Congress struck a deal on nearly $900 billion in Covid-19 relief, including a new round of direct payments and help for jobless Americans, families and businesses struggling in the pandemic.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Donald Trump Presidency, is coming to an end in much the same way it began underground.
Has top officials when it comes to Russia. This time is downplaying the severity of the massive cyber hack on government agencies and questioning the
consensus from his own administration that Russia was the culprit, my God could more.
and welcome the morning Joe. It is Monday December twenty four
with us. We have white as Rapporteur for
So I say it press giant and a mere filling in four cases
this morning. And U S national editor at the Vienna
she'll times add loose is with us early this morning periods are already talking, our meares performance is growing.
To early strike you much like Elvis's, first performance on Ed Sullivan. Of course he was
It is up to you
do you know.
then was banned from the waist down.
So are we do the same thing with a mere but other than that good, John or mere? You did a great job. I also perfect person
have here this morning because of course,
one of the most infamous moments of tromp presidency was in Helsinki
when you asked whether he was going
I believe, his intel community, or whether he was gonna, believe Light Amir Putin and unless
say he did.
choose wisely
we had,
the finale of that this weekend to talk about
peo versus tromp. Now and if there's any body
the United States government, our own capital held that agrees with Donald Trump, that this wasn't a russian hack or, first of all, just trying to keep the seat warm
Casey here, and it is probably for the best that I'm shot only from the belt up. That should be standard for all MSNBC programming, but you're right show that the trumpet illustration is sort of ending as it began with
as it being widely deferential to Moscow to Russia
he'd, never punish them or challenge them for the twenty. Sixteen election
We know that he has defied advisers council repeatedly to be tougher on Russia, insisting that he instead
that he believed that a better relationship
reform with Moscow with fighter reboot in your right.
The signature moment was in Helsinki when he decided to
side, with Putin, rather than the? U S, intelligence agencies as to who was responsible for twenty sixteen and now what
yeah he's undercoat, atop adviser just hours later hours after secularists pale. Indeed,
Russia for the cyber hat, which is the consensus of the intense.
its agencies across the from all branches of government. The president cast out
suggested the well, maybe it's China who, of course here
Vilified
handling of the core of the corona virus pandemic
Jen, letting Russia off the hook, suggesting that that they were perhaps not to block
and mystifying advisers, we're not sure what the upside is here for him in his last thirty odd days from
Fasten he's just Doug into this position, and
fusing to change once again. Perhaps endangering
pretty allowing Russia perhaps permission to do
again, and that's that as a final point. Oh that's! The fear here is that this is another act of aggression from Russia. There's going unpunished, and certainly we heard for President Biden, you speak
against it, and perhaps when the by the ministration comes to office they will levy sanctions or some other punishment against
and prudent, but from
white house from this president silence.
And I had a loose
you go down the list of aggression,
actions by Vladimir Putin by Russia and
Donald trumps, either
forgiveness are explanation
or are denial.
And the list is, has gotten so long over the past.
For years over, and I go back to this summer. Finding out that Vladimir Putin
NED put bodies on their heads of american troops in Afghanistan
on hearing the news, thinking or maybe just me
be Donald Trump CAT
a blind eye to this swear. Prudence been caught.
Are trying to kill american troops and paying terrorists
to do so, and yet he did then
he didn't Helsinki. He continues to even now.
It's interesting, I'm Joe you, ass Jonathan them who, in.
Administration
be agreeing with from that.
China, not anybody by Russia, we
now that I'm last week, Michael Flynn was in here
Love is now of he's not in the administration, but if we look at average
administration began.
complaint was, if you like, the first casualty of it. Having am lightly
FBI about his contacts during the transition with the russian ambassador went
looking at the end of the Tramp administration with the very same conviction
I go flame
I am President Trump to use. I guess who don't ask measure, so the insurrection ACT
martial law and so forth,
to overturn the results of this election. So I dont have
special insights into walk.
Putin has over Trump. Why does this strange denies them about
linking Russia does, but I do know that there are other people.
