The following is a conversation with Eric Weinstein's. The second time was spoken on the spot, cast he's a mathematician with a bold and piercing intelligence unafraid to explore the biggest questions in the universe and shine a light on the dockers corners of our society. He is the host of the Porto podcast, a part of which he recently released his two thousand thirteen oxford lecture on his theory of geometric unity, that is at the centre of his life, on efforts to arrive at a theory of everything that unifies the fundamental laws of physics. This conversation was recorder recently in the time of the coroner virus pandemic for everyone feeling the medical, psychological and financial

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dodge the first, an organisation that is helping to advance robotics stem education for young people around the world and now here's my conversation with Eric Weinstein's, you sick action between world war too and the crisis were living through right now sure the need for collect if action reminding ourselves of the fact that all of these abstractions, like everyone, should just to exactly what he or she wants to do for himself and leave everyone else loan. None of these abstractions work in it,

the crisis, and this is just a reminder that we didn't somehow put all that behind us. When I hear stories about my grandfather, who was in the army and so the soviet union, where most people die when you're in the army there's a brotherhood that happens. There's a love there happens. Do you think that something will see here are some worn on their mean what the soviet union went through? I mean the enormity of the war on the russian doorstep. This is different while we're gone through now's, not we can talk about stalingrad and covered in the same breath. Yet when I ready and the the sort of you know that, just as the sense of like the great patriotic war and the way in which I was very moved by the soviet custom of newlyweds

going and visiting war memorials on their wedding day. Like the happiest day of your life, you have to say thank you to the people who made it possible we're not there we're just restarting history. We have called this on the rogan program. I called it the great nap, Seventy five years with very little by historical standards and in terms of really profound disruption, and so, when you called the great nap mean lack of deep glow, we'll tragedy, while lack of realized global tragedy, so I think the development, for example, of the hydrogen bomb. You know something that happened during the great now, and that doesn't mean that people who lived during that time didn't feel fear didn't know anxiety, but it was to say that most of the violent potential of humans,

If she is was not realised, it was in the form of potential energy, and this is the thing that I've sort of taken issue with with the description of stephen pinker, is, Optimism is that if you look at, they realized kinetic variables things. I've been getting much better for a long time, which is the great nap, but it's not as if our fragility has not grown. Our dependence on electronic systems are vulnerability to disruption, and so all sorts of things have gotten much better. Other things have happened worse in the destructive potential has skyrocketed his tragedy. The only way we wake up from the big nap well, no, you could also have a you know, jubilation about positive things, but it's harder to get people's attention. Can you give an example of a big global, positive thing, while I could happen, I think that when

For example, does the historically speaking hiv went from being a death sentence to something that people could live with for a very long period of time? It would be If that had happened on a wednesday right like all at once, you knew that things have changed and said the believe in somewhat kills thee. The sort of the Wednesday effect where it all happens at a particular day at a particular moment- If you look at the stock market here, in others, a very clear moment where you can see that the market absorbs the idea of the corona virus, I think that with respect to positives the moon. Landing was the best example of a positive that happened at a particular time or

recapitulating the soviet american link up in terms of firm sky lab, and so is re like that was a huge moment when you actually had these two nations connecting in orbit. and so yeah. There are great moments where something beautiful and wonderful and amazing happens. You know, but it's just they're fewer. That's. Why that's? Why? As much as I can't imagine proposing to somebody at a sporting event when you have like thirty thousand people waiting- and you know like she says- yes, it's pretty exciting, so I think that we shouldn't we shouldn't discount that so how bad do you think it's going to get in terms of the global suffering that we're gone?

experience with this? With this crisis, racket figure? This went out, I'm just not smart enough. Something is going weirdly wrong. They're, almost like two separate storylines. When one story line we aren't taking things nearly seriously enough. We see people using food packaging lids as masks who were doctors and nurses. We hear horrible stories of people dying needlessly due to tree and that's a very terrifying story On the other hand, there is this other story which says there tons of ventilators someplace. We ve got lots of masks but then released we ve got hospital

Ships were, none of the beds are being used, and it's very confusing to me that some, how these two stories give me the feeling that they both must be true simultaneously, and they can't both be true in any kind of standard way What did I know whether it's just that I'm dumb, but I can't get one or the other story to quiet down, so I think weirdly. This is much more serious than we had understood it and is not nearly as serious as some people are making it out to be at the same time and that were not being given the tools to actually understand here's how to interpret the data. Are you here the issue with the person? Protective equipment is actually a jurisdictional battle or a question of who pays for it rather than a question of whether it's present or apps. I don't understand the details of it, but something is

wildly off in our ability to understand where we are so that that's policy, that's institutions. What about? Do you think about the quiet suffering of millions of people that have lost their job? Is this a temporary thing? I mean what I'm my ears not to the suffering of those people who have lost their job or the fifty percent, possibly a small businesses that are going to go back. Do you think about that schweitzer offering well and how that might arise itself could be not quiet to mean right, that's the could be a depression, is could go from recession to depression and depression could go to armed conflict and then to war. So it's not a very abstract causal chain that gets us

The point where we can begin with quiet suffering and an anxiety and all these sorts of things, and then people losing their jobs and people dying from stress and all sorts of things, but look any powerful enough to put us all indoors in a at lit. Think that this is an incredible experiment. Imagine that you proposed hey. I want to do a bunch. research, let's figure out what what changes in our emissions emissions profiles for our carbon footprint when we're all indoors or what happens to traffic patterns are what happens to the vulnerability of retail sales as amazon get stronger, you know, etc, etc. I believe that in many of those situations were running an incredible, Government- and I am I worried for us all. Yes, there are some bright spots, one of which is that

when you're ordered to stay indoors, people are going to feel entitled and the usual thing that people are going to hit when they hear that you've lost your job. You know some there's this kind of tough, tough love attitude that you see, particularly in the united states like oh, you lost job poor baby, while go retract get another one I think is going to be a lot less appetite for that, and because we've been asked to sacrifice to risk to act collectively and that's the interesting thing. What does that reawaken in us? Maybe the idea that we actually are nations and that you know your fellow countrymen may may start to mean something. two more people certainly mean something to people in the military, but I wonder how many people

worn in the military start to think about. This is like oh yeah, where we are kind of running, separate experiments and we are not china, so you think this is kind of a period that may be studied for years to come. From my perspective, we aren't a part of experiment, but I don't feel like we have access to the full data. The full data of the experiment were just like little mice yeah in a lot average. Does this one make sense to you lex, I'm I'm romanticizing it and I keep connecting it to world war two. So I keep connecting to historical events and making sense of them through that way or reading the plague by comeau like almost kind of telling narratives and stories, but my I'm not hearing the suffering people going through, because I think that's quiet, everybody's numb current

if they're not realizing what it means to have lost your job and to have lost your business, there's kind of a I don't. I am I'm afraid how that fear will material as itself once the numbness wears out, and especially if this last, for many months, then, if it's connected to the incompetence of the cdc and a w h, o and our government and perhaps the election process, you know my big biggest fears that the you know. Elections get delayed or something like that the basic mechanisms of our democracy. Get load or damaged in some way. That then mixes with the fear that people have the turns to panic. That turns to anger that anger ties play with a fellow butcher, what

in fact, all of that structure that you grew up. Thinking about and again you grew up in two places right. So when you're inside the? U s, we tend to look at all of these things as museum pieces. I, how often do we amend the constitution anymore and in some sense, if you think about the jewish, edition of simplicity, Torah. You ve got this beautiful scroll. That has been lovingly hand drawn and calligraphy. That's very valuable and it's very important that you not treat it as a relic to be revered, and so we, one day year, we dance with the Torah and we hold this incredibly vulnerable document up and we treat it as if you know

it was ginger rogers being led by fred astaire. While that is how you become part of your country, in fact, maybe the maybe the election will be delayed may be extraordinary. Powers will be used, may be any one of a number of things will indicate that you're actually living through history, This isn't a museum piece that you handed by your great great grandparents, but you kind of suggesting that there might be a. I got a community thing that pops up lucky like as opposed. To what an angry revolution. It might have a positive effect of offering us animal. Are you telling me that if the right person stood up and called for us to sacrifice p p for our nurses and are the air I am. These were on the front lines that, like people wouldn't

reach down deep in their own supply, that they have been like stalking and carefully storing them just to say here? Take it like right now, an actual leader would use this time to bring out the heroic character and I'm gonna just go wildly patriotic The friggin love this country. We ve got this dormant population in the? U s that loves leadership and country and pray add in our freedom and not being told what to do, and we still have this thing that binds together and all of them, the merchants of division just be gone I totally agree with you there, sir. I think there is a deep hunger for that leadership. Why his neck

why. Why hasn't one of we don't have the right surgeon general. We have, as guys saying you know, come on guys, don't buy masks, they don't really work for you, ve saved them for health care professionals. No, you can't do that. you have to say, you know what these masks actually do work and they more work to protect other people from you, but they would work for you they'll! Keep you somewhat safer. If you wear them, here's the deal. You've got somebody who's taking huge amounts of viral load all the time because the patients are shedding. Do you wanna, protect that person has volunteered to be on the front line? Is up sleepless nights? He he just changed the message. You stop lying to people, you trust and you level with them. It's like it's bad, absolutely, but that's a that's! A little bit specific, so you you have to be just honest about the facts of this.

Duration. Yes, I think you are referring to something bigger than just that, yes inspiring, like you know, rewriting the constitution, so rethinking how we work as a nation. Yeah de guiche probably need to amend the constitution once or twice in a lifetime, so that, if you don't get this distance from the foundational documents and in a part of the problem, is that we ve got two generations on top that feel very connected to the? U s they feel bought in and we ve got three generations below it. It's a little bit like watching your parents, writing the tricycle that they were supposed to pass on to you, and it's like you are now too old to write a traceable, and there still

open it up ringing the bell with the streamers coming off the handlebars and you're. Just thinking, do you guys never get bored? Do you never pass a torch? Do you really want it? We had five sept, a generic ones, all born in the forties running for president, the united states. When closure dropped out, the youngest was warren. We had Warren Biden, Sanders Bloomberg and trump from, like nineteen, forty, nine to nineteen, forty one all who have been the the oldest president at inauguration and nobody's nobody says: grandma grandpa you're, embarrassing us except Joe, let me put her on you. You have a big platform you're, someone of an intelligent eloquent guy one. What role do you somewhat world? Do you play why Aren't you that leader or you're I mean I would argue that you're in in ways becoming that leaders, I haven't taken enough risk that your idea, what.

I do or say at the moment now you're a little bit now. You have taken quite big risks and we'll talk about it by your also. On the outside, shooting in meaning you're dismantling the institution from the outside, as opposed to becoming what these detention You remember that thing you brought up when you were on the view that here I'm sorry when you were on Oprah in didn't make I didn't get the info are when you were on bill mars programme. What was that thing? You say

they don't know were here, they may watch us yeah. They may quietly to us slippers and direct message, but they pretend that this internet thing is some dangerous place where only lunatics play. What who has the bigger platform? The porto or bill mars programme are the view bill. Martin, the view in terms of your ship or in terms of was the metric of satellite. First of all, the key thing is

take it take a newspaper and it even imagine that it's completely fake, ok and then there is very little in the way of circulation. Yet imagine that it's an hundred year old paper and that it still part of this game, this internal game of media. The key point is that those sources that have that kind of mark of respectability to the institutional structures matter in a way that, even if I say something in a very large platform, that makes a lot of sense if its outside of what I have called the gated institutional narrative origin, it sort of doesn't make matter to the institutions so that

aim is, if it happens outside of the club. We can pretend that it never happened. How can you get the credibility and authority from outside the the gated institutional narrative I'm, but first of all to you, you and I both share institutional credibility coming from our association, so you we were both at mit his. We would harvard at any point: nope, okay, well and lived in harvard square. So did I, but you know at some level that the issue isn't whether you have credentials in that sense, the key quest she is, can you be trusted to file a flight plan and not deviate from that flight? and when you are in an interview situation, will you stick to the talking point? I will not. and that's why you're not going to be allowed in the general carr

the station which amplifies these sentiments, but I'm still trying to see your point. It would be that we're blessing, but. So you've done how many Joe rogan or four I've done for two right, so both of us are somewhat frequent guests. The show is huge, you know the powers well as I do, and people are going to watch this conversation. A huge number watched our last one by the way that I want to thank you for that, one. That was a terrific terrific conversation really did change my life lex you're, my life you're, brilliant!

if you are so. Thank you care of those that you changed my life too, that you gave me a chance so I'll sooner I'm so glad I did that one. What I would say is is that we keep mistaking how big the audiences for, whether or not you have the kiss and the kisses a different thing, kiss yourself or what doesn't it's not an acronym? Yet ok, it's a thank you for asking it's a question of. Are you part of the inter interoperable institution friendly discussion and that's the discussion which we ultimately have to break into that's what I'm trying to get at is how do we had he? How does Eric Weinstein become become the of the assets motion become the president of the united states, not interested? Thank you very much for us. Ok get into our leadership position where I guess I don't know what that means, but we can inspire millions of people to on the inside

