You know it was like a lost myself.

in the drive our world and put my love life and even my kids, a little bit on hold, and now I was in the other side of it were madly in love, and I lost the the other side of my own personal purpose. You know, and I kind of a mesh into his world- and I was like my cod and now, as you know, were we're going through divorce and I could never have imagined that would happen, and but on the on the other side of it. I'm like oh yeah, you know it's like what I haven't learned yet, which I'm hoping I get now is that you know I have to keep myself intact like what do I love and what do I want to be doing an? Can I love somebody else. While I'm in that place cause, I would throw everything else out the window was like when I was building dry bar was only drive our when I was like falling in love with this new man. It was only him and I lost, myself and like he was building a business and he was really busy and he had little kids in whatever in so. I threw myself

into his world and like kind of forgot about myself and even now, oh, it hasn't been that long. But I'm like coming back into my own and I'm like this book and I have all these projects and I'm like. Oh I'm getting back to myself and I would like to have loved to but like also you know, and I so to eat such a good question. I love that you asked it because I I haven't been able to find it. Yeah I get it now now like anxious like try it. you know and be. Can I be in love madly in love? I have the right kind of love with a person and myself and when I'm doing I haven't They have to figure that out here, and I think you know I think a lot of us. It falls one of those things in evidence if fall by the. I guess I dunno I dunno how in other people's lives are like you know, I I just you know it's funny. I was talking to a couple recently I and they were the the wife said something like you know. Our marriage is good enough and I was like ooh, you know and, and she said

her husband and the husband was like you know, and I was like ooh that place if you aren't there, but it is interesting and it's like we're, how do you do that amount of you guys I mean the first thing is that funding thing about any relationship, whether its business will marriage. Is that days, two minds and as we know all mind is always changing and growing and evolving. Now. Imagine that times too are they changing at the same time in the same way? Tat? No other. having the same tore at the same time every day? Now they have the same dreams and aspirations. Everyday. No answer but we should be more surprised when people get together and stayed together than when people separate and move a paw. It's actually remit a couple that anyone could see. and they live with them. The person for a long amount of time than it is that people find it hard

to stay- I may last statement in and of itself makes me feel so good because it's like we had this shame and you want to be divorced once and now I'm heading into diverse ways, and I really I think a lot of my sadness and grief when this first happened was because I was like embarrass in I was late wars. I why it's like this. Second, marriage, I'm getting diverse, like least yet in just all they. Lifelong would aim was wrong with me, but it's such a, which is why I really love- and I hope, people who are listening to that like feel that too, because and I I was telling you before, like I eat a lot of people who now reach out to me and are like I'm really unhappy in my marriage. Should I leave my husband and I might I don't know, don't ask me, but like it's a good thing to ask your soldier. You know- and I had I do think you're right. It's like we grow and change and and in my case I don't think we were having the right conversations enough does like and we ignored a lot of things granted. It was like a really weird time in our relations

I got very fast track because of covert and like we moved in together after five months, I don't know that we would have done that. Had kovac, not thrust this like very crazy change into all of our lives, and you know I think it all happened. The way it was supposed to, but it is a like how we're always growing and changing, and how do you do that together those two going to dogs romans that I think can help people with what we're talking about, not as solutions but as and it's what you just said. If you know I'm the right conversations with yourself and if you're not having the right conversations with that person, yeah everything's gonna feel, like a surprise, yeah and everything's, going to kind of b a random event, yeah and all you can do you can't make someone stay with you and you can't make something work. All you can actually do is track where you're getting closer or moving further apart. That's actually, all you can do is track and monitor because, like I said so, much is changing all the time, and so all you can do is track change. You can't force a result,

or a direction yeah generally track change and try and move closer together, move upon it's what you say they're. Getting when we think about the word balance. If you think about it, we all have a finite number of hours. We have a finite number of resources and we have a finer number of amount of energy So if you had a hundred percent- and you said you ve got yourself- you got your partner, you got your work, you got you kids and then you have a family and you- twenty percent into each of those. Now you're gonna get twenty percent result on each of those. That's a balanced life If we look at it in that way, so it doesn't, it doesn't work or it may work for someone, but back the idea than being ok. Well now you got like eighty, in return on your career, which means eighty percent of EU energy was going into the workplace, which means then five. and was going to all the others. What you ve got a huge agents. That was me and the driver area I and and and so when we look at that, we just go well. How can any human ever achieve re perfection? Any human

