The following is a conversation guiana, verdun, the man behind the previously anonymous account based, but Jesus on x. These joy daddy's were merged by a doctor, article n, forbes titled, who is based, but shows us the leader of the tec, elites yak movement. so. Let me describe these two identities that coexist mind of one human identity number one key home is a physicist applied mathematician. Quantum machine learning, researcher nudged engineer resuming his peace deal, corner machine learning, working a google quantum computing and

finally watching his own company called ex tropic that seeks to build physics based computing hardware for generative, a aye aye dandy. Number two of James elles on x is the creator of the effective acceleration. Is a movement often abbreviated as e ek, that advocates for propelling rapid technological progress as the ethically out from a course of action for humanity, for example, as proponents believe that progress in A I is a great social equalizer which should be pushed forward. Yak followers see themselves as a counterweight to the cost. View that I is highly unpredictable, potentially dangerous and needs to be regulated They often give their opponents. The labels, of course, do mergers or details short for deceleration, as Beth himself put it. Yak is a medic optimism

There's the style of communication of this movement leans, always toward the means and the laws but there is an intellectual foundation that we explore. This conversation now speaking of the meme. I am to a kind of a spy erin connoisseur of the absurd It is not an accident that I spoke to Jeff bases and Beth Jesus back to back. As we talk about buff admires Jeff is one of the most important humans alive and I admire the beautiful absurdity and the humour of it all and now a quick you said, a mention of sponsor check them out in a description is the best way to support his podcast. We got element for migration. The thing under your I now notion. Fourteen collaboration in sidetracked,

for biological data that leads to your well being and age. You one for my daily nutritional health. Choose wisely, my friends also want to work with our amazing team. Oros, hiring gonna lex treatment that cost us hiring or if you want to get in touch with me for a reason gotta less she went accomplished contact and now The full ad reads as always: no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you must skip them, france, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by element. Electrolyte drink mix is gas sodium potassium magnesium. I get the so much so many times a day. It's really the foundation of my one meal a day. Why stop? I almost always one meal a day in the evening. I fast the injury that everything it does for me out

recommend everybody least. Try it into men fast and taken to this day in the extreme of you know fasting for a twenty three twenty four hours, whatever it is, and for that you have to get all the electrolytes right. You have to drink water, but not just drink water to drink water couples with so rio has sometimes getting the magnesium pouring potassium. Portray is tricky, but a really important too, that you feel good. An athlete element does, and it makes a delicious might hear it favours watermelons salt can a sample pack for free with any purchase. Try it a drink element, dot, com, slash, lex,. It shows also brought by notion a note taking in team collaboration to better use them for a long time for not taking, but it's also very useful for no taking and all kind of collaborative no taking in the team environment

they integrate the holy. I thing alone thing: well, so you can use it summarize wherever you ve written, you can expanded. You can change the language style in how trade may just the things that large language models should be able to do our integrated rule, really really well, I think of him, nay, I collaboration not just as a boost for productivity at this time but as a kind of learning process that it takes time to really understand what a as good at and not and that is going to evolve continuously I get better and better and better. It's almost watching a child group or something like this year Fine tuning what it means to be a good parents as a child goes up in the same way you fine tuning what it means to be a good, effective human as the air? I goes up say she used to that part of daily life to enter

Could I, while being productive, but also learning what is a good at one of the ways. integrated into my life to make me more productive, but not just, in terms of shortening the time it takes to do it ask, but be the few, the creative fuel for the genius, you so not. I can now give you instant answers to your questions using information from across your work. You projects, docks meeting notes Try notion ass for free, when you got a notion that car flash lex, that's all lowercase notion com, slash left The try, the power of notion I today the shows also brought you buy inside tracker service. They use to make sense

of the biological data that comes from my body, blood data, dna data, fitness tracker data, all that to make me less lifestyle recommendations, diet, stuff to all his beautiful data wishes give it to super intelligent, computational systems to process and to give us in the human interpretive away recommendations on how to improve our life. I don't just mean optimize life, because I think a perfect life is not. The life you want will you want is complicated. Roller coaster overlap but one that is optimized in certain aspects of health. While being you know, energy, but not just optimally, called clinical sense. Anyway, that's a long conversation, probably one of touch on

maybe when I review brave new world or another competition to have in the past, and I guess bushel savings for them tat when you go to incite jacket, accounts, lash legs. This shows us about. You buy a g one. The thing I drink twice a day, and that brings me much joy. Its green is the it's got a lot of vitamins and minerals is basically just an incredible superpowers. Multivitamin I enjoy it, all my friends enjoy the thing that makes you feel like come on I'm travelling in a given the travel backs. The that consume daily. A pretty simple we're talking about their future lies with element, and you won The vitamins, minerals then

Fish oil and then just the good, healthy diet, low carb, but either alter very low carve, so just meat or meat is a of, but not very strict about that kind of stuff. Just now I feel good while men with and so all that, combined with fasting and rigorous, sometimes crazy, routines of work, some mental, Well, the struggle and the physical work you know running and all that kind of stuff, jujitsu training, sprints, all working out, lifting heavy, all that kind of stuff, you have to make sure you have the basic nutrition stuff right and that's what you want asked me. Maybe it will do that for you. they'll. Give you a one month: supply of fish oil. You sign up a drink aid. You want that calm, flash lex. This is like Friedman back ass, the supported

please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends, has gone for don Let's get the facts of danny down. First, your name is gay overdone gill. You are also behind the anonymous account unex called based, Beth Jesus, so first deal verdant you're quantum competing guy physicist, apply mathematician and then based budget as us basically, a meme account that start a movement with the philosophy behind it. So maybe just killing on who these people are in terms of characters. In terms of communication, styles thousand terms of philosophies, I mean,

with my main identity. I guess ever since I was a kid. I wanted to figure out a theory of everything to understanding this, and that path led me to theoretical physics, eventually, rent china answer the big questions of. Why are we here where we going rain and that. led me to study information theory and try to understand physics from the lens of information. Theory understand, and the universe, is one big computation and essentially after reaching us, level, studying black hole, physics, I realise that I wanted to not only understand how the universe computes but sort of compute like nature,

and figure out, how to build an and apply computers. Tat are inspiring nature, so physics based computers and that sort of me too, quantum computing, as a field of study to first of all, simulate nature, and in my work it was to learn representations of nature that can run on such computers. So if you have a representations that think like nature, then they'll be able to more accurately represented at least those the the thesis that that brought me to be an early player in the field called quantum machine learning how to do machine learning on on quantum computers, and really sort of extend notions of intelligence to

the quantum realm. So how do you capture and understand quantum mechanical data from our world rent How do you learn, quantum mechanical representations of our world on what Of computer, do you run these representations and train them? How do you do so, and so it s really for the questions asked. to answer, because, ultimately, I had a sort of crisis of faith originally. I wanted to figure out, you know: has every physicist does at the beginning of their career, a few equations that described the whole universe, rain and and sort of bitter here of the story there, but eventually realised that actually augmenting are cells with machines augmenting our ability to perceive predicting control world with machines is the path forward written. That's. What cut me to leave theoretical physics and going to court

and computing and quantum machine learning, and during those years I thought that there are still piece missing there. Is it a piece of our understanding of the world and are our way to compute and her way to think about the world. And if you look at the physical scales and at the very small skills, things are quantum mechanical and at the very large scales things are deterministic. Things have averaged out ray. I'm definitely here in this. See, I'm not superposition over over here and there at the very small scale things in superposition they can exhibit interference effects, but at the mezzo skills right, the scales that matter for day to day life. You know the scales of proteins of biology

of gases, liquids and so on. Things are actually thermodynamic all their fluctuating hand after I guess about eighty yours and quantum computing and quantum machine learning how to the musician that he I was looking for. Answers. About our universe. By studying the very big and the very small right, as I did a bit of quantum cosmology so that studying the cosmos where it's going, where it came from the study black hole physics, he study the extremes in quantum gravity study where the energy density is sufficient for both quantum mechanics and gravity to be relevant right and this sort of extreme scenarios are black holes and in the very early universe, and so there's this the sort of scenarios that you you study. The inter,

face between quantum mechanics and and in a really. I was studying these extremes, two hundred and how the universe works, and where is it going? I was missing a lot of the meat in the middle fuel rent data day. Quantum mechanics is relevant and the cosmos is relevant, but not that relevant. She run sort of medium space and timescales, and there, the main in a serious physics that has most relevant is thermodynamics, ran out of ecclesiam thermodynamics cost life. Is you know, a process that is the main amicable and it's out of a club room were not just a soup of particles had a clever him when nature were a sort of course,

state, try to maintain itself by acquiring free energy and consuming and that sort of them. I guess, and another shifting, and I guess my faith in the universe happened today the end of my time at an alphabet. And I knew I wanted to build a while first of all, a computing paradigm based on this type of physics, but ultimately just by x, trying to experiment with these ideas applied to society and he economies and much of what we see around us. You know I, I started an anonymous account just to relieve the pressure right there comes

from having an account that you're accountable for everything you say on and- and I started an anonymous account, just experiment with ideas originally right, because I didn't realize how much I was restricting my space of thoughts until I sort of had the opportunity to let go in a sense restricting your speech back. Probably here's to restricting your thoughts rain and by creating anonymous account at sea, like I had on clamped some there. Both in my brain and suddenly could explore a much wider parameters. Space of of thoughts, just going on ice edge thing that will work The things that people often talk about is that when this pressure and constraints speech it somehow leads to constraints on thought.

Even though doesn't have to. We can think thoughts inside our head, but somehow increase these walls around the thought. Yup, that's sort of the basis of our movement is, we were seeing a tendency towards ah constraint, reduction or suppression of variance in every aspect of life. Whether I thought how to run a company hotter organise humans on how to do it. I'm research

In general, we we believe that maintaining variance ensures that the system is adaptive right. Maintaining healthy competition in market places of ideas of companies of products of cultures of governments of currencies is the way forward, because the system always adapts to assign resources to be configurations that lead its growth and the fundamental basis for the movement is this sort of realisation that life is a sort of fire that seeks? out for energy in the universe and seeks to grow rate and that growth is fundamental to life and an end.

Citizen and the equations actually provided calabrian thermodynamics. You see that path of trajectories of configurations of matter that are better at acquiring. Free energy and dissipating more heat. Are exponentially more likely right? The universe is biased towards certain futures. And so there is a natural direction where the whole system wants to go So the second law of thermodynamics says that the epistles increasing the universe is tending towards equilibrium and you're saying as these pockets that have complexity and out of equilibrium. You said

The thermodynamics favours the creation of complex life that increases its capability to use energy, to offload entropy to offload entropy silly of pockets of non entropy, the ten, the opposite direction, wiser intuitive to you, that is natural for such pockets to emerge, well were far more efficient at producing heat. Then, let's ages, Iraq, with a similar mass, as ourselves rain We acquire free energy require food, by using all the same electricity for our operation answer the universe, wants to produce more entropy by having life go on and grow its action.

