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that's. Caring, kill, gareth, we're here to do casting out. You know the morale to one or two bad too bad. It's too late. You can't press start now. It's too late, you gotta commit, air buds are locked in two position. Listen guess why we put super glow on them and I can't even take em out look, look and listen, just listen or just listen. I guess. If the pot cast How are you gonna? Do I'm good nothing? I have nothing You don't have to always have something. I don't think I do that's my concern. This, isn't it? Let's talk about our thing podcast! That's not it s, not very true about yourself. What do you have? I have that I went to vegas over the weekend and saw rue paul's drag race live at the volcano. I was in it. I was a carrot claimed that must happen as eu podcast and I just text or the like:

make. As she knows everything about drag race. Yes, she hasn't texted back, So how was it? magical, and I'm saying this because I want everyone is in vegas to go. It was like such a beautiful, fun show and these performers are I'm believable. They give it their everything and it looked. Man. Call? It was just really special term. I've just highly recommended at love. It is a very odd like I I'm a huge fan of world of wonder, which is the production company that produces reports, dry grace and as kind of sin I would say the lake mid two thousand has been like Their website was just where I would go if I wondered know what was going on because they just were always talking about the latest thing I mean yeah, you know some big fan, but can barely handle reality tv. I get very embarrassed for peace.

I get very like confronted strand. People are fighting ass, dresses me out, like I'm fighting, I don't like a lot of that and specially, I think, because drag queens really really mean and sell. Their kind of fighting is like next level, so idea watched it. It's not real fighting. It's like this cycle of this is the caddy mess up at all, and it stresses me out. Chicks are like, can't handle that I can handle. Someone should even jokingly talking to be that way or I'll cry. No, no constantly being confronted with the hard truth about yourself. in a slightly joking, marrying, irene hap. How do they Do it it's like it's almost like their leg their navy seals and they're just going through the training they need to be in a world that doesn't exist? that leaves me like their compatriots and the people with them being like, oh will you better get ready and I'll get you ready by by rip.

the shit out of your make up here and if you can't handle this level yeah than you're not for this world. This world isn't for you. I will say this, though, because of tik tok become obsessed, a tricky, mattel and katya who have their own kind of separate side show, but they were both. I believe, tricking, mattel, one, I'm not sure, cartier one- and I do apologise for not knowing, but I could watch clips of those two looking for the rest of my life, what's their so called, it suggests it's called it, but I don't know that pronounced, but that's how I pronounce it. When I see it, it's like: u, n g h, a j, J, J or whatever, and they just are like you know- some they're watching tv shows sometimes are just having conversations, but what's on ticket are just like a ton of like outtakes or like clips, there's the fur clip, I ever saw was the two of them on the set and then, Maxie mattel does someone snoring

then they everyone goes really quiet and you hear snoring and it was are covered. Person was asleep: oh my god, asleep, snoring loud enough that they could hear it and then got really quiet, purchased, whispering and therefore Oh, my god, I really hate america. Rarely have I totally relate I it I it his but tat was like what I got a covert right. There's israel either it's so funny. So anyway, I think I'm like hey. I don't want to through what it takes to win brute paul's driveway, because I can't I can't be in their emotionally for that. I don't have the bandwidth and I'll meet you on the other side, when you have a show, a watch, you and the other side is also alive and fucking las vegas turns out yeah. and it was so fun. There was like a slap fight segment to live like fake slapping across the face and they brought like an audience member. Unlike their wares like it, there were fucking. higher techniques, and then, like you know,

up in the air tat parts where they get, I mean, it was magical. Magic visa and how many people are in that show. It was five of the drag participants, the hose and then there were these like six boys who are dancing for their lives. You know like shoe, I were an energy scene. They were like bringing ass being like the background dancers of the whole thing, the pit crews, which a full funding stage as a full stage of its not yeah. It's it's like a good sized, not overwhelming. It's. Like perfect, perfect yup, I don't go to you, don't need to go to like fucking the beatles cirque du soleil or anything like that. You know just go to drag race live to something funny and awesome yeah. It was really fun. I wonder, though, if people would take issue with you calling them drag participants know it was like what I say: drag queens

rightly another drag baby. I think we do whatever you call that don't take him down, and I guess I ll color in queens up job has been delighted that it wasn't like that. So can I say this war are you allowed to say queen here, melodic colony went to queen. If they're not leg royalty I had my allowed to call people the thing that they call them serious, because that's also an assumption who am I, who am I to say queen freight. Look at me members who soccer mom without me, kids done so sad as second thing, that's not a queen are here, a sip of diet, ginger ale. As you said that, whilst it is so low spit, take into my microphone. I have an update from care clank, it was, oh come on trees. Alexis matteo, Bosco

nine heels and Kennedy davenport yeah each one of them like wrought. Everything they had a you know why, because their queens, because there could be there queens. That's why liquids that's awesome. I want to see that show that's a fun thing to do in las vegas care, yeah yeah, that's an argument for speaking as I do have like a mail bag update off of I sprang he'll jack story that I did a couple weeks ago. This decline of this is I live beside spring he'll Jack's cursed, family of dear anne. It just starts dot, dot. Well, technically, the curses broken now, but that's a less interesting title and then I was just listening to Karen spring he'll jack story and was shocked to hear lord waterford being mentioned as possible. Suspect I'm from the we'll village that borders the grounds of the waterford estate in southeast ireland, most people out

at the village are always shocked. To hear that there is a lord waterford. I think standard assumption is that we got rid of all those hereditary titles. When ireland became a republic, the village has An odd relationship with the big house, feminism current more and then improve. This is, it says: don't pronounced the g and you'll be grand you'll be rand. Maybe they meant that it was a big employee. for the village over the years, but most people never stepped foot inside the house tunnel work training. My grandmother said that sometimes the lord sons would try and integrate with the village and join the soccer team. The locals just It is an opportunity to play really rough, but the sun, but they were having a great. I grew spending my summers in the woods on the estate swimming in the river and trying not to be seen by the caretakers and in and the he says, and this was in the nineties. It was only one the eighth lord died a few years ago and his son took over where the grounds made a bit more public and I got to go

on a tour of the house, which is where I heard of the curse on the family. Back in time, The first lord waterford- seventeen hundreds. There was a widow with an unruly son living beside current more state ship here. We brought him to the lord one day to try to put some manners on him, so the lord hanged him from a tree, the widow went on to curse the family so that the? Next, seven generations would not die in their beds. That's classic irish revenge right there I can't remember how all the lord's died, but all seven generations died either abroad or in horrible accidents. The few can find online are third, are and spring he'll jack broke his neck in a fall. Well, hunting, sixth, escaped being killed by a lion but then went on to drown when he was thirty. Six and seven died at thirty. three in a shooting accident by the eighth lord was

apparently the first to die of old age at home, thus proving the curse has finally ended, wow right so sexy and don't get on the wrong side of irish widows, ruth damn don't die in your bed is so specific and it like almost sounds quaint, where it's, like others die on the couch. But no, that's not what that means. Everyone know, that's not the that's, not the five of that curse and then it's like, and now, Take this to oh! That's right! You're What she's thing is you will not have a pleasant, less rights, its matches, our kind of odin diana lazy boy. It's now with a view to this is the living room is not a part of it at all. You can be out shall we go to exactly right corner. Is it time to go to? I believe we make that choice, and I choose yes, hey we have a package,

network record. Exactly right. Media here are some highlights from rave. Reviews are rolling in four infamous international, the pink panther story. Thank you guys so much for all the support. knows charts round the charts Are you guys are saying nice stuff? Thank you so much and this week the panthers develop a new talent which has prison break yeah great numbers coming up. Follow the show wherever you like to listen and do all the things you know to do to support podcast. We really appreciate it and then on wicked words. Kate Winkler, dawson is joined by titty smith, the author of death by talons, and then the side being, as did an owl murder, Kathleen Petersen smith, explore

his neighbor Larry polaroids theory of her cause of death did, and I will do it. That is the question and kate winkler. Dawson in her expertise is going to help us get to the bottom of that, and I do need to get to the bottom of that because I have held forth on my quote: unquote opinion about that theory, but it's based purely in just my gut feeling and there's no better person, don't get winkler dawson and just I titty psmith spell their first name tee, I d d. Why just so? You just make that clear just to make that clear it's important, but I can't wait to listen to this episode. Kiss now be They have an informed opinion right. Also this week, Bob's tests and brandy guest on lady to lady is actress. Antique talker, Becker, bastards also can guess what the warm weather is waning. So this is your last chance to get some cute tank tops and more

will tease the never submit shirt featuring pearl hearts quote has been restocked also, so you can get at my favorite murderer, dot com get those workout tank tops in and those you know, you're like running tank tops and your jujitsu tank tops check those, and I guess that's that I guess it's time to start crying. a deal days are coming october, tenth and eleven with two days big savings exclusively for our prime members. You'll feel like you just one: the big game, here: Kevin's doorstep, where he just executed a textbook package. Pick up cabin talk is through these deals. You scored well prepared our touted. I do this coffee greater deal would be a waiter. Thank you kevin big deal everything from home to electronics is on prime big deal days october, tenth and eleven. This episode is to you by progressive motive?

