Today on The McCarthy Report, Andy and Rich discuss new developments in the Ukraine–Russia war, Ron DeSantis’s stance on Ukraine, and the impending Trump indictment.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the Mccarthy report. I guess where I rich worry, discuss with Andy Mccarthy, the latest leo and national security issues this week. What else the dissatisfied
depend on ukraine for some reason, you're not already find some streaming service by the way you everywhere for spotify to
please give this part gaston, Andy Mccarthy, the glowing indeed gushing iced our views they deserve on itunes. Now
a further do I
I come to this very podcast through the miracle riverside, none other than any party
rachel warrior,
I'm good science does sound a little rough getting getting out.
is called feeling better, but but not sounding much better use
great rich
Thank you,
was here in the beautiful love.
I could it's been no spin great road trip
yeah lobo called reuben called, but you know
gorgeous day yesterday. Baseball's been great, so can't complain
much work to be home, watching the world baseball classic and seeing the mets team disintegrate before they employ.
Single game clothing. I am father, sent me getting hurt the
apparently d, as yesterday he may be
for the seas it, but he hurt himself celebrating one quarter, rico apparently defeated the dominican republic and thus
operation got out of hand. I was kind of reminded rubber years ago there was a quarterback who used to play for the giants, but he's playing for the redskins and he scored a touchdown
in the celebration he banged his head. That has beginning with the helmet on into the stands and the guy like never played again
we got a negative honey
But what I heard yesterday about Diaz, maybe an achilles thing they had to wheelchair I'm off. You
and it was- he- was lying with pursue, celebrating
kelly. That's that
bad. I once had
terror mike catholics-
which was actually a celebration. Injuries is a classic old man, injury very embarrassing, the yankees adjust.
clenched the serious against the indians.
Eleven thirty at night.
I'm the only one open and our small manhattan apartment, and I I jump like half an inch and self
and I feel this rolling sensation the bought all my leg as all my gosh them kelly's. Because that's what am I says, you feel the role now, it's just a real bad calf.
Airbus is embarrassing, haven't like crawl
the bedroom and tell your wife, you just can't walk ass. You re like facebook next year,
at these terrible ankle injuries, all my life cause, I used to play basketball and, as a kidnap too, like top heavy with skinny legs, but I once
twisted my ankle.
showing my son, how I twisted my ankle, my elastic, which was the most embarrassing, but my favorite, my favorite achilles thing is a member Kobe Brian blew out his, but he went to the line and hit the two free throws before they,
I am
darling,
the political news this week, another tucker karlsson, related development.
asked candidates for statements on ukraine, a lot of them provided them, including some surprise, and I think to santa
I think it would be best for him just to pass on this for now, but is
early, extensive statements,
the more I look at it in the cold light of day, I don't think it really says anything
but the mood music is very much. I intervened
last and we're gonna take up the topic of ukraine
an absurd, or two ago you wrote
column objecting to the one year anniversary, editorially ram,
crane at an hour. So, let's what's that,
this around. What would personal? When do you think that sad statement? Well, I really think
on the whole, like you say, it is not right.
Much there and this certainly not anything there that enforceable in any way
I'm not I'm not is
against the idea that he ought to be you're not taking up an invitation from talk
as you are, I hear what you're saying, but I am also I'm kind of sympathetic to what dan wrote about this. I think I saw this
yesterday, where you know de santos, is obviously got trump on the brain, there's polling that says that you know trumpets
extended. His lead over dissent, as I think we're gonna see this go back and forth
for, while, although I think it will be interesting to see what the reaction trumps starts, getting indicted in various places is cause. I don't think those two things can be pride apart, but that's that's a separate issue
but you don't. The scientists needs to the scientist, wants to have the support of any of the the the trompe maga crowd. That's that's persuadable. Some of them are obviously stuck with trump.
There. There are others who can be peeled away.
and you know look D,
ukraine war, whatever you, whatever you think of it as an objective matter. As far as american support for the ukraine war is concerned, it
high water mark. I want to say around may after the right
invasion and its significance
lay down since then it
markedly down across the board is significant,
lay down on the republic itself
Now some of that is because its now obviously is perceived as bindings baby and
There is a natural, I think,
does a natural impulse on our side to brush against it. Just because he,
running it, and the other thing is, I think, Biden, wall street journal editorial made this point, but the
particularly resonates with me after the yet.
