The welcome to the making sense, podcast this missus SAM Harris just a note to say that if your hearing, this you're not currently honour subscriber feed and will be here in the first part of this conversation in order to access full episodes of the maidens has podcast you'll need to subscribe harris. Dot. Org very also find our scholarship programme where we offer, accounts. Anyone can afford one We don't run ads on the pod cast and therefore made possible entirely to the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy- we're doing here. Please consider because

today. I am speaking with Chris Anderson. Chris has been the curator of the famous ted conference since two thousand and one the tagline of ted is ideas worth spreading, of which there have been many for a shared at ted. The title of his new book is infectious generosity. The ultimate idea worth spreading.

and that is in part the topic of today's conversation. We talk about the new spirit of cynicism. This seems to surround any notion of doing good in the world in tech and finance at the moment, the problems with diversity, equity and inclusion d. I the controversy that enveloped common hughes when he spoke at ted last year and we get into the topic of christmas book proper returned with the science of generosity, the leverage offered by the internet, the false opposition between selfishness and selflessness. Next motives in giving risk holds verses reward, trying to see the good in people. Digital business models, including my own business model, for the spot, cast the economics of ted ted, ex wealth inequality, the ethics of billionaires, philanthropy at scale, the power of pledges, the arguments of Peter singer, the sand bagman freed scandal

and the problems with effective, altruism how to improve our digital lives and other topics. Is there a more important topic then trying to figure out how to inspire the look? He has among us to do more good in the world, given the implications, I'm not sure, and I bring you. Anderson I'm here with Chris Anderson chris thanks. We join me great bs em. So you have a new book infectious generosity, the. from an idea worth spreading, which I want to talk about, which mrs seems like now is the moment for such a book. It's really m is great that you, written us, but most people know you as the owner and curator end impresario of the ted conference. What did you do professionally before ted? I was a journalist at a university, I think of it.

everyone wants to be a physics professor, and what I found physics for hard at oxford and and switched course pathway three to politics of philosophy and ended up as a journalist and and then fell in love with computers in the early nineties eighties and started a magazine publishing company fourg, hobbyists ned. He computer mags, which turned out to be very fortunate timing and the other companies. While came to america eventually continue to grow it and then had a horrible tangle with they dont come crashes, two thousand thousand one ended up, leaving the company which had come public by this stage, but left, it ended the sideways move into tat, which was a conference at first one. Two in nineteen o eight and fallen over there and dumb had a chance surprisingly to buy it from the owner I don't have any money because of the dock combats, but I did have a foundation so is the foundation? The board ted

and set found itself in a non profit- and I've been that's been most of my time since since then really since two thousand one What what when you say you had a horrible tangle with the dot com bust what were you one of these people? Who a billion dollars on paper and then watched it get halved every fifteen minutes until it it it vanished over the course of a day, or maybe it wasn't that kind of experience. What exactly happened? Pretty much, I'm not sure I quite like, maybe for five minutes after one company went public and hit the billion mark, very quickly fell away. Now for eighteen months I been lost, on average, a million dollars, and it was on its not just that it I mean that it really it's your usage of self of sense of self worth, I'm alike, because I I'd told this fantasy to myself tat. I was this in our successful entrepreneur, everything it always gone up into the right and in other company for years the company

doubled in size every year, and it just felt in easy and great and then This happened and I and his real lesson really dont tie up too much of your happiness and sense of self worth your business or what what you do I'll even outside the recipe for disappointment, I went through a very difficult eighteen months and and kind of got survived there. I think by reading and getting just entering remembering how amazing the world of ideas is and how much cool sites was happening. I haven't really disk. That eventually biology. There was so many things that I got into for the first time and that that made the prospect of a move ted and are living in that world. Incredibly, appealing him at the time as it was an annual conference, nothing else, but hey all these interesting people, and it felt like a real respite from the ugliness of of

in the dotcom crash, where you had two thousand people at one point. We have to let go of them, and it is. This is a powerful way is a horrible time I want to talk about wealth and philanthropy in and all these, these intersecting issues macao has given you a front row seed to see the social phenomenon I want to discuss. and many which relate to the topic of your book, which is briefly at ea. Written a book about. How we can do more good in the world through energy, new norms, around generosity and especially as becomes possible, in the age of the internet, Emily related to changing the possibility of being generous and interesting ways. But before we jump into that. I want to knowledge that there's this new spirit of the system in the air with wherein it seems it almost any conspicuous efforts to do good in the world now seem suspect and that this relates to

various degrees to things like he s, g, environmental, social and governance, investing effect of altruism DE I may diversity, equity, inclusion efforts and others sense, especially among influential people intact and in finance, that all of this duff amounts to little more than a sanctimonious scam resolved alters virtue, signalling it's just a leads marketing to elites, and it I've been critical of many of these things, I m actually especially critical of d. At the moment, but also worried that what we have here is a situation in which some of the luckiest and smartest people in the world, appear to have drawn the wrong lesson from some specific recent embarrassments and they they appeared, now think that altruism and generosity and compassion are basically bogus when worldwide damn to live in where we play this game for ourselves and

