The following is a conversation with as james gates, junior he's a theoretical physicists and professor brown university working on super symmetry super gravity, a super string theory. He served on former president obama's council of advisers on science technology and he's not the co author of a new book titles proving Einstein right about the scientists who set out to prove I says de relativity, you may have noticed there have been speaking- would not just computer scientists but philosophers mathematicians physicists.

Economists and soon much more to me eyes much bigger than deep learning bigger than computing is our civilization journey, its understanding the human mind and creating echoes of it in the machine that journey includes, of course, the world a theoretical physics and its practice of first principles, mathematical thinking, exploring the fundamental nature of our reality. This is the artificial intelligence podcast he enjoyed subscribe. I need to get five stars and apple podcast following spotify support. around or simply connect with me on twitter at lex Friedman spelled f r. I d m a n. If you leave a review on apple, podcasts or youtube or twitter, consider mashing ideas, people topics you find interesting: it helps guide the future of this podcast, but in general I just love comments that are full of kindness and thoughtfulness in them.

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maximum effectiveness, when you get cash out from the app store google play in use code lex, podcast you'll get ten dollars in cash. Apple also need ten dollars. The first, which again, is not essential that have personally seen aspire girls and boys to dream of engineering about a world, and now his my conversations with ass, jane, skates junior yeah, the You tell a story when you are eight, he had a profound realization that the stars in the sky are actually places that we could travel to one day. Do you think human beings will ever venture outside our solar system while the question of whether humanity?

it's outside of the solar system, it's going to be a challenge and as long as the laws of physics that we have today are accurate and valid, it can be extraordinarily difficult. I missed a science fiction fan, as you probably know, so I love to dream of starships and traveling to other solar systems, but the berries are just

Formidable, if we just cannot venture a little bit into science fiction, do you think the spaceships? If we are successful that take us outside the solar system, will look like the ones we have today or do fundamental breakthrough or are fundamental breakthroughs necessary in order to have genuine starships, probably some relief radical views about the way the universe works is are going to have to take place in our science? We could have with a current technology think about constructing multi, generational starships, where the people who get on them are not the people who get off at the other end and but even.

if we do that, then the formule problems, actually our bodies, which doesn't seem to be conscious for a lot of people even getting to mars. There's gonna present this challenge because we live in this wonderful home as a protective magnetic magneto see around it, as it were shielded from conflict.

Creation once you leave for the shield. There are some estimates that, for example, if you sent someone to mars it with our technology, probably about two years out there without the shield they're going to be bombarded. That means radiation probably means cancer. So that's one of the most formal challenge, even if we could get over the technology. Do you think that mars is a harsh place, the elon musk, spacex and other folks nasa are really pushing to put a human being on mars. Do you think again, let's forgive me for lingering in science fiction land for a little bit. Do you think one day we may be able to colonize mars? First, do you think we'll put a human on mars and then do you think we'll put many humans on mars? So, first of all we're not I, I am extraordinarily convinced we will not put a human on mars by two thousand and thirty, which is a date.

that you often hear in the public debate. What's the challenge there, while you think so, are there a couple of ways that I could slices, but the one that I think is simplest for people to understand involves money. So you look at how we got to the moon in the nineteen sixties is about ten year duration between the challenge that president Kennedy laid out and are successfully landing. A moon I was actually here at mit when that first movement landing occurred. I remember watching on tv, but how do we get there? Well

This extraordinary, a technical agency of the united states government nasa it consumed about five percent of the country's economic output, and so you say, five percent. The economic output over about a ten year period gets us two hundred and fifty thousand miles in space. Mars is about a hundred times father, so you have at least a hundred times a challenge and worse spending about one tenth of the funds that we spent, then as a government. So my claim is that its at least a thousand times hard. for for me to imagine as getting to mars by two thousand and thirty, and he had that part. The mentioned in his speech that I just have to throw in there of jeff care of we do these things, not because they're easy, but because they're hard such a beautiful line- that I would love to hear modern president say about a scientific endeavour,

well one day. Oh, we live in hope that such a precedent will arise for our nation, but even if, like us that, even if you, you fix the problem of technical problems, the biological engineering that I worry most However, I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I think that by one thousand and ninety or so or two thousand one hundred and let's say one hundred and twenty, I suspect, we're going to have a human. Lastly, I think that many years out, the first of a few tangents said bioengineering as a chair, a challenge whoa. What's what's with the challenge there, so as I said, though, that the real problem with the interstellar travel aside from the technologies challenges, the real problem is,

nation, and how do you engineer either an environment or a body? Because we see rapid advances going on in bioengineering? How do you engineer either a ship or body so that something some person that's recognizably union human will survive the rigours of interplanetary space travel is much more difficult than most people say take into account. So if we can link in the twenty ninety twenty one hundred twenty one, twenty sort of thinking of that kind of.

You know and we're less than garden money. Okay, so elon, musk and Jeff bezos are pushing the cost. China could push the costs down. I mean this is so, do you have hope, as this actually a sort of a brilliant big picture? Scientists do, do you think a business entrepreneur can take science and make it cheaper and get it out there faster. So, bending the cost curves you'll notice- that has been an anchor this the simplest way for me to discuss this with people about what the challenges so, yes, bending the cost curve is I was certainly critical. If we're going to be successful. Now you ask about the the endeavors that are out there now sponsored by two very prominent american citizens, Jeff bezos and elon musk. I'm disappointed actually in what I see in terms of the routes that are being

we pursued. So let me give you one example there this one is going to be a little bit more technical. So if you look at the kinds of rockets that both these organizations are creating, yes, it's wonderful, reusable technology to see a rocket go up and land on it's fins, just like it did in science fiction movies. When I was a kid that's astounding, but the The real problem is those rockets. The technology that we're doing now is not really that different than what was used to go to the moon, and there are alternatives. It turns out. There's an engine caught, a flare engine which so a traditional rocket. If you look at the engine, looks like a bill right and then a flame cut out the bottom, but there is a kind of engine caught a flare engine which is essentially when you look at it. It looks like

an exhaust pipe. Unlike a fancy car, this long and elongated, and it's a type of rocket engine that we know we know it's. There have been preliminary testing, we know it works and it also is actually much more economical, because what it does is allow you to vary the amount of thrust as you go up in a way that you cannot do with one of these bell shaped engines. So you would think that an entrepreneur might try to have the breakthrough to use flared nozzles as they're called as a way to bend the cost curve, because as we, he coming back, that's going to be a big factor, but that Not happening, in fact, what we see is what I think of as incremental change in terms of our technology. So I'm not really very encouraged by what I personally see to incremental change, won't bend the cost curve, and I don't see it. just linger on safe? I for one more question sure Do you think we're alone in the universe, I within

the only intelligent form of life, so there is a quote by Carl Sagan which I really love. When I hear this question- and I am- I recall the quote- and it goes up- like before the only conscious life in the universe. It's a terrible ways of space, because the universe is an incredibly big place and when Carl me, that's statement, we didn't know about the profusion of planets. Tat are out there. In the last decade we ve discovered over a thousand planet and a substantial number of those planets are earth like in terms of being in the goldilocks his own, as it's called. So it's and, in my mind, is practically inconceivable. That were the only conscious

his form of life in the universe, but that doesn't mean they've come to visit us. Do you think they would look? Do you think will recognize alien life? If we saw it, do you think it look anything? Like the carbon based the biological system, we have on earth today it would appear on that lives native environment in which it arose if that environment was sufficiently like our environment. There's a principle in biology in nature called convergence, which is that, even if you have two biological systems that are totally separated from each other, if they face similar conditions, they tend to can nature tend to converge on solutions.

