Are you tired of the mainstream media, condescensions snap judgments and now rageous bias national reviews pod cos The editors is your oasis of sanity and clarity, and a world gone mad join nor view right is like rich lowry, Charles see, w cook, Jim Geraghty, jack butler and others for an in depth, analysis and incisive commentary on the lake news in american political life find us on apple, podcast, spotify or ever you get your point Welcome to the Mccarthy report, the pot guess where I rich larry, discuss with Annie Mccarthy the latest legal and nash

well security issues this week, what else the christopher wray document controversy if for some reason, you're not already following us on a streaming service by the way you can find everywhere from spotify to itunes and please this park ass, an anti mccarthy the glowing indeed gushing fight our views that they deserve on itunes and now with further. Do I welcome to this very podcast through the miracle of riverside another than any mccarthy richer? Warrior. Good anti you hey whenever the calendar turns to pride month, I'm totally good, is someone I saw on twitter, someone who like why we just have a day for it to honouring the folks. It may be

ultimate sacrifice for for this country, but a whole month for pride and something that will actually may is military appreciation month, but you never hear about it or some other military promotional only to the extent that they have pride patches. Do you know what to more? but the thing I sorted. I just have to share this with people because like when, when hate brings people together, I it it just really warms the cockles. I see in the new york times the reporting this morning that Donald trumps, a strange cousin mary, who, I think is the one who got the ass documents for the times big story today is that mary trump is collaborating, on a romance novel with a gene carol out. Ok, it's going to be called the italian lesson and it follows an american expert who finds love.

in tuscany loud baby, a baby, that's how they can get together with Jim call me yeah and I'm reporting that I'm reporting on that on that story, mainly for megan, because otherwise I'd be talking about the met. So there you go yeah A comment was on MSNBC: promoting his novel assure weathers whether it was technically a black turtleneck, but it looks like he was wearing, was kind of black turtleneck type aware, is going for artist on us I am glad, after after russia gate to see that Jim decided he had a career in fiction, yeah and now here he has asked about thea durham report. Our societies, our old news and then he said you, but you know the interviews acres, but the f b? I do anything wrong and you care what you know. There's something Oh yes, of course, in a complicated investigation you know we were did, did check

some information and made some representations. We we shouldn't have add some other stuff, but I love that and some other stuff. The great thing is that Jim is like forever linked with Hillary Clinton and he's becoming like the clintons. So it's like it's old news because, like it was reported, it was reported friday, so might take its old goose. Isn't that what the Clinton they asked to examine their stuff? and, and now its mistakes were made so he's got he's got the whole routine down. Apparently all right, so Chris ray we gotta, big controversy, goin been developing for a while. There is this document. Fbi form. one or two three too, that this, a slight like us on this pike S or in the know that inform it says it by got a bride

there is obviously an investigative interests and a house in getting this document. Re has been resistant. and now congresses are on the verge of holding in in content So what are the big things you know here, while there, and confusion about what this document is about. I think we have to wretched the start say what we what we said a couple of times. We ve talked about this so far, which is that obviously, the fact that an allegation gets made doesn't mean that it happened so that

the first thing to note you mentioned that we're in the know on fd one o two three and that's because it's a standard, f b. I document in which they record a particular kind of witness statement. What what most people know about is the f d, three o two, that's the that's the f b. I formed a dub that always gets the most attention. That's their standard interview form, but when they're interviewing a confidential human source, who is often somebody who has who has a kind of an ongoing relationship with the f b, I they record those on a form, that's known as the ten twenty three. So that's what we're talking about and the reason.

That that has some significance is in this case. I think twofold number. One the fact that they are dealing with someone they regard as a as a confidential human source at least suggests that this is a person that they relied on the page. In the past, which usually means that they have found the person to be reliable. Otherwise, you don't keep going back to the well, doesn't always mean that, but it is often mean said, and secondly, it The reason that Jamie com or who is the chairman of the house oversight committee who's been pursuing this and who subpoenaed ray also chuck grassley in the senate, who investigated the Biden's

It has done a lot of work on it and also has had he says, of whistleblowers inside the law enforcement community coming forward to him and was also therefore aware of this, so the the reason that they were confident that they are this doctor, it existed and what was recorded in the document is because somebody in the investigation on the law enforcement side is a whistle blower. Who is telling them the stuff grassland fact has. It has implied that there is more than one whistleblowers and the interesting thing with that? Among other things, is the the gripe of the whistle blowers as we