I have a sense of community inspire the the kind of actions required to overcome hardship, the kind of hardship that we may be experiencing to inspire people to work hard and face the def got hard facts of the realities relieving through all those guys are things that you are talking about, that leader. You cannot leader, emerge from the current institutions or

Alternatively, Canada also emerged from the outside. I guess that's what I was asking so my belief is, is that this is the last hurrah for the elderly centrist kleptocrats. Can you define each of those terms, okay, elderly people who were born at least a year before? I was that's a joke. You can laugh now because I born at the cusp of the gen x, boomer, divide and centrist they're pretending you know that there are two parties, democrat and republican party in the united states. I think it's easier to think of the mainstream of both of them as part of a an aggregate party that I sometimes called the looting party, which gets us to kleptocracy, which is real

by thieves and the great temptation has been to treat the. U s like a trough, and you just have to get yours, because it's not like we're doing anything, productive, so everybody's, a sort of losing the family mansion and somebody stole the silver somebody's cutting. The pictures out of the frames in roughly speaking, were watching our elders full of it up in a way that doesn't make sense to the rest of us ok case of his, let the last hurrah This is the time for your step up like I'm, not ready yet who not reality really. I call I call out you know this headed the cdc. Should resign should resign that the surgeon general should resign trumped should resign. Pelosi should resign. de blasio should but they're not going to resign. I understand that so that is what so we're we'll wait. No, but that, as our revolution's work, he don't wait for people to resign. You a step up

and inspire the alternative. Do you remember the russian revolution in nineteen o seven before my time, but there wasn't a russian revolution and later in the year, Thank you warn that your sound that I'm saying were to work you too early, but we got this in us. Bashful came in seventeen eighty, and so I would argue that a lot of parallels there were there were one. I think it's not time yet, like John Prine, the the the songwriter just died of kovac has a pretty big, really yeah by the way you yes, of course, I ah every every time we do this, or we discover

are our mutual appreciation of obscure brilliant witty right. When he's really he's really quite good right, he's he's really good yeah he died. My understanding is that he passed recently due to complications of chronic, so we haven't had large enough enough large ink large enough shocking deaths, yet picturesque deaths, deaths of a family that couldn't get tree. But there are stories that will come and break our hearts and we have not had enough of those the visuals haven't come in, but I think they're coming well we'll find out, but that you gotta you have to be there have to be there when they come in yet, but we did get the visual, for example, of falling man for nine eleven may so the outside world did but americans were not. It was thought that we would be to die

like it. So just the way you remember pulitzer prize winning photographs from the vietnam era. You don't easily remember the photographs from all sorts of things that have happened since, because something changed in Armenia, we're incense that we cannot feel or. Sperience, our own lives and the tragedy. would animate us to action, and, but I think there again, I think, there's going to be that suffering. That's going to build and build and build in terms of businesses, mom and pop shops, a close, and I think I think for myself. I think often like that, I'm being weak, and- and I feel like I should be doing something that should be becoming a lead on a small scale. You can't this is not world war too, and this is not soviet russia. Why not? I not, but he has

our internal programming, the malware that sets between our ears is much different. The propaganda is malware. Of the soviet era mean people were both very indoctrinated and also knew that it was bs. They added a double mind I dunno there must be a great word in russian for being able to think both of those things simultaneously. You don't think people are actually sick of the partisanship sick of incompetence yeah, but I called for revolt the other day on Joe rogan people found it quixotic, while because I think, I think revolt is different. I think ass thy gum. You can really angry you, I'm I'm furious. I cannot stand that this is my country. At the moment, I am embarrassed, does build up a better one year. It that's the. I mean

Ok, so well, ok about it! I got something s almost got over a few universities, but let's start running indifferent experiment at some of our betters anniversaries like when I did this experiment. I said what is this If this were forty years ago, the median age, I believe of a university president, was fifty one that would have the person in gen x and we'd have a bunch of millennial presidents, a bunch of you know how more than half gen x. It's almost one hundred per cent baby boom at this point, and how did that happen, we can get into how they changed retirement, but this generation above us does not feel for even even the older generous silent center. I had roger penrose on my

akram. I have some caution and I think you really appreciate that, and I asked him. The question was very important to me. I said: look you're in your late eighties. Is there anyone you could point to as a successor that we should be watching, we can get excited yeah. I said here's an opportunity to pass the baton he said. Well, let me let me hold off on that alright This is an ever the right moment to point to somebody younger than you to keep your flame alive after your guy and all like, I dunno with it. I'm just gonna admitted as people treat me like I'm crazy for caring about the world after him dead. Or or wine to be remembered after your gun what does it matter to you? You're gone if this deeply sort of secular semantic perspective on everything where we don't. You know that phrase in as time goes by and says it still. This same old story, a fight for love and glory k serve to her. I dont think people

Imagine then that there wouldn't be a story about fighting for love and glory and like we are so out of practice about fighting, in arrivals for love and end and in fighting for glory and something bigger than yourself. But the hunger is there well. That was the point then right. The whole idea is that rick was you know he was like han solo of his time he's just like. I stick I neck out for nobody, you know it's like. Oh come on, rick you're, just pretending you actually have a big soul right and so at some level. That's the question: do we have a big solid or is it just all bullshit see? I think I think, there's huge manhattan project style projects, whether you're talking about physical infrastructure or going to mars. You know the spacex

ass, her efforts or huge, hugh scientific efforts or any other giving back into the institutions, and we need to remove the weak leadership that we have weak leaders in the week. Leaders need to be removed and they need to seat people more danger, then the people who are currently sitting in a lot of those chairs are build new institutions. Good luck! While I, though one of the nice things of our from the internet, is, for example, somebody like you can have a bigger voice than almost anybody at the particular institutions were talking about. That's true, but the thing is, I might say something you can count on the fact that the you know provost at princeton, isn't going to say anything what he meant to to afraid. Well, if, if that person were to give an interview, how are things going and in in research at princeton? Well, I'm hesitant to say it, but they're

Apps as good as they've ever been, and I think they're going to get better, oh, is that right all fields yep, I don't see a weak one and that's just like okay great who are you and what do you even say we're just used to total nonsense? Twenty four seven yeah? What do you think might be a beautiful thing that comes out of this like what is our hope that, like a little inkling little fire of hope, you have about our time right now, yeah. I think one thing is coming to understand that the freaks weirdos mutants and other near dwells. Some has referred to as gryffens like that. One gryphus and gadflies were very

in the earliest people on the kind of hours. That's really interesting question: why was there and it seems to be that they had already paid such a social price, that they weren't going to be beaten up by being told that, oh, my god, you're ceta phobic, you just hate china or, while you some a conspiracy there S. So if you already paid those prices, you're free to think about this in every one in an institutional framework, was terrified that they didn't want to be seen as the alarmist thee chicken little and so that's why? You have this confidence where you know laws says get on with your lives, get back in there and celebrate chinese new year in chinatown, despite corona virus like ok really. So

you just always thought everything would automatically be okay, if you, if you adapted sorry if you adopted that past, so you think this time reveals the weakness of our institutions and reveals the strength of our gadflies and the weirdos in the know not necessary the strength, but the the the the value of freedom like a different way of saying it would be wow. Even your gadflies and your grifters were able to beat your institutional folks, because your institutional folks were playing with a giant mental handicap. So just imagine like we were in the story of Harrison bergeron by Vonnegut and their smartest people were all subjected to

two distracting noises every seven seconds, while they would be functionally much dumber because they couldn't continue a thought through all the disturbance. So in some sense that's a little bit like what belonging to an institution is. Is that if you have to make a public statement, of course, the surgeon general's going to be the worst cause they're there, if they're, just playing with too much of a handicap there, too many institutional players really don't screw us up, and so the person has to say something wrong. We're going to back propagate a falsehood- and this is very interesting. Some of my socially oriented friends say Eric. I don't understand what you're on about, of course, masks work, but you know what they're trying to do they're trying to get us not to up the masts for the doctors and I think ok, so you imagine that we can just create scientific fiction at will so that you can run whatever social programme. You want this when I We get out of my lamp get out of the lab, Don't belong in the lab, you're not meant for the lab, your constitutionally incapable of

Randal up, you need to leave the lap. You think this easy and a veto knew the masks, work and we're trying to sort of imagine that people are kind of stupid and they would buy masks and in an access if they were told at masks work. Is that I got cause? This does seem to be a particularly clear example of mistakes made you're asking you. This quantity am now Yonah. What do you think. While I actually probably disagree with you a little bit great, let's do it. I think it's not so easy to be honest with the populace. When the danger of panic is always around the corner, so I think the kind of honesty you exhibit appeals to a certain class of brave intellectual mine.

That appeals to me, but I don't know from the perspective of a joke- I don't know if it's so obvious- that they should be honest, two hundred percent of the time with people, I'm not saying you should be perfectly transparent and one hundred percent honest, I'm saying that the quality of your lies has to be very high and asked right public spirit. That is easier big difference between sorry, I'm not I'm not a child about this, not saying that when you're at war, for example, you turn over all of your plans to the enemy, because it's important that you're transparent with three hundred and sixty degree visibility far from it. What I'm saying is something has been forgotten and I forgot who it was, who told it to me. There was a fellow graduate student in the harvard

at the apartment, and he said you know I learned one thing being out in the workforce, because he was one of the few people who had a work life in the department as a grad student- and he said you can be friends with your boss. But if you're going to be friends with your pos, you have to be doing a good job at work and Does it analogue here, which is, if you're going to be reasonably honest with the population. You have to be doing a good job of work as the surgeon general or as the head of the cdc. So if you're doing a terrible job you're supposed to resign and then The next person's supposed to say. Look, I'm not going to lie to you. I inherited the situation. It was in a bit of disarray and but I had several requirements before I agreed to step in and

the job, because I needed to know I could turn it around. I needed to know that I had clear lines of authority. I needed to know that I had the resources available in order to rectify the problem, and I needed to know that I had the ability and the freedom to level with the american people directly as I saw fit. All of my wishes were added and that's why I'm happy here on Monday morning, I've got my sleeves rolled up boy. Do we got a lot to do so? Please come back into and then asked me how I'm doing then- and I hope to have something to show you that's how you do it. So why is that excellence and basic competence missing the big net? You see you come from multiple traditions, where it was very important to remember are things the soviet tradition made sure that you remembered the sacrifices that came in that war and the jewish tradition. We're doing this on pass off right, ok, Well, every year we tell one simple story: why, Canada,

Different every year, maybe we can have a rotating series of seven, because it's the one story that you need. It's like you know you work with the men in black grip right and that's the last suit that you'll ever need. This is the last or that you ever need dont, think I fell for your normalized last time. But in any event, we tell one story, because, if the at a dodge story, there's a time when you need to not wait for the the bread to rise and that's the thing which is even if you live through a great nap, you deserve to know what it feels like to have to leave everything that has become comfortable and and unworkable. It said that you need you need that tragedy. I imagine to have the tradition of remembering it's sad,

You are to think that, because things have been nice and comfortable means that we can't have great competent leaders, which is kind of the implied statement like can we have great leaders who take big risks, who are who inspire hard work, who deal with difficult? even though things have been comfortable while we know what those people sound like I mean you know if, for example, Jacko willing suddenly, through his hat into the ring, everyone would say, k right,

It is over it's time to get up at four thirty and really work hard and we've got to get back into fighting shape and you have a jocko is a very special. I think that whole group of people by profession put themselves in the way of and into hardship on a daily basis. I and he's not. I, while I dunno but he's probably I'm going to be well could jacko be present had doesn't have to be jack, rightly, in other words, if it was kyle, Lenny or if it was alex hobbled from raw climbing right, but there are serious people, their serious people who can't afford your bs

yeah. But why do we have serious people that do rock climbing? And I don't have serious people who lead the nation that that seems because that was a those skills needed in rock climbing, are not good during the big nap and at the tail end of the big nap they would get you fired, but I don't do don't you think, there's a the fundamental part of human nature that desires to to excel to be exceptionally good at your job. You are. But what is your job? In other words, my my my point to you is, if, if you, if you're a general in a peace time army and your major, it is playing war games. What if the skills needed to win war games, are very different than the skills needed to win wars, because you know how the war games are scored and you you ve done money ball, for example, with war games

he figured out how to win games on paper. So then, the the advancement skill becomes divergent from the ultimate skill that it was proxy for ever you create. Is we're good as human beings to admit that me, I can't do a big now so at any one moment when I finish something a new dream: pops up so right going to mars, goat? What would you like to do you like to do brazilian jujitsu, while four followed? Do every you like to play? Guitar guitar, you do this podcast, you do theory you're. Always your constantly taking risks and exposing yourself right. Why? Because you got one of those crazy, sorry to say it. You gotta eastern european jewish personality, which I'm still tied to and I'm a couple generations more distant than you are, and I ve held onto that thing because its valuable to me,

you don't think, there's a huge per cent of the populace, even in the united states. This, that's that maybe a little but dormant, but didn't do no honour fetch him from the red scare, podcast june of your her yeah yeah yeah yeah, I was yeah yeah. She was great. She was great right, yeah she's, fun, she's she's terrific, but she also has the same thing going on and I emitted joke in the liner notes for that purpose, so, which is such a sum We're on the road from stalingrad to forever twenty one, something with laws like how can stalingrad and forever twenty one being the same sentence, and you know in part it that weird, it's like trying to remember even words like I'm in russian and hebrew things like it's like but palm yet then the score. You know these words have much more potency about memory and I dunno I to adduced. I think, as I think, there's still a dormant populace- that craves leaders

on a small scale, large scale, and I hope to be that leader and on a small scale- and I think you sir, have rule to be a leader? Kids go ahead without me, I'm just gonna, I'm do a weird podcasting scene. I you, we are paying on your jargon hat. He says Just a committee on no nothing, I'm just the other day I say, I want to lead too much because of the big nap. There's like a group, a chorus of automated idiots in there that the first I was like ah new it. It was a power grab all along. Why should you lead you just and so that the ideas you just try a skirt around not stepping on all of the it, landmines like ok. So now, I'm in here that my inbox for the next three days, ok, so lead by example.