and so there might be similarities if this alien life form was born in a place. That's kind of like this place. Physics appears to be quite similar. The laws of physics across the entirety of the universe. Do you think weirder things than we see on earth can spring up out of the same kinds of laws of physics from the laws of physics. I would say yes, first of all, if you look at carbon based life, why we carbon base? Well, it turns out it's because of the way that carbon interacts with elements which, in fact, is also a reflection on the elect, chronic schleck structure of the carbon nucleus. So you can look down the table of elements and say well, gee. Do we see similar other elements? The answer is yes and one that when an often hears about in science fiction is silicon, so maybe

silicon based life form out there if the conditions are right, but I think is presumptuous of us to think that we are the a template by which all life as to appear before we dive into beautiful details. Let me ask a big question: what to use the most beautiful idea, maybe the most surprising, mysterious idea in physics them Surprising idea to me is that we can actually do physics. The universe did not have to be constructed in such a way that our with our limited intellectual capacity that is actually put together in such a way that we are put together in such a way that we can

with our minds. I delve incredibly deeply into the structure of the universe that, to me is pretty close to a miracle to their simple equations, relatively simple that can describe things. You know the fundamental functions I think discuss everything about our reality. That's not. Can you imagine universes where everything is a lot more complicated? You think there's something inherent about universe, that well simple laws:

well. First of all, let me this is a question that I encounter in a number of guises. A lot of people will raise the question about whether mathematics is the language of the universe and my responses. Mathematics is the language that we humans are capable of using in describing the universe. It may have little to do with the universe, but in terms of our capacity, it's the microscope. It's the telescope, through which we have the it's the lens through which we are able to view the universe with the precision that no other human language allows. So could there be other universes? Well, I don't even know, one looks like I think it does. But the beautiful surprising thing is that of physics. There are laws of physics, very few laws of physics. They can effectively compressed down the functioning of the universe. Yes,

extraordinarily surprising. I like to use the analogy with computers and information technology. If you worry about the transmitting large bundles of data are one of the things that computer scientists do for us has said, allow for processes that are caught compression. Will you take big packets of data in your press them down into much smaller packets, and then you transmit those and then unpack them at the other? and so it it looks a little bit to me like the universe, is kind of done us. A favour is constructed our minds and such

The that we have this thing called mathematics which then, as we look at the universe, teaches us how to carry out the compression process. A quick question about compression: do you think of the human mind can be compressed the the biology can be compressed? We talked about space travel, to be able to compress the information that captures some large percent of what it means to be me or you and then be able to send that at the speed of light, wow, that's a big question and let me try to take it apart and pack it into several pieces. I don't believe that wet ware biology, such as we are, has an exclusive patent on in an intellectual consciousness. I suspect that other structures in the universe are perfectly capable of producing the data streams that we

It's a process. First of all, our observations of the universe in an an awareness of ourself. I can imagine other structures can do that. Also, so that's part of what you were talking about, which I would have some disagreement with consciousness yeah. What's the most interesting part of consciousness, of a assume, as is cautious, This is the thing. I think that the most interesting thing about you and then you're saying that there is other entities throughout the universe I could emerge. I can well imagine that the architecture that supports our consciousness again has no patten on consciousness. Just in case you have an interesting thought here deserve folks, perhaps philosophy called pants. Ike is the belief,

consciousness, underlies everything. It is one of the fundamental laws of the universe. Do you have a sense that that could possibly fit into? I don't know the answer, their question, one part of that belief system is gear and which is that this kind of conscious life force about planet and you know I've been counted these things before. I don't quite know what to make of them. I my own exp life experience and I'm I'll be sixty nine in about two months, and I have spent all my adulthood thinking about the way that mathematics interacts with the nature and with us to try to understand nature, and all I can tell you from all of my integrating

Experience is that there is something extraordinarily mysterious to me about our universe. This associate einstein said of from his life experience as a scientist, and this mysterious nist almost feels like the universe's apparent it's a very strange thing, perhaps to hear science say it, scientists say, but they are just so many strange coincidences that you just get a sense that something is going what, while I interrupted you in terms of compressing, what were down to consented at the speed of light? Yes, so so the first thing is, I would argue that it's probably very likely that artificial intelligence ultimately will develops or something like consciousness, something that for us will probably be indistinguishable from consciousness.

So that's what I meant by our biological processing equipment that we carry up here probably had does not hold a patent on consciousness, because it's really about the data streams. I mean that's as far as I can tell that's what we are. We are 's self, actuating self learning data streams that to me lose most accurate way. I can tell you what I have seen in my lifetime about what Humans are at the level of consciousness. So, if that's the case, then you just need to have an architecture that supports that information processing.

So let's assume that that's true dad that, in fact, what we call consciousness is really about a very peculiar kind of data stream. If that's the case, then, if you cannot export that to a piece of hardware, something metal electronic, what have you, then you certainly will ultimately caught kind of consciousness could get to mars very quickly. It doesnt have our problems. You can engineer the by eta say this a ship or about if you engineer near one or both, I send it to the speed of light? Well that one is a more difficult one, because that now goes beyond just a matter of having a data stream islam now the preservation of the information in the data stream, and so unless you can build something. That's like a super super supervision.

in of the way the internet works, because most people are aware that the internet itself is actually a miracle, is based on technology caught message packaging. So if you could exponentially eight message, packaging in some way to preserve the information that in the data stream then, maybe your dream becomes true, giving you mention with artificial intelligence that divide us. human beings are. Having a monopoly unconsciousness does the idea of artificial intelligence systems computational systems being able to basically replacing us humans scare? You accept. You. What do you think about? So I'm going to tell you about a conversation I once had with Eric Schmidt. I was sitting at a meeting with him and he was a few feet away and he turned to me- and he said, do something

like you know, gym and maybe a decade or so we're going to have computers that do what you do and my response was not unless they can dream, because there's something about the human, the way that we humans actually generate creativity, it's somehow I get. I get the sense of my lived experience and watching creative people that somehow connected to the irrational parts of what goes on in our head and dreaming is part of that irrational that so, unless you can build a piece of artificial intelligence at dreams, have a strong suspicion that you will not get something that will fully be conscious by a definition that I would accept. For example, the mission dreaming you've played around with some out there fascinating ideas. How do you think, when, the star diving into the world of the very small ideas, a super sarah gene or that in terms of visuals asian into reserve. How do you think about it? Honey,

dream of it. Are you come up with ideas in that's fascinating, mysterious space? So in my work, space, which is basically, where I am charged with coming opponent, coming up on a mathematical palate with new ideas that will help me understand the structure of nature and hopefully help for all of us understand the structure of nature. I've observed several different ways in which my Creativity expresses itself is one mode which looks pretty normal, which I sort of thinking as the chinese, water, torture, method, drop, drop, drop. You get more and more information is suddenly it all congeals and you get a clear picture and sets a kind of a standard way of working, and I think that our most people think about the way technical people solve problems that is kind of. You accumulate this body of information than a certain point. You synthesize it and then boom there's something new, but I've also observed in myself.

and other scientists that there are other ways that we are creating a creative and these other ways to me are actually far more powerful. I first person experience this when I was a freshman at mit, overrun, bigger house right across the campus and I was a new calchas course. Eight, no one is called at mit and calculus comes into four different flavors. One of those caught different differential calculus is called called integral calculus differential calculus is the calculus that newton invented to describe a motion chairs are integral It was probably invented about seventeen hundred years earlier by our committees, but we didn't know that when I was a fresh, but so that's what you study as a student and the different or calchas partly course was to me, I wouldn't honey. I say this. It was something, though, that by the drip drip drip method you could sort of figured out now, the integral part of countless. I could memorize the formula that

not the formulae that was not the problem. The problem was why, in my own mind, why do these formerly work and because of that, when I was in the part of the cap, is course where we had to do multiple substitution to solve integrals I had a lot of different. I was emotionally involved, my education, because This is where I think the passion of pushing comes to and it cost and emotional christ that I was having these difficulties: understanding the integral part of calculus the. Why the why That's right the! Why? But not the member wrote members asian effect, but the why of it? Why does this work, and so one night I was when my dormitory room and baker house, I was trying to do a calchas problem set.

