I hope one thing is clear: after this week, I never give up I believe I can can. new to fight, maybe in a different manner? I will not run, bigger again I'll. Have the conference pick somebody else all right. What a difference nine months makes Kevin Mccarthy's. Speakership is over after a small group of far right, republicans joined all Democrats in voting to remove him we'll go ro, what led to his undoing and what's next for the house after a true kay, chaotic historic day on capital hill, plus the other big story. We are following this morning, Donald trump now under a guy quarter in his civil fraud trial for what he posted on

social media will go through what the consequence this could be if he violates judges ruling a five day in court for the former president good morning and welcome to morning Joe, it is Wednesday October fourth the Joe well I and may we have those two way to worley what has been achieved. The politico than the mere senior writer for the dispatch day that Drucker and co hosts of show times the circus farmer white. Does director occasions to president obama jennifer ball Mary, and basin news national affairs analysed john. and willie we obviously jesse absolute chaos in the house. We I think the wall street journal editorial page, put it perfectly the lead editorial republicans cut off their own heads. I will get a little bed bite,

is bigger stories, that is to say, what's unfolding in the end in court. in new york state he also mass people that have known donald trump for a very long time sake this getting the him in a way that none of the An trials have gotten to him and I think it's starting to show This? Is it an entire identity? Isn't it the big shot, business man? This is how he was elected president. This is how we became famous all of those things

weakening, stripped from him as we watch this trial unfold, and now the judge reminding him yesterday, you cannot go after put in a public way, members of the court's witnesses, other people, that's not how this works. It doesn't matter who you are, who you think you are? You cannot attack people associated with this trial in a public way, so we're gonna dig deep into that trial in just a moment, but we do want to begin this morning with that history that was made in the house of representatives on this vote. The years are to sixteen The names are to ten the rest. pollution is adopted without action. The motion to reconsider is late the table, the office of speaker of the house. The united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant

and just like that last night, congressman Kevin Mccarthy, ousted as house speaker, that's the first time in history, a speaker has been removed through a no confidence vote, the first time ever. The final tally to sixteen to two ten with eight republicans, you see them they're breaking from their party. To oust mccarthy, after a far right republican congressmen introduce the motion to remove mccarthy on Monday after his ouster be now former speaker spoke to report. About his removal? I don't regret standing up for choosing govern it over grievance. It is my responsibility. my job, I do not regret negotiating government is designed to find compromise. but may I lost the vote today, but, as I out of this chamber, I feel fortunate to have served the american people. I leave the speakers,

with a sense of pride accomplishment and, yes, optimism. I fought for what I believe in and I believe in this country of america. My goals have not changed I believe I can continue to fight, maybe in a different manner. I will not run for speaker again I'll. Have the conference pick somebody else pride accomplishment and optimism says Kevin Mccarthy. So now congressmen, Patrick MC henry of north carolina, becomes the speaker protests. The Kennedy was chosen from a list of potential successes that have been submitted by mccarthy back in january to the house clerk. He is an ally of mccarthy's, since two thousand three house rules have required the speaker to submit a list of names of members to act in the case of his or her vacancy republic is now will hold a speaker candidate forum next tuesday, for they can ford for the full house. Election next

wednesday. So a week from today is when they will vote for the next house. you're so Joe, two hundred seventy days, nine months, Kevin Mccarthy lasted, and this all goes back to something we talked about the day. It happened that fifteenth vote, in order to become how speaker he had to agree to the rule. One member of the house of representatives could raise a motion to vacate the chair. A lot of people said: oh, that's never going to happen. We said, don't be so sure, and here we are today the other thing to note, no matter how well loyal. You are to Donald trump, no matter how you rush down to mar a lago to rehab his reputation. After said january, six, he ain't coming avian. The end loyalty is a one way street there he's been a one way street and and and When I really was a fait accompli as soon as he agreed to one person being able Kevin Mccarthy one person being able to knock em out That's just bluntly: that's how we random gingrich other town at the end of eighteen, ninety eight, but I

It is amazing, It is amazing that the Republicans hold one branch of government, one branch of government- that the house half of a branch of government and its just absolute chaos. Man. This, and, I must say perhaps. You file this reminder letting com hence prevail, but to go on a one way. reset- I'm sorry you dont have here. You know yeah together any better than that. gone one week. Recess, so they can get their thoughts together, everything that is going on in this country little mare when they come back here, still going to have ninety six percent of the carcass enraged at the people who do There's really just weird bizarre reasons. They don't line up. They can say what they want to say. They can talk about the budget. They're lying Keziah,