Who are close to Russia and who are also place to trample on these crucial.
very, very important last thirty days where he still has the massive.
Was
I am of the! U S, president. All
the subject of Michael Flynn? President Trump is searching for new ways to undermine the election results. We learn,
that those ideas now reportedly include a Flynn.
The idea of declaring martial law in Sweden,
its and then using a conspiracy theorist to help
returned the election, we'll get to
ongoing coup attempt in just a moment, but first after
eight long months, Congress has finally reached a deal on a nine hundred billion dollar corona virus relief Bell. The bill will include six hundred dollar
meaning a family of four could get up to twenty four
depending on their income, there's all
payments of up to three hundred dollars per week for federal unemployment, benefits which
begin as early as next week. It also includes a twenty five billion dollars in rental assistance and
extension on
fiction moratorium, which was
to run out in days, the Bible
and build does not include a republican priority of liability protections nor one of the Democrats. Priorities have state and local funding voting.
on the bill is expected to come later. Today, let's bring in
political Sidney our course washing in correspondence on and co author of the political playbook honour polymer. With more on this.
tell us so the details of veal, some of the sticking points and
Where do we go from here?.
It's been a long drawn out negotiations as we are all aware, and they, finally, that, alas, bid gas before the end of twenty twenty have come to a deal here, and why did both rider
happy, which is usually happen when these had a big MAC Review come together? I think one of the biggest things it's exactly the fact that we haven't even Steen Text
this bill, even though they are expected to be voting on it in the coming hours. The White House says its point to sign it in the big question remains what few
could there be for any more money coming anymore stimulus coming, the numbers are only gonna get tighter it. Twenty twenty one is that this could really be one of the last packages and relief efforts that Congress is able to do so.
Jonathan, a mere the president wanted more money more than
Six hundred dollars talked about getting becoming
in the process, but really
and so much in the end? And you actually had that by partisan consensus group in the center sorted
Joe Mansion that Mitt Romney driving this from the start?
That's a relief for so many Americans that son this deal is is finally done, though, of course frustration that it took so long
You're right, President Trump really play the hands off role. Treasure sector mnuchin was his so
preventative during these talks, but the present outside of the strait tweet really wasn't part
this, although he almost blew up the process late last week. What he's too wanted of much larger
into the hands of Americans and was told by advisers that simply there
begins in the senate- would not go for that
You know we now, but it does the flag it by Parson agreement has reached the present is expected
sign this, and my question, for you would be we heard from both
the aisle that this deal is a first step for perhaps
second step after what we saw in the spring and others hope
or another package, both sent majority Mcconnell, so we're
plus shimmer, say that more will be needed next year. That of course,
will come under abide them, how easy or frankly, how
How will this be to put together a package like this? Could it be even bigger next time, around
going to be very, very, very difficult. I can't underscore that enough frankly, me with his two months to get this deal done really at the end of the wire, and if you look at the majorities in the house in particular, there is going to be very little weasel room for a speaker, Nancy Policy to get any kind of a deal done, particularly when you look at house Republicans
Two years later, wanting to fight for a majority they're gonna be having that in their state every single day
then, if you tried to suggest a down payment in terms of
things that they didn't get in there. They didn't get that state and local
that they wanted to. But it's hard to see how were what would be the mechanism that would actually force Congress to act and this unless there is some really big economic downturn, political
on a poem. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. Now.
To the wild talk about a special council and even using
martial law to help overturned. The election
and we see news has confirmed that during a meeting inside the oval office on Friday, president from
discussed naming election conspiracy theorist Sidney Power as spare
council to investigate the twenty twenty election
the story. Worse first reported by the New York Times, which says that most of the president's advisers opposed the plan.
