Looking to make your search bar cast. is SAM Harris just a note to say that if your hearing this year currently honour subscriber feet. we here in the first part of this conversation in order to access full episodes of making sense, podcast you'll need to subscribe sand harris downward there you'll find or private rss feed to add to your favorite pot catcher, along with others, subscriber only content, we don't run ads on the past and therefore its may possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy, we're doing here. Please consider becoming one well, I just did Megan kelly's podcast

yesterday and I like megan, she has always treated me extremely fairly, even though she is a very different audience that would incentivize her to treat me unfairly. That strikes me as a bit of a high wire act, so I was happy to talk to her and you can see the results over her channel and it can make an ass me about the recent incident with the dalai lama, which I suppose I should comment on here- you can hear what I said to her but I'll. Just more or less repeat that here. I hadn't really thought to react to this, but it's understandable that people would be curious to know what I think my Three, obviously with buddhism and with five Joanna buddhism, goes way back I've met the dalai lama on a number of occasions and briefly functioned as a

bodyguard for him for about a month when he toured france So I travelled with him to learn about a dozen cities are more over the course of a month and got to see how he functioned with men from groups of people and was never less than thoroughly impressed by him as a person. This was I think, over thirty years ago. At this point, but found him to be as advertised just an extraordinarily present, compassionate and wise man I can't say he was really a teacher of mine. I never studied with him. In any sense, I stayed with several lamas who he considered. Teachers to cancer of CHE neutral can repay, and perhaps others were unaware of the connection. So what

say about this recent incident. If you haven't heard there's a video, there is now widely been circulated in common upon of the dalai lama, teaching in front of an audit and being asked by a young indian boy if he could help him. And once that hug takes place the dalai lama ass for a kiss on the cheek and then kiss on the mouth and then he sticks his tongue out and asked the boy to suck his tongue, which the boy doesn't do, and this has been widely saved as not only bewildering, but totally inappropriate. Certainly understand that reaction with an emphasis think on the bewildering part, certainly not appropriate, but, as I told megan, I find it hard to believe that the dalai lama was true

gratify sexual urge, with a child in front of hundreds of people. So in my view the behaviour would have even been more concerning had it occurred in private, but still it was bizarre. His true the tibetans sometimes greet one another by sticking out their tongues and I suppose there's something it could make sense of this as a joke, but from the video really did seem that the dalai lama gave this boy ample opportunity to actually suck his tongue, which makes it hard to interpret as a joke. Anyway, I'm inclined to ascribe this to some form of brain damage, on the dalai lama's part. He isn't. Eighty seven year old man, whether what's going on in his brain, has simply made him well censored in front of an audience to some window onto how he's behaved privately with kids. I don't know-

but in any case I'm not inclined to say anything to defend his behaviour, except to say that if he does have some relevant form of brain damage. It would explain it otherwise. I have absolutely no idea what was going on there and it is quite unfortunate because the man had an absolutely stellar reputation. I guess remains to be seen whether this will more his legacy. only it doesn't take much more than a moment to change everyone's view of who you are as a person and kneel to say, that's worth, keeping in mind how k and now for two days passed today, Speaking with Matt, thornton Matt has been teaching martial arts for more than thirty years and he holds a fifth degree. Black in brazilian georgia, too. His organization straight blast, Jim, has more Seventy locations worldwide and has produced

champion emanates fighters, as well as world class, self defence and law enforcement instructors, and he lives with his wife. and five children in portland, oregon and has long been one of my go to authorities on all things were, two martial arts in self defence, as many of you know, if touch this topic a few times in the past, I spoke in a given to Becker and jack, a willing and scott rates for many topics related to self defence, and understanding violence, and now I finally done it with that, and we talk about his new book title. The gift of violence practical knowledge for surviving and thriving in a dangerous world. We discuss his background and martial arts,

the reasons a person may want to train in combat sports. Do you have c in the evolution of mixed martial arts, the fundamental principles of effective self defense, the street verses sport fallacy grappling versus striking the persistence of fake actual bruce lee legacy. Male violence and emotional maturity, the mail or of humiliation, violence against women validity of our instincts when judging danger, the behaviour of predators where and avoiding violence and other topics anyway, pleasure to finally get mad on the podcast. I hope you find our conversation useful and I bring you Matt thornton, the. I am here with math thornton Matt. Thanks are joining the extra help me so

so. You have long been my guru honour all things related to martial arts and violence, presuming jujitsu in project but really that you and I have discussed and everything related to self defence. I remember urging you to write a book on this topic and you have now done that when it serve. Congratulations is a wonderful book. The book is the gift of violence, practical knowledge, surviving and thriving in a dangerous world, and its really excellent. So I betrayed congratulations, I know, take you a long time to produce and it was worth the effort and thank you very much yeah. It took me about ten years, but I did get it done eventually. So, let's just to go through this systematically could violence is a topic that I have touched a few times the pike ass. I have spoken to jack a willing, and it now resale who who has own own podcast, whom and people with be familiar with scott reads,