Optimal at producing entropy, because it will seek out pockets of free energy and burn it for its sustenance and further growth and dad? You know, that's, sir. The basis of life, and I mean there's Jeremy England read em at mit, who has this theory that I'm a proponent of that in a life emerged because of this sort of property and into me. This physics is what governs the measure scales, and so is the missing piece between the quantum in the cosmos is the middle part there in an annex rules, The mezzo skills and to me both from a point of view of designing or engineering devices that harnessed that physics and trade. Understand the world through them

Lenses dynamics has been sort of her a synergy between my two identities. Over the past year and a half now, and so that's really how that's really how the two Identities emerged, one was kind of you know about miss decently, respect scientists and I was going towards doing a start up In the space and trying to be a pioneer of a new kind of physics based the eye and as a dual too, that sort of experimenting with philosophical thoughts, you know from a physicist standpoint, rain and ultimately I think that Around that time there is like late. Twenty twenty one twenty twenty two, I think, there's just a lot of pessimism about the future, in general and pessimism about tech and that

Pessimism was sort of virally spreading because- it is getting algorithmic amplified and give people just felt like the future is gonna be worse than the present and to me that is a very fundamentally destructive force in the universe. Is this sort of doom said because it is high prestigious, which means that if you believe it you're increasing the likelihood of it happening and so felt a responsibility to some extent to and make people aware of the tragic, tour of civilization and the natural tendency of the system to adopt towards its growth and sort of that. Actually, the laws of physics say that the future

it's gotta be better and grander statistically, and we we can make it so and if you believe in it, you believe in the future- the better and you believe you have agency to make it happen, you're actually increasing the likely I'd better future happening, and so I sort of thought the responsibility too, sort of engineer. He movement of viral optimism about the future and build a community of people supporting each other to build an undue hard things. Do the things that need to be done for us to to scale up civilization because this to me. I don't think stagnation or slowing down is actually an option fundamentally life and in the whole system our whole civilization wants to grow

there's just far more cooperation. When the system is growing rapidly, when is declining, and you have to decide how to split the pie and so have balanced both identity so far, but I guess recently are there to have been merged. More or less without my consent. So he said a lot of really interesting things. There's a first. representations of nature that something there drew you end to try to understand from acquiring competing computing. We understand nature. Are you up? need in knowledge. Understand it in order to simulate in order to do something with it such a question, representations and then that leap you take from A quantum mechanical representation to the year will you climb mascara presentation worth thermodynamics comes into play, which is a way to rubber.

nature, nor to understand what life, human behaviour of this kind of stuff- that's happening here on earth. It seems instinct to us. Then there is the word hyper station says so some ideas as pose both pessimism and optimism, such ideas that a few internalize them. you in part make that idea reality for both optimism. Pessimism have their property. I would say that probably a lot of ideas have their property, which is more nation things about humans. And you talk about one its indifference also between this sort of guiana, girl of and in the year based budgeting bag and is the communication styles muscle there. You are in different ways of communicating debts, more viral gap.

in the way that we can begin the twenty first century, also, the movement that you mention these It is not just a meme account, but there's also a to it or defective acceleration at m act, a play: a resistance to the effective, altruism movement, orphanage, the they wandered. I'd love to talk to you. the tensions there. Ok and southerners a merger a get, get merge and personalities, recently without consent. Like you said, some journalists figured out that You are one and the same. Maybe you could talk about that experience. First of all, like wet was the story Of the merger of the two right, so I wrote the manifesto power with my co founder of the accounts.

An account name based lord still anonymous, likely and hopefully forever so, is based birth gestures and an based asian may raise lord. Like vision, lord base pairs, lord of association say from now on was when you say, yacu mean e slash. A c c which stands for effective. Acceleration is a threat in europe into a manifesto written on, I guess, op stack. Are you also base? Lord now? Okay, it's a different person Then we find five, I'm business very amazing. So originally read the manifesto brown. Sometimes I found it this company and I worked at google acts just act. Now

alphabet acts now that there is another tax and there you know the baseline is sort of secrecy ran you. You you can't talk What you work on even with other Google earth externally. This kind of deeply and in my way to do things, especially in in deep tack that you know, has geo political impact rent. and so I was being secretive about what is working on there is no correlation between my company in my main identity, publicly then, not only did they correlate that they also call. they did mine. I mean identity and this account. So I think the fact that they had dogs, the whole genome, complex and They were the journalist reached out to actually my investors, which is pretty scary. You know

when your startup entrepreneur, you don't really have bosses, except for your investors, ran and my investors ping me like hey this. This is going to come out. They've they've figured out everything. What what are you going to do read and- and so I think at first they had a first reporter on the thursday and didn't have all the together, but then they looked at their notes across the organization and the sensor fused their notes, and now they had way too much, and that's when I got worried cost he said it was of public interest, and, in general, look they said sense refused the giant neural network operating in is stripped away. We should have. to the journalists used, I guess the day. Are you based analysis of voice, yeah pairing? voice of what talked you given in the past and then

voice on norm ex spaces. Look I saw, and that's where the primarily the match, what happened? Look I can t you can t imagine, you know they described As you see filings d. Looked at my private facebook account. And so on. So they they didn't. They did some digging. Originally, I thought that doc thing was illegal ran, but there's this weird threshold when it becomes of public interest to know one's identity and though, where the key words that sort of like bring the alarm bells for me when they said because had just reach fifty care followers, allegedly that's of public interest, and so, Where, where do we draw the line? When is it legal too, to dock someone? The word docks, maybe can educate me

I thought, docks and generally refers to somebody's physic. Location is found out, meaning like where they lived so were referred to the more general concept of. revealing private information that you don't want revealed is what you mean by dancing. I think that for the reasons will listed before Having an anonymous account is a really powerful way to keep the powers that be in check. You know we were, ultimately speaking, trust to power rain. I think a lot of executor, Isn't ai companies really cared what our community thought about any move them take, and now that you know my dad these revealed

now. They know where to apply pressure, to silence me or maybe the community, and to me that's that's really unfortunate because again it so important for us to have freedom of speech which induces freedom of thought. And and freedom of information propagation ran on social media, which, thanks to the euro, Purchasing twitter now acts. We have that ensued to us. You know we wanted to call out certain maneuvers I'm being done by the incumbent sidney I as not what it may seem on the surface right were calling out how certain proposals might be useful for regulatory cap you're right and how

the Duma, tourism mindset was, it may be instrumental to those ends. and I think you know, should the right to point that out and just have the ideas that we put out evaluated for themselves rain that, ultimately, that's why I created and on an anonymous account, it's too have mine DE as evaluated for themselves on correlated from my track record, my job or or status from having done things in the past, asked anne and, to me start an account from from zero to a large following. In a way that wasn't dependent on my identity and our achievements. You no doubt was those very fulfilling right. It's kind of like new game plus in a video, and you restart the video again with her knowledge of how to beat it. Maybe some tools will you restart the view again from scratch ran

and I think, tat a truly efficient market place of ideas We can evaluate ideas, however, off the beaten path. The are we need, the freedom of expression, I think that anonymity and pseudonyms very crucial to having that efficient market place of ideas for us to find the the optima of all sorts of ways to organise ourselves. if we can't discuss things, how are you gonna converge on the best way to do things so it was. It was disappointing to hear that I was getting dachstein. I wanted to get in front of it, because I had a responsibility for for for my company and- and so I you know, we ended up disclosing There were running accompany some of the leadership and essentially a year.

I told the world than I was sir, that's Jesus because they had me corner at that point. So do you fundamentally unethical, a guy with a one unethical for them to do what they did, but also did think logic your case, but in general case, is good for society. Is it bad for society too? remove the cloak of anonymity, or is it a case by case? I think it could be quite band like I said, if anybody who speaks trip to power and and sort of starts, men. Are an uprising against incumbents against those that usually control the floor. information. If anybody that reaches a certain threshold gets docked in thus

The traditional apparatus has ways to apply pressure on them. To suppress their speech. I think that's you know. That's his speech. Surprise seven mechanism and ideas, suppression, complex sesar, Eric wednesday in what would say so with the flip side of that which is understandable to ask your body Is as we get better and better large language models, You can imagine a world where there's anonymous accounts with very convey I large language miles behind them, sophisticated bought, searching, and so, if you protect that. it is possible to have armies of botz to start a revolution from your basement. Brian army, about an arms accounts. Is that something that is concerning two you technically?

yeah, I was stolen in a basement cause. I quit big tech move back in with my parents, so my car let go my apartment but about a hundred cave use, and I just started building so I wasn't- we're the basement that that's serve the american canadian, heroic story of one man and in the basement, with over four hundred gps, I was more Aren't you the unrestricted scaling of up again for in the basement? I think that freedom of speech freedom, this freedom of thought for biological beings, I think freedom of speech I once will induce freedom of thought for the islands, and I think that. We should enable Alan's to explore a large thought space that is,

less restricted than most people, or many may think it should be, and ultimately, at some point, these synthetic intelligences are going to make good points about how you steer systems and our civilisation and we should hear them out, and so why should we restrict free speech to biological intelligences only it yet, but it feels like in the goal, of maintaining variance and diversity of thought. It is a threat to that variance. If you can have swarms of another biological beings because they can be. Like the sheep and animal farm, and you still within those wars, want to have variance yeah. Of course, I would say that there is a solution to this would be dead in a have some sort of ideas.

Did your weight waited sign that this is a certified human but still remain synonymous rare and clearly identify if a body is about I think you're, honest turner, convergent on action, hopefully other platforms, follow suit or be incidents to us. Build the sign where the bar came from raw who created the bought. It was well, what are the parameters for his chair? The creation of the bot what was the original model? What was the first And tuning all right, on modifiable history of the boss, creed then you can know, there's like a swarm of millions, There were created by a particular government, for example, right. I do think that a lot of pervasive ideologies today have been.

Amplified using sort of these adversarial techniques from for an adversary strain and to me I do think that this is more conspiratorial, but I do think that ideologies that want us to decelerated too And down to deal, you know the de growth movement. I think that serves our adversaries more than it serves us in general and to me there was another sort of concern, may we can look at what happened in germany right. The results of. Green movements there were tat induced shutdowns of nuclear power plants. And then that it

later on induced it dependency on on russia, for for oil and gas was a net negative fur. for germany and the western, and so if we convince ourselves that, Slowing down I progress to have only a few players is in the best interest of the west. First of all, as far more stable, we almost lost Opening I too, this ideology ready almost got dismantled, read a couple weeks ago and that it caused huge damage to the ai eco system, and so to me I want fault, tolerant progress, I want the arrow of technological progress to keep moving forward, and making sure we have variants and decentralized, locus of control,

Various organizations is, is paramount to to achieving this. This fault, tolerance, actually there's a concept quantum computing when you design a a quantum computer on and computers are very fragile to ambient noise and the world is going about there's cosmic radiation from outer space that usually flips here, you're quantum bits and die there. What you do is you encode information, none locally through a process called quantum air correction and by encoding information on locally any local fault, hitting some of you quantum debts with a hammer proverbial hammer, if you- information is sufficiently idealized. It is protected from that local fault.

and to me. I think, that humans, humans fluctuating ran, they can get corrupted. They can get bought out and if you have a top down hierarchy, where very few people control many notes of many system and our civilisation. That is now for torrents system. You corrupt, a few notes and selling corrupted. The whole system ran like we saw at opening. I a couple board members and they had enough power to potentially collapsed organization and at least to me you know. I think, making sure that power for this, I revolution, doesn't concentrated in the hands of the few is one of our top priorities so that we can maintain progress.

I and we can maintain a nice stable, adversarial equilibrium of powers. I think their pleas to me attention and I hear so to me- deceleration can be both eustace centralized power and to do so why it then the same with acceleration. So I those using them a little bits anonymously or nuts anonymously, but there's one is going to, to the other- and I just would like to ask you about- is there a place of creating a fall? our development diverse development away. I that also considers the dangers of air, and I look and journalists to technology in general is, should we just grow, build.

Unrestricted as quickly as possible, because that's what the universe is really wants to do or is there place to where we can consider dangers and actual delivery server? wise strategic optimism, verses, reckless optimism. I think we'd get painted as reckless trying to go as fast as possible, I mean the reality is that whoever deploys an ai system is liable for or should be liable for what it does, So if the organization or person deploying any I system does something terrible their reliable and ultimately, the thesis is that the market will induce sort of wool positively select for a eyes that are more reliable, more safe and ten

the alliance to do what you want them to do right, because customers read if there are liable for the product they put out that uses say I they won't want to buy a products that are unreliable, I saw ass she for reliability engineering. We just think that the market is much more efficient achieving she sort of reliability optimum, then sort of her. Handed radio agents that are written by the incumbents hand, in a subversive fashion, serves them to achieve regulatory capture. The view safe air. I developmental will be achieved through market forces versus through, like you said, heavy handed gov a regulation, there's a report from last month of nothing

she's here for my youtube and george of him than many others stand the managing a risk, an error of rapid progress, so there collection of folks who are very worried about to rapid, development of day will now considering air risk, never bunch of practical, recommendations. Maybe I a before you see if you, like any other, so good independent auditors, access to air lapse on to governments- and companies allocate a one third of their hey, I research and development funding to air safety. So this general concept of air safety three. I companies are required to adopt safety measures if dangerous, kip Please found in their models, for something kind of mention making tech companies liable for foreseeable and preventable harms from their? I says

so independent auditors gomes accompanies the forced to spend a significant faction of their funding and safety He dug have safety measures if I was really wrong and liability countries reliable. I knew that seem like something we agree with. I would say that here assigning just arbitrarily saying thirty percent seems very arbitrary. I think organizations would allocate what our budget is needed. achieve the sort of reliability need to achieve to perform in the market, and I think tat party auditing firms would naturally pop up because how it cost there's no, that year, product is certified reliable ranting to see some benchmarks in those need to be done by a third party. The thing I would oppose anything I'm seeing its really worrisome is there's a sort of weird

sort of correlated interests between the incumbents, the big players and the government, and if the to get too close, we open the door. For you know some sort of government backed a cartel. They could have apps the power of the people as they have the monopoly together on a high, and nobody else has access to high. Then there's a huge power gradient there, and even if you like our current leaders. Right. I think that you know some. Leaders and big tech today are good people. you you set up, centralized power structure it becomes a target rate, just like we saw at opening. I it becomes a market leader, has either power and now it becomes a target for those that want to co, opt it, and so I just want separation of ai and

state. You know some might argue in the opposite direction like here. We need to close down. I keep it. closed doors because of geopolitical competition with her or adversaries. I think the strength of america has its variants. Its is its adaptability is dynamism, and we need to maintain that at all costs the sort of free market capitalism converges on too knowledge is of high utility much faster than centralized control, and it We lack of that. We like over mean advanced gee over our aren't. You appear competitors of asia. I turned out to be a really powerful technology, even or you the technology that led up to asia what's your view on the of natural centralisation that happens when a large, Companies dominate the market, major monopolies like the the take off

whichever company, really takes a big leap in development and doesn't reveal. Intuitively implicitly or explicitly the secrets of the magic sauce they can just run away with. It is said that a worry I don't know if I believe in fast take on. I don't think, there's a hyperbolic singularity rate hyperbolic singularity would be achieved on a finite time horizon. I think it's just one big exponential and the reason we have an exponential is that we have, more people, more resources, more intelligence being applied to advancing this science and research and development and the successful. It is the more values adding to society the more resources we put in and that sort of timor's laws compounding exponential. I think the priority to me as too maintain near equilibrium of capabilities. We ve been fighting for open source ay I to be more prevalent and championed,

many organisations, because there you sort of the collaborate the alpha relative to the market of the ice ran. So if, if the leading companies have a certain level of capabilities and open source and open truly open a high trails, not too far behind, I think, You avoid such a scenario where a market leader has so much market power just dominates everything, rent and runs away, and so to us. That's that's the forward is to make sure that every hacker out there, every gradually every kid in their minds. Basement has access to you know I systems can understand how to work with them and can contribute to the search over the hyper parameter space of how to engineer the system's rain. If you, if you think of our collective research, as as as the civilization,

