The following is a conversation with Jared kirshner, former senior advisor to the president during the Donald trump administration and author of breaking history, a white house mamore he's one of the most influential and effective presidential advisers in modern history. Helping conduct negotiations with some of the most powerful leaders in the world and deliver results on trade, criminal justice reform, an historic progress towards peace in the middle east on thursday October fifth recorded conversation on topics a warrant, he's history in power in the middle east and beyond. This was about a day and a half before the hamas attack on Israel, and then we felt we must sit down.

Again on Monday october, ninth and added discussion on the current situation. We opened the podcast with a second newly recorded part. My heart goes out to everyone who has an is suffering in this war. I pray for years thanks for the long term, peace and flourishing of the israeli and palestinian people. I love you all. I know a quick view. Circumvention of sponsor check them out in a description is the best way to support this park asked who got inside tracker for biological data better help for mental health. sleep for naps and age. You one for health she's. Wasn't my friends. And now onto the full address, as always know as in the middle? I try to make this interesting, but if you must keep them, we still check or our sponsors angel their stuff, maybe you will to the show, is bought you buy

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I love you. I love you can get you one thing at drink age you wanta come slash lacks this. Is the last treatment park ass? I now dear friends, who chaired cushion. We did a lot of this conversation before the Hamas attack on Israel and we decided to sit down again and finish this action to address the current situation, which is still developing. If I may allow me summarize the situation as it stands today, it's morning, Monday october, ninth on Saturday october, seventh, at six thirty, I am Israel time. Hamas fired thousands of rockets into southern israel. The rocket attacks served as cover for a month prompt infiltration of Israel territory by over one thousand Hamas milton's. This is surely, after at seven forty a m the

smelters went door to door in border towels, killing civilians and taking captors, including women and children. In response to this israeli air force began, carrying out strikes Gaza also fighting on the ground in Israel, clear from our milton's from Israel territory, and preparing to mobilise israeli troops for potential gown attack on Hamas in Gaza. Now, of course, this is what appears to be right now in this along with other things, might change, because the situation is still developing. The idea Resorting civilian residents of Gaza to evacuate their homes for their safety. Benjamin Netanyahu, declared war in several statements and warned israelis to to braced themselves for long and difficult war. Just today is rarely ministers ordered a quote: complete siege of Gaza

interrupting supplies of electricity, food, water and fuel from Israel to Gaza. As of now october knife, the death toll is over twelve hundred people and over a hundred thirty hostages taken to gaza by Hamas, So as I said, the events are rapidly unfolding, so these numbers will sadly increase, but hopefully our words here can, at least in part, speak to thee the timeless underlying currents of the three and, as you write about the power dynamics of the region, so for people who don't know Gaza's aid, twenty five miles long six miles why strip of territory along the mediterranean sea borders is, on the east and north and egypt on the southwest, its densely populated by two point: three million people and there's been a blockade of Gaza,

Israel, Egypt, since two thousand seven, when Hamas took power to summarize that Hamas is a palestinian melting group which rules the Gaza strip. It originated in nineteen, eighty eight and it came to power in gaza, two thousand six as part of its charter at sworn to the destruction of Israel and it is designated by the united states, pain, union, uk and, of course, Israel as a terrorist group. So, given that context, your feelings, ass, a human being and What is your analysis as the forum our senior advisor to the president under the trump administration of the current situation in Israel in Gaza side. I think did an excellent job of summarizing a lot of the context, but watching what, folded over the last forty eight hours has been truly heartbreaking to see

were still in the early stages of what's developing, but seeing the images on acts of militants terrorists going door to door with machine guns, gunning down innocent civilians, seeing behead israeli soldiers seeing young the twin. Roles at a rave dance party to celebrate peace with the militants flying in, and then you shouldn't machine guns, tat to kill people indiscriminately, seeing young children captive and unhelpful you're seeing eighty year old grandmothers, a holocaust survivor also being taken captive. These are just images and actions that we have not seen in this world since nine eleven. This is it attack on the scale of which we have not seen, and it's been incredibly hard, fer a lot of people to comprehend.

Heart goes out, obviously, to all of the families of the victims to families of those who are held captive now and to all of Israel, because one of the beautiful things about the state of Israel is that when we israeli, is hurting the entire nation comes together. It's a shame that it's taking an action like this to unify the nation, but I have seen incredibly beautiful signs over the last forty eight hours of a country coming together. The jewish people have been under oppression before, The jewish people know what it's like and seen. People rally together to fight for their homeland to return to try to reestablish safety. Is is. It is a very beautiful thing to watch. I wish it wasn't something we had to watch, but it is with that being said, though, the backdrop I can speak in it.

And over the last couple days, I've one friend I spoke with them last night. He was saying that you know a good friend a message to him say: I'm going in were indecent operations to try to free some, the hostages held them. One of the key puts is messaged him the next morning he was one of the first through the door to try to free these hostages and he was killed by Hamas, militant and sadly, we're going to be hearing many many more stories of brave israeli soldiers trying to get these terrorists out of Israel trying to free innocent civilians, Oh, unfortunately, are risking their lives to do it and damn you know, they're all heroes, but some will have a less good faith than others. Sadly, so it's a very, very heartbreaking moment and I do think that is very important at this moment in time for the entire world to stand before Israel. I think that Hamas has shown

the entire world, who they really are. I think what their aim is, what they're willing to do and- and you know all of the ah strong security that Israel's put in place over the last years, which in some instances was criticized and is now being validated that and that there is a real threat that they were looking to deter. So the short answer is my heart is broken, praying for peace, praying for strength, praying for praying for israel to do what it needs to do to avoid being in this situation again, which is either eliminating or severely degrading Hamas as capabilities there, there cannot be p, sit is run in the Middle east, while there is a terror group. That is funded by ran that is allowed to flourish and is allowed plan operations that are going to aim to kill. Innocent civilians so as somebody who well was formerly in this position. Who was it

italy involve with israel with the strategies, to minimize attacks from Hamas and to try to turn the ring around. I think we did do a very substantial job under president trump admit We just went from one of the most chaotic regions in the world. You had isis in two thousand and sixteen isis had a caliphate. The size ohio their beheading journalists? They were, they were, they were killing christians, they control. In people they were planning attacks all over the world from their their caliphate. They were using the internet to radicalized people. We had the san bernardino shooting in amerika we had the pulse nightclub shooting, in in orlando, and there was real. Right, and then you had a ran, which was given. a hundred and fifty billion dollars and clyde path to nuclear weapon.

And they were using their newfound riches. The fund hamas, hezbollah, the who these different rebels all over there, the region there were looking to destabilize Their syria was in civil war, were five hundred thousand people were killed? Yemen was the stable aye. Sir, Libya was destabilized and it was just a mess and America's allies had felt betrayed president from came into power. We rebuild their trust in the relationships with all of our traditional allies. We were able to eliminate isis, the caliph territorial caliphate and then were able to predict, strengthen region really go after iran's wallet tat. We were able to stop through through crushing sanctions, a lot of their financial resources which they were using to fund all these terror groups and so left the middle east with six peace deals and in a fairly peaceful world,

so seeing what's happening, think it was completely avoidable. I think it's horrible to see that it's occurring and I pray that those in power will make the right decisions to ah to to to restore safety, but also to potentially crate the paradigm for peace in the future? So have a lot of questions to ask you about the journey towards this historic progress towards peace with Abraham, of course, but first on the situation to step back and some of the history is are things about the history of Hamas and Gaza, that is important to understand what is happening now. Just your comments, your thoughts, your understanding of Hamas. I think you did an excellent job likes of of really giving the summary just a couple of things. Maybe I'll add to it is that Hamas was originally founded the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, which is a group that caused a lot of issues in the region they gave attacked through many times in the past? There is a lot.

Discussion about how Israel is knocking wind power. Well, in Gaza, two thousand and five they withdrew from all the land, and then they say Israel is an apartheid state. While Israel then gave governance of the region to the palestinians, and then what's happened is: is the palace in people's lives have now gone down. Not up since then. We'll say that under Hamas is leadership in in gaza, the people have suffered the most or the palestinian people, and I see I've. I've watched cries throughout my time in government from people saying we want to see the palestinian people live a better life. I agree with those people. I think that the palestinian people in Gaza are essentially hostages in in Gaza. You have basically two point two million people. They are being held hostage by thirty thousand hamas, a terrorists and that's

the problem and I would just encourage people to to push their attention and energy in this moment in their anger towards Hamas. Those are the people who are killing since civilians who are murdering indiscriminately and those are the people who have held back the palestinians from having a better life, and just finally, but I would say, is you know what we saw with Hamas? Was that if you go back to two thousand seven, they basically had just one plan that they did over and over and now we are very therefore, to try to monitor very closely and stop uranium money and resources from coming in and again, we took a little bit of chris The sun from the international community from keeping the border tight, but unfortunate every time you'd allow construction materials to go into Gaza. They'd use them to build tunnels, not homes. You would have equipment that would come in to build pipes, they turn it into bomb, so it was very, very hard to figure out. How do you get the resources into

gaza to help people have a better life while at the same time the leadership in Gaza was taking off those resources and turning it into military equipment to attack Israel, what role does around playing this war? In this connection, the hamas it did. You speak to the connection between Hamas and around at some point understand its budget as this most recent attack on four, sure, so the correlation in their reports that around behind the attack Hamas, as has thanked, ran for their support. damn- and it's been very well known- that IRAN's supports the destruction of state of Israel and I won't say IRAN as a country I'll talk about iran in the leadership, there's actually beautiful thing. I saw on the internet where one of the soccer game

in IRAN. They were trying to. You know, rally support for the hamas terror attacks and a lot of people in the crowds were chanting. You know, f you to the regime, because I think the iranian people, the persian people generally, are peace, loving people who don't want to see this focus on destruction and annihilation, but You saw this in two thousand and fifteen two thousand and sixteen. When the iranian government had resources, the region was less safe and since you know now, he's been more resources allowed to go to the iranian regime by lack of enforcement of sanctions and, as a result I ran his funds. hezbollah Hamas. They were funding the hutu now, there's a little bit of it. The time between sounding ran, which has led to that going down which only further proves that ran, was behind the who these, which is what the saudis had been saying for, years and ran was denying so there's

a strong relationship between the two, and we always knew that. The way that ran fights wars or fights conflict has never directly is usually through its proxies. In this case, a hamas has been a proxy fer, a ran who wanted to We see the destruction of Israel, but also does not want to see the israelis and the saudis come together for peace agreement, the name this operation of the Hamas operation is Alex a flood refer to the locks, a mosque. How much of this attack is about the allowed. Some asked the inaccurate reality not again if it is, but the alex mosque is something that all of the Shia jihadis have used for years in order to justify their actions that our aggressive towards Israel. So this is something up, maybe and take a step back

through when I was working initially in my first year on the peace plan, I was doing a lot of listening and, quite frankly, a lot of what people are saying to me didn't make sense and the real why is trying to figure out their time? Bout sovereignty overlooks a mosque. The awesome mosque is a mosque. That's than a holy of holies that Hamas refer in Israel, where the the jewish pay to make russia, the holy temple, was built in a very religious place about after the temple was destroyed than there is a big mosque built there, and it's one of the more. holy places in Islam, now so so the big I think everyone was saying, is what you do with this land, where you have a mosque built over a very big jewish site, and I was hearing all the experts- and you know I always say, experts with quotes because

it's only in washington. Can you work on something for a decade and continue to fail, and then you basically leave and are considered an expert, and but that's one of the problems with washington, which maybe we could talk about later, but the notion here was I went and I said, let me try to understand what the issue with the israeli palestinian conflict. With the people right, I always felt the politicians were low. Disconnected psych commissioned our focus groups one in a modern one in cairo, one, dubai and one in ramallah- and I ask you- know: people muslims: what is these arab? What is the israeli palestinian conflict about? and time and time again that most popular thing that they said was that Israel, was not allowing access to the mosque for muslims to pray and

Interesting was is that Israel's policy is to allow anyone who wants to come and pray peacefully at the sites to come and pray. Sometimes they have security issues when there's provocations by and large, since nineteen sixty seven when Israel was able to take back jerusalem in a defensive or just before, clear, they were attacked in the south and they were attacked from from the east and they basically ripple happy back the jordanians in the egyptians and and then reconquer the adults, Jerusalem and during that time, immediately after israel then passed the protection of holy places, law, which was they basically took resources, didn I have, and they said we're going to restore the christian sites, the muslim sites, the the jewish sites and they've worked to allow everyone access to the mosque. So today any muslim who wants to come And come and prayed the mosque. The mosque is Israel's acknowledged that king Abdullah, the king of Jordan, is, is the custodian of the mosque and as long as p

want to come to the country and pray peacefully through able to do that. But if you look at a lot of the propaganda that's been used by, isis or iran too, to recruit terrorists or did justified their incursions. They often say they're doing in the name of liberating the alex mosque, but from operational and pragmatic perspective today. That any muslim. Who wants to go to the mosque? You can book a flight to Israel now through dubai, because there's flights between Israel, dubai and if, as long as your country has relations with Israel and they'll accept your passport in there. You can come and pray and that's what Israel wants. Israel wants jerusalem to be a place where all religions can come and celebrate together, but you've a lot of actors that look to find ways to use these religious tensions in order to so division and justify violent behaviour. I wonder how it is possible to lessen the effectiveness of that propaganda message

that's a lot of the war. A lot of the attacks about access to the Al Aqsa mosque. Is there something you can speak to why that message hasn't disseminated across them? The air, world, so Israel's good in a lot of things that are not very good traditionally with public relations. You know, after the able the court's you know we made the first abraham accords deal in august, twenty money, and then we made five other deals: wheat first id united arab emirates than we did a deal with bahrain than we did deal with. Kosovo. We need to deal with them with sudan that we did deal with morocco, and then we got the job you see deal done as well. The deal that the tension between qatar, saudi you, I e egypt in bahrain. That was allowing us to create a pathway, did then pursue the israeli saudi normalization. So we, so much momentum, then that the goal was just keep getting more countries to know

belies relations with Israel. Once you create the connection between people and create the ability for people do business together the ability for flights to fly between. Then you it's. You start naturally having people coming and everyone has a smartphone today, so they can then posts and combat d. The misinformation that's been out there, but this misinformation is not something: that's You know one of the characters who played a very big role in spreading the anti semitism and the violence in israel in the nineteen twenties was a guy named I mean our society, who is known as the grand mufti of Jerusalem. He was a very close with hitler, and misleading, and he was working with them to try to get some coffee the middle east, once the jewish people were annihilated and what he did for a very long time was he the same stuck on the it was before yet smartphones in youtube, or he would say the mosque is your intact. These imperialist scientists are coming in to try to destroy the moss and he would use at the rays.

from indonesia from Pakistan from all over the world and then use that that threat to justify recruiting groups of young, vulnerable muslim men and then getting them in the name of religious rights, to go and kill people which is not, which really is more of a perversion, religion. Then I think the true essence Islam is, I think, Islam at its core is a peaceful religion and I think that's where a lot of the great leaders in islam wanna take it. But the people who use islam or the mosque. Her as a justification for violence that those are people who, I think are are really and they are disrespecting the the islam religion. As you said, you helped make major strides towards peace in the Middle east, with the abraham accords. Can you describe what it took to accomplish this, and maybe this will help us understand what broke down and led to the tragic?

this week now. So you know, I always believed in foreign policy, I learnt very quickly that the difference between a political deal and a business deal is that in a business deal you have a problem set. You come to a conclusion, and then, if you buy, or sell something you either have or cash or you have a company should be more to do less. To do political problem said is very different where you know the conclusion of a proper set is essentially the beginning of a new paradigm. So when I would think about How do you? How do you move he says around the board, you couldn't say: let me just solved the problem. You have to think about what happens the day after the signing, and how do you wait a paradigm that has positivity to it. So the biggest piece of what president trumpeted during his four years in office was He really strengthen the relationship with Israel number one, and he did things like. I recognise in Jerusalem is

capital of Israel. He moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He recognized the golan heights, he got out of the iran deal, we didn't I'm a conference in bahrain where we brought israelis to me with saudi and immorality and qatar, businessmen and everyone came. Gather in and each one of these instances were unthinkable previously, and everyone said that if you did it, the world was gonna end. The time president trump did one the next morning the sun rose the next evening the sunset and things moved on and so by doing that, what president trump did was he he slaughtered a lot of the sacred cows of these, these false barriers that people had erected and showed people that the vast majority of the people in the middle east, whether their jewish muslim, christian, whatever religion, they are they just one

live better lives, and so what we basically did was create a paradigm where the voices for peace, the voices for together now finally had a forum in it where they re able to do it, and we did that in the backdrop that we were able to be successful. Was we severely limited the resources of ran and they were focused more internally and they could, in clause the trouble that they were causing everywhere else, since we ve got? obviously the dynamics of changed, but that the way you get to peace obviously number ones through strengthened number two by finding a way for people to be better off tomorrow than they are today, and what I found was that most of them ices looking for violence or trouble or people who are just focused on what happened two years twenty years ago. Seventy years ago, a thousand years ago, people who are trying to sell solve those problems in that context,

and were were looking more to use those pass grievances as a justification for their power and for the bad behaviour that they were like. to perpetuate so managing, as we have talked about extensive managing the power dynamics of the region and providing a plan. This is something you did with the economic plan. Titled peace, prosperity, a vision to the lives of the palestinian and israeli people gave foresaw describe, what's in the plan, sure so this was something I took on. I was working on the political framework between the israelis and the palestinians and try and understand where the issues in the issues were were not very many basely was you had a land dispute near has yet to figure out where you put borders. Ultimately, you had a security at up a dime, which I was much more favourable to Israel's perspective on and obviously the events, past forty eight hours of fully justified that that that that bias,

and then in addition that you to deal with the religious sites, but I felt operational that wasn't actually as complicated as people made it because you wanted touches, leave it open for everybody, then I went and I felt that the palestinian leadership was fairly disincentive eyes to make a deal, because there is just this paradigm, wherefore they billy, dollars coming in from the international community, and I think that they fear that if they made a deal, I thought they would lose their relevancy internationally and the money would stop flowing into the country. So what I tried to do is to say you know my my approach when I would get into heart prompts a how do I understand all the different escape patches headed try to eliminate them and then build a golden bridge that becomes really the the only but also the most desirable pathway, fur thee decision makers to walk through and it wasn't always hard and I to going to hold your hand or you try to pick him up and walk across, but but but

are these leaders are very reluctant to change, and the dynamics of the palestinians also were such that I think they were fairly stuck where they were so. We developed a business plan for gaza and the west bank withdrew and some some improvements fer a jordan and Egypt as well. I've spaced it off of the vision, twenty thirty that they didn't saudi arabia, which I thought was a visionary document. I went back through this process and I studied Basically, every economic project in post world war, two periods, so we looked at what they didn't south korea. Why, with success always some strong industrial planning. We looked at japan, we looked at singapore, we looked at poland was successful. We spend a lot of time on the ukraine plan for the country and why it was successful and now is mostly because a governance in corruption which actually resembles a lot of It's gone wrong with the palestinians were there's no property rights is no rule of law and what we did

we built a plan to show no, it's not that the hard right in the sense that too in the west bank and Gaza, yet five million people, well and and- and we put together a plan- I think it is about twenty seven billion dollars. We got together a conference. I had the head of a t and t we had steve schwarzman from blackstone came, which is very gracious of them with all the leading arabic businessmen, the leading builders leading developers and the general consensus of that of that of that dab of that conference was that this is very doable. You know we think that for gas in particular ass, maybe maybe seventy eight billion dollars to rebuild the entire place. We felt we could reduce the poverty rate and half with great over

million jobs there, and the only thing that people said was holding it back was in Israel. What was holding it back was governance and people wouldn't have confidence investing there with a with the rule that that Hamas was was perpetuating so that encourage people actually to look at the plan was very thoughtful. One hundred and eighty one pages we went project by project. Each project is cost it out. It's a real. and that could be implemented, but you need the right governance and all of the different arabic countries are willing to fund it. The international community is willing to fund it because they've just been throwing so much money at the palestinians for years. That's never been outcomes based air conditioned space has just been you know: entitlement money and unfortunately it hasn't really achieved any outcomes that have been successful. So it great business plan it just shows to rebuilding Gaza could be easy but, like I said, the other problem that held the palestinian people back in that's made their lives, terrible.