Live. No, I'm delighted she might form look we should take over the institutions are institutions, we ve got bad leadership, we should mutiny and we should inject a dollar fifteen percent, twenty percent disagreeable Is it a very aggressive, loner, individual mutant freaks all the people that you gotta see avenging movies about or the X, men or whatever. It is and stop pretending that Anything good comes out of some great giant, inclusive communal twelve hour meeting, stop it it's not how shit happens you recently published a video of a lecture he gave at oxford presenting some aspects of the theory theory of everything, call geometric unity. So this a work of thirty three plus years life's work, the mask

the simple question: how do you feel as a human excited sky? shared the experience of posting. It you're, not funny one of the one of the things that you you learn to fields and academic is the great since you can commit and academics to show yourself to be non serious person to show yourself to have delusions to avoid the standard practices which everyone is signed up for, and you know it's weird because, like you know that those people are gonna angry, he did what. Why would he do that and I were referring to, for example, the traditions of sort of published incrementally, certainly not trying to have theory of everything. Perhaps,

working within the academic departments, although all those things as oh you're going set of all that. Well, I mean I was going inside of all of that and we did not come to terms when I was inside. and what they did was so outside to me was so weird. So freakish like the most senior respectable people at the most senior respectable places, were functionally insane. As far as I could tell again, it's like being functionally stupid if you're the head of the C d c, or something where you know you're you're, giving recommendations out that aren't based on what you actually believe, they're based on what you think you have to be doing. But in some sense I think that that's a lot of how I saw the math and physics world. As the physics world was really crazy in the math world was considerably less crazy, just very strict and kind of dogmatic will psychoanalyze those folks, but I really wonder.

Maybe linger in a little bit longer of how you feel yeah says it's such as such passion mamma. I really appreciate the great question so that if we can pair off some of that, other those other issues, its new being able to say what the observers is, which is my attempt to replace space time, but something that is both closely related to space time and not based on so I used to carry the number fourteen as a closely guarded secret. My life and were fourteen is really four dimensions of space and time, plus ten extra dimensions of rulers and pro tractors or the cool kids out. There are symmetric to tensors. She had geometric a complicated, beautiful, geometric view of the world, the cared with you for a long time. Yeah did you? Did you have friends that you

colleagues, essentially no top now in fact, part of these parties Some of these stories are me coming out to my friends, and I used the phrase coming out, because I think that gaze have monopolize the concept of a closet, and many of us are in closets home having nothing to do with their sexual, yeah. I didn't really feel comfortable talking to almost any one, so this was a closely guarded grit, and I think that I let on in some ways that I was up to something and probably but it was a very weird life. So I d by an element of a series of things that I pretended to care about, so that I could use that is the stocking horse for what I really cared about it. Good point and I never understood this whole thing about theories of everything like if you were going to go into something like theoretical physics. Isn't that what you would normally pursue like? Wouldn't it be crazy to do something that difficult in that poorly paid.

If you were going to try to do something other than figure out. What this is all about, I'll have to reveal my cards on my sort of weeks. Is lacking and an understanding of the music of physics and math apartments, but There's an analogy here to artificial intelligence and often folks come in and say: okay, so there's a giant department working on court on call actual intelligence but wise. Nobody actually working unintelligence like youtube I'll just be building little toys, where you're not actually trying to understand and that breaks a lot of people as they are. Fuses them like ok. So I at mit, I'm at Stanford, I'm at harvard em here I dreamed of being or can our official intelligence

Why is everybody not actually working on intelligence that I have the same kind of sense that that's? What working on the theory of everything is? That's strangely, you somehow become an outcast for even, but we know why this is right. Why? Well it's because, let's take the artifice list was play with a dji, for example. I think that the idea starts off with nobody really knows how to work on that, and so, if we don't know how to work on it, we choose instead to work on a programme. that is tangentially related to its. We do a component of a programme that is related to that big question, because its felt like it at least I can make progress there. And that wasn't where I was where I was in spite of this book of freedom uhland back,

this weird mysterious line in the beginning of it, and I tried to get clarification of this weird mysterious line, and everyone said wrong things, and then I said okay well, so I can tell that nobody's thinking properly, because I just asked the entire department- and nobody has a correct interpretation of this, and so you know it's a little bit like you see a crime scene photo and If you have a different idea like there's a smoking gun in your figure, that's actually a cigarette lighter. I don't really believe that and then there's like a pack of cards than you think whoa. That looks like the blunt instrument that the person was beaten with you know, so you have a very different idea about how things go and very quickly. You realize that there's, no one thinking about them, there's a few human size, this and tactical size, both of which I'd love to try to get down to so the human side. I can tell, from my perspective,

I think, those before April first April, fool's day before I forget, but I was lying in bed in the middle of the night and somehow it popped up you? I am. I feed somewhere that you're beautiful face is speaking alive and I clicked And it was co weird how the universe is, brings things together in this kind of way and also now realise that there's something big happening at this particular moment in a strange like aid. on a day like any day and all of a sudden. You were thinking of yet this somber tone. But you were serious that you are going through some difficult decision, it seems strange. Almost I you maybe joking, but there is a serious decision, may make

and it was a wonderful experience to go through with you. I really appreciate it was April. First yeah. This is kind of fascinating. I mean just the whole experience and and the lit and saw that. I want to ask me to thank you for letting me be part of that kind of journey of decision making that took thirty years. But why now? Why do you think, why did you struggle so long, not release it and decide to release it now? Anna, while the the whole world is on lockdown and April fools, is it just because you like the comedy of absurd ways that the universe comes together? I don't think so. I think that the covert epidemic is the end of the big nap.

and I think that I actually tried this seven years earlier in oxford. So I I- and it was too early, which part was too or is it the the platform cause your plan? a quite different. Now, actually the area- I remember you are- I read several you're, really an answer that people should read for the edge questions. One of them was related to the internet and it was the first one was the first one and as they called go virtual young man. Yet it seemed ass if never go now, though, that was ten years ago, and that's exactly what I did as I decamped to the internet, which is where the portal lives the portal. The portal on the set of the theme are ominous theme. Music was shit

It's listened to forever. I actually started recording a tiny guitar licks for the audio portion, not for the video portion. If you kind of inspire me with that, bringing your guitar into the story, but keep going is the u thoughts of the oxford was like step one, you kind of yet you up put your foot into the in the water descent. But but it was too cold at the time. So you didn't want to step. It was really disappointed. What what was disappointing about that experience? Very it's a hard thing to talk about. It has to do with the fact that, and I can see this is known as mirrors a disappointment within myself. There are two separate issues. One is the issue of making sure that the idea is actually heard and explored, and the other is the. I is the question about. Will I become discs

acted from my work because it will be ridiculed it. It will be immediately improved. It will be found to be derivative of something that occurred in some paper. Nineteen fifty so when the community does not wants you to gain a voice, it's a little bit like a policeman deciding to weirdly and enforced. all these little known, regulations. and you- and you know sometimes nobody else- and I think that's kind of you know this weird thing where I just don't believe that we can reach the final theory necessarily with in the political economy of academics. So if you think about it, how academics are tortured by each other and how they are paid and where they have freedom and where they don't? I actually weirdly think that that system of slack depression is goin to eliminate anybody who is going to make real progress for such things. If you look at tat,

the story of andrew, whilst, for example with the from us, less them. He, as far as I understand he which isolated himself from the world of academics in terms of the big, the bulk of the work he did, and it it from my perspective is dramatic and fun to read about, but it seemed exceptionally stressful. The first step he took the first steps he took when actually making the public that seemed to me will be hell. No, but it's like so artificially dramatic. You know he he leads up to it at a series of lectures. He doesn't want to say it and then he finally says it at the end, because, obviously this comes out of a body of work where I mean the the funny part about from oslo them. As that wasn't originally thought to be deep and meaningful problem, it was just an easy, the state one that had gone unsolved, but if you think about it, it became attached to the body of re

killer theory. So he built up this body of regular theory, gets all the way up to the end. Announces and then like there's this whole drama about okay, somebody's checking, the proof I don't understand. What's going on in line thirty seven, you know and like I was serious, seems a little bit more serious than we knew and medici palace. You share the concern that the your your experience may be something similar, but in his case I think that if I recall correctly, his original proof was unsalvageable. He actually came up with a second proof with a colleague richard taylor, and it was that second proof, he carried the day. So it was a little bit that he got put under incredible pressure and then had to succeed in a new way. Having failed the first. I would just like even a weirder and stranger store S, incredible story

some sense, but I mean. Are you I'm trying to get a sense of the kind of stress? I think that this is ok, but I'm rejecting what I don't think people understand with me is the scale of the critique like. I don't you people say well, you must implicitly agree with this and implicitly agree. not try me ask before you. You decide that I am mostly in agreement with the community about how these things should be handled or what things mean cure. Can you and also why this criticism matter so much here, so you seem to dislike the burden. Criticism that you all choke away all the different kinds of criticism, there's constructive criticism in this district of criticism and what I dont want

it. Is I don't like a community that can't first of all like if you take the physics community. Just the way we screwed up on masks and p p e just the way we screwed up in the financial crisis and mortgage backed securities, we screwed up on string theory. Can we just forget the string theory happened or sure, but lead into somebody should say that right somebody should say you know it didn't work out here by ok, but you you're asking: why do you guys get to keep the prestige after failing for thirty five years, That's an interesting when you guys, because to me under the preferred look these things: if there is a theory of everything to be had right, it's going to be a relatively small group of people where this will be sorted out. Absolutely it's! It's not tens of thousands, it's probably hundreds at the top,

But within that, within the community there is the assholes there's the big, you have you always in this world. Have people who are kind? and I d is it's a question about: let's imagine, for example, that you have a story where you believe. That also are definitely caused by stress and you ve never questioned or maybe, if it felt like. The japanese came out of the blue and attacked us at pearl harbor right now. Somebody introduces a new idea to you, which is like one of it isn't stress at all, or what have we actually tried to make resource starved,

Pan attack us somewhere in the pacific, so we could have cast his bell. I to enter the asian theatre persons original idea like what what are you even say in a thick too crazy? Well, when Iraq in nineteen sixty three talked about, the importance of beauty is a guiding principle in physics, and it wasn't talking about the scientific method that was crazy talk, but he was actually making a great point. He was using schroeder and I think it was turning her was standing in for him and he said that if you equations don't agree with experiment, that's kind of a minor detail. They have true beauty in them. You should explore them because very often the agreement with. Paramount is. It is an issue of fine tuning of your model of the instigation. and so it doesn't really tell you that your model is wrong and, of course, heisenberg told directed model was wrong because that d

the and the electron should be the same ass if they are each other's anti particles, and that was an relevant kind of silliness, rather than it a real threat to the drug theory? But look I some amidst all silliness, I'm hoping we could talk about the journey that geometric unity has taken and will take as an ideal. an idea that will see the light yeah that sulphur thought was I'm thinking of writing a book called geometric unity for aid it's okay and I need you as a consultant. So can we first of all, I hope I have the trademark on geometric unity. You do good. Can you give a basic introduction of the goals of geometric unity, the basic tools of mathematics used of the viewpoints in general for idiots shirk me

It's great fun, so, what's the goal of geometric unity, the goal of geometric unity is to start with something so completely bland that you can simply say. Well, that's the something that begins the game as as close to a mathematical, nothing as possible another. As I can't answer the question, why is there something rather than nothing? But if there has to be a something that we begin from? Let it begin from something that's like a blank canvas, let's even more basic. So what is some then what are we trying to describe? Okay right now we have a model of our world and it's got two sectors. One of the sectors is called general relativity. The other is called the standard model, so we'll call it Gee are for general relativity, and s m for standard model was the difference to what the to describe.

