The following is a conversation with jack, dorsey, co, founder and c o of twitter and founder and ceo of square, given the happenings at the time related to twitter leadership. and the very limited time we had. We decide to focus this conversation square and some broader philosophical topics and to save an in depth invitation and engineering in the air I twitter for second appearance in his pocket. This conversation was accorded before the outbreak of a pandemic. for everyone feeling the medical, psychological and financial burden of this crisis. I'm sending of your way stay strong when this together will be this thing. As an aside, let me mention that moved one billion dollars square equity, which is twenty eight percent of his wealth warm an organization that funds covered nineteen relief first as Andrew Yang tweeted. This is a spectacular commitment

Second, it is amazing that operates transparently by posting all his donations to a single Google doc. To me, true transparencies simple- and this is as simple as it gets. This is the artificial intelligence podcast enjoy it subscribe on youtube review five stars in apple podcasts support our patron or simply connect with me on twitter at lex Friedman, spot Var Id a man as usual I'll do a few minutes of as now and never any as in the middle. That can break the flow of the conversation. I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience. The show is presented by master class sign up by masterclass dot com, slash lex, to get a discount and to support this podcast

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Alt and to support the spa guest and now his my conversation with jack dorsey, you bid on several projects jerome in some areas, rich all others, exxon conversations, but I think they're, several topics that you didn't talk about- that, I think, are fast either talk to about sort of machine learning, artificial intelligence, author than a kind and the general kind and engineering its El, so there's a lot of incredible engineering going on they you're part of crypto cooked currency blockchain. You be, I all kinds of philosophical questions we will get to my life and death and meaning and beauty. So

you're, are involved in building some of the biggest network systems in the world sort of trillions in interactions a day. The cool thing about that is the infrastructure, the engineering at scale. You started as a programmer We see the voting. Yes, I'm a hacker merlin engineer. Not not a legit software engineer your tracker at heart, but to achieve scale you have to do some, unfortunately legit or scale engineering. So how do you make that magic happen? Hire people? I can learn from number one. I mean I'm a hacker in the sunset I my approach, and do whatever it takes to make our work so that I can see and

well the thing and then learn what needs to come next and oftentimes. What needs to come next is a matter of being able to bring it to more people which is scale and and there's a lot of great people out there that either have experience or are extremely fast learners that we've been lucky enough to to find and work with for for years, but think a lot. We benefit a ton from the open source community and saw the learning there that are it in the open all the mistakes, so success, other problems, a very slow moving process, usually opensource but very deliberate, and you get the sea because of the the pace you get to see what it takes to really build something meaningful to? I learned must must of everything I learned about hack

in programming and engineering has been due to and sourcing Andy. Generosity that people have given to give up their time sacrificer time with. with any expectation, return other than being a part of something much larger than themselves. Yet, I think, is great though precise move is amazing, but if you just look at the scale like square to take care of this. Fundamentally, software problem hardware problem, you mentioned hiring a bunch of people said it's not maybe, from our perspective not often talked about How incredible that is to serve system that doesn't go down. Often that secures able to view take care, volleys frenzy, it's like. Maybe I'm I'm also a hacker at heart, and it's incredible to me that that kind of scale can be achieved.

some in sight some lessons. Some interesting in busy. You can say about how to make that scale happen. Is it the hardware Another challenge? Is it a software challenge? Is it like it is it does Social challenge of building large teams of engineers that work together. That kind of thing like what's is there was the interesting challenges, their brother, where you're the best ross harker I've I've met. I think the link you buy If the union immigration you just went through, I don't think there's one you have to kind of focus on all ends. The ability to focus on all that really comes down to how you face problems and whether you can.

write them down into parts that you can focus on, because I think the biggest mistake, as is trying to solve your address to many at once, or not going deep enough the questions were not being critical of the answers you find or not formed, not taking the time to form credible hypotheses, though you connect a test, and you can see the result of so all of those fall in the face of autonomy, critical thinking, skills, problem, solving girls and if there's one skill, I want to improve everyday. It's that that's that's! Where contributes to the learning and the only way we can evolve any these things, as is learning

What is currently doing in and how to take it to the next. The next up and questioning assumptions the first principles, kind of thinking that, since I got fundamental this whole process here, but if you get to over stand into well. This is a hardware issue. You miss all this offers solutions, and you know vice versa. If you focus too much on the software that there are hard resolutions that contain accessing. So I am, I try to resist the categories of of thinking and look for for the underlying systems that make all these things work, but those only emerge when you have scale around creative, creative thinking, problem solving and at being ever ask oral questions and having the patients to go deep.

