The following is a conversation with Carl frist in one of the greatest neuroscientist in history, cited over two hundred forty five thousand times known for many influential ideas in brain imaging, neuroscience and theoretical. Your biology, including especially the fascinating idea of the free energy principle for action and perception, Carl's mix of humor brilliance and kindness to me, are inspiring and captivating. This was a huge honour and a pleasure. This is the artificial tells his pack asked the enjoy subscribe on you to review with five stars and papa cast support. Unpatriotic are simple connected me until or a lex friedman spelled fr id a man as usual, or do a few minutes of as now and never any ads in the middle. That can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. This show is presented

cash up, the number one finance app and the appstore when you get it use called luck. Spike asked catch up. Let's you said my friends by bitcoin and invest in the stock market with as little as one dollar, this catch up a lousy, send and receive money. Digitally. Let me mention a surprise, in fact related to physical money of all the currency in the world. Roughly eight percent of it is actual physical money if the other? Ninety two percent of money only exists digitally so again, if you get cash out from the app store google play and use the code lux podcast, you get ten dollars and cash app will also, They turned out the first on organ donation that is helping to advance robotics stem education for young people around the world, and now he is my conversation with Carl

kristen so the human brain do we understand from the low level of your communication to the functional level too. The to the highest. Well, maybe the psychiatric disorders level or was certainly in a better position than we were censure here. How far we ve got to go, I think, is almost an hour answerable question. So you'd have to set the pace

it is the out what constitutes understanding? What level of understand you want? I think we ve made enormous progress in terms of broad brush. Principles am whether that affords a detail: cartographer iii of the functional matter, the brain and what he doesn't right down to the micro secretary in the neurons. That's probably out of reach of the present time so the hocker face a mapping, the brain. Do you think mapping of the brain, the detailed perfect imaging of it does that get us. closer to understanding of the mind of the brain, so how far does it get us if we have the perfect cartographer the brain, I think there are no bounds and that's a really interesting question you and it would it I'm in the sort of scientific career you'd pc with you, believe that knowing every dendritic

action. Every sort of microscopic synaptic structure right down to the molecular level was gonna give you the right kind of information to understand the computational matinee, then you choose to be microscopist can deal with damn studied little the cubic millimetres. A brain for the rest of your life On the other hand, you were interested in holistic, actions and asia, function that a mayor of the sort that aid near a psychologist would understand. You study, brain lesions and strokes, yonder looking at the whole person. So again it comes back to What level do want understanding? I think, their prince what reasons not to go too far? If you commit to a view of the brain as a machine, that's performing a form of influence and representing things

there are the that understanding, that level of understanding is necessarily cast in terms of probability densities and an ensemble densities. Distributions I want that tells you is that you don't really want to look at the atoms. Do understand the thermodynamics of of probabilistic descriptions for how the brain works. So I personally wouldn't look at the molecules, or indeed the single neurons, in the same if I wanted and understand the thermodynamics of some not equally steady state of a gas, so an active material, I wouldn't spend my life looking at the the individual molecules are constitute down some odd looking back to bed On the other hand, if you go to course, grain you're gonna miss some basic canonical principles of connectivity and architectures.

I am thinking here am this colloquial, but this current excitement about high field magnetic resonance, imaging and seven tests that why well it gives us for the first time, the tuned to looking at the brain in action. at the level of a few millimetres that distinguish between different layers of the cortex. That may be very important in terms of them. evincing generic principles, of course conical mica circuitry than a replicated throughout the brain. The mattel something fundamental about message passing in the brain and these density dynamics of ammonia, wrote all somebody popular and dynamics under I taught the brain function so some between a millimeter meta, lingering forbid under and the big questions. If you allow me, what do you use the most beautiful or surprising, characteristic of the human brain

and I think it's hierarchical and recursive aspect is recurrent aspect the structure of the actual representation of power of the brain wife, one speaks to the I was actually answering in Adele minded wave from the point of view of purely a matter me and structural aspects. I mean There are many marvellous organs in them in the body that take your liver, for example. Here without it, you wouldn't you, wouldn't they ran for very long, and it does some beautiful, delicate by chemistry and homeostasis, and eu evolved with a finance that would easily para the brain, but he doesn't have a beautiful now to make has a simpler to me, which is attractive inimitable sense, but it doesnt have that crafted structure. Of sparse connectivity, and that recurrence not specialization. The brain has, is he said aloud interesting terms here said the recurrence, the sparse city, but you also said

by saying hierarchical so was I had never thought of our brain as hierarchical it was sort of ios that is just like a giant mess or interconnected. The mess was very different. To figure anything out. But in what sense do you see the brain as hierarchical? Or I see it is not a magic soup earlier, which of course is what I used to think when I was before I studied medicine and the like, and so there are a lot of those terms imply. each other, so hierarchy is, if you just think about the nature of a hierarchy. How would you lee build one and what you'd have to do is basically carefully removed. The right connections that destroy the I'm completely connected soups.

You might have in mind, so a hierarchy is in and of itself defined by sparse and particular connectivity structure, I'm not committing to any particular form of hierarchy, your senses, there is some o absolutely up in virtue of the fact that there is a spar connectivity not necessarily of a caused. It's opposite of a constant thought, so they are, ah it is demonstrable, is so and that they've far further apart, two parts of the brain are the less likely they are to be white. I had the honour to possess. Exert all processes, neuron processes lit directly ag, communicate what message or messages from one part of the brain, the other part of the So we know there's a sparse connectivity

Furthermore, on the basis of an anatomical connectivity and traces studies, we know that that has as that sparsity under writes a hire, a high rock and restructured sort of connectivity. That might be best understood like a little bit like an onion. the other. There is, and am a concentric sometimes referred to his centripetal by people like Marcel muslim Iraq organization to the brain, so you can think of the brain ass in a rough sense like an onion All the sensory information and all the effort, outgoing messages that supply commands to your muscles ought to Europe. Secrete reopens come from the surface, so there's a massive exchange interface with the world out there on the

surface and that underneath these visits a little lad, let em sits and looks at the exchange on the surface and then under the fattening. Lad right the way down to the very centre of the deepest part of the onion. That's what I'm by the hierarchical organization, there's a discernible structure defined by the spastic of connection the lens, the architecture, hierarchical structure? That tells us a lot about the kinds of represent Patience and messages occur, match up early question is this is about the representation capacity or is it about the not may? Well one underwrites, the other. If one, this simply thinks of the brain is a A message passing miss china, a process that is in the service of doing something, then the the circuitry and connectivity that shape that message passing also dictated