in Gaza has not been Israel. It's really been, Hamas is leadership or lack of leaders, and their desire to focus on trying to kill israelis and start war with Israel over improving the lives of the palestinian people and the colonel roger from us, the more violence they perpetrate, the more they can hold on to power. Verse is improving the lives of people for their as said? Maybe you can comment on. They do not propose an economics plan I mean Hamas has been run it now for sixteen years and they don't have a lot to show for it. And you know our posture with them was basically a very simple deal. If you think about what's the end state in Gaza, and it's actually not that complicated, it's you know, there's no territorial disputes right the borders, the board, or there is no religious issues there as well. You know you're not dealing with jerusalem or you're, basically just dealing with the fact that- and you know Israel wants to make sure that there's no threat

from Gaza, soda demilitarization or some kind of security guarantee from a credible source where Israel doesn't feel like Gaza can be used. stage attacks into Israel or to a fire rockets and israel, These are things I was saying you know three four years ago at that that was the objective, and that was really the fear. Now that's been proven you know of by. Unfortunately, the fear has has manifested and in exchange you can rebuild the place and you can give the people a much better life. But Hamas is not your desire for that or a capability for that, and I don't think there's enough trust to allow them to do that just why you, under the current circumstances, if you do want have peace there, Hamas has to be either eliminated or severely degraded. Of their military military capabilities. A lot ask leadership, as passion on the other side of the united states? What is the cause administration by an administration done different than the trump

administration, as you understand that may have contributed to the events we saw this week. So All. I can talk about our part where we left them right. We left them a place where Had tremendous momentum in the Middle east, I met with them during the transition and said in a look. Don't we got the young, the qatar, saudi, a conflict on which was a big, peace, tween, Israel, saudi, would have been possible without that, so we ve got that done. in our lame duck period damn came in and they said, look- we want to focus on the three cs, which is covert climate change and china. Zealots that's great, but the middle EAST. We have an amazing place right now: I'd stable, there's momentum iran is is basically broker. We put such crippling sanctions on a ran that they went from about things. Two point: six mill, in barrels a day of oil? They were selling to tibet, two thousand under trump, so there their foreign current foreign,

currency. Reserves were basically depleted and they were broke seem with palestinians. We stop the funding to ah to to two to unravel the: u n agency, which is totally corrupt. It's it's. You know we ve put ten billion dollars in their over time it a poll in the middle east in that gaza to say it we've invested. Ten billion dollars. Here's a country are we popular right. U s had a seven percent approval rating usa. I d had a seventy percent approval rating, but it just felt like a waste of art, spare dollars and again we want to make a conditions based the binding mister She came in number one did they paid? They started and halting the us out in russia. Oil prices went up at the same time. What they did was they stopped a domestic production of oil. They made it the disincentive eyes, a lot of oil and shale production with regulations day. They stop pipelines, whale prices went off

stopped enforcing the sanctions against the ran, probably to get that well prices lower to make up for what they do. They ran to iran to try to make a deal that they started. Funding the palestine and again right away- and I even said you know: you're gonna find them. If that's your policy, I respect that again. Elections have consequences and you can take a different policy, but what I would recommend is get some conditions make them. Do some reforms make them give property rights to people, make them do real economic investments for people, but they just went right away. They were the palestinians, none for the sanctions and then overall just projecting a lot a weakness in the region so One of the most stubborn, embarrassing examples is what happened in the night. Arab emirates, again an again and amazing private of america's best allies over the last twenty thirty years they followed. In Afghanistan there, the first muslim country to stand up and do that after nine, Levin because I didn't want to be a war of the west against against the muslim muslim

legend. So they joined the fight because they saw it as a fight between right and wrong. They have rocket shouting, their country from from from from from from the hoodies- and they basically don't get a call from the? U s for seventeen days. They need their equipment that they buy from the? U s which creates job in the? U s, they need a restocked. We don't call so they ve severely degraded the trust that we had to rebuild with our allies to think they ve been working now to get it back. They after two years started working with with saudi and Israel, which I think was good, and I think that they realized after a stint. That may be the the process that president trump had created in the region was the right policy and keep a mind. You know, president trump's policy was there that I was working on was very strongly criticised during the first three years before we able to achieve the results, because it was departure from the failed policies of the past, and so first there was returned to those policies appeal Iran, let's criticise saudi arabia, then they stop

embracing and working on. The Israel sadie deal, which I was was was really exciting- think we're all very excited about it, but they did it in public, and I think that that also, something I didn't have access to their intelligence, I assumed that by doing it so publicly they thought that Neither had a deal with IRAN, they were letting him get all this revenue where ron would be a problem, but one of the rules with the abraham accords, we kept so quiet during the whole time. Because we always felt like the troublemakers in the region equally, IRAN, who we thought would would be disadvantage by having Are you a ye saudi israel altogether, Israel's anew your power that you have other strong economies. It ran sir, since debility. They seek looking to create a device. In the region, and if you can create that economic sphere you have security from haifa to miss scott from Israel, to a mine all the way through with saudi jordan. You are you guitar egypt, that an incredibly powerful block, if you can make

secure and then get economic integration that really could be a middle east that thrive, So I ran obviously wanted nothing to do with that, and that's why they ve been working to disrupts. I think the administration has. They took an incredibly stable situation with momentum. I think they are estimated. The tea The way that ran what approach the region to undermine. I think they gave way too much room to IRAN? And I think that they didn't sees when they had an opportunity of strength with the palestinians to try to drive to a conclusion that I believe could have prevented us being We are today not to mention that now, even just three weeks ago mean it's a bad luck that they they just below basically Six billion dollars to ran in exchange for hot jason, then IRAN's basically funding these terror attacks are killing america citizens in Israel, and it just it's. It's a heartbreaking situation again totally avoidable

and one that I think has been very badly mismanaged today. If trot was currently president you're still working with him on this part of the world. What actions would you take. What conversations which you have? What ideas would you be working with? in order to unite the the various allies that you mention in the middle east over this tragedy and not let it the thing that divides the middle east, but ah, make it a thing that the progress towards peace, further progress towards peace so I want to say, one thing lacks. I have a lot of friends who are fans of tromp were not fancy trump, but one thing I want say with absolute certainty is that if president Tromp was in office, this never would have happened, and president. Trump was in office. Anyone who supports Israel who wants to see you know jewish people. Not.

innocently slaughtered. He would never have allowed to happen. It did not happen when he was in power, and I hope people recognise that as something that's. That's very very true. However, play the ball where it lies. Right now, keep in mind, we transfer the ball. It was on the green. Now it's almost like it's gone back a hundred and fifty yards in its in san trap. I think the way that I would pay all right. Now is number one is you have to show strength actually think present binds words were the right words. I see it they're moving aircraft carriers to the region again, the purpose of having a strong military obviously we get into war. You want to win the war, but the purpose of a very strong military primarily is to avoid war. I dont what kind of credibility the Biden administration has to show strength, but right now you have do support is a completely you have to really. Let me

when the region know that they'll be consequences, if they, if day, if they try to escalate again, we saw a little bit of rocket skirmish from Lebanon from hezbollah, but again this type of thing that they have to know they'll be severe consequences. If make this a multi party fight and, I think, sending a strong message to a ran, I think that they have to see some consequences from this and know that they're not gonna be allowed to have a free rein to close instability in that, in our ran, doesn't usually fight face to face that you should do it through proxies. But, let's just all honest about where this is coming from and let them know that there will be a consequence if day, if they instigate these actions, again, at least with the binding ministration they ve had contact with ran, they ve been talking with, ran the latter random. In again, I then I saw last year, I think under trumped. The number was maybe like four five billion dollars of way haven't you and in total I think, last year with something like forty five billion dollars in revenue this year. I think I'll, be:

even more. That's a combination of them driving a boil prices, but also allowing much more sales. You would think that they would find a way to get them to behave and allow them to her to have this happened or, if that's not the case, then be tough, go back to being tough. That's we have to do building off of abraham accords. As you mentioned, Israel, saudi normalization, there's been a lot of promising progress towards this What does it take to are not allow this tragedy damage the progress towards Israel, saudi normalization? I think right now is probably not the best think about that. I think that we want to think about that after one first gonna happen is going to happen now. I think right now. The number one priority for israel has to be to full, regain a security in the country and the number two who is to figure out how you can. Like, I said, eliminate or degrade the hamas capability or other iranian threat,

to make sure that you have your security apparatus. I think that the israeli leadership right now should proceed with that, and I dont think that they should Thinking about normalization with saudi. At this moment, my instinct I've been watching this israeli saudi normalization play out. Obviously, just speaking with people and seeing what I've been reading and walking with great excitement, I think it would be a game chain for the region. I think, sir, it's one of IRAN's worst nightmares to have Israel sadie interlinked together. They can be great for the saudi people from a security perspective their discussing with america would be a very strong The ability to you know get different elements across would be incredible. So, but I would say, it is that the industrial logic help yesterday and I think it will hold again tomorrow so yeah. I always back countries to act in their interests. I think that the deal that's on the table right now between

Saudi Israel and america is in salaries interests its in america. Central and it's in Israel's interest, what's gonna happen, Now, though, is the political dinah. mixer, gonna shift, and I think that knows we ve with political dynamics. They come and go. I think, let's get through this moment, and then I hope at the right time that those talks will be able to resume and conclude in an appropriate way, and you know it's funny legs I was working on the. U s mexico agreement for the time aid in that we would have every day there be a tweet. I would go out. There would be an issue in people forget how how intense it was between them. good mexico, and I speak to my counterpart of max so after a rough day, and yet we working on something we're making progress had get blown up and its him say. Oh look do not move in america. they're, not before mexico, let's just get up a stop for details. Pick up tomorrow must find the way to bring this forward. So I would just encourage everyone

working on that not to give up but to keep working hard at it and to find a way, but, like I said, would take a little bit of a pause for the time being. Let's let the current situation play out and then hopefully they'll be away for to move forward. I just there still peep on the: u s, side, picking up the phone and calling- you ve sorry libya, just as human beings, friends, France's allies and just keeping that channel communication going they maybe you can correct me, but I just feel like there's just some human dynamics that play out here the divisions form and just run away from you over symptoms. The standing were on just inability to see a tragedy from the same perspective because of conversations that could have happened but didn't happen. I think they'll do

It may be communication, but you know words on phone calls is, is only worth so much. It's really. You know trust between people and power, and see when you're in a position of power. You represent your country in your countries, interests by the ability to have trusting relationships where people feel like they're, ok, taking more risks to help each other actually what's most important so communication I hoped for but yeah deepening entrusting relationships. That's what I believe makes progress in keeps people safe, and we talk. Critics so they want the value of trust and negotiation in just working with leaders, which I think is a fascinating conversation, and you ve taught me a lot about that, and we ask you about the end here. What are the very subject areas this work and take? In your view, what are some of and states, as you ve said, which are desirable. and are achievable. I mentioned

earlier, but whenever I would get a problem set in government had always think through from first principles perspective. What's the logical outcome right and forget about The reasons why can't happen? That's what everyone and governments always rush to talk about, but I do think here number one: Israel has to have a secure environment where they don't feel threatened from from from gus a number two: is the people in Gaza need to have an environment where they feel like they can live a better life and have opportunity. So that's the end state, and so I think that national community should come together. I do think that the people who are usually Putting blame on Israel should now realise that may be they and a little bit of harsher and that Hamas has been as big a threat. If not an even bigger thread, then Israel has been saying- and I do think- that If the international community comes together and unites behind Israel and really forces moss and their rights backers to stop hostilities,

sabre rattling to stop misrepresenting the history in order to justify their violent behaviour and if they say instead we want to hold you accountable, no more money and they all say that their stand behind Israel's efforts to eliminate their national security threats, and then we will come together and only fund again into a framework that we believe can be along term. Solution for the palestinian people really have a choice: and still live a better life. That's really the best way to get there, there's tons of complicating factors, but that's the end state that the global community should be looking to come together and it's very achievable. It's very, very achievable. There's a as we stand here today, there's a lot of different ways that this war can evolve and if a Ground invasion happens by israeli forces of Gaza, and if the number is correct a hundred thousand israeli soldiers,

de whaleboats varies trajectories that can take of the consequences that might have of of an unprecedented ground troops So I think as a leader in it, you can't change yesterday, but you have the ability to change them euro, and that's a very important fundamental in that the true for all of us, not just leaders, but You know we saw with the with nine eleven how america was caught off guard by terrorist attack. We acted They are somewhat rationally somewhat emotionally, which led to a twenty year war with trilling today as lost? You know there. I think that a million lives lost. Not just american but all lives and was a total trade de what occurred. I think right now The temptation is too to be strong. I think that that's that's necessity. I do think eliminating risk is the right objective. I think the goal should be to stay very clear about what the objective is.

but also this attack was very well planned, not walk into another trap. I think you'll be very smart very cautious. I've been happy to see that what the and doing in retaliation so far has been somewhat measured in there. Taken their time to try to assess what achievable again, I dont have access to intelligence and you know we're talk. at a very early stage in this conflict. So look at her and even by the time this is published, but but my my hope is that don't you stay very folk, the objective is and try to make sure that their acting appropriately? In order to do that- and I will say this too- that this has been different than what I've seen in the past and that the the attacks were so heinous and so so disgusting that I've seen National community rally around Israel morsel ever have, and I hope that Israel continues to keep.

The moral high ground and continue to communicate what their fighting for. Why their fighting and I do hope that the international community supports the objective and they can work together to achieve it. Benjamin Netanyahu baby, somebody to know well in negotiation in conversation, he has made statements has declared war, he is spoken about this, but as she being a long and difficult war, what did you learn about the mine and benjamin Netanyahu? That might be important understand here in this current war. Baby is definitely a historic figure in with a lot of different world leaders. In some of my would say there, there very very special transformational figure Some would say how the hell is this person running a country and

be somebody who has done a lot for the state of Israel. He has a tremendous understanding of this clarity apparatus. He has tremendous global relations so for a crisis like this, I think babies the leader. You want, if you're Israel, to be too in that seed think he said, he's ambitious in what he's gonna look to achieve He understands his role. History is somebody who's help, strengthen Israel economically militarily, and I dont think he wants to see him like a c b. Somebody who left Israel more honor ball, then it had to be so I think in that regard, he'll be incredibly strong, but I also think that whole hopefully become circulating in the risk that he takes and not create more risk than than is needed, and that's easy to say yes to us,

if you're, having a conversation when you're sitting in that chair as a leader in the fog of war, it's a very very and it's a very hard decision to make a he's been here before he. and he he knows the way of the situation. I'm sure he knows the moment and I pray that that he'll do what's right here to bring the best outcome possible I wonder if you can comment on the internal political turmoil, that review has been up in and how that relates to thee. Ah, the tragedy that we saw On the one hand, the political turmoil is a sign of a vibrant democracy. I think it's been. Actually nice to see how people are fought for their country in their beliefs in a democratic way. You compare that to the palestinians no democracy, there is no free speech that there is no free press in. You can disagree with. I will

your ship near in Israel, if you wanna know be. No, if you I'd be homosexual, you can have you can have a go to you didn't live your life and hot in in Gaza, the throw off the building and kill. You itself says in Israel, you have the freedoms which I think make it a special place, and you have a very vibrant democracy with that being said, you know the times. history, where are the jewish people have been most vulnerable, have been when there's been vision and that's when the temple was destroyed, but that's not just with the jewish. With Israel, that's in all societies, so I definitely believed that this division has left them. less prepared for the situation. That would, I do think, israel lessons we should be taking from this year. africa, where we're in a time where very divided, but I do think that be very wise for our leaders to find the areas where we do agree and find ways to

the car southern border to make sure that we know who's in our country. What risks we all face- and I do think that damn that division deftly creates risk for countries. Let me was scarce here and just does the man and look at our society and our public discourse at the moment, we make of the scale and nature of the palestinians support online in response to this situation. This is something I observed over the years since I guns. with the israeli palestinian issue, with a a of interest. I think a lot of the people who are pledging support for the palestinian people. I think that they, we want to see the palestinian people live a better life, and I I agree with them in that regard. Fortunately, I think many of them are incredibly ill informed as to the facts on the ground off the people who are

the killing online for the palestinian people who are who are you a going to these marches in support of them? I think they'd be best served if they really care about effectually outcome of joining with with his right now and directing their anger towards the Hamas leadership. I think that is very clear that the group that's responsible for the poor. Guinean people living the lives that all these people are angry out is Hamas and if they wreck their anger towards Hamas and put the attention on the failings of Hamas and put forth a vision for what they like to see leadership in guy so do and they respect that. There's a real fear that Israel has in any country would have of having a group of terrorist next to them. That's calling for their destruction I think that that recognition of finding a way for Israel to be secure

then, having an opportunity for the palestinian people live a better life. Is the right pathway to try and pursue the two. You there's a clear distinction between Hamas the palestinian people, in that Hamas is the enemy of progress and the flourishing of the palestinian people. On your present its very very clear- and I think that if people were honest about the situation if they spent time to really understand it again. If you follow the car so did about rain. We had off the leading businessman there and they said we can rebuild Gaza very easily. We all want to delete arabic many leading american basement. Everyone wants to their just held back by Hamas, and so I do think an honest conversation about this at this point in time has really Only one logical conclusion- and my hope is that may be this conflict- leads to that conversation being had and if it is then maybe brings more unity and understanding, and we kind of get to it.