bidding me, including everyone with soul, one is so limited that our ability to make everything and everyone happy and successful is mathematically impulse. serve its mathematically impossible. Let's stop pretend in that we're able to nail every part of- and let's be honest and say, I'm focusing on- this. In this era of this phase or dismantle this year, that naturally mean I can't focus. these three areas and I think but who stay together or adapt or whatever in a healthy way our people we found a way of saying I understand what you're focusing on and I get that I respect it, but guess what? When your back and you have time, I may be focusing on something else and driving, anyone is navigating their relationship in a healthier way. There's no better off but in a way that we would consider healthier is only because to be

by communicating, as you said enough with the just having, conversely kittens doesn't mean, there's a perfect standard or there is complete intimacy at all times or their having the best. You know sexually. it was at all times, while everything else is going on late, it's not possible mathematically, impossible, yeah, yeah, and it's so interesting too, because I think you don't want your avoiding dealing with something that you know is there. It's, like you said, you're, not always going to be on the same page you're not going to you're going to grow differently and whatever- and it's like you know. In our case it was like we weren't you have to again. Not I don't mean to be like a broken record, but going back to like you're in that voice of lake for you know. For me. I knew there were things that were right and I think now- and you know I work with airbus and coach in my life

people you know cause I love getting. Is I love getting as much I mean now? I'm like I love the feedback. Give me all the feedback like. I really want to hear as many perspectives as I can and from people that, like I, really trust and admire, and, and you know one of the things that I was talking to my coach about. recently, it was like cause. I've. I've been trying to like put a bow on this to like make myself feel better about it, not working, and I've come to realize like if well I'm like. If we had had the conversation that we weren't having it if they get great, I mean you're shaking your head, because you know what I'm gonna say. What if we had talked about the thing, maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have worked like obviously nobody is. Nobody knows you know, and, and and he and I had that conversation and in the aftermath of all this like had we called out, you know one of the big things that wasn't working for us early on that we I did not want to call out because it would have proved potentially probably meant that the end of the relationship and we

want that you know, we were very like wrapped up in, like the excitement in the news in the last, in the chemistry and the passion and all the things that have in your brain. I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure, there's some signs are like what are routinely mobile divers, but So we weren't, we didn't, have this conversation and perhaps had we had it maybe would have shifted and we could have figured some that would have changed the directory of our relationship and it may be. It had work- and maybe you boot now, but we didn't even have the conversation in now and that and that's the thing it's like you have to have this honest conversations in work, and you know in business, in your personal life and if your avoiding ma it's gonna come back around like be sure of thy in, I always say their alike. There are for checking that I do with my wife regularly and so today. I tried oscar assemble one. What was your highlights the day or what was exciting today, which is about anyone? Any one can ask that very. simple every

equal month, I'll ask you know, there's something coming up that I can help you with like there's something you struggling I door? Some! That's on your mind. I need to be aware of or conscious of, every quarter I'll ask is this relationship going in the direction you want, or is it bringing the direction I've won if he is and what are we both willing yeah to do to put it in the right direction, yeah are you willing to do something in my hand every year, a simple one of like well, what your goal is listener what it? What are you pursuing this year and those four questions? Do or checking don't save our relations They do what I was saying earlier as they hope you track weather. On the same page, where you completely on another page and if you or even aware unconscious. In the reason you have to do days, though, should before tat, can you do yourself coming back to your point, Yeah, like checking with everyday going, must have what's my highlight today, checking myself every week my ongoing hey? What do I need help with this month? Who have I asked for that? Every court