just listening right now: you're driving cleaning and even exercising. But what, if you could be saving money by switching to progressive drivers who save by switching save nearly seven hundred dollars on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts? Multitask right now quote today: a progressive dot com, progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates national average twelve month savings of six hundred. Ninety eight dollars by new customer survey to stay with progressive between june twenty, twenty one and may twenty twenty two potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states of situations exposed It was a cover up at columbia, university, the new podcast from wonder he and doctor death host, laura beale, tells the story of the women behind the case against Dr Robert had at first after hadn't seem like the kind of obi g. Why an you recommended to your best friend com, knowledgeable and greeted every one with a smile, but his chin, full demeanor, head and ugly truth doktor robber Hoddan was found to be a serial predator, who abuse hundreds, potentially thousands of patients over his decades long career, once

stories began to see the light of day. One question remains: how was this position who was trusted with the lives of so many able get away with this for so long and when in a powerful institution he worked for, was confronted with these accusations. Did it choose to protect? It's own reputation, listened to exposed on the wondering app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to exposed early and ad free and one to replace, get started with your The trial had wondering dot com, slash plus. I saw him first, the sweet hmm alright right today. I'm you quick little story about them. Nineteen, ninety, six, unsolved missing persons case! Yes, it's unsolved Andrew Jacobson and her five year old son and the botched investigation into their disappearance, so hold your pants up for a court case. Please Main source for the story is reporting by tricia torrents guess who discuss this

case on her pie, cast the vault and about it for the forum of fargo, more ahead, which is the main newspaper and fargo north Dakota and is Tricia's reporting in episode three hundred and sixty three for the branded swanson disappearance episode that I did and she actually reached out and suggested this story to us as well as one to know she wants more attention on it. So how cool is that that's incredible so crime journalist reached out to your basically to say: hey if you like that story, you should also cover this incredible leather. Thank you, tricia turns guess, bring him attention and awareness to these cold cases and even now, over seventeen. Ninety ninety six- a bismarck north dakota police officer, new, Connor, is among the officers called to centennial park on the shores of the Missouri river, a car has been found at its grey. Ninety. Ninety honda, civic, its parked, were close to the river. It's a really freezing cold frigid

so think of a north dakota winter needs very cold gray. The rich temperature is around thirteen degrees, hoof your buyer rivers, I'm sure, there's like winchester whenever so police something's wrong when they see that the cars driver side door is open inside the car police officers find the key he's in the ignition and a woman's purse on the passenger seat and inside the purse. the state idea card belonging to a woman named Sandra Jacobson, it's from her job. The envy sandra driver's license isn't there and, of course, neither sandra a few hours later. Sandridge mother calls the police and reports her daughter, an grandson as missing. So these things are kind of happen. Concurrently, Santa Jacobson war in december: eighth, nineteen, fifty nine, so she's, thirty, six years old when she goes missing. She

two sons. One is sixteen from a previous marriage and the other one is missing with her is john, his five years old, so just a baby sandra comes from a large family with deep roots in north dakota and by sunday night whence they learn that the car has been found. They are like head to the river to trying to find her together. They urged the sir, William Connor and other officers to keep searching for Sandra John Conor, says I had a kind of the times, and so I was down along that river. For oh, my gosh, I don't now several hours that night he says was below zero. At that point, the wind is howling and the rivers already Freezing up. So there's like these big chunks of ice floating down the river when he says so. It's not an ideal place too. To search for someone way please don't find anything and before the car had been discovered a little bit snow had fallen, so there aren't any footprints that they could followed. That would give many clues

so on Monday november eighteenth, a detective named TIM turnbull, starts looking into the missing persons case. So it's his case sandridge. other bernice green seiners says that sandra and her son John came to her house for dinner on the night of saturday than ever sixteenth of about seven thirty p m sandra had sounded fine on the phone earlier that day, but by dinner time when she went to dinner with her mom, she was indeed asked and seem to be having a mental health crisis. So Sandra had struggled in the past with obsessive thoughts around religion. Burmese for to take sandra to the emergency room and Sandra agreed to go but said she first had a fillip her car with gas so sandra and john five year old, John left to get gas around eight p m and then when two didn't return, sandridge family drove to her home, which is a trailer and centre north Dakota about forty minutes away Sandra John weren't there and Bernice report

her daughter and grants and missing the next morning right around when they found the car in there's car a receipt is found shown that she really did by the gas that my. But after that, no one knows what happened to them, so the report It includes another detail hours before she was last seen by her mother. Sandra Jacobson had called the bismarck least several times and told then that a loved one of hers was being targeted by satanic calls. So doubling having you know, maybe a mental health breakdown. She said that the court was active near her home in centred north dakota and then, when the bismarck asked. Why shouldn't contact centres, police department and said the bismarck police department said she doesn't trust them either. So she's something's gone on Active turnbull has an immediate hunch that sandra and her son wound up in the icy Missouri river and they ass the Bertie county department to search the rivers like that's where their focusing on

spite and overhead search by the national guard and divers going into that frigid water. There's no sign! I now I've Sandra John the day if we are unable to search as thoroughly as they like because of those chunks of ice that are already forming in the river your family and close friends immediately. Doubt detective turn bells theory, so they don't think that sent or would it ended up in the river? One of her close friends a central, never liked going near the river. She always avoided at the entire your family maintains that, no matter what kind of mental health crisis sandra was experiencing, she would never Do anything to her son and that she also wouldn't leave her older son behind, so it like the theory maybe she purposely went in is not making sense on many levels to her friends of Emily right, the second, happens on Monday november. Eighteenth is that Sandra husband,

name. Alan Jacobson flies in from saint louis, where he had been on a business trip, so he had been gone. The whole weaken so Allen had learned the day before and send to the seventeenth sandra and John we're missing. The couple had been, separated and sandra had been telling friends and family that they would be getting a divorce for sure Sandra Van, that Alan was handling all of the paperwork for the divorce, but investigators later be unable to find any evidence that Alan had initiated evoke the divorce at all. So maybe just didn't want it. Maybe he was you know. Hadn't started yet, for whatever reason, if it doesn't seem d we are to me Alan, doesn't up the divorce when he meets with the detective ejected turn was notes from the meeting due note that Alan was also concerned about sandridge mental health. He said she had religious obsessions. He also said she had quote off the wall theories that he was having an affair or affairs. Alan says that sandra called him at six fifteen on the morning of number sixteenth,

they she and John later went missing an ask him to recite the lord's prayer for John and then does it. He left for a business ship in Missouri that same day november sixteenth and just returned when they got to the police station on November eighteenth, and so detective turnbull doesn't immediately attempt to verify this time line, which is like basic detective work. Right. a month later in december and late december detected turn balls bosses tell him to properly that Alan's alibi and so that action goes back over the timeline again and tries to like I think he was so focused on. This. She went into the river on her own accord, theory that he and even try to verify any of the facts at her husband who she's trying to worse. You now is making rand how his son carriers are like. Maybe you should confirm that if you dont think he did it like can from that confirm it yeah either way, and also the idea that, just in the way that you just repeated that story where it's like well he's out of town, so he's like flying