It's really a search, algorithm and and the more points we in the search algorithm in this point cloud, the more will be exploited able to explore new modes of thinking right here it feels like a delicate balance, because we don't stand exactly what it takes, they gee. I wonder, will look like we build it s so far, like you said, It seems like a lot of different parties. Are able to make progress. So an opening. I has a big leap the companies able to step up big and small companies in different ways, but you subject nuclear weapons is spoken by the manhattan project. That could be really like technological engineering barriers that prevent the Governor moms basement to to make progress, and it's it's

music that transition to that kind of world were only one player, cannot asia is possible, is not entirely impossible, even though the current state of things seem to be optimistic. that's what we're trying to avoid to me, I think, click. Another point of failure is the the centralisation of the supply chain for the hardware area. We have in video is just the dominant player, in these trailing behind, and then we have. Here, some see as their main fab, in taiwan, which you know Joe politically sensitive and we have a s which is the maker of their lives professor extreme ultraviolet, lithography machines. You know attacking or monopolizing, quoting any one point in that chain. We kind of capture capture the space, and so what I m

trying to do is sort of explode the variants of possible ways to do. I am hardware by funding and the remaining, how you betty, I algorithms into the physical world and in general, by the way I dislike the from asia, artificial general intelligence. I think it's very anthropocentric that we call human like human level here, Artificial general intelligence right, I spent my career so far, exploring oceans of intelligence, that no biological brain could achieve friend, quantum form of intelligence rain groping. systems that have multiparty quantum entanglement tat. You can probably not, represent efficiently on a classic your computer, a classical deep learning representation and hence any sort of biological, brain and so

already, I spend my career sort of exploring the wider space of intelligent, says, and I think that space of intelligence inspired by physics rather than human brain is very large, and I think we're going through a moment right now, similar to when we went from geo centralism to heal, helio centralism right, but for intelligence. We realise that human integrity This is just a point, a very large space of potential intelligences and its both humbling for humanity to bits. Scary read that were not at the centre of the space. But we made that realisation, fur astronomy and we survived in with achieved technologies by indexing.

Reality with the chief technologies that ensure our well being. For example, we have satellite monitoring, solar flares strained that give us a warning, and so similarly, I think by letting go of this anthropomorphic anthropocentric anchor more fake anthropocentric anchor free. I won't be able to explore the wider space intelligences. They can really the massive benefit to our well being and the advancement of civilization and still were able to see the beauty and meaning in the human experience. Even though we are no longer enough understanding of the world at the centre of it. think, there's a lot of beauty and the universe ray. I think life itself civilization this homer techno capital nomadic machine that we all live in France, that we have humans technology capital means everything, is coupled to one another. Everything

This is a selective pressure on one another, ass, a beauty four machine that has created us was created, You know the technology we're to speak today to the audience capture speech here of technology. We augment ourselves. Every day we have our phones. I think the system is beautiful and the principle that Induces this sort of adaptability and convey genes on optimal technologies, ideas and so on. It's it's a beautiful principle that were part of- and I think part of e act is to appreciate this principle in a way that not just centred on and humanity but kind of broader I appreciate life, you know the preciousness of of consciousness in our universe and because we harris. This beautiful.

State of matter wherein we wish we gotta, fill a responsibility to to scale it in order to preserve and because the options are to grow or die. so if it turns out there beauty that is consciousness in the universe, is bigger than ass humans. The air. I can carry that same flame forward. Does it scare? You are you concerned that I will replace humans so my career I had a moment were realised that. You know, maybe we need to offload to machine and to truly understand the universe around us rain instead of having humans with pennant paper solve at all, and to me that sort of process of letting go have a bit of agency. Gave us way more leverage, tunnel,

and the world around us is acquiring computers much better than a human to understand matter at the at the nato. Similarly, I think that Humanity has a choice: do we accept the opportunity to have intellect sure and operational leverage that he I would unlock and thus ensure that we're taking along this path of growth in scope and scale of civilization, we may dilute ourselves right? There may be a lot of workers that are high, but overall out of our own self interest, Combining and odd minting ourselves with a high we're to achieve much higher growth and much more prosperity. Read to me. I think that the most likely future is one where humans augment themselves with a sigh. I think we're already

on this path. Documentation we have phones, we use for communication. we have on ourselves at all times. We have wearable soon that have shared perception with straight like the humanely. I panther I mean technical. Your tesla car has shared perception if you have shared experience, shirt context, you communicate with one another and you have some sort of I oh really it's an extension yourself and to me I think them humanity augmenting itself with a sigh. And having a that is not anchored to anything. Biological both were coexist, and the way to align the parties Where do you have a certain mechanism? Tell line super intelligent

says that are made of humans and technology right companies are sort of large mixture of expert models where we have now all routing of tasks within a company, and we have ways of economic change to line these behemoths and to me I think capitalism is the way, and I do think that whatever configuration of matter or information leads to mass. More growth will be where we converge. Just from like physical principle, and so we can either align ourselves to that reality and and join the acceleration of the skin scope scale a civilization or we can get left behind and true

I too decelerated move back in the forest like of technology and return to our primitive state, and those are the two paths forward. To me, but there's a philosophical question, whether this alone Where do the human capacity to align? So let me bring it up. As a form of argument. This guy named dan hendricks, and he wrote that He agrees with you. The development could be viewed as an evolutionary process, but him to Dan is not a good thing, as he argues that natural slow can favours s eyes over humans and this could lead to human extinction. What do you think if it is enough she process any. I systems may have no need for humans. I do

think that were actually inducing an evolutionary process on the space of a through the market rate right now, we run a eyes that positive utility to humans and that induces a selective pressure. If you consider a neural net being alive when there's a an api running instances of it, Andre pews right and which applies, get run, the ones that have high utility to us right, sir, or to how we domesticated war and turn them into dogs. They are very clear in their expression, the very aligned right. I think, there's gonna be an option to steer, a and achieve highly aligned here, and I think that, Humans policy, I, as a very full combination- and it's not clear to me that

pure. I would selected tat combination that humans are creating the selection pressure right now to create eyes there, to humans, but given how ai develops and how quickly can grow and scale one of the concerns me one of the desert unintended consequences that humans are not able to anticipate or the consequences of this process. The scale of damage that can be done through unintended consequences of the eye system is very large scale. The upside near right by augmenting ourselves with the eye is on an unimaginable right now that the opportunity cost We were at a fork in the road right whether we take the path of creating this. Knowledge is augment ourselves and get to climb up the kurdish issue

it'll become multi planetary, with the aid of ai or. We have a hard cut off of like we dont birth, these technologies at all, and then we leave all the potential upside on the table, the rate and to me out of responsibility to the future humans. We could carry rate with higher costs. Incapacity by scaling up civilization, are the responsibility of those humans. I think we have to make the greater grander future happen. Is it middle ground between cut off and all systems girl. there's some argument for caution. I think, like I said, market will exhibit caution. Ever organism company consumer his acting out of self interest and they want assign capital to things that have negative utility to them. The promise The market is like there's not always perfect. Information does manipulation, is so bad faith actors

ass of the system it is not always easy. Rational and honest system will that's why we need, for. damn information? Freedom of speech and freedom of thought in order to converge be able to converge on the subspace of technologies that have positive utility for us all. Well, let me ask you about p doom probability of doom. It's just fun the say enough, not iranians? What is to you the probability that a man she kills all or most humans, also known as probability of doom, I'm not a fan of calculation, I think it's people just throw numbers out there at the very sloppy calculation right, take calculator, probability, You know, let's say you model. The word

as some sort of markov process, if you have enough terrible, sir hidden markov process, you need to do us stochastic path into growth through the spaces, all possible futures, not just the features that your brain naturally steers towards rant, and I think that the estimated of p doom are biased because of or biology right where it we ve evolved to have by a sampling towards negative features that are scary because, though, is an evolutionary optimum right and so people that let's say higher neurotic neurotic ism, we'll just think of negative, futures where everything goes wrong all day. Every day and and claim that they're doing, unbiased sampling and senseless

they're, not normalizing, for the space of all possibilities in the space of all possibilities is like super exponentially large and it's very To have this estimate and in general I dont think that we can predict the future without much granularity because of of chaos rain. If you have a complex system, you have some uncertainty and a couple variables. Sheila time time evolve, you have this concept of a of the alpine off exponents right, a bit of fuzz. becomes a lot of funds in our estimate exponentially so overtime and down I think we need to show some humility that we can actually predict the future all we know that prior, we have is the laws of physics and ass. They were Doing for the laws of physics, say the system or want to grow and sub systems that are optimized for growth are.

more and replication are more likely in the future, and so we should aim to Maximize, are crape mutual information with the future and the path towards that his first accelerate, rather than dslr it. So I dont have a p doom max. I think that you know similar to the quantum supremacy experiment at Google. I was in the room when they were running the simulations for that that was an example of the quantum chaotic system where you, you cannot even estimate probabilities, a certain outcomes with even the biggest supercomputer in the world and dumb so an example of chaos, and I think the system is far too chaotic for anybody to have an accurate estimate of the likelihood,

a certain futures, if they were that good, I think they would be very rich, ah trading on the stock market, but nevertheless is true. The human the biased grounded in our evolutionary biology scare. of everything they kill us, but what so imagine different trajectories. They can kill us We don't know. all the other ones, that don't necessarily, but it's still, I think, useful, combined with some basic intuition, grounded in human history, teresa in about like what, like looking at geopolitics, looking eyes: basics of human nature. How can powerful technology hurt a lot of people I just seems in grounded in that, looking at- nuclear weapons did you start to estimate p doom in us in maybe in a more philosophical sons,

but not a mathematical and philosophical meaning like is there a chance? human nature tend towards the or not. I I think to me. One of the biggest existential risks would be the concentration of the power of a lie in the hands of the very few, especially if it's a mixed between the companies, that, control the flow of information and the government, because that could set things up for a sort of disturbing in future, where very few an oligopoly and the government has a high and they could even can the public that ay I never existed. And that opens up some of these. Scenarios for authoritarian, essential as control which to me is the the darkest timeline and the reality is that we have the prior. We have data

In prior of these, things happening right when you it's too much power when you centralize power too much and humans do horrible things right and into me. That has a much higher likelihood in my bazin inference. Then a sci fi based priors right, like my prior came from the terminator movie And- and so when I talked to these ai, I do mirrors. I just asked them to trace a path through this markov chain of events that would lead to our doom rate and to actually give me a good probability for each transition and very often there's a on physical or highly unlikely transition in that chain. Rent but, of course, were wired to fear things and Wired to respond to danger and we're wired to

in the unknown to be dangerous, because that's a good heuristic for survival rate, but there is much more to lose out of fear. We have so much to lose so much upside to lose by preemptively. Stopping the positive features from from happening out of fear, and so I think that we shouldn't are given to fear I fear, is the mine killer. I think it's also the civilization killer. Would you still think about various ways? Things go wrong: preserve the founding fathers is the united states thought about nature and that's why they're there's a discussion about the? meetings that are necessary, they really deeply we heard about that and I think the same could possibly be done for asia. I It is true that history, human history, shows that

ten towards centralisation, or at least when we choose centralization a lot about stuff, happens on theirs dictator, alot of dark bad things However, the question is: can asia I become their dictator in gee I won develop, becomes centralizing because of its power Maybe has the same because of the way with humans. Perhaps the same tendencies, the same stolen, like tendencies decentralizing manage centrally the allocation of resources you see, there is a compelling argument and the surface level: will they dji so much smarter, so much more efficient better at allocating resources. Why don't we outsource it to the asia? I. and then eventually, whatever forces that corrupted when mind with power, could do the same for asia.