We better that can improve the lives of the palestinian people. Pragmatic question about the future. You hope donald trump winds in twain, twenty four and how can his administration help bring peace to the middle I think, when Donald trump was president, we had a peaceful world, one set up, he was elected, we would have world war three. Meanwhile, he gets elected and he not only is the first president index, do not start any wars he's making peace deals he's making trade deals. He's working with our allies getting them to pay their fair share. A nato he's been having a dime. log with china with russia he's weakening ran, and so I do think that the job he did as a foreign policy president was tremendous, I think, you know now more more people are starting to recognise that again under President Biden, this is the second war broken out in the world and when you week. American leadership, the world becomes a less safe place, and so

hope and prayers are that, damn that that president tromp Israel, acted and that he is able to than restore ordering com in peace and prosperity to the world from a place of strength. It's the only way he knows how to do it well gives you hope about the future of this region of Israel and of the middle east, the middle EAST for twenty years was an area of conflict they spent all their money on bullets and bombs you have, leadership now in saudi arabia, U I e in qatar and there's a much more ambitious agenda now, for the region get an economic superpower but the world Israel is one of the most burgeoning and exciting tech economies in the world, and if you think It's almost like having can valley not connected to california. The thing that's held the region

for all. These years has just been the conflict in the division in the lack of connectivity, but if you have that region, if it cannot come together, if you can create security architecture, given incredibly yeah, population, you ve a lot of wealth and resources and a lot of abilities and and and knowhow, and so I think that, if its managed directly and verandas is, is able to be restrained and and and suppressed with their ambitions to cause destabilization, I don't mean around the country. I mean the iranian regime because actually, once you have the second mix fear have you could bring a rack into if you could bring ran into it. That makes it and bigger and stronger and the persian people are incredibly entrepreneurial and incredibly austria's. So I do think that the reach has tremendous potential. It's just been held back by bad policy. Bad leadership, bad objectives and again when president from left office in two thousand

Two thousand twenty one. The middle east was really on a very, very positive trajectory and if the right things happen, it can continue to be, so yeah. I'm praying at this moment in time that we now the current crisis, that the important objectives are achieved of elements the terrorists and their threats and then allowing the leaders who are focused on giving their citizens and and their neighbours the opportune to live a better life are able to work together in an and really dream and be ambitious and finally is to create a paradigm. where humans can flourish. What is the best way to defeat hate in the world hey. This is a very powerful force and its much easier to hate. people, you dont know it funny. When I was there

on prison reform? One of the most interesting people I met was a reverend actually down in texas who negotiated the first truce between the bloodshed scripts are two of the notorious gangs in america in prison. I was very excited to meet him and when I met him. I said we will have to do it and he says very simple. He says I got all the guys together and I I had the tremendous matter- barbecue brought it. He says, and I got meetings has no drinking says drinking sometimes gets people little bit war against each other, is, but I gotta meeting and they started sitting down together and they started saying you know what you're just like me and all the sun, started finding areas where they were more together. Look I've travelled all over the world. Now I've I've I've been very fortunate to meet people from different. dates in america, five different political persuasions, different ages, different classes and what I found his dad did. There's a few the mental driving amongst

all of us where we all want to live a better life. And you know people don't want to fight naturally, but it's easy to fight when you feel wrong. Do you feel like somebody disrespected you were somebody did something from hatred and and and hatred leads to more hatred, which sometimes just pushes that cycle further and further. So I believe that each and every one of us has the power to stop that cycle, and we don't do it by you know being on twitter and yelling at people. We don't do it by just being critical. We do it by fine The people we disagree with my list to them by asking questions by sitting with them and then, if we each take responsibility to try to make the world better, then I think that there's no limits to the incredible place at this. world can be says, as you say, you ve traveled, all across the world. He think most people are good. Most people have love in their heart. I do believe

and then you have some bad people. I mean you have some real evil people I mean a big part of the work I did was on prison reform and you know Previously, the mentality was is that the prison should basically be a warehouse for human trash. If you ve made me taken this world. Then throw you out and working to make the rest of your life incredibly difficult, because you can have a criminal record. You're not gonna, have access to jobs. but what I found this when I would sit with people in prison, the people I met through my father's experience and I met along. The way is that no people make mistakes. Raw human- I think it's the right, think for religious perspective. Give people second chances. I always believe you shouldn't judge people by the mistake they make in their life. And fourthly, now the arab social media, people will say one wrong thing: it sticks with them forever they get cancer older they get put out while humans

grow from our mistakes. We learn from our mistakes and I think that some people are just just evil. There are some evil people, but I do think that vast vast vast majority of people are good, and I do think that people sometimes also can be in a bad place and in society can push him to it worse and worse place. But we all have the power to make them feel. Love me feel, hurt and done, and I think there's also tremendous power that we have as people to help people get to a better plan. Since so you know. My wife we have always tried to be a force for good. We ve always tried to be. You know what we ve always try to provide a place where people can discuss with each other. When we were in washington the host dinners at our house all the time, or we would have democrats and republicans sitting together Noah and we just had I saw a yard senator Feinstein just passed away. We had a great, dinner at her house when she was a senator with her husband agenda mark meadows. When you some

freedom caucus. We actually a fascinating discussion about our ran mark was much more part line than me, to actually bite my tongue impressed at how much he did, whereas you know find fine huh, we're like super in tab near they knew the iranians. Well, they thought they were peace, loving and was in credibly robust and respectful debate, and so I don't think we may be concluded anything that but it was interesting for people to get together, at dinner my house red eye. Urban, not the number two ranking democratic, the Senate graham and Stephen miller. Who's not be if our hardline immigration discussing immigration. Reform could look like I mean they left that dinner. Saying wow, we haven't spoken people on the other side and we actually agree on like eighty five percent of things like maybe something is possible, and so I believe that we should always be trying to push to make the world a better place. And you only do that by listening to people and and connecting with each with people and by respecting people there and

well all just sound. This is that you know I mean people all the time who have so much confidence in their perspectives and am very jealous that these people are able to be so confident about every single thing, because for me I have seen some degree of confidence in the things that I. daddy, you didn't what I've learned, but I'm always trying to find. You know. People who disagree to kind of sharpen my perspectives and to help me grow and to help me learn further, and so I think that's kind of the beauty of the world is that you know the knowledge base continues to grow with a fax continue to change and was possible tomorrow continues to become different and so ass humans. We have to continue to get to I've too, to learn and to grow and to connect, and if we do that everything possible well, jerry

thank you for your compassion. First of all, but also your wisdom today, in this very difficult, this tragic set of events is difficult days for the world. It's a big honour to speak with you again, Every time I speak to you, I learned a lot about the world and I deeply appreciate, like I said you're humility and europe? standing of the details of all the plaques power dynamics, human dynamics, they're gone on in the world once again. Thank you for talking today thank you and lacks, if I could say just one final thing, which is that My thoughts and prayers are really with all the people in Israel and andy in civilians as well in the past,

then he inside and my prayers are with the idea, soldiers that they should be safe and they should be really watched by god to accomplish whenever mission will enable to make the world a safer place. Thank you for listening to this newly recorded segment immigration that addresses the current situation in Israel in Gaza, and now we go on to the second part of the conversation recorded on thursday october, fit. Given your experience in negotiating with some of the most powerful and influential leaders in the world was the key to negotiating difficult agreements and geopolitics start with a big question. If I look back on the different negotiations I had when I was in government, either

With leaders of countries with representatives of leaders, or even with members of congress to pass legislation, the most important thing I would draw back too would be trust, I think, getting to know each other understanding what was motivating the other party to get to the outcome and making them feel like you, weren't, going to use whatever information they gave you to benefit yourself at the expense of them is problem. Lee. What I would call table stakes to have a shot at accomplishing anything that was hard in negotiation. After that, I would say, taking maybe a first principles approach to what the outcome of whatever problem, looking to solve should be. Now. You have different kinds of negotiations. I always tried to create a framework in the negotiation where it wasn't me

against you. It was always let's agree on what the outcome is that we're trying to accomplish. Let's all sit on the same side of the table and say we want to get to this outcome. How do we get there really trying to create a road map, and so on, You understand the destination you want to get to the end point then you'd have to work backwards and really true to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand what were their motivations macros. Most of the time. You have to assume that a leader's primary objective was to stay in power, and so all decisions made would be made through the framework of what it would take to to do that and how would impact their ability to, Do that and then finally, I would just say that in any negotiation, you have to understand the power dynamics as well, and you have to then wait your approach in order to maneuver pieces to accomplish the objective, and so in areas where we,

add stronger power dynamics. I'd always look at it and say what are the potential escape routes where a politician would say. This is just the reason why we can't get there and I always think how can you try to eliminate those escape routes or make them much harder to accomplish and then ultimately think about? What's the gold bridge that you want to create for them in order to get to the other side where They were motivated to get there because it was in their self interest to get there, but also because it helped accomplish the different objective, and I have many samples that, at that I live through with that, obviously negotiating in congress. Ver for prison reform had to form a lot of trust with a Democrats whether rose hakim, jeffreys or dick durban. and also republican side, with I'd, Michael at length. He grabbed my head TIM Scott, senator Grassley and then also duck collins and the house was tremendous and every time We maneuvered something we would get attacked either from the left,

as the time we were being attacked by Nancy know John Pelosi, jean Louis, for not being included enough and then there were times that we maneuvered it we'd be attacked from the right for maybe going too far and ultimately we had fine, just the right place, where we can get it done in. The same thing happened with you assembly where we are negotiating the biggest trade deal and history of the world, which was one three trillion dollars. An annual trade between mexico, canada, the united states of america and we were able to form could trust with the others. Add and try to say how do we create win, win outcomes and ultimately, we are able to do something in a record time that people thought was very hard to do and both of them in a divided time of the trump administration were bipartisan winds. With with big big votes in the senate and the house, you have a lot of stories of this kind, sometimes assault the present as a hard approach. It is, I think, a story. Where would be? There was a potential like a dramatic

watching coming up and you had to say no no excuses or delaying you have to. We have to make this agreement or bb cares about Israel. More than the particular dynamics of the election, they get to draw a hard line there, but in fairness to like it enough for him during the time that we were dealing with him. He was always in election for selection, and then, action and What he was saying wasn't wrong and I think he was more expressing his concerns. Given the dynamics- and you know we never held those concerns against him. We just said those are real concerns. He had we respected those concerns, but then we helped him prioritize to help accomplished the right things and that's, ultimately, what the partnership is right on my job was to represent america. His job was to represent Israel and you'd other parties representing their own interests, and as long as you assume that you know, people were acting mostly in good faith, you you're able to navigate areas where you didn't. Have you no complete overlap of of priorities and objectives just to go back to the trusting

recent I see that would leaders whether how it looks like they're trying to go over the other person when they're talking, and so not having that, I think is a really powerful thing for earning trust like the people actually can believe that the results driven are and are working towards a certain end. Is there like a skill to that like? What is that genetics you born with that, or is that something like you develop the basically it requires you to the game of politics and not have a kind of cynicism about it to where everybody is trying to milly and manipulative and actually just going with a kind of open, my in an open heart and actually speak truthfully to people that kind of basic human level. I would say that I always would think about. How can I be a partner to others like? I would want somebody to be a partner to me and a lot of it comes from just my different experiences in business. I've had great

partners. I've had terrible partners. My father, you know get a lot of my. My childhood was exposed to business. My father you dont sundays. He would take us too, to job sites into the office with him. Instead of the football games. Like my friends, you know fathers would do, and so we are exposed to business and what he would say about his father, who is an immigrant to amend I came up with nothing, had no formal education, He would always say a good deal with a bad partner will always be a bad deal and a bad deal with a good partner. You'll figure it out, and so going through some of the challenges in it that I had in my life early on whether it was the issue with with that my father via that book. I'm sure we'll talk about our or even going through some tougher financial times in the great finance crisis. I really learned a lot about partnership and I always thought how can I

act in a way where I could be the type of partner or friend to others that I wish others would beat me. So we look for a good partner. Don't you think, there's capacity for both good and bad in every person. So we'll talk, negotiate with all these leaders. Are there like multiple people, you speaking to inside one person the they are trying to encourage catalyzed, like the goodness, inhuman. Yes, Lee leaders are generally chosen by their country, and so my view was. If I had an objective, I don't get it choose who is the leader of other countries? My job was to deal with that leader understand their strengths. Understand there mrs understand their power dynamics as well. You know one of my greatest take away my girl If read the newspapers about all these powerful famous people, then, as I got older and had the chance to meet them and do business,

them and then ultimately interact with them government is? I realized that they're, just like you and me, they wake up every morning the other kids are pissed at them. Their wife doesn't want to talk with them. You know, and they've got that of advisers round that one saying go: let's go to war, one saying: let's make peace, one saying do the deal once you don't do that deal and they're all thinking where do I get advice? How do I make decisions and so understanding that human nature of them and then the different power dynamics around them. I thought was very key. So I didn't have a choice to deal with them or not, is a function of how do you deal with them effectively in order to find out where you have common interests and then work well together. Sue the common interest in what are to achieve a certain go you for all your incredibly well red have gotten to know you and I've got to know Ivanka, and the book recommendation list is just incredible. So, first of all, thank you for that. You told me about the guns of august by barbara tuchman. It's a it's a book.

What do I won and I went down a whole rabbit hold their second incredible historian by away the there's a bunch of stuff you learn from them. One of the things you told me is it influenced your general approach to diplomacy, of just picking up the phone and giving it a try, so as opposed to planning and ah strategizing, just pick up the phone says. So this was a book. I read a way before The notion of serbian government was ever even on my mind or reality, and I remember thinking about it. Reading it and thinking how world or one started where you had somebody's assassinated in than you had all these different alliances that were created. And then in order to accomplish objectives it triggered. All of these points getting in bed with everyone else because of documents that were created without the intent of going to a massive war, and I think

in the course of world war one. It was one of the greatest atrocities that we ve seen as humanity, with sixteen million people killed in that war, and I was I was reading the book I member think to myself. Even the new things are set in a certain way go sit with somebody go talk to them and say this doesn't make sense. This is wrong. How do we create a better pathway and civilian, all my life, I would read the newspapers I would I would I would you know how different leaders would act. But when we had the opportunity, this if government and have the position you realize, you're, not a civilian, you don't have the luxury of back in letting the world happened. The way it's happening. You have agents and you have the potential to influence the outcome of things and One thing: I've seen, as you know, most political prognosticated are wrong. Anyone who tells you what's gonna happen really has no clue and it's not because their batter they're not intelligent. It's because nobody knows, and at the end of the day, the outcomes in the world

equally driven by the decisions of humans and if you're able to come together or form relationships, listen to each other. do that and one of the great examples that I speak about the book is with north korea. If you remember in two thousand seventeen, it was very intense when president obama was leaving office. He told president trump that the single biggest fear that he had and this at a time when the world was a mess, you add, the middle east on fire. Isis whisper picture lesson killing christians data caliphate, the size of ohio, Libya was to stabilize yemen, was stabilize. Syria was in a civil war or five hundred thousand p. Or killed ran, was on a quite path to a nuclear weapon. Yet the single biggest fear he had was north korea then it got compounded by the fact that again to office and present trump brings his generals around in his learning how to interact all the generals and says here. What are my options and I said,

down wait? We been using offer ammunition in the Middle EAST. We don't have enough ammunition to go to war over their issues. Let's not must not let that be public. Let's try to restock and come up with a plan and at the time, There is a lot of banter back and forth and how is able to. I got a call from a and who is an old business contact? Who actually had done business in north korea- and he said you know, I'd love to find a way to solve this, and I was getting calls from friends at the time saying I'm trying to go to hawaii for vacation. I not be going, is it not safe? I mean we forgot, forget the psychology of how intense that was at the time and then, through that interaction he caught him contacts north korea and then we were able, with the cia, to open up a back channel ultimately led to the desk nation the meeting between trumpet can jungle which led to a the escalation. So that was the mindset which was whenever there is a problem. Just

the phone and try and think president trump had a very similar approach, which was, let's, let's give it a shot and he wasn't afraid to go after the hard ones too and I'll say one final thing on this, which is that in politics the incentive structure is just much different than in the real world right in the sense that you have a hard problem then, if you try to solve a hard problem, the likelihood of failure is great, whereas in the business world, if you're going after a hard problem, we celebrate those people right. We we we want, for entrepreneurs and our great people to go after solving the big hard problems. But in politics, if you try to take on a hard problem, give a high likely failure to get a lot of criticism on your pathway to trying to accomplish that, if you fail and that, if you oil as a higher probability of leading to you losing your opportunity to serve, and so is just one of these things where people want to play it safe

which is not the notion that that that really was taken during the time that president trump was in office. Getting has to be that way. I think I think, there's something in in the human spirit like in the public that desires politicians to take big. Take on the big, bold problems right like why. Why is it? The politicians need to be so afraid of failure. I don't think it has to be that way and that's, I think, one of the great Lessons from the time and of the the trump administration he brought a lot of people from the business world into government. The business people have a much different in setting government people, and there is of resistance, and I think part of why there was much resistance was because you know, is, I think about it. My personal sense was that, if I was as for with no traditional qualifications, do diplomacy. It meant that all the people with traditional qualifications and diplomacy, dns

indeed those qualifications in order to be successful. In that same that same sentiment, manifested itself in many areas and government and- and I think that in the business world, its outcome oriented Its results, oriented and give it we would see and in new york is there they would stab in the eye and dc they would stab in the back and it just became a whole different line. Dynamic of of how you work through these different areas, so the answer is it. It doesn't have to be that way. You just need the right, courageous leader and that's why I'm so optimistic about what the few or of american, the world could be, if you have the right people in power or who are willing to take on the right track. Just? Do it in the right way so vigorously? north korea de escalation in the meeting. What's the trajectory from this- could be the most catastrophic thing that destroys the world to you find channels. You start talking and arrange a meeting deserves some inside. He can give to how difficult that is today,

in that in north korea case, which seems like to be one of the more closed off parts of the world and in the other cases that you worked on yeah? It's it's always very challenging, and especially when you're going against the grain of what's established right, we did something different to think that an old business contact that I had or could then do it mean that's the type of thing that you know it If the press knew what we were doing, they would have derided it and criticised it in every which way. But that was one of the benefits of operating variant. Blow, the radar as that we are able to trial these different things and not all of them work, but some of them did, and yet that is what amazing about the world right. This could be the biggest story on the front page of every paper and there citing fear and everyone, and it's not a legitimate fear me. There were missile test. You know over over pan, and you had a lot of very chant. They challenges with that file. Then, all of a sudden we may contact. We go through negotiations to set a meeting, theirs and beating tween present.

from becomes your gun, then all of a sudden there is that there is a framework to try and move things forward and again. I think that there is a lot of possibility there for what could happen if it's worked in the right way. I saw no like You were the first email or text message like what emerges to use like the hugging homology. I like it just per se gone to know a lot of powerful rich people. Anxious- is funny that they're all human, just like you saying alike, lot of the drama. Lot of the problems can be resolved just like a little camaraderie a little kindness a little like the just actually just reaching out. All human beings and and people want to be successful and people want to be good and and your right to there There's way more emerges involved in diplomacy than I ever would have expected, but every lead I'm sure, as their favorite remote is also learn about. People is like the there's. This area

is the go to emoji like as you go to the heart very quickly, the emoji there's some people who go the hugging whatever that for you like the hugging thing anyway, this conversation quickly turned to the ridiculous, but to do another book reference. You mentioned the book thirteen the september by lawrence right and not discussing all the work is done in Israel in the middle east one aspect of the interesting aspect of that book, which is the influence the personalities and personal relationships on these negotiations? You gonna start to allude to thou trust, but how much do the personalities matter in this regard- from north korea to the middle EAST here within congress and all that kind of stuff yeah completely in every way mean that that that's an incredible book and it's a very entertaining read It- has us I've seen a lot of good historical contact

than some of the key players. Weather is on more sudatta men, often bacon our Jimmy carter and and and sigh vans, and in a lot of the others who were involved with those negotiations and did the thing that I kind of took from that experience was just personal. It was, and and again one of my favorite stories from that book was how on earth sudan. Who is a big big leader? I hear amiss who is according to this book again history. I like reading it, but I always you know realise that you have to notice that this is just the perspective of a given author. That's writing it, but the way that they write this. was that he had an adviser. Who is a mistake and the mystic was having a back now, with the israelis and the mystic told said, dot you go to Israel and you make a speech at the king s head bacon is ready to give you the sinai and so He goes to Israel. They set this whole thing up. He goes and gives the knesset they go for their meeting after and Sadat, says: okay well, but we're going to do this thing and basis what he talking about. Am I giving you an inch of our land,

and it was just one of these things, whereas a miscommunication that brought about the symbolic visit of onwards, not to Israel, and that was one of these notions that just made everyone think that something was possible that they thought was impossible a moment before. Actually we had an example like that during our time in government, when we did the abraham accords the first step of the way for it was really a phone call between president tromp. Prime minister Netanyahu and events. I do at that point, the crown prince in and the fact that ruler of the- u I e, but always that was a phone call and then a statement that was released and what was interesting after that. As we said, okay. Well, how do we integrate countries nobody's done this in a long time and we are trying to figure- all the issues and there's big miscommunication Israel and you are ye and we were navigating throughout the issues and so on, A couple weeks is that you I've got to go over there and try to sort through these issues, so we make a plant, got Israel them and go to uea and then a

young gentleman, who worked with me named avi berkowitz, says what for flight Mr Prodi, you are ye instead of flying on a government planned. Why don't we see if we can get an l I'll play animal? Do the first official commercial flight, and so I said that's great idea: let's call basra tiber use if it was a tremendous player in the abraham accords, working behind the scenes you know day and night and was really a big hub that a big catalyst. So he calls you, seventy said sure, no problem, let's give it a shot. So so we go and we do it. He says if we can work at these issues, what we'll do it so we go to Israel. We do our meetings, we get everything back into a good place. We set up this this this trip over we fly in an El Al plane. We fill it up at the time it was during covered with a health delegation. We had the the financial ministry because we have to open up banking relationships. Like a wire money between countries. We won't get health that partnerships them he's had a lot legal things, national security things, you want to start putting together. So we do this flight and

we end up landing in you. I ii and the picture of us coming off plain being greeted by either. Amravati is and toby with a allow plane with an israeli flag on it. Just captured everyone's imagination. and so is one of these things where it's like. You worked so hard on the detail The negotiation of mean hundreds of hours to cotton, make everything everything's perfect, in the one thing that you do kind of you know yeah. Let's give it a shot that image ended up capturing everyone's heart, so going back to sadat that visit very critical, and what was interesting was is, according to this book, it happened because of a miscommunication that was the first part, the second part of the book, that's just amazing, theatre, the book was based on a play was just going back and forth with all of the different methodology that they tried that failed, but they kept trying out it. and then ultimately seeing how the personalities were able to find ways to make the compromise ultimately was a very, very big thing for