Democracy, building, debacle in Iraq and Afghanistan, Biden being left
no matter how much you now, you know, pretends he's a he's he's now with centrists for the last five minutes right after governing from the left a result term, but he continues to talk about ukraine in terms of every
thing imaginable other than american interests
so it's all about, like the crusade for democracy in all, so he's not
explaining why it in why
b, the post?
world war. Two
international order, serves american interests and why we have a particular interest in
making sure that
the norm remains too, that the big powers can swallow up to the territory of small powers and how that's
You know how the history here is
You know this: it's not only in american interests that we have a free trading internet
order. But,
If we allow, without
punitive measures if we allow
what russia has done in ukraine to become
if not at least you know something, that's not only ordinary, then that's very bad
american national security in the history here is that eventually will end up in a war. That's going to be much more costly than what we currently doing. So I dont think you know
if, if Biden wants to rally the whole country behind what he's doing in ukraine,
first of all, these gonna have to have a better vision,
what he wants to see happen in ukraine,
and how long it's all gonna take, but also he's gotta talk about it in terms of american interests, rather than
this year. We I uh democracy stuff. I agree. I agree with that. I think the problem is what the the terms in which Biden is defending, what we're doing it's just it's the way every president speaks
You know that about foreign interventions, no one can do just the cold cold. I'd thing,
toys were saving democracy and, I think, is reduced
so think were saving democracy, that this step roy
who could win in ukraine and next
I would still be flawed, but it moxie, Canada would still be well. I guess maybe ten, not technically democracy in his eyes out
actually collapse overnight and all sorts of stable societies, because of that sets
my where I am
in ukraine are not and in favour of defending and abstract principles, and I don't think it's realistic that that abstract principles will be deferred.
Did much. You know maybe has an effect on on the way china thinks about taiwan, which potentially important but a few.
in germany, had a territorial dispute, if they're, both liberals,
ah crises and one decided to invade the other. They wouldn't be here,
takes. We wouldn't want that to happen. We wanted
negotiate an end as quickly as possible. But I think it's it's it's
revenge is nature of russian power. That's the the thread and dumb.
That's that's that's. Why that's? Why I'm an on board what we're doing, but also
It's also national just to talk in terms of victory,
but they're not gonna, be ukrainian victory. I mean they're, not gonna, marched to moscow and pop toppled too.
which is the only way this ultimately with stop so up.
My take it as I wrote in account for political couple weeks ago, convince burden that he can
at more a negotiating table than he can on the battlefield- and maybe we're not compelled to do that, but that's the goal, and then you get an ancestor, satisfactory settlement and I'm proof
want to take the un's s, suspect, resettlement and and see russia had made small
territorial gains in this
because the conflict
Health is bad and it would be better if it it stopped.
I don't want to stop on on russian terms. You I think I am
I agree with most of that. I I I think it's him,
in terms of like the abstract principles, to
Remember that not the people are
history buffs any more to the extent they ever work, but
You know the cold war
ended in.
In eighty nine to ninety one that area
and it's not in the living memory of a lot of people. Today,
whereas the iraqi enough gas,
then or envy? You know the folly, which has been it's been very costly for the united states of trying to erect democratic societies in places that were hostile to the west is something I think that in the front of the mines.
people who follow this sorta thing and and as a result, while you may be right that historically it you know, presidents always talk about. You know democracy. That may be the case, but you know we're in a different historical context. Right now, where you know the the thing that was the the most recent.
Ass there were american foreign policy was allowing the boy
doctrine I am. I have written a piece for the magazine about this, we're about to mark the twentieth anniversary of the iraqi invasion, but I think the the
transformation of the bush doctrine, which I am still a believer in. You know this idea that you with us with the terrorists
allowing that to morph into a sociological experiment and ensuring democracy was a catastrophe and it cost us a lot
and it in the reverberations other continue still. You know we haven't talked much
lately about Biden's debacle in Afghanistan, but
still a debacle, and we have jihadist organisations that have a working partnership with a government in afghanistan, which
what brought nine eleven to war road toward doorstep back when so you know,
I think that when one
I didn't
I don't think he intends to do this, but when he talks about you, don't do it.