to learn this information, so he doesn't have like a presence beginning of the story. So if he that detectives so like fixated on like she was having a mental breakdown. So she just one into the river the end then sky is a sympathetic character tone I didn't realize, like he's, he's writing but I mean that's what I'm doing right now is wearing the story in my head of what all this might mean for as opposed to keeping it all open and figuring. what it means based on fact. Yes, exactly, yeah. You have to dot your eyes and cross tease. As the detective, I think he's not doing those things because he has a preconceived notions of what happened so there's not any evidence that Alan caused any harm to sandra and John, but this is just the first of many examples where basic police work was done or what done in a timely manner? Alan says that it

eight in the morning on Saturday november, sixteenth respects day his wife and son, but later go missing Alan guy in a van with some coworkers and they drove to Missouri for work. He says: he's aid in a hotel in saint louis, on the night of never seventeenth the hotel and confirms this so. It's kind of like its confirm these at the hotel. It's never confirmed that he like actually spent the night there. You know it's kind of a harder thing to prove, but there's no avenue You know that he didn't set spend the night there that happens and then busy police? Never they never search sandridge home a trailer and centre in north Dakota. They never search her home for clues. Even though Sanders family says she had kept a detailed diary and the dire is never recovered because you didn't go in there immediately and to see. What's going on. I could tell us if they didn't suspect foul play, so they were going to take no steps to look into,

the possibility of foul play. It just feels lake, and I would imagine that this is a pretty a town on the smaller side and a place doesn't deal with stuff like this very much because we think about when we talk about stories like does like my hometown, when I was growing up in petaluma in the seventies, their resolve Levin. I think They told me that recycle eleven thousand people that lived there are those pretty small yeah. You know comparatively and to try to think of that words. Like a suddenly someone just gone, what do you do and one arm what our people doing and how are they doing it and it just over and over makes me think they have standardize federals. interdesign of investigation, whether it's person- murder whatever it is. It's just that These are the things you have to do. I acquired by law for you to do as an investigator because it can't be about some

persons opinion. I think this and I think that, yes, exactly it can't that's a really at the point where it's like it doesn't matter what your opinion is. It's like what you get in a car then, and your insurance card says get this get this say this don't set. You know it's like there's rules for it. It should be the same when you're investigating a fucking missing per it's almost like. If there had been any blood at the scene, things would have gone differently, but because there was that it was an immediate snap judgments re in that snap judgments, although like it's just one of literally fifty thousand possibilities and you you are literally nakata, look into any other, did I say literally twice and around like I'm fuckin, twenty five, it just that kind of thing where the first thing I thought of is, I could see Someone followed her from the gas station re to whatever weird point that was and took them and put

men the white them that I can imagine so it clearly now, I'm the investigator and I'm only investigating white vans like that. Neither re renault sing last thing, makes sense in the very begin. total investigation length investigate this. The operative word here. Everything I mean. Neither of us are professionals, I think, be proven that time and again these are just observations over literate, seven years and hundreds and hundreds of the same of the kind of story drive you insane after awhile absent bucky lately, so they don't search just trailer diaries never found, because Alan Ass, her husband in the house, is never search or declared any kind of crime scene he's to come and go as he pleases, which I will repeat that he is not a suspect and it has never been proven that he had anything to do with it. But because you hasn't been definitively ruled out because the investigation was lacking. It is

weird that he could go in and out and dislike to an already wanted at the at her house. The police also dont pro sandra car for fingerprints or other evidence which is like that's the headspace attention crime scene s, basic stuff Andrews purse is really to Alan in late november, and the car is released to him in december, and then He sells the trailer. A few months later, which is his prerogative if he had nothing to do with what happened? You know, and it that detected, turnbull isn't doing anything in the case, it's more than all of his attention is focused on the river over the winter I will try to search the frozen waters until they can't anymore whence the water ends up in the spring. He asked the media to tell bolder, is to keep a look out and they do get tip nothing ever pans out his instinct and entirely unreasonable whoever park sandra car by the river, whether Sandro or someone else wooden

have been able to leave that area on foot and get very far because it was so called that night, but like that's not what or insinuating and its name ninety six. So he hears that she is experiencing a mental health crisis and he thinks suicide immediately. In any way, my rats where his brain goes in, this day, I'm sure it's that's not all that uncommon for people to think that and then detected turnbull interview, sandridge first husband, a man named vernon and healed that sandra had once been very preoccupied with the end of the world. She and vernon had made a pact that if the end of the world happened, they would jump off the memorial bridge together, which spans the Missouri river right near the centennial park, where her car was found a vernon. Has been adds, however, that sandra had abandoned this plan later in their relationship, because taking her life, what's topper from being able to go to Heaven, so she wouldn't have done it right, so annoying twenty eight nineteen, eighty seven six months after the disappearance

child shoe is found near the river and centennial park. Authorities think maybe the shoe could be five year old johns and Alan Jacobson. The dad tells investigators that it might be his son shoe, but the the brother and the grandma insists that the shoe is too large for him. Also, the day of John disappearance, its thirty degrees out during the day, and the issue is a keds slip on. So that's not appropriate shoe. for the weather. Re said it's probably just some solution. There never able to prove that it says and this february. Third, ninety. Ninety nine, a few years later, turnbull declares the case and active in june of two thousand and four, and this happened in nineteen. Eighty six, the police tat s our who is at the scene with his dog. He was doing all that searching william conner he's now a sergeant and he gets a phone call from the national centre for missing and exploited children, so the wreck

Senator say they found a woman named Sandra Jacobson living in a nearby town and north Dakota. It turns out to be false alarm, but it doesn't spire sergeant connor to take another look at the case, which is basically untouched since ninety ninety nine select for five years on that call the representative from the national centre for missing and exploited children. Tell sergeant conor that they haven't been able to get in touch with Alan, the husband and father to get a dna ample to keep on file in case someone matching johns description ever turns up. They also can't get pictures of john poster they wanted to make conor get samples and photos from sanders. Other family members with doesn't get to speak with Alan until April, two thousand and five, Can you imagine the fucking national center for missing and exploited children is trying to get a hold of you about your son's disappearance and you're, not calling them back. That's a bad look for how long, but two thousand and five on how long they were looking. But no that's

very odd, because also wouldn t want to be finding out yeah. Even if you want to tell some story about that there were, they were arrested. For they were gonna, get divorced or whatever that doesn't have anything to do with how he feels about finding his child. It I've been five years since anything happened with the case like is he not calling once a year to be like, what's up day, what status! That kind of thing is you just in so much grief and right is just such a horror shows. It is like right completely check out, I mean total yeah absolutely when the the people finally speak to Alan in April two thousand and five allentown sir, in that he sent photos for an asian hands photo of john, but it turns out connor or have been the one to send those photos and in that same conversation alan's has he didn't want to give them a dna sample or whatever is an that's, not indication of goats. However, you think you're looking for your son, like that, you'd want

Do anything you could to help right ran it's an agent doesn't sound good to an outsider. Doesn't right! So tell sergeant conor that he and Sandra he's working on their marriage when she disappeared, which is at odds with what sandra have been saying to her friends and family at the time, but she could have been telling him one thing and telling them a different thing. You know he asked admits? Having had an affair? It's not around the time of the disappearance, had been earlier, but this is at odds with his previous account when he said that she had off the wall. Theories about in a fair kind of like using that as fuel to say that she had a mental health issue, but he actually hadn't been having an affair so yeah. But you know that's something that has should have been looked into originally just to get a sense of who the detective was talking to am I getting information from this person as reliable information? Do we know what going on, or should we even be listening to this person on exactly we should be detective?

