Welcome to the Mccarthy report. I guess we're rich larry discuss with Annie Mccarthy, the latest legal and national security issues this week. What else the marilla s special master and ban an indictment? You are, of course, listening to a national you, pod gas. If some reason not our finest stream service, you can find us everywhere, one spot a fighter. Itunes, and please give this progress and Annie Mccarthy the glowing indeed gushing, I start views they deserve on itunes. Now with- further? Do I welcome to this very podcast through the miracle of zoom, none other than Andy Mccarthy? rachel are warrior. Good has gone I'd say I'm fine, it's gone a better fora for us obviously we're we're dealing

with the queen elizabeth passing. and I am just I'm still taken aback by it- As of the young, I looked at the newspaper on it ceased like two or three days ago, and she was meeting in her office with the new prime minister and am the wife and I said she- she looks good univer and then I will be less than two days later comes to newgate well. She probably wasn't feeling great but knew she had to look goods because that's part of the job and that's what she was about was dec. It's doing doing the job and she she was literally an institution issues she formed by shaped by that institution enliven. The foy lived, lived the role and let the tub charles is now old enough

he can do, is tend to do something similar yeah I've. But he worries me, but you know we gotta give em, obviously have to go im chance, but I it's so it's so stunning. I heard this morning the first thing I went out early this morning and are suitably around the car, and the first thing I heard on the radio was somebody mentioned that unless you're in your eighty's, queen Elizabeth, the only queen of england that anyone has ever known- I mean, usually you have these things where you go comes up. As you know, if you're not over forty, this is something they'll be mystify ie. This is like all, everybody on the planet earth do you ever been unify such a consequential, historic a figure there's, never been any other queen the mai. Our british monarch than then we'd Elizabeth. He how it's done It's an amazing you know we all knew was coming in and how to calm and all that stuff. But it's just too it's a remote

but then she is a remarkable parson sunk. So on a grubby or note, and that will constitute the entirety of the rest of the sir podcast that that sorry, there, though the elevated element of our programming. So we have this special master ruling that delved into at length, you have judge, can say saying we need a special master too those are through these, these documents that were were seized. What's what sir going on here and, as is our custom, get give us there that the big broad taken, an old diamond yeah. Well, I'm starting to wonder about my skills as a prognosticate rich, because I think when we talked about this on friday, I had kind of I myself into thinking that even know her The judge, cannons early indications were that,

She was inclined to grant special master, but she was careful to say she hadn't made up her mind. Yet I really at once she saw the papers. were filed that she would not. Because the strength of the government's position, even I think she had reasons to be. Annoyed Some of the some of the things the government did not litigation, but they had the bad or of the argument and it turned out that she really did want. Oh, you know we speculated as we were discussing this last week. That she might wanna just you now throw trump a bomb to make it look like she was doing something saver but otherwise so got the eye, the idea of a special council or a special master, that It would be almost nominal. It turned out? I don't think that's what happened at all and she she,

really gave him a special master which is peculiar. I think, because if we, we noted last week, the tab This department was already through their privilege, river, due process the time she ruled agnes, which is one of the things I got the tab, annoy her about the way the government who perform it occurs to me, as I am saying this that I before I tried to give the tenth foot view. I should just like review with people. What especial master is a these contest contact, otherwise, they'll they'll not know we're talking about in any situation There are a variety of reasons why you would have an especial master in complex litigation, but the most common one and the one that we're talking about here. Is any situation where the government c visas. The government executes a search warrant.

a place where there is apt to be lots and lots of privileged information about the common situation. Is the lawyers office where the after men has gotten a search warrant because they believe the lawyer is involved in the crime or a client of the lawyer is involved in the crime and they'll be evidence on the on the premises when used virtual lawyers office especially say a busy defence lawyer the amount of information that actual than it be actually going to be relevant to the case that your investigating verse is all of the potential phillip Would you information in the lawyers office that it is small? I mean the amount that you're looking for a small, and The problem is that if the project but who are investigating the case, get access two attorney client privileges, privileged information that relevant to the case. they then find out what the with the protected