The stand it is that there has been political pressure brought to bear on the Biden administrate on the Biden investigation, which has prevented the agents from doing the things they would normally do if they were dealing with an investigation somebody who didn't have political clout. So for all those reasons, even though I have to say that an alligator just an allegation doesn't mean anything has been proved. We also have to underscore that they recorded this for a reason it's being reported to that to congress. reason and the main gripe here is that allegations come in, but they don't get followed up on, like they normally would in investigation that didn't involved somebody with the kind of influence, though the Biden people have. So that's that tease up. I think why its import, Now, when I said there is some confusion, rich men

we're all along. We heard that this was a bribe scheme. That Biden was supposedly involved in while he was vice president, so the new reporting from the new york post suggested this bribe. The bribe scheme is connected to ukraine and specifically, it's connected to mccullough, zillow, chaff sky, who is the head of boris ma the the bob corrupt energy company that had not only hunter Biden but also hunters business partner, devon archer sit on the board at paris. My four,

five years, mainly during the time when Joe Biden was vice president and was basically the point person for the obama administration on ukraine policy. So what the post points out is that the ukrainians implicated it's low chap sky in what they say is a five million dollar bribe in june of twenty twenty, which is when not when Biden was vice president. But when he was running for president and in fact had the had the democratic nomination sewn up by then the date is significant. It was jus thirteenth, twenty twenty, when the ukrainians announced that they had done. You know, made this big arrest and seizure and made a big point of displaying.

Five million dollars, as I understand it, mostly if not completely in one hundred dollar- u s denominations, but also that day june, thirtieth I'm sorry June thirteenth is seventeen days before this form. Ten twenty three gets completed, in other words the informing whoever it is. Who gave this information to the f b? I gives it to the f b I just two and a half weeks after the ukrainians. Do this five million dollar case, which is how the post between that and the fact that it involves lord chef sky. Who has this history with the Biden's and that's the reason the post speculates? I think, a that that it's too much of a coincidence that the five million in ukraine

It must have something to do with the five million that the that the informant is talking about, but it just seems to be it's like a lot of speculation at this point, and I should stress that the post has a theory they haven't. You know at this point they don't. They can't prove that this. The five million we're talking about is necessarily related to ukraine, insula chesky. But that's what we that's We know and think we know about it. They know, there's a document com subpoenaed re over em? I think it it's over three weeks ago may be a month ago and re has dawdled. You know for a while he basically hand wrong and ignored it. Then!

finally, the f b, I gave comber a letter which laid out all of the policy reasons why they didn't think it was appropriate to disclose information that could compromise methods and sources of intelligence. You know basically comber grass, Lee and then ultimately speaker of the house, Kevin Mccarthy who also spoke to re this week, basically said you know, don't give us that sources and methods crap. If you want to reject that from the document fine, but you have to tell us what is the yet? The essence of the information in the document and mccarthy says he underscored to re that we get this kind of information all the time in all all kinds of sensitive information, and you can't not.

Turn something over to congress, because you think it's too sensitive. I would point out that this document, so far as we know, rich, is not a classified document and if it were, it seems to me that if it were run than to say a criminal prosecution that it would be routine for the justice department to turn it over to work to a criminal defendant and his lawyers? So if, if congress sounds a little bit rankled that you know that the bureau won't turn this document over to them under circumstances where you know it in a different context, they would give it to defence lawyers and an accused criminals, I think you can understand why they're starting to get aggravated so so re saying its sources and methods correct. He spent an now.

This is why it is not clear whether they, whether they collected this information, just in a normal in a regular relationship with a confidential human source if it was in the context of a criminal investigation or if it was in the context of say, foreign counter intelligence. I assume it wasn't in the context of foreign counter intelligence, but I dont know the reason I make that assumption is most stuff. That's on the f side is classified, and this document is not classified. So ray- is in the position of trying to sort of back semi class

the fire by regarding it as law enforcement, sensitive, which is a category that law enforcement uses which is not classified, but it's supposed to be handled. It's nonpublic information, that's supposed to be handled in a sensitive way, but if you don't have to have a clearance to see it and everybody who's on the house oversight committee has a security clearance. So again, we're talking about a document that you know is not sensitive or not sensitive enough, that you would need a clearance to see it, and what ray is basically saying is he does to turn it over to them cause it's too sensitive are there. So so what would be sources and methods would be. Sky acts who says he's a cia informant came to us with act with info or we use this method to dry.