I mean here's, the thing there's a bunch of people. This is like a thing I see on tiktok alot words like women should be the only people who investigate Because of all these things, the billy to multitask their ability to kind of see through this stuff, via the fact that most women, the way they grow and are in the world. They have to have a sixth sense about the play around them and have to get that sense of it. I is creepy or not or seems riskier, not that's a thing that you develop you're like a pre, teen if not younger, and there are some men who never develop it at all, and yet they go in there and just like well we'll see now this guy it's fine. I know this guy's he's cool. I can tell and we're like, actually that guy is creeping me out or saw a thing recently. Like a meme, is really cool that was like you know. Men have been saying for years that women shouldn't be in positions of power, because the two emotional, as if anger

isn't an emotion rate like that me so hard or it's like that, is an emotion and how is that unacceptable acceptable? But when we have empathy or when we have whatever two emotional, it's all bullshit. It is bullshit, it's it's all been bullshit, it's always been bolton. The children are realising. Now it's wonderful! Thank god, ok, sergeant Conor now finally, ass the train, get sanders phone records hey. I would have been a great thing to fucking. Look at that clan and nineteen. Many sixty police did get her landline records for the month of october, but first reason, never got them for november the month she went fucking missing and that would have included weeks leading up to her and johns disappearance, which seems like we would have been crucial information. So back to that and four when sergeant connor, starts to look into the case. The phone company no longer has those records course, islands

upset and had a cell phone and ninety ninety six, but no one ever attempted to get those record's fuckin estranged husbands, phone records and whence conor contacts verizon so they only have records going back to two thousand and one police, also. Never looked at our landline records and dogs were gone as well. One set of record sergeant. or does have its sandridge car phone records so and actually got those at detective, turn balls requests during the initial nineteen. Eighty six investigation. one thing. You notices sat in the hours leading to her disappearance sandra made multiple calls to a life insurance company each call she hangs up ten seconds after the call is answered in the original instigation. These calls were dismissed because the number was similar to the bismarck police department who she had been calling about. The satanic cope worries, but when sergeant conor looks and sandra life insurance policies, it turns out that she did

at one point have a policy with the company she had been calling the time she disappears, that policy had lapsed. So it mean on her way to disappear, she's calling a life insurance company that had lapsed. That's suspicion, ray and that's a whole other possibility that right and blooms Our of like are you trying to disappear totally tab. Sergeant Connor looks for other life insurance policies. He finds one worth thirty thousand dollars that Alan had collected five years. you're Sandra johns. Disappearance wishes unreasonable, not in the least so sergeant kind tries to reexamine sandra phone calls to the police, about the satanic called on the night of her disappearance, but finds out that the recording had been deleted. That's just gone, which it seems to infuriate him. It doesn't it It was just right on purpose, but it wasn't saves, then those caution we saved indefinitely sandra

their calls from a car. From that evening she called her first husband vernon, who, at the end of the rope packed with he missed. The call she asked called another family member and was destroyed and not herself according to them. In the months following sandra and John disappearance. Their close knit families had tried to navigate, the holidays without them. Send sister in law, says, quote: holidays her thing, everyone how to be together, everyone had to have fun. She was all about family family members remember five year old, John, as a little ball of energy who loved her run around the house, he would tie a towel around his neck, like a cape, so he looked like a superhero anal syndrome it has been vernon, died in two thousand and five. He was run over by his own car on a rule, road and Tuttle north dakota and his death is also I'm sorry, that's horrible, which makes you think it was an accident that the genome, if its unsolved

This means his son, who was sixteen at the time of his mother and brothers. Disappearance, has lost both of his parents. Andrews parents have both died without knowing what happened to their daughter and grandson, so conor- has discussed the case in the years since disappearance and remain sceptical that sandra died by suicide and took her son with her. So thank you for that What are the unanswered questions in the story have to do with Alan, but rather than identifying him as any kind of suspect They really just shut the light on how many stones when unturned. In this case we are what evidence might have been found in centres car or in her trailer or in her november phone records. even though all of that evidence was accessible at the time maybe We would have learned about somebody else and Sandra life there

Also is a possibility that sandra and John did go into the river on november. Sixteenth. Ninety ninety six, but all we know is that is the only possibility. That's been thoroughly investigated and zero evidence proving it has ever been found. So that speaks volumes. and that is the story of the disappearance of sandra and John Jacobson wow. So many stories like that in their so heartbreaking rate and oftentimes, This happens when you tell me like an unsolved called case. It's like them information, you learned the more confusing it gets and it's almost like it may sense to me when an investigator would grab onto one theory and just be like this is what we're doing because There's a simplicity to it, and I kind of like why would she be calling life insurance company. Is connected to what she was going through, or was that if she was

having obsessive thoughts, was that connected that somehow his life insurance doesn't sink up with any sort of end of the world scenario. There wouldn't be any insurance. So dont worry about that. Like you, you can't Keep writing off is like a mental illness because those relevant things actually happening within that framework and clearly. She was ok enough to be driving getting gas making phone calls, you know these things and saying that she'd go to the hospital to get help for her mental illnesses. Like that's something. A person who just in a completely different minds to gonna give you agree to. It bears some yard of you, that's open to take them to her. Although can I just say this, there is also the peace If she in her- and I dont know what the extent of like religious, obsessive thoughts would mean if it spills over into some sort of paranoia, but if but he says you have to go to.

Spoke as this might be getting back again, and you actually don't believe. That's true, because you, whatever thought you are having our guiding you to a certain thing like that's, that's, of an interesting like maybe telling somebody s was just a way of getting away how it alone, and then there was kind of a we have to get away from this town are absolutely, but that doesn't sink up with was involved. She was with her family if she was really religious. I that suicide doesn't flow with that in my thoughts but who the fuck knows, I mean well, I think it doesn't. Go with if you are having like ok say whatever those thoughts might be in these are obviously completely made up, but it's like god is talking to you re god is trying to tell you something. Then god, wouldn't

Tell you that when you say that ray and hurt your son yeah, no, no, no, that would be then you'd, be able to maybe recognize that that isn't what's happening. But what were those thoughts? Was it a theory? Was it like something's going to happen, because I think there is thing to that lake. The end the world kind of pact, with the first husband right put you into mindset of the concerns of all and the law people believe this is like gods. Gonna come back, we're all gonna get judge ray we're all gonna get separated out. Only the good people will make it to Heaven. So what's the plan maybe that's not even the theory. the end of the world. Maybe she just means like the under them. Like a horrible rail attack, something bad like that: and the point is uneven, like defending her, that she didn't do something and some- and you know she had bad thoughts, and went through with these horrible thoughts, but the fact that there is

no evidence either way and there isn't. There wasn't a good enough reason. to believe that whole heartedly, like that, you know that, but does he and his answers? There's no answers ray it, isn't her history and because you have any sort of mental issue does not mean that you're something going to act, a radically and go do any number of things like it all has to be pulled up. analyze looked at and the facts have to be put on the table. I mean is said that a bunch of times, but it's like standardize it standardize it's right what facts need to be found when and why, and by what time? Forty eight forty eight hours first forty well, I hate to say great job to an unsolved cold case, as I will be thinking about this now for the next sorry, sorry, but I guess that's kind of the idea is getting people to listen.

attention and and perhaps come forward if they can definitely If you're a true crime. Can you know a lot of stories come florida and unfortunately, they sometimes above alligators. More importantly, you know that things are always what they seem and all These things are true and the new season of wonder is limited series over my dead body. Gone hunting, gun hunting tells the story of MIKE Williams, who set up on a hunting trip in the swamp of north florida. Twenty three years ago we play and being back in time to celebrate his six wedding anniversary with his wife Denise, but he never made at home friends and loved ones feared that might have been killed by alligators and it would take over. Decades for the horrible truth to be revealed a secret love triangle, a kidnapping and a predator no one ever suspected over my dead body gun hunting is out now on the wondering app or wherever you get your pipe or you

listen to over my dead body early and ad free on when replace get started. With your free trial at wondering dot com slash, less good. I e all right well This story, I'm about to tell you, is also confusing weird and kind of takes a lot of terms, but its very- different, the person who So about is also one of the authors, of like the source material, it's we'll ten, you tragically sad increase We bizarre and then also kind. like woe, you can do that like it's quite a story. How could it be? Well, I do no, if you have heard of it, but you would have learned about this person if you read the twenty nineteen g q article by writer, nathaniel pen and it was called the cure, yes cons of the man who wouldn't die so bad