Perhaps our family and a few friends make it into the lifeboat with us, but otherwise We should just be narrowly selfish without apology and, in fact, there's an attraction to theirs me the really apotheosis. If this is someone like trump pointing the way you have half the country idle in a man who makes no pretense of being other, then, malignantly selfish right in the end, if you can be just because nakedly selfish and merely selfish, One of the superpowers you acquire is that it's impossible to be a hypocrite and it s the moments of hypocrisy that many people have found so despicable in our efforts to do good to have someone like sand, bagman freed or you have the deed yeah. I bureaucrats who are apparently unable to condemn it, as for genocide against the Jews, is assured easy to see why wrong here, a minute I'm thinking of one with were the with respect yes g now. You have

This year we had the spectacle of lots of right thinking, people fly in their honour private jets to a climate conference right. Incisors people see this and now they began to default to a new norm of cynicism and selfishness and challenges. I want to talk about the problems such as they are yesterday, in fact about with him in the eye and these other issues, but wondering if you share my concern that the pendulum is in the process of swinging back into something like an iron randy in fairly psychopathic ethic of basically no social responsibility yeah. I think you're right to be concerned. And I'm sent me worried about it, I think different people would probably tell the story in different ways, but there's there's no question that the techno optimism of say the early two thousands

when it really seem like either framed the internet, for example, is bringing the world together. Lots people had the narrative that, while this is wonderful, see people on the other side of the world. Maybe this exciting new technology can spread things like freedom and democracy in and in some of the ideas that we care about and the narrative of the last ten years has been the opposite of that it's been and I've. I felt I felt it through my ringside seat at ted. If you like, of this growing sort of sense of crushing disappointment that to the internet was not doing what we thought it would do, it was actually helping in under the opposite, andrea somewhere around somewhere around the rise of social media. The election of down from the war became v, a very, very divided- and it was it was almost. The only thing you could be- was to pick a tribe and then find and dumb and be really annoyed at the other side and.

Those were the method of fur fervent conversations I mean, I think one am. I think, and I hope that a lot of people have got really sick at how mean the world has become an actually there but you're right that there is a lot of cynicism and exhaustion at the way out frame. It's some, I think is, is almost at the language that each side, it has fallen into the language of de. I has become itself sensitive singsong thing that is is almost invisible to the people who are in it and his sounds so exhausting and and mind numbing and an annoying to people who on, and it makes It- it's impossible to have actually conversation about the he'll things that underlying it. You know that the real reason why d I happened originally was the that, were injustices in the world and that there are groups of people who have been given

the fair shot, and there was a need and a desire from the thinking people to try to do something about that, but it turn in it it it walked into. try ballistic language as the shaka, so that you can even have a discussion. What the actual merits of the case, it was just. Oh you use that word. I know who you are. I can't talk to you. You make me sick and it's it's. Instead of, I think- and I hope that there are lots of people who have got really weary of that world, and there there's a desire and sit in the next in the generation coming through. But I think in generation as well too that this this can't go on, and I I you know part of my sort sense of urgency about this, as if we can't figure out how to start. Listening to each other, talking to each other working together, collaborating we're not going to be able to solve any of the giant problems that the term the future is is throwing up an agenda in over. There

through its climate, whether it was around the world. We know whether its artificial intelligence and and the challenges that that poses wouldn't of yourself any of this stuff, and so we we I see that there is no no way forward other than to his to try to tackle. This undone and I guess the m that the framework that I've come up with an I'm excited by is that just is not These things have gone viral online in the last decade, especially fear resentment discussed anger there. It is also possible for real the good things to go viral. There is no reason why they shouldn't and with a bit of a notch, in a bit of We think an n and an effort by people of goodwill. I think there just might be a chance to turn the tide. At least that's the ambition, and if we, if we don't do this, I don't know what else we do, because the the future is just going to be so ugly.

why I thought to save a discussion of de I to the end, but this is we ve touched on it on the fly. I think we may be able to take a brief deterrent and talk about it, but it's not if it is a bit of a sidebar discussion with respect to day the other topics that relate directly to generosity and and philanthropy wealth cetera it. I've always viewed you before came to know you at all, as a kind of prisoner of sorts of ted. With respect to the I and perhaps you had a bit of stock- comes in from too I don't know, but I just seem like is actually that the first mama notice was after I gave my first head talk. We were. I took a pretty hard line against traditional islam, in particular that the compulsory availing of women and you came up on stage afterwards and trying to perform a bit of an intervention and

people can wash out on youtube turban and draw their own conclusions, and you- and I have since talk to a fair amount about islam and and my approach to criticise in it and, as was my approach to criticising listen in general and with hash that out, pakistan and in private I wouldn't have to we out here unless you either, you feel free his anything. You want and edify man in front of an audience here, but It's been useful to talk to you about all that, but what I wanted, about his eight, a reasonable, that had somewhat the same character, but what was notable in that it revealed how much has changed in the intervening years, so when it? Why, when we first met, want to give at first, I talk. I think that was two thousand ten and so now you know a decade plus hands. You have an event which produces a much more controversy me and yet the target of the blow. I was too my eye far more and

dine that I was given that first ted talk. In fact, it made me think that there's no way I could have given that TED talk now or at least last year and I'm sorry, Neil SAM? I'm talking about the case of common hughes, what happen there. What was your perception of what happened there? I I wasn't actually at that conference. I wasn't in. I wasn't there for thee, the immediate term immediate dominoes fall. I just heard about it after the fact that what was your experience of that since two thousand and eight Don't I talk, I actually really liked your ted talk. What I was there. I was the person who came up on stage. That has nothing to do. I think with dea. This was a person who had lived for years as a growing up in afghanistan and Iraq stone with a lot of muslims, and I do dislike huge aspects of of actually lots of religions and I think living for.

