The following is conversation with great looking out of free speech advocate first amendment tourney, president, the ceo of fire, the foundation for individual rights and expression, and he's the author of unleashing liberty, co, author with jonathan height of coddling or the american mind, and co author with ricky slot of a new book coming out in october she doesn't pay all now called the cancelling of the american mind, which is a definitive accounting of the history present and future of careful culture. A term used an over used in public discourse, but rarely studied And- understood with a depth and rigour. The gregg and ricky do in this book and in part in this conversation, freedom of speech is important, especially a college campuses, the very place the sheets

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about the value of life. We look around us. How much will value life Look in the mirror, how much value life there's something I constantly think about. when I meditate on my own mortality and when I do think about my own death and the death of people, I love the value of life becomes so intensely clear that life is busy and every single moment is precious so funny when you think about getting assurance of any kind. And especially when you think about getting life insurance, those kinds of questions come to the surface of what is the worth of life, and also the just the actual fact of death comes to the surface is a beautifully pragmatic

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Tim dillon, my heart, and sometimes I let him out- I'm sing bit his scares, the neighbours, but is good for the soul Anyway, if you're anything liked him down on me, you probably need all the therapy you can get, I'm a big believe in conversation period and better health makes it super accessible and easy. You can check them out at barrel, dot, com, slash, lex and save any first month. That's better health dot com, slash lex. The show is also brought you buy in I'd tracker, its service. I used to tried biological data data coming from my body My body is a wonderland. I keep saying that because it reminds me that I really need to talk John, fair, one of the greatest living guitarists blues musicians of our time. also a hilarious, brilliant and fund personal talk to. I had the great pleasure of having dinner with him and I was just fun. His whole energy is by the way

moves his body. The way he moves is mine away. He moves the conversation is just like non sequiturs, interesting questions profundity hilarity all mixed together. I, the brilliant, did brilliant and plus just ridiculous. A guitar in every way said the technical and the musical and the creative, the popular the fun, the simple the complicate all together. Just a genius dude I'd love to. I would love to talk the park, not just comedy conversation intermixed with some guitar. I feel like it could be something magical created there. Why did it because my bodies wonderland and it produces a lot of biological signals and track those biological signals in order to make

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Sometimes like ninety nine or might eighty nine, but its we're talking about fifteen hundred calories. Sometimes two thousand calories of delicious poaching was some fabric of the skin is just it the entirety it's just me and chicken and which just there and worth thinking About what it means, looking up at the stars wondering where is this Incredible life going to take us and also filled melancholy and hope and granted, for how amazing the journey has been so far. Some thing about late night with a rotisserie chicken is the absolute gateway to that level of gratitude when oppose The data somebody commented saying: eating is fried chicken at midnight

at the grocery store is how men do therapy it's funny, but the little patrol anyway. Speaking of happiness and gratitude. I am deeply grateful for the the best my favorite long time I'm vps companion expressly paean. You care check them out. If you want to protect your privacy and security on the internet's worth on any operating system, including linux, the best operating system, you can go check it out for yourself and express vpn dot com, slash leg spot for an extra three months free. This is Alex Friedman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, here's greg louganis

Let's start with a big question: what is cancelled culture? Not you said that you don't like the term as it's been not quote, dragged through the mud, abused endlessly by a whole host of controversial figures. Nevertheless, we have the term. What is it cancel? Culture is the uptake of campaigns, especially successful campaigns, starting around twenty fourteen to get people fired, expelled de platforms etc for speech that would normally be protected by the first amendment as it would be protected, because we're talking that circumstances in which it is necessarily where the first amendment applies. But what I mean is like, as an analog to say who do things. You can't lose your job as a public employ for

and also the climate of fear, that's resulted from off from that phenomenon. The fact you can lose your job for having the wrong opinion, and it wasn't subtle that this there was an uptick in this perfectly an on campus around twenty fourteen Jon ronson wrote a book called so you've been publicly shamed, they came out in two thousand and fifteen already documenting this phenomena. I wrote a it's called freedom from speech in two thousand and fourteen and but in, but it really wasn't twenty seventeen when he started seeing this be directed at professors and that when it comes to the number of professors that we've seen you know BP targeted and lose their jobs I've been doing for twenty two years and I've seen nothing like it. So they saw me things. I want to ask you one actually just look at the organization of fire, He explained what organization is because, inter connected to this whole fight, and the rise of cancer culture in the fight for freedom of speech, since twenty fourteen and before so far

was founded in nineteen. Ninety nine by harvey silverglade, he is a famous civil liberties attorney. He is a bit bit on the show he's the person who actually found me out my very happy life out in san francisco, but knew I was looking for a first amendment. Job and I'd gone to law school specifically to do first amendment and- and he he found me, which was pretty cool his his protege, Kathleen Sullivan, was the dean of stanford law school, and this remains the best compliment I ever got in my life is that she It recommended me to harvey and since that's the whole reason why I went to law school, I was excited to be a part of this new organization, the other co founder of of air is Alan. Charles courts, these just an absolute genius and he is the one of the leading experts in the world on the enlightenment and particularly about voltaire, and if any of you listeners do like the great courses he

has a lecture on Blaise pascal and blaze, of course, is famous for the pascal's wager, and I left it just so moved at impressed and with a depth of understanding. Of how important this listen was at this meeting. You mentioned me offline connected to this that there is on that. at least it was in parallel, or there is a connection between the love of size and the law of the freedom of speech. Yes, aren't you maybe elaborate where that connection is sure, I think, that, for those we're really have devoted our lives to freedom of speech. One thing that we are, into whether we know it or not? Is a pistol malagigi? You know for this that the study and philosophy of knowledge in freedom features lots of moral and philosophical dimensions, but from a pragmatic standpoint, it is necessary because we're creatures of credibly limited knowledge. We are incredibly self deceiving. I always loved the fact that

val harare refers to the enlightenment as the discovery of ignorance, because that's exactly what it was, it was suddenly be big being like, while hold on a second all. This incredibly interesting. folk wisdom. We got which, by the way is, can be, can be surprisingly reliable here and there when you start testing a lot of it is nonsense. It doesn't hurt, up even our even ideas about the way things fall in overview of you. Galileo, I establish like even our intuitions they're, just wrong and so a lot of the early history of freedom of speech and where it was happening at the same time as sort of the scientific revolution. So a lot of the early debates about freedom of speech were tight.

and so get. Certainly galileo written in you know, I always point out, like kepler, was probably likely even more radical idea that they weren't even perfect spheres but a but at the same time, largely because of the invention of the printing press. You also had all these political developments and- and you know I always talk about Jan hus- you know from the famous AK and the hero who was at that was burned at the stake and I think in fourteen nineteen, but he was basically luther before the printing press. before luther could get his word out. You know I couldn't stand a chance, and that was exactly what yahoo was, but a century later. Thanks for the printing press, everyone could know what luther thought and boy did did they, but it led to, of course, this completely crazy, hyper disrupted period

and and and european history, while you mentioned that to jump around a little bit the first amendment. First of all, what is the first amendment and what is the connection to you between the first amendment to freedom of speech and cancel culture of short? So I'm a first amendment lawyer as I mentioned, and that's what I it's my passionless, what I studied and I think american first a memo laws incredibly interesting in one sentence. The first amendment is trying to get rid of. Basically all the reasons why, when I had been killing each other for its entire existence that we were going?

had any more over opinion. We weren't going to fight any more religion that you have the right to approach your government for redress of grievances and that you, you have the freedom to associate that all of these things in one sentence were like nope. You knew that the government will no longer interfere with you with with your right to have these. Have these fundamental human, human rights, and so one thing that makes fire a little different from other organizations is, is, however, we're not just a first amendment organization. We are a free speech organization, and so and and but at the same time, a lot of what I think free speech is can be well explained with reference to a lot of first amendment law partially because in american history, some of our smartest people have been thinking about what the parameters of freedom of speech are in relationship to the first amendment and a lot of those principles they they transfer very well just as as pragmatic ideas. So like the biggest sin in terms of censorship,