One of the amazing things. If you look at the mission of square is to increase people's access to the economy. maybe maybe you can credibly farmers from my perspective, served from the perspective of from the perspective peer payments, even crypto, cooked a currency, digital copper currency What do you see the major ways our society can increase, participation and the economy look at today in the next ten years, next, twenty years, you're gonna forgot may be in africa in all kinds of other places outside of the north america. If there was one word, I think, represent What we're trying to do at squirts it is that word access, and one of the things we found is that we we weren't expecting this at all. When we started, we thought we're just building a a peace, a hardware to enable people to poland.

their phone and swept credit card and then ass. We talked with people who actually try to accept credit cards in the past. We found it can, and theme which many of them were even enable mit and enabled but allowed to process credit cards, and we dug lobby deeper again asking a question and we found that allow them would go to banks or these merchant acquirers ants waiting for them was a credit check,

and looking at a fica score and many of the businesses that we talked to and many small businesses. They don't have good credit or a credit history and they're entrepreneurs who are just getting started, taking a lot of personal risk financial risk, and it just felt ridiculous to us that, for for for the for the job of being able to accept money from people you to get your credit checked. as we dug deeper. We realized that that wasn't the intention of the financial industry, but it's the only tool they had available to them to understand authenticity, intent, predictor of future behavior. So that's the first thing we actually looked at and that's where the you know. We built the hardware, but the software really came in terms of risk modeling and that's when we started down the path

that eventually leads to a I. We started with a very strong data science discipline, because we knew that our business was not necessarily about. making hardware. It was more about enabling more people to come into the system, so the fundamental challenge there is so to enable more people come into this system. You have to lower the barrier of checking that that part, it will be a lodging at vendor. Is that but the problem here and a different mindset. I think, the financial industry had a mindset of some kind of distrust and constantly looking for opportunities to prove why

bullshit and get into the system, whereas we took on a mindset of trust and then verify verify verify verify verifies were so we moved when we, when we entered the space. Only about thirty to forty percent of the people who apply to accept credit cards would actually get through this We took a number than ninety nine percent, and that's because we re frame the problem, we built credible models and we had to smile. Set of we're going to watch not at the merchant level but we're gonna watch at the transaction level, so common performed some transaction.

And as long as you're doing things that feel high integrity, credible and don't look suspicious will continue to serve you. If we see any interesting us in how we use our system, they'll be bubbled up to people to review, to figure out. If there's something in the far east going on and that's when we may, I should leave so the change in the mindset led to the technology that we needed to enable more people together and to enable more people, access system. What our world is machine, learning plan to that in that context of a he said, for all the beautiful shift any time. You shift your viewpoint into seeing that people are fundamentally good and then you just have to verify and catch the ones who are not, as opposed to assuming

these bad, as is a beautiful thing. So what role does the to you the history of the company has machine learning played in doing that. Number of it was a media I mean we were calling it machine learning, but it is not a science and then the industry evolved machine, It became more of the nomenclature and and as that evolved, it became more sophisticated with deep learning and as ai continues continues to evolve. It'll be it'll, be another thing, but they're all in the same vein, and but we built that discipline up within the first year, the company, because we also had you know we. We had a partner with a bank. We had a partner with visa mastercard and we had to show that by bringing more people into the system that we could do so in a responsible way that would not compromise their systems and that there would trust us. How are you convinced this affair company with some

cool machine learning tricks is, it or to deliver on this road trustworthy set of merchants we state, it out in tears. We had a bucket of no five hundred or using. Then we showed results. In two thousand and ten thousand and fifty thousand men their contract was left was lifted. So I guess it's kind of something tangible out there? I want to show what, can do rather than talk about it, and that put a lot of pressure on us to do the right things and it also created a culture of canada. Body of more transparency, and I think a oliver early, foxen and accompanying the railway, so was, if you should look like in terms of increase, sing people's access or he look at tea in earth things