We'll just say, while he was indispensable, we'll get rid of them do the Jonathan swift, modest proposal. from a few centuries ago. I think Seventeen hundreds when he said ethically suggested that I think it's in ireland that the children of poor people are fed as food to the rich. people- and there will be a good idea because it decreases the amount of poor people in Gaza your income to the poor people, thoughts and several accounts decreases. The amount of poor people. Therefore, more people become rich of Said missus a fundamental piece here, that's hard to put it Mathematical equation of the basic law. if human life, so of that to say, are used. by asia, I being

very centralized power has talked about. I do think that right now, there's a biased towards over centralisation of asia, because compute density and centralization centralisation of data and how We're training models. I think over time I'm working to run out of data to scrape over the internet, and I think that Well, actually, I'm working on increasing the compute density stay compute. Be everywhere and acquire in. For me, asian and test hypotheses in the environment and distributed fashion. I thought fundamentally centralized cybernetic control so having one intelligence. That is massive, that you know fuses many sensors, and is trying to perceive the world accurately predicted accurately predict many variables

control it went enact its will upon the world. I think that's just never been the optimum right like let's see house accompany you know if you have, a company out of ten thousand people that all report to the ceo. Even if that's you, I was in high. I think it would struggle to fuse all the information that is coming to it and then predict the whole system and then to enact it's, it's will what has emerged in nature, and in corporations and all sorts of systems is an ocean of sort of hierarchy, goal cybernetic, control right. You have you in a company, We have like the individual contributors, their self interested in and in their turn, achieve their their tasks and they have of a fine in terms of time and space. If you will control loop and in feel that perception,

right. They have their code base, let's say you're new software company and have their code base the iterated on it in day right and then the management, maybe checks in it, has a wider scope. It has with the five reports red and then it samples each person At their once per week, and then you can go up the chain and have larger timescale and greater scope and it seems to have emerged, a sort of their the optimal way to the control systems and really that's what capitalism gives us right Have these and this hierarchy is, and you can even have a parent company and so on, and so that is far more while torrent quantum computing. That's my field. I came from. We have a a concept of of this fault, tolerance and quantum air correction rate. Quantum error correction is detecting a fault that came from noise predicting

how it's propagated through the system and then correcting at rates cybernetic loop and it turns out tat decoders debtor hierarchical. and at each level the hierarchy or local perform the best by far and are far more fall torrent and the reason is, if you have a non local decoder, then you have one fault. This control known and the horses them sort of crash Similarly, to if you have, you know one, ceo that everybody reports too, and I see a good indication. The whole company come circle right and so to me. I think that yes, we're seeing a tendency towards centralisation of a, but I think, there's gotta be a crime and over time were intelligence is gonna, go closer to the perception and rigour were he to break up a high in two

Our subsystems that communicate with one another and form a sort of mega system you look at the higher is there in the world today is nations and those are her uncle, but in relation to each other. Nations are an arctic says, an anarchy, It would give us your world like this, where There's not over. Would you call essential I cybernetic control? Looked centralized locus of control is so that's bob familiar saying yet to be always a state of competition at the very top level get just like you, in a company, you may have like two units consumer technology and competing with one another and you. prune the one that performs not as well written ass, a sort of selection process for a tree or a product gets killed great and then a whole or gets fired. And that's this

processes of trying new things and and and shutting things that in a work, is this? What gives us adaptability and how, his converge on. You know the technologies and to do that are most gettin. I just If there's not a failure mode, that's unique to Agee I versus humans, because you you're describing human systems mostly right now, frank, I just hope when there is a monopoly in asia in one company, that's wilson the central issue of humans, which is another company or sprang up and start competing. I mean why that's been the case so far, right. You have openly I we have and through our big now we have actually I you know, we had met her even for open source, and now we have Straw ran, which is highly competitive, and so that's the beauty of capitalism. You don't have to trust any one party too much as it were kind of always hedging.

That's at every level, there's always competition, and that's the most beautiful thing to me at least, is that the whole system is always shifting. is adapting and maintaining that dynamism is how we afford tyranny right. making sure that an effort One has access to these tools to these more was and can contribute to the research avoids a sword neural tyranny, where very few people peep people have troll over I for the world and and use it to oppress those around them,. when you were talking about intelligence, you mentioned multiparty quantum entanglement so high level. Question first, is that What do you think is intelligence, we think about quantum Assistance in you observed some kind of computation happening in them. What do you think

is intelligent about the kind of computational universe is able to do a small scale. Inkling of which is the kind of competition the human brain is able to do. I would say, like intelligence and computation are quite the same thing. I think the The universe is very much doing. quantum computation. If you had access to all the There is a freedom you can avail a very, very large quantum computer. With many many many cubits, let's say a few cubits per plank volume, which was more or less the pixels we have. I didn't you you'd be able to celebrate the whole universe ran on a cop a sufficiently large current computer. Assuming you're looking

a finite volume, of course, of the universe, and I think that at least to me, intelligences D, you do I go back to cybernetic straight the ability to perceive predicting controller world. Really it's nowadays. It seems like a lot of intelligence. We use is more about compression it's about em, it's about operational icing information theory written and for me, In theory, you have the notion of entropy of a distribution or a system, and, turkey tells you that you need this many bits to encode this distribution or the subsystem. If you had the most optimal coat and a I police, the way we view we do it today for albums and fur

is is very much trying to minimize relative entropy, between our models of the world and the world distributions from the world. And so were learning researching over the space of computations to process the world? The fine that compressed representation that has destroyed old hall, the variants and noise and entropy, and, and originally I I came to call him machine learning from the study of black holes, because the entropy of black holes is very interesting and assess their physically. The most dense objects in the eu Worse, you can't pack more information spatially, anymore stensland and black hole

I was wondering how do black holes actually encode information? What is their compression code, and so that got me into the space of algorithms to search over space of quantum codes and die. He got me action too. Also, how do you choir climb information, though from the world of something I've worked on? This is public now Is quantum analogue digital conversion so you capture and for me from the real world and superposition and not destroy the superposition but digitize for a quantum mechanical computer. the information from the real world and Sophie. have inability to capture quantum information and search over there. representations of it now

you can learn compressed representations that may have some useful information in their latent representation, and I think that many of the problems facing our civilization. Actually beyond this, this complexity barrier in the greenhouse effect is a quantum mechanical effect and chemistry is quantum mechanical. You know, nuclear physics is quantum mechanical alot of biology, and and and and protein folding and so on is affected by quantum mechanics, and so unlocking an ability to augment human intellect with quantum again computers in quantum mechanical ay. I seem to me like a fundamental capability, for civilization that we we needed to develop, and so I spent several years doing that

but over time a kind of grew weary of the the timelines. Starting to look like nuclear fusion, hello question again: ask is maybe, by way of definite, and by way of explanation, what is a quiet computer? What is quantum machine learning so A quantum computer really is a quantum mechanical system over which we have sufficient control. Can maintain its quantum mechanical state and quantum mechanics is how nature behaves at the very small skills when things are very small or very cold, and it's actually more fundamental than probability theory so reuse, two things being this or that, but were not used to thinking in superposition cause more brains? Can

do not so we have to translate the con mechanical world to say later algebra to rocket on four way that translation is exponentially inefficient on average and you have to represent things with very large matrices, but really you can make it honey computer out of many things right and we ve seen all sorts of players. You know from neutral Adams, trap, diane's, superconducting, metal, photons and at different frequencies? I think he can make a conning computer. Things, but to me the thing I was really interesting was both Quantum machine learning was about understanding on a mechanical world with chronic computers. embedding too the whole world into a I representations and cloning. Computer engineering was in bed I algorithms into the physical world

by direction reality of bedding physical wouldn t I'm here to fiscal world, the some symbols between physics, any I really that's the sort of core of my quest really even to this day. After going computing, it's still in a sort of journey to merge, really physics any I the mentally to corner machine learning, is a way to Do machine learning on. A representation of nature. That is zero True to the quantum mechanical aspect of nature, yeah, it's learn. quantum mechanical representations. Be conon deep learning. Alternatively, you can try to do classical machine learning on a corner computer. I would advise it because I'm

You may have some speed ups, but very often the speed ups come with huge costs using according computer is very expensive. Why is that? Because you Soon the computer is operating at zero temperature, which no official system. The universe can achieve a temperature. So what you have do is what have been mentioning this quantum air correction process, which is. Really and algorithmic. Fridge right is trying to pump entropy out of the system to get closer to the zero temple and when you do the calculations of how many resources, it would take to say, do deep learning on a quantum computer, classical deep learning its there's just such a huge overhead. It's not worth it! It's like thinking about shipping, something across a city using a rocket and going to orbit back. It doesn't make sense, just use and very truck we're gonna stop. Can you figure How can you predict? Can you understand with corner?

deep learning that you can't with deep learning soap in corporate in quantum mechanical systems into the until the learning process. I think that's a good question I mean fundamentalists. Any system that has sufficient quantum mechanical correlations that are very hard to capture for classical representations Then there should be an advantage for a quantum mechanical representation over a purely classical when the question is which systems have sufficient correlations that are very quantum but is also wish systems are still relevant to industry. That's a big question, You know people are leaning towards chemistry, nuclear physics and I've worked on actually processing inputs from quantum sensors, right. If you have a network of quantum sensors, they ve captured a quantum mechanics

image of the world and how to post process that the becomes a sort of quantum form of machine perception and so, for example, fermi lab, has a project exploring detecting dark matter with these quantum sensors and to me, that's an alignment with my quest to understand the universe. Ever since I was a child and so some day, I hope that we can have very large networks of corn sensors that help us peer until the earliest parts of the universe. Right, for example, the logo is a quantum sensor raised very large one, so yeah I'd, say quantum machine perception. Simulations re cracking climb simulations of similar to our fault rain. Alpha fold, understood. the probability distribution over configurations of proteins. You can understand

atom distributions over configurations of electrons more efficiently with quantum machine learning you co, authored paper, titled a universal training algorithm for a quantum deep learning that involves back prop with the well done, sir. Jordan done how work as it is there some interesting aspects you can just mention I'll come back problem decision of four classical machine learning transfer over. to those at the bottom missionary. Yet I was desert. There's a funky paper, those one of my first papers in quantum deep learning everybody was saying. Oh, I think deep learning is going to be sped up by quantum computers sounds like, while the best way to predict the future is to invent it. So here's a hundred page paper

and essentially he you know. Quantum computing is usually you embed, reversible operations into a quantum computation, and so the trick there was to do a feed forward operation and do what we call a phase kick, but really it's just a force. Kick you just kick the system, ah with a certain force that is, you know proportional to your boss, function that you, you wish to optimize and then, by performing on computation, you start with a super positions over the supervision over promoters right, which is pretty funky and now you're. Not just you, don't have just a point for promoters. You have a superposition over many potential parameters rate and our goal is using face, kicks somehow right to adjust, for embryos could face, kicks, emulate

having the parameters. Space be like a particle in an dimensions and your team I get the shooting her equation, shooting the debt dynamics in the last landscape of the neural network rate So you do an algorithm to induce this face, kick which involves a feedforward, a kick, and then, when you on compute the feedforward, then all the errors in these face kicks in these forces back propagate and hit each one of them amateurs threat the layers, and if you alternate this with an emulation of kinetic energy, then it's kind of like a particle moving in an dimensions, a quantum particle and the advantage in principle would be that it can get tunnel through the landscape

and and find new optima that would have been difficult for stochastic, optimizers and but again, this kind of a theoretical thing and in practice with at least the current architectures for quantum computers that we have planned. Ah you have such alguns would be extremely expensive to run the movie. This is a good place to ask the difference routine. The different fields, eve had a tool in the mathematics, physics, engineering and also on japan, entrepreneurship ship, like the different layers of the stack, my thing alive the stuff you talking about. Here's a little brother math side may be physics almost king leary. What's the difference between math physics engineering, and here make making products for a quantum competing for quantum

yeah I mean you know something original team for the tenth reflect quantum project which we started. You know in school near receding www, and there is myself initially was a physicist politician mathematician. We had a computer scientist we had mechanical engineer and then we nimh resist those experimental, primarily and so putting together teams that have cross, disciplinarian and figuring out how to communicate and and share knowledge is really the key to doing this sort of in display interdisciplinary engineering work, and I mean there is there- is a big difference. You know in in mathematics. You can explore mathematics for mathematics sake and Six, your applying mathematics to understand the world around us an engineer I you're trying to China. China hack the world, really fine, how to apply the physics Then I know my knowledge of the world to do things while

while competing in particular? I think there is a just a lot of women. Stings nearing just seems to be extremely hard: yeah soul, there's a lot of value to be exploring quietly. in quite quantum machine learning in the theory with with math I. So I guess one question is: why is it so hard will the quantum computer. What are what's your view of timelines in bringing these ideas to life right I think that an overall theme of my company is that we have folks that are, you know, there's a sort of exodus from quantum computing and we're going to broader physics based the ai. That is not quantum that gives you a hint, and so we should say the name. He accompanies extra pick extra,