Tells NBC News that Whitehouse Council passed
Zeppelin and White House Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows cut the meeting off
because it was going in
an alarming direction. Last
on the far right network news MAX former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, who also port
supported in the meeting floated
idea of seizing voting machines and deploying the military.
to re run. The election in swing states the washing
was the New York Times and the Associated Press reported that Trump asked about
idea during a meeting a source, tells the post
The proposal was shot down by mark meadows and simple lonely.
the President denied the martial law reporting, calling it fake news. The army, however, felt the need to issue a statement. Saint quote there
is no role for the. U S: military in
Determining the outcome of an election according
The times trot
attorney worded Giuliani, participated in that Friday meeting by phone and that he also pushed
back on these special council idea? But that's perhaps because Julia
It focused on his own effort to overturn the election by seizing voting machines axiom
Israel is following up on the reporting by the New York Times that Trump attorney
we'll be Giuliani, called the second
in command at the Department of Homeland Security, to attempt to
says the machines for the trunk can
to inspect.
the conversation between Mr Giuliani and can could you Nellie the acting deputy Secretary
land security took place.
Last week, according to people from
with a discussion,
granted known and unlimited, because they were not authorized to describe it, who tonelli
reportedly told Giuliani that the department has no authority to seize voting machines.
Though it overseas. The cyber security and infrastructure secured
agency or size.
Which is responsible for safeguarding elections the Times
What's it is unclear whether Mr Trump, this facilitated the phone call Julia.
They called could Chanel to push the department to re, examine the machines to find evidence of what the trump
campaign, has called widespread fraud.
Times report our Maggie Haber men tweeted- that attorney sin, Sidney Powell, pitched and executive order to seize the machines during the Friday white as meaning
Spring in New York Times reporter and MSNBC national security? Endless Michaels,
for more on that it is so confused because I thought city Pavel after she said
the law floor had rigged the election with Brian Cowen people. She wasn't part of tea with that centric you're, not my
I am struck by something
Jonah Goldberger out last week, which was basically saying Donald Trump, us
Out of his mind and and
If he had told
public in six months ago. What Donald.
we're going to be doing now there
accused him of having Trop derangement syndrome bet. It has gotten so bad that
It would have been shocked even six months ago, and yet here they
remaining quiet for the most part and and leather,
and not calling him out for this. But I just I just
down what makos reading this is what he has done over the past month or so called for the arrest
Joe Biden and family put pressure on the
party general. His attorney general of the United States to arrest his political opponent when
We find in the polls refuse to guarantee a peaceful transfer of power
now this weekend we hear about the call
four martial law
and in fact the president asking whether you could call martial law talking
the seizing of voting machines, the
using of republican governors.
Terry of states and local officials of being in a conspiracy with Hugo Chavez and Joseph Stalin and whoever Elles
and getting to the point where it yes liberals
this weekend? The defenders of the republic or Kin Coochie, Nellie and more men,
I was thinking about that for a moment, but Michael, it is getting actually to the point where you just wonder. If we should just get rid of
twenty fifth amendment, because at any other time any
the same time it would be used to temporarily remove a present from office if he were talking about
these sort of thanks. Look, I think there is is a fact at this point
at. If Donald Trump could he would steal the election and he would stay there regardless of anything else, and that peace
We only being held back my folk
Cochin Alley and meadows. As you were saying who,
truly loyalists those are not sorted
John, Kelly's or Don began of earlier of the administration. Those are folks that had been around,
the president for four years and were really true supporters of him, but are clear
the unwilling
go along with this passive bologna who authored
some of those you know very
outlandish documents defending the president during impede
These are not. You know me
earlier containers of the administration. This is true
play the last line of
it's that are still around tromp and me. So
the symmetry here the need book end of Michael Flynn,
the president's first national security adviser back in
Oval office too, to the fake provided
opinion, if not advise the president
How to use
Martial law these incredibly, I guess for lack of a better word, creative ways of trying to overturn the election Michael
when the arrears
Ty back to Russia, Michael Flynn, who we still do not know why
He lied about his contacts with the russian ambassador microphones.