more more intelligent devices you can see There's some people even talking about our personal data as a thing we could monetize more explicitly verses implicitly through everything can become part of the economy. Do you see what? What is the future? A squirrel look like in giving people access in all kinds of ways to being part of it: ms merchants and as consumers. I believe that the current you re users is a huge part of the answer, and I believe that they are not deserves and requires a native currents in that way. I I'm such a huge believer in in becoming because it suggests just are. Our biggest problem is accompany renounced. We cannot act like an internet company opening market. We have to have a partnership with local bank. We have to pay attention to differ,

Regulatory on boarding environments ends, but did your currency like bitcoin Dixon a bunch of that away where we can potentially launch a product in every or market around the world. Because There are using the same currency and we have consistent understanding of regular sure and boarding and and and what that means. So I think I The dear not continuing to be accessible to people is number one I think currency is is number two and it just allow for a lot more innovation, a lot more speed in terms of what We can build and others can build and ditches did just really exciting. I mean I want. I want to be able to see that and feel then in my lifetime, so

This aspect in other aspects of deep interest in critical seemed to be ledger: tack and general. I talk to arm, metallic bitter and yesterday and this podcast, he says hi way brilliant person, brilliant, brilliant lot about a lot about bitcoin and, of course, so can you maybe linger on this point. What what do you find? appealing about bitcoin about digital currency. What do you see it going in the next ten twenty years? and what are some of the challenges with respect square, but also just bigger. Far for good. billy far world for the way we are, we think about money. I I think the most beautiful thing about it is there's no one person setting the direction and there's no one person on the other side too, can stop it. So we have something that is some pretty organic in nature.

and very principled in its original design, and I in I think that clean white papers, one of the seminal works of computer science and less twenty thirty years. It's it's poetry I mean has already whole. That's not that's not often talked about there's their summer serve hyper on digital currency, about finance. Impacts of it, but the actual technology is quite beautiful from a computer science perspective here in the in the underlying principles behind it that went into it even to the point of releasing it them. I think that's a very, very powerful statement. The timing of windows released his released is powerful. It was, it was a total activists move it's it's moving europe forward and in a way that I think, is extremely noble and our role and enables- want to be part of the story, which is also really cool, so you asshole

run ten years in twenty years, and I think that the amazing thing is no one knows: it can emerge, and every person comes in the ecosystem, whether they be a developer or someone who uses it, can change it's direction in small and large ways, and that's what I think I should because that's what the the internet has shown as possible. Now, there's complications without, of course, and theirs, you know certainly, companies her own large ports or the internet and contract at more than others, and there is not equal access to every single person in the world just yet, but all those problems are visible enough to speak about them and to me, like his confidence that their solvable in a relatively short time I think the world changes a lot as we get these satellites and projecting the internet down to earth and because it just removes a bunch of the

former constraints and and really level the playing field. But a global currency which a native currency for the internet is a proxy for it very powerful concept, and I don't think any one person on this planet truly understands ramifications of that. I think there's a lot of positive to it. There's some negatives as well, but it's possible sorry to interrupt, is possible that this kind of digital currency would we define the nature of monies, have become the main currency of the world as opposed to being tied to fear currency. different nations and really push decentralization of control of money deaf, but I think that the bigger ramifications how it affects how society works and I think the word, though there are many positive ramifications us around the money just outside of your money, money money. Is it additionally, that enables so much more. I was

with an entrepreneur in ethiopia and payments. Probably the number one problem to solve across the continent both in terms of moving money across borders between missions on the continent or the amount of corruption within the current system, but the lack of easy ways to pay people make starting anything really difficult. I'm in love who started the lift, slash goober of ethiopia. the biggest problem she has is that its easy for her writers to pay a company. It's not easy for her to pay the drivers, and that definitely has stunted her

growth then made everything more challenging. So the fact that she is, she even has to think about payments instead of thinking about the best writer experience and the best driver experience ah, is, is pretty telling, so I think as we get a more durable resilient and global standard, We see a lot more innovation everywhere and There's no better case study for this than the various countries within within africa and entrepreneurs who are trying to start things within health, or sustainability or transportation or allow the companies, we ve, seen tat. We ve seen here so the majority of companies. I met november. When I spent a month on the continent, were payments oriented you mention