you know Paradise rather than that. The cardboard is incredibly incredibly dangerous. I think the whole inshallah You know, if it is, is it can be a very disempowering way to live where people give up trying, because they just about it in a god, will do whatever you do does not so I dont like, but what I what I do like is there are some genuinely there. Then I just got to know many super spirits all muslims and on many miss muslim women who actually he liked aspects of the conservatism of of muslim culture and and preferred it to the server. You know the the excesses of the west. If you like the excessive public sexuality of of the west, so is there was the kind of ex missionary kid if you like, drumming and speaking in and and challenging, but but the core of what you said that incredible salmon that the notion of building a morality from

from the ground up based on science, based on what we know about human nature. I'm not, I think, nuts. I actually believe that, because it's that's, what opens the door to more progress, which I think is the real thing. I don't think cultural relativism is a disastrous philosophy, and so we put we had more and in line than than you thought. But how is probably aware have you know some? Must in the audience here just wanted to look out for them, so common use the narrative online in some depending on whether you look on the left or on the right one. One narrative is that we in you know, invited a controversial man ted to give a talk about Tom. He made the As for color blindness on the left, this is seen as a super controversial infected and also deeply upsetting to some people, because on the left, the view is that colorblind policies over

A case have been proven not to work in a restore here with a lot of racial injustice, and that you cannot make enough progress without proactively making decisions based on race in some cases does does a very good ted talk. I think, by melody hobson arguing that, before this become a bold, not not colorblind, and dumb and she- and I should persuade me to be more consistent in how we hide it's not about tokenistic, hiring, it's about just making extra effort to find great people in and that with a more diverse and base, You actually get a lot more down and is thus healthier or around some site. I get that argument from the left. They also get why you know what happened when common gave? His talk is that term some people were heard it as you no longer care about me identity and and so some people, because you were really upset by it- is true to say that meant that we had

some people internally worldwide troubled at the notion of rock pushing it out on line, and I wondered whether We showed whether it was an idea worth spreading and they felt that some the issues said really needed further debate. Given how sensitive are so common kindly agreed to do a debate, and he did, I thought he did very well in it and that was posted, and that was fine, and then we posted his talk and tom all well and good. So far, the talk was not included in one of our super popular podcast for a while, I think the team were uncomfortable with it, for whatever reason I shouldn't wasn't really aware of this, but it meant that the view count on commons talk was low compared with other talks, and- and someone pointed this out to him, and so he got he got, upset and posted this piece saying: why is ted afraid of colour, blindness, okay and so said the main pushback we got them was from people right of center. Who who were outraged that this this brilliant person in common is a brilliant person was was being

suppressed by the woke. You know, ted team and m in I was told you know what, if you, if you believe in common and you you're, you want to champion him fire, your your awoke staff and so forth and said there was you know as as is In the current moment, you had incredibly different narratives on left and on right. I think on the right. The narrative, as you know, this proves that ted is is, is is woken and you know is suppressing very smart centrist ideas with ato clearly espoused by a vague, a person, but an alternative framework. Framing of it is ted fought to bring to the stage Someone who actually three four years ago, five years ago in the midst of the political divisions, was that we would never have invited to the stage we brought him on. A lot of people in the in the trinity noticed were excited that we are opening the ten wider than has been typical.

Recent years and the last time I checked in all his that talk has now has a hundred thousand views has been on the pope cost in out they d, so I bought my informing of its aim is, that is that ted is on a. I think, it's true that in the political and the height of the sort of political division, when we did stuff that was political must have it from the progressive cited the equation, and in it we had talks with some of that language that I refer to the ends up being very irritating to people. On the other side, we are fighting to address, that first or just on the language, it is pointless. Having a talk about social justice, if the people you want to persuade hunt, aren't gonna hear it because the cost of the land wage, and so we have to get the language said right, but more generally tat is non partisan and I I I feel that I feel strongly that there are people in the center of what do we need to listen two more and bring to tat nothing when peoples

the line up for twenty four- that we realise that we are absolutely committed to a broader open, ten were afraid of of controversy. dumb, as well as ideas were spreading. Where ideas with debating you often dont know whether ideas were spreading in the current environment. You have to really hammer it. Well so that that's where I'm at right now, I'm I'm I'm pry. I've been a fan of common for for a long time. You know I I get why some people were upset by this talk. I think he is a is a is a a brilliant thinker on issues outside re, When I've heard him, I've always been loud and I'm very glad he came to a head and dumb, and I think I think ultimately, the story is ted after a lot of internal debate offers its platform to a voice who never would been offered it a few years ago was interesting answer, my the action of that. It is an anomaly

surprise you and they may sound like a mirror confession. My own by us here. But when I look at you a woman who he is and what he is said over the years and in written and damn that you say he is he's. Quite brilliant is his quite inspiring he's. He was prodigy, that many of us were very happy to discover I dunno how many years ago it was, but as you as an undergraduate at columbia, he was writing really useful and beautiful essays that are just. They were like arrows, shot directly to the heart of our various social problems at at that time, and yet quite on characters, tickly. If someone his age, he did not override at all, and I was really it is quite beautiful and yet, of course for me to spell out his Eloquence at length is considered him. Grow aggression given the color of his skin, among many people over there at ted, here. Your description of this was to hear the description of largely