I spoke about firearms. In particular, I spoke to hinder gracie bout turn d, J J and I could have a private. A few other conversations but term I'd like to take it from the top here and give people in so far as is possible, a comprehensive view of the topic of self defence. Before we jump in to the conversation proper pepsi can summarize your background here and and you come to know anything about this topic light. Could he actually your background is in rain your book? I realized it started earlier than I recall that I'm sure you told me about your childhood before, but I think I forgot the deed, I'll be your your father was a police officer. My my father's retired police officer and maya, my mother was jobs witnessed so her for the way that that pretty all manner of conflict. I would imagine exactly okay, your your background.

Say Marshall artist and somebody who who understands interpersonal violence and then we'll hit the ground running. Well. Think, like a lot of people, You know I had some run ends with bullying and things like that. When I was little, I was only child for the first sixteen years, I've anyway and mom my dad the police officers, as I mentioned, my mom is very religious, so I had a kind of a car dixon, and what I was being told how how to into violent confrontations how to handle situations like this always being told different things at different times, which are found a bit confusing I eventually reached a point where I just started fighting back and then I became fascinated right around the same time with what works in fights and what doesn't work and fights, and that question of you know what martial arts are going to be effective. What tactics or things are actually effective against fully resisting opponent was always front centre, my mind and so on I went into martial arts. I wanted a marsh large

very specifically to trying to answer that question and I talk a little bit about it in the book, but I ordered with the boxing and a box for wound, and I became an instructor went the gold. You can know concepts which is a kind of cross training makes. Martial arts sort of system where they were taking different pieces from different martial arts came pretty disillusioned with all martial arts and including that, but also that was bruce liese. Yet awesome, bruces conscious and the idea was which was a quote: he'd actually take from outside tongue, but absorbers It's full reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own, so it's kind of utilitarian approach to martial arts, italy at least that's how it was advertised, and I was attracted to that aspect of it. But after getting

it'd become an instructor and spend some time with those people. For a couple of years I started to get a little disillusioned and I saw a bit of hypocrisy. I saw him saying one thing to each other or you know, amongst the coaches, backstage if you will and then something completely different to the audience, and it was right around that time that I had a fortunate runnin with resigned jujitsu told the story buncher times, but it's kind of funny. Fabio santos was appear in portland and he was building sailboats. and he wasn't teaching jujitsu. Nobody really knew what preside. Jujitsu was at the time and horror. What year was this? Ah, this would have been, very early nineties, so ninety one to somewhere, not before the usa, which was yet ninety three guess so a good year. I'd say before you c and horror in actually called up Fabio and set. I've got something big. This gonna be happy and I'm gonna need you as an instructor here, so you should get in shape and what are the big thing that he was going

happened. Was you see and since they ve been running that experiment of brazil for decades, they gotta knew what the results would be. An Fabio way of getting in shape was to put a ad and in the classified newspaper here often pay people fifty dollars if they could come and try and beat him up and so my body and I from the boxing Jim showed up predictable, resulted what would happen when he had. Let me try and hit him took me down, demonstrated jujitsu too, a few times, and then once he was cleared, he could tell clear to me that what he was doing was work, and they will really wasn t. I could do body he could see. I was hooked anna from that moment what I fell in love with you, just you and not too long. After that. I also got to meet hickson, which was a big eye, opener spores what the what the art was capable of Andrew hickson, graces of malaysia often acknowledged to be there. The greatest jujitsu athlete of all time- yeah, I don't think, there's any any doubt about that. I and other

people who ve been around in the world champions from that date, in the era they all have stories about hickson, and these are guys that aren't apt to you know, make up martial arts pathologies they're not going to talk about. You know getting tapped out if they weren't, actually tapped out and and hixon just An amazing has an amazingly level of skill, so I fell in love. With and I realize I needed to train it and the people that I was training with a third jake. Eighty school were interested. They still these ideas about how hard they would be to get taken down again. This was before the yo see how you don't want to be in a on the ground in a fight, so why would you train to be on the ground and in a fight and so forth? And so I actually opened up a very a small school for the sole purpose of having training partners. I had no intention of becoming an instructor and do the gym just took off from their fortunately, and this became you're straight blast- jim, yes, Kay.