and there's a small changing you mentioned. The anonymous launch of bitcoin is a sort of profound philosophical statement to numbers forsaken means there's a pseudonym further theirs. I don t. Do it? It's not just anonymous threats. I say not tomorrow, so a nakamoto might represent one person or multiple people, but let me ask her usage ocean a checking for actually I wear what I tell you. He asked your butt. I saw AP a pseudonym is is, is, is constructed, identity Anonymity is just kind of us in all round. grandam like drops something often weave there is no intention to build an around it and while the identity being built was a short time window, it was meant to stick around. I think, and to be known and its being honoured

hmm. Do you know how the community thinks about building out, like the concept of supposed satoshis, for instance, and is is one such example, but I think it was smart not to do it anonymous not to do it as a real identity, but to do it as pseudonym weak, because I think it builds tangibility and a little bit of empathy that this was a human or set of humans behind it. And this, natural identity that I can imagine, but there is also sacrificing ego. That's a pretty powerful thing for the opposite of what would you do so far philosophically to ask you question, would you do all the same things you're doing now? If your name was an attached to serve? If, if you had to sack of, the ego put another way? Is your ego deeply tied in their decisions you ve been making? I hope not I mean

I believe I would certainly attempt to do the things without my aim having to be attach with it, but it's hard to do that in a corporation, legally. That's the issue. If I were to do more open source things and absolutely cannot doubt need by particular, identity, my real identity associate with it, but I think you know the appreciation that comes from doing something good and being able to see it and see people use it is pretty overwhelming and powerful more so than Maybe seeing your name in the in the let's talk about artificial intelligence, solar, where we could Seventy years ago, Alan turing formulated the turing test to me now, Language is one of the most interesting spaces of on problems that are tackled. Biofuels,

just as the canonical problem what it means to be intelligent. He formulated the turing test, masks the broad question: how hard you think is it to pass the turing test in the space of language just from a very practical steps? think where we are now in and for at least two years out, is one where the artificial intelligence machine learning the departing models can bubble up into saying this very very quickly and pear that with human discretion around severity around depth around. New, anson and meaning, I think for me to come. the cross for general intelligences, to be able to explain. Why and the meaning behind something

behind the decision for being behind decision to resort to such sorts of data, for the explain, ability, part is conversation. be able to explain using national language why the decisions were made the coming year I think that one of our biggest risk an artificial intelligence going for it is. We are building a lot of black boxes that can necessarily explain why they made a decision or what criteria they used to make the decision and were trusting that more and more from london, decisions to content recommendation to driving. Two health and, like you know, a lot of us have watches that tell us to understand. I was deciding that I mean that that one's pretty pretty simple, but you can imagine how complexity and being able to explain the reasoning behind some of those recommendations seems to be an essential part. although it was a very hard problem, because sometimes even we can explain why we make the corpus that's right,

I think we're being a sentimental about unfair for two artifice, I'll just as those who are not very good at these. Some of these things do you think about just for the ridiculous romance, says question? But that line of thought? Do you think, will ever be able to build a system like in the movie her they, you could fall in love with so have that kind of deep? action with hasn't that already happened. Hasn't someone in japan, former love with his eye, there's always going to be somebody that does that kind of thing I mean a much larger scale of actually building ships are being deeper connections, it does have to be love, but it just deeper connections with our fish intelligence system she mentioned explaining that is less a function of the artificial intelligence and more a function of the individual on and how? find meaning and where they found meaning using. We humans can find me in technology need this kind of way a hundred percent anderson percent.