confidence is, are its the amendment violation it exposure to defence strategy in the case and what the this is basically say, as the prosecutors could be disqualified. It's also a doctrine of the law that, if you build a case based on privileged information. This come up in a variety of contacts, most most usually the context where the government give someone immunity from prosecution so that you could get their fifth that you ve been you. Can force them to testify. They no longer have a fifty men privilege, if you turn around and prosecute somebody after that, what the cat, this is basically hold. Is that even if you show the court your decision to prosecute was based on the information you knew before you got the immunize testimony they'll, throw out the

it's because they figure the operation of your mind is affected by what you ve heard as a process from the and in the way of privileged information. So the justice department really does I can a tested. This personally make really bent over backwards to try to avoid being exposed privileged information, not because their great guys and because they should do that. constitution, we help they are, but it is, it's really self preservation, because your case can get thrown out, you can get disqualified spell. What happens in normal cases, when the government, this I shouldn't say normal because This is not the usual situation, but it's not so unusual that there's not a process work. If the government has to do a search warrant for like that, it has internal process where you have two or three lawyers government lawyers born.

not involved in the criminal investigation, I do the first cut through everything that was seized. They try to pick out. Anything that looks like it is a privilege so that ultimately when the law, when the prosecutor, is any fbi agents in this case who instigating the case file get access to the evidence that was seized in the search it doesn't contain any of the privileged information that would take them as far as the prosecutions concern. So that's the set up and now what's the special master. Well, if it was your the information that was seized, You wouldn't want the government unilaterally to be making the decision about what the price, the duties were able to see and what they weren't you're not gonna, be covered. but with the justice department telling you

worry will have another buncher prosecutors. Go through this to decide what the other prosecutors get to see. So what people will commonly asked for in this situation is a special master. That's a lawyer whose appointed by the court usually in consultation with both parties, the what's what happens in most cases and what happening in this case today, as a matter of fact is the lawyers for both parties, get together and- either agree on a person or they pose like two or three p, each, and then the court decides special master will be The special master is in a of the court whose a neutral party and go through all the privileged information to make sure that the defendants, privileged information, is not getting is being tat it is not getting to the to the prosecutors on the case. What trump wanted here was,

special master to go through all of these seizures, for moral logo, rather than The justice department internally determine what the corral prosecutors got to say. So that's what that's what this was that's what this was all about: the first place and on the merits, both her decision you're a little doubtful, she's she's saying that beer, trump may have an executive privilege, claim here, or at least it is not clear cut, as the government says. Yes, I'll rip, I think it's really clear cut and I the judge really bent over backwards just start out with what executive privileges executive privilege? Is it? But it's village that existed ever since we ve had pressed it's under the constitution, but it wasn't recognized by the courts really until the Watergate era and

in those cases, famously than the one in nineteen. Seventy four involving the watergate tapes present. next and try to assert exec you privilege to prevent these special prosecutor forget access to the tapes and the supreme court and nineteen. Seventy four recognise that there has always been privilege of the executive branch over the communications between the president and his viruses because apps that you wouldn't have efficient policy making. If you had to worry, if everybody had to worry when they went in to have a meeting over big decision that The next day, what are they? stir something happened. That was controversial in congress, the congress would start subpoenaed. Everyone in europe could be your daddy Frankie I see that you try to give the president would become a public. Then

nobody would give their best advice to the president said This whole idea is the executive branch can govern efficiently and it has been expanded overtime to include not only communications between the president and his top advisers, but also executive work pop a prospect that flows from that, including communications among subordinates in the executive branch to carry out the president's policy so that what executive privileges. So you could see right away. I think. a problem here, which is why we former president have executive privilege, executive privileges to the protection of the executive branch. It's not for the protection of the individual person who happens to be president its for the efficient conduct of the executive business. It's not for

The personal potential liability, like the fifth amendment, is it's not for the personal potential liability of a europe of a particular a person who happened to hold the office at one point, so proposition here. Is that tromp as Former president, he's saying that he has executive privilege, because even though he's a former president, if you don't You ve confidentiality to his presidential communications, then all key Presidents have to worry that one day, a former president that that, when their term is over, there come occasional and those of their of the top aids will become public and you You don't have the same problem, which is that once it becomes once you know, what's gonna become public than young people. Don't their best advice to the president and the president kid deliberate enough. in an honest way, with this top adviser, so