Species stray blast. Jim was a tiny little school and salem, again that I shared with a judo black belt was a friend of mine. We brought hickson up once hickson. Give me my bluebell and told me at the time I said: listen, I'm I'm trying to train them every day. I have to teach what you show me, so I can get training partners. He gave me permission at that time to teach what I know in my schools. I always called it. You know brazilian jiu and that's all started men few years after that, Hickson- came very famous. Fighting in Japan became hard to reach hard to get hard to train with At around that time I met a mutual friend of ours. Chris hauter and chris became my coach from purple brown and black, and to this day so Chris and I have been training together about thirty years. nice nice and how many jimmy you have now, because you have created a multiple sb, your gym's right yeah,

yeah. I think one of the things I'm most proud of is when I went off to do it all my peers in the martial arts. At the time like peers in the g condo community were telling me this was never going to work very kind of the cynical take on martial arts in the sense that people don't really want to sweat. People don't want to get tat. Our people want to get hit. They want to click sticks. Together. We want to compare notes. They want to collect certificates, you're, never gonna, make any money or be able to have a jim, and I soon? That was true, but I need to train. I wanted to train swipe. I did willows play doing anyway, and of course, the altar not be wrong, and so I just happen to be the first school I think it is really the first emma may or resigned you're just a school in Oregon, and so people just started to to come to the german grew from their exponentially and then tor. the end of the nineties, I produced a video set called a likeness which was about how

to know what works martial arts, what doesn't work on and what the what the decided, what the determining factor is when you're, too in about a functional marsh. Lord verses of fantasy base, martial arts and those videos became very popular as well. They sold a lot and people from different parts of the country would contact me to tell me that they'd, you know they ve been thinking the same thing. I've been thinking that they didn't the sudden put words to their very appreciative of it and that's kind of how the organization started. So I had you know people in the uk Tens warm and john carbon our course is calmer. Gregory coach was one of my first black belts and they kind of came to me from hearing about me through to the alliance videos and that saudi organization kind of grew

Now we probably have about seventy some odd locations with new nor a dozen or so big schools. That'll have you know between five hundred thousand members and each one made in august? How I want to get into the details? It just how you think about martial arts, specifically in and violence generally, and I think we want to differentiate what you ve already referred to is as traditional and fantasy base martial arts from proper mixed martial arts that are functional, but damn before we get into the details. What's answer this basic question, which I think you occurs at least subconsciously to me: listen, there's, which is why I think about violence at all. They ve been the more civilised,

society, the more privileged one, is in that society. The less likely violence is a variable that that anyone realistically has to worry about and you know it is the measure of progress really in a society that a legitimate concern for violence diminishes. You more or less to the point of vanishing. Why think about violence? Yeah? That's a good question actually thought about that quite a bit. Everything you said is true, of course, as we as we become more, or civilised and, and your committee grow and we have law enforcement, and we have all of you- know the online men and all the modern things that do not have helped create,

better society than the violence curve drops, but still to this day, I don't think a lot of people realize, but there's about four times as many people letter killed and interpersonal violence every year as are killed by all the wars in others. There is always an exception here and there, but generally speaking it's about half million people a year are killed worldwide from violence and that's never going to completely go away, and so there's that aspect of it that is there and that I've. I do believe it's better for people to take personal responsibility for their own safety and well being, rather than completely farm it out to a third party which may or may not be there if you need them so there's an aspect which is very proud we'll aspect of it, but there's another piece to a tune. In that you know, violence is so intrinsic to our nature. Is human animals is part of who we are, and I dont think anything

good comes from repressing those in staying sword or thinking. You know where some things are somehow below us. I think really. What we want to do want to have a healthy relationship to the topic. healthy relationship to that topic, he's not gonna turn by once into a fetish and romanticize it on one extreme, but it's also not going to demonize or try and repress. Violence is something something evil and instead is just going to look at violence as what it is and try and have a healthy relationship to the topic. So if we ever do have to defend ourselves or engage in it, you know we'll be prepared, but also, I think it's just a a whole. If your way to live your life, I think there's so many people, probably some of your listeners today, they're listening to this that have tried something like brazilian jujitsu and very quickly kind of fallen in love with the

with the art and are not in love with the art, because they're thinking about hurting people they're in love with the art, because the pushing pulling struggling physical contact that you have with another human being is so visceral for us and I think in many ways necessary. And so I I don't think it's necessarily a healthy thing to separate ourselves from that part of our self and an one of the things that good combat, combat athletics, functional, martial arts, martial arts of sports essentially give people as they give, they helped put them back in touch with all that that whole aspect of who we are and so that we can start to have, I think your relationship to the topic and not have a phobic one year. One answer to this question that I've experienced personally is just that changes you to train in preparation for violence and to understand fires changes you in my

experience in really wholly good ways and means it gives you conference where confidence as possible. It gives you a wise circumspect. in where you might not have had it before risers, like it say, antidote to certain kinds of dangerous delusion said genuinely: do increase your risk of of income in violence and being on the on the wrong end of it, and so in this training, whether its in an effective martial art like presuming jiu jitsu, or with firearms, are major whatever side of this. Problem one engages it, sir, if only in some part of that potential force continuum for one cell It changes the way you are in the world in context that have nothing to do with self defence or personal risk. Em you just. You have an understanding