And who bill bar
following the lead of sick of of his lawyer,
pow going to Court
To throw out his case too?
they just thrown it out. You know,
sort of wrapped up into wine. With thirty days left in trumps. Administration
Jonathan Le Maire. I mean correct me if I'm wrong that this debate is is beyond sanity.
absolutely pushing the norms of our democracy and and dangerous and annex unexpected
Unchartered territories,
What would inspire someone around? The present
to do more, not to be urging people too
vote. The twenty fifth amendment to it makes me ask questions: I can
President pardon himself, or does he have to act crazy enough to get booted out. So we can get pardoned by someone else like what could be at play here, which
number one. Have the people around him not acting in a serious way about this behaviour?
which is
at the very least undemocratic.
And at the very most, something that is probably
not something I should say on television yet and
Who else would be the motivation for this behaviour when this
Action is so clearly over and I think we need a
make it at thirty days is a long time. He still president areas a long time to do a lot of damage. He's president, for thirty more days- and I think we to your point- You'Re- we
some that meeting on Friday, we did see some advisers try to push back to of staff meadows. The widest council include,
but there's not many voices left in that White House. This is
the president's circle has grown ever smaller. He is someone who is listening.
Creasy lightly to the likes of Michael Flynn and regionally Ani. There aren't many aid
have a zero shortly could sway him to get it to change course in that building
are, we reported over the weekend there's going alarm among people close the president,
say he has grown more willing to embrace outlandish conspiracy theories that he has been sort of convinced in recent weeks that indeed this election
stolen for him than at the beginning of this fight that it was more powerful
it was not showing a supporters that he was combating it, but there is an acknowledgement that he indeed did lose Joe Biden and now he's talk
self into the idea that maybe hasn't
Michael. I wanted to ask you. We know the one thing that was discussed on Friday was
you have any power being appointed some
a special council to look into election far below the presidency also flowed the idea of a special council being
wanted to look into Hunter Biden. The President Elect son, just the president himself. Can you clear this up to see if the authority to do
that, or is that something has to be done in a special council through the department,
ass. The snow is re indication that you're William Bars in his last days and then it's gonna be act. Internal Jeffrey Rosen that Rosen
Do that or the president perhaps
Placing with someone who might also
many things die from tests the system in ways that I don't think that we often thought it was. So we have to sort of real
fuckin and try to re. Imagine the government playbook to understand whether something like this could happen. I ain't
sort of assessment that the present
could not appoint a special council unilaterally on his. The attorney general would need to do that. The president get just sign and executive order. Saying here is my:
special council so well
The question is: is that
attorney general wouldn't do that. What would the president to so the prince
could replace his attorney general if he did not think that
attorney. General was doing as he wanted to trump could
fire. His attorney general, whoever that is, and try and get some one in that position to
do they have to go through with this, and
You know some history of this in any Trump administration, where the president,
I wanted the Justice Department to take specific actions that he himself, the president, cannot
do, despite when he thinks he's not the countries
law enforcement officer? That's that's! The attorney general and
ultimately the White House, lawyers have determined indeed
an indifferent cases for the president that if he
it's not like what the attorney general's doing. He can't do it himself. He has to replace
the attorney General Michael's words,
author of the great book, Donald Trump versus the United States. Thank you so much
for being with us this morning, greatly appreciated as always and Ed lose. You think back to
Richard Nixon crimes
during Watergate
Some of the things that were caught on tape,
casting the taping, a political opponents, wiretapping, afore
go opponents and you can
that too Donald Trump openly saying this weekend, talking
up is suggesting a coup
though the United States Military,
comes onto the streets and and
and voting machines are seized. They have a clue.
and they re run. The election in swing states were Donald Trump lost and suddenly.
What Nixon was doing seems like a sort of spring picnic, and why Donald
is doing, sounds
fully familiar. No, what we ve got used to right wing and left wing strongman across the globe doing
the past thirty forty years
yeah, I'm into his gives a reverse it it is. Can much was the fact that you know you have the chiefs of the army and people in the Pentagon, seated, generals, disavowing anymore
actually role anymore
I can electoral outcome is both
extremely alarming levels.