is my life going in the direction that I wanted to go in and every eye. What am I pursuing like? If I'm not taking you never myself, and I'm not checking him that with my wife, then how can I no myself, and how can I know this human and I think the sumption that I know someone like I've, you know me and my wife have only been together for ten years, but it's all I know is that she's and constantly evolving growing human gesture she is over thirty, doesn't mean that she's fully formed and not on our now and again, my and just like yours, too growing up your sons a chain in growing. I think we assume that kids grow and adult stay the same year and will wait a minute. That's so untrue, leah and- and I think that's what I'm always trying to stop my mind from normalizing that, oh, I know her. Oh, I know how she's gonna, Ria, isn't it so it's such a like that fixed mindset and I'm so guilty of that because I'm like I want,

reading wrapped up in a pretty bow, I'm like a like things like really neat and clean and tidy like physically like. I just want to know, what's happening and, like you know, accepting and certainty and like life is completely uncertain and if you can surrender to that like, but I it's just- it's her if it is really hard to be like a game, and I go with the flow, and I read that who is it? Firstly, his daughter wrote a book called below water. Oh yes, mrs you me now has was like, and I I love, and I remember it because I feel it any like posters, Ellen in my house have like the thing that you just said, and all these things you're like. Oh yeah, you can't fight the current like you can't. You know you can't fight it and it's like, if you can, if you surrender to it and like you know and that the fact that we are always changing and growing in it, and I love that we set about tracking it and- and I think there was phase in our relationship when we were doing more of like check ins- and we probably had listened to something like this and were like? Oh, we should be checking in more and then eventually we stopped doing that.

Yeah you're like a man we lost, we lost our way, You know it's just so easy to do that and you know, and it really does like straddle the fence on business, impersonal, because I did it all the time and in dry bar error when I would, like you know, stop paying attention to what was going on people around me and stopped having you know or those conversations I really needed to be having and just like would get all like sulky. You know why why, when I was having this coverage, I was always causing my own suffering. You know, and it's like we just as humans- do that, which I you know, which I think is like the the self awareness piece it's like the things that we use to nurture ourselves like, we're listening to what we're watching what we're reading interview kind of, sometimes, unlike especially in the last few months, having gone through going through my divorce and being so sad and I'm like ingesting so many books, and so many things and I'm like okay, I've read it

I have done I'm good, but then I'm like no I'm not I gotta keep very I mean I gotta do at least a couple of things a day that like keep me on that spiritual path, you know- and it's like what's the word I'm looking for, I don't want to say it's like a job up oversight, parodi habit, you known daily practice daily rises, yeah, it's like it so important and so easily lose track of that, especially when, like some You get really excited or you meet somebody new in europe, which is exactly what I do like. Have you down like I got it, I m get only do than that of any more like. You know, I remembered and we're all that I want to thank you for being so like honest about it and so real and being so messy about it, because I think that's all of us right like that's what we are looking for a moral looking to have a perfect start in a perfect and annual looking to have like the perfect person and the perfect relationship with ourselves, and

yeah. None of that exists talk me through this because I have so many friends who, like you, would feel, shame and guilt for getting divorced, and so they never will, or I have a couple of friends that have kind of had the courage to get to the other side. but they now explains the judgment or they feel the shame that comes from other people's projection of it. What is the hardest thing about getting divorced like? What's the toughest part about it? I've been on both sides of it now in our the first of course, after sixteen years you know feeling like. I did the love that I wanted and intimacy. Then I want you wasn't there. So I was like is was funny cause I when I first left the marriage I was like you know like

we're on the go- and I was like dating really quickly and all of that and then very quickly. My thing happened with my son and then I realized that, like dating, wasn't so easy and now I'm a single mom and at the time my ex didn't really want to be talking to me, and so it was like my world spun out of control and I felt do you a bit of a depression- and I remember people telling me that like even though you're not in love with your ex husband anymore, he still held like a space and energy that is no longer there and it's like a death and I've for months and months and months. I refused to believe- I think it's it's not a death. Nobody died like. I took it very literally and I was a visa he's living would not allow my brain to like understand until I finally did, and it's like you know when you would like when the students ready, the teacher, appears mentality and I was like I'm sure, a lot people say to me, but it was like. I was on some with this guy who wrote a book called energy speaks if you've ever heard of it, and he was talking Energy and whatever and after the show I pull them, assign they like very

they told him was going on and I was and how like I was, you know coping with my divorce and I was in this depression and he was like listen your husband, even though you don't love like love him, I don't want to be with him. He still held an energy, that's gone, and that is a very big hole like black hole. Are you to fill in your life and she's, going to take some time which isn't rocket science and I'm sure other people set it to me it at that I was like, oh, my god when it hits it hits right, and so that. Change of life of like your whole life being one way and then it becoming another way and honour, in my case, like my son, going through rehab and not like very hard time so was all rolled into like just being hard, and I was really sad and