I was getting nowhere. I got a terrific headache. I went to sleep and had this very strange dream and when I walk walk awakened, I could do three and four substitution and gross with. Lots of ease. Now this to me was an astounding experience, because I had never before my life understood that one subconscious is actually capable of being harnessed to do mathematics. I experienced it this and I've experienced this more than what so this was just the first time why I remember it so so that's why, when it comes to like really wickedly tough problems, I think that the kind of creativity that you need to solve them is probably the second variety which comes somehow from dreaming. If you think again, I told you I'm russian, so we're romanticize suffering, but do you think part of that equation? Is the sun

freeing leading up to that dreaming. So the suffering is it. I am convinced that this kind of creative sick, this second mode of creativity as I like to call it. I am convinced that this second mode of creativity is in fact that suffering is a kind of crucible that triggers. Because the mine, I think, is struggling to get out of this and the only when the only real he does actually solve the problem. Even though you're not consciously solving problems something is going on and I've talked about a few other people in the third other similar stories, and so either way. I guess who I think about it. Is it's a little bit by like the way that the thermonuclear weapons and if you know how they work, but thermonuclear weapon is actually to bombs is an atomic bomb which sort of doubting oppression, and then you have a fusion bombing.

often somehow that emotional pressure, I think, acts like the first stage of thermal thermonuclear weapon? That's when we get really big thoughts. The analogy between german nuclear weapons in the subconscious. The connection there is at least visually ass kind of interest: well, I heard there may be freud would have a few things to say. Well, part of it is probably based on my own trajectory through life. My father was in the army for us or for the us army for twenty seven years, and so I started my life out on military bases and so a lot of probably the things that wander around in my subconscious are connected to the experience I apologize for all the tangents, but while you're doing it by ear,

courage, binding answering the stupid questions, not stupid. You know your father was in the army. What do you think about? And you're, the grass Thyssen recently wrote a book, interlinking the progress of science to serve the aspirations of our military, endeavors and darpa funding, and so on. will you think about war in general? Do you think will always have war? Do you think will always

I am glad she looked in the world, I'm not sure that we're going to be able to afford to have war always because, if strictly financially speaking, no not in terms of finance but in terms of consequences. So if you look at the technology today, you can have non state actors acquire technology, for example, bioterrorism which, whose impact is roughly speaking equivalent to what it used to take nations to impart on a population. I think the cost of war is ultimately it's going to be a little. I think it's going to work a little bit like the cold war. You know we survived fifty sixty years as a species with these weapons that are so terrible that they could have actually ended our form of life on this planet, but it didn't. Why didn't it most?

bizarre and interesting thing, but it was called mutually assured destruction, and so the cost was so great that people eventually figured out that you can't really use these things, which is kind of interesting, because if you read the history about the development of nuclear weapons, fist is actually realized his pretty quickly. I think it was maybe schroeder who said that these things are not really weapons their political and implements and not weapons, because the cost is so high and if you take that example and spread it out to the kind of technological development were seeing now outside of nuclear physics, but I I picked example of biology. I could well imagine that there would be material science, sorts of equivalents that that across a broad front of technology, you you take that experience from nuclear weapons and the picture that I see is that it'll be so they'll, be possible, develop technology that are so terrible that you couldn't use them

the costs are too high and that might cure, and many people have argued that actually prevented nuclear weapons have prevented and more military conflict than it certainly froze the conflict domain. It's interesting that nowadays, it was with the removal of the threat of mutually assured destruction that the other forces took over and urge geopolitics. Politics give worries that of of or threats of nuclear weapons or other technologies like artificer, thousands, you think we humans will tend to figure out how to nobbler cells up I dont know quite frankly, this is only I've thought about hander it. I'm not. I mean

I am a spectator in the sense that, as a scientist, I collect and collate data, so I've been doing that all my life and looking at my species- and it's not clear to me that we- We are going to avoid a catastrophic self induced ending. I optimistic as a not as a scientist but as a rule I would today, I would see I wouldn't bet against us beautifully put- was dive into the war, the very small if he could. First it one of the basic particles either exe.

I mentally observed or hypothesized by physicist. So as we physicists look at the universe, you can. First of all, there are two big buckets of particles. That is the smallest objects that we are able to currently mathematically conceive and then experimentally verify that these ideas have an act of a sense of accuracy them. So one of those buckets we call matter. These are things like electrons or things that are like corks, which are particles that exist side of protons and there's a whole family of these things. There are, in fact, eighteen works and apparently six electron like objects that we call leaped hunt. So at one book, the other bucket

We see both in our mathematics as well as in our experiment to equipment are what are set of particles that you can call force carriers. The most familiar force carrier is the photon. The particle like that allows you to see me in fact is the same object that carries. Electric repulsion between like charges from science fiction. We have the object, called the gravity on which has talked about a lot and science fiction and star trek, but the gravity Also a mathematical object that we physicists have known about? Essentially, since iced I wrote his theory of general activity.

there are four forces of nature. The fundamental forces there is the gravitational force it's carrier is the graph atop. There are three other forces of nature: the electromagnetic force, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force in each one of these forces has at one or more carriers. The fulton is the carry of the electromagnetic force. The strong nuclear force actually has eight carriers, they are called glue, ons and then the weak nuclear force as three carriers, they're called the w plus w minus and z bosons. So those are the things that both in the mathematics and in experiments the most. By the way, the most precise experiments were a ever ass. A species able to conduct is about measuring the accuracy of these ideas, and we know that at least one partner billion. These ideas are right. So, first of all,

you've made it sound, both elegant and simple, but is it crazy to you that there is force carriers, a gazette supposed to be a trivial idea to think about if we think about photons go ons that there's four fundamental forces of physics and then those forces are expressed. There's carriers, those forces? I again is that a kind of trivial thing: it's not a trivial thing at all. In fact, it was a puzzle for sir Isaac newton because he's the first person to give us basically physics before Isaac newton physics didn't exist. What did exist was caught natural philosophy, so discussions about using the methods of classical philosophy to the others

and nature natural philosophy. So the greeks, who are we to call them scientists, but they were natural philosophers. Physics doesn't get born until newton writes the principia one of the things that puzzled him was how gravity works, because if you read very carefully what he writes, he basically says and I'm paraphrasing badly, but he basically says that someone who thinks deeply about this subject would find it inconceivable that what an object in one place, place or location can magically reach out and affect another object with

nothing intervening, and so it puzzled him. Does it puzzle you? What action at a distance I mean not as it would it would? It would accept that I am a physicist and we have long ago resolve this issue, and the resolution came about through a second great physicists. Most people have heard of newton. Most people have heard of einstein, but between the tooth- and there was another extraordinarily great physicist- a man named James clerk Maxwell and maxwell between these two other giants taught us about electric and magnetic forces and is from his he. Visions that one can figure out that there's a carrier caught the photon, so this was resolved for physicist around eighteen, sixty rsa, so what're, both arms and formulas, and hedge funds through her country and sure so earlier.