The argument is that it's the same problem, even if you're a former president, constitutionally speaking the the problem with that. Is there the end, and this again we talked about this case in number times, but discuss back to justice. Scully is famous. Sat morrison be also where he says in nineteen. Eighty, eight that in our system. Framers literally in the constitution, vested all executive power in one officer, the president of the united states. The only person in the government who has executive power? The only person in the world that has american executive power is the president. So little a former president who doesn't have any powers, not even in a government official How could he have executive privilege? and then in this case you have to take it the net. step, which is trumpet saying not

we do. I have executive privilege, I can executed against the executive branch in the interference of the executive branches, core responsibilities which clued investing it in crime. Joy crime that may affect national security and I came down intelligence, which, is the real, but essentially the property of the executive branch which the president always had on Us plein Eric control over the yet the disposition of so much. The saying is, even though he's out of power, he not only can exert a sort executive her which he can asserted against the boy, administration investigative agencies in a matter that may be a very serious matter as far as our national security is concerned. So I think it's a good reason to doubt all this, but it's like trump, is poland. This out of the sky there

nineteen? Seventy seven case. I think that we have also talked about called Nixon against administrator. This is this post war, a case written by- justice Brennan, which is not a model of a linear thinking, I must say, but equally what what Brennan says for the court? out of one side of his mouth- is oh yes, former president, must have executive privilege because their communications have to be protected. Otherwise the current president would have you know all the things we just said and then at the other side of his mouth he says, but it can be overcome in an approach, for your case, if it's gotta be balanced against an interest that overcomes it and in a case, they said the interested overcame. It was The general service administrations need to have act.

MR presidential information, so it could archive it for government records purposes. So if that need overcomes a former presidents executive privileged to the extent of former to the before president, has it, how could it not? be the case that the whatever privileged there is, would be overcome by zack of agencies who are conducting a criminal investigation of the mishandling of classified information on this. Stance stances where, if they dont track down the classified information, we to worry that methods and sources of intelligence have been compromised and the country may have a security problem. So if you don't just seems to me that it tell if, if the Nixon if Nixon's privilege, which they recognised in that case, wasn't enough to overcome the general services administration. How on earth could trump have that would overcome the bite. Administration in this case

So a couple other problems as well there's a question whether this case is properly before judge cannon and whether she has jurisdiction, also trumps stanley. We want you to get in detail and into all these, but but very briefly, just just hit hit on the other problems. This man, yeah. She said you know. Basically she says: she's jurisdiction, riches and equitable court and a court of equity. You don't you kind of weighing the the merits of each side and when she decided to hop in and on time we have here when she's weighing the relative merits of the case, which she leaves out, is that You know this is supposed to be an emergency application. If you really need a special master and trumpet the two weeks to seek it. And then the judge waited another two weeks to wool sober the time you know they got to it, This was already

It was already the government had already been through its process, and then the other thing which I think This kind of AL trotted. Take these two together because its both it goes to you. Detection and standing what the judge relied on in saying that trump had an interest here. Is that Some of this stuff that was seized out of mara lago was trump's own personal property, and that's true but its beside the point? It would be would be very relevant if what was moving for was a return of property under the under the normal rules of criminal procedure. But what trump is asking here is for special master to decide, privilege issues and that the document that are relevant to the privilege question or not trumps, personal documents, there, the government documents and they're not trumps documents and also, on the one hand they

really don't cut in his favor in terms of air but he and, on the other hand, with respect to standing, sits there. He is documents Does it really have a property interest in what happens to them, so on, both those scores that rule he caught against drop and yet she relied on those factors. As part of the reason to intervene here with especial master, so there was a decision d, o j had to make whether to appeal or not they. It has appealed and have limited it just to watch. You ruled on classified documents trying to avoid going to potentially embarrassing appeal of the entire ruling for her and giving her in and out just on what the idea is most concerned about here. Also, some more- and this has been a theme here- a stir