I and I was really struggling and you know, and then the identity stuff started to kind of creep into, and that was that was hard. I think from like more of an identity like a personal identity, standpoint was hard and like a rebuilding my life after so long, this divorce was was quite different. It felt just much more like heartbreak like I was heartbroken like just heartbroken and I'd never experienced that kind of heartbreak. I I I recognize now truly that it's it's for the best and- and I think for for for both of us for all of us is for the best, but it just hurts so bad that, like to experience heartbreak like that, where you're like, oh someone just put it really well, that like trauma, is the intersection of unexpected and overwhelming, and I think that's such a

simple way to understand trauma. It's like this thing you didn't see coming really and then the overwhelm of it like the boom. You know and that's kind of what it was for me. I was like I may never recover from this like that's how like devastating it was, then, I think of you know cause. I think I talked to you right around the time. It was happening and- and I was so sad I was like- I'm never going to be okay, you know, and I'm you know it's it and I'm okay, you know, and I've and I've when the fog starts to clear cause. It's like it's real muddy when you're in It- and you do I mean quite literally you're in fog. You can't see, and its depravity acknowledge analogy to me is like I was in so much fog around it. Like my ego, is all like bent out of shape, and I was you know, and I was worried like make he's we're gonna be mad at me and I was worried

the world was gonna, think and all this stuff, and then I was like now as the clouds and the fog started to clear, I'm like oh, no, this was not. Ultimately, the right king, you know, and maybe in some universe like had we have these conversations. Have you done this thing? The uh? Maybe it would have been right, but it just wasn't, and this was the way it all went down, and I realized that, like oh, this, there's a lot of lessons here and there's a lot of medicine and I've learned so much and I'm so grateful for it now. You know, like I'm, still coming out of the anger of it a little bit, but I am ultimately just really grateful for all the lessons that I've learned and I think I said this earlier- I like who I am on almost every level now more than I do then I ever it was a allotted, tough lessons. I had to learn- and I was looking at myself in this lenz- that I had not looked at myself through of light

why he made that decision and why he didn't want the marriage anymore, which is just the image. You can imagine you for years, often those- not for a second, if your wife is like, I want a divorce right now, you you would just be like its devastating. your you know and most of it, but then went in so I was like try. I've tried to now put myself in the very painful place of like why. Why didn't he want to be with me and ensure, like not not too good, the rapid hole like I'm a terrible version, and I'm not worthy. It's not that it's more of like. Let me see what what things were that I dont like about myself that I can now see through his eyes, and this is not a conversation with him. This is a conversation with me and how I perceived a lot of things and the way I acted in the I showed up a lot that I dont like you know that

like. Oh, I don't ever want to show up like that again and what a gift and what a lesson to like, be this better version of myself now so to answer your question, those were like the hardest things of it, but it is a little living proof that you can. You will get through it and everybody kept saying. Let me- and I would go grasp onto that like when people would say if you're going to be okay, it's going to. I promise you're going to be okay, and I would like hold onto that like thank you. I needed other people to say it to me cause I couldn't find it in myself. I could, I didn't believe it, but if enough people said it to me like I promise you and so many people said that to me I promise you you're going to be okay, it's you know it's it's a beautiful thing to have like a community of people around you. That will tell you that and that you and I'm like, are you sure, like you know and they're like? I know you know, and it's lofty, but it's true, you know so you know what I find so hope giving about