It's called viewpoint, discrimination that essentially, you allow freedom of speech, except for that opinion. Now it's and it's found to be kind of more defensible, and I think this makes sense that if you, if you set up a forum and like we're, only going to talk about economics, to exclude people who want to talk about a different topic, but it's considered rightfully and at a bigger deal if you've set up a forum for economics, but we're not going to let people talk about that kind of economics or have that opinion on economics what most most particularly So a lot of the principles from first a mehmet law actually make a lot of philosophical sense as good principles for when, like what is protected, unprotected speech, what should get you in trouble, how you actually analyze it, which is why we actually try and our definition of council culture to work in some of the first amendment norms. Just in the definition, so we don't have the bog down on them as well. You think so These things were going on their viewpoint. Discrimination is a grey area of this.

in their like what is and is an economics for the example you gave yeah. Is it there? I mean? Is it size is it or is it an art to draw lines of what is and isn't allowed yeah. You know if you're saying that something is or is not economics. Well, you can say everything's economics and therefore I want to talk about poetry that there'd be some line, drawing exercise on there. But let's say at once: you decide to open up and add it to poetry, and it's a big difference between saying. Okay now are open to poetry. But you can't say you know, Dante was bad and, like that's enough, that's a forbidden opinion now officially in in this otherwise open forum that would immediately, at an intuitive level, strike people as a bigger problem than just saying that poetry is an economics any that intuitive level. These speak too. I hope that all of us,

have the car basic intuition when the line is cost is the same thing for my pornography yeah, you know when you see, I think the same level intuition that should be applied across the board here s, one that intuition comes to form by whatever forces of society that when it starts to feel like censorship yeah, I mean people find it a different thing you know someone loses their job simply for their political opinion. Even if that employer has every right in the world the fire you I think American should still be like. It's true. They have every right in the world and I am not making a legal case that maybe you shouldn't fire someone for their political opinions, but think that through I, what what society do we, one. What kind of society do we want to live in and it's been funny watching and you know and I appoint the start. Yes, I will defend businesses, our first amendment rights of association, to be able to have the legal right to decide. You know who-

works for them, but from a moral or philosophical matter. If you think, through the implications of if every business and in america becomes an expressive us station, in addition to being a profit maximizing organisation, that would be a disaster for democracy, because you would end up in a situation where people would actually be saying to themselves I dont think I can actually say what I really think and still believe. I can keep my job and that's where I was worried. I felt like we are headed because a lot of the initial response to people getting cancelled was of that. Very simply, you know all that they have the right to get rid of this person and that then- and that's that's the end and be a beginning and end of the discussion, and I thought that was a dutch. I thought that was an actually very serious way of that. If you care about both the first amendment and freedom, speech of thinking it through the two you just to clarify for some amendments, car a legal in

Of the ideal of freedom of speech, and if we don't have your fight, the government in this very specific, applied to government freedom of speech is the application of the principle like everything, including like other high level. Philosophical ideal of women of the value of our people being able to speak their mind yeah. If it's an, older bolder. I more expansive idea and you can have a situation and I talk about countries that have good free speech law, but not necessarily great free speech culture, and I talk about how, when we sometimes make this distinction between free speed, lawn free speech, culture were thinking and a very cloudy kind of way. And what I mean by that- is that laws generally particularly common law country it it's the reflection of norms, though those me

judges are people too, and a lot of cases, common law supposed to actually take our intuitive ideas of fairness and place them. You know into the law. So if you actually have a culture that doesn't appreciate free suite from a philosophical standpoint, and it's not going to able to protect free speech for the long haul, even in the law, is eventually that's why, Why worry so much about some of these terrible cases coming out of law schools, because I fear that even though shore american first a memo laws very strongly protective, first amendment, four: now it's not gonna stay that way. If you have iterations of law students graduating who actually think there's nothing. There's no higher golden shouting down you're an opponent. Yes, that's why so much of your focus

or large fraction of your focus is on the higher education or education period is because education is the foundation of culture. Yeah. You have this history, you know sixty four, you have the free speech movement in berkeley and in sixty five you have repressive tolerance by herbert marcuse, which was a declaration of by the way we on the left. We we shouldn't We should have free speech, but we should have free speech. For us I mean I, I went, one went back and re read, repressive tolerance and how clear it is. I've I forgot had forgotten that it really is kind of like any so called conservatives and right wingers. We need to repress them because the regressive thinkers it real

doesn't come up to anything more sophisticated than the very old idea that our people are good. They get free speech, we should they should keep it other side, bad. We should not have, and we have to retrain society and, of course like it, it it ends up being. Another aim is also van of mouth, so it is not surprising that he be that, of course, the system would have to rely on some kind of totalitarian system, but that was a laughable position. You know say thirty, forty years ago, the idea, the idea that essentially in a free speech for me not for thee, as as the great day in a free speech champion at hand, we used to say, was something that you were supposed to be embarrassed by, but I saw this when I was in in law school in ninety seven. I saw this when I was interning at the a c l. U and ninety nine and that there was a slow motion train wreck coming that essential,

there was these bad ideas from campus that had been. Taking on more and more steam of? Basically, no free speech for my opponent were actually become more more and more accepted as and partially because actually nea was becoming less and less viewpoint diverse. I think that, as my co author Jonathan high points out that when you have low viewpoint, diversity, people start thinking in a very kind of tribal way, and if you dont have the respected dissenters, you don't have the people that you can point to that like hey. This is a smart per this is like this is a smart, reasonable, decent person that I that I disagree with. So I guess not everyone thinks alike. On this issue, you start getting much more kind of, like only you know, only bad people Only heretics only blasphemers only right wingers in oh, can actually think in this way. Every time there's something I was ever million thoughts, the main questions, a pop up thinking, there's a kind of drift as you write by the book

any mention now, there's a drift towards the left in academia. But you also maybe jaw distinction here alive- in the re and cancel culture. As you present, your book sure is none the thoroughly associated with anyone political viewpoint, but there's more citizens on both sides: oh yeah, that result in cancellation and censorship, violation of freedom of speech, so one thing I would be really clear about. Is the book takes on both right and left cancer culture, their different, and a lot of ways indefinitely in council. Culture from the left is more important and academia where the left is more dominates, but Talk a lot about cancer culture coming from legislatures. We talk a lot about cancer culture on campus as well, because, even though most of the attempts that come from on campus to get people- cancelled are still from the left. There are a lot of attacks that come from the right that come from the attempts by you dead

different organizations, and sometimes when there are stories and fox news in like that, though, go after professors and about one third of the attempts to get professors punished that our successful actually do come from the right, and we talk about attempts to get books banned in in the in the book. We talk about and and talk about suing the floor The legislature, Rhonda santas had something called the stop woke act on which we told everyone. This is laughably unconstitutional me and they tried to ban in particular topics in higher and make no. This is a joke like lately, but that this will this will be lost, doubt of court, and they don't listen to us and they brought it. They passed it and we sued and we won now they're trying again with something that is equally as unconstitutional, and we also again we will and we will win the labyrinth, stop woke access presume.

we trying to limit certain topics from being taught in school at bape, basically woke topics, and you know it it's more. It came out of the sort of attempt to get at critical race theory, so it it's topics related to race, gender etc. I dont remember exactly how they tried to cabinet too, to see our tee, but when you? Actually, the laws really well established that you can't tell higher education what they're allowed to teach without violating without violating the first amendment, and when this got in front of a judge, it was exactly as a he was exactly as of skeptical of it as as we thought he'd be. I think he called this dystopian and it was. It wasn't a a close call. So, if you're against that kind of teaching,

the right way to fight it is by making the case is not a good idea as part of a great deal as opposed to banning it from the korea at it. Just the state does not have the power to simply say to ban in oh what what teach, but what professors in higher education. each now, it gets a little more complicated when you talk about case through twelve, because this It has a role in deciding what public k through twelve teaches because they're, your kids, they, its taxpayer funded, and generally the legislature is involved There is democratic oversight of that process, so four k twelve is, also lean towards the left in terms of the administration and manages the curricula there there? There definitely is engage through twelve. That, though, I mean MIKE it's got a public school. I have a five in a seven year old and they have lovely teachers but we have run into a lot of problems with with education, schools at fire

and a lot of the graduates of education school on it being the administrators who clampdown on free speech in higher education, and so I've been trying to think of positive ways to take on some of this. Some of the problems that I see in case through twelve. I thought that the attempt to just dictate you, you won't teach the following ten books in our twenty bucks for two hundred bucks was the wrong way to do it now when it comes to deciding what books are in the curriculum again something a legislature. Actually you can't can have some say in and that's pretty uncontroversial and drums of the law. But when it comes to how you fight it, I add something that is in some kind of stuck with a formula I, Empowering of the american mind, I give principles that were inconsistent with the sort of group think and heavy emphasis on identity politics of that's the end. Some the critics are rightfully complaining about and k through twelve and we

we? That is actually in canceling of the american mind, but I have a more detailed explanation of it that I'm going to be putting up on my blog, the eternally radical idea, is it possible to legally. That's just silly question perhaps create an extra action for certain kinds of literature, nineteen, eighty four something to drink, in the curriculum authorities all protected. I guess he a yes to protect again. administrators from fiddling too much with the curriculum like stabilizing the curriculum I don't know what the machinery of the case of twelve public school in gave through twelve. You note that state legislatures in oak, under part of that. Does it serve their part of that and they can say it like. You should teach following books now, of course, people are always a bit worried that if you, if they were to recommend you, know, teach teach the declaration of independence in that, it will end up being while they're gonna teach declaration of independence was just to protect slavery, which net it wasn't. Yes, a teaching