things that matters and changes just the way you feel with other people and in different circumstances, yeah one hundred percent. I think that dumb that's kind of universal finding that people have, and I think that you know that's one of the reasons people start to fall in love with combat sportsmen art like jujitsu, one of them things we see it as b g is. One of our goals is to make good people more dangerous to bad people, but one of the things I talk about in the book is one of the nice side benefits of making good people more dangerous to bad people, as it also makes better people and assist the humbling process. You are having to deal with failure over and over again failures, an essential part of this process of somebody. It's not gonna open themselves up to be vulnerable to that kind of failure. You, you literally can't get good at the art its necessary to have to tap and submit. You know that thousands of times and and also handle and and learn

how to deal with tapping in beating other people. You know thousands of times and the myriad of lessons. We get of interpersonal communication and things that are appropriate or not appropriate, being comfortable in uncomfortable situations. All of that really starts to come into play and, and there's nothing really, it's not a conversation. I would have as a coach at my gym there's nothing. I need to really do to facilitate that. For people other than create a healthy, safe mad where people can come in, they can be vulnerable there, no they're not going to get hurt and and that's enough and that and the process of doing the art. All these other things we're talking about come into play in a you know, there's nothing I'd,

I don't need to give a lecture about it. I don't need to talk to people by just happens organically. That way he or talk more about what makes brazilian jiu so interesting from the point of view of training for self defence, but before we do, let's distinguish what you call them. The fantasy based martial arts her this- and this is this overlaps impressively with what are often thought of his traditional martial arts and the functional com that sports approach to self defence or in a marshall yeah what we would now generally understood as mixed far too emma man. What you see in the EU have say. Perhaps we should start with what the? U s see did to the conversation about what works, and what does it? Because in in my memory before the you have see happened

it was a pretty hypothetical and everyone was just imagining that the art they were training and was was super effective and would sort of like asking, What would win in a fight of a lion or a tiger right? Well, until you have something like the roman colosseum, where you throw those two animals together, it's all speculation and the u of c, became a kind of science experiment where all these different martial arts were hurled at one another, and we could see I worked in which contacts and then and then there was a kind of any iterative. evolution. There were. There was a kind of cross training and where everyone started grabbing the skills that worked whatever their provenance, and we got something like a generic form of of mixed martial arts, where it was understood what skills were were fundamental and and and and foundational at each each range perhaps you can just describe what happened there. Sure so now makes martial arts

is its own sport and the young fighters that we have the train in ireland or oregon and wherever they come into one of our gems, and they want to go down path as fighters they're going to training. Stand the clinch and ground are going to be training. What we call mixed martial arts from day, one as a kind of a unified whole and that's what it's become. It's become its own sport, but when the? U of c first started: that's not what it was about orient started it as, as you said, kind of a science experiment, and the idea was to pit different styles of martial arts against each other, which is one of the reasons why that to this day, watching the first three or four Caesar still some of the finest because you're gonna see a kung fu guy, going in stone karate guire, whatever in your matching people? Up almost like you, you were talking about trying to match up different animals, There were no wait class, no way, ices and no rounds here. No gloves neil some of those things I I would like to see them go back to, but way classes. No gloves no time limit, at least in the first four scupper yo sees us for

I can remember, and the only real rules where you weren't supposed to attack the iser or the groin, and hoary had engaged in this experiment. The graces had engaged in this experiment in brazil for decades, so they knew what was gonna happen, but I don't think anybody else in the united states was particularly prepared for that and what you saw very quickly, was there's a certain handful of martial arts that will work in an environment and will work in any environment because their functional and soon we're talking about, makes for short, in turn about boxing, and we tie american rustling greco roman rest in brazilian jiu jitsu judo sambo, and so you start to look at these different. Carson. He said well. What are all these arts have in common that work in this environment and what they all have in common is they're all sports and because they're sports, the results matter because results mattered. They kept to some form of meritocratic competition. I have what I call an opponent process and