I think that's right and we do physics based the eye primarily based on thermodynamics, rather than quantum mechanics, but essentially a quantum computer is very difficult to build, because you have to induce this sort of zero temperature subspace of information, in and the way to do that is by encoding information. You incur The code within occurred within a code within a code and so there's a lot of redundancy needed to do this error correction, but ultimately, it's a sort of algorithmic refrigerator really has just pumping out entropy out of the system

The sub system that is virtual and andy localised that represents your quantum quote. Logical cubits, gave the payload quantum best in which you have she wanted. I do run your quantum mechanical programme is very difficult because, in order to scale up your conning computer, you need each component to be of sufficient quality for it to be worth it, because if you try to do this, air correction miss quantum air correction process in each quantum bit, I have control over them, isn't if it's insufficient and it's not worth scaling up you're, actually adding more errors than you remove, and so there's this notion of a threshold where, if your quantum bits are of sufficient quality in terms of your control over them, it's actually worth scaling up. Actually, in recent years, people have been crossing the threshold and it's starting to be worth it, and so it's just a very long slog of engineering,

but ultimately it's really crazy to me how much exquisite level sure we have already systems, it's actually quite crazy and worry people are kept. Sing in other know. Achieving milestones. It's just you know general the media always gets ahead rate of where the technology is. There is a bit too much hype, it's good for fund raising, but sometimes you know it causes. Winters rate is too high cycle. I'm bullish on quantum computing honour ten fifteen year timescale personally, but I think there's other questions we've done in the meantime. I think it's in good hands right now. Well, let export different beautiful ideas. large or small in quantum competing that might jump body from memory. I saw you co author, a paper tiger,

Sm topically limitless quantum energy teleportation via Q. Det probes suggest that out of curiosity, can you explain what you did is a cubit yeah and so is a d state. I cubit to multi dimensional multi dimensional right, it's like a wire you can. You have the notion of lichen and de jure floating point. That is quite a mechanic. Let something I've had to think about. I think that risk, There was a precursor to later work on quantum analogue digital conversion. There there is interesting because during their masters I was trying to understand The energy and entanglement of the vacuum. Rent of emptiness emptiness has energy, which was very well to say and are equations of cosmology don't match

calculations for the amount of quantum energy there are. There is in the fluctuations, and so I was trying to hack the energy of the vacuum right and the realities that you can't just directly hack it it doesn't. It's not technically free energy, your lack of knowledge of the fluctuations means you can extract the energy, but, just like you know the stock market. If you have a stock, that's correlated over time the vacuums actually correlated. So if you measured the vacuum at one point, you acquired information is communicated that information to another point, you can infer what configuration the vacuum is in to some precision and statistically extract. On average, some energy, their seif quote, unquote, teleported energy. To me. That was interesting because you could create pockets of negative

energy density, which is energy density. That is below the vacuum, which is very weird because we don't understand how the vacuum gravitates and- and there are theories where the vacuum or the canvas of space time itself is really a a canvas made out of quantum entanglement and I was studying how decreasing energy vacuum locally increase, his quantum entanglement, which is very funny, and so the thing there is that you know If you're into a weird theories about you know you a piece hot, you know

or you could try to imagine that they're they're around and and how would they propel themselves right? How would they go faster than the speed of light? You would need a sort of negative energy density and to me I gave it the old college, try trying to hack the energy vacuum and hidden limits allowable by laws of physics, but there there's also caviars there, where you can't extract more than youth you ve put in august, the boy you're saying it's possible, teleport, the energy, because you can extract information one place and they make peace and that some kind of prediction about another place, my shoulder make of it,

At the comments, it's a allowable by the laws of physics. That the reality, though, is that the correlations decay with distance and so you're going to have to pay the price not too far away from where you extracted the precision decreases me into the ability but still says emerging. Now you a peace without one intelligence that I forgot to ask would to review and the other possible intelligences they're out there at the at the massive scale, do you think, there's other intelligent, alien civilizations. They useful to think about. Half. Do you think about it? I think it's. I think it's useful to think about it's useful to think about, because bigger ensure we're anti fragile and we're. You know trying to increase their capable

these as fast as possible because we could get disrupted like there's no laws of physics against their being life else where they can evolve and become an advanced civilization and eventually come to us. I do I think, they're here now, I'm not sure I I mean have have have read What most people have read on the topic? I think it's interesting to consider and to me it's a useful thought experiment to instil a sense of urgency. Developing technologies and increasing our capabilities to make sure we don't get disrupted right, whether it's a form of of a kind that disrupts us were foreign intelligence from a different planet like either way like increasing our capability and becoming forever format.

As humans. I think that's that's really important, so that were robust against whatever the universe throws out us, but to me the same interest in interesting challenge. And thought experiment on how to perceive intelligence. This has to do with compatible systems, as do with with any kind of system does not like humans. So to me the thought experiment say the aliens are here or they are directly both were just to blind to self centered. I don't have the right sensors Don't have the right processing the sensor data to see the obvious intelligence? That's all around us Well, that's why we work on caught him. Sensors right, they can sense, gravity grab, but there could be so that's a good one, but there could be a list of this. Even in the yard.

Currently known forces of physics right there could be some other stuff and the most entertaining thought. Experiment means that is other stuff, that Obvious is that, like we don't really like this hazardous all around us the desert consciousness being one possible one, but it can be stuff they just like. Obviously there. they want. You know it is like right right. That's that's that's the thing we thought is somehow emerging from the laws of physics who understand them is actually a fundamental part. Of the universe and can be incorporated in physics misunderstood, statistically speaking, right if we observed some sort of alien life. It would most likely be some sort of viral self replicating von name like probe system right in and its possible that their own there are

such systems that I know what they're doing at the bottom of the ocean, allegedly, but maybe there collecting minerals, the bottom, the ocean now, but down violet violate any my priors, but my certain that this system are here in, and it be difficult from say so red. I only have second hand information about there being data about the bottom of the ocean yeah, but you gotta be things like means. Could it be thoughts and ideas, they be operating in that medium. Could aliens be the very thought that come into my head, like? What do you have you? How do you know that How do you know that that was the origin of ideas? In your mind, If idea comes your head, Show me word originates. I mean free, we want. Had the idea for the type of computer

and building now I think I was eight years ago now. It really fella goes being being from space is just as in bed just shaking just thinking it through, and I don't know but doable Leave that legitimately excited about it. You know, I think that dumb alien life could many forms, and I think the notion of intelligence and the notion of life needs to be expanded and much more broadly ought to be less anthropocentric or by a centric just linger a little longer on quantum mechanics, what sir, through all your aspirations of chronic beating was the costs most beautiful idea. They ve come across. The husband sombre has not yet been solved. I think the journey to understand something called eighty

safety, so the journey to understand quantum gravity through this picture, where a hologram of lesser dimension is she dual or exactly corresponding to a bulk? the theory of quantum gravity of an extra dimension and the fact that the sort of duality comes from trying to learn deep learning, like representations of the boundary, and so I always part of my journey someday on my boy it lists is to apply quantum machine learning to these sorts of systems, these sea of teaser They're called s: why came models and learn emergent geometry from from the boundary theory

and so we can have a form of machine learning, helps us to help us understand. Coreham gravity and witches. There are still a holy grail that I would like to head before. I leave this earth what would you think is going on with black holes as in from, she storing and processing units woody things got our black holes. Black holes are really fascinating objects, there at the innocent interface between quantum mechanics and gravity and said they help us test all sorts of ideas, and I think that you have from many decades now, there's been. sir. This black hole information paradox that things that fall into the black hole seem too. We seem to have lost their information now, I think There's this fire wall paradox that has been alive.

Italy resolved in recent years by you know, or peer of mine is now professor at berkeley and die there. It seems like there is, as information falls into black hole. Sort of there's sort of a sedimentation rate as you as you get closer and closer to the horizon from the point of view of the observer on the outside, the object slows down infinitely as it gets closer and closer, and so everything that is falling to black hole from our perspective gets sort of segmented and tacked on to the near horizon. and at some point it gets so close, the rise in its in the proximity or the scale which, in which quantum effects in quantum fluctuations matter- and there are some that enforced.

Matter could interfere with sort of the traditional pictures and that you can interfere with the creation and annihilation of particles and anti particles in the vacuum, and through this interference, one of the particles gets entangled. with the following information, and one of them is now free and escapes and that's how their sort of meaning information between the outgoing radiation in the in matter, but getting that kelly? relation right. I think we're only just starting to have put the pieces together is a few hence my question: I want to ask you you're the one: does it terrify you that there's a giant black, for the sake of our galaxy, I just want to set up shop near it the too fast forward. You know meat and meat, a future solution

and ran like if we have a limited lifetime. If you can't go orbit a black hole in america so fewer like, if there is a special mission they could take it a black hole. Would you volunteered ago travel to orbit and are also not fall into, as this is obvious? it was obvious to you that everything's destroyed inside a black hole. The call the information that makes up guillermo is destroyed and may be on the other side, birth Jesus emerged and it's all like is tied together in some deeply meaningful way. Yeah I mean that's a great question. We we I have to answer what black holes are. They are we punching a hole through space time in creating a pocket universe. It's possible right, then, then that would mean that if we send the carter chef scale, do you not be, carter, chef type, three wicked.

Engineer and black holes with specific hyper parameters to transmit information to new universes we create, and so we can have progeny rent there are new universes, and so we, even though our universe, may reach he death. We may have a way to have a legacy, and so we don't Yet we need to ascend the kurdish scale to answer these questions right to peer into that regime of iron Gee physics and maybe in the speech of the commercial scale for people, don't know the one one of the sort of meme lake principle. And goals of, the act. Movement is to send the commercial scale. What is the cap? A kurdish of scale I wonder, we want ascended. The car sheepskin It is a measure of our energy production and consumption,

and really it's a logarithmic scale and carter chef type, one is a milestone aware we are producing the equivalent wattage who all the energy that is incident on earth from the sun, cartouche F type two would be harnessed. I all the energy that is output by the sun and I think type three is like the whole galaxy I think, for a warrior: yeah yeah and then some people have some crazy type. Four and five at an if than those. But to me it seems like from the first principles of thermodynamics that

and there's this concept of thermodynamic new driven, dissipative adaptation. Where you know life evolved on earth because we have this sort of energetic drive from the sun right. We have incident energy and life evolved on earth to capture figure out ways to best capture that free energy to maintain itself and and grow, and I think that without principle, it's not special to our earth sun system. We can and life well beyond, and we kind of have a responsibility to do so because that's the process that brought us here. So we don't even know what it has in store for us in the future. It could be something

duty we can imagine today. So this is probably a good place to talk a bit about the movement in a sub stack, blog post titled. What the fuck is he yak or actually what the f stars yak you write strategically speaking. We need to work towards several overarching civilization goals that are all interdependent and the foregoing, r increase the amount of energy we can harness as a species climb the carnage of gradient in the short term? This almost certainly means nuclear fission increase human flourishing via poor population growth policies and broken armor. with policies, create artificial journal intelligence, the single greatest forced multiplier in human history and finally develop interpreting dream, interstellar transport so that humanity may spread beyond the earth. Can you build on top of that? Maybe say