or stability in the middle east, and so amazing covered highly recommended. A very uncertain, reed and, and something that at least gave me encouragement tat to keep going when the task I was pursuing seem so so so large, I mean, if you just linger on the personalities, use your eye in the book that words matter or you you right in the context of saying in the diplomacy, business words matter, and then he said that we're in the results business as bad as line, but but bridges and stick to the diplomacy, business and awards mattering. It seems like I wanna things they highlight the individual words can really have you can fight over vigil words like how do you operate in a world where, like single words matter, I think you have to be respectful to the craft that you're in

words matter, but then realized that they don't matter as much and then also focus on the fact that you know the actions are actually what's going to matter more than the words, and so you have a difference between leaders politicians in politicians are, they are to say the right thing and to hold the power. Leaders are p both were willing to do things. That will be transformational from my perspective, and so when I would think about diplomacy, words without actions or without the threat of actions. That was something that present trumped did very well was that people knew that he was willing to take action. He was very unpredictable and how he would act and that made our words much more effective in what they did. So it's all a combination, but you know coming from the private sector, we, all about results right of urine government. You can work on something for ten years and

ill and then retire, and they consider you an expert in the private sector. If you work on something for ten weeks and you don't have a success and you're unemployed, you know so it's it's it's a different kind of notion and down, and it's just understanding the mentality in trying to adjust and and bridging the divides between the different trainings is at the biggest thing he took from your business back on is that just be really result focused it's the only way to be mean. If I was giving up, you know it nicely in new york and if I was giving up, you know the the stuff that I really enjoyed the company that I'd I'd help build and yet the the the the the life that I was enjoying in order to do government? I was going there to make a difference and we have to focus on it the other skillset. So there was a couple of skill sets that I found were quite deficient in government. First of all, there was a ton of amazing people. I mean people talk about the bureaucracy What I found was, as you had incredibly committed, passionate intelligent, capable people all throughout the government

and what they were waiting for, though, was direction then cover in order to get there, and so there are a lot of asks that I worked on, whether it was you know, building the wall at the southern border, where I was able to work with. You know, customs border patrol. Army core of engineers, military d. As professionals, a d o d and we basically all came together and then once we had a good project management plan, we are able to kind of move very very quickly. I think built about four hundred and seventy miles of border barriers. about two years basically- and that was very- that worked very well, because we basely brought private sector project management skills sets which, which were quite often missing and government. This can one is just yet. We spoke about negotiation earlier. I would say that most people in government- it's

in the form of negotiation, then you see in the private sector and way less effective in that regard, which is why I think it's good the more we can encourage more people with private sector experience to do a stint in government and two they try to contribute and serve their country. The tower founders mean George Washington and all the that the founding fathers they work on their feet. Arms. They they left their farm servant government than they went back to the farm and that was kind of the design of the representative gum men, it wasn't a career political class. It was your people coming in to vienna, show gratitude for the free the liberties that they enjoyed, and then you know, do their best to kind of help others- have the same opportunities that they had and then they go back and live their lives. And so I think that there is a lot of opportunity with our government of people with more business mindsets who are going to think about things from a solutions. Perspective go serve is that one of the main problems hearsay you. You also mentioned the book, the great degenerate

action by neil ferguson. An awesome historian has been on this podcast. It helped. You understand the inefficiencies of government regulation, I'd love it if you can give an insight into why government is so in a fish and at times when it is inefficient, when it doesnt work, why's that the case, the bureaucracy that he spoke to the negative aspects of the bureaucracy. So we don't have time on this podcast to go into it, but it's a look, There is a lot of aspects that work is well right, but I do think we ve gone to beg. You know niels busk, you mention you know one of things I took from that. I read it. I think in two thousand twelve twelve right new kind of in the middle of the great financial crisis was He was time, but how government regulation often was put in place to deal with old crises, it was never going to solve future problems. It was more to kind of create it to solve for problems that had happened in the past. I remember thinking about that. One thing I was very proud of of the work of the trump administration was that,

you had four years consecutively, where there is a net decrease in the cost of regulations. So to give your contacts and last year of obama thousand. Sixteen there is. Million men hour spent by the private sector, complying with new federal regulations and that's not really what the intent of our guns, was right. If we have rules or regulations, though, should be legislated by congress, they shouldn't be put in by you know by beer rats who are basically saying I want to follow this objectives that using kind of the power of the pen in order to do that, so the deregulatory effort was actually very critical to trumps economic success. That happened at the beginning of the administration and then what I saw. Regulation was any time either there was legislation or regulation coming the people pushing forward were usually the people would benefit. the regulatory captures you had. These you look at the great financial crisis where you had this big banking reforms or what happened during the big banking reforms than you had. A big reduction in the amount of banks that occurred in the big

thanks became even bigger, whereas I dont think that was the intention of the legislation. But the people who were writing legislation and influencing it? Had a lot of the constituencies from those larger institution and then what happened as a result of that, a lot of smaller institutions didn't have the ability to be competitive. They add more restrictions, more costs, they became less profitable, but these were the banks that were serving small business, which is the big the creator of jobs in our country and then, as a result, the bigger banks got more powerful and what in the country as a result of the regulations that they put in place the wealth gap in the country, grew within shrink, and so I think it is often times what they say. These regulations are intended to be. The result often becomes the opposite, and so You know what what president trumped did and his administration was. They did a massive deregulatory effort and I think they pledged that for every

one regulation they put onyx, you do need some regulation in an economy and in a society, or they would take off too and in the first year the limited eight regulations for everyone, and so that was just something I took from it, which, was, I thought very interesting and you had to really. I think you have to think through what are the consequences? Gonna be if the different actions you take and often government gets it wrong by taking an action that feels right, but has big negative consequences down the road. Let's go to some difficult topics. You wrote in the by your experience with some very low points in government, you ve been attacked. Quite a bit one of the ones that stands out as the accusations of collusion with russia, and you tell in the book in general. This whole story, soldier and on a personal level on a sort of big political level, can you tell me some aspects of the story sure so as to give the listeners some context and peace

remember this now it's been kind swept away because it turned out not to be true was dead after president from one election, two thousand sixteen instead the media, saying we were wrong because again everyone thought he had zero chance of of winning. They said okay. Well, we could have been wrong. It must have been the russians who worked with him and so worse when this started coming up. I thought this was ridiculous. I mean I was very intimately involved with the operations of the campaign. I was running the finance of the campaign. I was writing the digital media of the campaign. I was running the the the the the that the schedule for the campaign and I knew that on most days we have trouble like gonna work. coordinating with ourselves eda, let alone did over collaborating with another government and our colluding as they called it, and so we did a great job I think, as an underdog campaign, very lonely staffed and then they said as you know, we were working with the russians and so at the time I didn't take,

you seriously, because I knew there was no truth do it, but it was amazing to me start seeing all of these institutions whether it was cnn, the washington post in your time, these renews organizations that I grew up having a lot of respect for taking these accuracy since so seriously, and then working themselves. Up in, or two in order to just cover it for two years, then as result, yet a special counsel yet had a house investigation, Senate investigation- and I personally spent about I think, over twenty hours just your testifying before these different Betty's against spent millions of dollars of that my own pocket. Oh my legal fees to make sure as well represented and the reason I did, that was being As I saw at washington, it was like a sick aim right. It's almost like you though there was no underlying problems to the accusation I felt like this is one of those things where they're gonna try to catch you and then, if you step on the line that catch you with one misrepresentation there and try to put you in jail or worst of no bid bit gibbon and so for me,

that was a big concern, so and it was amazing me, my might my poor mom, I told her to stop being a reading, would have s my promise. You ve been doing the wrong it's good, but she commie save all our friend were on the upper side were talking woodchuck shoe mrs jerry's going to jail. Yet we for sure that he collude with the russians, and this is like a leading, senator saying things like this, and so it was just ensure for me to see happen. Whole world could believe something and be talking about that I knew with one thousand per certainty was just not true and so seeing that play out was very very hard. Obviously, and I was accused of a lot of things that were times and washed, and I was radioactive our member one weekend, it was all over cnn, the other people they panels on cnn, like the news organization that I grew up. Thinking was like the number one trusted name for new in the world tugboat. How I'd committed treason- because I met with ambassador and said we'd like to hear your perspective on what you think the policy should be

in syria, where there was a big civil war happening and and and isis enlargement thinks so it was quite a, crazy time in that regard. But luckily again we were able to fight through. It is a major distraction for administration that I think we are able to kind of stay focused on the objectives and policies, but whose, crazy time- and I learned a lot from that experience- is crazy. I'm just an can be viral and can use go one of the things that worries me is the effect in your mind, the psychology of it to make sure it doesn't make you cynical, like people are trying to do stuff those kinds of stories that can destroy their mind. The one of the things I'd love to sort of understand you kind of rolled in from this and all sudden that in the entire world foresee an end, everybody's, accusing me of clean with the russians what do you like you're sitting at home. How do you keep a comment

a clear, minor, optimistic one that doesnt become cynical and actually just keep trying to push on and do stuff in the world. so it was a surreal experience outs in number. One is. I felt very confident that I had done anything wrong so now I tell my lawyer, like you know, the good news is I've got a good faq problem right like I need a good lawyer to get me through it, but it's it's much easier to be a good lawyer if you have a very innocent client and so near the fact that I knew that I didn't have I didn't believe that I had any legal liability help me kind of intellectually rape. The challenge I need to do to fight through it from it, and then I just basically said like had hardship earlier. My life, I dealt with the situation with my father, and but I realized there is that you can't really spent energy on the things that you dont control you can do is spend your time and energy worrying about what you can control and then how You react to the things that you

there, and so it took a lot of a lot of discipline. It took a lot of strength and again I give my wife. Vodka and even donald lot of credit fur. having my back during that time and end and young know me just a kind of fight through it, and I also had to make sure that I didn't allow that to distract me for my job. I felt like I had an amazing opportunity in the white house to make france in the world and if I were to spend all my time playing defence, young politics, it's a time, duration, game in business. You have whatever duration you set for yourself in politics as time duration. We had for years every day with sand through an hour glass. My mind set was: I need to accomplish as much as I can. These four years? And I guess the traditional game is played in washington is whether it's the media, the opposition at their job, is to distract. you and then try to stop you from being a successful as you want to be, and so just what through it and damn no it's fun, but we got through in and thank god, it's it's something! People on talk about it.

it has been amazing to me just the lack of self aware It is and and reflection of a lot of the people who hyped this up for for two years. They don't think there is anything wrong with it and that's interesting, but you know my view. Is we got through it? It's good to it's in the past and then move into the future and that's really westphalia, but our link on it because to me there's a really discouraging fact that anyone who is trying to do positive in the world like these kinds of attacks are intense. The menu you say: can one of the lessons you learned is that you really have to be perfect, but I hate that to be the lesson like I feel like you should be able to do stupid, stuff, take big risks and let people celebrate the big risks and not try to weave gigantic stories of over nothing. They just want to kind of understand the two aspects of this. How to not have such

toys, have so much legs and the others how to stay psychologically strong. He kind of waved it off the to novel fact problem, but it didn't just have of of affecting your psyche. Yet you simply you pretty stalk about the whole thing but like how they are just on the psychology side. How did you stay calm and not become cynical? We can continue to do stuff and take big risks. Never choice. When I mean I mean I could have spent every day feeling sorry for myself for complain, anger, saying things aren't fair, but that the general, when I looked at it was in life every opportunity as a cost and in our union. Get it and say. Maybe this was a massive cost, either in in dollars or in time or in reputation or in or in or in an emotional drain, but you could also say

at you know. I had an opportunity to work in the white house and I had an opportunity to work on some of the hardest challenges you talk about how that is not celebrated. That is something very different in the private sector. When you on big challenges that is celebrated in government. When you take on big challenges, people want to see it fail or they want to criticise those people who are trying to take that on, and I think that's wrong and I think that as a country we should be thinking big wish, be dreaming big and we should be encouraging our politicians to trying to fail more and to know ago went to work to take on big things, knowing that there is a risk of feeling, after what d succeed not to fail, but that lets take on the big things. Let's try to do that. So I think it's just very basic. That You know, you're in a situation I made decisions, I can't go back and change decisions in the past. I still felt in a very plus to be in the position I was in, and I knew that I had to work through it and, like I said I was very lucky to have support from my wife and from my family and from good friends again,

I think I d had chosen very good friends in life, and my friends were with me one friend too, You know my lowest moment the plane you lived in arizona gonna play in came just have dinner with me to say just just pick your head up, no you're down now you're gonna be fine, just just fight through that meant a lot to me. and I always think in my life, you dont learned much from your successes, you don't learn as much from your high points. You learned the most about who you want to be and how the world works from your lowest moments and at those lowest moments. It just did made me better and did take taught me how to be a better friend, people who are in tough situations, and I tried to just get get tougher, and I tried to just get better and work through it yeah. You said that you and Ivanka b this this this and this intense time brought you two together and helped you kind of deal with the intensity of the chaos of it all

so I think it was just number one knowing that you had a partner and knowing that you had somebody who who loved you and believed in you. I think that was definitely by far the biggest of anything and love is the answer. Love is very important Then there is also a lot that I've learned from her always you're getting meta to redefine books. learn different things which had love but she's off. I think an amazing role model and I go through our time in Washington, where there are so many people who were, I thought very nasty to her unfounded lie and I'm not talking about individually, because again, most people interacted with her were super kind. But I see people you know on twitter. Different places go after and she always stayed elegant I felt like. That was something that she never seen. down to a lower level. She kept her elegance the whole time and she really went to washington wanting to be a force of good, and I see all the time. she she followed her heart. She does what's right,

and she has a very strong moral This and I feel very lucky to have as a partner and I respect her tremendously. Yes, you asked the fire with grace, I would say, and she's recommend Bunch amazing books diminishes the shipbuilding and credit fascinating mind so, one thing I jumped out amuse you both love, diners, jersey, diners, Well, I I lived in philly for awhile and have you know I I traveled quite a bit and traveling from Boston and philly, maybe to d c you can drive through jersey, something by jersey. I dunno. What it is you listen to bruce Springsteen as a lucy cares as bit, where I think it's part of criticizing, says cell phones today, where people are too much on their phone. They don't just sit there be bored, but his uses that,

story to tell were he just driving in a bruce Springsteen song comes on and he just wants to pull over to the side of the road and just like weep for the unexplainable reason. And now I think that's true, because life is difficult, life is full of suffering or struggle or challenge is finding something. Sometimes it's always Bruce Springsteen, but like some kind of like this can really make you reflect on life that melancholy feeling, but that mallika feeling is the other side of the happiness coin. Where, if you just allow yourself to feel that pain, you can also feel the highs joys as thirst at the point lucy game makes in there something by jersey, where the diners, often late at night, that there's several diner experiences. I should say: okay, there's like the family friendly, there's a nice waitress, and just this a sweetness, a kindness like hello, sweetheart,

That kind of thing there's also like the three m diner we're like the ones are open. Twenty four hours. That's has magic comment, when you're a young married woman, you like travelling The loneliness of that all of the american diner is like for my jack kerouac on represents something not sure that is, but it's like a real beautiful experience and the food itself who always rash after that, the thing with diners there's so much to love about it been. I grew up, new jersey, when I go there with my father too, business, you don't stop. We need at a diner late night I become back my friends, we see but a diner and that's a tradition, that of aachen. I love doing as well, and I think there's, there's a notion of its value. terry and in that you know, people from all places. Are there you can order based, whatever you want. I want a mean that the menus diners look like the phone book grand.

it's amazing how they keep you know so much fresh ingredients to do it. At least the good ones. Do I'd love as jersey guide. Mozzarella sticks and dub and an omelet. You know at any hour of the day is most more open twenty four hours and that's a basely by vodka. I go to a throne milkshake or too as well, but fur. For me as a kid, my father would take me sometimes I sit with him in the meeting, sometimes at b at the table. Next to him, he give me a bunch of quarters the music machine that they would have under the wall It was always just a great experience. Doing get in jersey now joke that you know what grow up in jersey. You grow up with just just enough for chip on your shoulder that you have to go and make something of yourself in life. It's a it's a special place, I had an amazing childhood there and a very proud to be from the state, and I will just give a low but of a plug now, because the state has now. Actually. Turned the corner and they had a ten billion dollar budget surplus for many years. You know a state that was sickly bankrupt and now

actually, under a pretty progressive democrat governor, I feel murphy eyes the state around that it's actually has a very bright future ahead and it's it's probably one of the best places to raise a family in the country right. It's got very low crime, one of the best public school systems in the country, pretty good healthcare system lot of the green parks. People know the turnpike, but it's got a lot to it. That's really great! So I'm a big big fan of jersey in a like whoa. This is a first for this I guess you literally give a plug. Does state that new jersey, air ready it's where its at the solidarity is nurtures I mean those all kinds of yours is too I mean the whole thing is just I don't get me start on the jersey. or likes that was the shores at then I'm not talking about the snooki part, I'm talking about the real nice parts, where there's great food, great people in nice parts, it's all beautiful, the full range of human characters, that are in new jersey? He all beautiful? I agree with that, and every time I try local

Well, there's always a me somebody from users in uk out of unleashed a deep understanding, the cradle civilization me. Ok, oh back, I dunno how it got there. Oh alright, going back to the the low points you mentioned, your father for could just return there. Even just the personal story of your father of that you write about that. The betrayal that happen his life and then were how he responds that betrayal and he was come after that? Arrested can just tell the story. Sure My father is an amazing person and we grew up in a jury my father was a big developer, great, which printer built an amazing business and he gone to a dispute with two of his siblings and through that dispute they basically took off, document in his company went to the u s attorney's office and dam and a yoke turned into,

from a civil dispute into a real public dispute. My father did something wrong in that process. And you know when you got arrested for that. He basically said you know it. I did was wrong and he took his medicine and he did it. Like a man and he said: I'm gonna go to prison in any did at four year, and so for me that was a very challenging time in the family. Obviously, in I gave you it was a shock it it was a total change. I grew up my my childhood was, I think, of her his childhood. You know my parents, I said you do good school work hard, It's very very focused on my athletics. I was captain of the basketball teams kept the hockey team up. Yet we ran a marathon, my father, and it was always about pursuing with the went to harvard graduate with honors, and there was and why you are pursuing a law degree and a business degree, and I was working in hand. Strict, attorney's office at the time? Actually thinking? I wanted to go into public service, because my father

taught us we always surrounded by politicians, and here we said you know my parents came to me God they lived in the land of oz, unity and had these opportunities, because this is the progress country in the world, and so you should be successful. Work hard. Don't ever let your opportunities become your disadvantages, because you have advantages in life. You have to work harder and that's what he instilled in myself and my brother, and that was pushed us to make the most of ourselves and when we did that everything changed overnight when my father got arrested. Obviously it's very embarrassing for a family when you're on the front page of the papers. I would see the newspapers writing all these things about my father that I did think we're representative of the person that I knew I was a big change for family and you know angry. I angry I savvy. I could be angry at debt. The prosecutor- I could be angry at my father's brother right- be angry.

My father's lawyers like being beer at my father fur for making this mistake. and then I kind of said the sucker change anything and I I had a real shift, and I I do think that that was a turning point in my life, where I basically said, let me focus on the things I can control. Let me focus the positive things I can do and from that moment when I said how can it be a great sent, my father? How can it be a great older, There are slash you no substitute father for my mighty sisters, my younger brother. How could I be there if, my mother? How can it be there if my father's business I just went into the battle boat, and I put my I might make my ipod. armor on and I just you know, ran into it and for the it's two years? It was every day was painful and I was dealing with. Banks are stealing the company's still at subpoenas. I was still in law school. While I did tell my father, I want to drop out of the. sk on business globally said. Please don't so. I would mostly

law school one day a week or maybe I'd skip it most days. I go to his office every day and our friends would joke that. If my professors wanted to fail me that the the law, professor, would have to give me a test that had four pictures and say circle who your professor is you know, but I would Take a week offered read the books and I did well- and I got my degrees and it was just a very, very challenging time but, like I said to you before, is that you learn the most about life when you learn the most about humanity and yourself when you in your most challenging periods and I'll say that near that expired also changed. You know the people I interacted with spinning weekends. My father down in a prison in alabama, met the other inmates. I met their families, Ben time than trying to advise the children of other people who were going through the same ix, I said I'd gone through and had advocated it dino correctly and- just learn a lot about the world, and you see that no life everything could get taken from you.