That is the key to what whether more short works. It doesn't work and I called out alive necessary I energy emotion and you and train and a fully alive when and knock it hurt and at a doesn't assuming full tax, barring sparring is alive but alive. This could be drilling alive. Ass could be working a technique. You usually will work the move then a few times and make sure somebody can mechanically, do it and then we'll put them into on allow I have drill where there's a sense of timing and it'll be a certain amount of failure and from that process, did they start to develop functional skill and all combat sports have a variation that process. You know the best coaches in Emma may, especially in the beginning, were always the rest coaches, because they they brought that whole a with them. When they came into came the the cage and much better teachers in many ways the sum of the brazilian jiu jitsu coaches, who really had taken a

a more of a traditional martial arts, teaching method applied it to resign jujitsu. The only difference was their rolling and cause a rolling a course they're getting that alive training under developing skill, but The rosters came with the drills with the movement, with understanding how to train like an athlete, and so all the arts dead. you'll see in makes martial arts now have their peace from various combat sports, and that was the real. I, the message of the sea, and now it's evolved to where it is its own sport is very rare. You're gonna see resigned your jets, who only person verses. You know somebody s primarily moiety or something like that: every see that fights now has skills stand up clenching ground. They all have pretty high levels of kickboxing y'all have wrestling, they all have a brazilian jujitsu on the ground, but it it took some time for that evolution to occur, and that was just a process of combat sports beings.

both in the cage and then eventually merging into what we now call Emma. So what what is the essential toolkit for stand up Clinton ground I? How would you summarize what everyone needs to know at this point to be a fully functional, combat sports athlete yeah? I try and think of it, as ranges and delivery systems as opposed to specific, martial arts. So if we talk about stana clinching ground, whatever you're working for stanhope stanhope would be striking, you're, not necessarily grabbing each other. But you're. U exchanging blows it's gonna be some variation of boxing. It's gonna have a kind of a boxing base, could be france, kickboxing swamp. We tie moroccan boxing, but the structure, the foot work, the body mechanics, that's what works when we're striking nottingham

and once you put hands on them in your standing in your in a clinch, there's a certain amount of fixed positions under hook over hook to on one dumb young you'd list out about nine or ten positions, you're gonna find yourself in single necktie double time and vat. we must combat. Sports will specialised in various positions within the clench, but having good, clinch by definition, means you can find that end in use the dollar we system of clench and flow back and forth, and then once we hit the ground, you have to be prepared to be in literally any position you could fall on the ground with another and being so brazilian jujitsu? You know, prepares you for that so the studio sewed so does right flanks there's a lot of arts that can work down there, but I try and think of it. You know Let me say: there's no such thing is

canadian geometry. I don't really think there's such a thing as a japanese chopin, you know, there's there's a best practice for cutting off the blood supply to somebody's head and if you get very good at that, then by definition, you're you're going to be good at the choke. And if we talk about a hip, throw you know there there's some very key details that make a good hip throw work and announced you'll see those details in roman resting you'll see those details in judo, you'll seamen, sambo a hip throws a hippodrome. So if you kind take the cultural affectations away from it that the different uniforms The different rules sets in just gonna. Look at it in a spray scientific way. Then we can start see, stana clinching ground, grounded delivery systems and their certain arts that you know we're deaf. gonna pull from more than others, for example, resign, jujitsu, underground some kind of kickboxing or boxing for standing, and in

winch. It's usually greco, roman and and moi. Tiresome variation of of that now and those are the arts we're going to pull from, but I like to look at it just from a purely objective kind of scientific, extensive, stanhope, clinching ground and all the various positions as opposed to individual style, and how would you differentiate all of that from martial arts that are pitched toward the explicitly the self defense market right? This is not the these are not sports, they're, very self, consciously, not sports. Their techniques are often described as to danger,

is to be fully tested because you, you can't train poking people on the ira, kicking him in the groin rights. These are. These are street techniques that tell you can't use in the EU have sea, and then you have arts the term market themselves as the best possible said of all of those two lethal techniques, rights and and suddenly cried mug. I would fall into this category and an art I studied in my youth? What was it was very much this a ninjutsu? What it really is yet I may have. I have my own opinions are on this topic. That will certainly echo yours, but what do you see as problematic about that particular talk it? So I called at the street, for sport follows

see. I talk a lot about that in the book. That was one of the one of the other reasons why I decided to write the book that particular fallacy drives me crazy, but in a weep you've heard for decades for years now what what you guys do for for sport in know, weathers one on wine and there's no weapons involved, and what we do were training for the quote: unquote street and people to understand that there is no special street technique. So the example I given the book, which is a simple one, is a headlong anybody who has been in a fight if you ever gonna fight as a child or as a kid in school, you probably experienced either being in a headlock or putting somebody and a headlock and punched him in their heads very natural thing for kids, to do and are fighting working people in general and that's a fixed position that admits to best practices, and there are ways where you can shape your body by creating connecting to the ground to build base and then adjusting your posture. The shape of your skeleton in relation to the

first skeleton were you now have leverage and You are going to win that confrontation pretty much every time. So if someone first comes into the gym as an example- and they don't know this and they get put in a headlock, they can certainly be stuck, especially if the other person's bigger and stronger and after a couple years by the time, most students start to become what we call bluebell, which is the first belt in in georgia to a headlong becomes a fair. These simple easy thing to escape from an. Usually means you're going to dominate that particular scenario, pretty much every time, so you go from a position where you would very likely fail to. you're gonna dominate that altercation pretty much every time. and the reason why you're going to dominate that altercation is because you're going to have basic posture, so you're you're putting his body in a position. We have leverage before you start to apply pressure, just push and pull. Now. If we do that that best practice is the best