psychology and for you to say that common and have been invited a few short years ago because of how content if it would have been then and bend and his his invitation, and this time round didn't escape controversy, as you just described, and when you look at what has talk was his talk was just, as I said earlier truly anodyne, it was just this reboot of martin Luther king Jr is dream that we get past the superficial characteristic said that seem to divide us based on this insane action would raise and get to caring about people on the basis of of their actual contributions to society in the content of their character, etc, etc. That was never controversial until suddenly became controversial. The only issue was that we I ve learned or in the intervening years that it simply doesn't work. You know color blindness,

while it might sound, ethically wonderful, it's quixotic and its ineffective, and we need to make more muscular efforts to promote people, even ass, their point of competence right, even you know, even just the kind of affirmative action that many will derive. Now you bill I'll, it less say we want to make an argument for that. The thing that it was opened, tsar about the response common receive from get out on how many people at TED was that his utterly straightforward and on emotional and again, traditional civil rights. Talk was received as an attack as an insult as just pure opprobrium heaped on A vulnerable constituency right and these will perceive themselves to be under threat in the face of the least threat name guy in the least threatening message,

the commission set up some sites. I'm I get I get. I get that response from you and I get like a lot of people say that it does seem. A diet does seem obvious doubts at the conference that was, there was a standing ovation for the top from some people. Some people were really delighted in tennessee as a lot of different things, and some people were super delighted at the talk. I think, the peace that you may have missed and that some of the people who think oh, this is just obvious. I think you may have missed some- how just how deep and complex this debate has has become. There are people who have spent their whole lives. You know fighting to address issues of of racial injustice and they have come to believe that straightforward color blindness is, it has not worked. It has not worked

I dont think that the answer to that is just so tokenism of of, let's not necessarily affirmative action. It may well that there are many reasons why people of color may not be a opposition to let's say, apply for a job in the same numbers and in the same way as others, egg color bold see, might well be just to let that much harder to mind the brilliant people they they may well be out there and some with respect to yourself to his colorblind I'm. I will bet and the thing that there are times when you look at europe. Coastline up and say I can't just having a lineup of of white guys in our climate. If you feel that I bet I feel no actually actually know, and that's I believe he s been adequately or not. I get limit, be completely transparent. You it's been point out to me that I dont have

if people of color I don't have enough. Women are a cetera, et cetera, and so I've heard that criticism. But the truth is, I simply reach out for the next topic of interest or the next person who is caught attention and obvious, I can't say that I'm colorblind, because I may take the case of common, but when I hope for in our world and in my own way I've been and for common is to get to a place where No one cares that he's black. He doesn't if you care about it. I don't care about it. Yeah, of course, given our current situation, given the topic of this conversation is highly relevant, that he's black for a whole host of reasons first of all had a white guy. Given that same talk had I had the temerity to come back and gave a talk on color blindness, you would have received more,

more controversy and I would have received much less defence than commented yet clearly but based on the color of are skins, and that makes no sense because the argument stands or falls on its merits, but I just think it is unfortunate and it will soon become a travesty. If a man of commons intelligence has to spend all of his time most of his time even much of his time. Talking raise simply because he is black, he's here, so much more to contribute on so many other topics it's a massive opportunity cost and and when I, when I'm with common, I very quickly forget that he's black because it doesn't matter to me. It only matters to me when suddenly we're talking about this issue to turn to him and said: listen, you have a super power based on how you look, you should be doing something. That I'm not doing over here and as

tal irrational conversation to have with him. But I do a view as an opportunity cost and have you to something that we have two outgrow. I've just think is exactly that: touristic here, and I would be interested to know if you actually don't share this vision hope it some day. Skin color is like hair, color or eye color right wing We get a place where no one would even think to ask how many blonde, got into harvard last year. right now and how many green eyed people are the hardy ology and does it perfectly match their reference taken in the rest of society. Who cares right? We have to get to the who cares moment less. What success will look like, and the people who reacted so badly to common talk are people who that not only don't think we can get their fast enough by pretending to be colorblind. And they don't even want to get their apparently they want.

when shrine these differences among people as indelible as true for all time and as important for all time, and I think that's the only people who want to do that in our society are white, supremacist they are the same logic and its toxic, so some it may be true that some people want that permanently. But I dont think that is the general picture. I think this is actually where we can find common ground at when none. I did a pug constant view with melody hobson who had made the argument against colorblind asleep. She asked the strike question. I said in the long term, do you dream of a world where race as an issue goes away and that we just relate to each other as individuals and you know there was a long pause and it she said, that's incredibly hard to articulate for just because I see so many issues in the immediate term of why that that approaches and working, but

long term. At least what I heard to say is that that is the dream, and I I think I think most of the people at TED who are upset by the talk- and I include a couple of close friends of mine woods- would absolutely say that long long term, you we want colorblind society. That is the dream, but and that, in their view the way to accelerate. That is to look specifically at some of the issues around raise an and try to tackle them directly celebrate to meet. to me this is a really important debate and I am very glad we had it at ted and I think I think the weight you know, I think, common was embraced by many many many people at ted and as a whole. I you should know