Status your money. Your friends, I saw that certain people were very slow my father at the time who he thought we're friends. It was only a handful, but again I learn from people. How can I be a true friend the people? How can I be better and I learned a tremendous amount through that experience. You write that your father told you, while being humble that I'd love to ask you about this, that in life, sometimes you get so powerful that we start to think or the dealers of her own fate were not the dealers. God is the dealer Sometimes we have to be brought back down to earth to get perspective or what is really important when he meant by that. Would what did you learn from that experience? What would the way I interpret at the time in those were, very, very memorable words and it occurred nose down after picked up my father from arraignment I drove him down. I drove the car and my father in our very close and didn't say a word for the whole time. I think he was processing,

never won what was happening to him that I couldn't even imagine but actually think the bigger pain for him, because my father is such a committed person to the family is like. Did I let my family down? that I let my kids down and I do think he felt at that like his life, was over. He couldn't really see past what this challenge was gonna bring and if there would be a life for him after it psych see that he had a lot of fear and he really wasn't saying much and then I didn't know what to do, and so I just stood by him and stood close and no later than that that day her the next day he got up walking get ankle monitor for whatever reason the prosecutor with such a so aggressively flight risks where an ankle monitor they were very, very aggressive, a nasty and at the time my father was the biggest donor to Democrats. The prosecutor was republic in it was a very political thing. Damn and what happened is he was walking around the pull on. I just started walking with him, and he said to me in know Jared.

I've. Sometimes we get so powerful that we believe that, where the dealer since, but were not that, are gods. The dealer and we have to come down to earth understand like you said. So. What when I took that was at my father, with all his success had started to believe that debt, Be certain rules that apply to him, and I think that that's remit, steak. I think he had a lot of regret that he made the mistake again in my father very humble person he's very moral person. You know for me: with my humility. Might my brother and I joke that we give our quit for being here. We'll never went to being that's vans because every year you have a lot of progress in that endeavour and paying off, though now is Steve cohen, hopefully run a different trajectory, but the other thing also our mother in our mother really raced us to be very humble to be You know we had. We knew we had a lot, but every sunday morning my mom was their clipping coupons. The cereal weight in our house was based on

no is based on what was on sale, verses. What we like you know when we would have a problem with our teachers in school, and I say on teachers, like me, she'd say on that call them it's your job to make the teacher like you, and so my other gave us a lot of that. My father gave us a lot of the grounding and I think in that time my father was just real. Seeing that maybe he had gotten disconnected from the the grounding in the values and and began. I think he also accepted. Maybe he could have you no blamed others for acting in appropriately, but I respect the fact that he, took responsibility himself and said. I can't control the actions of other people. I can't control what they do is right and wrong. You just control my actions and as I, in the next journeys in my life and I I go to government I go to washington, I mean I, I even think through the the craziness of going from you know, visit father in a prison to ten years later sitting in the office in the white house. Next, the present

knighted states and, like I think, about that story, and that its Thank god could write, and I really believe that, after a lot of faith, because the lowest in the highs are both so extreme unbelievable that I feel Those low moments in some ways allowed me to keep my grounding and to understand what is truly important in life. For when I ended up going through those other moments. Your father was betrayed. Perhaps over money by siblings. Is there some deeper wisdom you can draw from that. Have you seen money or perhaps power cloud people's judgment? Luncheon hundred percent hunter is there some kind of optimistic thing you can take from that about human nature of hard? You escape that outing of judgment. When you talk him all leaders when you're talking about government even business

Imagine is a power dynamics of play, always will Sharing? is there a way to see the the humanity, not see the sort of will to power and the whole thing. Definitely you know mention about power money corrupting there's a great coat. I heard a friend of mine say is a guy Michael Harris who was one of the founders of death or records in you being interviewed recently. They asked him about what happened was shook night and his line was you know, money just makes you more of what you already are which I thought was a very elegant way of saying it, and I would see this time and time again in the white house, where you had. People were now given a lot of responsibility and power, and it to their head and they did the acted, very crazily, and down. Maybe it didn't act way that I thought was always conducive to the objective. So I think it's a very big problem that you have whether its

something that solvable, I think it's about having the right leaders in and hopefully for the leaders having good friends but I'm still friends the lot of the people. I interacted with in government and yet the number one I try to beat a to them is just a good friend. I try to be somebody who they can talk about things worth. I don't when trying to tell them what to do on different things are I know or or bare, and I think that that's a big things that people just need friends and they need conversation and if they have that, then fully that allows them to keep their head in the right place. I think there's a good place to ask one aspect of the fascinating work. You've done, which is on prison reform you take me to your journey of helping them a partisan bill, capacitors work here the reform in the white house in general. Made that happen. I hope make tat happen sure. So we passed a law called the first step act, which was the largest prison in criminal justice reform bill. That's been done

maybe in thirty forty fifty years in the u s, and so it would it. Basically, there was two things number one is it took the present system and it took a certain class of offenders and allowed them to come eligible for earlier release if they go through the certain trainings that will last have a lower probability of going back. So stepping back you look at the prison system, you say what's the purposes to punish. Is it the warehouse? Is it the rehabilitation? And I do think that you know where a country that believes in second chances, I saw first hand when Father was a client of the system, how innovation it was and how much better it could be, and you know when my father got out- we didn't run from that experience, he started hiring people from microsoft, island in and dead you're different presence into the camp, into a second chance, a programme which were very, very proud of doing and what we saw through our micro experience was that

if you give people mentorship. If given got job training a lot of people in ITALY, they have addiction issues and they can't find housing, and so People leave prison with a criminal record and their less likely to go back and integrated society without help from from from different institutions that can help them do that. So we model the reforms of what they did in texas in georgia and other states where they basically put a lot job training, alcohol addiction, treatment programmes in the prisons as a way to incentivize too. prisoners to work on themselves, whether there in order to allow them to, and our society has turned out to be very successful. So far. They just had a report that showed that at the general population. I said afore seven percent reset it recidivism rate, meaning that people who leave federal prison, half of them go back and people of have. in this programme only twelve percent of them go back, so I'd never

you're making me safer, because if people are gonna now get a job and enter society instead of committing future crimes, you're avoiding future crimes and number two new, giving people a second chance, at life, and so that was the first part of it. The second thing we did was there is a rule path in the nineties. I basically penalized a crack cocaine. a hundred times the penalty of white, regular cocaine was and I think alive, the motivations or people say in retrospect- was that crack is more of a black jug drug and cocaine was more of a white drug and so there is a really racial disparity in terms of what the application these sentences were so they. They then revise that get eighteen to wine and what we did in this bill. We allowed it to go retroactive to allow people who are in prison with sentences under the what we that was the racist law to be able to make an application to a judge in order to be dismissed news based on good behaviour,

they you are being rehabilitated and the fact that they would have a low probability of offending in the future, and so that was really the meat of it, and there was a couple of other things in there. We did as well, which were also quite good. So we did it and worked very closely with the Democrats republicans to do it at first. President trump was a little bit. let of it because he's a big, strong line or water supporter, but he made me work very hard to put together a coalition of republicans and democrats and law enforcement, we had to support from from the dead that that the policemen we had. The support from the east you and ultimately we were able to get it together and I was one thing. We ended up getting eighty seven votes in the senate. You know it. This was happened for me at a time others, while the russia investigation stuff, was still happening. New chief of staff came in John Kelly. He basics marginalized me and the operation, so I had kind of less stated a response abilities in the white house, and so for me, this effort became

one of my full time. Efforts along with negotiating the mexico trade deal and, along with the middle east effort, and the reason why that was great was because it didn't have a lot of support from the republic. caucus originally, and people thought there was no it would happen, so I really was able to The chief executive, the middle active the low executive, the intern and through that process, I've really in education and health Chris works on how to pass legislation. I was negotiating text, I was negotiating back and forth, and I built a lot of trust. can I deal with whether as a key jeffreys or such a rich man, that we built a lot of trust. We speak three times a day. These guys had my back. I did this, You again, I never thought they were suing our administration every day every other day on something, but for whatever reason we built to be able to work together, damn, and then

so with the real conservative groups, because there was a lot, a big part of the conservative base that felt like we should be giving people a second chance and, in addition, that this will keep our country safer and it will reduce the cost of what we spend on prisons, and so it was a great effort and has very, very proud that were able to get it done and a president trump how'd. You can convince the republicans so there were sceptical at first I were talking about leg, just cut from conversations gone out to lunch, just steamer back, Oh Jesus, what hand to hand combat meetings that you know the cool thing about this as everyone else as a I always get frustrated. When I hear lawmakers say: oh the senate is not what it used to be. Your congress isn't what it used to be. A things are broken today. I don't think that's true. I think you know going through the process. I think that our founders were were totally genius in the way that they desire our system of government and what I saw as you just have to work it so one knows the power of their vote. Some would give it may easily someone

give it to me easily. Some were traded for other things. Some would withhold it because they were pissed about other things and it was just hand to hand combat. So I was just making calls using the fallen go and work in the halls, gonna lunches hosting dinners at my house, it was just there was enough stop lobbying effort and by the way it is also. Indicating issues in making people feel like they were heard here there are issues and then try to find solutions that you don't put something ended and tips offer. You lose. You know, coalition, so he was really a balancing act. Boozer an amazing, hang in. There are very closely with a van jones and jessica jackson, who also Gabriel help and the left undone and it was an amazing thing. Had a great team to say you met many importance of trust at the very beginning of the conversation from the outsider perspective. Just that may be a dark question which is like how much trust is there in washington are haha? How much did the flip side of that? How much backs that

is there: can you form like long term relationships with people. On a basic human level were, You know you're not going to be betrayed screwed over manipulated for again go back to the old money and power tat. The answer is yes, and the answer is no So I made some incredible friends: lifelong friends. Through my time in Washington. but the way I I think about it from politics, thinking geopolitics as well as I would say that politician. I really don't have friends, politicians have interests as long as you kind of follow that rule. You should be ought to know had a rate where your relationship with the given person falls in the spectrum, but I do think I was the exception. I did make some tremendous friends and again go back to what I said about negotiation where no one year. In a situation where

is really nothing in it for any of you personally, but you're in a fox hunting, heather, and nobody in washington could get anything done by themselves. She of people coming from all different backgrounds, all different experiences, all different geographies coming together, agreeing on an objective, creating a plan and then every day, rowing together in order to get it done, it's a beautiful thing and you really learn what people are bowed and so, when you go through an experience like that, you whose enough for themselves you learn whose enough for the cause and yet for every you know thing you read by the press. Fight I had with somebody, because we were at odds in I've about a hundred people who have become lifelong friends b. I respect the way that when we were their fire together they got better, they are competent and they were or to serve the right reason- and so I guess, three, yes, it is it is. It is possible. You have to be careful because there are a lot of mercurial people- dare I say the politicians are like gladiators. I didn't

much respect for politicians till I got there. But if you think about it, everyone is gotta. Congressional either a senate seat. There's twenty five people back at home, want their job, we think they're, smarter than them who are trying to back at them, and so I would say that the critical dynamic. It's like in the private sector. you're standing on flat ground. You choose which fights you take on when you take them on how you fight them in politics, it's like yours adding on a ball, and would you have to really as is that there's maybe like ten things you have to do, but there's a potential cost to taking on each. one that might destabilize you. You fall off the ball and then you lose your opportunity to pursue those. You have to always be kind of marking everything to market and going through your calculations to make sure you can accomplish what you want do without falling off the ball and losing your opportunity to make a difference. I guess people like power and I just feel like to be a good politician who should be willing, like good meaning,

good for humanity belonging to let go of power and try Do the right thing. If there's somebody back home that does manipulative staff screws you over and takes power from you. It's okay. I feel like that kind of power, Humility is required to be a great leader, and I feel like that section. Good way to have long term power because com has a viral aspect to just be doing good by others. I feel like is I'd like to say that's true lacks. I think it's just way more complicated. Me look what happened this week with with Kevin Mccarthy right. He did what he thought was morally right. He thought near he did, a partisan deal. He was told that now they would have his back and and the moment things got tough, they they cut him loose. So again, I don't know if that's that's, if that was the right thing or the wrong

We have also seen leaders on the other and say I'm gonna do things that are short term more selfish, but the way they justify to themselves is to say I believe that myself staying in power is existential to the greater good, so I will do things that may be are not in the greater good. Now because I believe that my maintaining power is- and so it's it's complicated in an idealized world- I'd love to believe that's the case, but it just way more complicated than that. I wish it wasn't, but it is there may add. Ideas wished presumed out people and parties got a baton just ask themselves what we are doing this for. I like. Sometimes you get like a little bit lost in a game of it. If you zoom mile, you realize, like integrity, is way more important than michael little gains and money. I look in power in the long term,

Look yourself in the mere at the end of the day, and also how history remembers you I just feel like people do some. Stuff when they're like in the moment they are losing power, they try to hold on All too hard, This is when this one they can do really dark things like bring out the worst in themselves, As is sad to see- and I wish to resign- kind of machinery of government would inspire people to be their vessels in their last days or civil war cells. But when that system invented dinner. Yo yo share with you what it is, but it's a look I let me go another way to frame it, which is and this was kind of their the revelation we spoke before about your kind of I was getting my butt kicked by the rush investigation and all the different areas, but kind of the basic framework I looked at was, I said. Ok, this all feels tough, but I said the games, the game. The games been here in a way longer.

Way before I came and old be here way long after I leave, and so I have two choices. I can complain that the games- tough, it's not fair, it's not moral right go and I can try to play the game as hard as possible and I think that there's two different things right. You have p who are willing to kind of sit in the stands in their willing to yell at the players are berber berber berber make their there their points known or you. People are one suit up again the arena and go play, and I have a lot of respect for the people who who sit up and go play and against some of em you I wish they would play for different means, but the fact that their willing to put their name on the ballot, make the sacrifice and go put on the facts and get hit and hit others I think that you need those people. I wish more people who had maybe the moral wiring that you discussed would be putting on. How did it go into play? Cause tart tart?

I agree with you. I just would love to fix the aspect of the the russia collusion accusation, the virality, the power that that's a really discouraging thing for for people. Maybe it's the way it has to be, but is it seems like a disincentive to people to participate. It is but Give you again up an optimistic side of it is that you know what you're seeing now is social media. I do think with what actually happening it. Acts. There is now more of a reversion towards more egalitarian right and it would be a gal, egalitarian ism of information, and so for many, Here's the media, publications where the gate holders they were. The gatekeepers and then you had these social media companies that grew, they became so powerful. But then they were tilting the scales why they were doing it. You know we can go to long explanations for that. But if there truly is it real forum

in the democratization of information than you would think that the marketplace of ideas would surface the real ones and discredit the non real, real ones, and I think that as a society we're starting to kind of come to grips with the fact that the power- dynamic is changing and that some of these institutions that we used to have a lot of faith in don't deserve our faith in some of them in a well actually reform, and maybe we are in our faith, so I think that their there there could be an optimistic tone agenda, There's a trump. I think that you know he was an outsider and you know he represented something that was existential for this to the system. Right. You think about for the thirty years before, you either part of the Clinton dynasty or the bush dynasty. I think a lot of people in the country felt like that whole class. You weren't wretcheder pollution, wasn't representing them, and trump represented a true outsider to that system. And I do think that as he went in there, there is a lot of norms that were broken to try to stop him from.

changing the traditional power structure. So I think that work time where maybe there will be an optimistic breakthrough. Were you? have institutions that will allow for a lot more transparency in to what truth really is I'd love to go back talking about the middle east there. So many interesting components to this must talk about saudi Arabia and, first, let me ask you about an bs mohammed by Salman conference, so you ve got to know very well. He become friends with him. What you like as a human being just a basic human level. Would you like to for the listeners mohammed been salmon is now the crown prince of saudi arabia. He has risen to the position of the law couple of years and has been achieved his reformer for the country he's gone in and he's really modernize the economy. He sees put a lot more investment into the country, he's more

Lies the religious police and he's really done a good job to bring more the station. A lot of reform so has been a great reformer. What he's like, as a person is he's a very high energy he's, got dad tremendous candle power very, very smart, incredibly well read when he was younger. His father would would give a book a week and make him report on it and on the weekend He was trained as a as a leader and as a politician I really by his father, he's not western educated, so he grew up in this, culture and he's a real saudi nationalist. He loves their history. Loved their heritage has aspired understanding of of the tribal nature of the region and you know his father was actually known to be a tremendous politician, so when he was governor of Riyadh people who I speak to today about him say that if they had a fall

and he would have won in a landslide this. Every time somebody went to the hospital, he was the first person to call at any time there was a funeral. He was. The first person to show up is a very, very beloved leader and I've been some on. He was a business man before he got into the crown prince, so he thinks really with a bit It's mindset about how he runs the country and he's broad different mindset and energy to the middle east, one thing up. They'll say: maybe that comes to mind here- is that we're early on talking with him about all the different initiatives use taking on he's, building a big city cadmium in in the desert, in a place where there really was nothing on the red sea and a lot of people are criticised. the ambition of the plan and I was sitting with him one night I said you know why were you taken on all these things that you ve got a lot of different programmes? But you know what most

petitions do as they set lower expectations, and then they exceed the expectations and he looked at me without hesitation. He says Jared, you know the way I look at it is that in five years from now, if I said five goals and I chee five goals of achieve five things, if I said a hundred goals- and I fail at fifty of them than five years- help accomplish fifty things, and so it's a very different mind set as a leader. The way I got to work with him was a saudi arabia was a big topic. in the campaign. President trump was basically saying during the campaign that you know we're gonna know they've got to pay for their fair share, which they haven't been a great partner in in the region, is very critical of saudi and then during the transition. I was asked by several friends to meet with a representative of saudi arabia. I don't want meat samuel. I came over and I met and they said what we want to make changes. I suppose you have to make changes to a how you treat women than women. Dry the guardianship laws, as you gotta, start working with Israel.

yeah, you have to be paying more of your fair share and you have to be you know, stopping the wahhabi islam and that that's being spread again. I'd no knowledge. These were just kind of the traditional talking went about saudi arabia, so the guy who is with basic- said is a guy fodder tunes. He was a very respected minister there he says Geraghty says you know You don't know much about saudi arabia said no, and I dont do just really what I really what I can have been told her. What I read- and he says- ok, let me let me do this, we want, great allies with america. We we have traditionally been great allies with america. Can I come back you with the proposed, well on ways that we can make progress on all of the different areas where we have joint interests and keep a mind at that point in time. The middle east was a mess and probably the single biggest issue we had after isis was the I logical battle. If you remember in two thousand sixteen, there was the pulse nightclub, Meeting in orlando, you, the san bernardino, shooting and people are being rather lies in line with the extra

madame and then there was a lot of crimes that were being there are happening. Because of that I was a big topic in the campaign and so that, when I was thinking about you, talk differ generals in what capabilities the? U s had really combat the extremism, The ideological battle we realize was that saudi arabia is the custodian of the two holiest sites in Islam, the meca medina, that that would be the best partner to work with if they were willing to. But for years really hadn't been willing to kind of lean into this fight. So as it should give up proposals, they come back. You propose in this had look. If you make press trumps first trip to saudi arabia. We will do all these different things will link our military spending and cooperation will counteract the terror financing, unbelievable layer. So I took the posts to the national then was general flynn. I said if saudi raby it did these things. Would this be considered a bigger, unbelievable

we'll never happen. I well they're telling me they want to do these things. Get I having no foreign policy experience, I'm just saying I've got somebody tell me they want to do it and that's kind of where we started again to office thing much more about it, and then I think it was like a baby. A month in president trump has a call. With king solomon, and before that, when the oval office and the presence basely saying well view. This is what we want to go through and I have a secretary madness and sector tiller since the minister of defence and the secretary of state basically saying you have to deal with ambien and be and this is the guy Who'S- been our partner for all these years, he's the head of intelligence and has been a great partner. So all these been a great partner, then why do we have all these problems that you guys are complaining about with saudi? I said I've been told that we have this proposal from mbs who's, the deputy crown prince and that's who we should be dealing with on this and so phone call starts and present

listen to both of us and on a phone call with king solomon. Depressed from says: ok, we'll go through all these things. These are the things we want to get done as well. Who should we deal with and cakes amounts is a deal with my son, the deputy crown prince mp, us. ass, a present from send the phone haven't deal with Jarrett, because I think he knew that if you put it with the other guys they were not believers in what he had the ability to. and that's how I got assigned to work with him. I get back to my off after having email from him spoke them for the first time and now went to work again, you know a lot of people are betting against that trip. They thought it was gonna, be successful and even better against him, and he's been underestimated, but he's been doing an incredible job and the whole middle east is different today, as if the work that he's done, maybe it's instructive to go to metal journey that you went on from, like the talking points, the basic narratives than the very,

you're, talking point understanding of saudi arabia to making a human connection with em, bs and making the plaza connection is. he puzzled to solve problems. It was their journey like. Why was it so difficult to take for others, and why were you effective and being ever take pleasure in yourself Maybe some of it came from my inexperience thumb but I desire to listen and hear people. So can I had this proposal. I was told that all these things were good. then we're trying to schedule this trip and the national security. Also calls a meeting where we're in the situation room and we have a homeland security secretary of defense sector estate. Everyone saying this is going to be a disaster. said you know. If we go to saudi arabia, the saudis never keep their promises and our secretary of state at the time was gentlemen. Name rex, tiller syn. Been the ceo of acts, so he dealt with all these play. People very extensively and basis

In my experience the saudis welcome through and jared you don't you're doing, you're wasting your time. I basically was at a point where I said: look eyes but they're saying they want to do all these things shouldn't we at least give him a chance to try to do it like. Why do we want to predetermine there there their direction by not giving them a chance to change just because things in the past have gone the way you want them, to that doesn't mean they can't go that way in the future. So we fought the battle they basely deferred. And let me go through with it, but when I do the planning beatings for the trip, nobody would show up because they all thought can be an absolute disaster and by the way they pro we weren't wrong to think that I'd never plan to foreign trip before and I'd never done any foreign policy before so during the planning. Hats, can be ass almost every day, not go through all the different details in the things that I would be coming up and said: look I really need to get these things in writing. He sent over a guy doktor, massage alive, on whose

mendous diplomat for them, and it came to washington stay for three weeks and we work through all the different details of what we needed and we ended up coming to an arrangement of what it should be. So I think about now in retrospect, why I was so focused on getting things like this done and why I even believed that they could be possible, but the sir, is this really? The people I was talking to on the other end were telling me that things were possible and so just because they had been done before and just because others around me didn't believe that they could be done. I wasn't willing to just say: well, let's not try. It just seems like that cynicism. That too, silver is paralyzing, and now you send me a greater say from a polygram, I'm a big fan of disney. He explains a lot of your success. That is called how to do great work and people should definitely before I say as a few things I could read from it.