function, so you done a lot of amazing workin, lotta directions so worthless Look at one aspect: that of looking at the brain and trying to study this onion structure What can we learn about the brain by imaging it, which is one way to serve look at the anatomy of it, broadly speaking, what one of them, as of imaging but even bigger. What can we learn about it right so well, most making human near imaging. I am You might see signs generals that speaks to the way the brain works measures paid activity over time. So we are the first thing to say the where we're effectively looking at fluctuations in new runners France's usually in response to some sensory importer. Some instruction, I'm some task

not necessarily listened with interest and is looking at the brain. In terms terms, resting state endogenous are intrinsic activity, but crucially, every point? Looking at these fluctuations either induced or intrinsic in the directive? It is an understanding limit to level so and normally people would recourse to two principles: the brain of an organization that are complementary, one, functional specialization or segregation. So what does that mean? It simply means that there are put certain parts of the brain that may be specialized for certain kinds of processing near, for example, visual motion, our ability to recognize or to perceive movement in the visual world and furthermore, that specialized processing may be spatially or anatomically segregated

leading to functional segregation, which means that if I were to compare your brain activity during a period of static, viewing a static image and then compare that to the responses. The fluctuations in the brain, when you were exposed to a moving image, say a flying. Bird Eric we'd expect to see and restricted segregated differences in activity, and those are basically the hot spots that you see in the in sceptical parametric maps that test for the significance of the responses that are circumscribed. So now, basically with talking about some people of perhaps unkindly kindly colder and neo cartographer, this is a phenomenon jean old, augmented by me.

they near imaging, basically finding blobs or bumps on the brain that do this, or do that. I'm trying to understand the cartographer of the functional specialization to how much, how much is there such systems? such a beautiful set of ideas to strive for, though we we humans. Scientists would like this to hope that there is a beautiful structure to this work. Like you said there, segregated regions that are responsible for the different function. How much hope is there to find such regions There was a look at the progress of study. the brain, I think enormous progress has been made in the past twenty or thirty is young the is beyond incremental at the advent of brain imaging the very notion of functional segregation was just a hypothesis based upon a century

If not more of careful near, I called you looking at people who had lost via insult or promoting brain injury, particular parts brain and then say well, they can't do this or they can't do that. For example, losing the visual cortex and not be able to see or using losing particular parts of the visual cortex, saw, regions known as the five or the middle temporal region. An empty I noticing that they selectively could not see moving things, and so that created the the hypothesis that perhaps movement processing, visual move oppressing was located in this functionally segregated area, and you could then put

and put invasive electrons in animal models and say yes, indeed, we connect site activity here we can form receptive, fails at a sensitive to or defined in terms of visual motion. But at no point could you exclude the possibility that everywhere else in the brain, also very interested in visual motion by the way I apologize to interrupt was a tiny little attention. had animal models, just the attic curiosity. From your perspective, how different is the here brain vs, the other animals in terms of our ability to study the brain, while clearly the far further away you go from a human brain, but that the greater the differences, but not not as a remarkable as you might think, as a p well. She was their level of approximately

into the human brain depending upon the other, the kinds of questions that they want to answer. So, if you're talking about sort of canonical principles of microcircuitry, it might be perfectly okay to look at a mouse. Indeed, you could even look at flies: If, on the other hand, you wanted to look at the final details of organization of visual cortex and they want He too, these are designated son of patches of cortex. The male may do different things into do: probably want to use a primate that looked a little bit more like a human, because also ethical issues in terms of the use of non. human primates too young, to answer questions about the about human anatomy I think most people assume that most of the important principles are conserved in a continuous way near from right from not yes, worms right.

but it's better to tee. Didn T dear me! So now returning to says that that was the early. So I did studying the that, the real functional reaches of the brain base. If there's some damage to it to travel in further authors, part of the brain might be somewhere responsible for this type of function. So what Where does that leave us? What are the next steps beyond that right, I am detaches reverse a come back to your sort of notion that the brain soup- and that was actually a very prominent idea, one pointer notions such as She's lore of mass action am inherited from the observation that for certain animals, if you just took out full of the brain it didn't matter where took his spoonfuls out. They always showed the same kinds of deficits at your age.

Was very difficult to infer functional specialization, pure and the base basis of lesion deficit studies, but once we have the opportunity- to look at the brain or lighting up in its its literally it sort of excitement. Nero m excitement when looking at this verses that What was, I would say? Yes, indeed, these functions especially Responses are very restricted. A middle way air or there over there. If I do this, then this part of the brain lights up and that became doable than the early ninetys. If, in fact, shortly before, with the advent of on emission tomography and then functional magnetic resonance imaging came along in the early nineties and since that time there has been an explosion of discovery, refinement confirmation,

yeah there are people who believe that it's all in the anatomy. If you understand the anatomy, then you understand the function at some level and many many hypotheses were predicated on a deep understanding of the anatomy and connectivity? but they were all confirmed and taking much further. With near imaging. So that's what I'm by we made an enormous amount of progress in in this century. Indeed, in and in relation to the previous century. By looking at these functions, an active responses, but that wasn't the whole story so but of near for knowledge aid, but funding, bumps and hope spots in the brain that this or that the big question was accosted the functional into russian? The? How all of these reasons, specific responses were orchestrated how they were distributed? How did they relate to distribute a pressing, and indeed representations in the book

so then you turn to the more challenging. Two of them migration, the connectivity and then we come back to this beautiful, sparse, recurrent, hierarchical connectivity. That seems characteristic of the brain and probably not many other organs. and but nevertheless, we'll come back to this in this challenge of trying to figure out how everything is integrated. But what's your feeling was the general consent, How we moved away from the magic soup view the brain death, so there is a deep structure to that. and then maybe a further question. He says people believe that the structure is most of it that you can really get at the core of the function by just deeply entertain structure. Where do use said on that? Do I think he's got some I wish her yes, yes now, as is the worthy pursue of going now of of studying

who imaging and all the different methods to actually study now absolutely destroyer, So I guess I'm just not a you. You you were accusing me, raising doubts about whether that you introduce one there, which is deep, which is interesting and because deep the millennial equivalent of hierarchical? Sir? If you put a deep in front of anything If you got hurt, you very been a real study trendy, but you as you're also implying a hierarchical architecture, so unless it is a depth with which is for me, the the beautiful thing, that's right, the the word deep kind of yup exactly it implies higher gee, I don't even think about that that indeed the implicit meaning of the word deep is hierarchy here now so deep inside the union is the center of your so put, maybe briefly if he can paint a picture the kind of methods of new emerging, maybe the

history, which you are a part of the know from statistical parametric mapping and what what's out there. That's interesting for people may be outside the field due to understand of what are the actual methodologies of looking inside the human brain right. Whether you can answer that question from two perspective, basically the modality yellow kind of signals? Are you measuring and they can range from and let's limit ourselves to test imaging based, not invasive techniques. So you said you got brain, scanners and bread scanners. Can I the measure, the structural attributes, amount of water and the amount of fat or the amount of iron in different parts of the brain, he can make lots of influences about the structure of the organ of the sort that you might have an abuse of an x ray but you're, a very nuanced x ray that is looking at this kind of problem. That kind of property, so looking at the anatomy, not evasively, as would be the first sort of near imaging, but people Michael.