It is in a cage if you're fighting a new scene get caught in a cage. It's gonna work there. If you're in you just two tournaments and you're in no fighting four points in a jujitsu torment, you put headlong it's gonna, be the same there and if you get in a fight on a park, lot and find yourself rolling around on the ground. With somebody in a headlong, it's gonna be the same there and so no special street headlong technique. No tactics may change. Certainly the stakes of the engagement may change, but the roots skills. You do up in the delivery system withstand clinching ground those you carry with you in every environment. In every situation an Someone who has several years of that kind of training, even if it's just primarily will just call a sport in brazil introduced soon. They focus must be on a tournament: jujitsu sport, digital against someone who doesn't have any of those skills. There's there's really no comparison and you're not going to make up for that deficit

I grabbing somebody in the groin or thinking you're gonna. Stick. Your thumb there eyeball or something like that. I should not how fighting works and so this idea that some martial arts or for sport and some marsh large for street is basically a fallacy. You can train specifically ninety five percent of the time for the street if you want to, for example, for law enforcement you're in a very specific type of training and in things that you're gonna, the sun, but though the route movements of the delivery system being behold, someone down and mount being able to escape from somebody sitting on your chest, being able upon somebody in the face being able to pick some went up and dropped them be, namely keep someone from picking you up and and dropping you wanna ask for those are universal

those transcend environment, and so that's one of the main points I trying it across the peoples. Not only is that kind of training so much healthier, the kind of combat athletics overtook him. I think it's mentally healthier and physically healthier and spiritually healthier. It's also more practical. At the. the day was. I see you seem to be alluding to what is uniquely powerful about grappling here. as I can say, is as someone who started his martial arts career with one. I would consider largely a fake martial arts. I can say is that the experience was one of india, agent in all of these some techniques that proper? would be to danger to train fully, and in fact they were again. You can't put your training partner in the for real to see if it works, but he even even just ordinary, striking based martial arts even valid ones

are limited and how fully you can train them because to repeatedly get hidden. It is synonymous with Brain damage right, so you ve, saved boxing or or movie tyrant. These other totally legitimate, striking systems are things that you have to train judiciously and when you're, not just so in europe, training them in a way that is compatible with with safety. It can become a good bit of a patent, I'm a violence rather than real violence, with grappling. What is unique about it. Is that you can you really can train at a hundred percent right? You can't you know, or or, as is something close to a hunter said a hundred true hundred percent being full on emergency of a real self defense situation, and given that you can train it that way without getting injured. Romeo, obviously do get injured in our world. can often get injured training ground

when as well. But it's not the same kind of injury that you get from striking because striking to be effective, really is synonymous with injury. I mean to hit some one in the head and have that work as a way of submitting them here I you knock them out. Is that is a concussion, and right that is synonymous with something bad happened into them: neurologically, whereas with grappling putting someone in a position where they cannot move and they could not prevent you from choking them unconscious, I e actually killing them if you want to do or making their arm and you and they just simply tat out. Need not have been injured at all, and yet you had. The experience depend on which side it exchange your on you at you either had the experience of camp. believe dominating someone, despite their hundred percent effort to not be dominated or you experience more likely over and over again in the beginning, have been completely done.

Needed and realising that you know you would have been killed or bravely injured, but for the fact that this was a training circumstance and they need a train at that level, where you're making a hundred percent effort against a hundred per cent resistance. That is what is so unique, at least my experience bout grappling in general and end in a procedure to specifically which is the one I focused on yeah yeah couple. Things are just a circle back to the street for sport a delusion for second, if someone said to me mad, I want to learn how to be able to throw hand in a fight I want to be able to punch and slip punches, and I want to be able to actually strike in a fight for the street, primarily for self defense. I would send them to a boxing gym. You know, because near last person you want to exchange blows within the street as a boxer, so it it is completely functional, but as you

mention all the combat sports are pretty tough on the body, and I think what we know now about traumatic brain injury. One of my great regrets is how hard we trained when I first started, and how hard we went with a lot of the students was way more had contact them. We should have used, and we don't do that any more, but we we kind of had to evolve into smarter practices for that, because, obviously those concussions build up and we don't wanna get brain damage, but jujitsu, unlike my tire, unlike any other arts, even judo undressing can be pretty hard on the body cause. The constant take down You just really is an art that you can train. Like you said, a hundred per cent alive fully functional go pretty hard if you want to on a regular basis and knock it. heard and in as at all circles, back into being able to defend yourself in a fight. If you have to end an altercation, there's really only three ways that altercations going to end the person's going to go away, they're just going to run off for some reason or it's going to get broken up or you're going to happen,