watch. Now that we are, we are committed to having an open stance too important, what what are often controversial issues and to not be owned by one tribe and- and I think the tribalism is the biggest problem- some. It's the fact that few people but so few people are willing to explore and live in the very uncomfortable space between the the tribes. I I think that actually most people in america in europe in the world are not at the extreme ends of the of of of the spectrum. Here I think most people actually would if they could find a way like to embrace a more centrist position. The trouble is that, if you put your head above the parapet, you get it blown off by both sides and that that is is different. It's actually. I speak about this a bit in the book, one of the forms of generosity that I think

is most important for the era that wherein is bridging it's the ability to unwillingness to listen to people from the other tribe with respect and and two to try to understand them and to be willing to try to find language that that can find common ground that we, who freed up five people who are willing to do that. It was screwed, and so I I think it's actually one of the most important forms of generosity that there is is that it tells the story in the book of of this african american daryl Davis. Who was puzzled? Why people hated him because of his skin color? You know and invite invited the local leader of the ku klux, and to to to a meeting, ended up forming a relationship with them. He went to kick a k, rallies and they built up. They built. They somehow built a friendship of the sky event. She left the and and and his his hip.

story, you know, became widely reported in the spied many others of people like him. I think, are rare, modern heroes that we It's so so many more often it's just a very hot space to be in I'm doing a terrible job of trying to be in that space, but I'm absolutely determined to try and be in that space for ted we're gonna we're gonna, get it wrong a lot of the time we're going to be. I laughed at the pi people actually on both sides, but that's that's! Okay, because we we we have to be their ideas, are supposed to be able to leap from one tribe to another. That's the whole reason they're powerful, and if we, if we give up that connectivity were giving up but one of humanity's most important superpowers yeah? Why? I applaud your efforts to continue that conversation, and I encourage you to keep at it despite the pan. It may cause you because it says that this is a

an enormous problem which is making so many other political impasse is in our society. It impossible to navigate, navigate address it. It's it touches everything as we just saw it is the immediate response to the war in the middle east and the repute or disrepute with which are most important. academic institutions, are, are held and mistress. It say I'm touching everything in it. you enough to my eye, many people just very confused about the ethics and politics here, and there are some very low hanging fruit in terms of right answers that, we can get our hands around and I haven't think common is in possession of at least one there, but we're not all right here in, and I want to ban this conversation back to them. then I know is a closer to europe. Your hard at the moment, which is the topic of your book general, city had been had. How do you think about generosity, this point and how

as the internet changed your thinking, you're, so that it does to pieces re that came together for this one is just the science of generosity I think is actually really really interesting. My background was religious and dumb, as one thing that kept me in the church for a long time was the belief that there was no basis for generosity or kindness or goodness of altruism outside a belief in god. I thought that, outside that what you had was an evolved animal, you know that was evolved to survive and that there was no basis for conscience or for full being kind to others and end it was. It was the most thrilling discovery to realise that term. Actually, it was possible for selfish genes to evolve unselfish people to build unselfish people and that you could that unselfishness was actually

it's brilliant way of surviving if it could spread across a species and m and dinner. There's scientific arguments about whether that was a group selection, thing or individuals that have had quite how that worked. But the fact is that humans, along with several other species, have developed this as a kind of superpower and and it's that that has enabled basically everything that we've done by being the cooperating species that that that learned to, for example, you know, share

anti of hunting or whatever back in the day and learned mechanisms for for trust and belief in each other. It's it's that that I think, is at the heart of everything that we have built it's at the heart of civilization, and so that's that's one piece, that's cool! A second piece that it is is again in a biological is new evidence around just how wide we are to respond to generosity, and I got this ringside view of a crazy experiment called it. Mr experiment, where two hundred people on the internet were given ten thousand dollars out of the blue, told no strings attached. You just have to tell us what you spend it on and they ended up spending, two thirds of that

honey. Generously like this is not you know what what sort of the rational agent theory of economics would would predict. I think to be clear: this is two hundred people getting ten thousand dollars each. So each a minute to minute to minute out yup, that's right and I'm I had the chance to speak with them after this experiment was done, so the the the experiments done in partnership with Elizabeth done at the university of british columbia and they published on it. You know it's it's. The biggest experiment of of this kind of in a past experience been done yet, where we're like psychology, students were given twenty bucks and yeah they they. They tend to be generous with that, but Tom, but the fact that this held across seven countries and different income, I wasn't set forth writ really surprising and kind of wonderful it did. It shows that there is this mechanism in that, whereby ripple effects can happen from generosity is a third biological peace. That term is due.

it did the feeling we get when we see other people being generous as a sort of feeling of uplift that also increases levels of generosity, so put those things together with the fact that we're in this connected age now- and it's actually much easier to give away things that are hugely valuable to people at unlimited scale. So those ingredients in principle create create a sort of playbook whereby acts of generosity could absolutely send ripples across the world in a in a great way, you've discovered this by the way in your own work here on this podcast, I used to write books and sell them and so forth, and you you took a risk at some point and put all your time and effort into you know giving I mean people can support your podcast, but you will also give it away and what you discovered was that your impact on the world increased by at least an order of magnitude. I think,

and I I I think you know okay, so that's is that self promotion, or is that generosity well as both, and I I think both both are there, and I think your willingness to spend all this time you know offering. reason at an insight to so many people. I view that is a fantastic gift to the world that was not possible it's a couple of decades ago, and it's amazing, where in the world, what that what that can happen? Where, from your your well your mind? We can get all this, though this stuff, and I can- I can listen to every week whatever. I think. That's that's incredible. There are so many examples of this under the radar that I think it's worth putting a label on it and and trying to imagine how we tweak it and not at all.