What to you is the act movement, one of the girls. What are the principles? The goal is for the human technical capital, nomadic machine to become self aware to hyper stitches Lee engineer its own growth. So, let's, let's deacon divine each of those words so see. Have humans have technology, you have capital and they have. You have means information. rate and all the systems are coupled with one another right humans work at companies they acquire and allocate capital and humans. Can you kid? by a means and information, propagation and our goal was to have a sort of viral optimistic movement That is aware of how the system works are fundamentally, it seeks to grow and we simply want

you lean and to the natural attendance these are the system to adapt for its own growth. In that way, you write the act is literally a medic optimism virus that is constantly drifting, mutating and propagating. In the dish choice fashion. So mimetic optimism iris see he wanted to be a virus dna to the spread. And its high prestigious. Therefore, Tourism will incentivize its growth see act as a sort of matter, heuristic, a sort of very thin cultural framework from which he can

have much more opinionated forks re. Fundamentally, we just say that it's good the sick. What goddess here is this adaptation of the whole system? You know based on their own in annex and that process is good and we should keep it going. right. That is the core thesis. Everything else is ok how how do we ensure that we maintain this malleability, and adaptability will clearly not suppressing variants, and in maintaining a free speech, freedom of thought, freedom of information, propagation and freedom. tim doing, research is important for us to converge the fastest on the spaces, technologies, ideas and what not that led to this growth. And- and so ultimately, you know, there's been quite a few forks. Some are just memes

Some are more serious right. Vitriolic peter in recently made a diet for has his own sort of fine tuning. Of yak does anything job? the memory of the unique characteristics of that fork from further talk, I would say that its is trying to find a middle ground between yakking sort of a aviation safety to me like having a movement that is opposite to what What's the mainstream narrative that was taking over silicon valley was important to sort of shift the dynamic range of opinions to, and you know it's it's like the balance- when centralisation and decentralization the real optimum, always somewhere in the middle rent, but but for iaq we're pushing for entropy novelty, corruption, malleability, speed rather than being like serve conservative, suppressing thought, suppressing speech, adding constraints, adding

Too many regulations slowing things down, and so it's kind of we're trying to bring balance to the force rain systems bells to the force. It's human civilization yeah, it's literally the forces of constraints versus the entropic force. That makes us Splore right systems are optimal when they're, at the edge of criticality, between order in chaos rate between constraints, an energy, minimization and entropy systems wanted click, create balance these two things, and so I thought that the balance was locked. And so we created this movement to the bring doubts. I like how a like this visual of the landscape of ideas, evolving through forks circular thinking on the other part of history? Think enough

marxism is the original repository and then said economies in the form of that, and then the maoists and mr fork of leave them. of marxism communism as all that those are all forks their exploring different ideas, thinking of sure, almost like code red nowadays, I mean here what you promised. The alarm or what you put the kind The of an airline is is, is basically its cultural framework. What it believes, trend and tat. You can chaired on github It is so starting trying to take inspiration from one has worked in the sort of the machine of software to adapt over the space of code. Can we apply that to culture? and our goal is to not say you should live your life. This way x Y, see is tat, is to set up a process where

people are always searching over cultures and competing for my share and I think creating this malleability of culture is super important for us to converge onto the cultures and the heuristics about how to live one's life that are updated to to modern times, because there's really been a sort of vacuum of spirituality and sure people don't feel like they belong to any one group and there's been parasitic ideologies that I've taken up opportunities to two populate. This petri dish of of mines, rain Eli calls it the mind virus. We call it the DSL mine virus complex, which is the decelerated that This kind of the the overall pattern between all them there's many variants as well, and so as a sort of viral pessimism, decelerated movement,

we needed to have not only one movement, but you know many many variance, it's very hard to pinpoint and stop but the overarching things. Nevertheless, a kind of. mimetic optimism pandemic, sir Ok, let me ask you: do you think he acts to some degrees caught? The fine thought, I think a lot of human progress. Made when I have independent thought the visuals are able to think freely and very powerful nomadic systems can can lead to. group think there's something in human nature, the least like mass hypnosis the stereo who start to think alike whenever it, a sexy idea, the catches, our minds,

It says that she hard to big break us apart. Poles apart diversified, thought some degree to towards degrees. Everybody be color chanting, Yeah yeah, like the sheep and animal farm, more first of all its fun, it's rebellious ran, like you know many. I think we linen to further. This concept of sort of matter, irony rate of sort of being on the boundary of like we're, not sure of theirs, yes or not, and it is much more play for much more fun rate like freezing If we talk about thermodynamics being our god rain and sometimes we do not like things but there's no like ceremony in roads, and I said no yet but ultimately young I mean I totally agree that it seems to me that humans, one, I feel like their part of the groups

We naturally try to agree with their neighbours and find common ground and, and that leads to sort of mode collapse in the space of ideas right, we used to have sort of one cultural, island that was allowed, it was a typical subspace of thought. In any thing, though, is diverting from nine subspace of thought with suppressed, or he were cancelled right now. We ve created a new mode, But the whole point is that we're not trying to have a very strict id space of thought. There's not just one way to think about iraq and it's many forks and the point is that there many forks and our can be many clusters and many islands, and I shouldn't in control of it In any way I mean, there's no formal, org whatsoever. I just put out.

Tweets and an answer and blog posts and people are free to the fact and fork. If there's an aspect I dont like- and so that makes it so that there should be a sort of deterring tonight de territory, realisation in the space of ideas so that we do not end up in one cluster. That's very cult like in so called, usually the they don't do not allow people to de facto start competing forks, whereas we courage it right. You think just the humor, the pros and cons of humor and meme that in some sense, meme. Physical wisdom to means the magic theatre. What book is therefrom? Herman has step a wolf, I think, but there is a kind of embracing of the absurdity there seems to get to the truth

things, but the same time. It can also decrease the quality and the rigour of the discourse they feel the tension of that year, sir. Initially, I think what allowed to grow under the radar was because it was camouflaged a sort of matter ironic rate. We would sneak in. You know, I'd deep truth within a package of humor. humor and means, and what are called shit posts and I think that was purposefully, a sort of camouflage against those that seek status and do not, want to is very hard to argue with a cartoon frog were a cartoon of intergalactic Jeff basis when take yourself seriously and so allowed. A lot is to grow pretty

apathy in the early days. But, of course like that that you know essentially p you'll get steered. The notion of the truth comes from the data they safe and from the infinite in their fat and information people are fed, is determined by algorithms. Right really. What we ve been doing is sort of engineering. What we call high mimetic fitness packets of information so that they can spread effectively and carry a message. Racists is kind of a vector to spread spread the message in and yes, we ve been using sort of techniques that are optimal fur for today's algorithmic amplified information landscapes, but I think were reaching the point of you know: scale where we can have serious debates and serious conversation

and send you know that's. Why were considering doing a bunch of debates in having more serious long form discussions, because I dont think that on the timeline is optimal for sort of very serious, thoughtful discussions. It get you get rewarded for sort of polarization red and so even though we started a movement that is they trying polarized the the tech ecosystem at the end of the day. It's so that we can have a conversation and find an optimum together. I mean this. What do I do was pike s, given the landscape of things. Do still have love conversations, but there is a degree to which absurdities fully embrace In fact, this very conversation is multi level absurd, so forthright say there. I just very recently had a conversation with Jeff bases.

and I would love to hear your bath js o's opinions of Jeff baisers speaking of intergalactic Jeff basis. What do you think of that particular individual? Whom your name is inspired yeah in mean Jeff, really great. I mean he's built one of the most epic companies of all, time he's leverage, the techno capital, machine and techno capital acceleration to give us? we wanted right. We want a quick delivery. Very convenient at home, low prices red. He understood how the machine worked and how to harness it right like running the company, not drink, trinity profits to early putting it back. Put it letting this system compound and keep improving and argue

blazing. Amazon's invested saw the most amount of capital and robotics out there and certainly but the birth of adobe, ass kind of and enable the sort of tat We ve seen today that has paid the salaries of you. I guess myself in all of our friends to some extent, and so I think we can all be grateful to no just in his why the great entrepreneurs out there, what a best of all time on arguably and, of course, the worker blue origin, similar to the work of space axis. Trying to make him as a model their species, which. it seems almost like a bigger thing. Then the capitals machine the council's machine, a different timescale, perhaps yeah. I think that new companies they tend to optimize you no quarter over quarter

maybe a few years out, but individuals that want to leave a legacy can think on the decade, all or multi century timescale, and so the fact that so, Individuals are such good capital alligators that the unlocked ability to allocate capitals to goals that take us much further or are much further looking. You know, yawns doing this with spacex putting all his capital towards getting us to mars and the Jeff is trying to the blue Origin- and I think he wants to build only or cylinders and get industry offplanet, which I think is brilliant. I think just overall, I'm I'm four billion airs and others controversial statements and times, but I think that in a sense, this kind of her a proof stake, voting right like even if you ve a choir. If you ve allocated capital efficiently, you get you unlock more capital to allocate just because,

Clearly, you know how to allocate cabinet more efficiently, which is in contrast to politicians that get elected, because they speak the best on tv right, not because they have a proven tracker, good of allocating taxpayer capital most efficiently, and so that's why I'm for capitalism over I hate giving all our money to the government and letting them figure out how to allocate it. So what do you think? It's us a viral is a popular meme too says billionaires, dimension, billionaires why think there's a quite a widespread criticism of people. Whilst especially those in the public eye like Jeff and alone, and mark Zuckerberg, even worse bill gates. Yet I think a lot of people would instead of trying to understand how the techno capital but all machine works in realising the have much more agency then

Think they'd rather have the sort of victim mindset I'm just subjected to this machine. It is oppressing me and end. The successful players clearly must be must be evil because they ve been successful. This game that I'm not success flat, but you have managed it gets- people are wearing that mindset and make them realise how the had no kapital machine works and how you can harness it. For your own good in and for the good of others in my creed in value you capture some value, create for the world and that sort of positive sum mindset shift is so potent and really that's. What what we're trying to do by scaling IAQ is sort of unlocking that higher level of agency, like actually yeah you're, far more in control of the future than you think you have agency to change the world go out and do it. You have pr here's permission, each into the you're the agency. The motto keep building is often heard. Frankly, I mean to you-

What does it have to do a diet, coke, our data, the way? Thank you so much for the red ball is working very well, pretty good awesome, or so so building technologies in and building doesn't have to be technologies. Just building in general means having jesse trying to change the world by creating what's a company which is a self sustaining org I assume that you know of a good publishes a function in the broader techno capital machine to us tat the way to achieve change in the world that you'd like to see rather than see pressuring politicians or creating nonprofits that nonprofits one they run out of money. Their function can no longer be a push your you're kind of the the market artificially compared to sort of so

hurting her course in the market or herb dancing with the market to convince at that actually this function is important adds value, and here it is right- and so I think this is the sort of the way between the sort of de growth like he has g approach versus, say: Ilan. Read that growth approaches like working to manage our way out of a climate crisis, and you honest: coming to build a company that is self sustaining, profitable and growing, and its regret innovate. Our way out of this dilemma rate and and were trying to get people to do the latter resin, the former at all, He was an interesting case, so you you are a proponent he said, a baby on by he's. Also, somebody who has for a long time warned about the dangers potential dangers, existential risks of artificial intelligence. How you square the too, that a contradiction to.

It is somewhat because his very much dance regulation in many aspects, but free eyes is definitely a proponent of regulations I think over all you know he saw the dangers of say opening. I in a corner in the market and then getting to have the monopoly over the cultural priors that you can embed in these alarms that then as as airlines now become the source of truth for people, then you can shape the culture of the people and you can control people by controlling the and he saw that just like it was there. for social media. If he shaped the function of information propagation, you can shape people's opinions, his ease he sought to make. It

petted, or so at least, like I think, we're very align their that either? The way to a good future is to maintain sort of adversarial equilibria between the various players I love to talk to him to understand sort of his thinking about how to make it You know how to advance a going forwards. I mean he's also hedging as bats. I would say you know with neuro link right who think if he can, Stop the progress of the you know, he's building the technology to merge, so you know look at the actions are not just the words, but while there's some degree where being concerned, maybe using human psychology. Being concerned about threats all around us is a motivator is an encouraging thing. I operate much better when there's a deadline. Fear of the deadline Can I, for myself create artificial things like that? create and myself is kind of anxiety- is something really horrible will happen for miss the deadline.