I got the topic matter which textbooks you choose to which perspective you take all that kind of stuff. The answers like religion starts to creep into the whole question of like how you know is the boy largish into corporate, that their education. I mean I'm I'm an atheist with an intense interest in religion. Actually read the entire bible this year just cause. I do stuff like that and I never if she'd rather begun from beginning to end. And then I read the koran, because you know, and I'm going to try to do the book of mormon, but in a while they cited. Are you so fascinating do? command. Doing that, I think you should just to know. Is it such a touchstone in the way people talk about things. It can get pretty tedious but I even made myself read through all of the very specific

instructions on how tall the different parts of the temple need to be and how long the guards need to be in what shape they need to be and what they like and those go on a lot and there that that it surprisingly absurd. Surprisingly big chunk of exodus and at it I thought there was more like an leviticus into the remedy, but then he had to books like job no know wow, I mean job is such a red and no way job originally had that ending like your job is basically, it starts out of this perverse bet. between god and satan whether or not they can actually make a good man renounced initially, the cat is all going very predictably, and then they finally really torture job and he turned into the best. Why is god cruel? How could god possibly exist? How could a kind god do these things and he beat he turns and like the best lawyer in the entire world, any defeats? Everyone all people who come to argue with him. He BP argues the pants off of them and then suddenly

and god shows up and he's like. Well, you know I am everywhere and it's a very using answer. He gets it s kind of like I am there when, when, when lionesses give birth than I am there and by the way, there's a giant monster leviathan, that's very big! it's very scary and I have to manage the universe and I'm kind of like god. Are you saying that you're very busy is that it would be best? If is that, essentially your argument to job any don't mention the whole? You don't mention the whole kind of like that. I have a bet. That's why I was torturing you that doesn't come up And then, at the end he decided the gods decides like jobs like oh no you're totally right. I was totally wrong. Sorry and I and gods, if I'm going to punish those people who tried to argue with you and didn't, didn't win so so you get rid of look, though the I don't know exactly what he does to limit. Don't remember and He gives job all his money back and all and make some super prosperous and, unlike no

way. That was the original ending of that work like because this would like this was clearly a beloved novel that their alike, but it can have a guess how those initial ideas a lot the long ways- and I actually think it's worth while some of it was the euro- is gonna surprised when you end up in the part like gum. There are parts of it that wolf sneak up on you kind of icy as a trip ecclesiam ass these depression? He did. You said you also occur the crimes which was fascinating. So what is there to be innocent ass deserve attention between the study of religious. texts, the following a religion and just leaving in god, in following the various aspects of religion with freedom of speech. In the first amendment we have

the thing that we call the religion clause that I have never liked, calling it just that, because it's too brilliant things right next to each other. The state may not establish an official religion, but it cannot interfere with your right to practice. Your religion was just beautiful to that to do two things at the same time and I think they're, I think they're both exactly right and I think sometimes the right gets very excited to have the free exercise clause and the left gets very excited about establishment, and I liked the fact that we have where we have both of them together now. How does relate to freedom of speech and how's right to the curriculum like we are talking about and I actually think it would be great if public schools could teach the bible like in the sense of like read it as historical document, but back when I was They sell you every time I saw people trying this. It always turned into them actually advocating fur you know a catholic or a protestant, or some or orthodox, even kind of like reed on religion. So if you actually

make it into something advocating for particular view on religion than it processed into the establishment plus side. So americans have I figured out a way to actually teach it. So it's probably better that you, you know, learned and learn of outside of a public school setting is possible to teach religion from like a world religions kind, of course, without disrespecting their religions. I think the answer is. It depends on from whose perspective what like the practitioners say, you're like an orthodox follower of a particular religion yeah. Is it possible to not piss you off in teaching like all the major religions of the world, for some people it eat the bottom line? Is you have to teach it as true

ah and with that, under those conditions, then the answer is no. You can't teach about it without offending someone, at least, if you say these people believe it's true can reform. So you have to walk on eggshells, etc. You can try really hard and you will still make some people angry, but serious people will be like. Oh no, he actually tried to be fair to to to the beliefs here and I and I try to be respectful as much as I can about and allow this. I still find myself much more. and about buddhism and stoicism. No, where do I go what one interesting thing to get back to college campuses is the fire keeps the college free speech ranking yes at rankings dot the fire dot org, I am very proud of them. I highly recommend forget the even just the ranking to learn, about the universities from is entirely different perspectives. We are used to when they gotta pick one area.

Especially they want to go to. He just gives another perspective on the whole thing, and it gives quotes from people at nih or students there and so on, like that, but their experiences and and it gives different. Maybe you could speak to the the very measures here before we talk about who is top five and who's in the bottom? Five? What what? What are the different parameters that contribute to the evaluation? So people have been asking me since day, one to do a ranking of schools according to freedom of speech, and even though we had we had the best database in existence of campus speech. Codes of policies at universities have them, late first amendment or first meant norms. We also have the best database of of we called the dissimulation database, but is actually the it's better named platforms database, which is what what we're going to call it, and these are all cases where somebody was invited as a speaker to campers yet, and there were dis, invited

invited orkney platform and also includes shouting down, so they showed up. And then they couldn't really speaking exactly and and and so having that we really needed in order to have some serious social science to really make a serious argument about what the ranking was was to be able to one get a better sense of how many professor were actually getting punish during this time and then the biggest missing element was to be able to ask students directly what the environment was like on that campus for freedom of speech. Are you comfortable disagreeing? each other. Are you comfortable disagreeing with your with your professors? Do you think violence is acceptable in response to a speaker. Do think shouting. do things shouting down his okay. If you think blocking people's access to a speaker is ok and once we are able to get all those elements together, we first did did at a test run, I think and night twenty nineteen about fifty

and we ve been doing it for four years now, always trying to make the methodology more and more precise to better reflect the actual environment at particular. Schools and this year the number one school was michigan technological university, which was a a nice surprise. The number two school was actually auburn university and at which was a woot nice to see in the top ten The most well known, prestigious school is actually uv, which did really well this year, universe, chicago was not happy that they weren't number one but university, Chicago's, thirteen, they have been number one or in the top three four years prior to only silky, explain and so surprising, because of like the really strong economic liberalism like this are what why they had a cat involving a student, they wouldn't recognise a chapter of turning point usa and they may very classic argument that we and classic, and the bad way that we hear campuses across the country. Oh, we have accomplished republican