Policy rather than american interests.
playing right into the but the populace argument against stir
against any intervention, and you know the the,
argument against intervention as default
is a super argument, because american
too many interests in the world, and I think we just
we ve gotten so far away from it, and this really started
after nine eleven, because I think we're were solicitous of of
islamic sensibilities and also trying to keep
muslim regime's on our side, but weep we ve forgotten, had
talk about a man
can interests, and
and behold, the only one who talks about american interests is trump
and he doesn't always have a good grasp-
what they are, but the mere fact that he's the one who is doing it almost you don't do that
popular media. It makes it the disreputable to do it, but I think
what we learned, I think rich and we
We argued about this a lot during the war on terror.
I I was particularly sensitive to it, pushing against the democracy project at but the lesson
Whatever you think of the democracy project is the american people,
are willing to be so
supportive of a war as long as it takes and as much as it takes
as long as they believe that american national security in american vital interests are at stake? If you don't pigeon
that way, you lose them and what we learned in Iraq is we can't
sustain a war with a man.
American forces in the field. If there's not domestic support for so
we're not talking about a venture with
in ukraine, where its.
it's obviously a red line that we're not even get. We can't even embraced the possibility of putting american forces in because the public is dead, set against it.
The very unpopular war, if Biden
in that direction, but the
lesson still remains. If you dont pitch this, as you know where this broke country, that's gotta, don't cry
This is now has a banking crisis has.
A military recruitment crisis,
has a munitions crisis has a what
its building crisis, is planning to brood.
has agreed to give weaponry. Informer tanks to Ukraine
but we're not going to get around to it for for two years who the hell knows? Whether the you know that will even still be in the field,
years from now, and we
denounced the august deal this week. Will
deliver submarines that Australia, sometimes each
twenty thirty five and twenty forty nine there you know-
I thought I'd say it's a couple, a couple things to one that obviously you're right, that iraq, no shadow.
A thing
There are a lot of people who are supported.
Recognition at least initially regretted it.
And now they're like what does not do this, because we interact with the two different things: yeah, we're we're not directly and
it's here. Nor nor should we be, were
spending and their costs of that, and you know just
It's your dollar matters a lot and then you get to the the the the fact that our defense industrial base is a joke
so a running low on stuff. I think the answer is to to get a better defence industrial base. But let me let me ask you this: I had his back and forth with them amby d and
and you may objective the way I'm characterizing his position so that caveat up front, I'm not doing it deliberately but as like. Go
so you not like bypasses. So what? What would you do when you cut cut off the ukrainians are where is like? Well,
you know, I'd I'd, modulator support such that you know the ukrainians
man, I can't really when anne and then they have come to the table. I think, as is basically what he said, but not my point.
Is that if you score in the ukraine's you might as well support them such that they can really push back, because if you do half what we're doing now and the end, you know,
in russia takes stiff pushes fifty miles forward. I don't think they're gonna stop
and also the nature of of military operations. You might have
a breakthrough in mit back at at keys, so
so, where? How would you on said, say you? You have the you're you're sitting and that the office? What what? What do you do? What you do differently.
Well I I mean I'm not where I I have. No,
with ukraine, winning
very sympathetic to loudly arguments that anybody has made, but my
my main thing is
you know, russia's an enemy of the united states, and I am happy to bleed them afghanistan style for as long as it takes
Suddenly we did that former nineteen, seventy nine to nineteen. Eighty, nine! I think from our standpoint and it's it's hard to tell
about this in a cold calculated way when people are dying in the tens of thousands of deaths on each side and there is likely to be
maybe a couple of million by the time. This is all said and done if it is said and done in any you know any time soon,
but in terms of the american national interests. I think russia's been exposed as a much weaker.
Military power, obviously it's a nuclear power, but you know in terms of the the four mit ability of its of it's conventional forces they've been exposed. I don't think it's going to keep,
up at night. Do you know this idea that if Russia you europe manages to to
when some territorial conquest in ukraine, when, when the dust settles here that will have to
are worry about them. You know rolling into NATO countries next. I just think that's absurd. You know that obviously, there sustained
tremendous damages and their their capability to do that. Just I mean it seems to me obviously, but it's not fair or so
I just think we have to be realistic about what this is doing.
Russia. Russia has been very weakened by this, and its of it
after continue to be weakened by it, because it looks to me like
The ukrainians are willing to fight, and I think is
honesty, ukrainians are willing to fight. I would continue to give them support.