retired about the budgetary spending before they can talk about broken promise. So wall. Her journal said you know therein tacking mccarthy, for not pass in enough appropriation bills when they were the ones and stop them from passing the appropriation bills hears it echoing line, though the owl stir, captures the degree the state of the republican party in this area. of rage that, from the very Conservative wall street journal editorial page drawing their hands out this morning, like most lookin saying why in the hell is going on in war she didn t see with Republicans yeah, it's so import that we say this is not the house of representatives and chaos. This is the republicans in the house in chaos. And democrats. Yesterday I made the decision they work and to save mccarthy. They didn't appreciate how,

bad mouth them in a series of tv interviews over the weekend after they came to his aid with a continuing resolution, he couldn't have passed it without them. We showed that photograph he took with donald trump, in january of twenty twenty wants to couple weeks after january sixth, which started trumpet imitation within the geo p. That was the one moment. Perhaps the party could have cut ties with them. We see now, of course, the if not, there, also angry about the impeach of inquiry. The mccarthy commission into President Biden and mccarthy has been hanging by a thread for awhile matt gates, and others will do this practically easy move to call for a motion to vacate vacate to get what they want for mccarthy and it Never enough somewhat closer mccarthy estuary told me it was like Go shooting with terrorists and there was never able to Saturday five thousand, there's pure fury within the geo p against gates and others who move to vacate mccarthy to oust mccarthy carthage

read the were last. I realized tat. He had no path to holding his speakership. There had been some thought he might fight to keep it even after the motion to vacate he walked away, and now Joe republicans appear. The house goes out of session for weak worley forty odd days until the government runs out of funding. Again so that just now ops here, the the drama So just the disarray and chaos brought forth by republicans imagine is somebody source. Sang it did Jonathan Amir. What what many people have said is that they are like terrorists, but political terrorists and political terrorists without any demands. I remember a question being asked one of them when they said what else you want from Kevin Mccarthy back when the first was going back in january, or will we really get nothing else to ask of leah it's there? they're, just again wall street journal says member

in safe seats and that's the thing all of these members are in safe seats. prison. Save seeds can fuel they're all fund raising careers declaiming to quote fight against all and sundry, without doing any of the hard work to accomplish what they claim to be fighting for we ve been talking about how the republican parties but turned under donald trump. into the party of gestures this is the ultimate gesture, shutting down the united states. How so representatives and cynical fund, raising letters, lol you're doing it when you have no path forward with ninety six percent of the republican conference is against you, and yet just four percent are able to shut down the house and fun, raise off of it. Right and that's you know, that's the sign of that. That's what's really really puts if I'm gonna. What's going on here, gentlemen, I have heard of it.

Twenty four twenty four hours or how many hours in small car mccarthy's fall repeated invocation of the notion that this republic and civil war is that our We can civil war. That's that's not the moderate way against the conservative weighing the establishment. We against the, though the insurgent wing. This is a party that is is not its not because the is are so deep. There has been this kind of logical inbreeding. This is an argument over tactics of what has happened: over the course of an object, and what's happened over the course of the the take over of the party by trump and the mega wing that has become the whole of the party, is that all of these people, who are so mad at met gates and the other seven republicans who voted to two to two I said in the house into this chaos and take down cut mccarthy. They have catered too that wing over Over and over again, they have never, they have given it everything at once, and you know when you keep feeding the most

the monster just get stronger and hungrier, and more and more ravenous and more willing to do it. It's gonna do for whatever reason, Kevin Mccarthy didn't lose, because he made a deal with the devil he showed Matt gates back in February january. He sat. Basically, I won't do anything to be speaker of the and the one thing joe you know is that when it comes to political power, leadership is that as soon as you can t, you show the other side you're willing to do anything, there's! No, why you won't cross there's no principle, you won't compromise that will do anything to get the thing you want. You know You will not have that thing for very long, and that is the peace. The perfect symbol of what's happened with this entire ideological. Take over the parties kaput waited to the gates of the world and donald, but the problem donald trump, and now they are in there. they're in their thrall, those those people who represent them. The most is still true version have all the power and its bonkers

yeah is voluntary and really John is so right. He wanted it too much you care, What a position that might you can't give away everything use yourself up for failure, and it is one of the things I learned in congress early on when some senior member one into a point me to want a task force, and I had a maid look at our and said what you can Do this unless you're set up to succeed, they have you said to fail. It was a really great lesson. You dont wine and jump at the first offer. You wait when thou We're comes and its, and now he now you got an ability to actually crew see that the tasks that you want to succeed at cavern are they we all know it. We all set it in real time, was so desperate to be speaker of the house that

He set himself up from failure and boy, it melted down yesterday May you want a job so bad, but what is the job exactly? He was set up for his speakership too, he held in the hands of one member and that's it What happened yesterday, one member took him out, got seven other people to come with him in Jen palmary part of that when mccarthy needed is survive because of that because he knew he didn't have enough republican votes from this insurgent groups he needed. we're crafts Alp amounts. John just did a good job. detailing the reasons why Democrats ultimately said you know what we're not going it's a van that you just open an impeachment inquiry. You authorize an impeachment inquiry into President Biden with no evidence that he did anything whatsoever. Mccarthy, you kind of walked away from a deal we had on the budget on and on and on, and they said you know what we're not going to save your job. You've got to put in the work and build a relationship for us to do that, and they said no.