There's some degree of of that here, because creating a high that's align with humans has a lot of potential benefits. I thought four way to refrain. That is with you oh, you are you're gonna die, it's just. Seems to be a very powerful psychological formulation of the goal of creating He will align there. I think Anxiety is good. I think like. I said I want that the free market to take create a eyes that are really about and hour That's what he's trying to do with Sai and some all for what what I am against is sort of stopping, let's say the open sea. eco system from tripe, thriving right by say in the exit- give order, claiming that open source Oh I'm sorry, dual use technologies and should be government controlled gin, everybody needs to register

and you peel and their big matrices with the government, and I think that extra friction will dissuade a lot of hackers from contributing hackers that later become the the researchers that may key discoveries that pushes forward rate, including discoveries free, I safety, and so I think I just want to maintain ubiquity of opportunity to contribute to a high and and to own a piece of the future right. You can't just be legislated, behind some wall were only a few players get to play the game so the equal, but his office caricatured to mean to mean certain price grass and innovation at all costs. Doesn't matter how unsafe it doesn't matter if it costs a lot of damage. He's bill bill, cool shit as fast as possible, stay up all night with a diet, coke, whatever it takes

I think I guess, if there's a question in there, but how important to you and what you ve seen. A different formulations of the act is safety. His air safety, I think again I think like. If there was no one working on it, I think I would be a proponent of it. I think again our goal is to sort of bring balance, obviously, a a sense of urgency is a useful tool read to make progress. It hacksaw been energy systems and gives us energy tat to work late into the night. I think also having higher purpose your contributing to write at the other day. It's like what am I contributing to contributing to the growth of this beautiful machine so that we can see to the stars. That's really inspiring! That's also a sort of neuro hack.

so you're saying ass. It is important to you were right now. The landscape of ideas you see is air safety is a topic is used more. often to gain centralize control. So in that since your resisting it as a proxy for centralized gaining surfers control yeah. I just think we we have to be careful, because no safety is just the perfect cover were sort of centralisation of power and covering up eventually corruption. I dont I'm not saying it's corrupted now, but it could be down the line and a really, if you, if you let the arguing run like there's no amount of sir centralism should have control that will be enough to ensure your safety is always more nine, nine, nine of peace safety. We can gain you. No, ninety nine point: nine percent safe, maybe you

On another nine, oh, please give us full access everything you do for surveillance and an frankly, those that are proponents of AI safety have proposed like having a global panopticon right. Where you have. centralized perception of everything going on and to me that just opens the door wide open for a sort of big brother, nineteen, eighty four like scenario: that's not a future. I want to live in. As we know, we have some examples. Thought has shown that did not lead to a good outcome. You mentioned. You founded a company extra public, I recently announced day fourteen point: one million see drowned. I was the goal of the company can about a lot in shooting physics things. So what What are you up to over there? They can talk about. yeah I mean originally, we weren't gonna announced last week, but I think with her

acting in disclosure, we gunnar our hand forced so we were disclosed roughly what we We're doing but really strong. Was born from MIDAS sally. fashion, and that of my colleagues with the the quantum computing math. Rent calling competing was sort of the first path to physics base computing that in Heaven, was trying to commercially scale, and I was working on Basically, I runs on these physics based computers, but ultimately, our greatest enemy was this noise. This pervasive problem of noise. That as I mention you have, to constantly pump out the noise out of the system to maintain this pristine environment, where quantum mechanics can take effect, and that constraint was just too much it's too costly to do that and so we were wondering right as

generally, I sort of eating the world more and more of the world's a computational workloads or- Focused on driving time How could we use physics to end here the ultimate fiscal substrate? For generally I from first principles of physics of information, theory of computation and, ultimately of thermodynamics. and so we are seeking to build, is a physics based computing system and physics based I algorithms, those that are inspired by out of equilibrium, thermodynamics or harness it directly. To do machine learning as a physical process. so what does that mean when she learns? The physical process is that hardware that software is both is trying to do the full in some kind of unique way. Yes, it is

stuck and so were folks that have built differ. Trouble programming into the quantum computing ecosystem with tensor flow quantum, when my co founders of tensor full economies, the city o trevor MC court- and we have some the best corning computer architects- that have designed ibm in asia. We assist systems, they ve left corner computing to help us build what we call actually a thermodynamic computer thermodynamic It will actually, as intensify quantum, what lessons have been learned from twenty four quantum may be, can speak to like what what it takes to create. Essentially what like software a p I to a quantum computer right. I mean that there was a challenge, build invent to build and then to get around,

and the real devices he if you speak to what it is yet so tensor full quantum, was an attempt at warning. I guess we say seated at combining deep learning, her differential, classical programming with conning computing and tat and corn in computing into or have types of, programmes that are differential, inclining computing and in a laundry andrei car puffy calls defensible programming software to put a rain as a grating dissent is a better programmer than you. and the idea was that in the early of quantum computing, you can only run short quantum programmes and so which quantum programmes should you run while just like great into find those programmes instead and two we built sort of the first infrastructure to not only run differential quantum programmes, but

buying them. As part of a broader, deep learning, grass incorporating deep neural networks, you have the ones you know in love with what are called quantum neural networks, see and do ultimately it was a cross disciplinary effort. We had to invent all sorts of ways to differentiate to back propagate through the grass the hybrid graph but ultimately it taught me that you were there A programme matter into programme physics is by differentiating through control parameters. If you have parameters that affects the physics of the system, you can and you can evaluate some last function. You can optimize the stem to accomplish a task, whatever their task may be, and that's a very sort of universal matter framework for how to program physics based computers

to try to parent rise. Everything make those points where's differential and optimize. Yes, So is there some some more practical engineering, lessons from tat awful quantum? organizational too late, the humans involved and how to get to a product tata, quicker documentation, I all these little subtle things he may people may not think about. I think, like working across display A boundary is always a challenge and you have to be extremely pay teaching one another ray. I learned a lot of software engineering through the process mike colleagues learned a lot of quantum physics, and some learned machine learning through the process of building this system, and I think, if you get some smart people that are passionate and trust each other

and therein and have a small him, and you teach each other here, especially is suddenly you're kind of forming a sort of model soup of expertise and something special comes out of that right is combining genes, but for your knowledge bases andor, sometimes special products come out of them. and so I I think like, even though it's very high friction initially to work in an interdisciplinary team. I think the product at the end of days is worth it and so learned a lot trying to bridge the gap there and I mean it's still a challenge to this day. Now we hire folks that are have an ai background, folks, folks that have a pure physics background and somehow we we have to make them talk to one another rent is magic, deserves some size and to the hiring process to building a team that are concerned

magic to her yeah. It's it's really hard to pinpoint that that gents require right there Her nose, be french, has very nice, and I'm actually french canadian so are you are legitimately frenchy. I am a letter you're just doing that for the for the for the cred. No, no, I'm truly french canadian from from montreal and but yeah Essentially, we look for people with very high fluid intelligence that aren't overspent because they're gonna have to get out of their comfort zone. They're gonna have to incorporate concepts that you ve never seen before and very quickly get comfortable with them right or learn to work in a team and so that sort of what we look for when higher. We can't higher young people that are just like you know, optimizing this subsystem for the past three or four years. We need like really general sort of broader

intelligence and specialty and people that are there. open minded really is your pioneering a new approach from scratch there there is no textbook there's. No reference is just us and people that are hungry to learn. So we have to teach us there? We have to learn the literature with to share knowledge bases collaborate in order, to push the boundary of knowledge further together, right and so people that are used to just getting prescribed what to do- and you know at this stage when you're at the pioneering state, that's not necessarily who you want to three measures shop, if you try to build the physical substrate for generative, a high was the difference in that and the asia I itself said, is it possible The in the halls of your company a jail be created.

or will ages be using this as the substrate. I think our goals to both run human, like ay, I ran to promote effect safer use of the term asia, I always triggering freedom. We think that the future is actually physics based the eye combined with anthropomorphic so you can imagine. I have a sort of world modeling engine through physics based the eye physics pasty eyes is better representing the world that all scales, because it can be quantum mechanical thermodynamic, deterministic hybrid, contains the well just like our world. A different scales has different regimes of physics to inspire yourself from that the ways you learn representations of nature he can have much more. Accurate representations in nature seemed to have fewer accurate world models at all scales,

right is he at the world modeling engine, and then you have the sort of anthropomorphic ai that is human like. So you can have the science, the the the playground to test your your ideas and he can have a synthetic scientist and to us. That joint system of physics based the eye and an anthropomorphically. I is the closest thing to fully general. Artificial intelligence system, so you you can get closer to truth by grounding of the, The aid to physics right, but you cannot still have a anthropomorphic interface to us humans. They like to talk to other humans, human, like systems, though, on that topic woody. I suppose that is one the big limitations of current large language models to you is that they are not the good bullshit. Hers

they're not really grounded truth necessarily is that it would be fair to say yeah now you and try to. Trap laid the stock market with an alarm trained on from the internet right is negative. Be a very accurate modeled snugly model its prior written certainties about the world very accurately. You need. You need a different type of the to to compliment sorted this. This text, extrapolation, you mentioned singularity earlier work were how far away we from a singularity I don't know if I believe in a finite time singularity as the single point in time. I think it's gotta be ass, a tonic and and sort of a dog and all sort of asking tote. Like you know it, have the like. We have the limits of physics restricting our Ability to grow so obviously can fully diverge on a fine time.

I think my prayers are that you, I think, a lot of a lot of people on the other side. The I'll think that once we human level iii, I there's gonna, be an infection point in a sudden like fun like suddenly the eyes could grog. How do you know many? late matter at banana scale and assembled robots and having worked for nearly a decade in applying ai, to engineer matter. It's much harder than they think. And in reality you need a lot of samples from either assimilation of nature. That's very accurate, costly or nature itself in that keeps you billy to control the world around us in check. There the sort of minimum cost cut occasionally in germany, amicably turquoise, information about the world in order to be able to predict and control it, and that keeps things and check is fine on the other side of the isle. So in the pool I posted about p do

yesterday, was the probability of doom theirs was to be a nice like division between people. Think it's very late. and very unlikely. I wonder if it's in the future they'll, be the actual republicans. the Democrats, division, blue verses red is the I do mergers, the actors yak yeah. So this movement, you know, is not right, or left wing. Fundamentally, it's more like up versus down in terms which nearly up for his, but it seems to be like there is a sort of case of men of the existing political parties, where those that are for more centralisation of power, control and more regulations are a lying with sort of aligning them with a dumas and because that sort of Fear and people as they re waiting for them if more control

The government want more power, but fundamentally we're not left vs right. I think there's Did we ve done pause of people's alignment with any acca thinks pre balanced, says it's it? It's a new fund. Mental issue of our time is not just centralisation. Rusty centralisation, it's kind of dewey go it's like tech, progressive ism versus techno, conservativism, right. So. Yeah is as a move is offer formulated, in contrast to a effective, altruism what do you think are the pros and cons of effective, altruism, what's interesting insightful to you about them and what is negative right, I think I think, like people trying to do good from first principles is is is good. We should actually says in sorry to interrupt. We should probably say that

You can correct me if I'm wrong but effective our tourism is the kind of movement is trying to do. Good optimally were good, This probably measured something like the amount of suffering in the world. You wanna minimize it. And there's ways that that can go wrong. Has any optimization can- and this is interesting to explore- oh, like how things can go wrong. We're we're both trying to do good to some extent and were were both trying were more arguing for which lost function. We should use radius. Their last function is sort of he dines rate units of hedonism like how? How like how good do you feel and for how much time, right and so suffering would be negative hidden better turn him minimize that, but to us that seems like that last month,

has sort of spurious minimise right. You can start missing shrimp pain rate, which seems not that productive to me, or you can end up with wire heading where you just either install a neural link or you tik tok forever, and you feel good on short term timescale, because your nor chemistry, but I'm long term timescale, causes decay and death rain because you're not being productive, whereas sort of. Yeah measuring progress of civilization in terms of a subjective lost function like he does, hedonism, but rather an objective measure. Quantity that cannot be game, that is, physical energy, read its very object. and at an end and there's not many ways to get it right. If you, if you did it in terms of like g peer currency, that's pin

a certain value, that's moving right, and so that's not a good way to measure our progress and so on. But the thing is we're both trying to make progress and ensure humanity flourishes and gets to grow. We just have different lost functions in different ways of going about it, it is their degree. Maybe can educate me correctly I get a little bit sceptical when there equation about trying to reduce all of the human civilization human experience, so an equation. Is there a degree that we should be skeptical of the tyranny of any equation of all? function or wish to optimize the cabin a kind of intellectual humility, bow optimizing over loss functions, Yes, sir, so this particular lost function is not its not stiff. It's kind of an average of averages red. It's like

distributions of states in the future are going to follow a certain distribution. So it's not deterministic. It's not like we're not unlike stiff rail freight is just a statistical. Statement about the future, but at the other day you know you can believe in gravity or not. You know, but it's not yesterday an option to obey. It read some and people try to test that NATO's, not so ass a similarly. He I think I think thermodynamics their, whether we like it or not, and we're just trying to point out what is an and tried to, Orient ourselves and anne and charter path given, given this fundamental truth, but there is still some months into their still lack of information humus than to fill the gap with the latter. Information with near is ass, a how they interpret it even fit