Our choices is that you turn towards people things, ideas that would help and support you and that's the hard part legged so yazzi and its natural and should not be judged tool. But it's easy for you to go off the rails and go in a different direction and the fact that you had the inner wisdom in the intuition to say actually I'm gonna turn towards advice and therapy and code and inside and learning and radio hearing this message from us. for community like yeah, that's what I want Will you take away. Was the wanted to hear that the choice we have to try and make and something you said, this concept of mud, the intersection something spot for me. As you said that, and I was going Please sentence, but I didn't want to because you know what I mean. How I didn't know you, that's why I waited because I didn't know what you'd read or heard, but I was too That is why, when I heard the word, when you think about

or even like a trigger that eventually leads to trauma. It's actually the intersection between an unexpected event, but if familiar feeling and today is what you do my earlier as well like how you repeat, your parents, marriage, The idea that it's an unexpected, but you didn't think you would have ado that right and familiar feeling you now ice. I feel that all I ask going through a divorce. Someone's asked me for divorce is an unexpected event. The feeling of I dont like myself already- and this is a reminder something I know deep down, yeah and stout familiarity with the unexpectedness that completely converges to create such this harmony and man minute I've really dies opened his your leg, and it's amazing when you have like a great support system around you telling me that no you're, a good person like you know my best friend and she wouldn't tell me like we would. Yes, you

the culpability here you know and we would she knew. It merely- should very well cushion my best friend, but oh you're, not a bad person. You know there are things that you had to learn about yourself and there are things that you know you want to change, but that doesn't mean you're about person and his heart. To live in that duality of like beating herself up and the shame that we can put on ourselves, because this marriage failed and unlike kiss it in the beginning, I was there Marriage failed on Madeira. You know on madeira, will verse and no one's ever gonna love me again, any any man get a date, isn't be like oh you're, married twice. Sorry sia, you know which isn't true, you know, but it's it. It is the things that you know we do, which you know I. I have spent a lot of time, I'm alive up. I read is, unlike in mind, sat in the brain and powerful the brain is and how we can change our thoughts and that steps ass, a fascinating to me. You know like that, you can. We have control. I didn't believe that until now,

Until very recently I was like it is what it is. You know, but now I'm like. Oh, we can change our thoughts and weaken you to decide and and it's like theirs to me. There's like a well you so that aggrieved thing, but I I guess I was like you know is I started zoo listening to Joe dispenser. Of course he has been on the job for low rate. Nobody discovered through years of your show. Actually I love that guy, and I love what he says. You know and I I had to be will be like yeah he's up his great but like you still have to grieve. The stuff goes like I'm just gonna leave this. You know and it's like, but there's the grief over there and I think that's another challenging part of like anything like dying. Is that the grief your body physically needs to go through If you change your mind, set too fast and like it, you noses carbon, interesting

I think it's a little bo them early fascinated by by the whole thing, the brake dear you're. Really when you look a grief and loss, it's like there's the grief and loss of that right and then there's the grief and loss of the person you were with that person yeahs and dead. Two different things, because you were a particular type of yourself. There was a pause of yourself that was connect did to that individual and now not only is that person gone that part that you'd created, where has also go here and is no longer existed so this identity. Layered is such a fascinating, yes object in and of itself and its you are completely in the first place, either and so does this is so many lies to it that a so challenging and all of these things that you're talking about whether it your work, your marriage, your kids, they put a spot, on all of this yeah and all the gaps. What would you say was the most

bored unless you took away from afresh, vision you been, then your second relationship, because you ve just You- were talking so much what it was all about, since agile and what would you say was the first when they took away from the first and then from the second. What have you taken away? What's been the big lesson that You know, I think for me, and it is pretty vulnerable to say, but like yours, oh, I think our rush into both of my marriage is because I didn't want to be alone, and I wanted to be in a relationship and I just wanted to be in a relationship. There were right enough, damning, anything's ever perfect. Of course, but you know, I realized there were things in both of my marriages that weren't like exactly what I wanted them to be and and again it's a hard thing to say, because it's like nothing's ever exactly what you want it to be with some of the things that were happening with us. I think I actually was pretty open and honest about them, but we what we weren't open and honest about was like what I actually needed it to be, and if it wasn't going to be that like then, it probably wasn't going to work and we both needed to like come to terms with that. So you know, I think the lesson is like really levels.