Slightly reassuring. You don't get you don't get military chiefs in Russia issuing statements like that and keeping their jobs it
not inconceivable, that tramp does formally go to the pan.
gone to the chapel joint cheese and asked
What are the acting defend, separate asks for the insurrection ACT and the next
she days anything is possible. We know that
there is no circumstance in which you will admit to being a lose that we know from Mary Trump. His knee somewhat sheets told us about trumped up, bringing that that was what friend, Trump schooled him in
and we also know that
is going to do anything
its leverage for the past
presidential legal
cases against him. He needs control of the Republican Party. I guess the difference with the next. An era is that Republicans participated with Democrats
in reforming government. After next we have the church committee and groups like that.
Efforts like that,
I don't really see this republican Party today as
having any appetite to joining
We kind of inquiry as
the abuse of power under President tromp. I might be wrong, but I think
the real difference between makes men Trump is the Republican Party. It has changed radically
or I still I had a morning Joe countries around the world shut off from travel to and from great Britain after a new strain of corona virus was detected there.
Are you what scientists know about at here watching morning Joe could be right back
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The UK, where Prime Minister Boris Johnson imposed to lockdown in several areas, including the London, impacting about a third of the population there
Some warn that Britain,
dealing with a new covered nineteen strain, that's up to seventy percent more infectious and that he was
scrapping plans to allow household to mix for Christmas.
Given the early evidence we have on this
variant of the virus, the potential risk it poses
it is with a very heavy heart. I must tell you we cannot continue with Christmas as planned.
over the weekend, countries across Europe raised to ban travel from the UK. Canada halted flights for twenty
seventy two hours New York
Governor Andrew Cuomo is calling for a similar ban on travel from the United
damn add lose this new strain of the corona virus sounds so ominous what more
you tell us about the travel bans and
it's going on in the UK right now as it pertains to corona virus and how people are really
funding to this news.
I think they were responding very badly, aiming biased Johnson. It had promised them that Christmas
the council as the language
goes in Britain at the moment at right
until you days ago. In any, then, he announced this new cycle, tat for which is a man
Some level of restriction Party
because of this so called mutant, I'm strain of
covered nineteen.
And the Planet
a backlash against Johnson said a failure to foresee these measures.
Has been huge but more of a man. It's prompted
rest of Europe cut Britain to capture
well from Britain, but even freight from Britain
the same time as as we ve got the failures
far to conclude any deal for Britain's
exit from Europe, which happens on January, the first, if you get a no deal breaks it
written crashing out ways
a coinciding with these travel bans on Britain,
You're saying when I guess today went to substances is the longest night where wherein the longest night at the moment in Britain, this is an extraordinary crisis,
and it's hard to see how far Johnson's going to get out of it.
well, I will move national. Let us on the vaccine, President Elect Joe Biden and Doktor Jill Biden will receive the first doses of the Pfizer Coco
ten vaccine in Delaware today the shots
be administered in public, as the President elect hopes to send
a clear message to the american people that the
seen as safe. Vice president
come Le. Harris has said to receive her first. Does that the vaccine next week
That calm says these centres for Disease Control and Prevention Advisory Committee issued its next set of rights.
Conditions for who will bring
the vaccine. People
Seventy five and older, along with essential workers, will be next in line following health care work
Ferris and those in assisted living centres. This group, deemed
is one be includes first responders, such as firefighters and police officers, teachers postal
curse and others altogether.
About forty nine million people. The round is expire.
It to start in the coming weeks after the CDC grants. Final approval
meanwhile, the first shipments of the Medina vaccine are in transit this morning, as the
First line of defence against the corona virus. Take shape distribution
The vaccine began yesterday just two days after receiving emergency use authorization from the food and
like Administration, Madonna
be shipping its vaccine nationwide through the healthcare supply chain management. Company MC, which says
that initial deliveries should arrive by today. Now, according
Operation warp speed officials and nearly six million doses of the more definite,
I've seen have been designated for distribution to more than
two hundred different locations across the country, the Turner and
dissipates, that twenty million doses of its vaccine will be delivered
by the end of the year,
running us Now- is Doctor Peter Hotels, dean of the National school of tropical medicine at bail or college of Medicine and Co. Director of the Texas Children's hospital centre for
Maxine development. It's great,
Have you back on the show? This is hopeful
we're looking at me?
from from what I just the news.