And so the let the label I put on is infectious generosity, and I think I think, there's a pathway where it can allow us to reclaim the internet to being a force for good in the world and giving us at least a shot at a more hopeful future. We could talk about it the various digital business models here end and how they interact with with this concept of generosity, is it in? I have had em a fairly unique experience here and downtime happen again to that? If its of interests, but to your first point about the common This understanding of our biological selfishness. Rightly that the phrase the selfish gene, which know it almost was almost an afterthought for you. When I'm a doctor, it could have named it the immortal, gene or the eternal jane I forget, which he, I think the immortal jane was he wished? He named it by damn. It

mean that were not capable of altruism, obviously or selflessness, even and and and self sacrifice, and there there's aid- an evolutionary rationale for why we would be from the genes. I view I mean, as you know, kin, selection and and other properties of biology there, but there's on the psychological side. There's just this fact, which you point to that generosity and and even classic selflessness just feels good rise, which is it that caring about others is a very good strategy for caring about yourself right into this, opposition between selfishness in and selflessness is fairly spurious, and certainly, as you climb, the hierarchy of needs towards something like self actual alsatian. Your actual alsatian entails this capacity. To genuinely care about other people and it genuinely love them and feel rewarded by

by your moral concern for them, and so that there is just this thing that we might call your wise selfishness, which contains all the pro social and even self, sacrificing attitudes and norms that will we would want it to and which are traditionally celebrated and and and and championed under the bed of one or another religion and may be buddhism, as is very articulate on this, but ass his christianity, and yet this none logically mysterious, psychologically mysterious in and yet many people have drawn the opposite lesson that not only is selflessness and altruism and and self sacrifice, and not out not only of those false norms, their basically illusions right there there If you prick any one of those balloons, what you find

and in the middle of it is just pretension. You know what I said that the top just a people, our virtues, signalling that already there in other just This is another way of being self regarding and abuse touch us a little bit in your book? Will you deal with the content in a notion of of the purity of one's motives with respect to generosity anna than navy, the necessity that they not mixed with any desire on one's own part to feel better to be better to burnish ones. Reputation. How do you think about the mixture of motives that can inspire give in and notion stood at what I think you are gonna agrees that this false ideal of a moral purity comes from can't. and elsewhere is also good that the christian notion here, where you know shouldn't be calling attention,

to your acts of piety or your act of generosity. That is therefore the best form of giving, and I think many people, and at least in in our society, believe it. it's not almost by definition, anonymous if you're giving anonymously. Well, then we know it's pure, but giving in a way that calls attention to the giving well, then there has to be met sure your motive, but in my view you actually can do much more good when you are candid about how important philanthropy is to you and how rewarding it is to you and and how consequential it in the world, and so where did you come here? Take on all that I think there's a simple mental shift that we all need to make, which is instead of looking for the bad in each other's motors, to look for the good.

hmm it as a as a philosophy student. I literally would lie on the floor of my room for hours at a time trying to figure this one out, because the notion of like I I wanted to be a good person, but to be good without external motivation to be purely good. I couldn't see how that happened like even if You were just trying to obey the call of conscience. Wasn't it true that a ban, the call of conscience in a sense felt good, and so wasn't yet therefore, in a way selfish inside I I think the truth. The truth is that that generosity has always been. People have always done it for real, and does there's always been a little bit of selfishness in in the mix. Now the amount of selfishness may may very indifferent people, but Is it really like if someone does something knowing secretly that it is in there

long term self interested. If they do this, they can feel deeply happy at the end of the day or that it may actually enhance their reputation in the world. Is that a bad thing? No, it's not. We should we should embrace it, and so I I think that that the that one of one of the core things I argue for here is that we have to let go of this idea of perfect generosity, it never was perfect and in in the modern era there actually more reasons than ever to look at the effect suggests once generosity is actually an amazing strategy for any person. Any organ position in the company you give away stuff and he he you know incredible things can happen. As a result. It can boost your reputation. I I think, rather than criticizing people for that, we should celebrate it because we want more of that. We don't want less of that. We want more of that, and so the simple shift of saying stop in just stop this ridiculous.