Some quotes. Having new ideas is a strange game because it usually consist of seeing things that were right under your nose. What you ve seen it your idea does the seem obvious. Why did no one think of this before seeing something obvious, sounds easy and yet empirically having new ideas is hard and take the step she took seem trivial, and yet nobody was taken them or these in the past, the one successful those successes you ve had were as simple as essentially pick up the phone or try

and there's a lot of interesting things here. To talk about this aspect of doing this seemingly simple that seems to be so hard to do it as Paul describes, requires a willingness to break rules. There are two ways to be comfortable breaking rules to enjoy breaking them and to be indifferent to them with an interesting distinction. I call these two cases being aggressively and passively independent minded. So again, that's two. you're breaking the rules of be indifferent to the rules or the aggressively independent minded are the naughty ones. Rules, don't merely fail to stop them. Breaking rules gives them additional energy. For this sort of person delight at the sheer audacity of project, sometimes supplies enough at, Commissioner, I to get started the other way to break the rules, not to care about them at all or perhaps even know they exist. This is why novices and outsiders often make new discoveries, their ignorance of a field. Ignorance, maybe quotes,

The assumptions act as a source of temporary passive, independent mindedness ass bees also seem to have a kind of immunity to virtual beliefs? Several I know say that this helps them to have new ideas, so the aggressive and the passive is such an interesting way of looking at it, and perhaps some aspect of this, at least in the story. You told us some passive aspect where you are like Niven, acknowledging not even carrying that there is rules just color asking the simple question and taken simple action. I think that is fine. That was an essay red and we're doing just a snap out of it, but I would encourage anyone listening to go and find it and read the entire thing, because it's something It really spoke to me, as I was transitioning into my new career now, and I just loved it, but when we were talking about why certain people who don't have traditional,

Qualifications are able to come in and do incredible, work and solve complex problems. It baby Think of that essay, which is why shared it, and I I think that, in the context of the work that I was doing here, perhaps not having the historical context became an advantage and obviously went back and then tried to study it. But if you go into a problem, I always find that, especially in the political realm. My favorite political issues are ones where their contrary and by being obvious- and you too sometimes they feel variant. Would have say so. You take them on, there's always a lotta resistance. When you go against something, that's been accepted as the way the you're supposed to do things and I came to learn over the course of my time in government that when every one

agreeing with what I was doing. Then it actually made me more nervous because I felt like you have these problems. They haven't been solved for a long time and then, if you take the same approach as others, you're going to fail just like they did so taking a different approach, doesn't mean you're going to succeed, but at least if you fail you're going to fail in an original way, and so I did like this a lot, and I think that you know what I saw with people who are very good at Things done that hadn't been done before were people who came with different qualifications, different perspectives, and they came in and really work the problem in a traditional ways. so, I think, in the Middle EAST. I came in with a very different approach than people before me, not because came and deliberately trying to do it differently? But because I came in trying to list and understand from people why the problem has been solved and then think from first principles, perspective on. What's the right perspective

aid not based on what happened fifty years ago were not based on what somebody's feelings who were hurt, but what's the right thing to make people's lives better to make the world a safer and more prosperous place tomorrow, Again, now go back empty as for little bit from the person to the vision, there's something called vision. Twenty thirty about his vision for saudi arabia in the future can be look from his perspective. What is is vision for the region, sure in this way we were talking before about how we Leaders would set big audacious goals and take on big things. Well, that's what he did with fish and twenty thirty when he was young and again. This is something that was derided and a lot of people were very skeptical of it, but the people actually picked up and read. It said this a very thoughtful plan that is very achievable, so he studied his country and said: what's our place in the world. What are our advantages? What are our disadvantages and then he said publicly

p eyes that he wanted to hold his country to and then put in place plans in committees and really worked hard to push things in that direction, which is pretty remarkable I think that is something when I saw it. I thought it was very refreshing. I said wait in america. Why don't we have you no set goals? Why don't we have cape eyes and I do think that it something that most countries have not all countries should have rights My favorite quotes was from the house in wonderland, where the the check, a cat says, if you don't know where you're going, it doesn't matter which path you take and so I think that that something that really help set them on a good path and they ve been very successful with it at one thinks he told me about putting them gather was he said, you know my father's generation. They created this country from almost nothing. They came here we're a poor country. They were bedouins in the desert and then they look back and what they ve done over fifty years, and they say it's actually remarkable. He set his generate they come in, they say were very grateful for everything. That's been done to date.

We have so much opportunity that were not taking advice. A job, and so your he's now in power next generation to be ambitious and think big and grow with it. What that means for his vision for the middle east is that you know that did the general architecture. that should exist now. There's excitement in the discussions with Israel. That of advanced was the general view of what we thought from a trump perspective should the new middle east, is having an economic can scarcely corded corridor. All the way from Haifa, tough moose got from a Israel were basically you go through and if you can create as a security area where people can- if you know free of fear of of terrorism and of conflict, the middle EAST for the last twenty years, has been a sinkhole for for for for arms, for death or for terrorism. It's been, you know awful. It's been a big national security threat for america, a big a place where are you are our treasure is gone. We ve had a lot of our. Are young

using american soldiers killed in action there and die in the same thing for the countries as well. So we can create a a security architecture for that region and that we can create economic integration between all the different countries, The amount of innovation happening in Israel is unbelievable. Think of it like silken valleys, not connected to the rest of california give a very young population, a very digital savvy population. You have a lot of resources, and so, if you can get that whole set, that potential forward is unbelievable. I I do think that that's his ultimate vision is to come a really strong country economically and then to become a place where you could be funding advancements in science, advancement and humanity, investments in artificial intelligence and think about ways to be a positive influence in the world so difficult question. One big source of tension in the united states in society is the case of jamaica shaggy.

wondering if you can comment, I would I be us said about it to you. He spoken to him about it and what embassy said about a publicly sixty minutes and after so what he said to me This was no different than what he ultimately set on sixty minutes, which was in office as somebody helping led this country, I bear responsibility and death and I'm gonna make sure that those who were involved are brought to justice and I'm gonna make it. That does that we put in place reforms to make sure things like this don't happen again. It was horrible situation that occurred. What I saw from him after that Just a doubling and tripling down on on deposit things he was doing, figure out ways to kind of continue to modernize society build opportunity in the kingdom. To continue to be a better ally to all the different countries that wanted to be aligned with them.

One thing I learned from this case is how one particular situation a tragedy, can destroy so much progress and the possibility of progress and and the possibility of connection between the bridges that are built between different nations and how narratives around that can take off and tax system on time to repair and you, to this in the middle east, with Israel so on how the history, the narrative, the stories they they kind Have this momentum that so hard to break We have new leaders, new blood, new new ideas that come in

and it is just sad to see that yes, this tragedy happens, but it doesn't mean that you can't make progress or if you have cut lessons from there, just how much of a dramatic impact it had on creating tension between the united states and sought in general in the Middle east, like them there some outside is not a friend but is against the ideals and the values of the united states, so it did deafening crate. massive tension, and it became a very high profile action that actually overshadowed a lot of the good work that is being done in the region and a lot of the progress we are making? But when you think about this, or you think about the other issues that we ve gone through today, I think, the general framework that I always try to approach things with this. You can't change what happened yesterday

you can only learned from it and then you change? Had you deal with tomorrow and when I think about, the people in power, what do I hope that their spending there too, Focused on number two basic things number one is: how do I could in a safety and security for, for my people,. Than infer for the world? And then how do I give people the opportunity to live a better life and so on things like this then obviously you know there are certainly, actions that are appropriate. But ultimately, you have to think through how do you not allow the paradigm that you're creating in the world to lead to worse outcomes than would happen otherwise and so when I think about foreign policy in general, one of the differences between foreign policy and business, that in business, the conclusion of a problem said: you finish a deal you either have you know a company or property our? If you sell it, you have less to do and and and more capital, hopefully but successful right in a political deal.

It's always about paradigm. So the end of a problem set is always the beginning of a new paradigm and you're, always thinking through How do you create an environment that leads to, hopefully the best amount of positive outcomes that could her first is creating a paradigm that will lead to negative outcome. So no bad things happen in a lot in the world and you have to make sure that when those happen you people are held accountable for it, but you I don't want to make sure that, in the process of making sure that there is a count ability for these actions, you don't set a lot of progress that the world is making back. That will lead to worse off situation for many more people. If we can go back to the incredible work with Abraham accords in Israel, in the middle east? First, the big question about peace. Why is it so difficult to achieve peace

Are the world between Israel and palestine and between Israel and the other countries in the Middle EAST or any sort of peace like agreements? If I'd give you them, simple answer. I would say that it structural and if you go back to the incentive structure of different leaders, this whole peace process between Israel and and the palestinians and again gun criticized for saying this, but it's what I believe some gonna say it is that the incentive structure was all wrong and when I went before the united nations security council to discuss the peace plan that I propose, which again was more of an operational plan and as a pragmatic plan, it was over a hundred eighty pages in detail and paul in politics. People don't like putting forward detail because it just gets a lot of places for you to get sized on nobody actually criticized the detail, my plan, they just criticised the fact that it was coming from us and didn't want to debate the merits of the operational peace, So I created a slide where I showed from

so accords till the I was there all the different peace discussions. I put a dove in the slide for those and then I put a tanker every time there of works, or so we skirmishes between hamas and hezbollah on and then the palestinians and then two lines they both went from the bottom of the page. All the way up like this one lines, was israeli settlements, so every time a negotiation failed, Israel was able to get more land and every then the other one was money to the palestinians. I said every time negotiations failed. The palestinians would get more money. The problem with that money, though, was that it wasn't went to the people who know a lot. Some of it would make it's way down, but most of it was going to the politicians yet leadership of the palestinians. Who was basically, I think he that poisoned like the sixteenth year of a four year, I'm so wasn't democratically elected and a lot of what try to show was that there was no. of law. There was no judicial system there were no property rights and there was no up

unity or hope for the people to live a better life, and so all of the on voice to date were basically train to go and do the same things and and I got massively criticized by all the previous on voice for not doing it this the way they did, but I thought the problem structurally just didn't make sense, and so I felt like the incentive structure was all wrong and I took a different approach and so what's was the different approach? I started writing down document. These are the no eleven issues, but there's really only three issues. That matter, I said just tell me what you think, the compromises that you think the other side could live with, that you would accept, and it was very hard to get them talking about it all. You have to go back to nineteen. Seventy two! You go back to ninety two. You have to go back to to the One you've got to get that and I was just like. I don't need a headache and arrow need a history lesson just just. I want a very simple thing here today in two thousand and seventeen. What's the outcome that you would accept and I was dealing with their their their negotiate

or is there back channel secret negotiators their double secretly isolate this whole thing is like it's a process created where nobody wants to talk about the actual solution. So coming from the business world. I said. Let me just write down a proposed solution that I think is fair and let me have it I'd react like don't tell me about theoretical things. Like tell me, I want, move, the line from here here I want to change this words. I tried to make it much more tactical, and what I realized was like the palestinians. They worked so hard to get the arab world to stay with the line of the air peace initiative and is oak, went back and I read the urban initiative, it was ten lines and it didn't have any detail. So is a concept, and so they liked at concept because it allowed them to reject everything they kept the more money you mean Bibi Netanyahu runs one of the most incredible these in the world who runs incredible superpower military, for the size of their country?

fly to washington to meet us and he'd be taking a commercial airplane abbas who a refugee organization, refugee group right that claims. you don't have a state they get, dollars an eight year, eight every year from the global community would fly. sixty million dollar boeing, Bb J. So the whole thing was just very corrupt and off, and I do think that that's why it, I dont think people were incentivize to solve it to be What do you think an actual plan on their part? If you can just before talking about it, Abraham accords. If there is a peace plan that works in Israel and palestine was, it really looks like you have to separated into two different issues, and I think that that's it see how we came to the abraham accords. Is that you know I I I I was. I tell the story burke and as one of my favorite experiences would during my time in diplomacy, where I went to meet whistle tongue, caboose, the sultan of a man and we fly out there because heat

at a secret meeting with bb, and I thought maybe he was open to normalizing with Israel so after he meets with Bibi. He calls me and says I want you to come see me, so I go over to see him and if the guy tell the story, it was a crazy night and all these different areas. But when I was talking to him- and he basically says to me- I feel badly for the palestinian people that they carry with them. The burden of the muslim world and that line just like stuck with me and a couple days later, Thinking about it, I said: wait a minute who elected the palestinian people to read and the muslim world on the along the mosque, and so The reason why I felt like it had never been solved was was a riddle aid that I believed was designed to not be solved but be you are conflicting. Two separate issues you at the issue between Israel, and then the muslim world which really was the issue of the Al Aqsa mosque, and then you had just a territorial dispute which throughout history you have lots of tears.

real dispute in the usually resolved in different ways. So, if you go back to these really ask issue. There's just a couple components: you need to solve number one is territorial continuity right. You need to figure out. Where do you draw the lines and that something that you know you can talk about what people, or owed seventy years ago, but it's much more productive to say this is what you can make work today right and that's kind of what we did. I bay we literally spent months and months drawing a map, and we put something out pride change, a couple of lines here and there, but by and large it was a very pragmatic solution that I think could work and I think it could work for the safety and security of Israel, which was number one so first, she was drawing a map. Second issue is security and Israel, and again this is one issue. We were incredibly sympathetic with Israel, which is you can expect. You know a prime minister of his how to make a deal or he's gonna make us people less secure them before. So we worked very closely I'm on a security apparatus, we laid something out that I think, would keep the whole area safer.

It would have major Israel was safe and also keep the past. Nay, she saved need security. Number three was the religious sites. and that was one that was actually always made much more complex. by people oxfam ass, because you basically have rommel Sharif, which is the place where the mosque was built in the seventh eighth century. But Lee was where the holy of holies were in the beta make dash for the jewish people. So then, you are compounded by the fact that you have all the christian wholly sites in Jerusalem. It's a city that should be bringing every together, but in fact has become a place where you You know wars and and and and and hatred and a lot of different conflicts at every. Because of it. But what I that was instead of fighting over concepts of sovereignty, which is interesting. How to the notion that this wasn't really the big issue I be set just operational Can we just make it simple: let everyone com and be able to worship as long as their being able to worship peacefully. So that's really the contours of it and what the palestinians have done is the kind of defeat

did from a lot of their own shortcomings and allowed the arab leaders did. That is well kind of in the pre abraham accord days a kind of allowing this issue to be so prevalent so one thing I'll say: on the palestinians is that we know what we tried to do by lang added plan was we said: okay, what are the reasons why the palestinian people are not having the lies that they deserve I'll? Give you a couple things one is I studied the economies of Jordan, west bank Egypt. Morocco at this is, you know, never smile, thousand and nineteen, but was interesting, was the gdp per capita of somebody living in the west bank was actually the same as jordan and of that more than somebody living in Egypt and the debt to gdp, that the palestinians had was like thirty forty percent compared to Egypt, which is at least- hundred and thirty percent in Jordan, which is at a hundred and ten percent and lebanon, was set at two hundred percent and so near. You

situation where a lot of this stuff didn't make sense. But if you draw lines create institutions were palestinian, people can now feel like they have property. Its and have ownership over their place and let the money flow passed a leader ranks to the people. Let them have jobs at them of opportunity, and then let all muslims from throughout the world have access to the mosque and Israel, making sure that they can control security, which I think the Jordanians and a lot of others want Israel to to have strong. You know security control there to prevent the radicals and the extremists from coming. You could have peace, there very easily said lots of things to say, you're one is just to emphasise: alas, the mask says- is holy place, and this is something In our conversations, and in my own travels, I seen the importance of serve frictionless access

to those sites from the entire you, the muslim world, and that's what abraham. According to big leaps on a case of water, What a little bit more that's kind of religious component that the a dignity in the religious practice and faith, on it. But then the other thing you mentioned so warm simply, which is you, have money flow pass. The leadership ranks. How do you have money flow? Pass? A leadership ranks in in palestine so make sure that the money that's invested in palestine, the west bank yes to the people. So to date, all of the aid that's been given to the palestinians has been an entitlement. It's not conditions based its always just we give the money and there's no expectations faces but you make the aid conditions base you fight for transparency. You do through institutions other than the p a or you put reformers into

p that will allow it to go down that way, Pierre being there what's the deal already yet, which is the leadership it's not hard to do? It just takes people who actually want to do it, but I think that the mindset of The international community has not been let solve this problem. It's like throw a bit of money. The monies Nova came, let's put a little novocaine on the problem and, let's not have to deal with it, but nobody's ever said. Oh, let's do an accounting of the twenty billion where's. We ve given them and see how many jobs is done and where it's gone, that just hasn't happened again. It's it's Finally, corrupt organisation on raw. You think about the post world war, to dynamic, you had a lot of refugees, my grandparents refugees, post world or to every other refugee class been resettled- and you only have one permanent refugee organization ever created? Why was this done? It was done to perpetuate the conflict. that a lot of arab leaders could basically deflect from allowed the shortcomings at home, and so I think for is leave you all. These things is existential devalue, their safety. They ve been under attack for a long time. I do think, having a deal

where we can say had a you, the jews and muslims chris come together. I think king Abdullah from jordan spinning. Credible custodian for the mosque. I think everyone, in my travels, recognise that he's the right guy for that that the king of Jordan should be the custodian of of the mosque. We. Have some kind of framework to make chauvinist access the more countries that have diplomatic relations with Israel, the moor muslims and arabs that should be able to common and visit and buy them. The more you had these normalization think about without due to the economy of the west bank. Where they'll have you no great hotels, hospitality? Tremendous tourism industry, because of all the christian muslim and which wholly sites that they have their so did there's a lot of it. so there we just have to get unstuck, and I believe that its, possible. If the leaders want to make tomorrow better that they can and unfortunately The people who suffer the most are really are just the palestinian people, and I think that

you know in Gaza, their hostages, to Tom and and in the west bank there just there just held back because their leadership just. he's afraid or per or to self interested to give them the what to change their paradigm and pursue the potential what they have and by the way, it's an incredibly well educated population. It's it's an incredibly the whole population and the rain. Next, Israel, where the economy they need everything, and so the potential should be incredible if you can just move some of these pieces, but down again up, there's still a lot of ocean and hatred. You have to work through as well, but I do believe that, not going to solve that by litigating the past you're only going to solve that by creating. exciting paradigm for the future and getting every to buy yen and then move towards that maybe increase the chance of being able to establish an economy, were the entrepreneurs can flourish and was bank and so on in palestine

once the there and you put across the arab world is normalized. So so one thing on which is very interesting as when I got into my job and in and the middle east or the conventional thinkers said to me, the separation in the muslim world is between the scene. It soon he's in the shias and that's really the big divide and, as I was too, having I didn't, think there was any divide in that regard. divide that I saw was between leaders who wanted to give a better opportunity for their people and economic reforms, an opportunity and leader she wanted to use religion or fear to keep stronghold on power, and so, if you think about who's, not create the opportunity for their people is that steady and leadership and uranium leadership and all the other air countries were focused on. How do we give opportunity for people to live a better life and there is a big foundation on which that framework can succeed, which I think

is the in general, the idea, arab israeli normalization. So that's where Abram accords come in. You tell the story of that term. So it's an amazing thing and I sit here to day. You know somebody not government, and in every day I see another flight that goes between or I see you know an israeli student students studying at a university Dubai or a new synagogue, opening up in another, I'll, be it it just give me such or bahrain guest. such tremendous, a pride to see all of the progress that's been made, how it occurred and add part of why read the book was to put this down for, for history sake, to go through of the friend intentional unintentional, circumstantial things that occurred its might. We left government there's a lot of people saying well. This is why I do that. I said I was kind of that. The middle of It- and I could even perfectly article- wide happened because it was it. He was in

pollution of a lot of things, and I hope that we made peace on plan see, but only because we went through the alphabet three times then get every letter, and by the time we didn't give up. going, and we got it done it. Maybe this is a good. Please tell us that back and say, What is arab israeli normalization? What is the state of things boy who may not be aware, before the progress made, that's pry the best place to start. So what we did is we made a pc between Israel and the united arab emirates and then israel and bahrain. Then we did a deal with Israel in sudan than Israel. And Kosovo, Israel. Morocco were basically countries, it didn't recognize each other before ended, recognise each other All these were muslim majority countries and getting them to integrate with Israel was a very big thing,

additional thinking had always been was that muslim arab countries would not make peace with Israel until the israeli palestinian issue was solved and what we re able to do a separate the issues and then make these. Make these connections which are leading to amazing interaction between jews and muslims. So when I think about kind of obviously of now no security. You have emotional benefits from these things, but that the single biggest benefit that I've seen from the accords is that if you were an arab muslim and you were, and you were willing to say positive things, but Israel or the Jews before this came out. You had been Firstly, attacked by the media or the hordes of influencers or thee extremists in these different countries with this did, was it brought out into the public the fact