So general relativity gives pride of place to gravity and everything else is acting as a sort of a a back, a backup singer gravity. The star of the show gravity is the star of general relativity and in the standard model, the other three non gravitational forces of their four forces that we know about three of the four, a non gravitational that's where they get to great so time or particles and how they interact with each other, so photons glue ones and so called intermediate vector both zones. Those are the things that the standard model showcases and general activities

cases, gravity, and then you have matter which is accommodated in both theories, but much more beautifully inside of the standard bottle. So what what is a theory of everything do so at that? So, first of all, I think that that's that's! That's the first place where we haven't talked and not. We assume that we know what it means, but we don't actually have any idea what it means and what I claim it is. Is that it's a theory where the questions beyond that theory are no longer of a mathematical nature? In other words, if I say let us take exe, to be a four dimensional manifold to a mathematician or physicist. I've said very little. I've simply said: there's some place for calculus and linear algebra to to dance together and to play, and that's what manifolds arthur

most natural place where that, where two greatest math theories can really intertwine, which are there to all in the attackers linear out, ok. Now the question is beyond that. So sort of saying I'm an artist and I want to order a canvas now. The question is: does the canvas paint itself does the cat? Does the canvas come up with an artist in a in in paint and ink, which then paint the canvas? Like? That's the that's the hard part about these, If everything which I don't think people talk enough about cookie cuing, just you bring up that usher. In the end the hand that draws itself as the fire that lights itself or drawing hands the drawing hands yeah and every time. I start to think about that my mind, but like shuts down you don't do that if it does a spark and others,

is the most beautiful part. We shall do that you'd, rather, nice is beautiful, but this robots brain sparks fly as We try to say the same thing over and over in different ways about what What do you mean by that? Have to be a thing? We have to contend with sure Why? Why do you think that understood creating a theory of everything? As you call the source code, our understanding our source code require a view like the hand, the drowsy itself? It were here's. What goes on the regular physics picture. We ve got these to meet me in there, is general relativity and standard model right. Think of general, activity is more or less the theory of the canvas. Okay, maybe you have the canvas in a particularly rigid shape. Maybe you've measured it. So it's got length and it's got angle, but more or less it's just canvas and length.

Angle and that's all that's really. General activity is, but it allows the canvas to warp a bit. Then we have the second thing, which is this import of foreign libraries, where it which are tied to space and time. So we ve got this crazy set of cemeteries called ass. You three process you to crush you one. We ve got this collection of sixteen particles in a generation which are these of twisted spinners, and we ve got three copies of them. Though we ve got this weird higgs field that comes in and like days ex machina solve all the problems that have been created in the play that can't be resolved

otherwise that's the standard model, quantum field theory just plopped on top, yet it as can problem of the double origin story, one origin stories about space and time, the other origin stories about what we would call internal quantum numbers and internal cemeteries and then there was an attempt to get one to follow from the other called kaluza klein theory which didn't work out, and this is sort of in that vein. So he said origin. story. So, in the hand that draws itself, what is it? So it's it's as if you had the canvas. And then you ordered up also give me paint brushes, paints, pigments, pencils and artists, but you're saying that, like if you want to create a universe from scratch, the canvas should be generating the paintbrush in the paint brushes they are doing the canvas. The right, like usually who's, the artisans analogy with this is so,

Then what will you do a religious thing? I did it look at what we, as you know, my stick, which that we are the a I. We have two great stories about the simulation and artificial general intelligence. In one story, man fears that some programme we have given birth to will become self aware, smarter than us, and will take over In another story, there genius simulators and we live in their simulation We have realised that those two stories of the same story in one case we are the simulator another case where the simulated and if you by those who put them together. We are the asia I and whether or not we have simulators. We may be trying to wake up. by learning our own source code, so this could be our skynet moment, which is one of the reasons I have some issues around. I think we'll talk about that guy.

But as the issue of the emergent artist within the story, he has just to get back to the point. Okay, so so now. The key point is the standard way we tell the story is that einstein sets the can this and then we order all the stuff that we want and then that paints the picture. That is our universe, so he ordered the the paint you ordered the artist you order the brushes and that then, when you collide, the two gives you two separate origin stories. The canvas came from one place.

and everything else came from somewhere else. So what are the mathematical tools required to to construct consistent geometric theory? You know make this concrete, while somehow you need to get three copies, for example, of generations, with sixteen particles each rank, and so the question would be like well, there's a lot there's a lot of special personality in those cemetery, Where would they come from? So, for example, you ve got what would be called grand unified theories that sound like as you five the george. I clash our theory there, something that should be called spin. Ten, but physicist, insist on calling it s. So ten there's something called the petty salaam theory that tends to be called as you for processing

across, as you too should be called spin six crossbench four for I get into all these now. What what they all accomplishing they're all. Picking the known forces that we see and packaging them up to say we? We kick get rid of the second origin story, but we can at least make that origin story more unified, so they're trying grand unification as the attempt to that's a mistake and you're in for a mistake that the one mrs it was born lifeless when, when george I and glashow offers came out with ie as you five theory, it was very exciting because it can be tested in south dakota. Have mine filled up with, like I dunno cleaning fluid or something like that, and they looked for proton, decaying, didn't see it and then they gave up because in in that day, when your experiment didn't work, you gave up on the theory. It didn't come to us, born of a fusion between einstein and and and bore you

and that was kind of the problem. Was it had this weird parenting where it was just on the boer side? There was no einsteinian contribution lex. How can I help you most treasure? What questions you want to ask so that the most satisfying answers? There's there's a there's, a bunch. There's a bunch of questions. I want to ask anyone and I'm trying to sneak up on you somehow to reveal in accessible way then the nature of our universe. So I can just give you a guess right. Okay, we have to be very careful that we're not claiming that this has been accepted. This is a speculation, but I will I will make the speculation that what I think what you would want to ask me is: how can the canvas generate all the stuff that usually has to be ordered separately? Hunch? We do that, let's go there, okay, so the first thing is: is that you have

the concept in computers called technical, that your coding any cut corners, and you know you're gonna- have to do it right before the thing is safe for the world, but your piling up sums series of I o used to yourself in your project as you're going along. So the first thing is we can't figure out if you have only four degrees of freedom and that's what you're canvas is. How do you get at least Einstein's world einstein said: look it's not just for

It is a freedom, but there need to be rulers and protractor to measure length and angle in the world. You can't just have a flabby four degrees of freedom, so the first thing you do is you create ten extra variables which is like if we can't choose any particular set of rulers and protractor to measure length and angle, let's take the the set of all possible rulers and protractor, and that would be called symmetric, non degenerate to tensors on the tangent space of the form manifold x

now? Because there are four degrees of freedom. You start off with four dimensions, then you need four rulers for each of those two different directions: that's four that gets us up to eight variables and then between four original variables. There are six possible angles, so four plus four plus six is equal to fourteen. So now you've replaced X, four with another space which, in the lecture, I think I called you fourteen are now calling Y fourteen is one of the big problems of working on something in private. As every time you pull it out, you sort of can't. Remember it. You name something something new okay, so you've got a fourteen dimensional world, which is the origi in a four dimensional world, plus a lot of extra gadgetry for measurement and because you're, not in the four dimensional world, you don't have. The technical debt is known

You ve got a lot of technical that we could now you have to explain away fourteen dimensional world, which is a big you taking a huge advance on your payday check, but aren't more dimensions. Allow you more freedom to eat, maybe, but you have to get rid of them somehow, because we don't perceive them so vent. You have to class it down to the the thing that we perceive you as the sample. A four dimensional filament within that fourteen dimensional world, known as a section of a bundle. okay. So how do we get from the fort fourteen dimensional world, where I imagine a lot of photos where we wait yep you're, cheating? The first question was: how do we get something from almost nothing like? How do we get the if I have said that the who, in the what in the newspaper story, that is a theory of everything, are both zones and firm, yawns, so

the who the firm eons and the what the bosun think of is the players in the equipment for a game? Are we supposed to be thinking of actual physical things with master our energy okay? So they think about everything you see in this room. So from chemistry you know it's all protons neutrons and electrons, but from a little bit of late. Nineteen sixties physics. We know that the protons neutrons are all made up corks and down corks, so everything

in this room is basically up corks down corks and electrons, stuck together with with the the what the equipment. Okay. Now the way we see it currently is we see that there are space time indices, which we would call spinners that correspond to the who. That is, the fermi on the matter, the stuff, the upcourt, the down quarks the electrons, and there are also and sixteen degrees of freedom that come from this in this space of internal quantum numbers. So in my theory, in fourteen dimensions, there's no internal quantum number space, the figures it it's all, just spin, Oreo says spinners in fourteen dimensions. Without any

The with extra linear, algebraic information, there's a concept of end of of spinners which is natural. If you have a manifold with length and angle and why fourteen is almost a manifold width length and angle, it's it's so close. It's in other words, because you're looking at the space of all rulers and protractor is maybe it's not that surprising that a space of rulers and protractor might come very close to having rulers and pro tractors on it itself. Like can you measure the space of measurements, and you almost can't and in a space that has length and angle if it doesn't have a topological obstruction comes with these objects called spinners now spinner,

is, are the stuff of of our world. We are made of spinners. They are the most important, really deep object that I can tell you about. They were very surprising. What is the spinner so famously? There are these weird things that require seven hundred and twenty degrees of rotation in order to come back to normal and that doesn't in this sense and be the reason for this is that there is a nodded nests in our three dimensional world. The people don't observe, and you know you can famously see it by this directive.

String tricks. If you take a glass of water. Imagine that this was a tumbler and they didn't want to spill any of it. And the question is, if I rotate and the cup, without losing my grip on the base, three hundred and sixty degrees, and I can't go backwards. Is there any way? I can take a sip? And the answer is this weird motion which is go over first and under second and that that seven hundred and twenty degrees of rotation I'm back to normal, so that I can take a sip while that weird principle, which sometimes is known as the philippine wine glass dance because waitresses in the philippines Learn how to do this that that move defines. If you will this hidden space that nobody knew was there of spinners, which derive figured out when he took the square root of something called the climb garden equation.

Which I think had earlier work in incorporated from cartel and killing in company. mathematics, so spinners are one of the most profound aspects of human existence, and forgive me for that perhaps done questions, but what is be the mathematical objects that the basic unit of our universe, when you, when you start with the manifold, which is it's like something like a donut or a sphere or circle or a mobius band. A spinner is usually the first wildly surprising thing that you've found was hidden in your original purchase. So you you order manifold and you didn't even realize it's like buying a house and finding a panic room inside that you hadn't counted up it's very soon.

Rising when you understand that spinners are running round on your spaces, again, perhaps dumb question, but we're talking about fourteen dimensions and four dimensions. What is the manifold were operating under my case, its protest space time it's before its before einstein consent. Rulers and pro tractors on space time. What you mean by that site interrupt is space. Time is the forty manifold space time is a four dimensional manifold with extra structure must yes restructure its called im, semi, romani and or pseudo romani and metric in. In essence, there is something akin to a four by four symmetric matrix from which is equivalent to to length and angle. So when I talk about rulers and protractor,

When I talk about lengthened angle or I talk about romanian or pseudo romanian or semi romanian met manifolds, I'm I'm usually talking at the same thing. can you measure how long something is and what the angle is between two different rays are vectors. So that's what einstein gave us as his arena his place to play his and his canvas so that there's a bunch of questions. I can ask her but, like I said, I'm working on this book geometric geometrically radiates, and I think what would be really nice As your editor to have like beautiful, Maybe even visualization that people could try to play will try to try to reveal small little beauties about the way

you're thinking about this are usually use the european programme. For that sometimes I have him doing the philippine wine glass dance. I had the hop vibration. The part of the problem is that most people don't know this language about spinners, bundles, metrics, gauge fields, and they're very curious about the theory of everything, but they have no understanding of even what we know about our own world. Is it? Is it a hopeless pursuit so, like even gauge theory right just this, I mean it seems to be very inaccessible. Is there some aspect of it that can be made accessible and accurate? the board right there and give you a five minute lecture engaged theory that would be better than the official lecture engage their unit. You would know what gauge theory was so it is. It is possible to make it accessible, yeah but met nobody does like, in other words, you're gonna watch over the next year, lots of different discussions.

quantum entanglement or in the multi verse, where are we now or ina many worlds? Are they all equally real did the right I mean yeah. That does help, but you're not gonna, hear anything about the hop vibration, except if it's from me and I hate that Y Y key you be the one, but because I am going a different path. I think that we made a huge mistake which, as we have things we can show people about the actual models We can push out visualization where they do not. Listening by analogy, they're, watching the same thing that we're seeing and as I've said to you before. This is like choosing to perform sheet music that hasn't been performed in a long time or you know the experts can't afford orchestras, so they just trade bait. Eleven symphonies and as sheet music, this oh wow, that was beautiful, but it's like nobody heard anything. They just looked at the score. Well, that's how mathematicians and physicists trade papers and ideas is that they they write down the things

it represents stuff. I want to at least close out the thought line that you started. Yes, which is: how does the canvas order all of this other stuff into being, as I at least say some incomprehensible things about that, and then we'll we'll have that much done right and that just point, does it have to be incomprehensible? Do you know what the schrodinger equation is? Yes, do you know what the dirac equation is. What what is no mean. While my point is you're gonna have some. Feeling that you know at the shredder repression as soon as we get to the dirac equation, your eyes, are gonna get a little bit clay. Is that right. so now. Why is that? While the answer to me is that you, you want to ask me about the theory of everything but haven't even digest, the fury of

everything as we ve had it since nineteen twenty eight, when direct came out with his equation, so For whatever reason- and this isn't a hit on- you you haven't been motivated enough. In all the time you ve been on earth to at least get as far as the direct equipped and this was very interesting to me after I gave the talk in oxford, new scientist, who had done kind of a hatchet job on me to begin with, sent a reporter to come to the third version of the talk that I gave and that person had never heard of the dirac equation. So you have a person who who's completely professionally, not qualified. To ask these questions wanting to know. Well, how does how does how does your theory solve new problems like well, The case of the derogatory will tell me about that. I don't know what that is. So then the point is ok, I got it you're not even caught up.