Yeah. I was on the hill yesterday I talked to a lot of moderate democrats and asked them and said you know. Was this a tough call on your part to not back mccarthy, because arguably chaotic good and they make it in they may end up with a worse speaker. Then mccarthy and everyone said no like it was clear from the start that the democratic caucus was united in it wasn't pay partisanship it wasn't like. Oh, he was mean to us on face the nation. It was weak I trust the sky in how we make deals with them. He walks away they made the deal with them in the spring ted, pass a dad limit. on spending. He walked away from mad. You know and an eight they just really Ultimately, we can't save Kevin Mccarthy. I also just think as a practical matter, it would not have worked ever pot of democrats yesterday started voting for Kevin Mccarthy. What would have happened, I think republicans would have walked away from him right. the house in denmark house democrats cannot prop up a republican speaker.

If that also known as hand, we're gonna work Jim. Let's really quickly here, like let's talk about what you just said about Kevin Mccarthy, not being able to be trusted because, while the bs you hear coming out of Why- washington, d c and all the bs you hear about like coming from. From talk, show and podcast and everything else. You would think that everybody in congress and everybody washington lies to each other and everybody congress, nobody, washington, hates each other, It's all show bills for the most part they don't. now members of their own party hate each other. It's a very weird thing, Fine, too strong senators from the same state always said. They always hated each other but they'll majestic its competition friend. But I don't remember again going back to a lesson learned in congress. I I I remember very explicitly a guy went up on the floor and offered amendment after

opposition in the caucus that standing wasn't go in the conference. He wasn't gonna, do it that guy was told for the rest of his career. Nobody, Nobody would trust that guy gives a you can say, there's honor among thieves or whatever, but it's like being a lawyer in a small town Why do another lawyer Because of your lie to another lawyer. Nobody in that legal community will ever trust you again so that it is, It is a strange thing that cabin mccarthy made so many promises that members of The party say he didn't give. You can't survive that you just can't survive a policy exercise you got it your word, the hell, is this: very small boat everybody's rowing in and you know too republicans who voted against Nancy, mace and timber chad, who I have you both of them. yesterday they

for him fifteen times to be speaker in january, and each of them, the away. I mean virtue with really upset about spending. He also You know about like that that see our deal in just about spending in general and didn't see, didn't see it getting under control. He was on cnn on tuesday night and said he needed to pray over his decision about whether or not he was going to vote for mccarthy They call him the next day was what kind of condescended likes it did. The lord answer, prayer and merchants like shit, bad sure did. I am not voting for you. You know: Nancy maize felt like she had been missing misled by him and on a number of issues, including issues related to mean approached post row, abortion- and you know that two walked away from him as well for very different reasons where we have a lot to get to hear, including donald trump, having a gag order issued on him in that case is going from bad to worse morning, but we're me I can sixty seconds and where we can

I can sixty seconds, I'm gonna have David dropped take us inside the republican conference tell us what happened. Snipe and also tell us line to be the next speaker of the house that in sixty seconds there comes a point when a political stud. exploits a humanitarian crisis, MSNBC phones presents Martha's vineyard versus dissenters. the story of the migrants flowing to the picturesque new england island, the community they took them in and the florida governor behind it all This vineyard versus dissent is part of the turning point military series from executive producer trevor. Nor sunday ten pm eastern on MSNBC and streaming. Peacock I'm msnbc alley. Belgian a book banning epidemic is infill trading, our classrooms with fifteen hundred titles band. Last year alone, each week on my part, gasped, she band book club, a different author joins me to discuss them

and book like Margaret atwood glory, hoss Anderson and many more using books, that's how we share wisdom, our values, that's how we take our country to the place. It should be a lucid novell, she'd been club now on amazon, music, new episodes, thursdays, I don't have a heart of advice from my house colleagues other than this- follow your heart, but take your brain with you the american people, expect us to govern and in order to govern you have to have a leadership, and you ve got a stick with that leadership. To give that leadership a chance. But all show advise my house colleagues to be and take their marriage,