this cairo. What would the potential such activities or what? What would become of the circumstances potential there you're up? glad I'm glad you're home in on this, because I had always annoys me when they say sources and methods, because it seems to me that that some time is like an abracadabra that they say to try to prove to avoid turning over. I'm not aware of any method that well, I should back and say, I am not aware of any thing right cause. We haven't seen the document, but to my sense? Is that what they are trying to protect is the source, meaning the person who has given them the information? This doesn't, it doesn't to me from what, based on what we know so far. It doesnt to me have the earmarks of like a method that they are concerned about, and let me try to explain to people when I when I tried the blind shake a million years ago.

Bureau had it had come up with some technology where what we work, what we were sorry about was every time we had somebody who was who was an informal who was suspected of being an informant. What the bad guys do is when they said hello instead of shaken hands, they tugged the guy, and it would be because we feel went around to see if there was a wire right. That's the kind of thing that soap, the bureau d, some technology, I just I you're, being affectionate is that we also go so the bureau develop some typical technology that enabled them to to put the device inside clothing that was hard to detect and as a result of that I had to be very. They were very whipped up one turned over some discovery in the case, which involved a tape recorder.

because they were afraid that the inform it was gonna question about how he was wearing a device where he was wearing the device in the bureau's always obviously very concerned about that kind of stuff goes these techniques that they use and active investigations. So I had to the judge and get a protective order that they can. ass, the guy, whatever they wanted about the conversation, but they nasa many questions about how he was fitted with the recording device So that's the kind of stuff, but but my point in raising this is that This is what has rankled the the people in congress. I think this stuff comes up all the time in criminal prosecutions where you have give information to people who are bad. People talking about the lawyers but but certainly there their clients there. But you know terrorist guys, whatever

though, if you remember of congress. You're sitting there saying the fbi is treating me worse than they would treat a criminal a criminal and his lawyers. You don't we, that was a criminal. You would give this information. You would make some kind of obvious accommodation to make sure that only the realm that information was used in the trial and to the extent that it could compromise a method of intelligence gathering or evidence, gathering that that would be precluded by the court, and then everybody goes on with life here. The fbi is using the stability that, a source or a method of intelligence gathering could be compromised, I used under circumstances where what we're talking about isn't even classified, trying to use that as a pretext to not give disclosure to congress. So, to the extent that congress is starting to get aggravated about this, you can understand why so

essays, Helen contempt, he's not gonna get prosecuted for us assume so now what happens? What amber rich. First of all on most federal crimes. The statute of limitations is five years. So will the Biden, justice department prosecute widens fbi director who is actually a trumpet we know that the us administration, what well, I don't know if they made this into an issue in a campaign and but he made you know. Somebody was goaded into making a promise that, like I'm gonna, look right now what comber is doing is pointing to the Steve Bannon precedent and its

not only Steve Bannon Peter Navarro, is now scheduled to go to trial in september on his indictment for defying a congressional subpoena, and I think it's going to be an issue in the campaign where you know. Democrats weapon cessation with ivy. We now have a weapon zation committee in congress now right, the Democrats, weapon visitation of law enforcement and in intelligence opera, She is going to be an issue in the campaign. How surprised would you be one of these guys get goaded into, making a commitment that, if he's elected present We're going to take a look at all the people who defied king national subpoenas and make sure they treated the same way that people who were in the russia gay trick bag with the january six trick bag were true

surprised. I think it'd be a good thing to be a guarantee, I think trump might be, leading the crowds and lock them up this time. Around and it'll be his own f b. I director of the perfect yeah. I should point out that you know what I'm going to say the same thing that I said when they went after ban and which is that it was forty years. Between the last time they had that the justice department had prosecuted someone for defining a congressional subpoena and when they went after Bannon, and in fact they had only I think, used, I think the justice department- it's probably less than five times- that they very that they had before indicting Bannon, that they had ever seen. secure somebody for defining our congressional subpoena, the the idea being that congress has its own constitutional or