several weeks set some more worried. Some indicators for tramp in this deal J filing yeah. So the dilemma that the justice department had here rich is, I think they think they have a very strong legal powers. I certainly think they have a very strong the opposition, but you know appeal: the time consuming and On the other hand, they may not like the special master, but if they got if they got the appoint, the special master that they will comfortable with and that they believe would apply the law correctly. Would be infuriating for them to have to like delay for, say three weeks, while the special master went through everything they ve already done and and said yeah, they implemented their process correctly, but it it would be three weeks and it would be over and then they be on what the, investigation, whereas if I appeal to the eleven circuit. You know or better

roth because you're, not in control of the eleven circuit, will be in control of the calendar. Not, though not the justice department and every could be frozen while the eleven sarka deliberates over there still you can try to get an expedited appeal, but you can force the court of appeals to do it so there in this dilemma? Where, they have a strong position where they can probably prevail in the appellate court, but it would take a long time and in the meantime, you have this national security problem of unaccounted for classified information, national defence secrets or they swallow hard and go along with a special master hoped to get through it and be back on as far as the investigation, goes in a couple of weeks. So the way they ve tried to read this needle and we're talking on as his arm. asked him the a midday on friday last.

Night or less than a line from me and if I did yeah well, good line could lie so yesterday late? They do the justice I ve been filed their motion. I think what they did here is pretty clever rich. What they did was. They said to the judge. Luck we appealing yet, but where thinking about it. And the most important thing to us as the classified information, so we're doing as we asking you to stay the ports of your order. That told us We cannot use the classified information during our criminal investigation, and that Force us to give the classified information to a special master, and if you want those back by next thursday

then we won't appeal will just go ahead with my apologies for care, miss characterizing it as an appeal, while no equality that they call their motion, emotion, pen, appeal, but the way there explain. It is where we are now taking the first steps that we would have to take to appeal. But you can you can for fend this by you. Don't do the right thing here and realising that he doesn't have a conceivable claim of executive privilege of classified documents. They are not his They are not communications, we need them, and even if he had some illusory or war- redo dubious privilege to assert here easily be overcome by the government's interest in conducting this investigation, even if it wasn't a national security investigation, which it is here so there

basically saying for all these reasons, we should when- and in fact we think we should went on everything, but we're only asking you for now about these. One hundred documents is thousands of documents that was seized at moral logo. We're confined what we are saying here now to the hundred documents. What they argue, what they argue is by the law. I of your own decision, you should give us what we want here, because You said in your ruling judge cannon even though you were suspending our ability to do the criminal investigation. You want to showed that it was very important that the intelligence community get the document so that they could do the damage is so simple Certainly you already. You ve already made a conclusion that his whatever privilege he has it doesn't overcome. Every that of interest. And now you have to realize that

The criminal investigation cannot be disaggregated from the risk assessment that these secure it that the intelligence community is doing because, as port that risk assessment one at that you stay would do, is try to track down the missing documents and try to I witnesses and find out how the documents were handled and where the documents might be. So they would have to do the thing you ve told us that we and do in order to do the thing that you ve told us we can do so what Basically saying is number one by the by the logic of your own decision. No privilege here and number two Even trump has undermined the privilege, because remember, we talk last week about the fact that the justice Portman gave him a grand jury subpoena in may. And men that that ended up in this meeting at mar a on june third, where

Tromp in his lawyers met with the justice, corbett lawyer and three fbi agents and they had given them a subpoena saying. We want everything, that's more classified, and we want a statement from you that you ve done a diligent search, and this is all there is. When they went down tomorrow, mar a I didn't say I can give you this these classified documents, because I have executive privilege, you would get my You know my my privilege communications. He gave them the documents. So he didn't make an executive rebel giant because he knows he doesn't have one so Basically, they say on even from his undermined his own claim and on the logic of the judges own. Ruling on this, you should fall and what we want you to do on the hundred documents. Now the point here is, if she walks back a ruling on the classic information. What