I must tell you the story today of a man named mark Olmsted, the other source main source that was used is a twenty seventeen post on medium by mark homes. himself and it was called breaking broke. Bad a true gay crime story. I wouldn't believe if I hadn't lived it. Ok, the fence fun right, it starts bad and then it gets crazy, I don't know if the word fun would be used ever and as I was as I was reading it, because when first heard it. I was like ooh, that's interesting and then, when red marin's research- and I was like reading it as laid out, I was like, oh my god. This is like this really something, and it's kind of that part of the thing I about true crime. Podcasting, especially, is it. You kind of very clear, you know, who's gooden, whose batter you know what's going on in the story, is not one of those stories at ok while wow, okay, so it

The story about the arms dead brothers, the eldest brother in the unsteady family was luke. He was the oldest four children. He was a good sign, he was an eagle scout. You know he did everything by the book and, as all oldest children are forced to, he was the parental figure for the rest of the family. His brother mark is the opposite of him. He's two years younger he's, the creative one he is, the jokester he's the improviser. He is the one that gets to live like that, because he has a responsible, older brother. Basically, you know- and I guess- I had an alcoholic dad, so that's even more pressure on the oldest simply to like handle shit and that's what luke did for the family so There were opposites in personality and guidance, growing up the sixtys, but then one thing they did have in common is they were both gay man, so late seventies mark comes out when he's eighteen at that point, the

rights movement in the u s was in full swing. It had been about. a decade since the stone wall riots- and if you don't know That's when the members of the eligibility, q, plus community banded together and fought back against a police raid at the stone wall in bar in new york city, It's a pivotal moment if, but I think we covered it in the show pretty sure I covered one already did a great job yeah! Oh, thank you! So go! Listen to that one! It it's it's in a really amazing cool story about the with a gal, the very oppressed and very harassed. community in new york city and though riots also inspired people all around the country, to come out and to stand up for their rights and for their humanity. So it really. I was a flashpoint moment and so it had been about a decade since that had happened. So then the that's one peoples did having gay pride parades and doing things to say we,

going to be hiding any more and we are going to be. You know in the of bars trying to hide from the police, like it's not like that anymore. Not yet I'm doing that anymore, and so mark felt free to assert his sexuality at a time like that, but loop struggled with it here, where college and when came out. Luke wrote him a letter that said, and it was kind I got it was coming out letter, but it was also had some tone in it Luke said to his brother quote have the same feelings, but I dont act on them. So the little he's spirited brother gets to come out of the closet, and everyone accepts them for really is and gets to celebrate him. But the older brother who feels like part of his possibilities are to be the like happened. The family and everything is a little annoyed that lake yeah, that that happened. That's exactly and I think also them growing up in the sixties. This kind of thing was just unimaginable.

honesty and there is no visibility. There was no nothing. So around nineteen. Eighty mark is move. to new york city to go to and why you, and basically with mark support and encouragement loop comes to new york to and mark basically encourages him too, like dip ato and the dating scene and try to get out there and just kind of live he's is new york city you can do what you can be. You want an he does but white these days. Every one forgets this act. the nightmare era, was about to start because in june of nineteen eighty one reports of previously perfectly healthy men. Who are now being diagnosed with deadly illnesses that are typically scene and much older or severely. Immunity compromise patients are starting to roll in, and doctors and medical experts are baffled.

They don't know why these pages or getting so sick. They don't know. What's infecting them, they dont know it spreading. What they do know is that it happening, the numbers are growing and most of the patients, if not all I d if I his gait man, so these early, ports, usher in a sense of confusion and deep fear for society. as a whole, of course, I've. I've talked about this on the show before, but I amber watching the seven o clock news with my parents as they did every night and it was out of sight. just go, and I remember watching as dave mackerel. Hatton was just like a mist, the illness was just mystery on this because it was, you know it was nineteen, eighty one, so they didn't What to say about it. They just were saying this is happening in its happening like in this city and in other cities- epidemic, oh, my god, how terrifying yeah! So, of course, the

nations going what the hell's going on, but it was specially horrifying for gay men, of course, like mark and luke. In fact, mark would later right that is holy I've changed on July, third, nineteen, eighty one, one quote: the new york, I'm pulling the first article about a bizarre new immune suppresses syndrome, being seen among gay man. That was the David. Deeply speaking that I got up from one chair and move to the one next to it. events unfolded in increasingly dark, increments, kept moving to the chair. Next over ever closer to the edge of a cliff. I could not see until I was teetering into it, end quote sown by late nineteen eightys the medical community had a sense of what was going on. People were getting infected with a virus now known as human immunodeficiency virus or hiv. At that point, there

is more of an understanding of how it spread, according to the cdc this most often events through unprotected sex and the sharing of needles and syringes with an infected person. It does not spread through the air through sharing, toilets through saliva, tears, sweat, hugging or insect by it's that sounds obvious to people now open loud. That's what we thought. That's what they told us and that's the way there people were treated yeah as if they were fucking cesspools leading to pass this. Does These two everyone is horrendous. The way they retreated was horrifying and ignorance. It was like, I remember, watching an episode of opera and this man they are trying to do like a town hall style episode. out. The aids crisis and this man she was somewhere else. She wasn't in chicago, I dont think from when I remember,

but there was a man who stood up and said I dont want to be around him and I don't want to have to eat after him, and it was just like what the fuck are you, too King about like yeah. It wasn't just people be scared and unsure, but people were absolutely kind of creating what was gonna happen and how is gonna happen to them? So I think it gave a lot of a lot of it's fuel for their bigotry entirely and guess what didn't help the president of the united states, who did not say the word aids, he's a threat. Five years I mean reagan. Administration it one of the ugliest black marks on any leadership group, I think ever to have something like this been going on in the country and huge simply ignore it not speak of it or act like it's, not their problem and the fire they thought not just, in a region, is as such,

we just the figure head the people who were doing the job, roar and around him made that decision, and that was very much a crew. jen me undercurrent of they get what they do vibe. I went over the years an undercurrent. It was a straight up christian right here, get what they deserve yeah. It was our fine words. What was great about that was that activists and advocates in the gay community and for the gate community like act up which is: the aids coalition to unleash power, they start fighting for better health care for hiv and aids patients and they a lot of measure to basically try to push the united states towards finding a cure. such a change to what was just they were just starting to be like hey. Could we have a parade, and suddenly there literally fighting for their lives reagan, would

to address the hiv aids epidemic until nineteen, eighty, seven after overtime, me thousand americans were dead and wild, so but we're just trying to set this tone. for people twenties this as a personal Her fifties, who literally was eleven years old when this happened it was one of the most horrifying scary and at all, to live so close to san francisco, where a lottery activism was happening and a lot of gay people. Gay community was really coming together and like fighting for themselves. It's just it was such a strange stream, thing, and I feel very lucky to have been so close to so many really smart, loud brave people who got the word out there and were basically saying you do not get to do this to us and you will be giving people there

the goal. Care and all the other thing ray and the respect they deserve this and being right. Yeah you dont politically get to just make a choice to turn your head and per ten like this, isn't an amount Can problem following okay? So let's go back the honest, are brothers. So now it's the late, nineteenth eighties and lucan mark live on opposite coasts, so luke has become. doctor and he's to san diego, to complete his medical residency more still in manhattan. He's trying to become a writer, so luke lights he wants to come and visit his brother for the weekend and marks. Of course, thrilled He sees his brother walk through the door and he is shocked by his brothers. Appearance. Lucas, thin and frail and looks very sickly mark asks him. What's going on and loot, tries to say it's because he's on a macro biotech diet. He knows he looks than its whatever one's doing in california and mark sees that an opportunity and a moment and he's just as to his brother. I just got

said, and I have hiv and his brother breaks down and says me too, oh my god so horrifying and not to like. Continually go off the mark, but this, but this is the kind of thing like this was happening or a lot I didn't even have the sense of it until I was in college. I was with friend, Alicia and she lived in this apartment. Building in her good friend live downstairs. The way she got the apartment because her friends basely recommended her- and her friends were gay couple and we went down there to pick something up and I think they had just one of their friends had just died. And my friend elisa, was still really upset about it and they are talking, and I was just kind of their drinking tea while they were having their conversation and this man. I wish I could remember his name just member. He was incredibly good looking, but he started talking about living,

the aids crisis and the aids epidemic, and he basically said that this friend that just died, had died from something else. It was, you know cancer or something, and he said, do. You know that everyone I used to know died. They all died, This was an o one friend over here or one friend over there. This and was telling us about how every one he knew every one in his social circle everyone he knew that he worked with they all died of aids. It was a scourge, and it was all young men who have futures and in no were activists and were suddenly able to enjoy their true selves and who they were on their lives and because of fucking government inaction. Just scott down in the prime of their lives. It was also older men who were