And our own or think it a negative, but I know it is its constant going to of off so I don't know, but I meaning is something, that's entirely subjective and I dont think it's going to be a function of finding the magic over them that enables everyone to love it, but maybe that question really gets it the difference being human machine the you. You had a little bit of an exchange with mosque, basically I mean it's trivial version of that, but I think there's a more fundamental question of. Is it possible to tell the difference between a bot and a human, and do you think it's if we look into the future ten twenty years out. Do you think it will be possible, or even necessary, to tell the difference in the digital space between a human and are all

Can we have the feeling relationships with each or do we need to tell the difference between them? I think it certainly fallen. Certain problems remains to be able to tell the difference. I think in others. It might not be as useful as having a possible first today tell the difference as the reverse, the matter of the turing test. Well, what's interesting is, I think the technology to create is moving much faster than the technology to detect just think so. So if you look at my adversary, machine learning, there's a lot of systems that tried to fool machine learning systems and at least for me the hope is that the technology to defend will always be bright there. At least your senses, that I'm dunno. If they'll be ritter, I mean it, it's it's a race right, so the detection technologies have to be two or ten steps ahead of

the creation technologies. This is a problem that I think the financial industry, or face more more because A lot of our risk models, for instance, are built around identity. Pay me ultimately comes down to it. Only and You can imagine a world where all this conversation round deep fakes towards a direction of drivers, licence or passports, or a state identities and people construct identities in order to get through a system such as ours, to start exception, credit cards or in the cash? and those technologies seem to be moving very quickly. Our ability to detect them, I think, is probably lagging at this point, but certainly with more focus. We can get out of it, but is going to touch everything, so I think it's it's

It's like security and were never going to be able to build a perfect detection system. Were, were only going to be able to know what we should be focused on. This is the speed of evolving it and it will take signals that show correctness or errors as quickly as possible and and move into the to build, that into on our new models or the self learning models, give other worries like some people, like you and others have boys of the existential threats of art for thousands of artificial intelligence or, If you think more narrowly about threats and concerns about more narrow, artificial intelligence, like what are your thoughts in this domain

Do you have concerns, or are you more optimistic, I think, you've all in his in his book? Twenty one point: one lessons for the twenty first century: yeah his last chapters around meditation and you liked the title the chapter and you're like aunt: can tom, but the where was interesting about that chapter is he believes that your kids being born today growing up today Google has a stronger sense of their preferences than they do Which you can easily imagine easily. Imagine today that Google probably knows my preference is more than my mother does, maybe not me per se, but for someone growing up only knowing the internet, only nine or google escape of love or

facebook or twitter or square any these things. These self awareness is being offered it to other systems, and particularly these, these algorithm and his concern is that we lose that self awareness, because the self awareness is now at sight of us and such a better job at helping us direct our decisions around. Should I stand. Should I walk today? What doctors should I choose? Who should I date all these things were now seeing play out very quickly, so he sees meditation as a tool to build, thus have fairness and bring the focused back on. Why do I make these decisions? Why do I react in this way? Why did I have this thought? Where does it come from? That's the way regain control. We're awareness, maybe not control but but awareness. So the can be aware, then yes,

offloading this decision to this item that I don't feel anderson and can't tell me why it's doing things it's doing because so complex that to say that they are gonna can't be a good thing happened to me. I recommend or systems the best of what they can do is to help guide, Jonah journey of learning, new ideas of learning period integrating great thing. But do you know you're doing up? Are you aware that you're inviting it to do that? You think that's! That's our risk he identifies is that's perfectly ok. But are you aware that you have that limitation on its its being acted upon and said that that's her there's a concern, you're kind of highlighting that without lack of awareness. You can just be like floating at sea, so awareness is key in the future. These artificial intelligence systems, the movie. Why, while in

is one of pixar's best movies. Besides ratatouille Trying to edible you had mental attitude. Okay and credible. We ve come to the first While we disagree, okay, see entrepreneurial story in the form of a rough. I just remember just the soundtrack was really good, so excellent. What are your thoughts? Sticking our artificial intelligence, a little bit about the displacement of jobs as another perspective that candidates Andrew Yang talk about lingering forever. gang, so he, unfortunately speaking, we the gang has recently dropped out. I know it was very disappointing and depressing yeah, but the on the positive side he's, I think, launching podcast, so so cool yeah just announced that I'm sure you'll try to talk you, to try to come onto the pond gaston

so about rarity maybe he'll be more welcoming of their ratatouille argument. What are your thoughts on his concerns? the displacement of jobs of automation over that, of course, is positive impacts. The cook from automation, the iron, but it could also be naked. impacts and within. a framework or do you thoughts about universal basic income, so these interesting new ideas of how we can empower people and their economy. I I think he was a hundred percent right, on almost every dimension. We see the sun in squares business I mean he identified truck drivers, some from Zuri ends. T certainly pointed to the concern and the issue that people from where I'm from feel every single day. That is often visible about talked about enough.