To employ. Then you move on to the kinds of measurements that reflect dynamic function, the most prevalent of those from the two camps. You ve got these metabolic sometime. Hemodynamic blood related signals, so the metabolic and all he met a dynamic signals, a basic proxies for elevated activity and message passing and and earned. dynamics in particular parts, the brain? Characteristically though they time constance of these he measured, call metabolic responses to new activity a much longer than the directive activity itself, and this is this is referring. Forgive me for the donkey but this will be referring to bloodroot like the flow of blood, absolutely says, there's a tunnel

it is a ton of blood vessels in the brain. So, but what's the interaction between a flow of blood the the function of the new neurons answer. Is there an interplay there or not? amber interplay accounts both with several careers of world renowned cyclical cats? That's a little, so notice, Noora vascular. Coupling is exactly what you said is how it- a neural activity, the neural infrastructure, natural message passing that we think underlies our capacity to perceive and act How is that, coupled to the vascular responses that supply the energy for that euro presses So there's a delicate web of large vessels altruism veins that gets progressively fight and in detail until it refuses at microscopic level,

the machinery were little neurons line that going back this sort of onion perspective. we were told him before using the analysis is a metaphor for a deeper rocco structure, but also, I think, it's just an an atomic bomb and undertake a useful metaphor. All the action, all the heavy lifting of neural computation is done on the surface said the brain and then the interior of the brain is constituted by fatty, wise, essential, axonal processes that are enshrouded by mile in sheets, and these give the when you dissect them. They look fatty and white and it's called white matter as opposed to the actual near appeal, which does the computation constituted largely by neurons. That's knows grey matter, so the

grey matter is a a and a surface or a skin that sits on top of this big ball. Now we are talking magic soup, but a big ball of connections like spaghetti very carefully structured with sparse connectivity that preserve this deep, hierarchical structure, but all the action takes place on the surface on the cortex of the and that means that you have to supply the right amount of blood flow, the right amount of nutrients, which is rapidly absorbed and used by neural cells. They don't have the same capacity. The your leg muscles would have I am basically spend their energy budget and then came back later so what kinda thing about three broad metabolism? metabolism. Is it really needs to be driven in the moment? Which means you basic have to turn on the taps, so if

There's lots of neural activity in one part of the in a little patch of a few millimetres. Even less possibly, really do have to water that piece of the garden now and quickly, and that by quickly I mean within a couple of days, and so that contains a lot of that. That has the imaging could tell your story of what's happening out seriously, but it is slightly compromised in terms of the resolution, so the the deployment of these little micro vessel, that watered water, the garden to enable the activity to two and then your activity to play? the special resolution is an order of a few millimetres, am and crucially The temporal resolution is the order of a few seconds, so you can't get right down and dirty into the actual spatial and temporal scale of neuronal activity in and of itself to do that. You'd have to turn to the other big image of Madame

which is the recording of electromagnetic signals as a generated in real time. So here the temporal bandwidth, if you like, all the time, the limit on the temper resolution and is ink credibly small talk about new nanoseconds milliseconds, a menu you can get into and the phasic fast responses that is in and of itself the neural activity. And I start to see the succession or cascade of hierarchical current message, passing evoked by particular stimulus, but the problem is you're. Looking at electromagnetic signals that have passed, an enormous amount of magic, super spaghetti of connectivity and through the scope and the skull, and it's become spatially very diffuse, is very difficult to know where you are so. You ve got this sort of catches,

you too, you can, I use and imaging without it tells you with a millimetres which part of the brain is acting, it had done a when all you ve got it, electromagnetic e g m e g and set ups tell you to within a few milliseconds when thought something has responded, beard aware, so you ve got these. two complementary measures, either indirect via the blood flow or direct via the elect. my good signals caused by neural activity. These are the two big measuring devices and then second level of respect. As your question what what are you from the outside? What are the big ways of of using this this this technology, so once you ve chosen the kind of mere emerging they want to use to answer you set questions, and sometimes it would have to be both then you ve got a whole raft of analyses,

I'm says, analyses usually that you can bring to bear in order to answer questions or address you hypotheses about those data, an interesting they. They both fall into the same two comes. We talk about reform near by this dialectic between specialization integration, differentiation and integration. So it's the cartographer, the blue, biology, analyses by budget and probably shouldn't wise, but just the heard, a fun word, the blood than abolishing lousy. If it's the homage ism, which means the study of blobs, said nothing you being a witty and humorous, or is there an actual, does the word blah biology ever appear in a textbook somewhere, eight would appear in a popular book. It would not appear in a worthy specialist journal yeah. It's the fond word for the study of literally little blobs on brain Matt. Shy

evasions like the kind of thing that you'd see you're the newspapers on b, c, o b b c reporting the latest findings from from brain imaging, interesting, either The maths involved in that stream of analysis does actually call upon the mathematics of blobs so seriously that you called I'll catch you stakes and they have a lot of fancy names in mathematics, we'll talk, I'll buy your ideas in vienna. Do principle. I mean there's a echoes of blobs there when you consider serve, and it is so mathematically speaking. Yes, sir absolutely yeah. That's the only way I well different, circumscribed well defined. The EU entities have well informed the free energy point of view entities of anything but from the point of view of the union

Was this the cartography of area of the brain? These are the entities that constitute the evidence for this functional segregation. You have segregated dysfunction in this blob and it is not outside of the blob that that's basically the if you are a map maker of america you did not know it structure? The first thing we you doing constituting or creating a map would be to identify the cities, for example all the red mountains of other rivers. All of these Uniquely spatially localized mobile features, possibly topological features have to be placed somewhere, because that requires a mathematics of identify. What does a set city look like on a satellite image or what does a river look like? What does a mountain look like? What would it do your? What data features? Would it would evidence that

that particular tapia. That particular thing that you wanted to put on the map- and they normally are characterized in terms of literally these blobs, though they serve another way. Looking up at this, is that a certain statistical measure of the degree of activation crosses a threshold it in crossing threshold or in a spatially restricted part of the brain. It creates a blob. Then that's, basically, what cynical parametric mapping does it's basically and mathematically for nest, blah blah? ok, so those that gonna discoveries to methodologies for one is, temperately, noisy one, especially noise, and you kind of to play figure out what can be useful if it be great, if you can a comment I got has recently to spend a day at the accompanying on euro link that I use brain computer interfaces and there dream is while well there's a bunch of set of dreams.

by till one of them is to understand the brain, bicetre yvonne, you know, getting in their past the sole cause and effect we will getting in there be able to listen, communicate both directions. What are your thoughts about this? The future, this kind of as you brain computer interfaces, tb or two. Now, however, have a window or direct contact within the brain, to be able to measure some of the signals to build the send signals to understand some of them? functionality of the brain, ambivalent. My senses, ambivalent, serves a mixture of good and bad- and I acknowledge that freely and so the good bits of you just look at the legacy of that kind of reciprocal but invasive job, stimulation, I didn't painter complete picture has talking. bout said the ways we understand the brain pride in your imaging. It wasn't just leave a lesion deficits that is from the early working fat literally.