Because not that I'm a big pro ukraine person, I'm not, but I do think that we duped ukraine. Not duped is the wrong word, because I don't think we did it on purpose. But we at least induced ukraine to
I rest itself of its nukes back in the early nineties nineties and then
MR obama and richard luger when they were in the senate. We induced him to divest a lot of their conventional weaponry in two thousand sex, so
that was all done on the premise
even though it wasn't a treaty was at least something we. We
it meant we made, and we ought to try to honour those kind of commitment to the extended its practical. To do that, we made a commitment that
if they did what we persuaded them to do, namely you know disarm themselves, but we
would be their security guarantor. So I think to some
we we have a moral obligation to to fulfil that, but we have to do it
Mindful of what we are current
capable of what,
threatened threat. Environment is an
how much how much we have in the way of resources and what I'm concerned about is that we're not
at the moment able to replenish the the munitions we ve already given them well
in terms of our own national security, depleted
in very important ways.
Only a poor from the recruitment crisis, which is which is a whole another problem. I just just strict materiel, where we have a problem with, and my simple question is this idle: if if there was a
We decide that russia's biddable here. If we
were to hand give the ukrainians you conventional weapons,
That would allow them in in a finite period of time, to roll russia back. You know if there were.
Military experts have convinced me that I would be I'll be
open to doing that, but it looks too
You like this conflict could go on work
five or more years on the pasted its currently
we're already in force somewhere between a hundred billion in two hundred billion.
We said in the editorial that we should not only maintain that level, but we should increase it. Ok, fine. What
gonna cut. Or are we saying that this is such an important thing to the united states that we will continue to borrow despite the straits that wherein and the
the group. Growing economic crisis that we have here, it seems to me,
like what were were willing to say yes, well back them, but we
That's what we're not willing to think through like how much will we back back them, given
the other things on our plate, including try to prevent
from invading taiwan and including
rich enough. The fact that we could have a war in the Middle east like any second, depending on
How things go there, that's becoming more of
powder keg,
There's a lot of
what's going on on the chess board and we're
looking a lot into ukraine and I'd be again. I'd be, but I'd be
open to the idea that
We had a surge in support that we could pertinent that we could so hurt the rush
that they would be willing to come to the table, an agreed
arms that we would find acceptable and that the ukrainians-
willing to to to settle on
But I dont see that right now
That's it then I'd my weekend that strike, I know
Just think that we have to be. You know there's a finite amount of support that we can give these guys
because this is not a conflict. That's on our doorstep. If russia,
you know winds were already pretty
conceding that we don't
russia to be rolled out of crimea right and we don't
directed to be rolled out of everywhere in the east. So we are already taking the position that ukraine's now
get all of its territory
So now we're talking about how much europe, which
in and of itself is, is a confession that a completely
territorially intact. Ukraine is not a vital american interests. Could we ve already decided that it's not a vital amount every that so the quest
is how much how long
is there more is there more than we can do on the budget that whereon, where, if we gave or even increasing-
budget that we're on but
We searched it that it would like either
feed the russians are roll them back so much that they would be willing to come to the table. I am open to that idea
But if that's not ought if, if that's not there, then I think we have to talk about how much we willing to do over how long
problem is, as a window for that might have been, might have passed, it might have been the first year and where we should have just given up
no delays give gimme, basically everything they asked ass forth with within reason, and- and maybe
in a different situation, but it looks as though potentially you
and as an hour or so weaken to that that that there are limits step to how much they will cut off as their offensive they're going to be able to have here in the spring, but will will will
underway on that front and a couple months, I'm glad you said that, though, because I think you know what
the things that is going to have to be talked about when this is, I hope, to be taught
now. This is a monumental intelligence. Failure on our part, I I think the
it certainly they're gonna lose
that their we're gonna get rolled over ivy Biden first impulse was to offer.
Xo and ski a ride out of their right. I've been network that was a week
but they will get a role right over the first, it was going to be a minor incursion and then once they started, we were convinced that they're gonna get rounded. So
I'd, never understood why anyone, including the present
I mean why he would idiotically say a minor incursion might be. Ok is just mind boggling, but what on earth did we think it is very clear
firstly to marshal. You know a hundred,
two hundred thousand forces around the country
russia was doing in the months before this happened. What on
made us think that they weren't serious and they were bluffing. I big that wasn't a bluff, so
I just think you
a week we spend rich on on.
intelligence community.
it's a mind, boggling some.
Money, even the port, that's like sort of disagreement
from the rest of the defence budget. That's just like pure intelligence activities, and I think we find
time after time after time, when a critical,
judgment has to be made, which
being very consequential for
years of american history, we get, we get it wrong.