You think it's you have got to buckets if you want to try to build a university or start off with things on these two bucket, so you have things. That's me, better, and then you have to have other objects of act on them to cause those things to go here to of fixed finite patterns, because you need those fix, my parents as blocks, that's the in over sixty people like me now the building blocks do different things. So, let's go back to these two buckets again. Let me start with a bucket contain the particle light. Let me imagine, I'm into a dusty room with two flashlights, and I have one flashlight, which I direct directly in front of me: Then I have you stand overtook us say my left and then we both take our flashlights and turn them. make sure the beams go right through each other and the beams do just that. They go right through each other. They dont bounce off each other. The reason the room has be dusty is because we want to see the light,

what the real dust wasn't there. We wouldn't actually see the light until it got to the wall right. So you see the beam cause, it's dust in the air, but the duke beams actually pass right through each other. They literally pass rates that they don't affect each other at all. When acts like they're, not there things there are the particle of light is the simplest example that shows that behaviour? That's a bowser now, let's imagine that I have to work in the same, the room at this time. We have a bucket of balls and I have a bucket of balls and we try to throw them so that they pass so that we get something like a beam, throwing a fast right. If they collide, they don't just passed through each other. They bounce off each other. Now, that's mostly because they have electric charge.

An electric charges like charged repel but mathematically. I know how to turn off the electric charge. If you do that, you'll find they still repel and its because they are these things we caught farmyards. So this is how you distinguish the things that are in the two buckets: they are either bowes ants or formulas which of them- and maybe we can mention night. They must pay The third bosons, the most recently discovered she's. It's like a yeah, it's like when I was in high school and there was a really popular major at her neighbors, her name as the higgs particle. These days can you describe which, which which are the basis for me. I have been discovered hypothesized, which have been experiment. they value is still out there right. So the two buckets that I've actually describe to you have all been first hypothesized and then verified by observation with the higgs, both on being the most reach.

one of these things we haven't actually verified the gravity. Interestingly enough, we mathematically wean ex, haven't expectation, expectation that gravitas like, but we ve not performed experimenter, show that this is an accurate idea that nature you to something has to be a carrier for the force of gravity exactly because eighty something way more mysterious than we, so we said a granite on. Is it? Would it be like the other particles, Force carriers incidents are much more that it is always yes what in other ways now it turned out that the gravity is also. If you look at einstein's theory, he taught us about this thing. He calls space time which is the EU. If you try to imagine that you could sorta think of it as kind of a rubber surface at one popular depiction of spacetime, it's not an accurate depiction, because the only accuracy is actually in the calculus that he uses, but

close enough. So if you have a sheet of she'd rubicund wave it, you can actually form a wave on it. Space hemison enough, like that, so that, when space time oscillates you create these ways these ways carry energy- we expect them to carry energy quanta, that's what a grab autonomous, it's a wave and space time and so The fact that we have seen the waves with legal over the course of the last three years and we ve Some may use gravitational waves, observatories watch, colliding black holes, neutrons us and also to of really cool stuff up. They're, so we know the waves exist, but in order to know that gravitons exists, you have to prove that these ways carry energy in energy packets and that's what we don't have the technology to do yet, and perhaps brief jumping to a philosophical question. Does it make sense to you? The gravity is so much weaker than the other forces now

there's no that's all you see now. You ve touched on a very deep mystery about physics. There are lots of such questions of physics about why things are as they are, and as someone who believes that the there are some things that are certainly arc or coincidences like you could ask the same question about what. Why are the planets at the orbis at the are around the sun? The internet there's no good reason, it's just an accident, so there are things in nature that have that character, and perhaps those thanks for the week of various forces, is like that. On the other hand, we don't know that that's the case, and there may be some deep reasons about why the forces are ordered, They are where the weakest forces gravity the next week is forces the weak interaction, the weak nuclear force than theirs electromagnetism this force. We don't really have a good understanding of why the city ordering the forces.

Some of the fancy work you ve done is in the space of super symmetry. Symmetry in general can describe first of all, what is super cemetery? Ah, yes, do you move the two bucks? I told you about a person earlier, so there are two buckets in our universe. So now I want you to think about drawing a a a pie that has four quadrants, so I want you to cut the piece of pie in fourths, so when khartoum I'm going to put all the buckets that we talked about like that, are like the electron, the corks in a different quadrant, I am going to put all the force carriers the other two quadrants are empty. Now, if you I showed you a picture of that. You'd see a circle. There would be a bunch of stuff in one upper quadrant and stuff in others, and then I would ask you a question: does that?

it's symmetrical to you now know and that's exactly right, because we humans actually have a very deeply programmed sense of symmetry. It is something that is part of that mystery of the universe. So how would you make it symmetrical? One way you could buy singles to empty quadrants had things and then also, and if you do, that that super symmetry well understood when I was a graduate student here in at mit and ninety seventy five wooden the idea when the mathematics of this was first being born super cimeter was actually born in the ukraine in late sixties. But we have this thing called the iron curtain, so we westerners didn't know about it, but by the early seventies and independently, there were scientists in the west who heD rediscover super sooner symmetry bruno's amino acids

his best with their names. So this was around seventy one or seventy two. When this happened, I started graduate school in seventy three, Sir Ralph. Seventy fought for seventy five. I was trying to figure out how to write a thesis so that I could become a physicist, the rest my life, I did not agree if the professor James young, who had taught me a number of things about electrons and weak forces in those sorts of things. But I decided that if I was going to have a really hard to earn an opportune to maximize my chances of being successful. I to strike in a direction that other people were not study. consequence, I surveyed ideas that were going there were being developed and I came across the idea super symmetry

and it was so. The mathematics was so remarkable that I just it me me over. I actually have undergraduate undergraduate degrees, my first undergrad into his actually mathematics and my second is physics, even though I always wanted to be a physicist plan, a which involve getting good grades was mathematics, how's, the mathematics, major thinking about graduate school, but my heart was in relax. If we could take a small digression. What's to you, the most beautiful idea, mathematics they u encountered in this into play, became math and physics is the idea of symmetry. The fact that are in a sense of symmetry want wines of aligning with just incredible mathematics to me is the most beautiful thing, it's very straight

but true that if cemeteries were perfect, we would not exist as or even though we have these very powerful ideas about balance in the universe. In some sense, it's only when you break this balance is that you get creatures like humans objects like planets and stuff, cars. So although they are a scaffold for reality, they cannot be the entirety of reality. So I. Am kind of naturally attracted to parts of science and technology, where symmetry that plays a dominant role in. I just, I guess immature as you said, but the the magic happens when you break the symmetry, the magic happens when you break the symmetry, ok diving way back in you mentioned for quadrants, yes to tour filled with stuff. What can we do about? It gets and then there's crazy mathematical thing, ideas fulfilling the other, in other words, what what? What are those things so,

earlier. The way I describe these two buckets is, I get gave you a story that started out by putting us in a dusty room with two flashlights and I turn on your flashlight, our eternal mine. The beans will go through each other and the beams are composed of force carriers caught photons carry the electromagnetic force and they pass through each other. So imagine looking at the mathematics of such an object, which you not imagine people like me do that. So you take that mathematics and then you ask yourself for question. You see. Mathematics is a pallet, it's just like a musical camper musical composer is able to construct to construct. Very issues on a theme were a piece of mathematics in the hand of a visit is something that we can chuck variations on. So even though the mathematics at Maxwell gave us but light. Oh, we know how to consider