and all for dealing with this kind of thing, and it's not a good idea for the justice department to get involved in that, especially because it can be as we're seeing it could be very political detainees, depending on whose ox is getting bored. So I thought it was a prudent policy up to that point For the justice department to avoid an meshing itself in prosecutions for defying congressional subpoenas- and I thought it was technically bad idea in connection with Bannon, because even What ban and was telling congress was bs, namely that you know he couldn't comply because trump was asserting executive privilege. In point of fact, there was a supreme court case nixon against the administrator of general services administration from nineteen. Seventy seven would

said that there are circumstances under which private former presidents can assert executive, privilege and balance point was that his lawyers had told him that that case existed and that that was a precedent. that is long that the normal procedure would be that congress would go to court and get a ruling about whether executive privilege, applied and banning was saying, is if they go to court and comply with the ruling, but I'm not complying the while we still don't know how they're going to work out trumps assertion privilege again, I'm not saying that that balance or it was convincing. I'm saying that it was a colourable enough argument that too, to jump for the first I'm in forty years, to holding some one in four contempt of of congress? I think, was a mistake and You know, unfortunately, when you make the first mistake, it becomes much easy to make the next one, so they ve done that with navarro too, because today,

credit. Take this insane position the january six as the is is like he's january. Six is the embodiment of troy in the sense that it sui generis. It's like nothing else, that's ever happen, and it has to be prosecuted and entreated in a way that we throw out all of our precedents in all our prudence in war, coercion and caution, because this is some unique event and I think the people who were on the prosecutor, who are getting prosecuted on end of it are going to look inside. You know. Look you can't unilateral disarmament. If the Democrats are going to do this stuff, we're gonna do this stuff, trumps, I'm all right. You have to like them by using their methods. Of course, So just last say on this? Is it this is supposedly a bribe and june twenty twenty,

I believe anything about pines family influence peddling, but this seems extremely unlikely to me. It extremely yeah. I think that I think that's that's fair I think you know we don't know a lot about it. Yet we do know that, because of Joe Biden the lead chef sky retained hunter in a position in which the Biden's made millions of dollars, which I don't believe is plausible. Just like you don't believe this is plausible, I don't believe it's plausible. They put the hunter Biden on the board of an energy company because of his business acumen, yeah now, of course, they're paying off the Biden family.

And if you accept as a premise that bresma had learned since two thousand and fourteen that it was fine to pay off the Biden family, then I don't think it's implausible that they found other ways to do it. But we don't have enough details at this point Oh well, there more than they do quick plug for our plus. Did your subscription serves a dash of you d come your way rather meter pay wall and your way this is very important to support our valuable journalism, so not already a member of our plus, please consider running tens of thousands of your fellow nash review readers, as a member of our place, it's obvious, it is very important to Us- said people pay a little somethin. It's not a lot a little something for content, so eddie, as I mentioned before, when I break the fourth war on this podcast, you provide an outline that has very very helpful to two to me an understanding.

So the nuances. Here's is why sound so well informed on this podcast inactivity out is that the next item we are going to discuss. I just can't follow. I can I nothing wrong with your outline. Is no fuss you're out, so this involves a a witness or someone who knows about the this sea, c c business deal, thanks to high Heaven and there's an allegation that that the bush administration might might be trying to keep cool sky from from emerging, so us when on here x. I can't understand it. Ain't gotta tell me well, I think, rich, it's easy to follow if we

for a second just sort of retrace. What we already know about this, because my sense looking at this- this is a big bombshell kind of report that the new your posted today, its miranda divine, who obviously has been following this wrote. The book about hunters laptop has been following this very closely and I find her reporting on. This is the stuff you have to follow because she's followed so closely, but I think it looking at this now. I regard this guy is kind of a color witness to to fill in the blanks and add some context to a story that you already know the outlines of so with respect to cfc. What we know is that The e is basically a chinese intelligence operation that was gussy up is a a transcontinental business empire.

it was run by a guy named mad gauging Meng, who is the who is a protegee of of decision paying. The president of china are one of the key executives of sea of sea was this guy patrick co, who hunter Biden regarded as as he described him, the effing, a spy chief of I know so they knew what they were dealing with here and how to remind people was rested in early twenty eighteen by the justice department and charge with some business corruption, offences for which he received a three year sentence, and it was in the course of that prosecution that the justice department had to go.