I don't know you do about that. So far too quick plugs two things
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so and it looks like and that the first indictment shoe is going to drop and pretty soon here we have,
this grand jury going in new york over the stormy Daniels. It's like a time capsule kind of thing at great
like all the anderson cooper episodes of michael nottingham of brilliant lawyer in america, the trump had an affair with her,
He denies it on a very unconvincing grounds and then
for this hush money and
If you didn't believe you had the affair, I think when there is
instead to doubt trumps denials it gives pretty sparing with
money payments and it wasn't was paying hush money to anyone. One of us there is good legitimate reason to do it.
So this would be. The offence would be falsifying business wreckers with which is
misdemeanor. But then, then,
if you get it to bootstrap it up to a felony by saying you know it was in the service of some other crime, which I guess is some some sort of camp,
in finance
violation, but how how a minute, let's start off, which is that the time
mechanics of how a minute you think this is good reason to
it gets very eminent like within days. In fact, I thought were talking on thursday and I thought rich. We might be talking about the indictment, the way the butt and I'll I'll get into why, but before I do, I I need to give you.
props here, because we have this running disagreement,
about whether prosecutions of trump help trump or her trump.
in my view, that is, overall, it will hurt trump because I just think it but the
few mutilation of it and the unpredictability of it and the likelihood that they'll be more rather than less ultimately,
well, where on our voters, and hopefully make republicans wary about him
but I think, in the short run, this is so
B. S case that if this is what
they can fly, and I bought the box with
they are going to its going to help tromp because dares
its undeniable
no one who wasn't donald trump would ever be charged
They would never do an investigation for this.
This is a misdemeanor george
and the only way it becomes a felony, as you just mentioned, is it in the bud.
and what we're talking about, as you said, is falsifying business record. So just I know
gone over the stormy, Daniel thing,
in entire, but just to give people
analysis of what the cases about trump through michael
pays a hundred and thirty thousand dollars to stormy Daniels. His real name is Stephanie clifford on the eve of the twenty sixteen election for
a flying that they had ten years before and as you say, I'm on
somewhat inclined to believe that that probably happen as
it is not as tight as
as did the contemporaneous flying with that was Macdougall name
whose name I always whose first I am. I always get confused with the Susa macdougall, but you're not
It happened at around the same time. We should point out.
But that also was like a bad one hundred and forty thousand dollar deal but prosecutors.
Less interested in the macdougall deal than the stormy deal, because trunk didn't pay for the macdougall the deal that was here.
by his pals at the national inquirer who basically bought the exclusive rights to the story and buried right. So what prosecutors are focused on
is the stormy deal
and the reason that they are focused on it is
cohen, lays out this hundred and thirty thousand dollars,
being cohen. He of course says right afterwards, when this came to light that
you know trunk didn't have anything to do with
He did it out, the goodness of his heart, which puts him in the trick bag for potential campaign finance violations with which the sudden,
district of new york federal prosecutors- that's how they got involved in this case in the first instance, but they dropped the case against trump in part. I think, because it's much harder to prove
a campaign, I frankly, I'm not sure that it really was a campaign. Finance violation is too common. I think he plug guilty to because he was trying to get a deal with this.
The district and they wanted you, don't they
try to get trump so they
let him too it's like we we talked about.
Frequently during the more investigation, you want to get the cooperative to plead guilty to the same crime that you want to charge against the other guy.
Because you're a leg up with the jury. If you get some,
it get on the sand and say this crime happened. Then I committed it and I committed it with him. So
haven't district was obviously trying to build a campaign finance case against tromp. The problem is
it probably wasn't even a campaign finance case. It gets cohen for reasons that are com,
carried, that we don't need to get into other
to say it's even harder to put the to build a campaign. Finance case against the principle.
The candidate, because
There is no real spending limits on the cannon
it as their resign on somebody who contribute to the candidate. Now, there's two hours
baxter campaign, finance one- is how
but you're allowed to donate
The second is how it gets reported, so trump did have.
problem with how this gets reported. But the southern district decided that
There wasn't a case there and you know you have to prove that there was a violation in the first place and then you get it.