Variations on that and one of the very issues you can have struck ass, a say suppose you have a forced scarier for electromagnetism that behave like an electron that in that it would be a source of another one. It's that's changing a mathematical terminal equation, so if you did that you would have a forced carrier, so I say: first belongs in this forced carrying bucket, but it's got this property of bouncing off like electrons, that you say what ye wait. No, that's! Not the right bucket, so you're forced to actually put it in when these empty quadrants, so those sorts of things we basically we give them a so. The photon on a mathematically can be accompanied by a fortino. It's the thing that carries the force, but the rule of bouncing off in a similar manner. You could start with an electron, and you say: ok

so write down the mathematical electron? I know how to do that. Physicists named dirac first told us how to do that back in the nineteen late twenties early thirties so take that mathematics and then you say: let's let me look at that mathematics and find out what are the mathematics causes two electrons to bounce off of each other, even if I turn off the electrical charge, so I could do that and now let me change that mathematical term. So now I have something that carries electrical charge, but if you take, two of them are am so he turned their charges off they'll pass through each other, so that puts things in the other quarter. and those things we take, we tend to call we put the sm in front of their name, so uh no lower quadrant. Here we have electrons in this now newly filled quadrant. We have select rot in the quad over here we head corks over here. We have squawks. So now we ve got this balance pie and that's basically what I understood as a graduate student and nineteen seventy five about this idea of super symmetry that it was going to fill up these two quadrant.

the pie in a way that no one had ever thought about before. So I was amazed that no one else at mit found is an interesting idea, So that's it led to my becoming the first person in enmity, to really steady super symmetry. This is nineties. five? Seventy six seventy seven if somebody said when I wrote the first phd thesis in the physics department on this idea, because I just I was drawn to the balance drawn to the symmetry. So what does artery? What does that for? Is this fundamentally a mathematical idea, so how much experimental and will have this? with a really interesting one. When you explore the word, the small, then you're in new book. Talking about approving it.

Is there a right that we'll also talk about there's the steam of kind of starting at exploring crazy ideas, first in the mathematics and then seeking for ways to experiment to validate them? Where do you put some supersymmetry in that it's closer than string theory? It has not yet been validated in some sense, as you mentioned einstein, so let's go there for a moment in our book, proving Einstein right. We actually do talk about the fact that albert einstein in nineteen fifteen wrote a set of equations, which were very different from Newton's equations describing gravity. These equations made some predictions that were different from newton's predictions and it actually made three different actions. One of them was not actually a prediction but oppose dixon, because it was known that mercury was not orbiting the sun and the way that newton would have told you, and so isis theory actually makes describes a mercury orbiting in a way that weight of the osbourne observed as opposed to what newton would have told you that won't one

is the second prediction that came out of the theory of general relativity, which einstein wrote in nineteen fifteen. Was that if you are, if so, let me describe an experiment and come back to it suppose that a glass of water and I filled it up- filled the glass up, and then I moved the glass slowly back and forth between our two I suppose it would appear to me like your face of moving, even though you aren't moving, I mean is actually and what's causing is because the light gets bit through the glass as it passes from your face to my eye, so einstein in his nineteen fifteen zero general tilney found out that gravity has the same effect on light as that glass of water. It would cause a of light to to now. Newton also knew this, but I einstein prediction was that lightwood been twice as much

and so his mathematical idea. Now? How do you actually prove it? You ve got to watch? Yes, sir. Just a quick points and that is the language you using he found out. I can say he did a calculations, it really The notion that the one of the most in one of the beautiful things about this universe is, you can do a calculation and an combined with some of that magical intuition. Physicists have actually predict what would be. I was I also the experiment to validate that's correct, so he found out in the in the sense that there seems to be something here and mathematically should bend. I crowd you been late, this amount, and so so, therefore, that

I think that could be potentially and then come up with an experiment that can be valid. It right and that's the way that actually modern physics, deeply fundamental. Modern physics is how it works, and you early. We spoke about the higgs boson, so why did we go looking for it? The answer is that, back in the late sixties, early seventies, some people wrote some equations and the equations predicted this. So then we went looking for it so and supersymmetry for a second there's. These things called I think this symbol, strange little grass, yes you're afraid to them, is revealing something like binary code. Yes underlying reality, you ever saw you described. What are they? What what? What are these beautiful little strange grass? Well,

first of all, the inquiries are an invention of mine. Together with a colleague named Michael Fox, in two thousand and five, we were looking at equations to the stores little bit more complicated and would take too long. It's explained all the details, but the reader's digest version is that we are looking these equations and we figured out that all the data in a certain As of equations, can be put in pictures and the pictures? What do they look like whether just they're just little balls, you have black balls and white balls. Those stand for those two buckets by the way that we talk about. In reality, the white balls are things that are like particles of light, The black balls are like electrons, and then they you can draw lives connecting these walls.

These lines are deeply mathematical objects, and I there's no way for me to. I have no physical model for telling you what the lines are, but as a map, if you are mathematician, I will use technical facing this- is the orbit of the representation of the action of the symmetry generators? Mathematicians will understand it. Nobody else in their right mind with so: let's not go there, so we, but we figured out that the data that was in the equations in the was a nice funny pictures that we could draw, and so that was stunning, but it also it was encouraging, because there are problems with the equations which I at first learned about in nineteen seventy nine. When I was down at harvard, I went out to caltech for the first time and working with a a great site. Is by the name of Josh wars. There are problems in the equations, we don't let us all, and so what things about solving problems that you don't have to solve.

That beating your head against the brick walls problematical philosopher how to solve it, What do you need to do? You need to change your sense of up of reference, your frame of reference, your perspective, so when I saw these funny pictures, I thought she that might be a way to solve these problems with equations that we don't know how to do. So that was for me, though I the first attractions is that I have now had an alternative language to try to attack a set of mathematical problems, but I I quickly realized that a this mathematical language was not known by mathematicians, which makes it pretty interesting, because now you have to actually teach mathematicians about a pizza for mathematics because that's how they make their living, and the great thing about working mathematicians, of course, is the rigor with which they examine. Ideas has only make your ideas better than

They start up. So I start working with a group mathematicians and is in that collaboration that we figured out tat these funny pictures head airport thing codes Marian, so You can't talk about what our correcting collage you're, so the simplest way to talk about air correcting codes, is first of all, to talk about digital information. Digital information is basically wings of ones and zeros they're caught bits. So now, let's imagine that I want send you some bits. Well, maybe I could show you pictures. Maybe it's rainy day or maybe the windows in your house, sir foggy so sometimes when I show you a zero, you might interpret it as one or other times. When I show you one, you might interpret it s a zero. So if that's the case that music,

I try to send you this data. It comes to you and corrupted, for so the challenge is: how do you get it to be uncorrupted in the nineteen forties computer science? Name hemming addressed the problem. How you reliably transmit digital information and when he came up with the with was a brilliant idea now the way to solve it is that you take the data that you want to send them once in your strings ones is your favorite name in the dump, more ones and zeros in, but you dumped them in in a particular pattern in this particular pattern is what a hamming code is all about. So it's an error, correcting code, because if you the percent the other and knows what the pattern supposed to be, they can forget when once get changed. Zero zero got one, so it turned out that our streets, Little objects that came from looking at the equations that we couldn't solve it.