So we don't need this additional conservative group and, right now, I'm sorry like we ve seen dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of attempts to get this one particular, The conservative student student group, directly as you are not recognised, and so we told them like listen to like we told them at fire that we consider the serious and they wouldn't recognize the group so that that's a that that that's a point down in our ranking and it was enough to knock them from they probably would have been number two in the rankings, but now they're thirteen out of two forty, eight they're still one of the best schools in the country. I have no problem that the school that did not do so well at a negative ten point: six, nine negative, ten point: six nine and we rounded up to zero was harboured and harvard has been not very happy

with that result: the only school to receive the abysmal, ranking yeah and there are a cup o' harvard oh harvard, and there are a couple of people who have actually been really, I think, making a mistake by going very harvard and sounding by being like I've had statisticians look at this and they and they they. They think your methodology is a joke and an like pointing out- and this case wasn't that important and that scholar wasn't that scholar like the arc one of the arguments, what the scholars we counted against them for punishing. Was it that wasn't a very famous or influential scholar to peddle like so that your argument seems to be snobbery like essentially that, like you, you're not understanding our methodology for one thing and then you're saying that actually, that scholar was an important after

and by the way harvard by the way harvard and if we hurricane yeah. If we even if we took all of your arguments as true, even if we decided to get rid of those two professors and you would still be in negative numbers, you would still be dead last. You would still be after georgetown and penn, and neither of those schools are good for freedom of speech to say that The bottom five is the university pennsylvania nick said pen, the university of south carolina, georgia, university and Fordham university,

very well earned that they have so many bad cases at all of those schools. What's the best way to find yourself in the bottom five, if you're a university was, was the fastest way to that negative. To that zero, a lot of d platforming, I mean it that when we looked at the bottom five eighty one percent of attempts to get speakers d platforms were successful at the bottom five and that there were a couple of schools having pen included where every single attempt every time a student like objected, a student group objected to that speaker coming. They cancelled this. The speech- and I think I think Georgetown was one hundred per cent success I think penn had one hundred percent success rate. I think harvard did stand up for a couple, but mostly people got the platform there as well. So how do you push back on d platforming? Who who would do it? Is it other students? Is it got. It is that the administration was the dynamics of are pushing back of this because I imagine,

some of it is called sure I imagine every university has a bunch of students who will protest. Basically, every speaker and the question how you respond to that protest. Well, here's here's the dirty little secret about like the big change in two thousand and fourteen and and fire meet me in height, have been very clear that the big change that we saw on campus was that, for most of my career, students were great on freedom of speech. There are the best constituency for free speech absolutely unambiguously until about twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, And it was only in twenty fourteen, where we had this very kind of sad for us experience where suddenly, students were the ones advocating for deep black forming, and his speech, codes, kind of in a similar way that they had been doing and say like the mid eighties, for example, but here's the dirty little secret. It's not this it just the students, it's students and administrators, some that sometimes only a handful of them, though working together to make

it's great some of these problems, and this is exactly what happened at stanford when Kyle duncan a fifth circuit judge tried to see get my alma mater and a fifth of the class showed up to shout him down it was a real showing of the of what was what was going on that ten minutes into the shout down of a fifth circuit judge, and they keep on emphasizing that cause. I'm a constitutional lawyer, fifth circuit judge judges are big deals. They're one level below the supreme court and about a fifth of the school shows up to shout him down. After ten minutes of shouting him down at administrator, a dea administrator gets up with a prepared speech that she that she has written, that the seven minute long speech where she talks about free speech. Maybe the juice isn't worth the squeeze and we we were at this law school where people could learn to challenge these norms. So it's clear that there was coordination. You know amongst

but these administrators and from talking to students there they were in meetings, extensive meeting for a long time they show up do a shout down, then they take an additional seven minutes to two to lecture. The speaker on free speech is not that being that the juice free speech not being worth the squeeze and then for the rest of it. It's just constant heckling after she, after she leaves this is clearly and this is something very similar- you know- happened a number of times at yale, where it was very clearly administrators were helping along with with a lot of these disruptions. So I think every time there is a shout down at a university, the investigation should be first and foremost did administrators help create this problem.

they do anything to stop it, because I think what a ballade what's really going on here is the hyper bureaucracy, asian of universities, with a lot more idiot, logical people who think of them primary job as basically like policing, speech moral as their encouraging students. At this hour there encouraging students have opinions, they, like I'm sure, do shutdowns, and that's why the youth? They really need to investigate this that and it is at Stanford the administrator hoot, who gave the prepared remarks about the juice not being worth the squeeze. She has not been invited back to stanford, but she's. One of the only examples I can think of when these things happen. A lot word administrator clearly facilitated something that was a shout down or a platt forming or result didn't professor getting fired or resulted in a student getting expelled where the administrators has got off scot, free or proper We in some cases, even gonna promotion, Small number administrators, maybe in a single administrator, could participate

in the encouraging and the organization and thereby empower the whole process, and that's something I've seen throughout my entire career and the only thing is kind of hard to catch, this sort of in the act so to speak, and that's when the reason why it's helpful for people to know about this, you know because it there was this amazing case. This was at university of washington and we've actually featured this in a documentary made in two thousand and fifteen twenty came on twenty fifteen twenty. Sixteen called. Can we take a joke, and this was when we started noticing something changing on campus, we also comedians were saying that they can use their good humour anymore. This is right, on the time that jerry seinfeld and Chris rock said that they couldn't and while play on campuses, because they could take that that they couldn't be funny. But we featured a case of a comedian who wanted to do a musical called the path none of the musical making from the passion of grace with the stated goal of offending everyone every group. Equally, it was various very much a south park mission.

And it's an unusual case, because we actually got documentation of administrators buying tickets for angry students and holding an event where they, where they train them to to jump up in the middle of it, and shout I'm offended like they, they they bought them tickets. They sent them to this. This thing with the goal of shouting it down now. Unsurprisingly, when you send an angry group of students, to shut down a play it. It's not gonna end that just I'm offended and got heated. There were death threats being thrown the m the end, and then the pullman washington police told the chris Chris Lee the guy who made the play that he they wouldn't actually protect them. Now, it's not every day. You're gonna have that kind of hard evidence that that is, that of actually seeing the administrators be so so brazen that they recorded the fact that they bought them take off and sent them, but I think a lot about

is it is going on and I think that's the it's a good excuse to cut down on one big problems at higher education, which is hyper brok. Renovation then experiences there as their distinctive anti administrators and faculty in terms of perpetrators of this of these kids thing. So if we got rid of all like harvey's talked about get rid of a large percentage of the administration. Does that help fix the problem? Or is the faculty also yeahs? Small per cent of the fact he also part of the encouraging in the organization of these kind of council, and that's something that has been profoundly disappointing but when you look at the huge uptake and attempts to get professors fired, that we seen over the last ten years over the last twenty two years. As far back as our records go,

first, there are overwhelmingly led by administrators to attempts to get professors punished, and that was most of my career up until twenty thirteen was was fighting back in a minute. And excesses. Then you start having the problem and twenty fourteen of students trying to get people cancelled, at really accelerate in two thousand and seventeen, and the number so won't one way that one one thing that makes it easier to document is: are the petitions to get professors fired or punished, and how disproportionately that those actually do come from students, but another big uptick has been fellow messrs demanding that the other fellow professors get punished and then emmy new really said it's kind of shameful. You you shouldn't be proud of signing the petition to get your fellow professor and, what's with even more much more more shameful, is we get stuck this? This is that this is almost become a cliche within fire. When someone is facing the one of these cancellation campaigns, the professor, I would get letters from some of my fur

and saying I am so sorry. This has happened to you, and these were the same people who publicly sign the petition to get them fired. Yeah, yeah integrity, integrity, the important thing in this world, adding some of it. I'm so surprised people don't stand a more for this there's so much hunger, for if you have the guts as a faggot, administrative to really stand stand up with eloquence, with rigour with integrity. I feel like it's impossible framework to doing anything because their such hungary is so refreshing, yeah yeah. I think everybody agrees that freedom of speech is

good thing? Or I don't or oh okay? Sorry say I don't regret the damage, the majority of people even at the universities that there's a hunger, but it's almost like this kind of nervousness around it, because there's a small number of loud voices, yep they're doing the shouting. So I mean and that's that were great leadership comes, and so your presence in the universe. You should probably be making clear declarations of life, this is now this is a place where value the freedom of expression when it- and this was out this all throughout my career, a president, a university president who puts their foot down early and says no, we are not entertain in firing this professor we're not expelling the student. It ends the issue, often very fast, although and this is where he could really tell the administrative involvement. Students will do things like take over the president's office and then that take over will be catered, but he perversity people to point this out of time.