wait, a minute that was fabulous non every level and diverse and parliament is good, no you're value advice. I have to write that down, follow your heart, but take your brain where's kind allowing James, proud, or so I will add, exactly wanted to be a novelist pursued it, but he kept his job. That was our public and senator John candidate louisiana. But that assessment past republicans and we're gonna talk about why democrats did what they did. But you have a lot to catholic David David, and I saw you yesterday talking about the caucasus rightly rage. They were, but at a small handful of people blue things up, and I bet muscle and we're saying, oh what the wall street journal editorial saying. Meanwhile, the house, frozen the gene, p majority is weaker and its ability and policy victories has been undermined, oversight of the I did ministration will stop republican

swing districts, obviously in trouble crazy, laughed and the crazy right are cheering No one else is David. How how enraged are the republicans at these? These few hold out that, basically blew up. Their majority in turned were actually turn the house over the democrats for now look jill Think think, what's clear is that a number of house republicans are extremely angry, what's unclear whether they plan to at least try to do anything about it. I think we have to say back and understand that this is not a moderate versus conservative battle, most house republicans- and I mean the vast majority- are as conservative as the next republican philosophically and would like govern that way, but there is a difference between the pragmatists who want our who understand they have to govern, and then that means they have to make choices and divided government.

And those who want to fight for its own sake and have unrealistic expectations about what's possible, and so, as I was talking to republicans yesterday around washington, some of them who were extremely upset with the small group that up ended everything said there has to be paid back. There to be consequences. To this behaviour to make sure it never happens again and that the rules, given that the next speaker will live under. To be a normal rules package that gives them running room and one of the things that we simply don't know we're guard through the next speaker is, is whether they are going to have any more room to lead and cameroon and Kevin Mccarthy Had you I've I've covered Kevin mccarthy for more than twenty years. I was in Sacramento. Is a club reporter come in there? Well for your legislature when he was a freshman, assemblymen, there have always been complaints that he tries to get from one day to the next, without fear,

about how all of the promised, or deals you makes are going to work together and That may be fair. It made It may not be fair, but one thing that you- and I know it's true- is that what happened yesterday has really. Building in the party it's in the house of representatives from more than a decade. You ve had were cows members who have wanted me. or out of divided government than is humanly possible because, whatever republicans want to think about Democrats and their policies they're. Not pushover is just like republicans. Aren't pushover is, when you gonna like to present the united states when you're the Senate majority leader when you're the house nigger you care, much about your stuff, as republicans do about theirs and yet pushed by the conservative media push by party leaders like donald trump, they ve been told, no just fine, just fight hold out and if you just fine

then the other side's gonna capitulating, you're gonna, get everything you want, and that's just simply not the case so forty days from now or by the time they choose a new speaker. Forty days after that, when it's time to work with a democratic senate and a democratic white house to fund the government and a whole host of priorities that the americans, You say they want. Will the new speaker be given the latitude to cut compromise. Says that give Republican some lines, but yes also give democrats something we don't know. The answer to that. it's just the reality, David, sir. I have warned the president or two and and incoming members of of of white. staffs in senior positions. You need to their stand, most important relationship you can have is where the minority leader of the Senate, if you republican and that minority leader is a Democrat. Are

if you're a democrat and that minority leader is a republic that vat do your most important relationships start there in build out, because is divided government baby. No one gotta get it there, there's a reason why we have survived for as long as we have its incremental. It's meant a straight and you're. So right and the thing is these people blowing things up there. They have nothing to the baron save districts where they're gonna get like seventy seventy five percent of them, and so they get to blow the house of representatives up they get to set unrealistic goals, and then they raise millions of dollars from twenty five Other donations from across the country. There is not one of you're. Not

my job, but they'll go back home to their districts and they'll be applauded for this. It's not just the bulgarian a district drawn to elect a republican, their base of committed voters, which is what matters in these districts, but they're, going to get a slap on the back and say: attaboy keep do it. We expect a fight and it's the that matters, any thing you might achieve legislatively is automatically suspect because it, impure, because, if well Biden was willing to sign it and trucks humours willing to put it on the second floor. There must be something wrong with it. It's called hold your breath. Every body, a man I can democracy so Thirdly, there are a lot of reasons why rob we can Democrats didn't trust caverns, the cabin mccarthy last night had had defences, for everything by yet, if you're a Democrat I will say I am

I'm an institutionalized there. There were moments yesterday when I said man, I wish six seven eight democrats would vote present because, what's happening all republicans, girl could happen to a democratic speaker and you don't I have one person be able to blow and higher institution up? That's Democrats And they re, like you, want Kevin Mccarthy said on the floor, how outraged he was and then he visited moral I go impelled men held helped resurrected every time you talked about january, the six here, blaming the Democrats for january the six hi, I'm lend higher brought up, but I know I know talk go down. Go John hi, I'm with is brought up. Then he too our security tapes of january sexy was so craven. We can keep going down the list. This was just a guy that would do he sang to survive the next.