that would mean is number one, the most important thing to the government as they can they can I use the classified documents in their continuing criminal investigation, which right now they're not supposed to do. The second it would do riches it would take the classified woman out of the special master, That would mean you wouldn't have to get a special master with a very high security clearance, which you wouldn't if they had to go through these documents. So that that makes the point full of potential special masters bigger and it means they could get one. In place quicker, and but the government is confident of is, if the judge makes this rolling. special master will see the trumps privilege, This really not much to it. So if you were I have a special mastered in place and they through all the rest of the documents with the special masters, stay as yet the government did it right, they d, you know they did their privilege review correctly. So

doesn't slow up their investigation materially probably went in the end, and they don't have to go through the delay of an appeal. So that's what they're? That's? What they're, hoping the initial signals- and we now have to follow initial signals with discharge right because she seems to follow them, when she, when she makes em the original. The initial signal we get out of judge a cot Mcconnell at a conall ass night, can I'm sorry, I want why keep saying Conner The original the initial signal we get out a judge cannon last night. Is she take the governments, locating pretty seriously here. She told the trump team that she, That's an answer from them by monday, at ten o clock in the morning and in the meantime, she said when you guys are working out the special esther, which this both sides is posted, submit something to the court on that today.

the judge said you should be mindful of what the government has applied for here so Its tea leaves again, but I think that the euro is a very good chance that she'll if the government what they want- and I think the reason one of this The reasons is that I think he's gonna see that she's apt to get reversed here just don't like to get reversed. They met. If he makes the government do a wholesale appeal. It might be a humiliating reversal. It might be like a wholesale. repudiation what she's done, and, in the meantime what the government is saying is look if you back off the port of your opinion indefensible. Then we an appeal at all, and it will all come out. Fine and she can say that she still gave trumps something because she gave him no special master and they went through the other documents

but in the meantime she's not going to stop the the justice department, the fbi from doing the most import. an parlor investigation which is running down the classified information It's just seems to me like a sensible offer them for her, There might be a lot of personal as well as legal reasons why she might go along with it does the final thing on this and then we're going to get to yet another trump related investigation. This one over the EU is fundraising operation, but so that the d o J is basically suggesting that there is still classified documents at more logo or missing, or also destroy that thereafter yeah they come out in the in the filing rich and they basically say we have to continue this criminal investigation and you have to take wraps off us, so that we can do this aggressively, because we have reason to believe that there were still missing documents that their end,

This goes, I think, to the report that we heard in the last several days that there were few. The aid envelopes classified information that were empty in what they found em don't at this point understand each other, the obviously the intelligence community is trying to round up what should have been in those envelopes and how many copies there were and if there's anything missing button in time, they need to track down like where did this go where but now how come the envelopes are empty, it did. He take empty envelopes with him from washington, did he have stuff in the that he took out moral logo when they might be someplace. These suggestions here is rich, a twofold number, one they're still pushing the obstruction lie like you know that Maybe he may be concealing stuff. But you know him not be being straight with them

there's that track and it And you know we haven't seen the poor noble cause part of the worn out, david. So we I know what they represented to the court in the way of of obstruction evidence, but clear that you know their basically saying that the trumpets jerkin them around about where all the stuff is and the other thing. Obviously, is We may be in a situation where they're saying the espionage act, offences or not in the past, that there may be ongoing criminal activity, and if that's the case, they discovered that that's the case the edging ever closer to the good? throw up their hands in charge of sky yeah It was pause and we do real, quick club for and our last digital subscription service at national. You d come your way around are increasingly,

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with exclusive cause in advance for their writers editors and serve. The news makers. Had a car with There are a couple of weeks ago for subscribers envy de charlie, and I did a zoom call with about eighty and our first. Describe yesterday. Just the whole idea is to have a small group that just just have people throw out whatever they're interested in questions comments which is bad and around so that there's always a lot of points anyway of benefits to our place doesn't cost much, plus it really a suit that help. Support are you journalism. So if you already signed up, please consider doing it especially if you ve been giving money to trump, sir post election and stop the steel fundraising effort made by just modestly suggestion. You can send a little money are our way as well. So any we gotta.