Just delivered, maybe a three month window here to get the vaccine.
To all these first line of defence folks
Look at sir. It's a pretty big undertaking, but you know we ve done it before we be role at eighty five million doses of influenza vaccine
we are not. This is a bit more complicated because of the freezer requirements, but the hope is that we can move pretty quickly now with the Madonna vaccine, which does not require that minus hundred degree freezer.
You're, just just the either, if it could be
sort of refrigerator temperatures for a month and and and if not at minus twenty degrees which typical hustle freeze or so so there is some optimism that will be able to do that. I think the only thing I would say is that we
and from the diagnostic testing that that our health system can handle a lot of complexity. So I worry that about making these guidelines overly fussy are overly stir. Overly stringent when we can't operation was so trying to catch up
together the different headlines? This morning we have a band of travel and the UK dealing with a more stronger strain
of the corona virus sets more contagious
Do we know you heard about this and enters the vaccine? Do we note the vaccine covers? It, then? Is that a dumb
John, I just wondering
these headlines fit together. Now
asked actually the two most important questions, and so the story on the UK is this: are there they ve noticed initially set in the South EAST of England and can't and then in London? And now in Wales, in Scotland increasing
replacement with specific
color lineage, what they actually qualify religion at a cluster of virus. That has several mutations, including some better in the part of the virus. That talks with our host tissues by the receptor binding domain and the fact that it seems to be appearing in increasing frequency in throughout the UK gives people part
were concerned that maybe it's out competing all the other lineages is not really a true strain as such in and for that reason, based on modeling projections, they think this may be a more transmissible version of the virus, not necessarily more suit more severe disease, but were more transmissible. That's not based on any experimental evidence, as far as I know about transmits ability, it's all based on concrete projection and modeling, but it was enough, although paw, not from a concern that it gave the british Prime minister pause to say, look, I'm a word were worried enough about it. We want to get ahead of it. We don't want to find out about this after the fact how effective the travel bans will be, it's it's really hard to say be because we ve learned how quickly this virus travels across the
Well done my we. It took us weeks, for instance, to find that the covered nineteen virus, the size torrent of ours, too, had entered New York City for from Europe. So so little,
we'll see how this Panza we'll get some experimental evidence, hopefully pretty soon. I do not think a little effect. The vaccine I'll take it doesn't look like uptake, looks like and the effectiveness. I think it looks as though it's a small enough change that the current vaccines will still work.
In national school of tropical medicine at paler College of Medicine, Doktor Peter hotels. Thank you so much and coming up
Tromp finally breaks his silence on the russian cyber attack against the? U S, but instead of downplaying the attack the questions whether Russia was involved,
well dig into that next morning, Joe hey Guys Willie, guys tier, reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast on this week's episode
I get together with Oscar nominated actress, Turingi P Hansen, to talk about her new series in using our platform to shine a light on mental health. You can listen to our full conversation right now. On the Sunday sit down, podcast get it for free were,
you download yours at present has obliged part when it comes to Russia, and so you can expect
That's the response and he would have wanted
scores? Is Russia Action,
impunity with regard to the cyber attacks Gus. They don't think we're
capacity to respond and like measure they all
recognise that our defence is inadequate
was republican, Senator Mitt, Romney reacting to president trumps comments on Sunday. Russian cyber attack against the federal government Romney was refer
ring to trumps series of tweets on Saturday, in which he wrote in part cyberattack. It's far greater in the face
news media event in actuality, I've been fully brave than ever
as well under Control Russia, Russia, Russia, is the priority. Chit chat
anything happens. This is yet another
sample of the president undercutting his top officials when it comes to Russia here is,
Secretary of State, my palm peo. Clearly confirming
the vast hack, a view
a federal agencies is linked to Moscow, a significant effort,
you a piece of third party software to essentially in bed,
inside of U S, government systems and allow appear systems of private companies and companies and governments across the world as while. This was a very significant effort, and I think it the case that now we can say pretty clearly, but it was the rushes that engaged in this activity,
President Trump also falsely tied voting machines to the cyber attack, to which the former director of cyber security and infrastructure security,
can see Chris Crabs tweeted in response, the proof is in the paper
can audit or recount again to confirm the outcome like they did and
Georgia and Michigan, and
content and
So you can't hack paper,
joining us now, president of the council, on foreign relations and author of the book, the world, a brief introduction Richard US and former? U S ambassador to Sweden under President Obama Mark Brzezinski, whose
than the National Security Council staff under President Clinton as director,
russian and duration affairs and the financial times at loosened the peace?