Jews and muslims can be together and they can be respectful, they can have meals together and that the cultures can live together in peace. So just telling us. it's like a once subtle and in sense like transformative. So Normalization means he allowed to travel for placed the other that has a ripple effect. They. You can now start talking, a little bit more accepting way. He could start integrating travel in communicating do business with socializing, so a cultures mix of conversations makes all of this in it. This can, as a ripple effect on the the basic, action between these. Previously disparate worlds are enough. There's a nice way

the kind of make clear why these agreements have such a transformative effect most pushing the long term, I would see the simplest form is just a mindset. And it's almost like your taught all your life. Were enemies. Are we can't be friends with that tribe on the other side of the fence? and then, like one day the leaders gap and say no, it's ok now and is never an issue between the people. The people were just talk. Different things and they were separated from each other. But again one of the things said I respect about the work, you do? Is you bill the power of conversation and the power of human interaction, and you know these issues and an gaps between us feel so big when we think about them when we are told about them when we read about them, but we go and sit with each other hopperson, we realise. Maybe we have a lot more in common than we had that divides us. For me, what I've seen about it? That's made the biggest differences, I've seen people who wouldn't have

ability to be together, be together and that's forming a nucleus of togetherness which is a restoration? So you think about modern Middle east from die from post holocaust to now again in nineteen The aid. After did that that war of independence, you at you living in a bag in cairo. Then they became anti jewish that they then expelled. All of the Jews from all these capitals of the city so think about the jewish history in Baghdad, I mean, I think the talmud was written in Baghdad. It was a place where, in Babylon, where the jewish people thrived, I think in fact Seventy bc, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem he took about ten thousand jews, act with him to Babylon, because he thought it'd be good for his economy, and during that that that place, the Jews actually flourished and had a good life? They are so four thousand years before the second world war

The jews and muslims lived very peacefully together. So people say that what we're doing is is an aberration. I actually think it's not an aberration. I think it's actually a return to the time where people can if, together, culturally, and so this is to begin. of the end of the arab israeli conflict and it's the beginning of togetherness, which again, you think about how much war, how much provocation, how much terrorism been made in the name of of of religious conflict. This is, I think, the start of the process of religious respect and understanding. We ve talked about you being attacked in the press for them. some collusion and other topics. What most recent set of attacks comes on the topic of sound public investment fund giving two billion dollars to your investment firm after you left government. So that includes a one point to five percent said management fee of twenty five million dollars a year can respond to these recent setbacks, sure so left government.

we were for four years. I yeah it was a very action packed time. That's. Why wrote the book I wanted to put down all those experiences I started. Thinking like what do I want to do next right In my previous career, I've been in real estate. I I'd worth my brother on some technology, businesses, it started. And then I am gone to governments. I can I had a career shift right in my previous career obvious. It was very successful how the new york times, but they violated they publish my financial. Financial statements. They should I make my fifty million dollars a year in the private sector before went to government when two government- and I know I volunteer- and take a salary. I pay my own health insurance for four years, my wife and I we went- and I was thinking- should go back to my old company, or should I start something new My thinking was: is that I'd through my timing

men I'd met. So many people. I learned so much about the world day. I had a big understanding now for how the mac, Economic picture worked, and I did feel it there's a lot more. for that I could do than just going back to real estate in the meantime I was getting a lot of calls from different ceos in company saying you know. Can you help me with this company you how with that company, your knowledge could be helpful to help this company the gate, this challenge to expand internationally, and so I said, Maybe I should create a business to do an investment firm where I can do something different were putting together a geopolitical expertise entered. No private equity and growth, investing and figure out. How to That right can do something differentiated, reckon investing in growing thing things and help with my neck. Skills and relationships, so that was kind of the thesis of what I thought could make sense is kind of a next step. I call no different friends. They were very excited to to back the effort of you

This is coming off. The success that I just had in the Middle EAST right did: six peace deals there and in one of the notions. I want people to do with the firm was to be able to take money from the gulf and then to be able invested in Israel to continue to build the on the links between the countries again. If countries have more economic ties, I think war and fighting is is is less likely and then, in addition to that, I wanted to figure out. How do you bring the entrepreneurs together from that those countries. So that was really the mission of what I set out to do so far have been enjoying it. It's what a fund that been learning a ton. I think we're doing very well with it. In terms of the criticisms, I think that I've been criticized in every step, but everything I've always done in my life and so what I would say. As you know, this business is actually an objective metric business right. It's about return, so you don't three four years from now five years from now see how I do hopefully I'll do very well.

And just be based on that in terms of any of the nefarious things and I haven't been accused of any of gov violating any laws and dad I have violated any of the ethics rules either. When I was in government, I every year submitted all my financial as to the costs of government ethics. They, to fight it every year, and I followed every rule on every law possible so set my critics I'll say criticised me before you criticise me now well I'm going to keep doing me and I'm going to keep pursuing things that I think are worthwhile and I'm very excited about this chapter of my career. Maybe this is a good place to ask in working closely with Donald trump what are your sense. Looking into the minds of the man. What's the biggest strength of doll trumpet the leader, I would say his unpredictability. I think that As a leader he's. He consumes a ton of information. He doesn't like to be met

managed or half his information filtered. So he'll speak to a lot of people to draws information himself, he's very pragmatic, I don't see him as terribly ideological. I see him as somebody who's about results. I think he wants to deliver results and I think ultimately mean he is an incredible fighter. He's he's a big counter puncher, but he also once get along with people, and that's probably the biggest surprise that people found with him then you know you look at even situations like. I would always tell people if you disagree with him, don't want. A vision and criticise him to pick up the phone call them and go see him and he'll talk to you about it. You may not agree with you, but again that's what kim kardashian did when She had a case of clemency with a woman Alice Johnson that she felt strongly about. We went through the case We have had our call if I didn't think it was a legitimate case that we spend about eight months quietly, working through the case working through the details.

to make sure that it really was a worthy case, and I brought it to president trump said: she'd like to come meet with you to talk about this case and he said parkman. So she came in. We went through the case and president trump ultimately granted the clemency to was johnson, who was a woman who is accused of being part of a drug ring she had a basically a life sentence for doing it should serve twenty two years in prison, while in prison misuse bay. He was a grandmother and she she was putting on prison plays? She was mentoring, young women imprisoned somebody who again there, was a risk, but by and large had a very, very, very low risk of of committing a crime in the future, and then it goes back to the notion of. Are we gonna judge people by the worst decision they make in their life, and so president trump was willing to

at the climate scene went, and I think that it just goes to the notion of like. Maybe this goes back to his unpredictability in a positive way, which is, if you go sit with him, and you make your case he'll hear you he'll, listen to you and he's not afraid to act and he's not afraid to be controversial, which I think is a good thing. So from a foreign policy. When a view, in particular his unpredictability just meant that everyone was always on their back foot. People were afraid to cut across amerika and what I would tell people who don't my troubles. Say, think about how crazies making you and and his enemies. You know he did that to the enemies of america and done. And yes, He was a very strong president and I think, did a great job so in some The agreements have been talking about, and Speaking with leaders, how do you think the unpredictability house so in all, the agreements that I was negotiating. I wasn't doing it principle. I was doing it on behalf of president trump and people knew that I'd access to president trump and they knew that unites, could take

as you may say this, that we don't like, but I'm going to have to take it back to him and then we'll see what he does and one of the biggest instances was on the: u smc Trade deal aware that deal happen because mexico was admittedly, concerned and smartly, so that president Tromp was going to impose tariffs on the car industry, which would have been decimating to their economy and by the way he was ready to do it. We are holding back from for it with every ounce. strength that we could so it wasn't a bluff. I mean that what was actually real, but they were smart to read that it was real and ultimately be created. A great win win deal and pay a funny story, just popped into my mind, from the tariffs, as we did. Also, we used a to thirty two nationals exemption to protect our steel industry, and we put tariffs on steel and aluminum and again, I thought about this, because we also negotiated them with canada, and there is a very funny

cholera. Trudeau is calling trump and then they got along decently well and dad you're calling think you can with national security tariffs on us and canada. You know where, where, where your nato ally we, if we fall wars with you, we do military together and trump system. You burn the white house down eating twelve and trust that was the frigid knows the hints at head. So it was just here like I said, he's keeping everyone on their toes yeah, and but he was, he wasn't. A free took very calculated risks and, like I said you know, everyone was outraged all the time with everything. But if you look at his body of work, people set if he was elected here start world war. Three. Meanwhile, we inherited a world filled with wars. No new wars right yeah, three years to meet peace, deals, no new wars, use tough. Few strong people respected him. He built relation ships, and I got trade deals, don got peace, deals done the economy,

was rockin. His body work, I think, was pretty strong as president I just said, no new wars. This makes me think if a donald trump won the presidency. What the current situation in ukraine would look like But let me just ask you zoom out and ask you broadly, The one ukraine could have been avoided, and what do you think it takes to bring it to an end, but I think a hundred and it would have been avoided, not ninety nine percent. You know, president from fer a four years had no problems with russia in a we were. We are arming ukraine, but we were working with russia and again the first two years, the of issue working with russia because they were accused of colluding with us, since we had to go through that investigation, but by the second two years we trying to focus russia on are the areas where we can collaborate together. I think russia, because we thought it was in there. For teaching advantage to play

a u s in china against each other, because of the way that everything was done before they restock with china, but not getting a lot for it under bush. They took, John under bomber. They took crimea and a trump. There is no of and then under Biden unfortunate. I think they miss played a couple of things which I think provoked. You know russia too, to go forward. Stilled no excuse to do what they did. I think that the invasion with terror thing and and should not have occurred, but with that being said, I think a hundred percent. If trump was president, there would not be a war in ukraine today, coming to the table and negotiating a piece. well there's donald trump, whether its by nor there is anybody. What do you think it takes dealing as possible if you're in a room, cushions in the room. Then reboot.

And volodymyr Zelensky: what does it take to have a productive conversation and what does it take for that competition fail? I gotta trajectories that lead to success and failure I think you will go back to negotiations number. One is trust right. Both leaders have to have the ability to communicate what an off france is without fearing it cannot lead to the public. So if you go to the posture zalewski right now and by the way since a wednesday have a lot of respect for the courage he showed us. initially there you saw what he did not gonna stand there. They were getting attack by the taliban, took the cash and got the hell out of their staying in kiev when he did how he did. It was one of those brave things we ve seen the long term, and he has a ton of my respect, admiration for doing that, but now he's promising his people. We're gonna win the war and Military action has now

necessarily coincided with that sentiment, and so there has to be some form of of off ramp, but can't say that publicly so for him to be able to work privately with somebody who can help create a new paradigm where both leaders can say we're going to stop the bloodshed, will stop the risk of nuclear war for the world, we're going to stop and what's happening, that's really what it will. how that occurs again, it's not something. I'm involved now so I dont know who the right broker, is or how to put that together, but assent. They need somebody in between them. Who can figure out How do you create a landing zone that that works, because neither parties can jump until the pool is filled with water and it you have to outline what the go forward looks like because you can't just stop it for then to get worse for both parties you have to you have to move it forward into what happens next that, hopefully, can start to turn the tide to benefit both sides.

Where they can focus on the future, instead of being stuck in to the old paradigm of who started wide. Who is to blame for what? Who did what too? Who is just a lot of tough stuff? Now that that's occurred, that can be hard to walk back and it's a big task to get it done, but for the sake of the world be amazing if we are able to reach a conclusion to the conflict is back to the year mercer north korea. What do you think it takes to bring the european environmental law is key to the table together leadership, so at you, you're saying they can ask you. As president It has to be somebody who is willing to put himself on the wine to go and do it and in again, if you're, the? U S, president,

then you're, the most powerful nation, the world. You should be trying, but I do think again. The posture that the u s is taken has probably been a place where they would be very hard to get the trust of russia based on the way that Dave played there, moves to date and always thought from the beginning. The prudent we try to bring in presence in china to resolve it to basically give a big screw you America to say you know China. The one you know in charge of this, but that hasn't seem to manifest itself to date either, but it take leadership yeah, the leaders have to get it and say you know, let's get everyone together and let's try to get this done, because every day goes ron, a more people are dying and you know we do risk nuclear war for the world, which is not a good situation. Let me ask, since you help set up phone calls between donald trump Putin and king aside,

Maybe if I were to interview putin what advice we you give on how to get a deep understanding of the human being, Oh, I didn't deal with russia ton, but in my interaction with with Putin and with russia in her eyes, I would come to point out. A couple of things. Number one is when america was hit with covert in new york, was looking like we're gonna. Matter, ventilators and masks. Russia was the second country that sent us a planeload of supplies and they send that, because they hate america, they sent that because we are starting to make progress together as countries and they thought that they want to show good will to figure out. How can we start work? together and again people may attack me for saying that that sounds naive again. The past fifteen years may show that that's not the case, but I dont want the countries have permanent enemies, I dont believe countries have permanent allies right again. You think about the: u s in russia and wealth were too. We were

together ten to defeat the nazis. Right now, we're great allies with germany, who basically was your great enemy and in world war. Two were great allies, which Japan, who was a great enemy worldwide to so it goes back to the notion we discussed earlier of you shouldn't can and tomorrow to be like yesterday, if unhappy with yesterday, so sooner one definitely asked him about that. The phone call that you may, chin was after we did a pretty intense negotiation to create the largest oil cut in the history of of oil production. So during cop, said the man to shut off like crazy, and it was, it was stopping very quickly saudi in russia. At that time were having a conflict. They created this thing called opec plus, which goes back again history between the two countries, where that catholics and then all of a sudden, they were working together to try to stabilize the oil markets, but they couldn't agree on the cut society, actually increased production. So you had to think

at once where saudi and russia were both increasing production and demand was dropping. So you are headed for a real crisis and I'm starting to get calls from a lot of the oil industry, it is here in amerika, singular stand. We can't just like flip a switch in turn off our oil wells like we're running out of storage here and I shall look. I present trumped likes loyal fry so he's not upset about what's happening, you have to call him and if he gives me commissioner the instruction that I can try to intervene, but I right now he's not inclined to intervene after little bit. He said you know it's time get involved could do, It was a bright overpass over his sister and covert. I spent three days nonstop on the phone with cruelty drive from russia and with a would be asked actually knows dealing with damper lad? Who is our energy minister gone back in Fourth- and it was like it was crazy- it was just one of the crew, These negotiations, we ended up agreeing on the largest oil cut, the history of the world, but the story you went before, which is pretty funny,

was finally make the deal and we set up a call, between king some on were put in and president trump to announce. The deal is greatest so present trumpets us asked graduations. We have a deal and then kinks mice, as we don't have a deal. Mexico hasn't agreed to their cuts. I think what he means is that they were part of the opec plus. As I get a note saying, you gotta go call mexico, some calling mexico doing the same, we're not doing any cuts, so I said, were hedged. Fifty five dollars said: what do you tell us that we're getting some telling the saudis are so we are working through this whole thing. So, meanwhile, we are trying to find the compromise with mexico. I set up a call with with trump and prudence. They can kind of talk this through, and he was always trying to

play the game of how do we get russia away from china? He always thought that that was not the right strategic framework for a: u s, interests and again we had no problems with them during that time, but I would say is that, if for selling Food in any conversation with both of them is about understanding their perspective. I think with Putin he's a student of history from the things that I saw with him. If you look at rush over the last five hundred years, They were attacked by the polish and in early sixteen hundred, I think they were attacked by the swedes and seventeen hundreds to think they were attacked by napoleon, the eighteen, hundreds and then in the nineteen hundred they were attacked by germany twice and so from his perspective. There is you know in the early days of russia. They were attacked by the mongols, they were very vulnerable and a lot of the geography of russia. Today, his really designed for defensive purposes

that they have natural barriers that makes them easier to defend in russia's a massive landmasses, twice the size of america. They have eleven zones zones in the country, and so I do think that provide for Vladimir Putin, his biggest concern is how do we create a security paradigm in the way? of his country. That won't be a creep, and I think that there's like two different parts, the mindset you know the people who are most cynical putin will say what he's just trying to reach create the ussr, he's being expansionist and people want to be sympathetic to him will say well, if you think about it, the russian perception of the nato. Her reach arrangement was that they wouldn't be expanding westward over the last years. They ve all these countries that they said they promised they wouldn't include who with the promises were, was her were weren't. But what I do know from his perspective is Allowing ukraine into nato was always a red line and that's why we never offered it. We never provoked at. We never brought up. We say we're gonna armor and we