being kind of like. Oh, it was clearly they like become, but my friend sam abrams, when they tried to get tried to get him fired at at at Sarah lawrence college, and that was one of the times that that it was used as kind of like oh, that was hostile to the university because they, the students, took over the president's office and I'm like now they let them take over the presidents office, and I don't know if that was one of the cases in which the the takeover was catered. But if there was ever a sort of like a sign that is kind of like yes, this is This is actually really quite friendly, while in some says I protesting in having really strong opinions. Even like redeem this crazy while the pay is a good thing, just it shouldn't led to actual firing. Deploy forming a people that has got to protest is just not good. To have for university to support and take action based on it, and this was one of one of those like I'm tensions in in in first amendment that actually, I think, as a pretty easy release. Essentially, you have AP, you absolutely have the right to

devote your life to ending freedom of speech ridiculing as a concept and- and there are people who who really art can come off a very contemptible, but even the philosophy of freedom of speech, and we will defend your right to do that, we will also disagree with you. And if you try to get a professor fired, we'll be on the other side of that now. I think he had randy candidate, who I really love him. I think I think he's a great guy, but he's he criticised us for our deep flat forming database as saying this is saying that bert that students can't protest speakers like Ok, that's really a we hadn't fire as an organisation have defended the right to protest all the time we are caught, whitley defending the rights of the the rights protesters, not believing that the protesters have the right to say this would like, basically the that would be punishing. The speakers were not calling for punishing and that the protesters, but what we are saying is you can't let the protesters win,

demanding someone be fired for their freedom of speech, so the line there is between protesters protests the university taking action based in the protests, the exactly and, of course, shout downs that that's just mob censorship. And that something where the university, though the wave of the way you accurately you you deal with attention first, amendment lock is actually kind of, like the one positive duty that the government has the the first. The negative do different that it's not allowed to do is censor you, but it's positive duty is that, if, if I want to say awful things or for that matter, great things that aren't popular in a public park can't let the crowd just show me down. You can allow up what was called a headlong veto that so interesting. If you like that into play and social media is. You know, there's this whole discussion about censorship and freedom of speech. But to me

the carrot question is almost more interesting wants to. Freedom of speech is established is how you incentivize high quality debate in disagreement. I'm thinking a lot about that and that's what, if we talk about cancelling the american mine, is arguing towards truth and that council culture is through its merciless, its anti intellectual but also, I never get you anywhere near truth and you we're going to waste so much time, destroying your opponents in in something there and actually never get you to true through the process of course, of interaction get directly at truth, you just chippeway falsity yeah, but everybody having a megaphone on the internet with anonymity seems like is better than censorship, but if you're sectors incentives on top of that, you can construct to get to incentivize.

Discord yap his route to centre by somebody who puts a huge amount of effort to make even the most ridiculous arguments, but basically one that don't include. Among other things, you I lay in terms of other rhetorical tricks to shut down conversations, this make really good argue. for whatever it doesn't matter with its communism for fashion, whatever the heck you wanna say. Yet what do it was scale, historical context with what's still man, and yet aside, all this kind of elements. We try to make three major points in the book. One is just simply cancel culture is real, it's a it's a historic era and it's on a historic scale. The second one is, you should think of cancel call sure as part of a rhetorical as a larger leezie, rhetorical up approach to what what what what we refer to winning arguments without winning arguments, and we mean that in two senses

not having winning arguments or well, have actually having one arguments, and we talk about all that front what we call rhetorical fortresses that both the left and the right have that prevent you from that. Allow you to just dismiss the person or dodge the argument without actually ever getting to the substance. The argument, third part is just you know: how do we fix it, but the rhetorical fortress stuff is actually something. I've been am very passionate about because it it interferes with our ability to get at truth and it wastes time and and frankly, it also kind of sins council culture is part of that rhetorical tactic across the ruins It would actually be really fun to talk about this particular aspect to the book, and I highly recommend, if you listen to this, go pre order. The book now one is a comma october: seventy, ok, the cancelling or the american. My oh, that's all in a book you also have a list of cheap rhetorical tactics that both the left and the right?

use, and then you have a list of tactics that the left uses and the right uses, the other there's the rhetorical, the perfect rhetorical fortress that the left uses and the efficient rhetorical fortress that the right uses. Yeah first, One is what about ism. Maybe you can go through a few them that capture your heart in this particular moment. As we talk about it, if a few couldn't describe examples of it or theirs aspects of it, you see there especially affected effective, so what about them is defending against criticism of your side by bringing up the other side's alleged wrong doing. I wanna make little cards of views of all of you tactics and start using them on acts all the time because they are so commonly deployed, and what about? As am, I put first for a reason, you'll be in it

idea tat should integrate them into a twitter. Such acts were people still clicking heart, they can click which of the which are the rhetorical tactics. This is and then, Is it you know, there's actually community notes. If you ve seen annex three people can convey argued notes, It fascinating is really really well but two give it a little more structure, yeah, but that's a really interesting method, actually yeah. I actually, when I was thinking about ways that x could be used to argue towards truth. I wouldn't want to have it so that you know everybody would be bound to that, but I think that it, I imagine of being like a stream within acts that was truth focused that that agrees some additional additional rules on how they would argue man. I would love that were like theirs in terms of dreams the intersect and could be separated. The shit talking one where people just enjoy of londoners. Like truth,

and then to meet their like than theirs. Humor. Then there's a good vibes like yes, I'm not like somebody who absolutely goodbyes all the time, but sometimes if my that's nice, just log in and not to see like the drama, the fighting, the bickering that the solutions the mouths all this is good. Did you see that's why go to read? It are? Ah, or like what are the key animals once whenever this coup puppies and kittens I just want to see ryan singing with welfare oral amendment is sometimes this. I need that in my heart, yeah not all time just right back to the battle. For truth, so. What about is what about as a mere that's everywhere when it? When you look at it, when you look at twitter, when you look at

social media in general and the first look. What we call the obstacle course is: basically time tested old fashioned, you know an argumentative dodges that everybody uses and what about him? It is bringing up something you know like someone makes argument like Biden is corrupt and then someone says, will jump was worse in alike and that's not an illegitimate, you know argued to make back, but it does it. It seems to happen every time. Someone makes an assertion. Someone just points out some other thing that was going on and it can get increasingly attenuated from from from what you're actually trying to argue and when you, and that you see this all the time on social media and it's kind of you know I was a big, an of Jon stewart's daily show, but an awful lot of what the humor was and what the tactic was for arguing. Was this thing over here? It's like! Oh I'm, making this argument this important problem. Oh actually, you know there there there's this other problem over here,

there are more concerned about, and it is worth it dino and on the new lives of pick on the right here so january, six in a watching everybody arguing about chop in over like these that the occupied, seattle or the occupied part of portland and sir and basically trying to like, oh you bring it up but, though, the rat and january six, and by the way live on capital hills, so believe me, I was very aware of like how scary and bad it was and look at just my dad group in you. slavia, and that was a night where we all ate dinner in the basement, cause I'm like. Oh, when the shit goes down eaten the basement it was it was. It was genuinely scary and people were would try to deflect from january six being serious by actually be making the argument, oh well, they are crazy, horrible things happening in all over the country. You know riots for an update from that came from some of the social justice protests and, of course the answer is you can be concerned about both of these things and and find the

both problems. But you know, if I'm arguing about chop ninos, I'm a ring of january six. Isn't super relevant or I am arguing that January sex, someone bringing up the rights and twenty twenty isn't a helpful. We took a long doug ernie from what about is unfair and related to that. A straw, manning and steal men, so mr was eighty the perspective of there that the opposing perspective this is something also, I guess it's very prevalent as difficult to do the reversal which is still manning acquires empathy requires eloquence, requires understanding she doing research. I e the of the alternative perspective. My wonderful, employ angel and order has something that he call star manning and I find myself dip doing. This allows it's nice to have you, or to immigrant parents because I remember being in san francisco in the weird kind of like

sal you flash burning, kind of cohort and having a friend there who was an artist who would talk about hating, kansas and that mrs metaphor for middle america is what he meant by it and but he was gonna proud of the fact that he hated Kansas and I'm like you gotta Your stand? I still see all of you a little bit as foreigners and think about like change the name of kansas to croatia, you don't try to change the name of kansas to to to to some that's what it sounds like to me and the storm ending idea, which I, which I like is, is the idea so you're saying that you really hate your dominant religious minority like and that's when you start actually detaching yourself a little bit from it. How typical america is exceptional in number. One is, but some of our dynamics are incredibly temple it's one of the reasons why, like when people say- reading, thomas all, for example, they start getting hooked because one of things he does