The mirror are still with us as well and Joe. I and I appreciate Mitt Romney to stepping out. So it's certainly not criticizing here, but blind spot is at this point in
statement of blind spot to Russia is not what the president has there
some connection with Russia. That constantly has him defending Vladimir
demanding an ultra. We ve talked about Helsinki
Jonathan Ass, a question and he said he trusted the
KGB agent more than he trusted you
Intel agencies, you could talk about the bodies,
that would put on american soldiers heads and yet the president did want to eat
talk about called that fake news. Now, we're being told
this massive breach by the Russians was also fake news
when in fact you heard what
Hey said: Yosemite also it Tom Sparser Tunnel, Transformer homeland security adviser talking about this
sweeping and it will take years to nose for certain which read networks, Russians control, on which one say just occupy the access
Russians now enjoy can be far more than simply spying. It is widespread Republicans and Democrats across Washington.
no that and the only person,
Once again, it was
defending the Russians is Donald Trump,
So Richard eyes talk about the scope of this hack and Y Y, see what's the possibility for damage and what should I do.
It is responsible for what is clearly now. Why
read those in captured gold, so many central critical. U S. Agencies and companies
compromise here. So this this is it a serious penetration? What I think really mean
matters is whether the penetration was for purposes of espionage, collect mature, which is bad, but it's one thing as opposed to the purpose of disrupting operations and that that's a different qualitative
that, and I don't think we know that as yet.
Mainly espionage, then armies
the larger policy is to make ourselves by increasing protection. The idea
we're so vulnerable, as it is outrageous. If, however, the Russians
going beyond espionage. If it's actually today
truck? Our did the ability of these agencies that that's an offensive action, and that requires us not simply to protect better, but also to go on the offensive.
Do things that would hurt Russia, this could be symmetrical going against their digital
the targets or,
be asymmetrical, using sanctions or other tools.
So ambassador marked Brzezinski? What do we do? Naxa with this
information in front of us with information over the past four years, Donald
the lack of policy on Russia
the Obama administration, and there are pushing for a reset that ended. Disastrously you can look back,
the Bush administration under estimating time and again Vladimir Putin's designs on countries.
hey I'm talking about looking into his eyes and seeing is so, we ve had three
then to discharge the intentions of light, a mere Putin and the twenty
centuries had a free ride for one fifth of this century. Why? What does show by me
what does what is a binding policy need to do to turn a page
on twenty years of failure,
the starting point for the bind administration. Is that
proper administration has left no policy on Russia there
been a wink wing nodded.
relationship between Trump and Putin?
the origins of which I think only historians ultimately will share with us. But it's been
strange dissonance between our president at the tippy top of the: U S, government and the bureaucracy
which has been in part geared towards the
Goin sanctions, sanctions and enforcing sanctions on Russia for what it
in Crimea, for the poisonings in London and so forth.
Forward. The good news is that their
a new sheriff in town.
Does not need to be introduced to the russian leadership and who has decades
experience in
stay in Russia, and that is present election
Biden and his team, I mean it's important to remember that Joe Biden was
started being the ranking member of the Senate Formulations Committee in ninety
ninety seven, his secretary,
Peter, the Secretary of State, Tony Blinkin, was on
National Security Council staff covering Europe will
Putin, ascended from AIDS,
the position in Saint Petersburg to being Prime Minister of Raw
in two thousand, these folks have
we need each other. They know
we shudder, and so you don't have a kind of it. You know.