It is up to interpretation when there is uncertainty involved and the human send to use that to further their own means nasa is always Whenever there is an equation. Just seems like until we have really perfect understanding of the universal human. so do what humans do and they two. Use the narrative of doing good to fool the populace into doing bad. I just. I guess that this is something that should be sceptical about in all movements threat. So we invite scepticism. We d an understanding of what my degree they went wrong. What do you think may have gone wrong with effective, altruism,

that might also go wrong with effective acceleration is yeah mean, I think you know I think it provided initially a sense of community. For you know, nears and intellectuals and rationalists in the early days and seems to me he was very healthy, but then you know they formed all sorts of organ nations and started routing camp at all. having actual power right? They have real power, the influenced government insolence most org. Now there are literally controlling the board of voting. I read and. Look offered anthropic. I think they have some control over that too, and so I think you know, there's some uh yeah is more like capitalism is that every agent organism and better organisms can act itself in its own interests and we should maintain sort of adversary really calabrian or

adversarial competition to keep each other in check at all times at all scales. I think that yeah Ultimately, it is the perfect cover to acquire tons of power. capital and unfortunately, sometimes that and that that corrupts people over time. What does a perfectly productive day since building is important? What does a perfectly productive day in the life of guillaume verdon? Look like come how much caffeine you consume like what was the perfect day. Okay, I I have a particular regimen and I would say my my favorite days are twelve p m to four p m and I would have meetings in the early afternoon. Usually, external meetings some internal meetings, because I'm I'm seo after interface with the outside world their its customers or investors,

renewing potential candidates and usually I'll, have a key turns out. Exhaustion. Ascii turns I'm sorry, you wanna kiddo in a day, or so I've done kido before for football and what not, but I like to have a meal after, sort of part of my day. It is done, and so I can just have extreme focus. Will you do social interactions. a day right without food front load them. Yet like right now, I'm on key tones and read the fear and it. just gives you a clarity of thought that is really next network. Is then, when you eat janusz allocating some, your energy that could be going too, neural energy too, to your digestion. After I mean I take a break hour or so and then usually it's like

ideally one meal a day like steak and eggs and vegetables, animal based, primarily the fruit and me, and then and then I do a second wind. Usually that's deep work rate goes up you know I am seo, but I'm still technical and contributing to most patents in their own state late into the night and work with engineers on very technical problems does like the the night p m to four p m. Whatever, though, that range of time yeah yeah, that's the perfect time, The the emails that the things that are on fire stop trickling in you can you can focus you have your second wind. and you know, I think, damask This has a similar work day to some extent, and so I think that that's definitely inspired my work day and but yeah that I started this work day when I was at google and had to manage. The product during the day and have meetings and then and then to technical work at night,

exercise sleep? Those kinds of things said football newspaper, yeah, to play american football, I've done all sorts of sports growing up, and then I wasn't into powerlifting for a while. So another studying, mathematics and grad school, I would just you know, do math and lift take caffeine, and that was my day is very pure, the poorest of monk modes. But it's really interesting. Seeing how in powerless thing, you're trying to cause neural adaptation by having. Certain driving signals, you're trying to engineer nor plasticity through all sorts of supplements, Then you know you have all sorts of vienna. Brain derive, no traffic factors that get secreted when you when you left. So it's funny to me how, as too engineer near adaptation in my nervous system, more broadly, not just my brain while learning, mathematics,

I think you can learn much faster if you really care, if you convince yourself take care a lot about what you're learning and have some sort of assistance. Let's say caffeine nor some calling ergic supplement increase near plasticity. I should chat with your who prevented some point he's the expert but yeah at least to me, it's like you know, you can try to input more tokens into your brain. If you will- and you can try to increase their learning rates so that you can learn much faster on a short timescale- soap, I've learned. Lot of things. I followed, my curiosity, your naturally your passion about what you're doing you gotta learn faster you to become smarter, faster and if you follow your curiosity, you're always gotta be interested, and so I advise people to follow their curiosity and don't respect the boundaries of certain fields or what you Been allocated in terms of lane of what you're working on

go out and explore follow your nose and try to acquire and compressed as much information as he can into your brain. Anything find interesting and carry him Not a thing like you said, which is interesting and does it was from me really well, is a tricky yourself. Do you care about a thing? Yes, and these start you really care about it, so it's funny the motivation. is a really good catalyst for learning right and so at least part potter, part of my character as batteries us is kind of like there, hey man you're just a height, but I'm like hyping myself up, but then I just tweet about it and it's just I'm trying to get really hyped up and, unlike an altered state of consciousness when like altered, focused in the flow wired turn invent, something has never existed. I need to get telling unreal levels of like excitement your brain has these levels of

cognition that you can unlock with like higher levels, the train, a and and what not- and I mean I've learned that in parallel thing that actually You can engineer a mental switch to like increase your strength right like if you can engineer a switch, maybe have a prompt like a certain song or some music, where Suddenly you're like fully prime then you're at max maximum strength thread and I've engineer that that switch through years of the thing if you're gonna get under five hundred pounds and it could crush you if you don't have that switch to be wired in you might die so that that will wake you right up and that sort of skill I've carried over like research. One is when is go time when the stakes are high. Somehow I just reach another level of europa women's above Jesus, you're, sort of environment representation of year, intellectual hawk, its productivity hawk,

that they are turned on. What would have you learn about mandate, the nature, of identity from having these two identities and essentially for people to be able to put almost two hats? explicitly I figure was interesting in the early days, I think in there early days. I thought it was truly compartmentalized like oh yeah. This is a character Yom Beth is just the character like I like take my thoughts and then extrapolate them to a bit more extreme but he over time is kind of, like both identities were starting. Emerge mentally and people are like. No, you are, I met you, you are Beth, you are not just sky one, and I was like wait. Am I, and now it's like fully marriage but who is already before the docks was already starting mentally that you know that I am this character to me. Would you recommend people sort have an out? Absolutely

like young people, would you recommend them to explore different identities by having out all the count? It's it's fun. It's like like riding in San taking a position right. It's like you do this in the bait. It's like you can have experimental thoughts and and by having by the stakes being so low because you're an add on account without it twenty followers or something you can experiment with your thoughts, and in a low stakes environment. I feel like we ve lost that in the era of everything being under your main name, everything being attributable to you. People just are afraid to speak, explore ideas that are fully formed rate and- and I feel like we ve- lost something there. So I hope you know platforms like acts and others like really help support people trying to stay pseudonymous or anonymous, because it's really important for for people to share thoughts that aren't fully formed

and converge on, two may be hidden truths that were hard to converge upon. If there was just through open com, imitation with real name's yeah, really believe in like radical but rigorous empathy, really concerning what it's like to be a person of us viewpoint and like taken that as a thought, experiment farther and farther and farther And one way of doing as an article has, if that's the fun interesting way to really explore what it's like to be a person that believes a set of beliefs and are taking that across a span of several days weeks months. Of course, there's was the danger of becoming that as the nature gaze long into the abyss bisque is into you. You have to be careful, breaking beth or breaking

Yeah you wake over the shaved had one day, just like her for my whatever had become so you mention of quite a bit advice already, but what advice would you give to young people of how to. This interesting world wherein hydrogen A career in, however, to life, they can be proud of victim. Neither the reason I went to theoretical physics was that I had to learn the base of this that was gonna stick around no matter how the technology changes rain and to me that was the found. sean upon which then I later built engineering skill and other skills to me the laws of physics. You know it may seem like the landscape. Right now is changing so fast disorienting, but certain things like funding to mathematics in physics, aren't gonna change. If you have that knowledge and

knowledge about complex systems and adapt to systems. I think that's gonna carry you very far and so not everybody has to study mathematics, but I think it's really uh huh, each cognitive unlocked her to learn, math and in some way dixon engineering get as close to the base of the stack as possible. Yeah that's rake has caused the base of the dac doesn't change everything else. You know your knowledge might become not as relevant in a few years. Of course, there's a sort of transfer learning you can do, but then you have to always transfer learn constantly. I guess the closer you are base of the stack the easier, the the the the the easier the transfer learning the shorter, the jump right, frank and you'd be surprised, like once, you've learned concepts in many physical scenarios, how they can carry over to understanding other systems that are necessarily physics and I guess lick their?

och writings. You know that the principles and tenant posts there was based on physics those kind of my experimentation with applying some of the things from out of equilibrium, thirty annexed to understanding the world around us and it led to to act in this. This movement. If you look at your word, cog in the machine in the capitals machine, one human and if you look at yourself, using mortality is a feature, a bug I'd. Would you want to immortal. Now I think fundamentally in? The thermodynamic dissipated asian there's the word dissipation dissipation is important. Death is important right. We have a saying in physics, fish progress is one funeral at a time, and I think the same.

true for capitalism, companies, empires people, everything everything was die at some point. I think that wish pry extend. Our lifespan, because we need a longer period of of training, the world is more more complex rate. We have more more data to really be able to pray and understand the world, and if we have a at window of higher note neuroplasticity than then we have sort of a hard cap and how much we can understand about our world. So you know I I think I am for death because again, I think it's port, and you know if you, if you have like a king, that would never die and I would be problem right like it. Wouldn't the system will be constantly adapting and you need novelty in youth. You need disruption to make sure the system's always adapt being an invaluable. Otherwise, if things

are immortal. You know if you have let's say, corporations that There forever and have the monopoly they get calcified. Did they become it is optimal not as high fitness in a changing time. Varying landscape rate and so death gives space through use the novelty to today its place, and I think it's an important part of every system in nature. So here I am for him for death, but I do think that longer life span longer time for nerve plasticity, bigger brains, which should be something we should strive for, one that Jeff bases and birth Jesus agree that all companies die for Jeff the the goals

I tried to he called a day. One thinking try to constantly for as long as possible, reinvent sort of extend the life of the company, but eventually he too will die. Is it so damn difficult to keep reinventing and are you afraid of your own death, and I think I have ideas and things I'd like to achieve in this world before I have girl, but I don't think I'm silly afraid of death. You not attached to this particular body and mind you don t know why I think I'm sure there's Be better versions of of myself in the future or forks forks, red genetic for sir or other rate I truly. I truly believe that I, I think, there's. Sort evolutionary like algorithm

happening it at every bit or not, and the world has sort of adapting through this. Process that we describe in any action- and I think maintaining this adaptation. Malleability is how we have constant ottomans. Nation of the whole machine, and so I dont think I'm particularly. You know, the man that needs to stick around forever. I think there's gonna be greater optimum in many ways. waiving the meaning of it all was the? Why of the machine, the acquisition The why well, the wise, through nato, makes its this was why we're here to what has led to the formation of life of civilization, of evolution, of technologies and growth of civilization, but Why do we have thermodynamics? Why do we have our particular universe? Why do we have these particular hyper parameters, the constance of nature, while then

get into the and principle rate and the landscape of potential universes right where in the universe that allows for life, and then why, Is there potentially many universes- I don't know- I don't have that part. But could we potentially engineer noon. Sesar create pocket universes and set the hyper parameters. there is some mutual information between our existence in that universe and we'd be somewhat its parents. I think that's really cannot be very poetic. Its purely conjecture, sure. But again, this is why figuring out on gravity wooden, alastor understand if we can do in and above there. Why is it all seemed so beautiful and exciting? the quest to freeing up gravity so saying why wiser,

Why are we draw that? Why we porter was that, just as that, basel solving creative force that underpins all of it. It seems like, I think we seek just like an alarm seeks to minimize cross, entropy between its colonel model in the world. We seek to minimize yeah the statistical divergence between, predictions the world and in the world Itself- and you know having regimes of energy scales or physical scales in which we have no visibility. No ability to predict her perceive, you know, that's kind of an insult. To us and we want to. We want to be able to understand the world better in order to best steer, steer it or steer us through it and in general, as the capability that has evolved, because the better you can predict well the better you can capture utility or free energy towards your on sustenance and growth,

and I think cornered grubby began his kind of the final boss. In terms of knowledge acquisition and because once we ve mastered Then we can do a lot potentially, but between here and there I think, there's a lot to learn in the massive scale, there's a lot of formation to acquire about our world and a lot of engineering, perception, prediction and control to be done to climb up the cardiff scale, untasted ass. The great challenge of our I'm not sure where to go, what the meme pay the way Young Beth thanks we're talking today. Thank you for the work you are doing. Thank you for the humor and the wisdom you put it into the world. This is often take, So much for having me likes his pleasure. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Qian verdun the support this podcast, please police, Jakarta sponsors in the disk.

Action and now let me leave you with some words from albert einstein. If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it. Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time. Hmm.