No, no, I'm just I'm just saying just to fill that out. There was older men who were in the prime of their lives were the best they were the designers. They were the best composers. They were the best lyricists. They were the best make up artists. There was the arts just had the gun ripped out of the centre of it because of the people. Think of broadway what broadway lost think of what fashion lost leg you can, look around and just go: oh yeah, where do gay men flourish and then its eve this sir rated, because truly generation upon generation of people are lost because of the action and because of the bullshit, and it's more of it, gee than anyone has processed or can know. I lost one of my closest friends from sixth grade com. mason He died when he was twenty one years old,

and it was one of these worse things that I want to, that anyone in our class we were dumbfounded, we didn't know what was going on and it was horrifying He died in his mother's house in his old bedroom. Any starved and he was an ant possible bed and it was the kind of thing that that was one person that I knew re alisha friend it happened, every one he knew everyone's differ levels of sick, its it was so the traumatic for the people who through it, and the people who survived and that's kind of what this story is really about, but it gets super crazy but I can't just wanted to like paint that picture because I think Young generations of people just have the thank god they just No it like that in the same way we know polio or something or it's like you, re get a vaccine in your fine and that's not a concern that smart

it was like at all. It was yeah, but so interest because you do. I was a little. I was young, I mean then you are. I born nineteen eighty, but I you know I mere amber, and then there is ryan way the kid who contracted hiv- from a blood in fusion, and so he was my age, and so that's what my introduction was too. You know he was treated urban yeah, it's monstrous. It didn't happen. be like that, I didn't like so upsetting about this whole story. Is it didn't he didn't have to lose all his friends right right. It was because they were gay there's no other reason now why they were ignored by the government. That's right by the medical community. It was almost like to rid the country of something that was unacceptable to christian the christian community. you know of. Government and religion are not supposed to be,

hand in hand, but this is a perfect example of why they shouldn't be. Yes handed him making decisions based on stuff like that and weak devalue human life in a way like that, ever I mean think those lessons and I think, the like advocacy and the strength of the advocacy that came out of that era. It basically It was a necessity and the idea that young people now get to be who they are early. on, and I am in no way saying that it is easy, I'm in no way saying I mean we still have this problem this. The idea god huge problem here,

making it obviously a weird. We haven't progressed in many many many ways in this country, except that I do think there are a lot of people who may have who could have been on the side of been in the middle or on the religious judgment side and instead lost while they loved, experienced what really was leg and learned their lesson cause it with its. Their lesson is the fundamentalist lesson to learn of what this kind of action. How unholy ungodly and disgusting that action or lack of action actually was so essentially Now there are incredibly effective, anti retroviral medications that people with hiv he can take to control the virus. can the eighties and into the early ninetys medical. These were experimental at best, so testing pot if for hiv was gravely serious, obviously so The brother share these diagnoses with each other data.

make a vow that they promise it they're gonna be there for each other as they get sicker because they're, just assuming that's what's going to happen, yeah, it's almost like a death sentence, man or their assuming it yeah right right. So luke goes back to california the brothers continue to keep tabs on each other and then in nineteen. Eighty eight luke calls mark and he has a plan. wants to open an hiv and aids clinic any wants to come and help him get it off. The ground marked does not hesitate he pacts as things and moves to southern california. But he knows that really it's because his brother illness is advancing and his brow any attempt to be close by They moved in together, in los angeles and at this point, according to the cdc by nineteen ninety eight years and the a hunt Thousand americans have died of aids, related illness and that's a higher death toll. Then then,

or of americans killed in combat during the vietnam war Jesus, so luke's health is in but decline by the fall of nineteen. Ninety he's a doktor got this clinic and his colleagues have to tell him you can't come and to work, because you look sicker than the patient's look. My journey nathaniel pen reports for g q, that quote luke would return just once more as a guest office, halloween party and ninety ninety that night he and mark came dressed in matching flying none habits and whimples market rigged, costume out of paper and scotch tape in a matter of minutes, luke had in hours with his patiently measuring plotting and cutting luke. It always be, market everything. Sports chess, the end of the night. He won the costume contest to and by early ninety ninety one its clear that his dying so high- he and his younger,

MR sandra have already done I did sandra, is going to take care of him for his end of life so marked gives his big brother to allay acts. It puts a minute chair gets him to his departure gate and get some on. Flight to seattle were sandra is waiting sandra, says, quote: It was luke's decision to leave los angeles. He knew that mark wasn't strong enough to help him die like end quote. who is stronger, I mean like the people that can do end of life. Things like that are incredible and I mean some of the hardest work. There is probably too do, especially for a relative tonal summits, va luke, homestead whose only in his mid thirty's, we don't have his exact birth dates. We dont nodes has resided at ease, is he's a babies in his mid thirties when he dies of complications from aids on February. Ninth- ninety, ninety one so for mark his brothers death is of

is extremely painful. His brother was his closest friend and he's gone now, so because immediately saddled with all sorts of me neil administrative tasks as the executor of his brothers state. Why Will he is in full morning and grief happens to a lot of people at those times. It's horrible. I can't imagine so marks those most of his brothers affairs, but a few things, do slip through the cracks he doesn't notify luke's bank or his credit card company about his death. and it's hard to blame him for this oversight, cause he's not just grieving his brother. He you say two he's sick himself. So all of this is incredibly way I mean would just be weighing confidently staying here, but just like the story, I told you of a leashes friend,

will lose one close friend after another every few months for the next few years said. The same thing is happening to mark that this, happening too. All gay men there they're just watching their friends and acquaintances and just the people that work down at the coffee shop just die just disappear. Marco later say quote: I dont know what that much grief does to a brain, not to mention the anticipation of being than the next to die. Marked does try to keep his head above water. pouring himself into his writing. And eventually he complete screenplay that he's very proud of any to shop it around delay and at first things, look optimistic, theirs rector name, christian blackwood, who options it and at one point will be Goldberg is reportedly attached as talent, but before that can go off. The ground, blackwood tragically passes away from lung cancer. Next, this group

winds up in the hands of a director named norman renee and for mark renee, seems like the perfect operator, he's an accomplished theatre director and a filmmaker whose first feature film, was an aids centric drama called long time, companion, really quick normal. I wouldn't be naming a movie right now, exempt that I'm fine sure by the time this errors, the writer strike, will be over. I think so too god damn. I hope that's true but this area in Let us not, but it looks like It- will be and then go back to promoting all of the things that we want to promote and talking about all the things we want to talk about. That's right so mark as even flown out to ITALY to complete rewrites on his script. With renee but then again an norman renee dies of aids, so the whole project ends. So this point mark

whose only in his bed thirties as well feels like he cannot escape death, its infiltrated this personal and professional life, his grief, I'll consuming and worse he's becoming increasingly convinced that he's next, he says quote- all the laws, the grief and the professional loss. I created a bit of insanity, especially since I had been diagnosed with aids and ninety ninety three: that's where you are, basically on the two year plan, if you are lucky to his horrifying so genuinely thinking that he has maybe two years to live marcus aids to embrace nihilism. An hedonism. The epidemic as well feeling powerless, depressed and completely out of control he wants to take. Some of them our back and basically live a life on his own terms. Yeah. I love all of this plan. This is all about at all. For now what about offer? He admitted them. Let sucking the abbess so marked says quote