notice to the defence that how in sea have sea were the subject of pfizer surveillance, foreign, intelligent surveillance, meaning under the fbi's counter intelligence authorities, which raises the question because HO and ye worked closely with hunter and Jim Biden. It raises the question like, for example, were hunter, and Jim Biden picked up on the sub. You know, can or intelligence surveillance that are intelligence agencies were doing so that's that's the broad outlines of the story and what we know about c c in the binds is that they began pitching a business relationship with the violence least, by early twenty seventeen, this guy we're gonna talk about

The story backed perhaps his earliest twenty twenty fifteen, but we knew that ye met with hunter in florida. In early twenty, seventeen gives them the diamond as a as a bribe to you. Don't get him into the business relationship and in approximately the one year between one point, twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen d c e f c pays the violence six million dollars and a lot of it goes to worm Biden business associates. I think, in this case rob walker basically c E. F c pays entities connect to see a sea pay entities connected to rob walker who then speak goals the money to the binds over time, so that these big

three million dollar payments end up, looking like much smaller and less obtrusive payments, and that goes on for a year, and we also know that out of that six million, that the Biden god, one million of it- was paid by ye to hunter for hunter to act the defence lawyer for Patrick HO. and the idea was he punter who, according to the guy we're going to talk about, has a contact in the f b. I was supposed to use his influence to try to find out why the f b, I was snooping around cfc

and ultimately we know that there was stuffed a snoop around about, because Patrick I did get arrested and convicted, or so those are the things we already know in broad outline. Now we have this guy, whose name is gal loved. He is a former I think, colonel in the israeli defence forces. And he's a private business person, and he has some kind of a relationship with one of c e, F, c entities and its in that connection that he knows ye and how so basically after hole was. Prosecuted around the same time, hallways being prosecuted, the sky gal loved reaches out to the justice department

to explain that he has information that might be relevant and what he tells them is in his dealings with these guys from sea of sea. He learned that they were paying enter Biden a hundred thousand dollars a month and paying Jim I'd and sixty five thousand dollars a month and the purpose of that according to what would ye in and whole told this guy? was to get the biden associated with china's belt and road initiative, which they thought would make it more appealing to in places where they wanted to do it and to have access to these guys for their political influence and also accords to the sky gal loved. He knew. From ye. That hunter had some connection in the fbi that could get them information. So what he says is that,

He paid hunter the million dollars as a defence lawyer in order to use uses fbi contact to find out what was going on in the investigation and on the basis of that ye was satisfied that it was safe for how to come back to the it states, always in hong kong. At the time there is evidence of both hunters laptop that both hunter and Jim Biden went to hong kong and twenty seventeen to meet, with o, so on the basis of what they were learning from hunter ye. Evidently, according to the sky, I hope now that it was safe to come back to new york when he flew back from hong kong to new york, he got arrested, And we now know that when he got arrested, the first kali made was to Jim Biden, who it said ever since, while I think he was trying to get in touch with hunter, he must have called the wrong number. You know and he he

he called the guy, they will pay in a hundred thousand. Not me. I only get the sixty five thousand among so anyway. So if this guy is to be built, be believed. Ye is the reason that whole came back to new york thinking. It was safe. based on whatever information it was getting. A hunter from hunter HO nevertheless gets arrested, panics when he gets arrested. He lay His wife, too young children in their fifty million dollar home in new york. I think its central park west, if I'm remember and he toodles back to beijing, where he is arrested by the chinese authorities- and he has never been seen again and as I've put it out a number of times. This all happened after this happened to ye after the justice department disclosed in hope,

case that they that c e f c was under pfizer surveillance. So it's a very intriguing story The burdens are up to their necks in it in connection in in connection with the money and with the obviously, with the investigation, and I would just hastened to remind people- that this is the transaction, the sea of sea transaction as to which there is actually a direct witness tony bauble linsky, who has come forward and said that Joe widen was in this transaction that he had to face to face meetings with em bubble. Linsky was a guy who was recruited by the binds and their associates to build the business structure of what was going to be the c e f c venture. So that was the connection in which he says he had face to face meetings.