five minutes just like donald trump, and nobody could trust him at the end and he turned over those tapes. Why? At the insistence of the same members who he who voted him out of office yesterday, he asked was asked yesterday about any regrets. He had he said. Well, I guess the only regret I have is supporting these eight people, who just ran me out of office, raising money for them, helping them to get reelected, and he indeed did that so John heilemann to to David Drucker's point about getting the rules changed. So this doesn't happen again. I guess the question is: why would matt gates in that group? Why would they agree to a change when that rule gives them all the power that they ve been displaying for nine months. In other words, whoever the next speaker, The house is may again face the same conundrum, which is that one member can raise the motion to vacate and therefore this tiny minority of the house

representatives, eight or ten members of four hundred thirty five wheeled all the power over the majority. In other words, isn't this just going to potentially happen again to the next speaker? it all depends solely on whether anybody actually learn the lessons from cap. Mccarthy I mean did that. the next speaker is: can but if he expects to hear she expects to have a different faith and cap Mccarthy cannot allowed, can get you bees debate pytchley completely two mandates on this point once This was the ultimate thing that show the mccarthy would do it every he would outweigh any had no limits of what he would want the throw away, was the agreement that this is the thing gates. One gave gazed, basically, ceta, mccarthy, I want to have your political balls in my pocket, please hand them over mccarthy did and in that you do that. You know that eventually you're gonna get squeezed. and that's what happens. Mccarthy throughout the next speaker has to say no to that end

That means that a succession of speakers, so I'd have to stand up. Defy that gates, he has to be broken. Gates has to be broken if the republican party is- to be functional. Again, it's not still gonna, be the mega party largely, but you see like ship roy, who literally was like calling calling out gates on underlined. Yesterday, I beg you. Love credible screen kind of challenging, go fistfight. It's like that, but the republican party needs they have to to break the mat, get the whole the mat gates these eight terrorists on their own caucus if they don't do that Will this cycle will play out again and again, and if that means, for a period of time that two door having no speaker in order to get that back towards a more normal order. Then I think they have got to make that compromise and live with that pain and point the fact gates gates. He he's the person is causing this and that caucus that it what's causing the chaos that involves is the only way back said

we get. Let's talk briefly about who might be the next speaker have to deal with those legislative terrorists in the early sense of it calling around yesterday Steve police, the minority leader and Jim Jordan. Are they see me leaders and the club out at this moment. They both broadly appeal to services in the house the appeal to some of those far right, where's, stillest, mccarthy, been rivals for a decade or more there's no secret there, we wish to note- is battling cancer. He said stay or show that he feels good, that he'd be up for this challenge. We know he was calling around last night to fellow republicans, meeting with the texas delegations day that biggest republican state delegation they wheeled alot, influence. I squeeze clearly wants to job jordan, making calls as well stefanik emma a call others mentioned. But all of these put prospective speakers but I have some trouble winning over some of the more moderate or mainstream republicans those who come

Biden, one districts really, those in europe states of this will be the real challenge for anyone to get to the magic number to become speaker. We saw Mccarthy strongly backed earlier this year. There's every belief, will happen again and it comes against the backdrop of another lou, government shutdown. Why and the thing is I I just say I dont think it that one member there's our as long as you have this rule theirs this can be one member. That's gonna do this step forward and use this to raise money. They they before I vote for another speaker, whoever that speaker may be thinking change the rules and they need make sure that you have to have a majority of the conference if you're, if you're owing to actually vacate the That is the only way forward and the report can party, she just sit there and wait until they get that rule change pass because right now, they're just

making fools of ourselves, there's a split screen in america, Ass would screamin on america, where you have Joe Biden democratic present with proven ratings in the thirties, This is a very good opportunity for the republican party and yet that split screen has we're time indicted guy up up in manhattan, about to lose his. Billina. Even I'm right best stay because well, he's been lying in cheating and defrauding people for thirty forty years- and you know it's true: does everybody in europe knows it strove because everyone is saying it for thirty or forty years? And then you get republicans in the house of representatives. They can't even keep the joint open think about that their given

given one part of government to run why they can't even keep it open. Let's just bad news, they need this. Themselves up for success senior rider for the dispatch David Drucker. Thank you so much for coming on this morning. We appreciate it we'll see you soon and coming up Donald trump up. The other big story this morning expected to be in corn again today for day three of his new york civil fraud trial. Just one day after the judge slapped him, with a gag water following rant on social media. We'll take a look at what might happen if from can't keep quiet.