Minimally to where we are now and that's not on you, almost nobody is, but how does it become my job to digest what has been available for like over ninety years. What to me, the open question is whether what's been away, before over ninety years can be. There could be a blueprint of a journey that one takes to understand it not One issue that with you and I I one of them. I think I've been relatively successful at, for example, you know when you ask other people. What gauge theory is you get these very confusing responses and my response is much simpler. It's, oh, it's the theory of differentiation where, when you calculate the instantaneous rise over run, you measure- the rise not from a flat horizontal but from a custom endogenous reference level.

What do you mean by that like okay, and then I do this thing with mount everest, which is of rest, is how high then they give the height as above what then they say, sila What can I say, which c is that in nepal like how I guess there isn't a c cause? It's landlocked like okay? Well, what do you mean by sea level? Oh there's, this thing called the geoid I'd never heard of. Oh that's the reference level. It's accustomed, reference level that we imported. So you all sorts of people have remembered the exact height of mount everest without ever knowing what it's a height from. Well, in this case engaged theory, there's a hidden reference level where you measure the rise in rise over run. To give this, below line. What, if you have different concepts of what

Of where that rise should be measured from that very within the theory that are endogenous to the theory: that's what gates there is. Ok, we have a video here right I mean he is my phone. I want a measure, my hand and its slope. This is my attempt to measure it using. standard calculus. In other words, the reference level is apparently flat, and I measure the rise above that phone using my hand. Ok, if I want to use its theory, it means I can do this. I can do that. I can do this or I can do this or I could do it. I did from the region. Ok, at some level. That's what game theory is now that is an act now. I've never heard any one described it that way. So, while the community may say well, who is this guy, and why does he have the right to talk in public? I'm waiting for somebody to jump out of the woodwork and say you know: Eric's, whole shtick about rulers and pro tractors.

Leading to a derivative derivatives are measured as rise of run. Above reference level, reference of suffered to get like I got through this whole stick in order to make it accessible. I've never heard any one said I'm trying to make. The prometheus would like to discuss fire with everybody else I'm going to just say one thing to close out the earlier line, which is what I think we should have continued with when you take the naturally occurring spinners, the unadorned spinners, the naked spinners, not only on this fourteen dimensional manifold, but on something very closely tied to it, which I've called the kamerick tangent bundle. That is the object which stands in for the thing that should have head length and angle on it. But just missed came when you take that object and you form spinners on there and you don't adorn them so you're still in the single origin story. You get very large spinelli,

objects upstairs on this fourteen dimensional world. Why fourteen, which is part of the observers? When you pull that information back from why fourteen down to x, for it miraculously, looks like the adorned spinners, the festooned spin, where's the spinners that we play with an ordinary reality. In other words, the fourteen dimensional world looks like a four dimensional world, plus a ten dimensional compliment so templates for equals. Fourteen

that ten dimensional complement, which is called a normal bundle, generates spin properties, internal quantum numbers that look like the things that give our per our particles personality then make and let's say up corks and down corks charged by negative. One third are plus two thirds. You know that kind of stuff or whether or not I e you know some corks feel the weak force and other quirks do not so the x four generates Y fourteen y fourteen generate something called the kamerick tangent bundle. Kamerick tangent bundle generates an a.

And spinners the unadorned spinners get pulled back from fourteen down to four, where they look like adorned spinners and we have the right number of them. You thought you needed three you only got to, but then something else that you'd never seen before broke apart on this journey and it broke into another copy of the thing that you already have two copies of one piece of that thing broke off. So now you have two generations, plus an impostor third generation, which is.

I don't know why we never talk about this possibility in regular physics, and then you got a bunch of stuff that we haven't seen, which has descriptions. So people always does it make any false, viable predictions. Yes, does it says that the matter that you should be seeing next has particular properties that can be read off like like a week. I suspect we caper charge like the responsiveness to the strong force, the one. I can't tell you what energy scale happen it failed If the EU can save those characteristics can be detected with the current. It may be that somebody else can I'm not a physicist, I'm not a quantum field. There again, I dont know how you would do that that the hope for me is that there is some simple explanations for all of it lecture. We have a drink, your having fun

no I'm trying to have fun with you. You know, there's a bunch of fun things which are not used to talk about. You very well. That was how I got what I thought you wanted wishes, if you think about the firm yawns as the artists, in the bows on as the brushes and the paint. What I told you is that's how we get the artist's. What are the open questions for you in this war or where the challenges so you're not done well there's the things that I would like to have a better order, so a lot of people will say so the reason I hesitate on is I'd rather have totally different view than the community. So, for example, I leave the general relativity again in nineteen thirteen with einstein engrossment. That was the first of like four major papers in this line of thinking.

To most physicists general activity happen when Einstein produced a dirt divergence, free gradient, which turned out to be the gradient of the of the so called gilbert or einstein, halbert action, and, from my perspective that wasn't true, as is that it began when einstein said left. This is about a differential geometry, and it's got, the final answer is going to look like a curvature, tensor on one side and matter and energy on the other side, and that was enough. published a wrong version of it? Where was the reaching tensor, not the einstein tensor than it corrected the reached.

the reach utensil to make it into the einstein. Answer then corrected that to add a cause, malagigi constant. I can't stand that the community thinks in those terms, there's some things about which, like that there's a question at which contraction do I use there's an einstein, contraction, there's a reach contracts. They both go between the same spaces. I'm not sure what I should do. which contraction I should choose. This is called a she of operator for ship in a bottle and my stuff, you have this big platform In many ways that inspires people's curiosity about physics, mathematics right now- and I am one of those people and great-

But then you start using a lot of whores. They don't understand and or I might know them, but I don't understand and what's unclear to me if I'm supposed to be listening to those words or if it's just. If this is one of those technical things, that's intended for a very small community or if I'm supposed to actually take those words and start a multi year study, not not a serious study but the kind of study when you urine. Learning about machine learning, for example, or any kind of discipline. That's why I'm a little bit confused, so you you ve, speed, beautiful lie about ideas. You often reveal the beauty in mathematics, geometry and and and clear in what are the steps I should be taking I'm curious, how can I explore how can play with something? How can a play with ease

It is well and enjoy the beauty of not sir anything, the depth of the authority, your presenting but start a share in the beauty, as opposed to sharing and enjoying the beauty of just the way. The passion with which you speak, which is in itself fun to listen to, but also signed to build, understand some aspects of this theory there I can enjoy it too. and start to build an intuition. What the heck wave in talking about is your basically saying me to throw a lot of our ideas of of views of the universe out and I'm trying to find excess boys and ok long, not in this conversation, nor appreciate so one of the things that I've done as I have picked on one paragraph from edward whip

and I said this is the paragraph four. If I could I take one paragraph with me: this is the one eyed take and it's almost all in prose, not an equation. His look. This is this is our knowledge of the universe at its deepest level, and it was raining this during the nineteen eighties and he has three separate points. The constitute our deepest talent and those three points refer to equations one to the einstein thank equation? Wonder that iraq equation and wonder the Yang mills maxwell equation now? One thing I would do is take a look at that paragraph and Ok, what do these three lines me? I guess finite amount of verbiage? You can write that every word that you don't know you can say what do I think done now, yes, there is a beautiful wall in stony broke new york,

by someone who I know you will interview named Jim silence and Jim silence. If he's not the artist, is the guy funded air world's greatest hedge manager and on that wall contain the three equations that witten refers to in that paragraph, and so that is the transmission from the paragraph or graph. to the war now that wall needs and owners manual which roger penrose has written called the road to reality. Let's call that the tone, so this is the subject of the so called graph wall, tome, project that is going on in our discord server and our general group around the portal community, which is how do you take something that purports in one paragraph to say what the deepest understanding man has of the universe

which he lives its memorialize on a wall which nobody knows about, which is an incredibly gorgeous piece of of art, and that was written up in a boy. which is has been written for no man, maybe maybe for woman- I don't know, but no no one should be able to read this book because either professional- and you know a lot of this book, in which case it's kind of a refreshing to see how roger thinks about these things, were you don't even know that this book is a self contained invitation to us? standing our deepest nature, so I would say, find yourself in the graph wall, tome, transmission sequence and joined the graph walt home project if that's of interest, Ok beautiful, not just filling a little longer what kind of journey dc geometric gaiety taking! I don't know I mean that's. The thing is the first one:

The professional community has to get very angry and outraged and they have to work through their feelings. This is nonsense. This is bullshit or like no wait a minute. This is really cool. Actually, I need some clarification over here. So there's going to be some sort of weird coming, back together process, which I already hearing, murmurings of that was very funny, officially I've seen very little to it's perhaps happening quietly. Do you you often talk about when you to get off this planet? It can't try to sneak up on there by asking what, in your kind of view, is the difference. between the science of it theory and the actual engineering of building something that leverages theory to do something like how big is that we don't know gap, a move you have ten extra dimensions to play with

That are the rulers and protracted the world themselves. Can you gain access to those dimensions? Do you have a hunch so- I know they don't want to get ahead of myself, because the you have to appreciate. I can have hunches and I can. I can jaw off. but one of the ways I'm succeeding in this world is to not bowed down to my professor while communities nor to ignore them, like I'm, actually interested in the criticism I just wanted denature it so that it is not per se, it mostly interpersonal and irrelevant, and I believe that they don't want me to speculate, and I don't need to spec. It about this. I can certainly say I'm open to the idea that it may have engineering prospects and it may be a death sentence. We may find out that there is not enough new here that, even if it were right that there would be nothing new to do, can t? That's me about death sentences?

would not be exciting, break the mood and vulnerable. If you couldn't like you, can do new things in an hour standing in world that you couldn't do in a newtonian world like yours. In paradoxes, lorenz contraction of length or any one of a number of new cool things happen in relativity theory that didn't happen for newton. What if there wasn't new stuff to do at the next and final level for years now would be quite said. Let me ask a silly question, but I will say it with a straight face impossible. So let me mention elon musk. What are your thoughts about he's more your morning, physics theory side of things. He is more in the physics engineering side of things in terms of spacex efforts.