I'm proud of this one as well grand jury, tina subpoenas that information communications between trump with was trumps post election, lawyers, some of whom are now quite and the mass what's goin on here and then that how live as this one million umbrage. I think that It could be alive But we also always have to bear in mind that there are, political aspect to this as well, and I'm still not, convinced that the you know the Democrats aren't you gonna egg trumpet to running and that there's that spectable, others too, and the rest. The reason I point this out, as you know, we're I'm. Looking at all the moral august searched up and then all of a sudden it seems to be a coordinated set of news reports,

to remind us that the january Six investigation is still going, and they have various threads of it and the threat that the media hit this week. Now they could be reached think what they ve heard about. You don't grandeur. venus, but the threat that they decided to hit this week in the middle of the moral logger stuff is the fund were raising and the fund raising is not new. The fund raising is a threat that the january six community in the part of the investigation was run by sullied bluff Grendel the congresswoman from I for one year. The Democrat, They had a fairly substantial presentation on this. In one of the hearings, we love and claim that trump had raised two hundred and fifty million dollars post election and suggested that a lot of it had of been raised on false pre dances. in the sense that

trump was hitting donors, through thereof Electronic operation, sometimes twenty five fund, raising appeals, per day, urging, people to contribute and the suggestion was that they contribute would go to something called trumps official election defence fund, an attorney according to the january six committee, there was no official. Election defence thought at least the suggestion by the committee is that this is a scam and now it looks like the justice department is looking at it like it's a scam and I'm sure republicans and looking at it with envy rare speak, because this this thing that trouble Tromp establishes this pact, which is while the save america pack He establishes it with the federal election commission on diesel I'm sorry november- ninth of twenty twenty, so in other words right after the media files.

Pull the trigger and says that Biden has won the election tromp in as part of those stop the steal effort establishes. this fund, raising operation and the reasoning of I'm sure the republicans looking at it with such envy is its speck, actual are apparently, or at least was raising money from from low dollar donors. Their operation. Is it. It sounds like it. It's six slowly accomplished everything that they say Rick Scott was trying to accomplish. For example, at the up at the senate, camp right well, maybe with reason: rick Scott couldn't succeeded, trumpet gotten all the money slow dollar daughters by bed, but in any event they have they have a chest rich that dwarfs the republican national committee has. They start they were able to bring in

after december, but I'm sorry november, ninth a hundred five million dollars which trump thirty million to from his campaign just so. They start out with a hundred and thirty five million. even now, oh after spending their re six million, they have Ninety nine million dollars of cash on hand, comparison. The media reports today say that tibet that tibet Three times with the orange. She has. Ninety nine yards he's got about thirty three and a half hour or so yet another does republican political consult. My check in with you know a couple of ways just take his temperature. What's going on and almost every time we talk, and you will degrade trump spent, some of that money yeah this out book, while he's spending it, but they may not like what he spending in it. I mean obviously sitting on a lot of it for a variety of reasons, but, for example, they spent four

Point two million dollars rich to try to defeat Brian camp. How is that a is that a republican priority? Is that a republican priority, but now is what the that was, the one, the biggest expenditures, but it looks like They ve spent a lot of money on the biggest slice of money they spent was eight point seven million dollars that they gave to an outfit called event strategies. That's the group that ran the january sixth rally so that without such an immense amount of money or a measure that is properly name group, it was quote, was quite the event it was quite the event starck, I would say you know that they are paying salaries of of people who are working at various trump connected interests. they paying for some of the people who are caught up in, investigation, for example, according to the press reporting christina bob,