paying what you need and what that other person needs not just what you need like. Sometimes you have to be the one that I mean to say, like I don't think this is gonna work, because bob up but lake to me, I don't think I've ever. been strong enough to be like I'm completely with you, but I don't think this relationship is gonna work like who can do that Oh hard, I'm sure people do you know it's thing I think about it like so silly having just cause, I watched so many movies. Like legend, the mall did you ever see those? You know. I mean it's like they just it. Just how I came to me recently. I was like you know. You watch one of those movies and, like you want that, like the love story to work and then it does in and you like, and you you walk out of that movie, six so sad It just wanted them to be together. You know, and that's high sea alone in this second marriage. I really wanted to work and the viewer watching the movie you're like I know I wasn't right and wasn't supposed to be, and it's like

you know and that's a valid legislative I get it. I would like. First of all, I ran lawlor learned, oh yeah matter, I remained in the end. You know, you're in you, watch that we watch to decouple I'm such a great movie in your like. You know she marries that other guy in your sorry for anybody or the watch and it's been awhile yeah. It's that has really how it's like landed for me in this, like sometimes like what we want to work. Just doesn't you know, and you have to just learn to accept it, and I think that's that's been. The big lesson for me is, like you know, a lot of people on people close to me. No in the have said to me in the aftermath, this like youth- you ve got things work out, for you pretty well, must see your life. You know- and I have been I'm really blessed unlucky in that way, and this has been like one of the first things like didn't work out the way I wanted you and I couldn't control it. You know, no matter what I did. I couldn't change the outcome and like off as rough,

You know, and I'm sure- and I know a lot of people have dealt with that on a much bigger and larger scale than me and and so that was a real lesson of like sort of surrender of like you, just don't get control. You know. I look at my first, origin, think that, like we were married for so long and for so long I didn't have that, like electric chemistry, love that I wanted. But yet I had these two amazing kids and I built this great business and so like that was enough. For me. You know in this stage of my life I feel like. I actually want more of it all now. You know where I was always like. Well, I have this. I don't have that, but I have this and now like a one you, something that I really love and joe passionate about for myself, and I want to have a great love to you and now I'm trying to find both similarly in, and you know alley leg you whatever I appreciate that you honestly this conversation. The book is like you're the real deal like a lot of people say they want to share their messy truth and they want to.

tell what's really going on and I think it's almost like we're still trying to do it because it sounds and looks vulnerable, but it isn't and that's how you know- and I think that hearing from you today all I've heard is the messy truth and it's not being, I can't think of anyone who's. Listening to this that isn't going to feel comforted, supported, held and feel connected to your journey in some way. I don't think it's mathematically spiritually. Personally possible for someone to master every area of their life perfectly at all times. I just I just want to get out there, because yet you keep putting it up when we tat, say things like power couple when we say things like all my god, the perfect match, when we see the things that you know. We don't realize how many ideas we put into the world yeah that, oh, my god did. You know they're both billionaires now

a birth? And it's you have no idea just how many ideas your we plant seeds in people's minds there, these headlines exist in reality, and if you're someone who knows anyone, you know that the headline is so untrue about everyone, and that doesn't mean people kind of healthy relationships. It doesn't mean people can have happy relationships between people are perfect relationships. No into people are perfect. Business is no undue, People are perfect, anything no and sir. It's it's a mindset that we ve all been so condition to believe it's why we feel sad when rhine guy doesn't end up with them a stone like a crazy. It's because we ve been taught that that is the path we have today. That is the perfect ending, and it does so

image, wiring that we have to on cross and that's the work you're doing, and I think that that that's what I am so appreciative of watching and observing you on this journey is you're so courageously and bravely doing the hard on learning yeah there's I it reminds me of you know I'm sure, you're familiar with Michael singer and intent of the soil. Yeah there's been a few books that I'm like. do on repeat you're just like I just gotta keep listening to this to get like through the day it didn't sink into me until I started thinking about the whole movie thing which was like he was like. You know, if you're in heartbreak or you're in sadness, he's like he equated it to again it. It only connected for me recently, not when he said it, but this The idea of when you watch a movie and you get sad about something. It's like you are em, but then you tell all your friends about it. You talk about it's like you, almost like the sadness and the emotion that it brings