But then, when you look at them deeply enough, you find out there stood they that they have ones and zeros bat buried in them. but even more stunningly that ones and zeros are not their randomly. They are in the pattern of air correcting coats, so this was at the astounding thing that when we first got this result and tried to publish it, it took us three years to convince other physicists that we weren't crazy. Eventually, we were able to publish it. I and this collaboration of mathematicians and other physicists, and so every since then. I have actually been looking at the mathematics of these objects, trying to still understand properties of the equations, and I want to understand the properties equations, because I want to be able to try things that are likely drugs or it exists just like a two step remove process of trying to get back to reality. So what would you say? Most beautiful property of these dink raw grass object

What do you think would by the way, the word symbols? What do you think of them? These simple grass? Are they objects her there ha ha. Showing people who work with mathematics like me are met, medical concepts. Are we often refer to them as objects really feel? Like real things, even though you can't see them or touch them, there's so much part of your interior life, but it is as if you could so. We often refer these things as objects, even the there's, nothing objective about them and what is a single group if represent insult okay, so the simplest of these grabs has to have one white ball and one black ball. That's that balance that we talked about earlier. Remember. We want to balance out the quadrants, while you can't do unless you have a black ball away, while so the surface of these objects looks like two little balls, one black

When Y connected by a single line- and what is talking about is, as I said, a deep mathematical property related to symmetry, you've mentioned the air correcting codes, but is there a particular beautiful property that stands out to you about this? Album The EU is fine. He ain't that a very yes very early on in the development, and yes, there is the more the craziest thing about these to me is that when you look at physics, and try to write equations where information gets transmitted, reliably. if you're in one of these super symmetrical systems with this extra cemetery that doesn't happen, assists an error. Correcting code present says it as if the universe says you don't retransmit information unless that there's something about an error correcting code. This to me is the craziest thing that I've ever heard,

we encountered in my research and it actually got me to wondering how this could come about, because the only place in nature that we know about error. Correcting codes is genetics and in genetics. We think it was evolution that causes air correcting. coach to be in genomes, and so does that mean that there was some kind of form of evolution acting on the mathematical laws of the physics of our universe is a very bizarre, and strange idea is something Wondered about from time to time since making these discoveries getting sick idea could be the mental or emergent throughout all the different kinds of systems

I don't know whether it's fundamental and I probably will not live to find out. This is going to be the work of probably some future, either mathematicians physicists figure out what these things actually mean. We have to talk a bit about the magical, the mysterious string theory from the pre string theory sure there's still maybe this aspect of it, which is there still for me from an outsider's perspective, this fascinating heated debate on the stat. string theory. Can you clarify this debate, perhaps articulating the various views and say where you land on it? So first one I doubt that I will be able to say anything to clarify clarify the debate around string theory for. for general audience party, reason is because string theory is has done something I've never seen. The irregular physics do

It has broken out into consciousness of the general public. Before we're finished, you see, string theory doesn't actually exists because when we use were theory, we know a particular set of attributes. In particular, it means that you have an overarching paradigm that explains what it is that you're doing. No such overarching paradigm exists worse in theory. What string theory is currently is an enormously large, mutually reinforcing collection of mathematical facts in which we can find no contradictions. We don't know why it there, but we can certainly say that without challenge now, just because you find a piece of mathematics doesn't mean that this applies to nature and in fact there has been a very heated debate about whether string theory,

it's some sort of hysteria among the community of theoretical physicists or whether it has something fundamental to say about our universe. We don't yet know the answer to that question. What those of us who study string theory will tell you are things like string. Theory has been extraordinarily productive in getting us to think more deeply, even about mathematics, that's not string theory, but the kind of mathematics that we've used to describe elementary particles. They have been spin awesome, string theory, and this has been going on now for two decades. Almost that I have allowed us, for example, to more accurately calculate the force, be

when electrons with the presence of quantum mechanics. This is not something you hear about in the public. There are other similar things. The kind of that kind of property I just told you about is what to call weak, strong duality and it comes directly from string theory. There are other things, such as a property called holography which allows one to it to take equations and look at them on the boundary of a space and then to know information about inside space without actually doing calculations there. This has come directly from string theory, so there are. There are no of number of

rec mathematical effects that we learned is string theory, but we take these ideas and look at math that we already know where we find suddenly we're more powerful. This is pretty good indication, there's something interesting going on with string theory itself since the early days of a powerful mathematical frame. That's what we have right now. What are the big first saw those for most people, probably that which, as you said, most general public would know actually was string. Theory is which is at the highest level, which is a fascinating fact. Well, string theory is what they do on the big bang theory right one. Can you maybe describe what is string theory and two? What are the open challenges? So what is string theory? Well that the simplest explanation I can provide is to go back and ask what a particles which is

the question. You first asked me: what's the smallest thing, yeah, what's the smallest thing, so particles? One way I try to describe particles to people a start. I want you to imagine a little ball. Then I want you to let the size of that ball shrink into. It has no extent whatsoever, but it still has the mass of the ball. That's actually what newton was working with when he first invented physics. he's the real inventor of the massive particle, which is this idea that underlies all of physics, so that where we started a mathematical construct that you get by taking a limit of things that you know. So what's a string were in the same analogy, I would say

Why would you start with a piece of spaghetti? So we all know what that looks like and now want you to let the thickness of the spaghetti shrink until it has no thickness mathematically, I mean the worse. This makes no sense mathematically. This actually works, and you get this mathematical object out. It has properties that are like spaghetti, it can wiggle and jiggle, but it can also move collectively like a piece of spaghetti. That is the mathematics of those sorts of. Drugs that constitute string theory and does the multi dimensional eleven dimension.

However, may imagine a more than four dimension. Is that a crazy idea to you is that is at them the stranger aspect, a string theory to not really, and also partly because of my own research. So early, we talk about a dent. These strange symbols that we ve discovered inside the equations. It turns out that, to a very large extent, a dangerous, don't really care about the number of dimensions they kind of Heaven, internal mathematical, consistency that allows them to be manifest in many different dimensions, and supersymmetry is a part of string theory. Then the same property. You would expect to be inherited by string theory. However, another little known fact, which is not in the public debate, is that there are actually strings that are only four dimensional. This is something that was discovered at the end of the eighties by three different groups of physicists working dependent. I and my friend, worn single, who were the universe. Email at the time were

would prove that there's mathematics that looks totally four dimensional and yet it's a string. There was a group in germany that use slightly different mathematics, but they found the same result and then there was a group at cornell who using yet a third piece of mathematics found the same so so def. The fact that extra dimensions is so widely talked about in the public is partly a function of how the public has come to understand, string theory and how it's the story has been told to them There are alternatives you dont know about. If forget, talk about, maybe experimental validation, and you hear the author of a recently published by proving I stand right there, the human story of it to the daring expedition to change how we look at the universe, You see echoes of the early days. A general activity in their nineteen tends to the more stretched out to strengthen

I just started. I do and that one reason why I was happy to focus on on. story of how, Instead, it became a global superstar. earlier, our discussion. We went over the the his history where, in nineteen fifteen he came up this piece of mathematics musa to do some calculations and then made a prediction, but making a prediction is not enough: someone's got to go out and measure, and so string theory is in that in between zone. Now, for I sign it was from nineteen fifteen to nineteen nineteen nineteen. Fifty he makes the Mix the correct prediction by where he made an incorrect prediction about the same thing and eight eleven, but he corrected himself. Nineteen, fifty and by

nineteen nineteen, the first pieces of experimental observational data became available to say yes, he's not wrong and by nineteen twenty two, then the argument that based on operation was overwhelming that he was not wrong. you describe what special general relativity, arduous briefly sure sense and would prediction eyes they made, and maybe maybe some or a memorable moment from the human journey of trying to prove this thing right. She was incredible right, so I'm very fortunate to have worked with a talented novelist who wanted to write a book that coincide with the book. I wanted to write about how size kind of feels. If your person, I guess it's actually people who do sides, even though that may not be able