A hundred years and where was sitting at the institution virology, what was done by stimulating the brain of satan, I'm looking at how they responded either with them muscles over them. Salivation and imputing watts that part. The brain must be doing that by stimulating than a and I vote this kind of response then that tells me quite a lot about the functional specialization, so there's a long history of brain stimulation which in in his to enjoy a lot of attention nowadays them passivity, Oh, yes, absolutely no deep, brain stimulation for parkinson's disease is now standard treatment and also a wonderful vehicle to trying

I understand the neuronal dynamics underlie movement disorders like parkinson's disease and even interest in an transmit that matters. It's the magnetic stimulation stimulated with magnetic fields and will it work in people who are depressed, for example, quite a crude level of understanding what you're doing but and the other. There is historical evidence that these kinds of brute force interventions do change things they the hours a little bit like buying the tv recovery when the valves are working properly, but it still it works as though, or that you're there is a long history of brain computer interface, your pc, I am

I think it is a beautiful example of that it sort of carved out its own niche in it's own aspirations, and there have been enormous advances within limits and advances in terms of our ability to understand and how the brain. The embodied brain engages with the world. I am thinking here of sensory substitution org mentoring, all sensory capacities by giving ourselves extract ways of sensing than sampling the world, ranging from sort of trying to repair, base lost visual signals through to giving people completely new signal, so The one on rising most engaging examples of this is equipping people with a sense of magnetic fields. So you can actually give them magnetic senses that enable them to feel she say

tactile pressure around the tummy, where they are in relation to the to the to the magnetic field of the earth. Incredible and after a few weeks, they take it for granted. They integrated them by their simulators. In this new sensory information. Into the way that this feat literally feel their world, but now equipped with this sense of magnetic dick direction. So that tells you something about the brains, the potential to remodel to a m and it's plastic capacity to suddenly try to explain the sensory data at hand by augment hating or augmenting the or the sensory sphere, the kinds of things that they can measure. Clearly, that's purely well entertainment and an understanding another something that the other nature and the power of our brains.

Imagine the most bc. I is pitched at solving, am clinical and am human problems such as locked in syndrome such as Please europe or replacing lost sensory act passed is like blindness and and death deafness. So am I Then we come to the more on the net a part of my mandate as they have the sight of it. So I Don't want to be deflation, because much of my deflation comments, as probably large out of ignorance than the than than anything else met, are, generally speaking, the the bandwidth and the bit rates that you get from an brink of pewter interfaces. As we currently know, them were come out bits per second, so that would be like me. I'm only be

to communicate with any world or with you using very, very Very slow, morse code, It is not. in the e in even within an order of magnitude near what we actually need for a night. To realisation of what people aspire to they think about sort of curing people with paraplegia or replacing site. I'm despite heroic effort. It's some one has to ask: is there a lower bound on the kinds of recurrent Information exchange between a brain and some augmented artificial interface endemic

back to interesting way. When I was talking about before, which is the year, if you're talking about function in terms of inference type, is evil that later on in terms of the financial prince bahman the moment they may be fundamental, reasons to see him, not as the case we're talking about ensemble activity, we're talking about. Basically, for example, let's paint the challenge facing and brand compete terrific interfacing in terms of controlling another system that is highly and deeply structured, very relevant to our lives. Very nonlinear that rests upon the car I've known steady states and dynamics of the brain. Does the weather not so good?

a boy am imagine you had some very aggressive satellites that could produce signals that could perturbed some little parts of thee. Of the weather system and then what you're asking now is, can I meaningful get into the weather and check Jim meaningfully and make the weather spawned in a way that I wanted to get her back. Chaos control on a scale which is almost unimaginable, so the maid fundamental reasons why see. I asked might read about it in a science fiction, novel aspirational BC I may never actually work in the sense that to really be integrated and part of the system is

a requirement that requires you to have evolve with that system that you you're you. You have to be part of a very delicately structured, deeply structured dynamic some activity that is not like rewiring a broken computer or plugging in a peripheral interface, adapter It is much more like getting it to the weather patterns, or you come back to your magic soup is getting into the active matter and me. in fully relate that to the outside world, so there are enormous challenges that so, I think of that example- the, where there's a brilliant on ethical It's really interesting picture and it wasn't as negative as I thought it's assent. Saying this in my being here, We be challenging, including the law about the bandwidth and so on, I kind of so and just to follow disclosure. I come from the machine learning world, so my my

natural thought is the hardest It is the engineering challenge of controlling the weather, of getting those satellites up and running in and so on. they are, then. The rest is fundamentally the same approaches that allow you to be to win in the game of go, will allow you to actually play in this. Soup in this chaos I have every hope that Her machine learning methods all were helpless play in the soup as but perhaps see your aid. it is by our biology in the brain is just an incredible incredible system. That may be almost impossible to get in. But for for me, what seems impossible is, is the incredible mass of blood vessels, the also described without you know. also value the brain. You can't making a mistake you can damage. Things said to me that engineering challenge

nearly impossible? One of the things I was really impressed by had neuro link is just just talking two billion euro surgeons in their viruses. That dire it made me realize it, even though it seems impossible, family can do it it's. Some of these were class engineers that are trying to take it on so on. So I think The conclusion of our discussion here is of this part is, is basically that the problem is really hard, but hopefully not impossible. Absolute. If it's ok start with the basics, so you ve also formulated a fascinating principle. The theology principle, greed, maybe start at the basics, and what is the free energy principle will in fact be free energy principle, inherits a lot from The bill,

of these data. Analytic approaches to these very, dimensional. Time says you get get from the brain, so easy, seem to acknowledge that and in particular the analysis tools that try to address the other side which the function. Integration of the connectivity, Nancy's. On the one hand, but I should also acknowledge it inherits- are all of a lot from machine learning as well. So the fantasy principle am is just a formal statement that the the existential imperatives for any system that manages to survive in a changing world is can be cast. as I am an inference problem

in the sense that you can interpret the probability of existing as the evidence that you exist and if you come right down that problem of existence a difficult problem that he can use all amounts that has been developed for inference to understand and characterize the ensemble dynamics that must be in place. In the service of the inference? So technically what that means is, can always interpret anything that exists, virtue of being separate from the environment in which it exists as china. To minimize variation of energy if you're from the machine learning community, you will know that as a negative evidence no abound or a negative elbow which is the same as saying you're. Trying to maximize- or it will look as if