hmm, but it's just like when it happens to you, you don't like it quite as much, but if you can put yourself in that, like it's just your movie, you know and you're just watching it and you're not going to feel sad forever. You know It's a good perspective of it and it's funny how it's like come full circle for me of like oh, this is my sad movie and it's sad and then it's gone, and but it's also okay, you know yeah and it's almost like just like a movie. When you walk in and watch one part of a movie, you don't get the full picture you walked in on a sad seen. You walked in on a scene where one guys, just now, the guy and using the guiding chases, the bad guy, but actually it's goodbye legacy, so much right we were look it people's lives in snobbish, yeah yeah. Fascinated. You can't tell ruse war whose you, and whose the villain and his daily life and yet becoming, observer in our own life is so hard to do burger alley.

and every episode of on purpose with the final five, and so these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence: maximum. I will ask you to go off if I feel like it. So where's, your novel one. What is the best entrepreneurship advice? You ve ever heard or received progress ever perfection. You know, I think that we as entrepreneurs we get stuck in this, and I see it all the time of like oh, I can start this because I don't have this, and I don't know this, and I don't have enough money out of this. But like just start- and you know, you're, it's it's never gonna. I mean we just we just talk about this, never going to be perfect, but just like just go it'll you'll! we'll get it you'll figure it out as you go, and I think that's what we would a realization. I fully agree with you and that's where the mistakes are made. The problem is, there's no other path. Yeah waited waited waited. He never never make any mistakes never get anywhere. You start new stumble, you will my gloves mistakes and that's what exposes you and is all these flaws in everything, but you

but somewhere in that good messiness yeah and it's like you eat it. It's hard in the moment. Like anything, that's like worth anything is hard in the moment. You know it's like: the mistakes are hard, it sucks, but you learn from them and very cliche, but it is so true. You know right? If you don't get into a relationship like you know, I have a friend you like is like, hasn't gotten your relationship with china. Scare me you just just. Go and even if it's not a good one, just go and like learn for me, you know going up slowly. Absolutely second question it. Why is the worst entrepreneurship advice you ve ever heard or received it's interesting amy? Earlier. You pointed out how I you know. I I took the advice from the women that I was serving in my mobile business. What, when I didn't, We take the advice from like a bunch of men who didn't understand this business.

You know, I'm not. A big fan of like decision by committee is not enough to say that I dont want, like trust the people around me at home. You, I do say yeah, it's like I, don't. I don't believe in this lake. Let me just ask a million people you're not like I I love using you, know, Steve jobs, obviously brilliant brilliant man. Nobody, knew that we know we needed iphones and and maybe we don't need iphones but, like we sure, love them. but we do know we needed them, nor no easy. I like to even made it. I think I saw a preview of the new movie coming out about the founders of the barbaric oh. I wonder what I didn't know that I know I saw I'm pretty sure I didn't dream it and it because you know the story. The story is really fascinating. It's like I like. I think the premise of it is that the founder of blackberry, this is so apropos to what we're talking about. It's like the people in his company, came to him and said, like I think I there's something coming out. We need to change from that. What we're doing and like going

to this smartphone world and and he was like no that's not going to work, that's not going to happen and everybody in the company was like Delia is going to habit and obviously no, I haven't even blackberry, went away which, by the way my brother like had the last blackberry standing as he loved the little button. A lot of people did in the library was like revolution, and one is a mere amazingly. They were the first thing you know, but this is the story as as I believe it, it up in the preview is like that company could have taken the similar path as as iphone did, but they didn't and and again I'm loosely remembering the story, but I just think it's really fascinating that you got somebody you gotta just I try something and see if it's going to work and see if people are going to want it, and I and I'm I've always been a massive fan of steve jobs and I'm like so many others and the iphone, and you know it's like it's just so cool like this. You know like he invented this thing. That became this thing. You know- and you say you know I feel like don't ever get