thoughts I have on morning Joe. The environmental justice is a talking point in every politicians toolkit. But do you ever wonder where it all begin on this week's july we're taking you back to nineteen? Seventy eight, where a fight against, toxic dump in north carolina started the environmental justice movement joint in two years: climate, weak and listen did through line. Wherever you get your pockets

hi, I'm jennifer parliamentary and unclear mechanical, where the host of the MSNBC podcast how to win twenty twenty four. We both know first hand that winning an election is hard having been in and around tough races for most of our don't lives, we have some unique insights into what it will take to win this twenty twenty four election and some crazy stories share to listen to how to win twenty twenty four now on spotify new episodes, thursdays. I pictured six. Thirty eight in the morning lights just now come on at the white house. For the first time ever, a former president of the united states has been slept with a gag water on the second day of donald trump. Civil fraud trial in new york judge arthur Angora, implementing atwater quote on all parties with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of his staff,

that came after trump posted a baseless claim about the court clerk on social media yesterday, while sitting just a few feet away from our inside the courtroom untruth, social and an email to his supporters. He insinuated the clerk had a personal relationship with Senate majority leader chuck humor, there's no and to support that troubling repeated those claims, while speaking to reporters when when a lunch break during that break, judge anger on summoned one of former presidents lawyers and his son. Eric to his chambers and told them to take the post down Once the trial resumed, the judge issued the gag order, but not before the trump campaign sent out a disparaging email about judge anger on himself. If the order is broken, judge says it could lead to quote swift, meaningful sanctions from says he'll be back. Court today for day three of the

punishment, phase of that trial joining us now bloomberg legal and politics report Eric Larsson. He was inside the courtroom yesterday covering prompts fraud trial also with us from where you s attorney barbara MC way. Good morning to you, both air welcome back. It's good to have you with us again this morning would take us inside the court room as this all played out yesterday, and how strictly this judge intends to enforce a gag order. That, let's be honest down, tromp is almost certain to violate, The idea was that it was a real twist. I think we were expecting some might some fairly bland testimony frankly from annex dense and that's took a turn pretty quickly around lunch when this, as you mentioned this, this guy border was issued. I think that even from the bank here that we have come to expect from tromp on social media and attacking judges and prosecutors, I think it took a lot of people surprised that he went after this particular clerk, who is very close with the judge and has been in court many times over the past year,

before the lawsuit was filed and when she was involved with the judge. Judges efforts to get trump to comply with subpoena and efforts like that, so trumps. Lawyers are very familiar with this clerk. They they have worked with her closely for a while now and so for him to take this pointed attack on her, I'm a it. I'm not eyes, actually that the judge, rio in this way- and the judge does not say he's not afraid to sanction trump- my request, but he sanction trump for failing to respond appropriately to a subpoena india pretty general's investigation before the suit was filed, and that resulted in a ten thousand dollar a day. Fine that ended up being about one hundred ten thousand dollars before trump finally came into compliance, so there I'm just not afraid to sanction tromp, and I am sure that he will follow through on on this threat. If, if trump does do this again

barbara in your experience, what power does a judge have and what power, as a judge, wheeled no matter who the defendant is whether they stole pack package gum or, in this case defrauded companies to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars? According to the evidence, in this case, to enforce this kind of a gag watered down, trump has never been afraid to attack judges to attack witnesses to attack the clerk in the case inside the court. Room of the trial is going on and punishment phase of it. So what will happen if he does it again? Set judges have a great deal of discretion and power in manage in cases that are before them, and that includes ordering defendants, not to speak about the case publicly. I thought, this to be a very refreshing and swift move, This judge after so many other judges in the other cases pending style Tromp has a better reluctant to impose gag orders and the judge has the ability to impose whatever sanction. He believed appropriate. It usually sort of escalating levels

of sanctions, and so I doubt he would be jailed after first infraction, but right now, warning is the first step, then maybe Fine is the next step, but at some point the ultimate pen de the judge can impose is to jail donald trump for contempt of court. If you genius to refuse to comply with the order. So I'm just curious, because trump does just in terms of his behaviour, seem more angry, actually personally angry than usual, and not finding or to whip up the base, and I'm curious, does. This seem focused on his social media posts or can the words he uses all to ultimately cost sanctions and consequences as well. He was going after the gene before this and loudly to reporter during these proceedings. So I wonder about that, and also what do you think constraints are on his, business right now. Given this,

negation. Does this trial that's going on with regard to the gag order? The judges actually quite narrow in focusing solely on the court's status. That, and I think it goes beyond social media- it just the court step, but I think it's a little bit of a shot across the bows it's very narrow now, but if trumps should issue, the network of goes beyond the bounds of this. I think the judge is made clear that he will not be reluctant to impose a gag order, even if that needs to be expanded. With regard to yours, in question about the the trump business enterprise I've already issued an order cancelling the certificates of very business entities in the truck organization and so for things like the fight actual buildings in manhattan. golf courses in new york Those are now sort of on hold with the idea of appointing a receiver for the purpose of liquidation. I think we have to get through weeks trial, to determine what penalties are because the attorney general