Your dynamics are trying to maximize thee. them to that which is the marginal likelihood or the editor it's for your own existence. That's basically the yard to the free energy principle of it, but even tickets are a small step backwards. He said, the existential imperative, there's a lot of beautiful poetic words here, but to put a crudely its. The fascinating idea of basically just of trying to describe if you're looking at a blob How do you know this thing is alive? What is it to be alive. What does it mean to be into exist, as so, you can look at the brain look parts of the brain are you. This is just a general principle applies to almost any any any systematic. It is the fascinating sir.

Philosophically, at every level, question and a methodology to try to answer that question. What does it mean to be alive? Yes, so that that that's a huge endeavour it's nice. It there's a lease, some from some perspective, a clean answer. Maybe we can talk about that optimization view of it. So what what's trying to be minimized maximize? Were a system that's alive? What is it tried to minimize right? You ve made a big move. fellow jets, her speculative eight begins, eve assumed that the things the thing exists pick the in a state that could be living on non living. So I may ask you why

What licenses you to say that something exists? That's why I use the word existential it's beyond living, it's just existence. So if you drill down onto the definition of things that that exist, then they have certain properties if you borrow the maths from non equilibrium, steady state physics that enable you to interpret their existence and in terms of this optimization procedure, since could you introduce word optimization? So what the free energy principle in it's sort of and most ambitious, but also most deflationary and simplest, says, is that if something exists, then it must by the mathematics of nonequilibrium, steady state.

exhibit properties that make it look as if it is optimizing, a particular quantity, and it turns out that particular quantity happens to be exactly the same as the evidence, low abounded machine learning or base a model, evidence in basin statistics or list a whole other list, To ways of understanding this this this key quantity, which is bound on surprise all self information, if you have information theory that are whole and there are a number of different perspectives on this country's this basic of the log probability of being in a particular state I'm telling the story as an honest and attempt to answer your question am answering it is if, as if I was pretending to be a physicist who was trying to understand the funding,

It's not non equilibrium and steady state, and I shouldn't really be doing that because the last time I was taught physics I was in my twenties, what kind of systems when you think about the fingerprints of what kind of systems eu imagining is more specific kind. A case study I mentioning a range of systems but ya at its simplest em as soon as single celled organisms, that can be identified from its economy, shorts environment, so that the added simply that that's basically what what I It was imagined in my head and he may ask well: is there any will how on earth. Can you even elaborate questions about the existence of a sing a single drop of oil, for example. You were, but there aren't

questions asked? Why doesn't the oil? Why doesn't the thing the interface between the drop of oil, that contains a night interior and the thing that is not the job of oil, which is the solvent in which it has emerged. How does that interface persist over time, why doesn't the oldest dissolve into solvent, so what special properties of the exchange between the surface of the oil drop and the external states, and which is the most, if you visit, say it would be the heat bath near you gotta you ve got her physical system an old sombre game with about ten stomachful, someone's gonna mix symbolic of atoms alex immersed in the hay path? But the question is: how did the heap of get there?

and why is it not dissolve lousy, maintaining itself exactly what actions? If any such a passing idea of a drop of oil, and I guess it would water, winds of water. So what precise play some line? Not so why not? Why not? And how do you, mathematically discrepancies, such a beautiful idea and also the idea of lake? Where does the thing, where does the drop of oil and gas and Where does it ass begin right, so you asking the questions and deepen in a non malarial hark cuts for what you can do use your site. This is a deeply any part of it, and can I just qualify mounds

by saying that, normally, when I'm asked this question, I answer from the point of view of a psychologist: we talk about predictive processing and pretty coding and an ear the brain as an empress machine, but you haven't asked me from that perspective. I'm answering from the point of view of a physicist, so you you are. The question is not so much why, but if it exists, what properties must display? So that's the deflation apart, the free underpants were printed. Png principle does not supply an answer as to why it saying if something exists, then it must display these properties that that's thick, the others of the thing that's on offer and it's so hams. These properties, eight must display an intriguing and have this, rachel glass. This is this: the sort of self evident sing glass that inherits on the fact that the very preservation of the boundary between the oil drop and not oil drop

requires and optimization of a particular function or functional. That's that defines the presence of the existence of this I order, which is why I started with existential imperatives, and it is in is a necessary condition for existence that this must occur, because the thing the boundary basically defines the thing that does not exist So it is that self assembly aspect is that Are you a hint of gas and ology, sometimes known as an auto polices in competition. Chemistry is self assembly, it's the at what what is it looks like. So how would you describe things that configure themselves out of nothing the where they clearly de market themselves from the states only soup in which they are immersed? So from the point of view of

computational chemistry, for example? You just understand that, as a configuration of a macro macromolecule to minimize it's free energy is democratic. Ravaging is exactly the same principle that we ve been talking about. The thermodynamic free energy is just the negative elbow it's the same, mathematical come construct, so the very emergence of existence, of structure, of form that can be distinguished from the environment or the thing that is not the thing ah necessitates the yoke the existence of an objective function that it looks as if it is minimizing it's funny. Free energy, minimise and so just to clarify China rub my my head around them so that the financial principle says that if something exists, these are the problems it should display. So what that means is we can just look look you can't you go into a soup

and there's no mechanism fears What doesn't give us a mechanism to find the things that exist. Is is that would it what's implying is being applied that you can kind of use it? he's to think about like study a particular system, as they did did. Does this exhibits these qualities, selection question the transit died have too. I have to return to your previous question about. What's the difference between having a non living things It was actually actually sizes yeah that maybe we can go. kind of drew a line and forgive me for the stupid questions you can't your line between living and existing. Is there an interesting serve farm distinction

actually yeah. I think there is, and so on your things do exist, grains of sand rocks on the moon, trees, and you are so all of these things and can be separated from the environment in which they are immersed and therefore the must, at some level be optimizing. Their free energy taking the sort of model. Evidence interpretation of this quantity that basically means that self evident sing. Another nice little twist of phrase here. Is that you are your own existence, proof young, statistically speaking, which I don't think I'm I said that somebody to, but I love that phrase and you are your own existence proof. Sorry, sir existentialist net is when at the thing about there were a few days.