Biden and he also says that Biden was Joe Biden was supposed to get ten percent of the steel that, where hunters laptop documents that are pertinent to this, where they say ten percent for the big guy boboland skeezers, that's for sure, Joe Biden, so this sea have see transaction, which I I actually don't even think is the most lucrative of the chinese transactions at the binds are complicit in. But this is a very intriguing transit. and what this guy gal loved says is because he was a witness who could, who could put more meat on the bones of this, what happened to him? was that in early november, twenty seventeen when it whispered

it's clear that the Republicans were going to win the house, although, as we remember, we sweated that out for a couple of weeks afterwards, right, I I do you remember it. Was it a week or two weeks it took before. We knew for sure that the Republicans had the but in any event, what this guy is now saying is that, once it was clear republicans we're going to take the house, which meant The Biden investigation was going to get serious a few days before election day. The Biden justice department had this guy arrested in cyprus for an arms of course that's is else that happens in Cyprus, guess one other thing: the guy I escaped Ok a perfect silt, he gets it. stood in Cyprus and he's being held supposedly in cyprus, because divide and justice department is trying to extradite him the story this

I want to tell us they were trying to silence him because he could drop a dime did distilled a dime anymore. I don't even know if people know what that means, but he could information on hunter and Jim and the violence on the solvency ii fc thing. So he now says that that was the reason they arrested him in. That explains the timing of it and he can meet I'm so he's trying to get away from the justice department, color trying to get to him. Was the house wants him as a witness, an meantime, this guy escapes whatever custody he was in or whatever loose arrangement. He was in it. Iris and when miranda divine in the new york poster interview him his whereabouts, drop it I can remember, never the sound of the kitchen Long into the oven, and asking you to keep dropping I d

during the conversation that technology is crazy was so advanced back. This data drop, the additional time our eye, so we got trump stuff also moving along there's. This recording of trump at bed nets talking about. How has this classified document outlining general? No, plan to attack. Iran is gonna, be careful talking about it because classified document so more evidence of troubled brewing there for trot Yes, moving on from cyprus to iran's yes, so like jack smith is is, as we discuss these,

is homing in on mar a lago, and I think that they're going to make the mar a lago case, and it's mainly going to be a an obstruction case, but what their rub? What what this is about is evidence that that, The trumps claim that even his lawyers won't repeat in court that he declassified everything and he knew everything was declassified. So it turns out that this must be upsetting to trump, but he has a bunch of meetings in twenty twenty one and afterwards, because a number of his another of his people, his former administration people, have have projects going on, including the former chief of staff. Why am I blinking on him

writing a book right mark meadows right so he's he's. Writing a memoir about his time as trumps chief of staff, and Trump has an assistant who are still in the justice department. I will write about thank you card but he records the meetings which therefore available for by subpoena? your Chris right. So apparently the prosecutor smith, the recording of this meeting that trump had it bed minster in new jersey, where he had where he has the home that he spends the summer and where having a meeting about about meadows, memoir. Among other things, an trump is still angry because after the capital riot milly, who is trumps, handpicked chief of staff

the military right chief of the joy head of joint chiefs, so milly it was boarded in the new yorker by a think, Susan glasser that milly head an arrangement that any orders that from gave had through merely because our four afraid he was gonna, do something crazy, like attack and ran in. There too. I don't know if it was to maintain power, waited to turn the page from the capital riot or you know, whatever the crazy reason was, but they were at that point it may have just been rich that they were trying to like lay the groundwork for invoking the twenty fifth amendment and needed something like crazy. The trunk was going to do so that that that might have been, who doubts, but anyway, so milly was running off at the mouth that they were worried. The trump was going to attack a ran, and since this shit, this betterments, the meaning is made

around here. The guy you want to look around, so it turns out that one of the documents he kept he says is a document he got from milly now there's a dispute about. I think he may have said that milly wrote it or or actually meadow said that milly hand type a by himself, a four page document, but anyway the suggestion is that truck may have this document with them as easy as he's raging at this meeting, and what he says it shows is that milly had this plan for We were going to attack a ran if we, if we decided to do that now, you know what the new year, girl. What trump says is that milly was the one who wanted to attack a ran, I'm not the crazy one, he's too crazy one and what the yorker says to kind of cover. Milly. Is that all

military? Has contingency plans for all kinds of stuff all the time and obviously they have to have a plan for what we would do. No, no options off the table right right. Exactly rich no option is off the table so and all options are recorded evidence so anyway. So despite the fact that he's having this meeting trump is in bed minster with people who don't have security clearances and he's acting in as he goes through this, the time says and the other reporting says you can hear papers rustling and it sounds like trump may be, reading from it. Let the deep milly document, which may or may not be a milly document, but he's also say he needs to be careful what he says because the document is classified not everybody has clarence, so it shows that like his story that he declassified daddy