Asked in the woods approach that can be manipulated at by at the typical
going forward. We ve heard from
President elect that there's going to be
careful assessment. Not only
Russia is recent actions, but it s a long term. Actions during the Trump administration, as well
Joe. You mentioned the bounties on: U S: soldiers in afghan
student, perhaps deployed by them
who's. That is appalling and I quote: cost imposition strategy will be put in place,
new administration that will be fact base, and
address and disciplined. That's good news
that will take a lot of work to re, establish strategic partnerships and and realign itself again with the relationship with Russia and its allies at loose.
Should America team up with this allies across the world, especially
attaining
to Russia, maybe even to contain Russia. When I think of that
That would just be to reinforce NATO, which is better
the easily done
tramper. Clearly,
undermine NATO and was disrespect for the key NATO allies and binding
without doing very much at all, can reassure those same allies that the American that they want is back. The will
difficulties over things like the Nord Stream pipeline. That's a gas pipeline. That's gonna be built to Germany, which I'm Trump
was furious, remains furious about and which
by an administration is probably not gonna, look very kindly on because it gives Putin average. But question I wanted to ask Mr Richard was
over about sanctions.
Is what is at the coming by an administration can do
leader, TAT Putin- will make him pay for this, but
retiring from doing it again.
let's move easier, said than done and again. I do think that there needs to be a distinction between the rest
repairing out espionage or something more
operational, but the term
she's going to be tough here, we can try
use digital space to embarrass bitten
I don't mind saying things: what does he care most about is rule to other things,
can point out about his private wealth.
That are embarrassing got to him all the things we can do to four
help the russian opposition. The basic
they try to weaken Putin's hold, are on our side,
bidding NATO, as you said, seems to me also are essential, but but this is this is
at the end of the day, we are far more dependent as an economy and as a society
on the digital and internet domain
That, then, is Russia. Our economy,
incomparably larger and more complex blushes- is largely oil and gas. So an
reset of responses probably won't get
Do the determined- and we have to look at the entire
our relationship and ask yourself what are the pressure points
in the Middle EAST,
Crane elsewhere in Europe and most of all at home against beaten in order to get him to think twice about can
in doing this sort of behaviour mark
the conversation so far rightly, is on russian Putin what the United States response should be, but Russia's, not the only country out of the doesn't like us and certainly in a hack like this, shows the vulnerabilities of the U S
cyber security system. There are other nations that perhaps could pull off.
something similar. So I'm gonna get you away and on that please,
Who else should worry about in inward that what can the Eu S do matches deterrent
Putin blockaded reinforce their
our own system. So suddenly this doesn't happen again. Perhaps next time a country not looking just for espionage but who may look to take a bad action sure will
It's I'm sure the new team under Biden we'll be thinking
what are the vulnerabilities first of all of
aggressors towards us, like Russia, and it's important to remember that Putin is not invulnerable. Russia's
dependent economy is struggling and as the economy struggles, so does prudence popular
Russia will have parliamentary elections in September. Novelty has as rich
and to Russia from Germany, after almost
been assassinated through poisoning by Putin?
he's going to be running and he's very popular in the russian regions, which span eleven time zones. Now then,
your team problem
they will not want to front confrontation, one with Russia and one with China.
You ask what could be done
the other source of cyber attacks and it could be China
both of those countries are not totally unhappy when we, the Americans, are tied up in knots and cyber
Ruction is a great way of doing that, and so it will be a little
other balancing act on how
handled these different
the challenges that are seeking to upset our system
Richard Ass and Mark Brzezinski. Thank you both and add loose. Thank you as well great conversation and still ahead, chief White House Course,
and for the New York Times, Peter Baker joins us with his latest reporting
and nine months after passing, the first
run a virus stimulus bill Congress Final,
strikes a deal on round to mornings.
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Transcript generated on 2020-12-21.