It does comparative analysis of country's problems and points out that some of these things that we think are just unique to the united states exist in seventy. Five percent of the rest of the countries in the world frances hookey armas under the book than reading right now, origins article order actually does is wonderful job of pointing out how we're not special in a variety of ways. This is actually It is very much on my mind and fukuyama. Of course, it's it's it's a great book. It's not it's! Stilted, aluminum Writing, because his term for one of the things you concerned about what destroys societies is real. At romani elevation, which is the reversion to societies in which you favour your family and friends, and I, So we think a lot of what I'm seeing in sort of united states. It makes me worried that we might be going through a little bit of a process of re patrimonial elevation

as one of the reasons why people are so angry. I think, having built that, I think that the prospect that we need where we very nearly seemed to have an election that gonna be be a job bush verses. Hillary Clinton like are we a dynastic country now is. Is that what kind of happening but also it's one of the reasons why people are getting so angry about the about legacy admissions about. How much you know certain family seem to be able to keep their people in the upper classes. The united states perpetual and believe me like I was we were poor. When I was a kid and I went then I got to go to I got to go to one of the fancies. I got to go to Stanford and and I got to see how people they treat you differently in a way that almost insulting like a bit based. we like suddenly to a certain kind of person I was a legitimate person and I ll

Look at how much america relies on harvard on yale to produce its committees, a very marked zoning term ruling class, and that's one of the reasons why you have to be particularly worried about what goes on at easily colleges and easily colleges, with the exception university of chicago and and and uv. I do really badly regarding freedom of speech, and that has all sorts of problems with good, though that does not bode well for the future of the protection of freedom, speech for the rest of the society? So can you also empathize there with the folks who voted for down trump because as precisely that is a resistance to this kind of. Ah man, let him of the ruling class this this royalty, that passes on the are the rule, from generation to generation. I try really hard to empathize with two degree, everybody

and and and try to really see where they're coming from and and the anger on the right I get it I mean like I, I I feel like the the book so covering the american. I was a book that I that could be sort of a crowd pleasure to a degree partially, because we really meant what we said in the subtitle that these are good intentions and bad ideas that are hurting people. And if you understand it and read the book, you can say it's like. Ok, this isn't anybody being. malicious code, that is people trying to protect their kids they're, just doing it in a way that actually can actually lead to go anxiety, depression and strangely eventually pose a threat to freedom of speech, but in this one we can't be quite me and may have any mention my brilliant co, author ricky slot, but twenty three year old g

is ST cheat sheet. She's amazing. I started working with her when she was twenty. Who was my coauthor on this book. So when I'm saying we am talking about me and ricky, dilla, libertarian, libertarian journalist and journalists, He has a brilliant mind yet and what we can't actually write this in a way. That's too kind, because counselors aren't kind that there's a cruelty and mercilessness about it. I mean I start really depressed this past year. When I was writing it and they didn't even want to tell my staff why I was getting so anxious and depressed it's partially, because I'm talking about people who will you know in some of the cases we're talking about when you go to your house target your kids, and so so that's the long run away, saying the m. I I kind of can get what sort of drives the right nuts to a degree in this. I feel like they're, constantly feeling, like they're being gas, lit elite education is really insulting to the working class, like it

but the ideology that is dominant right now kind of treats mamma said thirty percent of the american public like there that we taught we developed this a little bit in the perfect rhetorical fortress like there to some some way ill legitimate and not worthy of respect. compassion. Yet the G8 leaders some that radiates. sell feeling a liaison radius from the people they go to these institutions when what's funny is that, though, the leaders has been repackaged as a kind of it masquerades as kind of infinite compassion that essentially it's based in a sort of a very. frank, overly simple ideology, oversimplify of simple ex explanation of the world of breaking people into group, some dumb just people on how oppressed they are on their on the internet. of the various identities and it came to them

I think initially with with with an appeal from a compassion core, but it gets used in a way that is, can be very cruel, very dismissive, compassion, less and allows you to not take seriously. Most of your fellow human beings is really weird that happened. Maybe you can explore why a thing that has tat sounds good. At first, there can be increased can become such a cruel weapon of cancelling hurting people and ignoring people. this is what you described with a perfect rhetorical fortress europe, which is the same question. Maybe you can elaborate. I want the perfect rhetorical fortresses, gas or the perfect rhetorical fortress is the way

that's been developed on the left to not ever get to someone's actual argument would I want to make a short like afloat short of that's about like yours. The argument- and here is the perfect fortress that will deflect you every time from getting the argument, and I started to notice this. Certainly when I, when I was a law school, that there were lots of different ways, you can dismiss people and perfect rhetorical fortress step. One- and I can the test of this because I was guilty of this as well- that you can dismiss people if you can argue that their conservative, they don't have to be conservative, to be clear. You just have to say that they are so I'd, never read thomas soul because his right winger. I didn't read camille paglia, because I was I somebody convinced me she was right. Winger, though there are lots of authors that and when I was in law school, it eat among a lot of very bright people,

It really was already an intellectual habit that if you could designate something conservative, then you didn't really have to think about very much anymore or take a particularly seriously the such childish way of arguing, but nonetheless, I engaged in it was a common tactic I even mentioned in the book? There was a time when a day a gay activist friend, whose I think decidedly to my left, but nonetheless had that pragmatic experience of actually being an activist said something like well just go somewhat. Conservative doesn't mean the wrong and I remember feeling kind of scandals, at that some level of his being like while I've come. It is not the whole thing. We're saying is that there is a kind of bad people about ideas. It just thrower a leg as a right winger. If you just throw that, don't have to think about it any more yeah and then it can, if you're popular enough, it can be those it can be kind of sticky. Yes like and it's weird because because it's effective, that's why it keeps on getting used it essentially it it should have hit someone's cut, because I

You know I have a great liberal pedigree. You know everything from working at the a c l: u to doing refugee law in eastern europe to an. I was part of an environmental during program for inner city high school kids in D c. You know I been I been I I I I can. You know defend myself as being on the left, but I hate doing that because there's also part of me: that's like okay. So what like? Are you really saying that if you can, logically make me argue were convince yourself than that. I'm on the right that you don't have to list them anymore and it can that's arguing lecture. and the reason why this has become so popular is because among or maybe maybe especially among elites, that it works so effectively as a perfect weapon that you can use uncritical. If I can prove you're on the right I don't have to. I don't have to think about you. It's no wonder that. Suddenly you start to see a scene, calling the acl you right wing and calling the new york times right wing, because it's been such an effective way.

to deal legitimize people at at as thinkers whip, reenrolled steven pinker, whose honour on our board of advisers here first to academia as being the left pole and that essentially it's it's a position that, from from that point of view, everything looks to it's right. It looks as if it's on the right and but once it becomes a tactic that we accept it and that's one of the reasons why I you know, I'm I'm I'm more on the left and but I think, of left of center. Liberal ricky is in a more conservative, libertarian and initially I was like. Should I be really be writing something with with someone who's more on the right and I'm like Absolutely I should be. I have to actually live up to what I believe on the stuff, because it's ridiculous that we have this primitive idea that you can dismiss someone as soon as you claim, rightly or wrongly, that are on the right. Well, I feel garden from wrong, but I like you, your recently call right wing fire me,