The lawyer, who we ve, talked about, who sign that sworn declaration? marilla go on june. Third, I guess got pretty significant legal bills, cheese, apparently on the whatever payroll she's on is being underwritten by this according to the press, reporting dave eighty less money, but but still an eyebrow raising amount to work, trump hotel properties which work in court. raided into some of the activities that they were involved in, but one look what it looks like bridges that not a lot when to you know anything along the lines of trying to prove that there was actual election fraud. Which seems to have been the main reason that this was that this was done. and again there sitting on an awful lot of money which doesn't seem to be moving in campaigns

so that this this feels to me and going to talk. That's too bad it. a minute stay ban. A wall thing is just just teams broad if it was just flat out fraud, but this The trump fundraising feels a little more ambiguous to me because if, if you're going to nail him on this, how many political outfits engage in sort of similar advertising seems inherited. The business I would wonder what you're rum, what you pull. the consultants friend would say about this, because as I read these stories. I mean I look the prosecutor for a long time we do a lot of fraud cases. You know you raise money on false pretences and then you spend it on other stuff, that's pretty good for fraud case

but my senses always been there's a lot of this kind of fur Gacy stuff that goes on in politics and do damage rats. I mean I'm going to ask the same question. I asked probably every other week on this podcast, which is to denmark, it's really want to live in the world that their creating me too Democrats want. Republicans they're gonna get power, probably sooner rather than later. You don't do they want to be in a situation where political fund raising operations are such the kind of scrutiny that there apparently going to give this. Do we want to have like January six committee type arrangements where it's like a one, unilateral committee and they don't actually do hearings. They do propaganda, tv presenter, I mean. Is that really what we want, and I think fortunately, trumpet

not the only person, I'm not trying to defend trump, but trump is not the only person around here who's breaking norms, and I just wonder if the people who are breaking them are going to be happy to live in a world yeah, So speaking bringing norms and law. We have this, sir. we build the wall. Fundraising ever banner was indicted over his role and letter is getting about a million hours off of this. After the rays. What twenty five trot pardoned him there several other, people involved in this scheme, who were also indicted and not pardon I tramp and a couple of them are right: they're going to jail one. There is a mistrial supposedly because there was a you're, who was just wasn't gonna convicted he's gonna, be Retried any have this prosecution.

In prosecution. Well, re indictment of of bad and by new york state authorities, not double jeff. you can explain- Why? But you wrote a column about this, were you like? As this? You know this was abusive pardon, but is this really the best way to to go about it? But let me take it I'll. Let you take it away, yeah, why? I think that you say you ve really set it. That's what you're not basically pick your poison deal like the corrupt poured nor the porters sized prosecution. We got it off warrior one way in one way or the other, but you don't know there's no defending trumps pardon of banning if there were any defending it, he wouldn't have poured just ban, and he would have important, though the co defendants as well. So this was not a careful executive exercise of climate sea, because because

prosecutor oriental overreach. This was a favour that was down from for political crony. I I thought for a long time rich that we should get real, pardon power, I would buy, would I'm an end, the constitution to repeal it. I think it's a vestige of time that doesn't exist anymore, the protect. Instead, we have in the law now far from it the finance and making sure that there are not disparate. Treatment of stimulus situated people the levels of pellet review that you have now. The levels of internal justice department, rebuke, member, the justice department itself didn't even exist one the constitution started in the bend. The board and power originally started so. I think the defining each of you now just going back. You can probably go back before before Clinton, but certainly since Clinton, the defining feature of the pardon process has been its notorious corruption. I mean that

I don't, I can't think of any cases where no people, look at a pardon and say she you know that really was prosecutor real overreach, I'm glad the president came in and then tempered that, especially since the justice Bachmann answers to the president's right, so I don't I dont think important powers that something that you need any brings a disgrace. So the government you I just I just dont no other way to any other way. To put it so you Have this pardon and then you have new york where people who wield prospects torreon power system where you elect prosecutors and government lawyers come too office, promising that they're gonna use their power to go after trump and to go after p, who are aligned with tromp, which is now

it shouldn't be anybody's idea of equal protection under the law or how the current- Justice system ought to be administered, so I mean here you have alvin. Bragg has has a darkness indictment of banning and no doubt the constitutionally speaking he can do it. The poor and power. The president, sport and power affects only federal process fusions and federal trials and convictions It has no effect on stay proceedings, just like a governor can't pardon in august This can poured in state prisoners and state the defendants that, doesn't have any impact on on federal charges, so we have tools anti system. As far as its concern and ban and has no protection under the double jeopardy clause, because essentially because trump him so early in the day.