If you've caught up in what people think of your idea, yeah yeah does it you remind me of the famous quote from Henry ford. He said if I would have asked people what they wanted. They would have said faster horses, and, like I was on my young man, I mean that's great. You can, then that is what it is likely that committee in Ferguson yeah, you kindnesses think beyond yeah what you see here, the ito and so many ideas, don't megan tomatoes bill lots of em, don't work but like myspace, somebody's gonna try we will get anywhere. You know absolutely are at question number three. What

one habit, mindset or practice that you believe every entrepreneur should try to develop some sort of awareness practice. You know whether it's through entrepreneurship, like I, I listened to your meditations, all the time yeah and I've gotten into this place of every morning before I know not always, but most of the time I before I get on my phone and check all my stuff and do all the things like I do. I make keep my phone on sleep mode and get into a meditation while I am still in bed- and I think that, like quiet time in the morning and then I'll usually like write for well not even like a page, you know just something to get like the cobwebs out. Almost you know, and I think it's I think it's just important as a human, but you know as a as an entrepreneur just like you know, like level set yourself and I and I really try to do it before I go to bed at night too. You know I always go to sleep now, whether I'm really tired or not. To like some sort of like sleep meditation. I think I only catch like the first

five or does it is. Is good but I I really love thy and I never had a practice like that for I'll tell you. I never had a practice like that until my may separation happen and I was like am by myself. We used to like watch, t v and then fall asleep and like again that was that's like one of those things that I'm like, I'm so glad. I almost never turn my tv on my bedroom anymore. I am- and I know that probably a lot of people don't believe even in that- and I'm actually about to move and like to put a tv in my bedroom, because I feel like I almost never watch tv in my room anymore, because by the time I get in bed, I usually want to read. I want to do my meditation. I want to write, and by the time I do all that I'm so tired

they also I dunno. I pick up so much random information, but I I heard somewhere. Somebody said it maybe was you who knows cause, I watch them as yourself, but like by ten thirty, you should be off screens. I think it was maybe huber men who sat in and could from ten ten thirty to four is that your brain starts to go into to depression. Again, I don't remember the science, but I was like whether it's true or not. I like this. I want to one be off my devices by ten thirty, and so that's really. My goal now, which I used to stay up and watch t v till like midnight, you know, Don't do that anymore. I feel so much better. I mean I was also on a mission to like a guy feel better year, like I gotta get out of this depression and sadness. I better do everything I can do it now mike Well, I'm not really that sad anymore, I'm! I really am not sad anymore, but I think I should still keep doing these things you know, and so that I think, is important to have that kind of practice, and I really have come to love it. That's beautiful! I love. It are a christian forum, five question

for how would you define your current purpose that very clearly, you're right now is like giving back being of service like I feel, really called to like help, others in lots of ways. I m starting this volunteer program at c h, allay which I feel really called to him looking at doings, therefore, in our laws- and I do a lot of mentoring for other entrepreneurs, and you know in some things there's, like you know, money involved and I'm speaking at things, and I you know- and I think that that's okay and good and then there's some things, I'm just donating my time, but it's all in like in the name of service beautiful for sure. Right now. I love the fifth and final question, which was to every guest who's ever in the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be ah to be kind where you're just so divided because of you know it's like I mean I think it's deeper than that, but it's like this

notion of. Like you know, even I I said I read something. The other day that was like anger is just grief. We had it like it was just like innate in us to be kind to other people. Like you imagine to what kind of world it would be so much better while said everyone, the book is called a messy truth. How I sold my business for millions but almost lost myself by new york times bestselling author ali web. You can grab the book right now. It's all right now share it. Make your next book club pick discuss it dissect it I mean if you want to have a real entrepreneurial story. Ingenious- and this is the one to have ali- thank you so much in common on the show today, as in a way that genuinely being so open and honest and courageous in your own life and here and I look forward to continuing our on new relations, should remain very grateful for. Thank you so much.

If you loved this episode, you will also love my interview with charles, do hague on how to hack your brain change, any habit, effortlessly and the secret to making better decisions. What am I hesitating on this? Because I'm scared of making the choice cause I'm scared of doing the work, or am I sitting with this because it just doesn't feel right. Yet this episode is brought to you by beyond meat. If you're looking for plant based foods when you're traveling or trying to create rom based versions of familiar traditional meals, this holiday season try beyond meat with beyond stake beyond beef and beyond sausage. There's an option for every meal incorporating more plant based foods into your diet doesn't have to be difficult. You can have your favorite foods, and

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