at a standing order that anything he took from the oval office to the residence was declassified and that he he imagined everything to be declassified when it was put in boxes and sent tomorrow, lager or whatever other crazy thing. He said about this what what they're saying is this evidence shows that he knew that he was dealing with classified information and how to be handled carefully and All. To my mind, a molehill that they're trying to make out of a mountain, because if they charge trump under this, it's gonna be under the espionage act which doesn't require the documents it doesn't matter. If the documents classified with the espionage access is national defence information, so classification markings or evidence that something might be national defence information. But it's dispositive. So the whole thing is just factor and I think they're gonna worm. They can oppressed yoda mainly for obstruction anyway, but the. But it's an interesting little sideline

and really quickly. Leslie Andy is your belief that spring court. Decisions in these fraud cases involving cuomo cronies, can make a really hard first smith, to go after tromp on general sex or what was connection there yeah. I think this is a really good. development and the law rich and to underscore here, I dont think the supreme court had trump in mind at all, but trump is go to be the young BP, this kind of stuff, beneficiary of this line of cases, one of the awful things that the supreme court has been fighting for, fighting against basically, since scalia got on the court in the nineteen eighties is the ten c of prosecutors to use em beg you with words in statutes in order to create new crimes that congress didn't actually codify and the biggest thing that they ve used in this regard is fraud

fraud was understood. Fraud has been on the federal criminal books since there have been federal criminal books. I think the first fraud statutes like eighteen, seventy two or something like that but the original understanding of what fraud meant is exactly the common understanding of it, which is a scheme of deception. In order to steal money, your property, real, tangible property and in the second half of the twentieth century actually goes probably a little earlier than that prosecutors and lower court started to indulge these extravagant theories that any scheme of deception could be prosecuted, even if the objective was not to steal money or property, so they extended. This too

You know you're right to honest government or euros deceptive schemes to to undermine you're right to privacy. Are you so? What prosecutors, clever prosecutors, mainly in the southern district of new york? This was like their bread and butter was due to come up with the ways to stretch the the fraud statutes and what the supreme court basically said in these two cuomo crony cases is no fraud. Is a scheme to steal money or property. These involved one was a political one, was a bid rigging scheme where nope, where there was no loss of money or property, but they prosecuted a cuomo crony tractor on a theory that he hadn't obligation to tell the state about the bid rigging scheme. Because of the

the owners right of control of an asset which the theory went. Was there right to no information that would be material in making a decision about the disposition of the asset, I mean this is caught at this, the kind of stuff that like congress never wrote into a fraud statute, but prosecutors have have have come up with so what the Supreme is basically saying is one this whole fraught. The idea of turning fraud into a progressive prescription of what honest government were good government looks we're not doing that. If congress wants to write a statute that clear- and that says you know, this is a crime than fine will enforce a crime but would not letting prospect

leaders right new crimes on the theory of fraud, so I think the thing that their basically going after trump on with respect to january six, as we ve talked about, is conspiracy to obstruct congress in the counting of the electoral votes and a conspiracy to defraud the united states, Stu theory being tromp was involved in an innate deceptive scheme, the objective of which was to stop congress and counting from four to frustrate congresses, ability to carry out its constitutional function of of of counting these votes, and I think, on the on the corruption side, on the on the obstruction side, what you have to show for structured case is that somebody corruptly try to influence congress because you're allowed to influence congress you're allowed to impede congress you're allowed even to obstruct

risk as long as you don't do it and obviously criminal way. So that's the reason they add the term obstruction. I'm sorry they add the term corruption to the obstruction statute, but I think what the courts will say is that correct Option is a term, that's just like fraud, in the sense that, if prosecutors push it too far, It runs the risk of criminalizing a lot of activity. That is first amendment protected and that you're allowed to engage in. So I think in toto jack smith is going to look at these cases and just say: if we're going to go after the the former president the united states. We can't do it on a theory that the that the supreme court is sending every signal that they're gonna throw it out. If we manage to get em convict, So that's all the time we have today for this episode, thanks everyone for listening and thank you and, of course, to thank for it.

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