Whether they reported accurately to the apc sets out a campaign. Violations have been reporting violation like miss characterisation of this or that one didn't account for it at all. If you,
If you decided that it was an incline contribution, it would be a contribution crime as to calling, because
he was stuck with. It was a twenty three hundred dollars, I think was was the back back then, and this is hundred hundred and thirty grand right so have they said this, in fact, our contribution to the campaign correct and with respect to trump he's.
because he was the candidate he can it does not
dollar limit on how much he can contribute to his own campaign, but it still has to be blocked. Accurate,
you can spend as much as you want, but you have to report accurately to the apc. So that day,
They had gotten trump on this. It would have been on the reporting end of it
but they couldn't nervousness outside Europe just difficult owed it to us.
just aggregate, whether he's doing spending the money just it to keep maloney from finding out as opposed to helping its campaign year that end
It's important that you bring that up, because that's going to be the issue that the new york prosecutors have the southern, just
The size of this is such a crappy case. They drop it and
I have said many times having been you know, twenty years in that office, they don't give up cases to the state if they especially gets a sexy defendant. If they think
this case there, but they decided that you know they made an assessment of what there was their evidence wise and they also.
Decided if you're gonna build a case on my
oh cohen, who they adjust convicted of a bunch of fraud, crimes that
the most promising start to you not to take a walk at dropped, so they they dropped the case
the new york county prosecutors, manhattan district attorney pick up the case.
What they are hoping, rich
really that the mother lode that would justify doing this case would be the trump financial records that cyrus vance went up to the supreme court twice
to get right and then they get the those records and they decide that there's no
criminal smoking gun there, even though tis James then took it
did, her rubbed her her civil complying with it, so
they are left with, is the thing they started with, which you stormy, Daniels and
alvin brag, be progressive prosecutor who runs the DA's office was ready to walk away from this case a year ago, but he
at mau mau by the left into maintaining it.
They've called this. The zombie case, because you know it seems to die a million times, and it keeps coming back,
which means it's gotten even more stay. I mean we now talking and twenty twenty three
about an arrangement that was struck in twenty? Sixteen about a fling that happened in two thousand six, but what
I've been here, is
on pay the money and then he seeks reimbursement from trunk
they pay him through the trump organization
combine the payment of stormy with something else that he laid out for raw cyber help for the campaign they double it so that they do
because what they call that is my taxing up, so that they could completely pay him.
Without having to work, reduce it for tax reasons and men
They pay him over a period of twelve months in installments,
in about four hundred and thirty thousand divided by twelve, whatever. That is trop sign,
trunk himself signed. Some of the checks
one of them, they think, was actually signed in the white house, but the payments go from, I want to say, like early,
Twenty seventeen until early twenty eighteen,
This is why, by the way, they still within the statute of limitations, which is, I think, five years for this crime. So
they carry the payments as basic
legal fees to Michael Cowan
rather than as settlement abode of a civil claim. So you know that
they arguably have not documented
accurately on the books? But the books would be.
kept by Alvin weissenburg. Who is the you know that the g
financial officer of the trump organization and
he has claimed, even though the Manhattan DA's office has been squeezing him for years,
claimed any number ties. The trunk didn't know how they bought it.
Though, he was in charge of that even discuss it withdraw so
You have a situation where, if they ve, you know they have Weisgerber who was convicted in the tax case against the trump organization.
That was a minor set of offences. He got like five month sentence. They had been sitting in right to have the seventy six year old man sitting in
bikers island because Detroit,
to get him to get his mind right about. You know whether he discussed booking this serve booking this thing with with the trump or not the payments to the current searches.
ways. I think it's a squeeze. Why would you have this guy in rikers? I mean that's the thing he got convicted of most people wouldn't even be prosecuted, for they get him a fight.
One sentence? They usually have some kind of alternative disposition: new york,
it's tried to let everybody out of rikers island right right there telling you that you know like if you're a gang banger, you don't belong in rikers island, because it's a racial issue
weissenburg, he could sit there right, so
there are obviously squeezing em, but even
let's say he changed his tomb, they would have to disclose it discovery the eight million times he said trump had nothing to do with it. So you don't you
your two main witnesses in this case are Michael Cohen and
you know Alan weissenburg. If they brought him around and stormy great europe,
what a lineup so the
we think that charges may be imminent is because, unlike the
federal system where you're allowed to use here say in the gut
and jury in the state system.
we have to bring the witnesses in to test
there are limits there are strict limits to how much you here say you can use in the grand jury so
Typically, in a state investigation, even
collins testified
a million times is justified and in congress is justified for the southern district, blah blah blah. They
to put him in the grand jury undertaking to bring this case. He was.
the grand jury this week, the
The thing to state typically does is they ask? But
target of a grand jury investigation. If he would like to come in to testify to try to talk to,
grand jury, basically out of returning
they invited donald trump in to testify early this
week, I think, on Monday,
his lawyers. I think it was Joe tack. Pina in this instance, put out a statement saying he is not going to testify the manhattan grand jury. That's that
is it for thinking that the charges are imminent, because these are things you do with the very end. You know
don't bring the you, don't bring the targeted at the beginning of each.