Cynicism about summons motives or trying to double gas in. It is somewhat gives away money where they were. They really doing this actually to enhance their reputation. That's not a bad thing! You know it's good, it's it's good that they gave way the money for a good cause, celebrated anne and give the people permission to do it doing that, just just that simple shift would unlock. So much extra kindness because I think a lot of people a fearful of doing or sent me fearful of saying anything for precisely The reason that they're gonna get shot had is crazy, is really crazy, but we ve got to get past that and look at the world more more realistically and and then just connection to that. Some of you said you said it was if a kind of obvious, in a way that that term you know giving you know, can be good. Few can make you happy and so forth, actually think for a lot of people. It's actually not that obvious. I think

the the psychology around this is really quite confusing to me and quite weird, because it's true that there are therapy indelible profound links between generosity and happiness, but I think they're often hidden We in the moment when we're thinking about being generous. What works also aware of, is the fear of loss in a lesson version is. It is a really powerful thing and it's it's it's entirely possible for someone to go through a month without really thinking about opportunities. To be kind, because you know life is hard and that you're focused on our work are we focused on you know how how to get the you know the next paycheck in or what what whatever it is and those those feelings are much more pressing shall we say, and so part of I think, part of part of the playbook yet part of the life hack, if you like, is to remind ourselves,

was the actually, if you take a gamble on being generous, even you met, she may not fill it with any certainty in the moment, but you can be pretty sure that afterwards you'll get pay back it will it will. There will be a feeling of fulfilment and even if, even if, there's no pay back, if you like from the people, you gave things to which they may be there as well. There will be pay back unjust, that sort a feeling of. Ah, I can be there person. Everyone at some level wants to be that that better self I think year was, I think we perhaps should linger on this point of from the difference between intentions and results. I guess there's there's a a third factor here, which we've we haven't named. What we? What we've already mentioned, which is just the way we feel as a result of giving its voting intentions and reward from giving and results, are all separable and nay. They all

matter, but they matter differently, and I think it's it's important optimize for all of them and just to be aware of the trade offs here, and this is what one one or two things, I I the main thing that I found so valuable, valuable, ineffective, altruism, I haven't and we'll talk about p m bad odor that surrounds this phrase now as a result of sand, bagman freed but dumb I've never formally consider myself ineffective, effective altruistic, because this is always seem. a little to on line and a little to call tat a little too shot through with Asperger or something, but I've talked to the principal founders wedding will macaskill and and toby, organ and peter singer as well and admire those guys mentally and the real costs. Provisions made to my own life as it is, is to differentiate these factors so that I can recognize

Is that the reward? I get from giving is separable from the results and there are certain certain things I can give to wear the results in the world are as good as it could possibly be, but it's just not that sexy a cause at it. I don't find it that in spain or rewarding frankly, is just not it's not a thing that really tugs at my heart strings and so what I have to do is just optimized for results. Insofar as that, I can do that, through people advise in man and doing research and then consider the good feels that and the search for good feels to be an additional project. That is, it's almost like a a guilty pleasures. I decided amid a u, I took the there ten percent pledged into give your ten percent of all pre tax dollars to the most effective charities, and so I do that but then I give more than that, and I consider that the those gifts you know to the one person

with a gofundme who has some truly tragic story. You know that wouldn't survive and e analysis, but as something I really want to do and in the end the beautiful thing is that it has made it even more rewarding to do those things. I can truly it's almost like a noble form of greed that they get satisfied by helping he boy in those specific ways that that fall outside of the the optimized salts analysis that come from an EU perspective, and then and then finally intentions matter. Simply apart from that, the women they color our minds moment to moment and and really dictate HU. We are in relation to other people, they matter just because you know, if someone's given out to a cause, simply to burn it

the reputation, that's all they care about, and they don't really care about alleviating human suffering or doing any other good in the world. Will then, if that's what they care about, you can predict in the future that they are going to go. You know they can be blown around by whatever incentives aimed at furnishing the rep. Station right and they're, not they're, not gonna, be reliable partners in the in the project of reducing who suffering, because that's what they care about. So that's that's. Why intention matters, but I just think we can keep all of those specific dials, in view and two in them, as correctly as we can so as to have both the best possible personal experience and also do the most good in the world. So lot I agree with you on the intention side, if, if you, if you knew for certain sure that the only reason someone is doing something that looks generous, was to banish the reputation, then that that doesn't really counters as generosity,

we actually never know that. But if we don't go energies good if rooms, If your path is going to give you one hundred million dollars to build a hospital, it's still a still get a task at a hospital, but I wouldn't admit that you have to describe that as as generosity, but I think the truth is that in almost every circumstance we don't know. I think people's intentions are almost always mixed. I think most people that may focus is the giving way, the money in the hope that it will do something, and you know that that that they're happy that its, the other reputation may may benefit as well, but it's not it's may not be the main driver. The point is from the outside, you dont know. That's what too, we have to take the cynical view. I think it's really important is to look for. The good in the intention rather than than than the ban. But in terms of you know what you were saying about, that. Does this really important dont, something between our generous

instincts and reasoned response to those instincts, I think the reason PA is ready, important, traditionally people often in what, when they give it is, it is on impulse. In a you, see the sun, actually in the world. You think I must in our text, in my my contribution or whatever and under that feels that feels good or we just you know. We feel great empathy, for someone close to us and they have a need and will support that problem in about this book against empathy, which was kind of trying to argue that too much of that is not in a dozen That is where we need to go, because there are so many resources in the world. It actually really is important that we spend them wisely, and so I think this is a really important dance that each of us has to do, which is to try to bring our

our reason to bear and to say. Ok, I care about this. I care about this. Stop don't write a check right away, just think for a minute. What is the most effective thing you can do and that new no such so did go to effective address him. If you just ask the question: do we want our altruism to be effective? Well, yes, I think we too, in over which we would like it to be smart, would like it to be raised based with you, know, we'd like the money to be spent wisely under and that's why I'm with you on in know, I I I've got huge respect for people like what will macaskill and the other founders of effect. One altruism, I think if you view it as a as a journey- and I think we would say this now about it- it's not