In disgorgement of profits of up to two fifty million dollars, and so it could be that if that is ordered, it may be that those points These need to be liquidated to satisfy that payment terms smooth beyond the gag order and tells LE, but also what happened yesterday in the truck. itself and also what we should expect today. if there have been some speculation, that trump would not attend today's hearings that he was going to leave, but now he has said he will be there again, how much longer they don't happen to, but yet we are in in today and I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up for the rest of the week. He indicated at least in a court filing in an unreal as unrelated case that he would be here all week we'll see he'll, be there today, there's going to be another accountants on the witness stand you know yesterday Here's a long time, accountant, donald bundle with bazaars testify. You know, under questioning from the state that he would not have signed off on donald trump annual statements have financial condition. If he had been aware,

that he wasn't getting all of the documents necessary, including appraisals of his key properties that conflicted with what the true organization had been telling him today were gone, here from another account from trumps new accounting firms. Whitley panic texas, based accounting firms- and they are we challenge the subpoena earlier in the case during the investigation, trying to to avoid handing over documents. They eventually agreed to do that as another says there, really trying to set a pattern here of showing what the trump organization handed over to their accounts too illustrate what their actual assets are. Of course, the other thing watching for his just trumps, demeanor and courts after this? This gag order has silenced him away and he's kids not going to be happy about. It now used to being told exactly what to do. Bloomberg said Eric Larsen and former: u s attorney bar roma quaid. Thank you both very much for your reporting in

site this morning, and still I have on morning, Joe russian president. Vladimir Putin has I said on a new target- will explain: officials are now worried. He'll do next to end u s. Support for ukraine was get reaction from former new jersey governor Chris Christie about Kevin, mccarthy's, ouster and more and congressmen Jim kleiber, and will weigh in didn't democrats make us move by not rescuing mccarthy morning job will be right back. the fifty one past the hour of beautiful shot of washington DC as the sun comes up this morning, and people are headed to work. Well, yeah, except for people that work in the house, they're not working for at least that got shut down the handle to america's fiscal. Keep it open. It's wall street journal editorial page said republicans

author own hands, John Harmon got a lot of stuff to get. Do have chris for grabs here Chris grandeur, second, I wanted to bring up couple of things with you, though. First of all, let's let sink back to about a year ago, Joe Biden gives you speak in philadelphia on democracy. When swear that red background, my hiding, you have a lot of quote truth teller, saying goodbye was an idiot to talk Democracy was never going to help out one of the people attacking louis Kevin Mccarthy, because A vine said means stream. Republicans you need to stand up to Magda republicans. Are you rule the day that you doubt and mccarthy went crazy said it was a decisive speech? Joe Biden was dividing america couple weeks later, although so called truth, tellers proved to be idiots. Americans did care about democracy and Kevin Mccarthy. mccarthy left

a very, very small margin because he did not heed the advice of Joe by near so I made it up. the white house, is in saying it, but my gosh let's say it here buying warn them. This was going to happen pebble one other thing: we haven't about really quickly. We saw chaos and anarchy on the republican side of the chamber. Yesterday, we, ordinary discipline on the dinner excited with a keen jeffreys. There are a lot of factions. Is you know that wanted to break out one? roll over the extremists and let mccarthy keep his job by not being their voting present. The king raise and the leadership cap that party together. Yeah, there's extraordinary, joan I'll. Just on the first point, just not just to be no Biden warned them. people said he was crazy that that that that republicans, to stand up to the maghreb action. The mccarthy

this very so that is basically get the tiniest majority in the mid term and then, when he gets too to actually have to we need that does to get rigidity asked the deal we have to make to get me speaker. He does the percent of what suggested which is hidden stand up to the maggot action at all. Now we paid the price for it, so he turned away widens advice twice. I would say the thing about about jeffreys, is that there has been a quest, He is the most unenviable position in some ways you could be an american politics trying to follow nancy policy, as democratic following the footsteps of a legend and the question has been wheel. But when the big test comes of cut of our keen jeffreys, will he be? to meeting that test, and this was a huge yesterday it If democrats or you know like hurting cats, then there are it's a good reasons that you could have come up with for for for doing a deal to help Mccarthy out

If the deal for ukraine aid you could have made up, you could reason that the next person who comes after mccarthy will be worse than mccarthy more untrustworthy, more maga. There were lots of ended there. Yet moderate institutionalists on the democratic side, who just don't like kale so don't want to be part of chaos right and jeffreys skilfully through both through their actions, small actions like he took him in the congress meeting yesterday and large acts of discipline. He kept this unruly dynamics a coalition together, there was not a single defection away from is the angel Kids did this cab mccarthy, but you want or need democrats do this also to come hardly yesterday, I think it he passed his first big poetic test with flying colours yesterday,