Do you, by association because of that debate on sale at the time the l a time all fun, let's launch of the only times? So yes, there's an arctic there's a debate here to watch exerting its available yet watch on video yet and in person, I can't wait to see it. A fire was in supporting the nellie tundra. scathing article about the devil in the debate, was basically a right, leaning right talking so much them back there at bury wasted, has great great project. The free press. I've been very impressed its covering stories that the that allow the media right or left isn't willing to cover and we did a. We hosted a with her. and we we wanted to make it as fun and controversial as possible, so fire and at the the free press, hosted a debate. Did the sexual revolution fail, so the debate was really exciting, really fun the side that said the sexual

revolution wasn't a failure there, that that grimes and sir hater were on one. If it was a nice midi thought, all night and we got a room. There was a review of it that was just sort of scathing about the whole thing. And an included a line saying that fire which claims to believe in free speech but only defends viewpoints. It agrees with. I can't believe I've even made it into the magazine, because it's not just calling us because, of course you know. The implication, of course, is that we're right wing and at which we're not actually the staff leans decidedly more to the left and to the right, but we also defend people all over the spectrum all the time. Like that something that that even the most minimal google search would have solved so like women give given alla time some heat on this, because it like yeah, if you said, in my opinion, the right wing. We would have argued back, You know I'm saying will hear hear it appears that the following fifty thousand

examples of of of us not being, but when you actually make the factual claim that we only defend opinions, we grew at first, but there's no way for us to agree with opinions, because we actually have a politically diverse staff, who won't even agree on which opinions are good and what opinions we have, but yeah I've ever added to a one time when someone did something like this would then, and they were just being a little bit flippant about kind of increasing being fine. I did it. Seventy tweet long thread they're just being like hey. Do you really think this is fine? I decided not to do that on this particular one, but the nice thing about it is it demonstrated to parts of the book canceling of the american mind, if not more one of them is dismissing someone, because they're conservative, and because that was the implication, don't have to listen to fire

or because they're conservative, but the other one is something a termite that I that I invented specifically for the way people argue on twitter, which is hypocrisy, projection hi, I'm person who only cares about one side of the political fence, and I think everyone else is ahead, I and by the way I haven't done any actual research on this, but I assume everyone else's a hypocrite, and you see this happen all the time. The the at in this happens the fire a lot some of it. Where is fire on this case and where we are I literally quoted in the link you just sent but didn't actually read, or it's like where's fire on. This is like here's, a here's, our lawsuit about it from six months ago and so have at it. It's a favorite thing and also jon stewart daily show.

like the the the the the un or what about as a man, they're kind of like idea that these people must be hypocrites is something that greatest comedy, but as far as actually a rhetorical tactic, that will get you the truth. Just assuming that your opponent or just accusing your cone opponent of always being a hypocrite, is not a good tactic for truth, but by the way it tends to always come from people who aren't actually consistent, unfree speech, themselves, so that hence the projection, but basically not doing research about whether the person is or isn't a hypocrite and assuming other, is a large fraction of others reading. It will also not do the research the and therefore this kind of statement becomes a kind of truthiness without a grounding in that

In reality, it breaks down that barrier between what is and isn't true, because if, if the mob says something is true, it's takes too much effort to correct it and there's three ways I want like. I want to respond to this, which is just giving example after example, of of times where we'd have defended people well on both sides of every major ish, basically every major issue, whether it is Israel, palestine, whether it's terrorism, whether it's gay marriage, we have been where abortion we have defended both sides of that argument. The the other part- and I call these the orphans of the culture war- I we want to urge the media to start caring about free speech cases that actually dont have a political violence that are actually just about good old fashioned exercise of power against the little guy or little girl or little group on campus or off camp us for that matter,

These cases happened with a lot of our litigation or just little people as regular people being told that they can't protest, that they can't hold signs and then the last part of the argument that I want people to really get is like yeah and by the way up right, wingers get in trouble too, and there are attacks from the left and you should take those seriously too. You should care when republicans get in trouble. You should care when California has a d. I a program that requires this and California. Community colleges has a d,

a programme that policy that actually requires even chemistry, professors to work in a different de ideas from intersection allergy to anti racism into their classroom into their syllabus, etc. This is a gross violation of economic freedom. Is it is it it is as bad as it is to tell professors what they can't say like we fought and defeated, and in florida is even worse to tell them what they must say. That's downright totalitarian and we're suing against this, and what I'm full? What what I'm saying is that it when you're dismissing someone from just being on the others, the other side, the political fence? You are also kind of claiming making a claim that none of these cases matter as well, and I want people to care about censorship when it even his pete against people they hate,

Censorship assessorship, if we can take their tangent briefly with d, I, the university equity and inclusion. What is the good and what is the harm of such programmes DE I, I know, people ready, I consultants or some the actually we have open. your friend, who ella very much who does D, I absolutely decent people. What they want to do is create by of understanding, friendship, compassion among the people, people who are different. Unfortunately, the research on what a lot of DE I actually does. This often has the opposite of that, and I think that it partially a problem with some of the ideology that come from a critical race theory that which is a real thing, by the way that that that inform lot of de I that actually makes it something more likely to divide than unite. When we talk about this in

calling the american mind as the difference between common humanity, identity, politics and common enemy, identity, politics, and I think that note some of the people that I know who do die. They really want it to be common humanity, identity, politics, but some of the actual ideological assumptions that are baked in can- actually cause people to feel more alienated from each other. Now, when I started at fire, my first cases involved nine, eleven and, and it was bad professors, were getting targeted Messrs were losing their jobs for saying, insensitive things about nine eleven and both, from from the right and the left. Actually it in that case actually sometimes more a lot more from the right and, and it was really bad and about five professors lost their jobs. That's bad five professors on or over a relatively short period of time, being fired for a political opinion that something that you would get written.

up in any previous decades were now evaluating, like how many professors have been targeted for cancellation between twenty fourteen and middle of this year, a July July of it of twenty twenty three wherein about well well over a thousand attempts to get professors of full of fire punished, usually driven by students and administrators, often driven by professors, unfortunately, as well about two thirds, of those result in the professor being punished in some way. Everything from

having their article removed to suspension, etc about one fifth of those result in professors being fired. So right now we're it's our it's almost two hundred around one hundred and ninety professors being fired, and so I want to give some context here that the red scare is generally considered to have been from nineteen. Forty seven to nineteen fifty seven, it ended by the way and fifty seven when it finally became clear and thanks to the first amendment that you couldn't actually fire people for the ideologies prior to that, a lot of universities thought they could they look. This guy is a very dark dark.

Winter communist, you know that can't be just waited, I'm I'm going to fire them and they thought they actually could do that, and it was only fifty seven when the law was established so like right now, these are happening, an environment where freedom of speech, academic freedom are clearly protected and eight at public colleges and in the united states, and we're still seeing these kind of numbers during during the of the red scare. The biggest study that was done of what was going on and I ve never schema like fifty five and the evaluation was that there was about sixty two professors fired for fur for being cut. It is about ninety something professors fired for political views. Overall, that, usually, is it. It is reported as being about one hundred. So sixty ninety one hundred, depending on how you look at it, I think the number is actually higher, but that's only because of hindsight, like that, what I mean by hindsight as we can

look back and we actually find there were more professors who were fired at that time reveals were at one hundred and ninety professors fired, and I still have to put up with people saying this isn't even happening and I'm like in the nine and a half years of cancel culture hundred ninety messrs fired in the eleven years of of the red scare, probably have somewhere around one hundred, maybe a probably more. It's got the numbers going to keep going up, but, unlike during the red scare, people could clearly tell something was happening. The craziest thing about cancer culture is some still dealing with people who are saying This isn't happening at all and it hasn't been subtle on campus and we know that's a wild undercut by the way, because when we, when we surveyed professors, seventeen percent of them said that they had been threatened with

a friend with investigation or actually investigated for what they taught said, o or or their research and one third of them said that they are told by administrators not to take on controversial research. So, like the extrapolation that out that that's a huge number and the reason why you're not going to hear about a lot of these cases is because there are so many different conformity inducing mechanisms in the whole thing, and that's one of the reasons why the idea that you'd add something like a d requiring a d. I statement too hired or to get into a school under the current environment is so completely nuts. We have had a agenda crisis of academic freedom over the last in a particularly since twenty seventeen on campuses, we have,

very low viewpoint, diversity to begin with, and under these circumstances, administrators to start saying, you know what the problem is. We have too much had had at her argenis thought we have we're not homogeneous enough. We we actually need, you know, grow. We need another political litmus test which is nuts and that's what a d I statement effectively is because there's no way to actually fill out a ds statement. Without someone evaluating you on your politics, it's crazy! It's crystal clear. We even did an experiment on this at night. Honeycutt he got something length almost like three thousand professors do participate, evaluating different kinds of de I statements, and one was basically like the standard kind of identity politics, their sexuality. One one was about viewpoint. Diversity one was about,

religious diversity and one was about socioeconomic diversity, and five were my heart really is it that we have too little socio economic diversity critically an elite higher at, but also in education period, so that the experiment with the large large participation, really only son, and tried to model the whale out of these d. I policies are actually implemented and one of the ways these have been implemented, and I think in some of the california schools is that administrators and go through the d. I statements before anyone else, looks at them and then eliminates people off the top, depending on how the how they feel about their die statements, and the one on viewpoint, diversity I think, like half of the people are reviewed, it would would eliminate right out, and I think it was basically the same for religious diversity. It was slightly better like forty percent for socio economic