This is just calm down. We don't want any conflict there. We have bigger issues and bigger opportunities to work from. So I do think you have to think through. What's apparent that he can accept, and I do think that you know he'll give the justification for why he's done what is done and then I think the framework for a solution is about how do we move both parties forward? Tough job? I hope you get the opportunity to do it, because I think it's a conversation that will only help the world hopefully find a pathway forward. I should mention gas emission jog. one of the one of the many books you recommended me that gives a very interesting perspectives. Histories call prisoner, of geography by tim marshal, and it has a very interesting perspective on the geopolitical conflicts and prosper, of russia from her? For my geography perspective, and also for china, the second chapter

then there's a lot of understanding of why the expansion of nato such concern for russia geography still, even in the twenty first century, less and less so because technology and so on, but it still plays a major role in conflict between nations, rivers, mountains and understanding the d they have countries that it was one of the most phenomenal books and I just found it on amazon randomly, but I loved every minute of it. The chapter on america is also incredible, going through the eva some of you know how we came the country we are. The different acquisitions are different changes. Why we have all these geographic advantages, and die? It's an unbelievable book for any one is interested in geopolitics, so I have to ask on several aspects of china. First then, the present The meeting you have set up a first call first meeting between our trump and XI can tell the story that exists. Ass instinct,

that first phone call the reaching out the form in the human connection which, ultimately, the connection between nations and the possibility of collaboration So during the transition president from took a call from the head of taiwan and that sent the chinese into a real tailspin and he didn't do it, I think to be provocative to them as much as just as a bit man. He felt the answer. Your call somebody wants to speak to you speak to him like you, you want to have conversations, hear their point of view, and but it was taken as a very big insult and it was against tradition and norm. And so that was something that I set us often in the wrong direction. My view at the was that you know we are kind of enter. did you two world whether people want to admit it or not, and that a lot of these countries in what I call the middle market countries were basically playing this. When china was being aggressive,

their one belt. One road there are basically playing u s in china against each other, and I thought that by the two leader Coming together, there were some things they would agree on, but there is a lot that they, I could agree on which could lead to a resolution to a lot of issues in the world that that that was like my most optimistic view. My most more pragmatic view is that president tromp, Very big issues on trade that you want to get too with china. He felt like China, their trade practices run unfair. They weren't following all the global rules of trade, how he will, but nervous that they would be provocative with taiwan, and I felt like the two of them getting together would be the best way to try and resolve that. So the chinese are very proud, A lot of it is about face, and so we in orders negation for the first calm we base. Real. What would happen in the calls? Not let us have a call say, hi nice to meet. You is a question of president trump. Basically,

that he would acknowledge the one china policy which he see as a big concession, because you can always unacknowledged at the next day, We acknowledging that will go and exchange a present he was gonna come over to the: u s for a visit, so they could sit together and they wanted outside the white house, and so we agreed on more logo which are so tat was good cause. President trump always felt much more comfortable when he was hosting at his properties and he just felt at home, and so he liked having people's his guests and he loved deed loved. It d always felt really really accident, and it was great. So that was really what we did. Then the Chinese come over very much anticipated visit and it was incredible so they were supposed to sit together for fifteen minutes and dab scent for about an hour and a half together and during that meeting president trump, I said, look let's just set some ground rules to this relationship like let's just not talk about taiwan. Like you know, just don't do anything I don't want on the table. If it does, I'm gonna have to do harsh things. I still want this to be a problem for for you we got bigger issues, they basically just to get. You noticed for years, a trump administration

taiwan talk whatsoever. It was a non issue started time. Trade issues. They spent a lot of time on north korea. President Tromp was trying to get the perspective from from president. She about north korea, because that was again considered from obama, the biggest national security issue that we faced at the time and dumb, and they just tat a good feeling for each other. It also I hope that you know my wife and I we actually had a chinese nanny and teacher in our house and art. Our kids learned a fluent mandarin, and our daughter, actually opened when dad at present. in president trump were together with the with the maloney on with but I'm paying is the is my directly at the same time, a couple chinese songs and dad What does a nice way to show? You know we're taught, but we respect your culture, because the chinese have an incredible culture that goes back thousands of years, they're very proud and in how in how they do it, and I think that sign of respect also set things off.

Very warm way for prestham, say my granddaughter, speaks chinese and and were showing you the respect which it is very important and he did have respect for them. The next part about visit minute. I've seen a lot of discussions on trade, but the part that was probably most impact felt me was president. She basically didn't our monologue at lunch, where he just went through chinese history from his perspective, and he talked about with particular emphasis- son, unkind of the treaty of unequal and then the hundred years of humiliation, and then you go through from now on the way to today- and you had you not china, coming back and rising, and you can tell that he was learn lessons from the past and was very committed to kind of steam china go through, so that was a different time right. So China today is different than it was in two thousand and seventeen and two thousand and seventeen

and I remember president, she was at Davos and he was fetid by all the top business people in the world, as the donald trump was the threat that the global world order. President, she was the champion of free trade and the biggest champion of environmentalism and and and fighting for climate change, then, and what occurred was present from came in and basically said like. I think china has not been following the rules based order took very very drastic approach with tariffs. Every time you would do the tariffs again. At the minute and our treasury sector come to voc my house. If he does this, this is going to crash the whole economy amid these and by the way he believed it. I mean these were things that people were telling. Him would be very tough to do President trumpeter at a gentleman named ambassador light eyes. A robber light has her. He was really that the tipp of his speech, on all of our our trade negotiations? He worked very well sectarian secretary they ended up. We ended up increasing tariffs to numbers it hadn't even been thought could happens. Who did the first round of tariffs

then near the Chinese came back retaliated very surgically, trying to hit us in all the areas that politically would have been difficult and would trump did Instead of backing down. He took some of the revenue from the tariffs, to the farmers and said. I know that this can hurt your business but make sure you guys are made hole and then he double down and basis back at the chinese with even more terror, so what we watched over a year and a half was probably the biggest hand of poker that ever played, and it was an amazing experience to be a part of it, and then I played, was really working for a sec terminating in a and ambassador light, her as a that China, with the chinese to make sure we can just de escalate, and get a solutions in a in the best way possible, and so, but he was a fascinating time, but if you think about the global awareness of the bad practices that china was putting in place today versus what they weren't two thousand sixteen, I think one of president trumps, most successful paul

cs was shifting the way the entire world understood the threat of china and then putting in place the beginning of a regime to try in rebalance the world, so that We can have more economic parity, so you mentioned to me book the hundred year marathon by michael pills, bury how will we because china and I've got it just to read parts of it and I highly recommend people read because there's a few is dead an eye opening perspective. if I agree with all of that, I don't know if you agree with all of it, but certainly opens as it gives a variant

His perspective on china- and you said it was instructive to how you thought how thou trump thought about china. Can you describe the main thesis of the book and maybe with the hopeful view, how is possible to have a trajectory of these two superpowers working together in twenty first century verses? gus guess each other perfect. So it's a very, very big book, and I think it's a book definitely worth reading Michael is sir, is is is tremendous. He speaks flu, dad mandarin. So he he spent a lot of time researching to do the book so highly recommended every one and it was considered more of a fringe perspective to doubt the sixteen, but it really, I think, came to represent the underpinning of what the collective thought was of the trumpet minister, sean and down- and maybe you could argue that it was even more cynical that the whole thesis of the book was that China, from

nineteen, forty nine to two thousand forty nine was working to reclaim their position as the global leader writes that you're the the chinese empire- and you know one of the things I don't have it's from this book or different book- that I read that spoke about how, in the late seventeen hundreds. Basically, the emperor of china was offered some of the industrial capability from england, which was basically now becoming industrial. the industrial revolution and they said no we're fine where the great chinese empire we don't. We don't need any of these things. or were better than that, and by rejecting that the rest the world got stronger. China remained weaker than you are He did the the opium wars. You know the the Chinese had big opium problems too. All the trade back and forth, and then china from about eighteen, forty to the ninety four hundred years, where they really, after all, these treaties, really a second class, a country, and so then you have the people's revolution that comes in and he talks about

how china very strategically is a very, very poor country, and you know, would fight their way back and and build brick by brick, and you know he proffers in the book that Nixon didn't go to china open china was China that actually went to Nixon and was able to use nixon in order to open up, and they talk that how under carter, they were able to get the? U s, dickens, but to a lot of their there, but I can start borrowing the? U s: no half mar university systems, more medical from all sides Our research and the whole notion that was the conventional thinking of american leaders was that the more we help china advance the more they would I'm a free market economy, and it was a great market. The only difference was was that they were in allowing us access. They were making our companies basely, give them all of their technical. Knowledge. They were stealing our intellectual property. Are, they were doing, be knowledge to to steal a lot of the patents they were just bring our patents and they weren't following any of the room rules of international trade. Then they started

coming the world's manufacturing hub the base, we came the world's factory and then they started. This whole initiative called the belt and road initiative in order to start locking in their lines of traits. They are buying up all the ports everywhere they were building railways thinking. How do we we lock in our distribution, so we can maintain dominance as the world's global factory and so was a brilliant long term plan that they were doing and by raising awareness by putting the terrorist trump. Slowed them down a lot, and the real question is if they actually did achieve this full objective of becoming the world dominant country what they would have done with it, whether they would have been nefarious or not. I think, from my perspective, even with some of the divisions in issues we have now in amerika. I still am other american led world daughter than chinese led world daughter, but notion- was that they were playing a very zero sum game and really going to be the dominant lee in this new world order. So so that really framed the prospect,

and it was in a surly and people- ask me, which was in the chinese royce, fearing its trump trying to stop arise You have a great bokassa by graham alison that he writes about you know, are we death for war between? U s in china, and he goes through different historical times, where you have a power and a rising for power, and I think you know more than at the time it ends up leading to war. So the question is is what's going to happen here and I I do think that trump's perspective- and this is the interpretation, because everything was always tactical data day, and yet he was unpredictable to the chinese, which they, deal with and he was unpredictable even to his team, sometimes because he was playing it. day by day and issue by issue and always changing and adjusting, which is how an entrepreneur thinks he respected the job they did by building their country, they moved three hundred million people out of poverty into the middle class. They did it at the expense of a lot of other countries throughout the world, especially america, but trump says. Look stupid. Politicians-

deals. I respect china for doing what they did, but what I want do as I want to change the paradigm so that for the net- Twenty years we can maintain our advantage over that we can maintain. Our compare if dynamic and you're his general view was that america is the best private sector in the world. We have a lot of mines in the world and if we gave him just have a level playing field with set rules. in america should be able to outperform and so it's really. What we were trying to do. We are trying to kind of get rid of some of their state subsidies, get rid of make them false from these international rules of trade and down, and not allowing them to do predatory investments that then undercut dick industries that we had set. They can have global market dominance or monopolies and different industries and then have pricing power, but also in a geopolitical powers like one of the examples that people talk about now is china. Last twenty years was v

the advanced on seeing this electrification trend. They went they they they suffer I solar panels. A lot of the american solar panel players were put out a bit so now. I think it's like ninety plus per cent we're panels in the world I manufacture. in china than all the rare earths that you need in order to make these solar panels and to make these electric vehicles china's bought up most of them in a lot of the refining capacities in china. So thinking through strategically. How do we create an even playing field that were not at the mercy of them and how you can have a rules based world order that was really kind of the of what we were trying to work towards so uh. There's this snl skit where Jimmy fallon, please, you walking the losses so looking cool wing wearing shades and a bull perverse to the song unbelievable leo by him ass an office seen it was pretty epic

and then from says the if half of the world representing the administration, but no one has ever heard you speak. So there's a lot of questions I can ask about the global one of them. Is: can you interest back why you choose this Loki approach of kind of operating behind the scenes and thus speaking much the public, at least at the time. If you spoke in a little more in today, spoken for a really long high, which I deeply appreciate how it's been applied. To do this in and thank you for the opportunity to talk about these things, and As I said, I was really funny skit and down here funny, that's the thing I got made fun of the most, for that was the wardrobe and I came from If you are three months in the administration, we would, if we're having a dinner with all the generals, and they were saying you know, you're updating us on the war with isis and a general dunford said to me. After look, the president can't come to see out we're fighting this war, but I'd like to invite you to come with me to a rack and come see

which come with me. I said note this great. I we learnt in business you can't make decisions from just an ivory tower. You have to go to the front lines and see what is actually happening has had no problem. I'd love to go be while two days before about to go the dock, for the way I stopped by my offices. When you get your blood types, what he my blood they faced, you're going active war zone like ok, so I guess you gotta worse. I hadn't really think this thing fully through. So I get on the plane with further, and I we landed in iraq and He looks like g. I Joe is that you knows a great great, generally, very, very well, respected in the military and we we go and we we get on black hawk helicopter. They said you know today's a nice day. Let's take the decides off, and so I get on the plane and there's a guy in a million service officer who then takes machine gun locks it in to a thing takes. The bullets puts them into the gun and a sitting there saying we're ready to go

and I'm looking out there's like three other helicopters with guys you one was an aspirin with a guy buckled in So with a machine gun. Looking out, we take off our flying over Baghdad from the airport to the embassy and as we're going, I was sitting in an open air helicopter with the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, guys with machine guns everywhere, as is a new experience for you. He have an experience. This lazy me- and I was real estate like three months, you know our flying over iraq and the chairman says that saddam Hussein's palace, I looked down, there's like a big. I am right through the middle. Then you see the area with the two swords in the hands. I'm seeing myself like how the hell did I get here, What what what is happening, so. Meanwhile, we end up going the front lines to be with the service that the iraqi military, which the? U S, military, is working closely with and I d meeting that now with the present of iraq, and so I more what do you wear it at the front lines battles own and also view the president's open a sport jacket on wheels.

At the end, the front line, and they give me a bull professed, that's a cushion or on it I take it I just type I put it on. I go out and the any are suggested kush and and I went and I d really they were taken- pictures inciting that picture is pretty up. I use well glasses the think I loved city way. So that was the funny story behind bad and they actually, my brother, was some society event in new york and he ran into jimmy fallon, said the two of them took a selfie together and Josh writes me says a hand with my older brother in new york. I'm trying to explain to him what your voice sounds like silva, so who is good, so that was a funny one, but I think just being behind the scenes for me just gave me more maneuverability in the sense that you know I again, it goes back to trust and people, knowing that I wasn't gonna try to publicize the thing they were telling me. I think it just gave me more ability to operate that way,

and I also realise too, like communicating is a very important skill. Luckily, in washington, this notion did of amazing communicators. I think there are a lot of people who are much better at even being communicators. I was very happy that they were willing to do it because it wasn't something that I have experience. Whether necessarily I thought was very. I was very good at, and so I kind of just did my job and and and just focused on getting things done the then. Let me ask you: you have a very interesting life you're to give advice to young folks I how to have such an impact for life. What would you say. Career and life, how to have a successful career as successful life number one is, I would say you just have to work hard at everything. You do number two I would say, never stop learning. Try to say. Yes,

more than you should go out your comfort zone, and I think it's just you got it work hard at everything you do and and and if you're gonna take something on do the best you can be a one of them Since I write about the book from my father was a member is going for a job interview and he asked me says: will what time are you leaving to job interview, is at nine. O clock is only at eight o clock. You saw what if there's traffic said that I've done this drive a thousand times like there's, never traffic. So what? If there's an accident said? I can control that, Is it just the only excuse you ever have for being late? Is that you didn't leave early enough, and I just think it something where, if you want to accomplish something a lot of people. I hear they complain about what other people do or why it's hard or why it's impossible and again hey. This is somebody who's been so blest with with with so many things in life, but no one I've had challenges are things wanted to achieve. I just focus and say what

and I do- and I are of red everything I can get my hands on off. If I fail at one day at the door closed on, try the window of the window closer tried, the chimney at the chimney chose I'll try to get on. It was just if you want to accomplished, something you just have to go out and done. I think that the most then I'll, say sorry, I'm kind of thinking my way into this answer. Is is just do the right thing. I think that's also right, and I saw that in my career be good people beyond. As do the right thing, damn and if you do that, I think long term a baby does pay off, maybe not a politics, but in not in the world at large. It does and my hope is imposed next, he well as well. I wonder if he can comment on your process of learning in general answer me new, interesting problems and approve

wish them with a first principles, kind of approach. So what was your source of information cause? You didn't seem to be listening to the assumptions of the prior experts. You were just taken on the problem in a very pragmatic but if so, what was how'd you learn about the middle EAST. How did you learn about Now, how did you learn about mexico? Hydrogen? You don't like all of these prison reform. All this leave taken on were extremely effective, that you really started, which is talking about well I would. I would try to reach out to people who had been involved in different things. ask them, you know what they did, what they thought of the problem who thought with smart on it, what they read that help them get a better understanding, why they think something had failed and that I've just been a red

graciously on every topic. In a washington. It was harder to get advice from from humans because I found humans had this weird tendency to talk to the media and so now I talk to somebody, don't unasked advice and then the next thing I know is the washed and postal kanzi charge an idiot what he's doing is even going to this person good advice and like yeah, I'm asking everyone so so books really be, came an amazing guide for me, a vodka. She she's an incredible researcher. She she's just voracious, and so she gave me some my best books and some credible. ice as well, but that was really that the process and then think that was kind of the first stage in the second stage, was constant, adoration and readjusting plan. As you continue to get more learning and wednesday, town the book as well as that on my my first trip to the Middle east, where I met with tat mohammed. I had no, I spoke earlier of you. I e I spent two hours with him asking questions and really going through

these really palestinian issue, the israeli arab issue, and he said to me at the end of the meat he says Jared, I think you're gonna make. Is here in the middle east and I was shocked because my first while he was speaking about the time, I think so the most respected leaders in the region. Somebody who I am to be very wise and super thoughtful and x, Instead I sent him. Why do you say that I was flattered, obviously, but but not certain. Why was saying that, based on the fact that I didn't know what my plan was, I didn't know what I was going to do. It I'd no pathway to make peace, and he said well less usually sends one of three different kinds of people to come. See me. He says the first our people come and they fall asleep in meetings. He said. The second are people who come and they basically read me notes, but have no ability to interact on the message they're there to convey, and then the third have been people who have come to convince me to do the things that aren't in my interests, he says: you're, the first person who's ever come here, and it's just ask questions

this is why why have you done that? I said because I figure you have this I have to go out for a long time. You live here I'll begun at some point. You're gonna have to live with the consequences of whatever My work is and the u S is a lot of power and my question is: what would you do if you were me and how would you approaches and help me? think about it and again I wasn't gonna then take his plan and execute it, but I thought I'd be very provocative to understand from the people the region and instructive how they would use resource in the power that the? U s had to solve the problems that we're having significant impact on their lives yeah, there's a lot of power to the sort of. The simplicity of their human approach, where you're just listening and one of my wishes for society. As I leave government, you know I

living on the upper side in a very liberal echo chamber, I then travel the country I met so many people who are never, if met otherwise on the conservative side on the independent side on so many different issues, I think that people benefit. If you such a strong point of view, I would follow the john word mel marketplace of ideas and find people who did great with you and don't All the names don't say there, a bad person say I want to stand why you feel the way you do. Let's have conversations in this country and I think that that's probably gonna be our best way to work through The issues that we have currently when you zoom out and look at the twenty first century. A human history perspective across the timescale of may decades? Maybe centuries? What gives you hope about human civilisation You ve seen you ve travel, the world taught the sun was powerful inside your people and you look at the future

the hope about this little planet of ours. What gives me the most hope is that anything is possible. If there's there's one lesson that I took from my time in government. It's that people coming together to try to to tomorrow. Different than yesterday can succeed, and if the right people on the right places focus on the right ideas. I think the advancement that we can have for him history and for society can be tremendous. I think that right now I see where at a place in society, where there's a lot of what I call squabbles between car, greece, which are really man versus man, issues and those are as old as time right. You know we ve been fighting about borders are per or religion or network, or who wrong somebody a hundred thousand years ago- and these are call more tribal battles, but I do think that, as we advance with artificial intel, hence as energy, becomes cheaper and its more readily available? I think we're gonna have massive industrialization. I think we're gonna have massive advancement, thinkin met

One science we're gonna, have cures for diseases. We have the potential intent, the years from now to enter at dawn for humanity. That could be incredible. Can become multi planetary. We can, we can explore the wonders of the world. We can find things we didn't know. So I think that if, if we, we put our energy towards finding these advancements that will improve the lives of of everyone on this planet, instead of figuring out ways to have these tensions between us? That, for me, is the most optimistic case for possible and the reason why I believe it's possible is because somebody with no variants somebody who all areas had was? It was the faith of a leader and had the courage to try and I went out, or with other people. We took on some of the most hopeless impossible problems and we succeeded, and if we were able to do that,

then everyone else should be able to do that as well. Well, Jared, thank you for having the courage to try. Thank you for your friendship for your kindness. Most importantly, for your book recommendation and I thank you for talking. It is fascinating eye opening. I hope to have many more conversations like this. Thank you very much lex. Thank you for listening to this conversation with Jared kushner to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description, and now let me leave you with some words from a hub, icandy, an eye for an eye. A lonely make the whole world blind. Thank you for listening and hope you next