Ex big one is cashiers. This is where it pertains to squares business, We are seeing more and more of the point of sale, move to the individual customers and in the form of their food an action plan. Or an order head seeing more kiosks were addressing more things like amazon go and the number of workers in as it as a cashier enricos amounts and others, there's no real answers on how they transform their skills and and work and in something else, and I think that does lead to a lot of really negative ramifications and the important point that he brought up around

universal basic income, is given that the shift is going to come and given it is going to take time to some people up with new skills and new careers. They need to have a floor to be able to survive and This a thousand dollars a month is such a floor. It's not going to incentivize you to quit your job because not enough, but it will enable you to not have to worry as much about just getting on day to day, so that you can focus on what am I, what am I going to do now, and what am I going to do? What skills do I need to acquire, and I think I think you know a lot of people point to the fact that you know during

the industrial age we we have the same concerns around automation, factory, lions and everything worked out. Ok, but the two biggest changes, just the the. Law, city and the centralisation of all. The things that make this work, which is the data the algorithms that work on this. On the study, I think that the second biggest scary thing issues how around a eyes just who actually owns the data and who can operate on and are we able to share the insights from the data so that we can also build? them that help our needs or help our business or were not? So that's where I think: relation could play a straw.

and positive part. First, looking at the primitive is of a and the tools we used to build these services, there were automate, touch every single aspect of the human experience and then how data, where tat is aunt and how its, how it share so those those are the answers that as a society as a world, we need have better, answers around, which we are currently not they're, just way to centralized into a few, very, very large companies, but I think you're spot on with identifying the problem in proposing solutions that would actually work at least that we learn from them. You could expand or evolve, but I mean it's. I think it's, u ba,

well well past its its do, I mean do, is certainly trumpeted by martin luther king in an even even before him as well and, like you said, knight, the exact thousand dollar mark. My be may not be the correct one, but new should take steps to try to implement these illusions and see see what works hundred percent for the eu, and I need some more diets, and at least I was the first time for this. Yes, I was doing it first time. Anyone has said that in this case anyway yeah It is becoming more and more cool, and but I was doing it before it was cool, so the intermittent fasting and fast in general. I really enjoy. I love food, but I enjoy of the hour

I love suffering because I'm russian, so fasting kind of makes you appreciate the ah makes you appreciate what it is to be human somehow so, but I have outside the philosophical stuff I ever morse The question also helps me as a programmer and a deep thinker links have been from scientific respect, the sit there for many hours and focus deeply, maybe you were a hacker before you were seo. What have you learned about diet, lifestyle, minds said the house, you maximize multiple performance to to focus for arm to think deeply this world of distractions? I think I just took it for granted for too long, which aspect just a social structure of we eat three meals a day in their snacks and between. I just never really ask the question: why, oh, by the way in case,

I don't know. I think a lot of people now believe yo at least he famously eat once a day. Do you still he wanted to give it a By the way, what made you decided once a day like misdemeanours, huge revolution. The university breakfas elsewhere I felt like I was a rebel like a feel like abandoned my parents, or something and bit of an anarchist when you, when you first like the first week, you start in the future you kind of like have a superpower, then you realize it's not really a superpower, but it, I think you realize at least I realized like it it just how much is how much our minds dictates. What were possible of? and and sometimes we have structures around us, the incentivize like three. Addressing which was purely social, structure, verses, necessity for our health and for our bodies.