Do you think of his efforts to get off this planet. While I think he's the other guy who's semi serious about getting off this planet. I think there are two of us were semi serious, we're getting off the planet, What do you think about his methodology in yours when you at them. Don't and I'd ought to be against you out because, like I was so excited that, like your top, video was ray kurtz file and then I did your podcast and we had some chemistry so zoomed up, I thought. Okay, I'm gonna beat ray kurzweil suggests im coming up on ray kurzweil like and now a lex fridman special elon musk, and he blew me out of the water. So I don't wanna be petty about. I want to say that I do, but I am yeah. Ok, here's the funny part and he's not taking enough risk.

he's trying to get us to mars, imagine that you got us to mars the moon and will throw in tighten and nowhere good enough. The diversification level is to learn out, there's a complete ability. First of all, I don't think he lot of serious is about mars. I think elon is using mars as a as a narrative, as his stories remain to make the moon jealous to make the I I think, he's using it as a story to organize us to reacquaint ourselves with our need for space. I need to get off this planet. It's a concrete thing. He shown that many people think that has shown that he's the most brilliant incapable person on the planet. I don't think that's what he showed. I think you show that the rest of us have forgotten

the capabilities and so he's like the only guy who has still kept the faith and is like what's wrong with you, people say think. The lesson we should draw from elon musk is there's a there's, a capable person within within a lot of us you and make sense to me in what way he's doing what any sensible person should do is trying incredible things and he's partially succeeding. Partially failing to try to solve the obvious problems before you, nobody comes up with things with a guy. You know I got it will come up with a battery company, but batteries are sexy. Swill will make a car around it. Great, you know, or any one of a number of things you on is behaving like a sane person, and I view everyone else is insane, and my feeling is is that we really have to get off this planet we have to get out of. This

they get out of the neighbour doing an hour. But do you think that's a physics, grammar and engineering problem cowardice problem? I think they were afraid that We had four hundred hitters of the mind like einstein and dirac, and that that era is done and now we're just sort of copy editors says is some of it. Money like if we become brave enough to go outside the solar system, can we afford to financially. While I think that that's enough the issue, the issue is look what did well, he amassed a lot of money and then he replied it back in and spun he spun the wheel and made more money, and now he's got a few money now. The problem is that a lot of the people who have f you money

are not people whose middle finger you ever want to see. I want to see you middle finger want to see what I mean by that? Are like, when you say fuck it, I'm gonna do the biggest closely whatever the fuck. You wants. Yeah right, fuck, you fuck anything that gets in his way that he can afford The push out of his way and you're saying he's not actually even doing that enough. No, I'm just he's not going. Please I'm going to go yawns doing fine with his I just want wanna do enjoy himself. Have the most you known, deniz, we are by using mars, is playing it safe. He doesn't know how to do. Anything else knows rocket yeah and he might know some physics at a. Fundamental level yeah, it's vegas, ok, just let me just go right back to how much physics you really how much

brilliant, breakthrough, ideas on the physics I d need to get off this planet. I dont know- and I dont know whether, like it my most optimistic dreamliner know whether my stuff gets us off the planet, but its hope. Its hope that there's a more fundamental theory that we can access the we don't need. whose elegance and beauty will suggest that this is probably the way the universe goes like you have to say this weird thing, which is this. I believe. This, I believe, is a very dangerous statement, but this, I believe, I believe that my theory points the way. Now you are might or might not be able to access. My theory- I don't know I don't know what he knows but keep in mind. Why are we also focused on you? Are it's really weird is kind of creepy to why he's just a person whose task in the

They all these questions in doing whatever he can't, but he makes sense to me. You said craig venter makes sense to me. Jim watson makes sense to me We are focusing on ilan it because he is he's with some house rare. Well, that's the weird thing like we come up with a system that eliminates all ilan from our pipeline and you are somehow snuck through when we're quality, adjusting everything you know, and this this idea of disk I distributed idea. Suppression, complex idea, is that

it's bringing the laws of the world down. You know so funny. It's like he's asking Joe rogan like. Is that a joint? You know it's like what what what will happen. If I smoke it, what will happen to the stock price? What will happen if I scratch myself in public? What will happen if I say what I think about thailand or covert or who knows what? And everybody don't say that say this go. Do this go? Do that, while it's crazy making it's absolutely crazy making and if you think about what we put through people through which we need to get people who can use a few money, the f you money, they need to insulate themselves from all of the people who know better, has the the mai nightmares. Is that why, We only get one you on. What have we were supposed to have thousands and thousands of europe in the weird thing is like this- is all that remains

you're you're, looking at like obi, wan and yoda, and it's like this is the only this is all that's left. After ex order, sixty six has been executed and that's the thing that's really upsetting to me. As we used, we used to have elections five deep and then we can talk about iran in the context of his cohort. But this is like it if you were to see a giraffe in the arctic with no trees around you'd, think why the long neck? What a strange sight you know how to get more yawns? How do we change things? So I I think they use boats, so we know mit yeah and harvard so can may be returning to previous conversation matters is that the laws of the world are supposed to come from mit and hard right. And how do you change let's think of one, that mit sort of killed.

have any names in mind: Aaron Schwartz leaps to my mind. Yet ok, er wie mit supposed to shield the aaron Swartz is from I dunno journal publishers. Are we supposed to help the journal publishers so that we can throw thirty five year sentences in his face or whatever it is that we did that did press okay, so here's my point yep, I want mit to go back to being the home of aaron Swartz and if you want to send aaron Swartz to a state where he's looking at thirty five years in prison or something like that, you are my sworn enemy. You are not mit. Yeah, you are the traitorous

Ah, irresponsible middle brow, pencil pushing green eyes shade fool that needs to not be in the seat at the at the presidency of mit period, the and get the fuck out of there and let one of our people sit in that chair and thing they have articulated. As that the people in those chairs are not the way they are because their evil, somehow morley compromise this. That is shifted. That's the distributed nature, Is there some kind of aspect of the system, those people who will themselves to the system they adapt? Every instinct in the fact is that

they're, not going to be on your rogan smoking? A blunt that, let me ask a silly question: do you think institution generally just tend to become that? No, we get some of the institutions. We get caltech. Here's! What we're supposed to have worse post have caltech were supposed to have a reed. We're supposed to have deep springs were supposed to have mit were supposed to have a part of harvard and when the sharp elbow crowd comes after the shell, sharp mine crowd were supposed to break the sharp elbows and say dont come around here again. So what are the weapons that the sharp minds supposes in our modern day said to reclaim? Am I de what what is it what's the future? Are you kidding me first of all, assume that this is being seen at mit hey. Everybody is ok, hey everybody!

try to remember who you are you're, the guys who put the police car on top of the great? Don't you you guys him up at the great breast of knowledge, you created a tetra game and the green building. Now what. Is your problem? They killed one of your own. You should make their life living hell? Use, be the ones who keep the mare memory of Erin schwartz alive and all of those hackers and all others mutants. You know it's like it's either our place or it isn't, and if we after throw twelve, more pianos off of the roof right. If Harold egerton is taking those photographs, you know with slow mo back in the forties

If NOME chomsky is on your faculty, what the hell is wrong with you, kids, you are the most creative and incite for people, and you can't figure out how to defend aaron schwartz. That's on you guys. Some of that is giving more power to the young. I guess said no, the brain tower over taking power from the feeble and the middle brow ever had a what the mechanism to me? I don't know you. You have the name, batteries. Now copper wire. I didn't it gave a capacitor. I tend believe you have to create an alternative and make they'll turn of so much better, that it makes mit obsolete absolutely unless they change and that what forces change says opposed to somehow I so use projection. Mapping must projection map where you take some complicated. Is the new map all of its planes, and then you actually project some unbelievable graphics, risking

building. Let's say at nitrate: ok see why do some graffiti start with. You basically want to hack the system, know what I'm saying: cliff, listen to mula yeah, we're smarter than they are, and they know what they say. They say things like. I think we need some geeks get me to phds way. You treat phds like that. That's a bad move into the hds are capable and we act like Our job is to peel grapes for our betters either. This strange thing I e speak about a very eloquently is how we treat basically the greatest signs in the world which is like at at their prime, which speech dissidents, that we pay them nothing, we would it I'm done with it right. We gotta take what's hours, so it take back mit, become ungovernable, become on governance

oh, and by the way, when you become ungovernable, don't do it by throwing food dont, do it by. Pouring salt on the lawn like a jerk. Do it through brilliance, because what you caltech at mit can do, and maybe rents layer, Paul, technical, worcester politics, I dont, know lehigh goddamn it what's wrong with you technical people. You act like you're, a servant, class it is unclear to me how you reclaiming, except with brilliant, you said, but to me that the way you reclaiming with brilliant has got your own system. Aaron Swartz came from the elon musk class. What you guys gonna do about it right that super capable people need to flex need to be

the visual they need to stop giving away all their power to you know as I gazed at community or this or that you're not you're, not indoor cats, your outdoor cats, goby outdoor. Do you think we're gonna see this this kind of anyone asking me you know before, like what about the world war two generation on I'm trying to say is that there is a technical Volt coming here's you autonomous term, trying to lead ray, I'm trying to see none I'm trying I'm trying to get a blueprint here, lex, how angry are you about our country per day, meaning that you and I can't actually do technical subjects. They need an army of kids coming in from four countries in asia. It's not about the four countries in asia is not about those kids It's about lying about us, the we're dont care enough about science and technology that were incapable of it, as if you, don't have chinese and russians and koreans and croatians, like we ve got everybody here.

The only reason you're looking outside is that you want to hire cheap people from the family business, because you don't want to pass the family business on, and you know what you didn't really build: the family business. It's not yours to decide you. the boomers and you the silent generation. You did your bit but also found a lot of stuff up and you're custodians. You are caretakers you're supposed to hand something what you did instead was too gorge yourself on cheap foreign labour, which you then held up as being much more brilliant than your own children, which was never tried it, but I'm trying to understand how to create a better system without anger without revolution. Ah, no not by kissing hugson and but by any. I dont understand within mit what the mechanism of building a better mit is we're not gonna pay, elzevir, Aaron, schwartz,

right. J said earlier that it is an abomination, but why? within a mighty who within our institutions, is going to do that when jesse, I said the people who are running the show are more senior and frank. Wilczek does speak out, so europe is basically individuals. A step up. I mean one of the surprising things about elon is that one person can inspire so much. He has got academic freedom that just comes from money I don't agree with that: don't you think money? Okay, so yes, certainly as our ethical uva. Everyone in this house, where those are more important than money right or guts. I think I do agree with you. You speak about decide that, because the money in academic institutions has been so constrained that peepers miss behaving in in and horrible, yes, but

I don't think that if we reverse, I give a huge amount of money. People arson behave. Well, I think it also takes got me. You need to get people security, security, you need to know there. You have a job, on monday, when, on friday you say, I'm not so sure, I really love diversity and inclusion, and some is wait. What you didn't love diverse, we had a statement on diversity and you wouldn't sign. Are you against the inclusion part or you against diverse? Do just not like people like actually that has nothing to do with anything you're making this into something that it isn't. I dont want to sign your goddamn stupid statement. get out of my lab right. Guy out of my lab. It all begins from the middle finger get out of my lap, the admins Traders need to find other work I agree with you, and I am, I hoped to seek your advice and wisdom as we

Is this because I'd love to see my? What is it you in prison? If that's what you're asking I have? No, I think in his great you get a lot of reading done. then new angle working out. Well, let me ask the sunday about it before they need. You quote, Beware that when fighting monsters yourself do not become a master for we gaze long the abyss they built the abyss gaze into you Are you worried that your focus on the flaws in the system that we have been talking about has done major mind or the part of the mine of your mind as able to see the beauty in the world, in the system that, because you have so sharply been able to see the floor, the system you can no longer stepped back and appreciate speedy. Look, I'm the one is trying to get the institutions to save themselves

by getting rid of their inhabitants but leaving the institution like a neutron bomb that removes thee unworkable leadership class but leaves the structure. society also, the leadership classes really the problem, the leadership, If you like the professors, the invaders scholar, First we are going to have to go back into meaning to remember how to be professors like people are cowards at the moment, because if they're, not cowards, they're unemployed, yea, that's one of the disappointing things I've encountered is to meet tenure. Nobody has tenure now why, whether they do or not they certainly don't have character that not the kind of character and and fortitude that I was hoping to see to me but they'd be gone but see you're dreaming.

about the people who used to live at mit. Your dreaming about the previous inhabitants of your university, and, if you like, at somebody like you know, is it singer is very old. I don't know what state he's in, but that guy was absolutely the real deal and if you look at Noam, Chomsky tell me that Noam Chomsky has been muzzled. Right now. What I'm trying to get at is you're talking about younger, energetic people, but those people like when I say something like I am against I'm ford inclusion and I'm for diversity, but I am against diversifying the inclusion tm like the movement. While I couldn't say that if I was a professor.

god he's against our sacred document? Okay! Well, in that kind of a world, do you want to know how many things I don't agree with you on the lake we could go on for days and days and days all the nonsense that you ve pirated inside of the institution. Any sane person like has no need for they have no want for desire. Do you think you have to have some patience for non? Hence when many people were together system, how long a string theory gone on, for how long have I been patient you're talking this element to patients, they die in about thirty six years, of modern nonsense and strength. You think you can do like eight to ten years, but not more. I can do forty minutes. This is thirties, what you ve done, that over two hours, or whether to appreciate the resident for thirty six years of nonsense, the anomaly cancellation in in string theory. So what are you doing? he met about patients lex

you're, not even acting like yourself at what you Trying to stay in the system and I'm not sure, I'm not I'm trying to see, if perhaps so so. My hope is that the system just has a few assholes in it, which you highlight and the fundamentals of the system are broken because If the fundamentals of the systems are broken, then I just don't see away. Firm attitude is to succeed it like. I don't see how young people take over a mighty. I don't see how by inspiring us. the great part about being at mit, like when you saw that the genius in these pranks the heart, the irreverence thick, don't then we're talking a tumbler the last time Tom.

it was as naughty as the days law agreed agreed? Was he also a genius? Was he well spoken was highly cultured. He was so talented, so intellect sure they could just make far jokes morning, noon and night, ok or in part the right to make far chokes the right to, for example, put it mentioning phone booth that was ringing on top of the great dome at mit has to do with. We are such bad ass is that we can actually do this stuff, but dont tell me about it. Any more go break the law Go break the law in a way that inspires us then makes us not want to prosecute. You may break, law in a way that lets us know that you're calling us out of your bullshit that your filled with love and that our technical talent has not gone to sleep at night. Incapable you know, and if the idea is that you're gonna do. The motor around the university and fill it with tiger sharks. That's awesome