You bring him in at the end. So
presumably now that they
coal in the grand jury and story in the grand jury and trump declining to come into the grand jury.
done everything they need to do to make a decision whether to seek an indictment,
The problem with the case other than you know the witnesses and that stuff that have just laid out is
falsifying records in new york is a misdemeanor the only
It becomes a felony is if the prosecutors
prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defended intended to conceal another.
Crime being committed by the falsification of the records, and in this instance what you would have to prove.
is that there was some other crime that trot knew about it and that that that's the reason they put it away
To my mind, I'm not even sure you can prove that trot knew how they booked it at the big
problem they have is the one that you later
at the beginning, which is that the law
we heard here is the truck- was trying to conceal things. That would
personally embarrassing, rather than something
and he had done that he believed- was criminal and on that score,
I should point out that not
disclosure agreements
even though they are described in dark terms in the media are perfectly legal and there are also a staple of civil.
irrigation. Very often we get these settlements in civil cases,
and we never even get to find out
You know how much money
change, hands
was. What we hear is that
there was a settlement, some
we changed hands, nobody
alex wrongdoing and everything is under seal and that
time and time again those non disclosure raymond arrangement sacred they are generally done not to conceal
closeness but to conceal embarrass
seeing details
he tells that would be against the
most of the people involved. They became public. So there's nothing
all us about having having done an agreement like this on non disclosure terms, how you book it
It is obviously important under new york state law and it
a b that it's against the law to book, something as legal fees when it's not legal fees. But this
it would have to prove another crime to make this a four year. Felony it's been suggested
that the other crime is a campaign, finance violation idle me
and think that's eligible one to new york law, because campaign finances a federal violation and I think the
we sensible way to read the new york statute is when they talk about concealing, and this is a quote from the statute.
Another crime with it.
That is a new york crime, because
That's what the new york penal code is about,
it's not clear what on earth do your crime you're? Maybe its attacks crime? Maybe you know some kind of it's hard to say, but it's not clear what
new york crime trunk
I've been trying to conceal and again
they'll come up with some arcane crime and trumps.
And so I will say well, no, he didn't they just like you said: he'd want mulatto, unified europe so, and I think that's even though
you gotta figure that a manhattan jury is not gonna, like tramp tramp,
very good lawyers on this,
you know there's a lot of times. I think when trump has not been
well served by his legal counsel. He's got top flight defence lawyers
this case will do a very good job and I
see them convicting m of
Seventy on this, so it's gonna look terror.
I mean it's gonna look like so they were they arrest him.
I don't think so. I I would imagine that
run for study probably ride for study. It is a very good defence lawyer whose trumps lawyer here Joe tack subpoenas, also good defence lawyer
Sure they've had discussions with the DA's office that if they take any action, they will invite trump to come in and be processed
They are not gonna wanna tat idea, I mean so
What does that mean? Trump has to come to new york and yeah. He'll have
you know you'll have to france and get will there be a much ass? Yes,
Now, don't you know, there's some laws in new york about how much you are allowed to disclose of all that in substance
the mugshots are available in some shut in some states. They're not
But yes, I've been he'd have to be he's, not
the law. He would have to be he's. Not look,
he's not below the law either, and I make that point.
Cause, no one else would be prosecuted for this. It's preposterous to think anything else. I mean as if as much as earliest she's going to go up fifteen points in the republican primary. That's just that's
team points beyond what the indictment, yet so yeah right so
the terrible care if they get a role, something out against the sky,
It ought to be related to this.
Twenty election because it
least there you, you have an argument that bad
such a tumultuous and consequential event and he
is the driving force behind it, but you'll get some sympathy.
A lot of your mandate, reminding people of of other of that that hurts hurts tromp right
we're not know is going to care about. The very established nolan cared about the affair, so
well to be continued as overtime. Have this part gas been produced by the incomparable Sarah should he thinks I won for listening, and thank you any mccarthy, frankfurt
Transcript generated on 2023-08-10.