yeah there's a beautiful line so did the step through too see a question about near. What's good for you along the following lines. First of all, you have to find what it means to exist which, down, as you rightly pointed out, you have to define what problematic properties must these states of something possess, Has it so it knows where it finishes, and then you write up that down in terms of fiscal independence is again spotty. Again, it's not what's connected or what's correlated a, what depends upon what is it what's not correlated and what doesn't depend upon something again. It comes down to the the deep structures

this is a high rock about the certainty that the structures that emerge from removing connectivity independency in this instance am basically being able to identify the surface of the oil drop from the water in which it immersed and when you do that, use to you start to realize, while they are actually false, such kinds of states in a any given universe that contains anything the things that are internal to the surface, the things that are external the service and the surface in and of itself, which is why use a metaphor? A little single celled organisms has an entire next area and then at the surface of the cell, and that's mathematically. A mark of blanket the pause, I'm in awe of this concept that there's stuff outside the surface stuff inside the service in the service itself, the markov blanket has just done. the most beautiful kind of notion about trying to explore what it means to exist. Mathematically,

a body, as is the case, is the beautiful idea for came out of California cigarettes I changed my mind had taken over from the soil. what're you just talking about a surface about the monti outlines the surface saw this blanket. These blanket states that all this year that the. Because they are now defined in relation to these Independence is an and were you walk, can want different states. Internal black It extends states come ones can influence each other which cannot influence each other. You can now ply standard results that you'd find in non equilibrium, physics, so steady, state or Thermodynamic so high do dynamics, usually out of equilibrium, solutions and apply them to this partition and what it looks

like, as if all the norman normal gradient flows, that you would say so with any non equilibrium system applied, such a way that, to part with part of the market blanket and the internal states seem to be he'll climbing or during a graded descent on the same quantity, and that means the EU can now describe the very existence of this oil drop. You can write down the existence of this order in comes of flows, dynamics, equations of motion where the blanket states or part of them we call them active states and the entire. those states now seem to be other must be tried him. because, if the minimizing the same function, which is long probability of occupying lisbon, they state

It's interesting thing is: what would they be cold if you are tired described these things? So what we're talking about are in ten states extend states and blankets states. Now, let's carve the bank it states into two century states an active states. Operational aid has to be the case that, in order for this carving up into different sets of states to exist, the active states, the market Blanket cannot be influenced by the extent and states I already know that the internal states can't be influenced by the external states cousin the blanket separates them, so does that mean well means the active states. The intern states are now jointly not influenced by extant states. They only have autonomous dynamics. So now you ve gotta, pick of an oil job that has autonomy it has altered. the states it hasn't autonomous.

Since that there must be some parts of the surface of the old job that are not influenced. By the extent, and all the interior and together those two states in doubt, even a little I'll drop with autonomous states that look as if they are optimizing? there are very few free energy or that negative elbow that model evidence- and that would be an interesting intellectual exercise, and you could say if it even go into the realms of pants psyche is that everything that exists is implicitly making princess on self evident sing? Now we met the next move, but what about living things name? So let me ask you: what's the difference between an oil drop and a little tadpole or a little lover nor plankton?

the picture is painted, of an oil drop just immediately in a matter of minutes took me into the world depends on where you you just convince me. What made me feel like an all job is a living as soon autonomy system, but almost livingston. some services as a capable censored capabilities and acting capabilities and maintains think so what is it seen that and something that we traditionally think of us living system? that it could die or you can't a mortality among exactly sure, I'm not sure what the right answer there is because they can move like movement seems like an essential elements, should being able to act in the environment but to all drop is doing that saddam. Is it the multiple be moved,

but does it involve itself move autonomously with it or the surfaces performing actions that maintain its structure. or you're you're being too clever. I was also sad that he provided a passive little oil dropped as the sitting there, a yoke and the bottom of the top of a glass sure guess what I'm trying to say is you're. Absolutely right. You can't you've even now that its movement, so where does up movement I'm from becomes from the inside then they need got. I think something that's living what you mean from the inside, what I mean is that the internal states that can influence reactive states that, where the act states can influence but they're not influenced by the external states, can cause movement. So there are two types of oil drops. If you like, there are oil drops where the internal states are so, and

A random that they average themselves away and the thing cannot on a balance on average, when you do the abbot move so an example of that will be the sub. on sunday? Has internal states and lots of intrinsic autonomous activity going on, but because it's not What did because it doesn't have the deep in the millennial sense ira, whose structure that the brain does There is no overall, mode or pattern or organization that expresses itself on the surface that allows it to actually swim it. It can certainly have your very active surface but or mass at the scale of the actual surface of the sun. The average position of that surface cannot in itself move because the internal done makes, are more like a hawk gas. There are literally like a hawk cast, whereas your internal dynamics are much more structured and deeply structured, and now,

You can express on your mark of an your active states with your muscles and unjust which reopens your stomach and nervous system and its effective actually move, and that's all you can do as something which, if you haven't thought of it like this before. I think it's nice to realize There is no other way where you can change, the universe other than simply moving. Whether that moving his articulating, my I with my voice box or walking around squeezing juices out of my secreted organs, only one way to change the universe, moving and and the fact that you do so non randomly it's you alive yeah, so I thought not randomness. That's were saved. and that would be manifestly we realise in terms of essentially swimming essentially moving changing one shape.

four genesis that is dynamic and possibly adaptive, so that that I was get up to the difference from the oil drop in the little tadpole than the tab. is moving around its its active states are actually changing the external states, and there is now a cycle and action perception cycle if you like, a recurrent dynamic, that's going on that depends upon this deeply structured autonomous behaviour, the rests upon internal dynamics that are not only modeling. They data impressed upon the surface of the blanket states, but they are actively we sampling those data by moving the moving, towards commits a chemical grades and came a texas so they ve gone beyond just being good little models of,

kind of world they live in, for example, and all droplet could, in a pan, psychic sense be construed as a little being. That has now perfectly inferred. it's a passive, not living oil drop living in a bowl of water, no problem, but to now equip the oil drop with the ability to go out and test that hypothesis about different states of beings? So it can actually push it's surface over there over there and test for chemical gradients or then you start to move to much more lifelike form. The soul is a fun theoretically interesting, but it actually is quite important in terms of reflecting what I have seen since the turn of the millennium and which is moved towards in it, and it inactive