knock them unconscious, or you control them in such a way that they can't move and potentially choke them and of those three the most reliable way to end that fight is to control their body into choked him unconscious, because, no matter what substances they have flowing in there, It does not matter how strong they are, no matter how big they are. Once you cut off the flow of blood to their head, that they're going to go to sleep, and so that is the most practical, most efficient and really the beautiful part about ju jitsu. One of the things that makes present jiu jitsu unique is it's constant search for increased efficiency and so from just a purely practical standpoint It also makes a lot of sense to focus on your grappling part as jocko on other people have said before. If you can't run away from a situation, if you're, not a police officer, if you're not protecting, somebody else

at the time. You know, there's really, no reason why you should be engaged in some kind of status based dispute outside a bar or something like that situation. You could just leave if you can't that by definition means they're holding you there hanging on to you. They've got their arms around you they're, preventing your exit and that's when the skills of resigned jujitsu just come. we take over here. He also we ve, given at an overview of the training, here and the differences between real and and fake training. what lifted linger on the on the vagueness for a second, because it is somehow inscrutable that it persists and to this day right there there people, who are spending a tremendous amount of time, training in martial arts, Imagine in that, their preparing themselves for real violence. Zeal and we know that that is delusional dependent in interview if it's not like a keto or maybe we could cast opprobrium on on a long list of tricks,

No arts here is not that they may not have a technique here and there that is serviceable, but in general, these traditional hearts are theatres of delusion bribe and there extreme cases in and I have sent each other hilarious very was over the years of of that, the truly fake martial arts that are exposed as fake when some master, you know some kung fu master or a master of another flavor who's using energy. to defeat his opponents without even touching them here once at getting embarrassed by getting here repeatedly hit in the face by somebody who is non compliant and there just there many videos of this kind. How is it that this persists and how? How does one? maintain the delusion that you know from the side of the teacher from the side of of the student long enough for this thing to just continue for a lifetime That's interesting question and one of the questions I get

ass, the most what I'm teaching seminars are doing interviews this people ask me- and you know why do these kind of fancy based martial arts continue to exist and the thing I train room roma everybody is because something spin around along time doesn't mean its necessarily good, for as it just means is good replication, and so one of the one The reasons why, when you wrote the end of faith, that book really struck a chord with me, It's because what I was reading about the arguments that you would run up, a religious arguments that you'd run into and the weighty argument proceeded even kind of the which argument they used first and what the natural follow up was they're, identical to What we're talking on traditional martial arts, so you're gonna have, though it's basically religion. You're gonna have an origin story of you known some frail ma large master, who was blind or something like this in hand to learn how to fight and everything is based on appeal to authority.

and the master had to lay down these movements in some kind of secret pattern that gets passed down from generation to generation, and then you learn the patterns so that you can carry on the movements, but there's no aliveness, so it just becomes very it's just a sclerotic pattern and it which gets repeated. Why it persists, I think, is because, because what why people train, you know, I don't think everybody trains like when I went back to the g condos school after I'd. Had my my run in with Hickson- and I was trying to tell him- is like look. I just saw a guy tap a room of judo black belts without using his hands. He had his hands in his belt. He was you just rolling with his legs and he was submitting them. This is amazing. This is everything I've always heard. Martial arts could be able, but isn't this is the. The thing. And you know it was like where you don't want to be on the ground in a fight. How is he ever going to take you down and and so they all these underlying excuses, but really at the core they weren't training,

for the same reason, I was training. I was training because I wanted to know what worked in a fight and, honestly, that's never really change. That's been my core driving focus of what's true and martial arts, and they were not, and so, if you're, not motivated by that, you know then someone martial arts of some of the more ridiculous ones actually get more fraction, which is one of the other things interesting on you systemic and examples, ridiculous, fake russian, martial arts But where you'll see some obese guy, you barely moving and pretending to knock people down and you'll. Think to yourself, you nine over smart, intelligent, martial artists who also train in arts like brazilian jiu, jitsu or boxing, and who can then still kind of get suckered by that kind of stuff, and it is so transparently ridiculous, but I actually think that the ridiculous kind of nature of it is part of what attracts him to it, because in a way

we're looking for a magic bullet. They want some. They want there to be some magic, martial art that can allow you know and frail. Eighty five year old person, personal beat up two football players in the park. Lot and learn deeply motivated by by that, and then they start to to chase after it, and as long as I think, people have that inside them there's going to be con artists who are going to whip up some fake, martial art to to sell and and the sad part. but it too is because a see some of the younger kids, maybe kids that were bullied and school get a track to some of those martial arts, because the marketing, because the marketing is always about, learn how to do and yourself in the street, and I think it's really unhealthy path for them to go down. And I know if you took that's im young man and you put them in my school or any good resigned, jitsu academy or mixed martial arts school in two or three years. They would be completely transform. You know in a positive way about how they