Ro proceedings that he was never taken to trial and generally slay the constitutional law says that jeopardy does not. Attach and criminal prosecution until the trotted until the jury is sworn right before the opening statements and in a trial that jeopardy attaches. If that hasn't happened, yet you don't have any jacket double jeopardy climb. So he has no double jeopardy klein and they still today they actually in new york where this is popular politically. They actually changed new york law to war. her down people's due process protect, in order to make it easier to prosecute trump people. They did it for manafort, and you know it's now being applied to all these other tromp people betty they didn't get away with it with man afford by the way is that when they attempted to prosecute him that case got thrown out, but that because metaphor went through to full blown federal trials.

Whereas ban and never got anywhere near that point so anyway, so you're, that's what you're dealing with- and here you have alvin brag whoop. secured anyone. I mean violent crime in new york that that, pop your eyes open the The major crimes in new york are up thirty, six percent. At this point in the calendar over last year, which was a high crime year, the trend lines in new york are terrible and the reason their terrible is because a progressive prosecutors like Alvin brag who have based we told people than I could enforce the laws. So I have to say it I find it perverse that real pardon street criminals are getting a break and scorching the earth to to get these trump guys? And it's not just Bannon, it's you they just indicted, they just gotta

vision of the sky, Alan weissenburg, who was absurd financial guy fifteen In piddling little tax violation, that they wouldn't prosecute against any one else, but they went after with this guy and the main reason they the deal they did with him, is their home to get his cooperation in the trial that they're gonna have next week against the trop neck nets with next month hence the against a trump real estate organization. So I just think you know is, is banned in big trouble. Yes, it looks to me like the two guys that you mention ritual plug guilty. They're gonna get so in December there looking at up to five years in jail, probably under the guidelines, this guy, want to trial, he got you gotta hungary, as you mentioned,

But if he gets convicted, you know he almost plug guilty before we decide to go to trial. If he gets convicted, he's gonna get some time, and if ban and gets can it didn't estate, he's gonna, be looking. I mean the statutes will say it'll be up to over twenty years. Now he won't get twenty years, but you know he'll have do some time oh, yes, it's a serious case. yeah do the way I come down at it and sisters? First, impressions just I don't particularly like the wiser burke thanks, it's so protectable, it's so minor. You know as clearly he's trump's account, and you know if you go through the same thing. Having worked with for anyone else for decades, obviously wouldn't be. The kid- and I think, that's really bad thing was, as we talked about I think result the same page up. We are largely because I'm always influenced by you on these things, but a january six prosecution of trump unless there's some evidence that we're not aware of would be a stretch and a precedent

breaking the diet and credit cards he therefore present, etc. When do it, but bad just seems so such a clear. This is more like shooting someone on fifth avenue I'd say not by a crime, but he does stole money from people. You know it's horrible and dislike clear cut I am sir. So that's. Why am I not mind? It is as much that there's a Political motivation here could seems a clear cut case. Look, I'm not gonna knock, I'm not you know. right crocodile tears. For Steve the ally. I've always had to the muttered accent. I know him. I've always had a good relationship with him. Personally. I've never had like a public spat with him or anything, but you know if you'd, if, if you were here, don't you He's gotten himself into a lot less gems, and you know I I

pathetic is I can try to You personally to someone, you know you don't get too. When you get a congressional subpoena, you don't get to say screw you, I'm not complied with the spain. At the end, if you gotta do fund raising where you're telling the public we're gonna spend every single dime on walking trojan- and it turns out if it does turn out that you skimmed a million dollars off that you used it for personal expenses. Those people go to jail, I used to put them. In jail myself and I didn't lose a second asleep over. So you know I mean you, you you play near the fire. This is what happens yeah, but it didn't different tat. I just find it so for another day so frustrating that's it steam abandons listeners to his podcast hate. I don't know pick pick and you know that day, David French, more than they there and they live? Steve ban and other all the french dancer to argue against. Various interested benefits has abused,

the trust these. These people wanted a boar wall, its interest it. So it's that anyone does it a topic for another day. Sir Andrew covered a lot here as usual, but that's all the time we have. This part gas been produced by the incomparable, sir thanks. I want for listening and thank you thanks, roach,