I don't know what you're going to do it, but if you actually manage to do that, I'm not gonna prosecute be prosecuted wonder where reckless endangerment man that's beautifully put, I hope, does first of all the listen. I hope young people mit will take over in this in this kind of way, in the introduction to your podcast episode on Jeff Epstein You give me a really moving story, but unfortunately, for me too brief about your experience with a therapist and lasting terror. That, for me added your mind, can you or can you go there keto? I don't think so. I mean I appreciate what you're saying I said it obliquely. I said enough and there are bad people who cross our paths and the current vogue. Is to say, I'm a survivor, I'm a victim. I can do

anything I want. This is broken person and I dont know why I was sent to a broken person as a kid and to be honoured with you. I also felt like in that story. I say that I was able to say no no, and this was like the entire weight of authority and he was misusing his position and I was also able to say no. what I couldn't say no to was having him re inflicted in my life. I see you are sent back. Yes, second tie the complaint about what had happened. I try to do it in a way that did not immediately cause horrific consequences to both this person and myself, because I didn't, we don't have the tools to deal with sexual must begin.

here we have nuclear weapons, we don't have any way of saying this is probably not good place, a role for you at this moment, as an authority figure something needs to be worked on, so in general, when we see somebody who is miss behaving That way are our immediate instinct is to treat the person. As you know, Satan and we understand why we dont want our children to be at risk now. I personally believe that I fell down on the job and did not call out the Jeffrey Epstein thing early enough, because I was terrified of what Jeffrey Epstein represents and this recapitulated the old terror trying to tell the world this therapist is out of control, and when I

Add that the world responded by saying. While you have two appointments booked and you have to go for the second one, so I got reinfected into this office on this person. Who is now convinced that I was about to tear down his career and his reputation, it might have been on the verge of suicide. For all. I know I dunno, but he was very, very angry and he was furious with me that I had breached a sacred confidence of his office What kind of ripple effect as they have has the head? The rest, your life, the Absurdity in the cruelty of that I mean, there's no sense to it. Well see this is the thing people dont really grasp. I think there is inaccurate Emily, who I got to know many years ago, named jennifer, fried who has a theory of betrayal which he calls institutional betrayal and her gambit. Is that when you were betrayed by.

an institution that a sort of like a fiduciary or a parental obligation to take care of you that you find yourself in a far different situation with respect to trauma than if you were betrayed by somebody who's appear. And so I think that my in my situation, I kind of repeat ape. take your dynamic with authority? I come in not following all the rules trying to do something not trying to do others, blah blah blah and then. I get into a weird relationship with authority, and so I have more experience with what I would call institutional betrayal now, the funny part about is that when you don't have masks or p p in a

when's alike pandemic, and you missing. I see you betsy ventilators, that is ubiquitous institutional betrayal. So I believe that in a weird way I was very early. The idea in this, is like the really hard concept, pervasive or otherwise universal institution of betrayal. Where all of the institutions, you can count on any hospital to not charge you properly for with their services. Are you can count on no pharmaceutical company to produce the drug? that will be maximally beneficial to the people who take it. You know that your financial professionals are not simply working in your best interests in that

issue had to do with the way in which growth left of our system. So I think that the weird thing is that this first institutional betrayal by a therapist left me very open to the idea of ok. Well, maybe the schools are bad. Maybe the hospitals are bad. Maybe the drug companies are bad. Maybe our food is off. Maybe are journalists are not serving journalistic ends, and that was what allowed me to sort of go all the distance and say hmm, I wonder if our problem is that something is cause

all of our sense, making making institutions to be off. That was the big insight and that tying that to a single ology. What if it's just about growth? They were all built on growth, and now we ve promoted people who are capable of keeping quiet that their institutions aren't working. So we we, the privileged silent, aristocracy the people who can be counted upon, not to mention a fire when a raging fires tearing through a building, but nevertheless how big of a psychological burden is that it is huge, its terrible rushing its various very comforting to be the parental I mean I don't know. I treasure Meanwhile, we just talking about a mighty weaken until I can interact, Size and agree with everything your saying, there's a comfort, a warm blanket

of being with a new and up until an errand schwartz in other words. Now, if I look at the provost and the presidency, mommy and daddy. You did. What to my big brother. You did what to our family, you sold us out in which way what secrets left for china you hired, which workforce you did? What to my wages? You took this portion of my grant for what purpose you just stole my retirement through a fringe. What did you do, but can you still well I mean the thing is about this view you have. Is it often turns out to be? Sadly, correct was the thing and but that lemme, just in a silly hopeful thing, do you still have hope and institutions can you learn you've cycled psychologically? Yes, I'm referring not intellectually, because you've had to carry this burden

You still have a hope like within huge iq that when you sit at home alone and as opposed to seeing the darkness within these institutions seeing a hope well, but this is the thing I want to confront, not for the purpose of a dust up. I believe, for example, if you've heard episode, nineteen, that the best outcome is for carol greider to come from. ford as it discuss an episode. Nineteen with your brother, bright eyes and say you know, I said I screwed up, he did call, he did suggest the experiment. I didn't understand. That was his theory. There was producing it. Maybe I was slow to to grasp it, but My bad and I dont want to pay for this bad choice. On my part, let's say

for the rest of my career, I want to own up, and I want to help make sure that we do it's right with what's left and that's one little case within their situation. I would like to see me. I would like to see mit very clearly come out and say you know. Margo tool was right when she said David Baltimore's lab here and produced some stuff. That was not reproducible with the theresa many she carries research. I want to see the courageous people. I would like to see a the aaron swartz wing of the computer science department and yeah wouldn't know, let's think about it, yeah. Wouldn't that be great if they said you know, an injustice was done and we're going to we're going to right that wrong. Just as if this was Alan turing, which I don't they re that wrong will. Then, let's have the turing schwartz way the tour there they're starting a new college computing. You wouldn't be wonderful

the the toys I would like to have the Madame wooing of the physics department and I'd love to the emmy, nerd or statue in front of the math department. I mean like you, want to get excited about actual diversity and inclusion yeah. Well, let's go with our absolute best people who never got theirs, because there is structural bigotry. You know. But if we don't actually start celebrating the beautiful stuff that we're capable of when we're handed heroes and we fumble them into the trash, what the hell I mean lex, this is such nonsense. We are just pulling our head

You know the on everyone seek seacom should be tattooed. If you can read this you're too close beautifully put, and I'm a dreamer just like you, I so I don't see as much of the darkness genetically or due to my life experience, but I do share the hope for my. as you know, we care a lot about reboot, the hair and a harvard as usual. I don't give a damn about, but you do so ilo harvard I'm just kidding a harvard by parliament, and I have a very difficult relationship and part of what you know when you love a family that isn't working, I dont want to trash I'd. I didn't bring up the name of

president of mit during the orange words period? It's not vengeance. I want the rock cleared out. I don't need to go after human beings, just like you say with it with a disk formulation. They endanger human beings. I don't necessarily carry them, gets those chairs that are so powerful that in which he has

It is the chairs, not the humans, not the humans without naming names. Can you tell the story of your struggle during your time at harvard may be in a way that tells the bigger story of the struggle of young bright minds that are trying to come up with big, bold ideas within the institutions that we're talking about you can start, I mean in part, starts with a coffee with a a couple of croatians in math department at mit and them we used to talk about music and dancing math and physics and love and all this kind of stuff, as is eastern europeans love to

and I eat it up and my friend gardener, who was an instructor in the mit math department. When I was a graduate student at harvard said to me, and I'm probably gonna do a bad version of her backside air ago it will. I see it tomorrow at the secret seminar when I said what secret seminar it don joke that I said I'm not used to this style of humor regardless idzik. The secret seminar that your advisor is running I said what are you talking? Hera ha ha ha. Ah, you know your advisor is running a secret seminar on this aspect. I think it was like the chern simons invariant, not sure what the topic was again but She gave me that room number and the time and you like not cracking smile. I've never known her to make this kind of a joke, and I thought this was crazy-

I was trying to have an adviser. I didn't want an adviser, but people so you have to have one's took one, and I went to this room. At like fifteen minutes early- and there was not a soul inside it, it was outside of the math department and was still in the same building the science center at harvard. And I sat there and let firemen let's go by, let seven minutes go by ten minutes. Go by there's nobody. I thought ok. So this was all an elaborate joke and then, like three minutes to the hour, this graduate student walks in and like sees me and does a double take, and then I start to see the professors in geometry and topology start to file in and everybody's, like very disconcerted that I'm in this room and finally

the person who is supposed to be my adviser walks in to the seminar and sees mean and goes white as a ghost. and I realize that the secret seminar is true that the department is conducting a secret seminar on the exact topic that I'm interested in not telling me it and then these are the reindeer games that the rude offsets partners are not invited to. And so then I realized okay, I did not understand it. There is a parallel department and that became. The beginning of an incredible odyssey, in which I came to understand that the game that I had been sold about publication about.

Blind referee, in about openness and scientific transmission, information was all a lie. came to understand that at the very top there is a second system, that's about closed, closed meetings and private communications the agreements about citation and publication that the rest of I don't understand. that in large measure, that is the thing that I would submit to, and so, when you ask me, questions like well, why wouldn't you feel good about in a talking to your critics or why wouldn't answers? Oh, you dont know like you stay in a nice hotel. You don't realize that there is an entire second structure inside of that hotel, where

It is usually a workers' cafe in a resort complex that isn't available to the people who are staying in the hotel, and then there are private hallways and inside the same hotel. That are parallel structures. So that's what I found, which was in essence just the way you can stay hotels, your whole life and not realize that inside of every hotel is a second structure that you're not supposed to see as the guest. There is a second structure inside of academics that behaves totally differently. respect to how people get dinged, how people get their grants taken away, how this person comes to have that thing named after them and by pretending if that were not running a parallel structure. I have no patience for that anymore. So the I got a chance to see how the game, how hard ball is really put

aid at harvard- and I am now eager to play hard ball back with the same people who played hardball with me. Ask two questions in this. So one do you think it's possible though I, but I call those people assholes, but that's the technical term. Do you think it's possible that that's just not the entire system, but a part of the system, a sort of that there's you can navigate. You can swim in the waters and find the groups of people who do aspire. to the guy irresolute. My phd was one of the people who filed in to the secret summer right, but are there plunges train? I cited this right? Is he an asshole? Would the yes? I was as a bad now, but I'm trying to make this point, which is this, isn't my failure to correctly map these people? It's yours

Will you have a simplification that isn't gonna work? I think ok asked the long term out, say lacking of character, and what would you have had these people do? Why did they do this? Why have a secret summer? I don't understand the exact dynamics of a seek summer, but I think the right thing to do it's too, I mean to see individuals like you that there might be a reason to have a secret samara, but they should do The fact that an individual, like you are a brilliant mind, who's thinking about certain ideas could be damaged by this. I don't think they see it that way. The idea is we're going. The snake food to the children we want to survive. Yes, that, that's, u highly problematic and should be people within that road. I'm trying to say is the thing the ball the king has thrown back, won't be caught the price

one is they know that most of their children won't survive, and they can't say that I assert aside to interrupt. You mean that the fact that the whole system is under funded They naturally have to pick favorites. They live in a world which reach steady state of some level. Let's say you know: in the early seventies, and in that world, and before that time you have a professor, like norman steen rod and you'd have twenty children. That is graduate students, and all of them would go on to be professors, and all of them would want to have twenty children. right? So you start like taking higher and higher powers of twenty, and you see that the system could not as much money the system couldn't survive. So the way it's supposed to work now is that we should shut down the vast majority of

hd programmes, and we should let the small number of truly top places populate mostly tee. Xing and research departments that aren't phd produce. We don't want to do that because we use phd students as a labor force. The whole thing has to do with growth, resources, dishonesty and in that world you see all of these adaptations to a ruthless world rate. The key question is: where are we going to bury this huge number of bodies of people who don't work out? So my problem was, I wasn't in didn't die. So you clearly highlighted. There's aspects is broken, but as an individual. Is your role to our exit, the system or just acknowledged game, and when it, my role is to survive and thrive in the public eye and other words

When you have an escapee of the system like yourself, such as. and that person says you know I wasn't exactly finished. Let me show you a bunch of stuff. Let me show you that the theory of telomeres we never got. Ported properly. Let me show you that all of us Regional economics is supposed to be redone with a different version of the differ so calculus, let me show you that you didn't understand these self doing mills equations correctly in topology and physics, because there in fact much more broadly found and it's only the mutations that happen in special dimension, the lots of things to say, but this particular group of peace. like, if you just take it, where are all the job max and millennium university president, ok, they're all. They're all in a holding pattern now

where Why, in the story, you know is an act of killing years. Was it an older? professor in a younger graduate student, it's this issue of what would be called interference. Competition. So, for example, causes try to drown monkey whales by covering their blowholes so that they suffocate, because the needed resource is air, Ok, well, what are the universities to they try to make sure that you can't be viable that you need them, that you need the grants. You need to be zinc with overhead charges or fringe rates are all of the games that the locals love to play, while my point is It was the cost of this. How many people died as a result of these interference? Competition games? You know when you take somebody like douglas pressure, who did green fluorescent protein and he drives a shuttle. Bus right click is grant, runs

he has to give away all of his research and all of that research gets a nobel prize and he gets to drive a shuttle bus for thirty five thousand dollars a year. What do you mean by that? you mean their career, their dreams they're all their there as an academic. Doug pressure was dead for a long period of time. Ok, so as it as a person whose escaped the system yeah, get you at this, because you also have, in your mind a powerful theory that may turn out to be you, so maybe not but hope. Can't. You also play the game enough, like with the children so like, publish. And but also, if you told me that this would work really. What I want to do you see is: I would love to revolutionize a field with an h index of zero, like we have these proxies that count, how many papers you've written, how sighted of the papers you've written.