and I did it just. I saw doing it because I played a lot with my diet. When I was a kid I was regan, for two years and just went all over the place just because a health is the most precious thing we have And none of us really understand it so being able to ask the question through experiments that I can perform myself and I learn about. I a is Compelling me- and I heard this one guy on a podcast wim half through his famous her doing I spouse and holding his breath, and all these things He said he only it's one meal a day, I'm like, while that sums sue we're challenging and comfortable. I'm a do it right. I just I learn the most. When I make myself, I want to say suffer, but when I make myself feel uncomfortable because everything comes to be

and those moments and in you really learn what you're, what you're about or why you're? Not so I been doing that my whole life like when I was a kid I cannot make. I was, I cannot speak. I gotta go to speech therapist it made me extremely shy. And then one day I realized. I can't keep done us and I signed up for the for the speech club in you know there was a famous Uncontrolled thing I could imagine doing getting a topic on an occurred, having five minutes to write a speech. about whatever that topic is not being able to use no card, while speaking and speaking, for five minutes about that topic. So, but it is just it put so much it get me so much purse perspective around the power of indication around my own deficiencies and around

I set my mind to do something you do so It gave me a lot more confident, so I see fasting in the same light. This is something that was, sting challenging, uncomfortable and has given so much learning and benefit as a result. And only to other things are dogs ramos, then play whispered yet Israel feel a bit like the superpower, sometimes most boring, super power. One can imagine now ask is quite incredible. Clarity of mind is, as is pretty interesting. Speaking of suffering he kind of talk about face. difficult ideas you meditate, you think about the broad context of life. varn societies, mommy asks apologizing

of their met size question. But do you ponder your own mortality? Do think about death about the fanatics of human existence when you meditate, when you think about it, and if you do what make sense of it. This thing ends Well, I don't try to make sense of it. I do think about it. Every day I mean it's, it's a daily that mod multiple times a day and you're afraid of the Now, I'm not afraid of it. I think it's some it's a transformation that are not what, but it's also tool to feel the importance every moment side. I just uses a reminder like I have an hour. Is this really what I'm going to spend the hour doing like,

I have so many more sunsets and sunrises to watch like I'm not going to get up for it. I'm not going to make sure that I that I, that I try to see it so it it. It just puts a lot into perspective and helps me prioritize. I think it's I don't. I don't see it as something that's like that. I dread hers is dreadful. It it's a it's a tool that is, able to every single person to use every day, because it shows how precious ifas anders reminders every single day be your own house fer, a friend, Erica worker or something you see in the news. So it is to me it's just a question of what we do with our daily reminder and for me, it's No, I really focused on what matters, and sometimes I might be work. Sometimes it might be friendships or family relationships heard or not, but that that's it's the ultimate clarifier in

the question of what matters another ridiculously big question of once you try to mix. So what do you think is the meaning of it all the meaning of life work is zoo purpose, happiness, meaning a lot. Does I mean I mean just being able to be aware of the fact that I'm alive, as is pretty pretty meaningful connections, I feel with individuals whether people, I just me or. Long lasting friendships heard my family does meaningful. Seeing people- well use something that I helped build, does really meaningful and powerful to me and ah, but but that sense of I mean I, I think, ultimately comes down a sense of connection and just feeling like I am bigger. I am part of something that's bigger than myself and might I can feel it?

directly in small ways or large ways, however manifest this is probably a poet last question. Do you think we're living in a simulation? Now, it's a pretty fun one. If we but also crazy and random, and brought with tender problems, but what would you have it any other way? Yeah I mean. I just think it's taken us way too long to as a as a planet to realize we're all in this together and we all are connected and in in in very significant ways, and I think we we hide our connectivity, very well through ego through in or whatever whatever it is a day, but that does one thing I want to work towards changing and that's not

However, I would have it otherwise, as if, if we can't, that and how we going connect to all the other simulations. That's the next step is like: what's happened, The other simulation escaping this one and yeah spanning across the multiple. Simply genes and sharing in and around the fun. I think there is a better way to end it jack. Thank you so much for the work. You do, there's probably other ways that remain. this and other simulations that may have member what wait and see africa thanks a lot of talk in a thank you thanks for listening to this conversational jack dorsey, a thank you to sponsor master class. Please consider supporting the spot cast by signing up to master class at master class that calm, slash, lex enjoys by gas subscribe. I need to review the five stars and apple pie, gas support, our patron

I simply connect with me on twitter and lex Friedmann, and now let me leave you so words about bitcoin from Paul gram, I'm very intrigue by big coin. It has all the signs of a paradigm shift, hackers love it, yet it is described as a toy. Just like Michael computers. Thank you listening and hope to see you next time.