embodied understanding of intelligence, and you say, offer machine learning this. So what that means this that serve the central importance of movement I think, has yet to really hit machine. Learning It certainly has now am diffused itself throughout robotics, and perhaps you could say certain problems in active vision, way: chapter move the camera, the sample? Listen up, but machine learning of the data mining and deep learning sought simply hasn't contended with this issue. What it's done, instead of dealing with the movement problem and the active sampling of data, it is said we don't need to worry we can see all the data cause. You got big data, so we need nor movement, so for me is an important omission in

machine learning curve. Machine learning is much more like the oil drop yes, but an all dropped. but in enjoys an exposure to daily well the data to pay respects to, as opposed to the tadpoles swimming out, to find the right data. For example, it likes food and that's a good hypothesis tested as go and move and am ingest food for example, and see what that is the evidence that I kind of thing that makes this kind of food so that the next natural question and forgive this question, but if we think of so even artificial intelligence systems, which had just been a beautiful picture of existing and life so Do you do to ascribe cry. Do fine, within this framework, a possibility of defining consciousness, or exploring the idea of cautiousness like what

self awareness and expanded to cautiousness yeah? How can we, how can we start to think about consciousness within this framework, is a possible where at you it's possible to think about whether you get anywhere eyes again, I'm not show that I'm late, is to enhance electricity. I thought you'd have to speech or qualified philosopher to ITALY, attack on a definitive answer that, but certainly the lot of interest in using not just these ideas but related ideas from information theory to try and tie down the mass in the council the geometry of consciousness, either in terms of from a minimal consciousness. I even less than a minimal selfhood, and I, about? Is the ability effectively to plan

so have agency. So you, It argued that a virus does have a form of agency, in virtue of the way that it selectively finds hosts cells to live in and moves around. but you wouldn't and die with the capacity to think about planning and moving a purposeful way. Where countenances, the future where's, you might amount, you might think amounts not quite as conscious as a virus, it certainly seems to have a purpose. It talks to its friends on reaching its foraging It has a different kind of autonomy, which is biotech, but beyond a virus? So there's something about the soul. There's some line that has to do with the complexity of planning. Yes, then,

may contain answer. Amelia be beautiful. If footing find a line beyond which we can sail being asked, is cautious. Yes, it is a wonderful lies. The withdrawn the existence of life in consciousness there. It will be very nice what one little wrinkle there- and this is something very learned in the past few months- is a notion. The philosophical notion of vagueness, say: you'll, see It would be wonderful to draw a line. I had always assumed that not at some point would be drawn until about four months ago, and the philosopher told me about vagueness, so I do if you ve come across this, but it is a technical concept. And laughing most revealing. Lee illustrated with at what point does apart sand become a pile. it won't grain to grains, three grains of four grins, so At what point would you draw the line between being applied,

of sand and a collection of something grains of and in the same way, is it right to ask? Where would I draw the line between conscious and unconscious, and it might be a vague concept. Having said that, I I agree with you entirely on the systems that have the ability to plan. So just technically what that means is, and your you're, your inferential self evidencing, by which I simply mean the dynamics, the the thermal dynamics and gradient flows. The underwrite the preservation of your oil droplet, like form ah strived as a cumbersome and optimization of macao log beijing.

Evidence, your elbow, I'm that self evident thing must be evidence for a model of what's causing the centre. Impressions on the says she part of your surface, all your mark of blanket. If that model is capable of planning and must include a model of the future consequences. Radioactive states interaction just putting someone how in the game, a planning as inference now what we have made, that we make a big move away from big data machine learning, because again it's the consequences of moving is a consequence of selecting the These data are those data are looking over. There that tells you immediately that even too big ten different, conscious anti factor. I am. so. May I owe generalised, let alone it then you ve got have movement in the game,

Furthermore, you ve got to have a judge. A model of the sort you might find it say asian or encoder? That is thinking about the future, conditioned upon different courses of action. Now that brings a number of things to the table which now you start thinking, there's got all right ingredients dogma consciousness. I have now got a select am among a number of different causes of action into the future as part of planning I've now got free. Will I the act of selecting this course of action of that policy or that policy, or that action suddenly makes me into an inference machine. A self evident, sing artifacts, That now looks as if it selecting amongst different alternative ways forward, as I actively swim here, also in their only look away so I think you now got to a situation if there is planning in the makes you now getting much closer to that lie. If that light, wherever to exist, I don't you

It's you quite as far as self aware, though, I think you and then near you. you have to I think, grapple with the question. How would formally right down a countless run? Mats of self awareness I dont think, is impossible to do but I think you would, pressure on you to actually commit to a form of definition. What you mean by self awareness. I think most people I know, would probably said that a goldfish pet fish was not so where they were probably argue about their favorite cat, but booty happy to say that mumbo self aware so. Maybe there might very well connected to some level of complexity with planning. Is

like self awareness, is essential for complex planning. Ya. Don't turn out further you're absolutely right again, the lies unclear, but it seems like integrating yourself into the world into europe into your planning, is essential for constructing complex plans, yes, so are mathematically describing that in this elegant way. As you have the floor. Your principle may be difficult. Well, Yes, I know I don't even know. Perhaps we should discuss. Can we just go back a bit? You doesn't? import Nancy gave light, and I think if I just I packed it, yields eat your you'd, see the truism that you ve just leave just expense, whereas add, but levy sire I mindful that I didn't answer a question before you're. What's the prefecture principle good for, is it just a pretty theoretical exercise to spend money? Caribbean city state? Yes, it is, it does nothing more few than that

it can be regarded as Gaza may arrogant, but it is of the sort of theory of natural selection policies of of of natural selection, beautiful undeniably true, but tells you absolutely nothing happens. Why you have legs at eyes and it says nothing about the actual phenotype it and it wouldn't allow to build something. So very peaceful directly than five sound phrase is vacuousness as as as most tautological fares by tautological. Of course, I'm talkin to the young, the theory of natural's, the survival of the fittest. What's the fittest, those survive, while the cycles the fitter it discouraged If the circles are in a sense of free energy principle, has that same yo deflation, tautology under your under the hood? It's yeah it it sits too. Rio is a characteristic of things that exist why they exist because they minimize their energy. Why