It's everyone. So for me, I once right this book for a couple reasons I want at young people too, stan that seeming alien giants that live before them more justice here, as they are to get married, you get divorced to get they getting. Fourthly, do terrible things. They do great things there, people their didn't. People like you and so that part of telling the story allowed me to get that out there for both young people interested the scientists as well as the public, but the other part of the story is I wanted to open up sort of what what it was like now, I'm excited and so I will not pretend to be a great writer. I understand a lot about mathematics and I've even created my mathematics that you know is kind of a weird thing to be able to do, but

in order to tell the story? You really have to have an incredible master of the narrative and my that was my co author Cathie pelletier? Who is a novice we saw. We formed this conjoined brain. I used to call us she used to call us professor higgins and eliza doolittle. My express offers is that we work and joint brave to tell the story and it allowed. So what are some magical moments to me? The first magical moment in telling the story was looking at albert einstein. In his struggle, because, although we regard him as a genius, it's a fit and nineteen eleven he actually made an incorrect predictions about bending starlight and that's actually, what set the astronomers off in nineteen fourteen. There was an eclipse. and by various accidents of war and whether in all sorts of things that we talk about the book? No,

make the measurement if they have made the measurement? It would have disagreed with his nineteen eleven prediction because nature only has one answer, and so you, then you see how fortunate he was there warmer in bad weather and accidents in transporting equipment stopped any measurements from being made, so he corrects will suffer ninety fit but the astronomers already out there trying to make the measurement so now he gives them a different number and it turns out that's the number that nature agrees with, so it give you a sense of this is a person struggling with something deeply and it, although his deep inside led him to this, it is the circumstance of time place, an accident but through which we view him, and it could the story

it could have turned out very differently where first, he makes a prediction: the measurements only made in nineteen fourteen. They disagree with his prediction, and so what would the world view him as while he says professor who made this prediction that didn't get it right? Yes, so the fragility of human history is illustrated by that story. In this one of my favorite things, you also learn things like in their book. The eclipses and watching eclipses was a driver of the development of science in our nation when it was very young, in fact, even before we were a nation, turns out, they were citizens or citizens of this would be country that were going out trying to measure eclipses so some fortune, some misfortune effects.

the progress of science, especially with ideas as to me, at least, if I put myself back in those days as radical as general relativity is. First, can you describe It's ok, briefly, were generosity is an yeah. If you could you just take a moment of the airport, herself in her shoes in they occur in academic researchers. Scientists of that time, and what is this theory, what is trying to describe about our world? It's trying to answer the thing that left isaac, newton, puzzled,. Newton says Gary magically goes from one place to another. He doesn't believe it by the way he mills s not right, the mathematics is so good that you have to say well I'll, throw my qualms away, because

use it. That's all we used to get for a man from the earth. The moon was that mathematics. So I am one of those scientists. I've seen this and if I thought deeply about it may be, I know that newton himself was a comfortable. I think the first thing I would hope that I would feel is gee. This is young kid out there who has an idea to feel in this whole that was Lee left with us by sir Isaac Newton. That would, I hope, would be my reaction, I have a suspicion, I'm I'm kind of a mathematical creature- I was four years old when I first decided the size was what I wanted to do with my life, and so, if my personality back then was like it is now, I think it's probably likely I would want to wanted to have steadied his mathematics. What was a piece of mathematics that he

using to make this prediction, because he didn't actually create that mathematics that mathematics was created a roughly fifty years before he lived he's the person who harnessed it in order to make a prediction. In fact, he had to be taught this mathematics by a friend, so this is in our book. So putting myself in that time I would want to like that. I think I feel excitement. I would want to know what the mathematics is and then I would want to do the calculations myself, because one thing that physics is all about is that it ought to take any base were for anything it's you can do it. Yours, It does seem that mathematics is a little bit more tolerant, radical ideas or mathematicians or people who love

and beauty in mathematics? Why all the? Why questions have no good answer for lemme ask? Why do you think Einstein never got the nobel prize for general relativity? He got it for the photoelectric effect. That is correct. Well, there. First of all the that's something that is misunderstood about the nobel prize in physics, the nobel prize in physics, is never given for purely giving for purely proposing an idea. It is always given for proposing an idea that has opted baseness, or so he could not get the nobel prize for either special relatively nor generality, because the provisions that Alfred nobel left for the award prevent that a but after it has been validated and not get it then, or no, yes, but remember the validation, doesnt really come onto the nineteen twenty, that's why they invented the second

nobel prize me grey green. You can get in second nobel prize for one of the greatest soul many recent visit. So let me let us be clear on this. The theory of general relativity had its critics even up until the fifties. So, if you hadn't, if we had, if the committee had wanted to give the prize for general activity, there were votes differs critics of general tilney up until the fifties I signed died in eighteen, fifty five. What what lessons drawn from from a story you turn the book general activity from the radical nature of the theory looking at the future string theory. Well, I think that the string fiercer, probably going to retrace pair

but it can be far longer more tortuous. In my opinion, string theory is such a broad and deep development that, in my opinion, when it becomes acceptable, it's going to be because of a confluence of observations, not going to be a single observation, and I have to tell you that so I gave a seminar here yesterday at mit, and it's it's an idea. I have about how string theory can leave signatures in the cosmic microwave background, which is of astro physical structure, and so if those kinds of observations are borne out, if perhaps other things related to the idea of supersymmetry point out, those are going to be the first powerful observation le based pieces of evidence that will begin to do what the eddington

expedition, did in eighteen, ninety, but who that may take several decades getting there will be no more prizes given for string theory, because data red eyes, it'll be you'll, be I think you will exceed normal human lifetimes them, but there are other prices, are given is something called the breakthrough prize. There's a russian immigration. russian, american emigre name, Urim mill Europe believes they started this wonderful prize collar, the breakthrough prize, it's three times as much venison deauville and it gets word every year, and so something like one of those prizes is likely to be garnered at some point far earlier than a nobel award. Jumping around, if you topics, while you were caltech you ve gotten to interact, I believe with

Finally, I have to ask yes, Sir Richard. we do you have any story is this stand on your memory of that? I have a fair number of stories, but I'm not prepared to tell them they're, not all politically correct, to say, but let me just say I'll say the following: richard feynman: if you've ever read some of the books about him in particular, there's a book called, surely you're joking, Mr Feynman there's a series of books that starts with surely you're joking, mr fine, and I think the second, maybe something like what you care, what they say or something I mean the titles are all their three of them. When I read those books? I was amazed at how accurately those books betray them.

and that I interact him. He was irreverent. He was fine, he was deeply is intelligent. He was deeply human and those books tell that story very effectively, even just those moments. How did they affect you as a physicist where one of the well it's funny, because one of the things that I didn't hear fine and say this, but one thing that is repute will reap port it that he said If you're in a bar stool edifices- and you can explain to the guy on the barsoom next to you, what you're doing you don't understand what you're doing and there's a lot of that that I think is correct that

that when you truly understand something as complicated as string theory, when it's in it's fully formed final development, it should be something you could tell to the person in the barstool next to you, and I that's something that affects the way I do science. Quite frankly, it also affects the way I talk to the public about science. I I it's one of the sort, my marches, that I keep deeply and try to keep deeply before me when I appear in public fora speaking about physics in particular, and science in general. It's also something that isi said in a different way. He he he said he had these two different formulations. One of them is when the inter simple is, god speaking and the other thing that he said was that what he did, what he did in his work

was simply the distillation of common sense that you still down to something, and he also said you make things the simplest possible, no simpler. So all of those things, and certainly this attitude for me first sort of seeing this was exemplified by being around. we find it so in all your work, your always kind of searching for the simplicity for clearly Ultimately, I am you. serve dumb president Barack obama's council of advisers in science and technology for seven years? Yes, for seven years with Eric schmidt in Several other billion people met Eric for the first time in ninety in two thousand and nine when the council was called together? Yes, pictures of you, narrow and there's a bunch of brilliant people who kind of looks amazing. What was that experience like being called upon that kind of service?

so let me go back to my father. First of all, I earlier mentioned that my father serve twenty seven years in the: u s: army, starting in world war, two went off in the nineteen forty two, forty three to fight against the fascist. He was part of the supply corps that are supplied general pattern as the tanks rolled across western europe pushing back the forces of nazi ism to meet up with a higher russian, in comrades, who were pushing the russian in pushing the nazis are starting a stalingrad, and you know this. You know that war is actually a very interesting upset piece of history to know from both sides can here in america we typically don't, but I've actually study history. Isn't it psyche, no sort of a whole store, and on the russian side with honour the americans, we weren't taught them I know I know I have many many russian friends and we ve had this.