John highlands. Thank you very much and John mentioned ukraine. Yesterday, at the white house, national security council official john Kirby re iterated: u s support for ukraine, despite the recent drop in funding by congress in the latest spending bell, craniums wage tough counter offensive, as their children continue to get ripped from the bosom of their families and, as winter festival, It is imperative that we help them take advantage of every single day. A lot support for even a short period of time, can make all the deer on the battlefield, justice critically such a lapse and support will make Putin believe that he can out? You can wait it out and that it can Can you the conflict until we and our allies and our partners fault while the new york times reports that Russia's strategy to secure victory in ukraine is too outlast western support

According to the times quote: u s official said they are convinced, putin intend to try to us and european support for ukraine by using his spy agencies to push propaganda supporting pro russian political parties and by stoking can piracy theories with the new technology joining us now, the former director of the department of homeland security, cyber security infrastructure security agency, chris crabs, the partner in these cyber security firms. The crab stay most group so talk about it. Just how they can impact. U s, support for ukraine and also european support, and are they what are doing that absolutely and I have to that I'm I'm actually a little taken aback because my view was that they were going to mainly target the twenty twenty four election there and try to get influence.

comes and in the view of this I next year, but they move that they ve been able to move their schedule up a little bit with the current case. That's going on in the house of representatives and in their there about three things happening right now. One is this uptake of acting the across social media platforms, information operations to influence, hearts and minds in europe and elsewhere, time we're seeing platforms, including twitter, pull back on mechanisms that have been put in place over the last several years, including some the trust in safety and election integrity teams that they built up over the last couple of years in the wake of the twenty sixteen election, as well as some of the tools that they have on the platform, including self reporting of political life, activity. This is really allowed bit of a devils playground on social media platforms, take the advantage of a moment of chaos and continue to drive wedges across american in western society.

hey Chris Gomorrah, you said that twitter is kind of built, the perfect platform for four foreign manipulators to get in the congress to manipulate public opinion and also to manipulate, of course, parts of the twenty twenty four election process. Why do you say that was it about twitter in particular? That makes it so long so well for one reason or the other over the last several years. It seems that some political officials have started to view twitter is the real world, and I think we all know that it's not the real world that is, in fact a very synthetic environment. There are troll their box there fake users on there and you're, just as you say something on the internet doesn't necessarily mean it's true and at this in time, twitter has pulled back some of their capabilities. Just last week they removed their election integrity team that they built up. Double in ireland. It again, as I just mentioned, they remove some of the self reporting tools, including the abyss, pull up and an report an election related or political, related disinformation. So

this again this is allowed a number of different of the the the teams, the fake news, the platforms that the russians have built up over the last couple years. it and disinformation, and then at a time where everyone is looking for the latest breaking news. They jump on without verifying opposed, or something that that that has been put out there and adjust it I was out of control effectively sequesters, no doubt What are you auspicious we heard from John kirby? There are deeply worried Now it seems like the. U s. Support for ukraine is in question. There was no funding For ukraine, the bill, the cr that was passed over the weekend mccarthy had saddles publicly that he wanted to help he's gone. Why else is ensured with dealing with now? So what is it degree of concern there about the aid, but also back to the twitter point, isn't the other reason why twitter is the perfect,

venue for russian propaganda is because of who always twitter, who was seen. Anyone must seems to be actively helping at times on the law. As point I mean, I think it was pretty concerning over the weekend with some of the posts that that along posting, including the the meat as the one ski not getting at the latest to funding from the. U s, look we are at a word, a moment were building up towards twenty twenty four, the twenty twenty four global election cycle is going to be one of the most active in recent memory, and this is mexico. This last of several european elections in theirs taiwan we focus a lot on russia, but we have to remember that china is also incredibly active in this space and mehta. Just mother so ago released report where they took down the largest information operation that they had seen, in their history of tracking these sorts of campaigns. So the very act of spain. and we have diminishing transparency and visibility into how the platforms are.

publishing their content? Moderation policies, how there actually acting against it and what their interactions with governments are worldwide. So, as get seem to get worse out. There were yeah we're losing visibility. Our chris perhaps thank you very much for coming on the show. This morning we appreciate it was a night of the awful discovery, the apartment whose dark. coppery scent of blood in the air. I remember telling the boys don't touch anything wait out now. What's happened here, I'm morrison, and this is murder and apartment. Twelve bar new projects from day die. It's a story about a local beauty. Queen who've been keeping secrets, it's about gossip public opinion and a tortured search for a killer

I think they ve got the wrong guy, listen to the latest episode each week, completely free, just search murder in apartment, twelve, on spotify,