was proceeding as if this was my last hurrah. This was my bucket list, end quote, there's just one hitchin marks blossoming plan. He needs money, so This is where this story takes a big turn, because luke left me and a bank account with around ten thousand dollars in it, which has twenty two thousand dollars today so mark withdraws the money and signs as his brother luke He then realizes he's still been getting luke's. Disability checks like he didn't, inform the right people about luke's do so he starts cashing them to a so he goes he's settling his bar tabs with luke's credit card basically as like, oh well, if I'm done anyway, let's take this money? That was just sitting here and let's basely go out in style, and something about. It is actually kind of exciting for mark. He feels he has like almost anew

identity, an identity that has excellent credit, so his brother, Luke's driver's license expires shortly after his death mark. as to the envy and renews it as luke ngo. and basically takes his picture for the driver's license in accra. So now it's marks, picture on luke's driver's license thought it now. This is the part where it like when I read that per annum, like blue. This is the part where you you have crossed the rubicon into fuck, it world combined? He was he hurting, but the government who's fucking, ignoring him to begin with sure he's the executor of his brother's estate. So would right it was probably his money anyway. I am fine with us morally to me getting picture taken for someone else's licence. That's when you're, like Now, you're being pro active, its fraud and end marked does not ever deny any of that here. I'm not mad at this fraud has brought, you know

being cautious about this. He knows he's blatantly committing fraud and he doesn't feel good about it. He does pay off their debts. that he accumulates on luke's credit card and then in ninety ninety three. He faint swallows home alone. He comes to, he can barely catches breath and when it gets to the hospital. He learns that his seedy four cells have dropped to a dangerous low and now. He also has pneumonia said this is worse news He could be getting there. He is certain that this is it for him, so sure, in fact, that he quit, aw because on disability- and he basically just wait for the end but in audibly. He it's on some drugs and his health improves. So he goes home and he's kind of like the end that he was expecting came, and it wasn't the end. So after this close call mark says screw it basic,

So now he's like I'm gonna die young, I'm gonna go out, guns blazing and its in period that he telling his story says quote that each I called a lot. He was very generous. He was the one to pick up the tab for dinner cocktails up the union. That's his quote: is the directive lover. Can I tell you that, maybe twenty years ago I heard this as an ally. doubt that a lot of gay men who thought they were dying, took credit out and just fuckin live their lives. Then occasion came around a help and they owed like I've literally her this as an anecdote yeah, and it's actually you're telling me it's true, it's reviled and they probably heard it from Because of this store it. Yes, exactly it's out, it sounds like the details are suddenly like sounding the same as what I've heard and also it's just

kind of thing. I think you and I talked about this all through like we talked about this all through quarantine, we talked about it when trump was elected or whatever, which is kind of like at what point? Do you just go, fuck it and start doing everything you want all the time yeah, because whatever because the extenuating assert circumstances of your life is such that you're not seeing anyway outright when you're paying your monthly fucking stew loan dat and realising that all of that money is going to the interests yeah. I wonder the fucking deal, there's no way out of it. What do you do it but say fuck it and live the best possible life? You can that's right. That's why our government, has to get rid of student loan debt because it is predatory lending. Its a scam like these companies are not the companies that people thought they were when people used to love companies and it's like companies have our best in mind. It's not real anymore. Why are we paying tens of thousands of dollars to become capitalist,

like why are we paying so much money that were in debt to work in your system that isn't fucking, make any sense and to pay your taxes? Yeah like put people through school, to become the best possible doktor lloyd fuckin carpenter, whatever they can be, and the economy fucking exploit from their like. Why do we have to be then in debt as well? Ok, Take whenever you want, as soon as it is reagan, got brought up a fucking, angry and, like just you know, of killer line that I had when I did my mother's eulogy at her funeral was, I said. No, I dont know the one thing talking about her life and how great you as in all that and then I was like, but the one thing. I know that my mother would want you all to know today that she hated ronald Reagan. entire church hundred and that church like it was like

explosion of laughter amazing, because my mother ranted about we'll dragon every goddamn day and night to anyone that would listen to her cause. She was a psychiatric nurse and everyone should now the yes and they can, down all the mental hospitals and that's why homelessness is the problem that it is now not be. Has those people individually are so guilty? It's because they have no services. They need he'd services, they want services and our government. When you know what don't have to pay. For that me, more dont worry trickled economics will end up fixing it all, and if you are in the middle class, why do even care about those people they're? Not your problem? Why should you pay for them? Well, guess what it s, what because that's the way society works. That's where healthy society works. That's also the way every other country on the planet should not go into bankruptcy because you have cancer by comparison, dot o K. Fucking concept, never like your,

workers give the person who s cancer their fucking vacation days, because they don't have an obligation, is never went celebrates in our society, helping each other. They should have as many days off as they fucking me to combat cancer. You should be able stay home and take care of your brand new child. This is the story that touches on all of those things. It's just a different version of the same story: okay, so the you hear witches many people's issue when you go hard, partying cause you're like I'm living it up to the fullest. In my life, days is my twenties cycles, and similarly starts using math out now was my teens. That was your chance. I was sure tat. He said and this made me so sad when I read this line. He said that math made him like in the midst. Of all that fear and grief and horror, meth made him feel

his old self social, flirty, energetic and carefree that society does that so side from his disability payments mark has no real money coming in. So continues. Cashing checks, draining bank accounts, swiping credit cards in both his own and his brothers name with reckless abandoned, and before long he's wrapped up over fifty grand in doubt and about that he says mark says quote: there was just absolutely no reason to believe that I'd be around to deal with the consequences I knew what I was doing was dishonourable, not respecting my brother's memory and illegal, but I doing crystal meth more and more, and I was getting very addicted to getting away with things. So is just the whole thing was a Lifestyle is an adrenalin rush. Probably right So then, monday mark seasonal, patch: it's not a poem

solution, but it's a way to alleviate some of his dead at the bottom of it. luke's credit card bills. There's an option to ensure the cards balance, should the account holder die so much, hatches a plan. He's gonna, take that box on luke's credit card bill mail, it back and then get to work. On an data death certificate that makes his brother luke's death seem recent and then what that's done. He'll notify the credit card company of luke's death by mailing in the doktor death certificate incur so marked tracks down luke staff certificate which he had at home? Then he takes a separate piece of paper, any cuts out a tiny rectangle, any right the date from the current year on it. He puts that on who luke's death certificate over the date of death. He makes a photocopy of it and to mark surprise the copied death certificate looks legit, but to give it in

she'll flourish. He needs to replicate a government seal somehow and mark being The creative figure set out as nathaniel pen reports in his jijiu article mark had dutifully bought it. asked color seal, that red c c and used to validate certified copies of the death certificate, we want to scrutinise the seal, they would notice the small print that reads: corona cougars market, the seal at an office depot. The corona cougars were a local youth baseball team MIKE. He's just having fun at this point ass. Any really is one luke's next credit card bill shows up in the mail and the entire balance is zero. So the plan works. by the year two thousand and one twenty years into the aids epidemic over four hundred and fifty thousand people have died, remains but then,

so the tireless work of activists. Huge progress has been made to combat the crisis and cheese among them are the new drugs called protease. Inhibitors that are extremely effective, treating I ve. So now finally, a positive hiv diagnosis is not a death sentence, but many people still carry the trauma of living through the epidemic and, of course, mark is one of those people the that he spent morning, not to mention convinced that he's been near death are truly taking a toll on him and, of course it does the help that now he is addicted to crystal meth. Even though he has a job that he loves, which is writing for a magazine, he's not earning nearly enough money to chip away at his enormous debt and always on him and and your pen writes about mark he was consumed with having enough money to survive with finding a way get more whenever he needed it, money,