deal with people. So we have a solution for those problems, but it's not what those guys were offering didn't do justice to circle back on that you're experiencing Jeet Kune. Do didn't dan in a sano actually become a brazilian jujitsu black belt in the end and yeah, I think he's a black belt under Hagan Machado, yet so gee, he must have understood the the utility or they will you. Will you training with Dan or what she can do school? Did you go back to? He would bring him up so that when I, the school I initially taught at in portland oregon was a chicken No academy and my partner in the school was an instructor under dan and dishonest sued. Damn would come up a couple times a year and I got opportunity to spend time with him and semen seminars. I just think that they have a biscuit it approach approach. So with can gigolo community you basically at all a tangent but real quickly. They divided into kind of two groups, so the first group with a call regional and their primary,

focus is teaching and doing exactly were brutally did, which is insane saucer. Thirty three, old movie star, he died when was thirty. Three movie star was only exposed to a certain amount of you know a material at the time, and they want to take that and kind of codify it and make that an art and so one hand you have a kind of a traditional marshall are being made in the g, can know concepts community. They had this kind of like a said utilitarian approach, where they would pull from all these different arts, and there would be resigned you just soon. There would be more time and it would be boxing then they would have some ridiculous peace from sea lottery from sistema. Who knows what an they weren't really discriminating, and I would hear the instructors discriminate privately amongst each other when they would talk but winner in front of them. whoop, when they're of the seminar, it was a different story. It was all. I said something good. You know it just depends on the context, and that begin to frustrate me, because it seemed duplicitous reminds

We, what happens in religion when you'll have somebody you of your engaged in a debate with someone and they'll start. talking about how everything and genesis is a metaphor and and but then, when you goin sitting,

congregation and listened to him preach realized. The majority of the congregation of that same person takes genesis to be a news report, and so there's a disconnect between what they're, privately saying and what they're publicly teaching, and so for me. I just couldn't I I also just I can't fathom why, when we have an art like jujitsu, we have a. I don't have enough time in the day to even get close the amount of jujitsu training that I could be doing. Why would I want to train something? Silly just doesn't make any sense to me button those the two camps, and- and so it was like an all- you can eat buffet and a lot of it was junk food, and I think they thought that you could pull different techniques from different martial arts and create your own style, and I just don't think that's how fighting works and instead, what you should be doing is looking for the fundamental movements of standard clenching ground and through it

process of alive training over the period of ten fifteen twenty years, each individual athlete develops his or her own style, and then you know the temptation is to teach your style when, in reality, what you need to do is turn around and help other athletes go through that same journey so that they can develop their own style and what we all share and have in common are the fundamentals of standup clinching ground, but each fighter will be completely unique and different, and to me, that's what reading the the best possible interpretation and bruce Lee writing to me, that's what he was actually seeking to do, and some somewhere along the way I just got lost. Let some talk for awhile about the difference for men and women in this theatre of concern, because it seems that men and women encounter violence if they encounter it at all in very different ways and by different

lodging with a very few women who are challenged to step outside on the street in and get into a a fist fight you now I e a dual with a stranger in us at a bar, and men tend, not least, you know outside of a prison context at ten, not to get raped, physically, controlled and and sexually assaulted The way women do so that there's there's just differences here. Let s start with men and the kinds of ways in which they they find themselves in physical conflict unnecessary early in the day that that is avoidable ii and the other guy. I think you ve used the word at least once so far away at it. It is relevant here and the concept of maturity, hetty think about maturity, psychologically and and its relevance to keeping men safe yeah. So that's it. That's a big part of the book for me in that

something I started to see. You know when I decided to write the book. I went looked at the data first and you know who attack soon when and all I can to soften when the one unmistakable. I think conclusion anybody who looks at the data has to draw from is that a great deal of interpersonal violence comes as a result of issues related to maturity. So you know it's not. Much about. Even if we talk about the shootings just to talk about gang, related shootings results in the street, it's not usually financial, its young men battling it out with all the other young men over stupid status, space disputes. This is the majority category and a plurality of reasons why violence is committed when we're talking about the majority category. That is it and I don't think a lot of people fully realize that is simply have fatherless young men hurting and engaging in conflict with other fatherless young men, and that that is a big portion of what we have is problematic violence,

women it's different. So the biggest threat to woman is gonna, be her significant other dating very dangerous work for women Serena. At least half the women are doing this. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe that sam Harris network once you do you'll get access to all full length episode, the making sense podcast, along with other subscriber, only content, including bonus episodes, and am yes, and the conversations I've been having on the waking up at the makings has podcast his ad free in relies entirely and listeners, or you can subscribe now at san harris dot. Org I