If I were known as a trilogy because they exist, I just keep going round and round around, but the the what the practical thing which you don't get from natural selection, but you could say, as now manifest in things depression, evolutional, genetic algorithms and ibm, see, for example, and machine learning. The practical thing you can get is if it looks as if things that exist are trying to put one there have been six dynamics and because other optimizing, a veritable for energy. Innovation strategy has to be a functional over jones model. A problematic this description of. causes and consequences causes out their consequences. In the sincere him on the sensory parts, the mark of banking, then it should in theory, possible to write down the judge model work out the gradient and they cause it to

autonomously self evidence. So you should be able to write down oil droplets. You should be able to create artifacts where you have supplied the objective function that supplies the gradients that supplies the self organizing dynamics to non equilibrium, steady state. So there is actually a practical application, the theology principle when you can write down your required evidence in terms of what when you can write down the german model. That is the thing that has the as the possibility of these sensory data, this data, given that, given that model is effectively the thing the elbow the variation friendship, islands of approximates that means that you cannot. You write down the model, The kind of thing that you want to engineer kind of asia? I ought artificial joe intelligence,

you want to manifest. Politically, menu engineer or about what but you'd engineer a about a computer to perform a great and sent on that objective function say it does have a practical in, implication now. Why am I wish you all about? It did seem relevant too. Yes, so what kinds of so the answer but it would have easily be hartwell mathematically, easy I've just tell you already need is right down your your perfect artifact, probably stick it in the form of the protestant church model prohibition suspicion over they cause. and consequences of the of the world in which Thing is immersed menu engineer they come peter and a robot to form a grating descent on that objective function, no problem, but of course the big problem is: writing down the gentle modem. So that's where the heavy lifting comes it. So it's it's.

Form in the structure of that joint model, which basically defines the artifact, the you create, or indeed the kind of artifact that have self awareness. So that's where all the hard work comes a very much like natural selection, doesn't tell you in the slightest. Why you have eyes so you have to? down on the actual feed untied the actual Jan model so With that in mind, what did you tell me that tells me immediately the kinds of joan two models I would have to, down in order to have self awareness? What you said to me was: I have to have a model that is effectively fit for purpose that this kind of world in which I operate and if I now make the observation that this kind of world is effectively largely populated by other things. Like me are you then

makes enormous sense that if I can develop a hypothesis that we are similar kinds of creatures this, if at the same kind of each up. But I am me, and you are you, then it becomes, again mandated to have a sense of self survive, live in a world that is constituted by things like me. Basically, a social world, a community. Then it becomes necessary now for me to have further me talking, not you talking, I wouldn't it it was on mars by myself. If I. in the jungle, is a federal child either nothing millions if Nothing like me around. There would be no need to have an influence at a hypothesis. Ah, yes, it is me that is expressing a causing these sounds, and it is not you it's only when this ambiguity in play induced by the fact that there are others in the world. So I think that the special thing about self aware

artifacts is that they have learned to all day I have acquired least are equipped with possibly by evolution, generative models that allow for the fact there are lots copies of things like them around and therefore they to work? How is your not me that, as brilliant I have never thought of that. I never thought of that. That the purpose of the debris, the usefulness of cautiousness herself awareness. in the context of planning existing in the world is safe operate with other things like you, I, like you couldn't it doesn't. isn't necessarily be human. It can be other kind of similar creatures. Some of the really well we've imbue a lot of our attribute into our pets, they're always there or we try to make our robots humanoid, and I think that your deep reason for that that is this easy to read the world if you can make the simplifying assumption that, basically, your me out, it is your turn to talk

I mean when we talk about play when you talk specifically about planning the highest if, like manifest national realisation of that, putting his what we're doing now, the human different, doesn't get any high of a talking about. The philosophy of existence conversations in that conversation there is it up beautiful out of turn, taking and neutral inference. Theory of my I have to know when you want to listen. I have to know when you want to interrupt out, make sure the Earl line I have to have a model. In my head of your model in your head, that's the highest, mr fist, get former german where the generated model actually has agenda bottles of yellow Genji model. I think that what we are doing now evinces. The kinds of have models that would support self awareness, because without that we'd better talking over each other?

Will we be singing together in a choir? Europe? Were ravages forgot, that's not and out of what I'm trying to say that you are, we we will. We wouldn't have this discourse. There were dancing of it, the other that is to have. As I interrupt. I mean debts beautifully, put we listened to this conversation made out of there's so much power. During this an end, mathematics, Let me ask the silliest said: perhaps biggest question as as a last kind of question we ve talked about living in existence and objective function under which these objects would operate. What do you think is the objective function of our existence? What what's the meaning of life What do you think is the for you, perhaps the purpose, the source of fulfillment

the source of meaning for your existence has as one blob as for himself in soup, I am tempted to us about. Oh yes, the physicist free energy expect I'm going to put my behavior. So technically, Latvia, the arab, get really interesting conversation about what that comprises in terms of searching for information, resolving uncertainty about the kind of thing that I am both a suspect that you? you really want to soluble personal and finance and but which is, can be consistent with that, and I think it's, You re assuring a simple and hops back to what you are. I am told as a child of the EU have certain beliefs about the kind of creature and the kind of person you are and all

self evident sing means all that minimizing variation for energy in a knot in an inactive and embodied way means is fulfilling the beliefs about what kind of thing you up and a cultural given those scripts theirs. narratives at a very early age, using the farmers bedtime stories of? restore is that I'm upset sesar gonna be too beast to will transform the prince and narratives are all around you from your parents to the to the friends to the society feed these stories and then Then your objective function is to fulfil exactly now. The narrative that has been uncultured by your your immediate family- Yes, he say also the son of the culture of achievement. She got up and you create for yourself from again because it is active inference. Is it inactive aspect of self evident, sing They are not only

am I modeling my environment, my economy, my my external states out there, but I'm actively changing them all the time and it still doing the same back. Would you get together a synchrony. That means that are creating maya culture over different tat timescales. So the question now is for me being very selfish. What skips raw given it basic with the mixture between einstein on shark homes I make as heavily as possible try to avoid too much into personal contact, yet yeah enjoy the fantasy that that that you're, you're you're you're, a popular scientist, is going to make a difference in a slightly quirky way. So that's: what's where I grew up. My father, my father was was was an engineer and loves science and he loved it loved your sort of, and things like, sir arthur eddington space time and gravitation, which was the

but the other, the first understandable version of of of general relativity, and he saw all not now very stories I was told us. I was growing up, were all about these characters, keeping the hop it out this because, quite fit. I know this is a joint of exploration appears of swords, so yeah I've just grow up to be What I imagine a mild, mannered, Sherlock holmes, slush albert einstein, We will do it in my shoes and he d elegantly and beautifully Carla's huge ana talking today was fun thanks, so much vita vacation. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Karl friston and thank you for presenting sponsor cash up. Please consider supporting the bar gas by downloading cash app and using coal lux podcast. If by gas subscribing you to review five stars and papa gas support on pay turn or

looking at me on twitter and lacks friedman. I now let me leave you with the words from Karl Kristen. Your arm moves because you predict it will ensure motor system seeks to minimize prediction error. Thank you feel a thing I hope to see you next time.