and any individual recommendation they make any point in time is provisional. What they're anchored in is the desire to figure out what is a wise way to give and when you put it that way, that is absolutely the right question to ask: what is the wise way, because it's it's not it's not obvious. There are so many there's orders of magnitude, difference between spending money, smartly and spending it stupidly endure, and I think in I I took a lot in the book about trying to find the leverage point you when you spend money, you're, you're you're. Looking for what is it that makes this a good value for money, you know: can you leverage technology? Can you leverage government policy? Can you leverage the internet you leverage education and a knowledge, and I think what, when you find something that really will you get wow? That organization is being smart about other spending, their money. It's it's very exciting to do it, and I agree with you that it doesn't have the immediate feels of

Oh, he has a family in need. You write them a check, they cry, you cry lovely, but there is. That is actually something satisfying deeply. I think about taking the time to have a plan entered to to know to think about what you can afford to spend to commit to spending it and to getting it to a point where you feel good about it. I think really makes makes you feel and mean I know now. I I had a foundation and for years I was, I can't figure out what to spend the money on that meant. That got me excited coming to had I son. If our while, ok, I get this leveraging the power of ideas. I love that. I love that and it didn't give me the keys.

If he has a family crying and I'm I can do something about it kind of feels, but it gave me a different kind of satisfaction to have found what was for me the right way of of spending the foundation's money. So I thus the dance, I think is a start with start with the the biological instinct and the set of that, the realization that, for you to feel good about yourself, you know generosity should be part of who you are, but then take the time to think it through and and figure it out. What is the wise way to go cause cause that that that such different answers to that. Well, let's talk about business models because I have a fairly unique one at which you alluded in its, if might be slightly different than you imagine, and and also you at TED have a fairly unique one and there are actually there some similarities between the two and I would love to get you take on this score. Finally, on the park ass, I had the honour of the empire pbs patron star

I'll business, where it was a nose free for everyone to listen to people expect podcast to be free, and I didn't you for writing. reasons I I didn't wanna take adds. So I just said you do you. If you enjoy is happening over here, you can support it and here's how and I think I was- I was very successful in doing that, and it was. It was a real business and and it was quite stable- and I had about probably two years. Running it- that way where it was just it mainly. The income was proof we reliable and maybe it moved around by two or three- percent on any given month, but it just would seem completely. I had found worthwhile had found the floor and the ceiling- and it was just here, this coming along nothing seemed broken about it except two things one I released meditation app alongside this part cast and that was structured, different That was an app in the app store and it was pale

damn. It was you you could use it for free for some time, but then you, then you had to subscribe and if you couldn't afford you could just send an email and we will give it for free, and I still the case- and it is still the case on this podcast, but damn that I had these. Who experiments in business running side by side, one had a pay wall and one was sort of opt out and one was opt in right, an end, and it was really just sooner mp3 files on both platforms, and I noticed that bike. harrison with the app the podcast business was broken, and I didn't do anything about it until I stumbled upon in relation to read it, which truly hold me over, and I give my fine is interesting because, as this reveal to me that as a business model, there's something wrong with the spirit of generosity in the spirit of philanthropy, because some a spectator upon this is the threat was something around you know would do you support sam's, podcast and

and if so, why are we not in some one said? Well, I would support the five gas if I knew what he was going to do with the money and another and say why I would support the pie cast if I knew how much it costs to run upon cast another person's area, and I would support the podcast if I knew how much I thought a purse, one should earn from a podcast right, and I looked at those three statements. And my head practically fell off my shoulders because I realized glance there were some. Deeply wrong here, because these are the kinds of considerations it would never have occurred to a person when they were thinking that buying my next book. Friends, It's me, there's literally no person on earth who's ever thought the thought. Well, I will by his next book. If I knew how much I thought an author should make from writing books- or I would by his next book, if I knew what he was gonna do with money remedies

does not the kinds of thoughts, people they either one read the book or you don't and you buy it or not, and so I decided to make the podcast emulate the app in that I made the pay wall. compulsory in that in in that is now pay wall than you, if you're, not behind the pay, while you're only hearing the first part of every podcast, but if you can't afford it. you just have to send an email and we give it to you for free right, an end right. I staff literally full time something like thirty thirty, five people in their customer service and ninety five percent of what they do is just minister to free accounts, and there were days, is during covert where a thousand people would send that email a day right and many hundreds, that email and on any given day for the app or the podcast or both

it's fine, so I am very committed to money. Never been the reason why someone can't get access to what I'm doing, because he it's it's important, that that not be the reason and it being a digital product. You know allows for that, but the crucial thing to realize here, is that when I changed the pay wall on the podcast First of all, when I announced that I was going to do this, many people predicted that it was going to be a disaster, that I know that my audience would shrink to nothing and that no one would pay, because everyone expects podcast to be free, unlike apps, and everyone expects, my guess would be free, and most of them are most of them are ad supported and what happened was If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe sam harris dot org. Once you do you access to all full length episodes of the making sense podcast. The podcast is available to everyone through a scholarship programme, sophie can't afford a subscription. Please request a free account on the website that making sense pocket

ass, his ad free and relies entirely unless nor support- and you could subscribe now at sam harris dot, org the.