I recently had the occasion of this fascinating, but you know, like general Zhukov, for example, was something that you wouldn't know about when you might not know about a patent but you're so you're getting You cough or ruckus soft sky. I mean there's a whole list of names that I have learned in the last fifteen or twenty years. Looking at the second world war, so yeah father said was, in the midst of that probably one of the greatest worry wars in the history of our species, and so the idea of service comes to me essentially from that example So in two thousand and nine, when I first got a call from from a nobel laureate. Actually in my men, biology, Harold farmers, donnerwetter india

and I got this email message and he said he needed to talk to me, and I said: okay, fine, we can talk, got back big estate. I didn't hear from him. We went through several cycles of this, sending the message able to talk to you and then never can And finally, I was on my way to give a physics presentation at university of florida, gainesville and just stepped off a plane and my mobile fallen off and it was Harold, as I said Harold, why do you keep sending me messages that you want to talk but you never call- and he said well, I'm sorry things have been hectic and that at at epa and then he said, if you were offered the opportunity to serve on the us president's council of advisors on science and technology. What would be your answer, but I was amused at the formulation of the question here because there clearly isn't the purpose of why the question

that's that me. But then he made a curtain. He wasn't joking and literally may one of the few times. In my life my knees went weak and I had to hold myself up against the wall, so they didn't follow her. I doubt if most of us who have been the beneficiaries of the benefits of this country when, given that kind of opportunity could say now- and I know I certainly couldn't Satan I was frightened out of my wits because I had never, although I have my

My career in terms of policy recommendations is actually quite law. It goes back to the eighties, but I had never been called upon to serve as an advisor to president of the united states and it was very scary, but I did not feel that I could say no cause. I wouldn't be able to sleep with myself at night, seeing you know that I chickened out or whatever, and so I took the plunge and we had a pretty run, and there are things that I did in those seven years that I have, which I am extraordinarily proud of. One of the ways I I tell people is: if you've ever seen, that television cartoon called schoolhouse rock. Is this one story about how

it'll becomes a law and I've kind of lived that I there are things that I did that have now been codified in us law. Not everybody gets a chance to do things like that in life. What do you think is the yeah science and technology. Special him american politics in a we haven't, had a president? Who is it junior scientists. I would is the role of a president. Like president obama, in understanding the latest ideas in science and tech. What was that experience like well, first of all, I've met other presents beside president obama. He is the most extraordinary person that I've ever encountered, despite the fact that he went to harvard when I think about president obama, I he is a deep mystery to me in the same way, perhaps at the university of Minnesota April. I don't really understand how that constellation of personalities

it could have. Personality traits could come to fit within a purse single individual, but I saw them for seven years. I'm convinced that I wasn't seeing fake news. I was seeing real data Just an extraordinary man, and one of the things that was completely clear, was that he was not afraid and not intimidated to be in a room of really smart people. I mean really smart people that he was completely cough, In asking some of the world's greatest experts, what do I do about this problem and it wasn't that he was going to just take their answer, but he would listen to the advice and that to me was explored Mary as a set up in around other executives and I've never quote one quite like him he's an extra mary learner this? What I observed and not just about science,

here's a alive, internalizing information in real time. But I've never seen in a politician before even in extraordinarily complicated situations, even scientific idea, scientific or non signed, a complicated ideas, don't have to decide Forget it, but I have like they had seen him in real time. Process complicate ideas with a speed that was stunning effect. He shot the entire council. I mean we were all stun at his capacity to be presented with complicated ideas and then to wrestle with him and internalize them and then come back more interesting enough. Come back with really good questions to ask? I've noticed this in an area that I understand more of artificial intelligence. I've seen him integrate information about artificial intelligence and then come on.

with these kind of richard feynman like insights. That's exactly right and that's that, as I said, those of us who have been in that position, it is stunning to see it happen because you don't expect it yeah it. He takes what for a lot of sort of grudge Please take that for years in particular topic gauges. Does it in a few minutes is never grow. Naturally,. You've mentioned that you would love to see experimental validation of superstring theory before you before I shuffle off this mortal coil which, the poetry of that reference made me smile. When I saw you know people who actually misunderstand that, because it's not what it doesn't mean, what we generally take it to mean colloquially, but it's such a beautiful expression. is this from the hamlet to be or not to be a speech which I still don't know what that abortion to so many depredation anyway, at the wheel,

exciting problems in physics, they're, just within our reach of understanding. We solve the next few decades that you may be able to see. So in physics, you limited it to physics, physics, mathematics, that this kind of space of problems that fascinate a well the one that looks on the immediate horizon like we're going to get to is quantum computing and that's gonna if we actually get there. That's gonna be extraordinarily interesting I think that a fundamentally problem of theory, or is it now in the space of engineer, isn't especially engineering. I was not accuse station issue may know- microsoft- has this research facility, santa Barbara. I was another couple of months in my capacity as vice president metaphysical society. And I got it. You know I had some things that were like lectures and they were telling me what they were doing and assure sounded

They knew what they were doing and the thing were close to major breakthroughs. Yeah really exciting, possibility there, but the back the hamlet. Do you ponder mortality, your own mortality know my mother died when I was eleven years old. And so I immediately knew what the end of the story was for all of us. as a consequence, I've never never spent a lot of time. Thinking about death. It'll come in his own good time and their resorted to me. The job of every human is to make the best and most of the time. that's given to us in order not for our own selfish gain, but to try to make this place a better place for someone else. And on the way of life, why do you think we are? I have no idea. No I'd. Never even word

for me, I have an answer: a local answer, the apparent I for me, was because I'm supposed to do physics by it's funny because There are so many other quantum mechanics. Can possibilities in your life, such as me, You're, not astronaut, for example, as you know that I see well like like einstein and the vicissitudes that prevented the nineteen fourteen measurement, who starlight bending the universe, is constructed in such a way that I didn't become an astronaut which would have for me, I would have faced the worst choice in my life, whether whether I would try to become a national or whether I would try to do theoretical physics. But these dreams are born when I was four years old simultaneously and so

I can't imagine how difficult the decision would have been The universe hub, John, that one not only that one could into many one it helped me. I ll. Allow me to pick the right back. Is there a day in your life? You could re live because image we happy what they would that be. If you could see, that being a fear aquifers. This is like having christmas every day at that I have lots of joy in my life. the moment of invention moments of ideas. Revolution.

And yes, the only thing that exceed them are some family experiences like when my kids were born in that kind of stuff, but they're pretty high up there, while halsey a better way to end a gym. Thank you so much as a huge honor talking today. This worked out better than I thought glad to hear, thanks for listening to this conversation with as james gates, Jr, and thank you to our presenting sponsor cash, app, download it and use code. Legs, podcast, you'll get ten dollars and ten dollars will go to first, a stem education nonprofit that inspires hundreds of thousands of young minds to learn and to dream of engineering a future free enjoy. This podcast subscribe on youtube

I started an apple pie. Guest support rampage can connect with me on twitter and now let me leave you with the words of wisdom from the great albert einstein for the rebels. Among us, unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Thank you for listening and hope to see next time. The.