All this is nonsense, essentially to say what do you mean by fields with an h index or cycling? You feel each index is count somehow how many papers have you gotten that get so many citation and let's say each index undefined like, for example- and I don't have an adviser for my phd, but I have to have an advisor as far as something called the math genealogy project that tracks who had as to who advised whom down the line. So I am my own advisor which sets up a loop right. How many students do I have an infinite number or descendants? They don't want to have that story, so I have to be. I have to have formal advisor raul bot and my wikipedia entry, for example says that I was advised by raul bot, which is not true, so you get f fit into a system that says,

Will we have to know what your h indexes we have to know? Do you know where are your professor? If you want to apply for a grant, it makes all of these assumptions what I'm trying to do is to impart to show. All of this is nonsense. This is proxy bs that came up in the institutional setting and right now, it's important for those of us who are still vital, like elon it'll, be great to have elon as a professor of physics and engineering yeah right. Seems ridiculous to say, but don't just as chatelet, just as a shot in the arm. You know like be great. Have you on account, even one day a week, one day a month, okay! Well, why can't we be in there the same reason. Why can't you beyond the view? Why can't you be on bill? We need I know what you're going to do before we take you on the shit on the show. While I don't want to tell you what I'm gonna do, do you think you need to be able to dance the dance a little bit? I can the dance far to beyond the view oh come on, seek.

You d like. I know that fine is where it should the place that it goes south. Is there like a set of questions that gets you into this more adversarial stuff and even fact ask some of those more adversarial questions this and they're, not things that are necessarily aggressive, but there are things that are making assumptions right where it was. When you make a. I have a question like you know, lex, are you avoiding your critics? You know it's just like okay! Well, why did you frame that that way or the next question would be like Do you think that you should have a special exemption and that you should have the right to break rules and everyone else should have to follow them? Like that question I find enervating yet It doesn't really come out of anything meaningful. It's just like. We feel we're supposed to ask that of the other person to show that we're not captured by their madness. That's not the real question. One asked me if you want to get really excited about this. When asked. Do you think this thing is right, yeah weirdly

Do you think that it's going to be immediately seen to be right? I don't think it's going to it's going to have an interesting fight, and this can have an interesting evolution and what would you hope to do with it in nonphysical terms? Gosh? I hope it pollution, ices, our relationship of well with people outside the institutional framework and it rain flicks us into the institutional framework where we can do the most good to bring the institutions back to health. You know like these are positive, uplifting question. Yet, if you had frank will check you, wouldn't frank, let's be honest, you have done very little with your life after the original. A huge show that you used to break under the physics like we weirdly ask people different questions based on how they sit down. Yeah, that's very strange right, but you have to understand that so here's the thing

yet these days, a large number of emails from people with the equivalent of a theory of everything for asia, and I use my own radar viet bs radar to detect. I am fairly, perhaps whether their full of shit or not right. I guess I love what you're, where you're going with this by the way as mike my concern that I often think about is theirs the brilliance and what people write to me- and I am I'm trying to right now, as you made it clear as the kind of judgment and assumptions will make, how am I supposed to deal with. You horner and not an outsider of the system and think about what you're doing,

because my radar saying you're not full of shit here, but I am also not completely outside of the system. That's right, you ve dance beautifully. You ve actually get got all the credibility that you're supposed to get all the nice little stamp of approval, not all, but a large enough amount use use. I mean it s hard to put into words exactly why you sound or whether your theory turns out to be good and not? Are you sound like a special human being, Thank you. We need good, I saw, but what am I supposed to do with a flood of emails from?

A young, why do I say indifferent and I would like the system, is that I don't know look you know when you're talking to people you very quickly can surmise it. My claiming to be a physicist. No, I say at every turn or not. physicist right when I say to you when you say something about bundles, you say: what can you explain it differently? I I you know I'm pushing around and this this area that lever over there I'm trying to find something that we can play with and engage, and you know another thing is: is that I'll say something at scale, So if I was saying completely wrong things about bundles on the Joe rogan program, you don't think that we wouldn't hear a crushing chorus. Yes and also you know same thing with geometric unity. So I put up this: do

this video from this oxford lecture. I and I understand That'S- is not a standard lecture, but you haven't heard you know the most brilliant people in the field say well. This is obviously nonsense. They don't know what to make of it Yeah I'm going to hide behind. Well, he hasn't said enough detail where's the paper and where's the paper. I've ever seen the criticism. I've gotten the same kind of crazes have published a few things and I, like especially stuff related to tesla, that we did studies and test the vehicles and the kind of criticism. I've got which showed that there completely oh right, like the guy who had elon musk on his programme twice, is gonna. Give us an accurate assessment exactly. It is, as does very low level like without actually- for addressing the content. You know legs. I think that in part you're trying to solve a puzzle that isn't really your puzzle. I think you know that I'm sincere.

I don't know whether the theory is going to work or not, and you know that it's not coming out of somebody. Who's coming out of left field, like the story, makes sense. There's enough this new and creative, indifferent in other aspects where you can check me that you're. A real concern is: are you really telling me that when you start breaking the rules, you see the system for what it is and it's become real, a vicious and aggressive, and the answer is yes and I had to break the rules in part because of learning issues, because I came into this field. You know of a totally different set of attributes, my profile

look like anybody else is remotely. But as a result with that did, as it showed me, a wood is the system true to its own ideals, or does it just follow these weird procedures and then, when it, when you take it off the rails, it behaves terrible, not really what my story, I think does, is it just says? Well, he completely takes the system into new territory where it's not expecting to have to deal with somebody with this confusing sets of attributes, and I think what he's telling us is. He believes it behaves terror now. If you take somebody with perfect standardized tests- and you know a winner of math competitions and you put them in a phd program- they're probably going to be okay, I'm not saying that the system and. No breaks down for any everybody under all circumstances saying when you present the system with a novel situation at the moment,

will almost certainly break down with probability approaching one hundred percent. But to me the painful and the tragic thing, is it sorry to bring up my motherly instinct, but it feels like it's too much or it could be too much of a burden to exist outside the system, maybe by psychologically. First of all, I've got ah a podcast that I this kind alike in togo, amazing friends, I have a life which has more interesting people passing through it, and I know what to do and they haven't managed to kill me off yet so far so good speaking of which you host and using pop guess- who met several times, but should over and over the portal, where museum or manage every single conversation is a surprise. You go, I mean not just a guess, but just the with the places you take them

The kind of ways they become challenging and how you recover from that, and he had sir this is full of genuine human rights- once. So I really appreciate we're the fun fun. Podcast. Listen to the me. so silly questions about it. What what have you learned about conversation about human to human conversation? Why the problem- and I would solve the portal which is that in general, when I ask people questions, they usually find their deeply grooves answers and I'm not so interested in all of the deeply grouped answers and so there's a complaint which I am very sympathetic to actually that I talk over people that I won't sit still for the answer. I think that's weirdly sort of correct it's not that I'm not interested in hearing other voices, not interested in hearing the same voice on my programme that I could have gotten and somebody else's and habits.

if that was so. I've learned that I need a new conversational technique where I can keep somebody from finding their comfortable place and yet not be the voice. Talking over that person is funny. I get the sense. I get a conversation with brett, a consensus. You detect that the line has gone under that down. Is you know how it's going to end, and you know he thinks it's a useless line, so you'll just stop right there and you take him into the direction that you think he should go, but that requires interruption while and it does so far. I haven't found a better way, I'm looking for a better way. It's not it's not like. Wait, don't hear the problem. I do hear the problem. I just I haven't solved the problem and you know and the and the bread episode and I was insufferable it was very difficult to listen to. So

overbearing, but, on the other hand I was right. You know it's like funny. You keep saying that, but I didn't find it me because I heard brothers, like I heard a big brother yeah, it was pretty bad really, I think, sir, I didn't think you'd better go. A lot of people found it in such a thing, and I think it also has to do with the fact that this has become a frequent experience. I have said shows where somebody who I very much admire and think of his courageous. You I'm talking with them. If your friends, they sit down the show and they immediately become this fake person like two seconds in their deserve, say. Why don't be too? critical are too harsh and wouldn't name any names on this joint is like okay, I'm going to put my listeners through three hours of you being sweetness and light like at least give me some reality and then we can decide to shelve the show and never let it here. You know that,

the call of freedom in the bigger world, but I saw you break out of that a few times and I've seen you the basics, with that I forgot to gasp issues addressed to them the way, their personnel, you had an argument about bread. Agnes waller yeah and in fact, this collar. The philosophers for at the university of Chicago have continuously broken out of her. You guys and you know I didn't even seem pretty genuine. I like her, I'm completely ethically opposed to what she is ethically for what she was great and she wasn't like. you're, both going harms grown It is that I care about her, so that was awesome, yeah, but you're, saying that some people are difficult to break as just that you know she was bringing the courage of her conviction as she was sort of defending the system, and I thought wow, that's

pretty indefensible system that you have great, though she June isn't it I mean and make further awesome it's very informative for the world s you just hated. I just can't stand the idea If somebody says well, we don't care who gets paid or who gets the credit as long as we get the goodies cause. That seems like insane. Have you ever been afraid, leading into a conversation and garry kasparov really I, by the way I mean, I know, I'm just a fan taking requests, but I started. I started the beginning in russian and in fact I used one word incorrectly as a terrible. It was. It was pretty good, it's pretty good It was terrible. I think he complimented you right now. The companies that me

the compliment you on your russian, who is the almost perfect russian yet like useful shit, the us that was not great russian, but that was not great russian. That was great. That was hard, though you tried hard, which is what matters that is so insulting some, but I do hope you continue. I felt like a how long you when they might have been like a two hour conversation, but he felt I hope it continues I feel you have made during our central area, as I would love to hear this conversation. I just love to hear lower. My should show unity he's coming forever, it's this issue, but wanting to overpower people in a very dangerous world, and so Gary has that need now. He wasn't he interrupting. You are interesting than ever. As an issue in that area too. Weinstein's going out you what I mean to power. How egos billion. Now is definitely not the eager mines. My merits my

you don't have any good you're, the most humble persona such her. Now there's a complete, Do you think about your own mortality death sure? Are you afraid, while death, I released the theory during something that can killed or people sure, I was there, of course, a little bit Power their course coarse and wanted to die with me. What are you hope? You're legacy is oh, I hope my legacy is accurate.

I'd like to write on my accomplishments, rather than how my community decided to ding me. While I was alive, that would be great what about ufos significantly exaggerated? They don't want it. You wanted to be accurate and up. I've got some pretty terrific stuff in it, whether it works out or doesn't that I would like it to reflect what I actually was as subtle foraker. What would you say what is the greatest element of Eric Weinstein accomplishment in life terms of being accurate, like what? What are you most proud of trying.

The idea that we were stalled out in the hardest field at the most difficult juncture, and then I didn't listen to that voice ever. that said, stop you're, hurting yourself, you're hurting your family, hurting everybody, you're, burying yourself, you're screwing up! You can't do this you're a failure. You're fraud turn back, save yourself like that voice. I did ultimately listen to it and it was going for thirty, five thirty seven years very hard. And I hope you never listened to that voice. Why you're an inspiration. Thank you appreciate that beer, the I am just in fairly honor, they you spend time with me you ve, been-

her to me, almost a friend, I can't imagine, a better person to talk to in this world. So thank you so much for talking. I can't wait till we do it again. Lex, thanks for sticking with me and thanks for being the most single the guy in the park asking space in terms of all of my interviews, I would say that the last one I did with you many people feel was my best and it was a non conventional one so whatever it is that you're bringing to the game, I think everyone's noticing and keep at it. Thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with Eric Weinstein, a thank you to our presenting sponsor cash app. Please consider supporting the podcast by downloading cash app and using code legs podcast. If you enjoy this podcast subscribe on youtube review with five stars in apple podcasts supporter and patron, or simply connect me on twitter and lex Friedman, and now let me leave you with some

wisdom from wisdom from Eric first appears on the spot. Everything's great about war accept all the destruction. Thank you for listening and hope to see you Time the.