became inseparable from the terms of his illness and a kind of metaphor for it. So, the more money he as the better. He feels health areas unless the close areas to death, and so gets a new idea when he learns about something called a articles settlement so of articles settlement has won. An insurance company sells a gravely ills individual policy to a third party that third party than fronts the sick policyholder, a percentage of their life insurance pay out and keeps the rest after their death. Why

that's ok because of the falcon medical system that we have the privatized again. Healthcare system that we have as it makes and who are dying of an illness can actually go well. At least you can take a little bit of this thing. You ve been paying off for thirty five years and have a little more to fight all of this. This wall of debt, its nightmare, so Isuppli, to mark being able to cash out his life? Insurance policy is great solution to him. The problem he's on medication that is keeping the virus and check. So he is not sick at the moment is not symptomatic. So in a move that signals marks total sense of hopelessness, he stops taking his medication. This causes his city for cell counted nosedive. His immune system takes such a hit that a group of doktor determine he will likely die within the next two years and they sign off

the viaticum settlement, the third party company, ends up giving mark fifty eight thousand dollars, which is over a hundred thousand dollars today and immediately uses this money to pay off his ballooning credit card does so he basically he's left with about ten thousand dollars to spare it's not an. To get by on, and on top of that of course, this scheme to basically pay. If money and deal with money has left marks. Health completely wrecked Yeah he's in an especially dark place is method diction is raging, and if he contracts any sort of infection right now he could die with addiction. exploration at the wheel. He decides the quit his magazine. Job and start dealing math out of his west hollywood home as Nathaniel pen puts, it quote, mark believe

he was finally living with dignity. Now, even if he was dealing math, he was paying his bills with cash that he had actually earned Dealing mouth was an opportunity to get out of the like scamming and the fraud Two thousand two: when marks city for cell count, is still dangerously low. He get sick with a virus and he has to be hospitalized now. Work is in his early forties, but is immune system can't fight back? He winds up in the hospital for three weeks, The prognosis is not good mark and, as doctors don think he's going to be able to recover, but then using one last combination of antiviral meds marks, doctors stabilize him when it dawns on mark these gonna survive, his feelings are more complicated than ever. He basic He has been completely fucking with his health right did to get these pay and scare he's gone, math he's lost.

his career, so basically get out of the hospital he has go back to dealing math, but something in Him has shifted because he has survived once again, so he starts taking his medication again regularly head. So there is a small sign of hope. He clearly it is incomplete. Nihilism anymore, he's like there's something did turn in him. Where he's like, I might be able out from underneath this. So then august. Two thousand three marks apartment is rated and the police arrest him, but he gets off with a slap on the rest it is record expunged. All mark has to do. Is pay around two thousand dollars in restitution and do three hundred hours of community service writer Nathaniel Pan calls this. The call white boy special right so drew mark says quote that my opportunity to get sober, but I wasn't ready for that. Yet the addiction was to deepen me and

So once again, marked comes up with a plan and this time he's gonna fake his own death. Oh my god, this plan is, the height of him, addicted to math yeah right. So it's like death. Duration, desperation and lake and game game he forges a certificate in his name. He right his own new york times actuary. But you We pay to have your obituary and the new york times he does it sends it all off. He does. It in the voice of his brother look. So it's like his brow there is notifying these different places, these different credit card companies and these whatever it is, and just saying. Unfortunately, now he's dead. You know whatever and four months marks convinced that he's pulled off this his con known comes looking for him. No one questions is documents he said to be home free, then he makes huge mistake. He keeps on dealing math out

of the same house where he was arrested dear less than six months after faking, his own death, the police car back around that house. They get reports that drugs are being dealt out of that house again. So They come to investigate they then realize mark is still alive, so the death certificate had gotten sent to the police department. To say: don't worry about this guy anymore unfortunate he died, so light may show all his stuff scrubbed. They should been there like you're, not dad, I marked says quote: I always make his joke. If you make your own death successfully, you have to move to now, but I had a rent stabilized apartment yeah iran allay is our hard place or rent rounded materialisation is beautiful. They see

mark is arrested and eventually convicted on drug charges and manufacturing false documents, including fake ideas in passports for himself and his deceased brother luke, he's sentenced to sixteen months in prison marks as the quote prisons, and I consider it a piss poor way to handle any and all non violent crime. That said it far from the worst thing that ever happened to me end quote, which is really saying the acting it does law incarcerated and newly committed to getting sober mark falls back in love with writing, and he sends batches to his friends and family, and before long his sister sandra encourages him to start a blog from, and these full eventually be published. A book called ink from the pan lab at internal market, as that quote by

writing about everything going on around me as it happened. I learned to live in the moment again, which was entirely different from what I'd been doing for so many years, which is live for the moment. Hmm, that's a good one and quote some mark has remained committed to this idea ever since he still lives in l a where he has carved out a successful career in the film business for himself. Any continues to share personal stories from now must feel like a past life. Eventual mark, tells us life story to Nathaniel pen whose cheek you article, the curious cons of the man who wouldn't die is

clearly heavily cited in this research. This is basically a just a short in the version of that article f, noticeably I'm giving you all the reasons you need to now go read this article re read, the article is widely read shared fond over and it actually wines up being option by a major film studio. Sat there have been incredible leaps and bounds made since the early days of the hiv aids epidemic and today, anti retroviral medications allow people who are hiv positive to live long, healthy lives getting too still remains incredibly important, though so that patients can be. Acted lifesaving treatment and to know how to mitigate spreading the virus. It's also and to point out that the epidemic is not over hiv It continues to be a serious health issue throughout the world, tragically over seven hundred thousand americans have died of aids, ivy aid since the earliest days of the epidemic and millions have passed way worldwide markets

has acknowledged the unlikely nests of his own survival, for whatever reason he somehow escaped death when it seemed all, but certain meanwhile lost so many people. He loves dearly mostly his brother look mark is quoted as saying I would go to prison for another ten years. If I could have Luke back well, maybe not ten, but five m. Which is the perfect siblings, quotations a little rather marcus, the statute of limitations for most of his financial crimes and as of twenty nineteen, He was still making monthly payments towards his outstanding credit card dec. and one question about whether he has any guilt connected to schemes. Mark says quote: I guess I income to charitable causes, because I had this idea that I need to do some sort of robin hood pay back. But I'm not me excuses. It was illegal and and then he adds this quote: there's no proof

What happens in your life could have ever happened any differently, but there's a lot of proof that it could have. We happened this way because that's exactly what happened, that helps me not spend too much time. In regret, there are things I would have differently. If I had to do it all over again, but I don't necessarily regret. Anything end quote and that's that of mark homestead and his brother luke, two men whose lives were up, ended and forever changed by the hiv aids epidemic. Why care and that gray. That was a suggestion by the great hanner creighton. It has everything. That story truly had everything I wanna watch the documentary now like so bad yeah. I was amazed they gotta option that story and, like you're, saying mark That was not the only person that went through that regular people who were facing the brink of the

they are facing the ad yeah? That's wild, what I mean I'm like speechless for once in my pocket life that was sir It was crazy. Also this another to our episode, good, fine god. Fine good advice good and fine, I will thank you guys, listening. We hope you learn something about. The room agnes duration or our own personal anger or credit card fraud of expertise, and it's more of a decent, don't thing yet around the system fixing. System, the laws are made by the law, Workers who are run by billion errors, so it has to change this system, is to change, has to be smashed. You guys can do it you will do it cause you mean still aids, that's right also stay sexy. Don't get murdered We obviously want to cookie,

This has been an exactly right. Production are senior producer, is all a hundred cap or manage producers, Hannah kyle creighton are editor. Is Aristotle oscillate now this said, was mixed by leanna school archer. Our research is our and the clashing and ally l can email. Your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail dot com follow the show on instagram and facebook, at my favorite murder and twitter at my fav murder, goodbye. Listen, follow, leave us a review on amazon, music, apple podcast or wherever you get. Your pipe casts hey, prime. Where did you know that you can listen to my favorite murder early, an ad free on amazon, music, download, the amazon music apt? Today you can support my cave. Or by filling out a survey at wondering, dot, com, slash survey,

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