first leaf. But that kills me like the idea that kind of like yeah. That actually is the kind of diversity that I think we need. A great deal more of in in higher education. You can agree with is not hostile to the other kinds by the way. But the idea that we need more people from the bottom in one of three quarters of american society like in higher education if it should be something we can all get around- that the only one that really succeeded was the one. That's that spouted back exactly the kind of that you know if the ideology that that they thought their the would like, which is like ok, there's no way this couldn't be a political litmus test. We proved that is a political and miss and still school after school. It is adding these two its application process to make schools still more ideologically homogenous. Why does I have a negative effect. Is it because it enforces have group think were people were afraid, start becoming afraid deserve thing can speak

freely liberally about whatever, but one it selects for people who tend to be furthered, the left, in a situation where you already have people a situation where universities do lean decidedly that way, but it also establishes essentially a set of sacred ideas that If you're being quizzed on whether and if you know what you ve done to advance and racism injured, though, how you ve been conscious of intersection anti. It's unlikely that you'd actually get anything. Said by the way? I actually think these are dubious concepts I think they're thin. I think they're philosophically not very defensible. They basically like. If, if your position was, I actually read, I actually reject these concepts it as being over simple you're, not you're, not gonna, get in and and- and I think that the person that I always think of that wasn't a right winger that would be like go to Hell.

If you, if you made him, feel one of these things out, it's fine man. I feel it if you get. If you gave one of these things to richard feynman he'd be like he would tear it to pieces. He knocked at the job. yeah there there's some element of it that creases hard to pin down fears. He said, like the firing. The thing I wanted to says: you're firing one hundred people, two hundred people. The point is even firing. One person I've just seen it it can create this quiet ripple effect of fear, of course, that single firing of a fact, oh absolutely has a ripple effect across tens of thousands of people of educators of of who is hired, what kind of conversations are being had had what kind of textbooks are chosen? kind of self censorship, indifferent. Flavors of that is happening. It's hard to measure that yeah I mean when you ask professors

are they intimidated and under the current environment? The answer is yes and politically conservative professors are already in a reporting that they're afraid for their jobs in london, gazes. You have a lot of good statistics in the book. Things like self censorship. One provide with the definition of self censorship. At least a quarter of students said they self censor fairly, often or very often, during conversations with other students, with professors and during classroom discussions. Twenty five percent, twenty seven percent and twenty eight per cent respectively, a quarter. Students also said that they are more likely to self censor on campus. Now at the time they were surveyed than they were when they first started college. So, colleges of instilling this idea of of censorship as our selfish and back to the red, care comparison, and this is one of the interesting things about the data as well. Is that that,

study that I was talking about, the most comprehensive study of the of the red square. There was pulling whether or not professors were self censoring due to the fear of the environment and nine percent of professor said that they were self censoring, their research what they were saying. Nine percent really bad that that's almost a tenth of professor saying that they were excluded. Their speech was chilled when we did this question for professors on our latest faculty survey. When you factor together, if there were, we asked them, are they sell censoring in their research or they sell central in class or the hills and censoring online etc? Ninety percent of professors so the idea that were actually in it in an environment that is historic terms of like house scared? People are actually of expressing controversial views. I think that its- if the reason why we're gonna actually be studying this in fifty years, the same the same way

I studied the red scare and it's not the the idea that this isn't happening, as will just be correctly viewed as insane. So maybe we can just the discuss the winning the current leaning of academia as the left, which you described in various different perspective, so wonders the voter registration ratio charter. You have by department, which I think is interesting. Can you explain this chart, and can you explain what it shows yeah when I started at fire in two thousand and one I didn't take the view in diversity issue as seriously I let us do something that right wingers complained about I'm really started to get what happens when Have a community with low with love viewpoint, diversity and actually a lot of the research that are most interested in was done in conjunction with the great cas einstein who writes a lot about group polarization because, as in the three

john. It's a very strong that essentially, when you have groups with political diversity, any easy. This actually judges, for example, that tends to produce. in a reliably more moderate. You know outcomes, whereas groups that art that have lope a political, adversely tend to sort of spiral. spiral off in their own direction, and when you have a super majority of people from just one political perspective, that's a problem for the production of ideas. It creates a situation where there are Sacred ideas and when you look at some of the departments- and you know I I think the asked the estimate from the crimson is- that harvard is- has three percent conservatives. But when you look at different There are elite departments that have literally no conservatives in them and I think that's that's unhealthy intellectual environment. The problem is definitely

worse as you get more elite, we definitely see more cases of lefty professors getting cancelled at less elite schools it it. It gets worse as you as as you get down from the the the elite schools. That's where a lot of the one third of attempts to get a professor's punish that are successful in urdu do come from the right and largely from off campus or off campus sources, and we spend a lot of time talking about that and and and the book, as well as something that I do think is under proceeded, but when it comes to the load, low viewpoint, diversity it it's you, it works out kind of like you expect to a degree in economics with what for to one or something like that is not as bad but then, when you start getting into some of the humanities like there are departments that there are literally none is zero, a good. Why, too, Why did the universities ignores the fact that the administration of the left yeah, I Don'T-

love, and this is an argument you'll sometimes run into on the left. Just the argument that, while people on the left just smarter right- and it's like- ok- it's it's interesting because at least the research as of ten years ago was indicating that if you dig a little bit We're into that a lot of the people who do consider themselves on the left and to be a little bit more libertarian. There's some of that pinker in a rut wrote a fair amount about the idea that we're just smarter. it it the days. That is not an opinion. I've got the least bit comfortable with. I do think that that it, that departments take on a momentum when they become a place, were you like wow. It would be really unpleasant for me to work in this department. If I'm the token conservative- and I think that takes on a life of it's own, there are also departments where

are a lot of the ideology, is kind of explicitly leftist li look at education schools a lot of the a lot of the stuff that has actually left over from credible. What is correctly called critical rate, the theories it is present and you end up having that in a number of the departments, and it would be. very strange to be a in many departments, amy servant of social worker professor after they exist, but it does a lot of pressure to shut up. If you are so the process on the left of cancellation, as you started to talk about the perfect rhetorical fortress first step is dismiss a person if they're, just if you can put a label of conservative on them.

You can dismiss him another way? What what other efficient or what other effective dismissal my arms are there we have a little bit of fun with with demographic members that I run this by height, and I remember being kind of like I don't don't, don't include the actual percentage they'll make. No, we need to include the actual percentages, because people are really bad at estimating what the what the demographics of the? U s actually looks like both the right and the left in different ways, We put in the numbers- and we talk about it- you note being dismissed for being white or being dismissed, fern being straight or being dismay for being mail, We and you cannot dismiss people for being conservative and we so weak. We we give examples in the book of of these being used to dismiss people and oftentimes on topics, not real lead it to the fact that their mail or whether or not their minority, and then we get too. I think it's like layer six and we like surprise, guess what you're down two point: four percent of the population and not of

matter, because if you have the wrong opinion, even if you're in that point, four percent of the most intersection personal ever lived and you have the wrong opinion- you're a heretic and you actually probably will be hated even more and the most interesting part of the research we did for this will just asking every prominent a black conservative and moderate that that that we knew personally, have you been hold that you're not really black for an opinion you had previously go. One of them was like oh yeah, now, every kind of funny it's like oftentimes white lefties telling them that, like our do you consider yourself black John with Border talked about having a reporter when he talked about when he showed that he descended from some of what he described as kind. I woke racism. In his book. What woke ideas that reporter actually is like, so do you consider yourself black he's like what will you like? What are you crazy? Of course I do and coleman hughes had one of the best quotes on it. He said I am constantly being told that the most important thing

to the how legitimate my opinion is, is whether whether or black, but then when I have a dissenting opinion, I get told I'm not really black so perfect, like it. There there's no way to falsify this argument, that. One really that that investigation really really struck me so emulate laid aside willingness in the book that there is this process a thing: are you conservative? Yes, you can deduct dismissed. person now are you why this, MR persson, I you mail in dismissed the person, there's these categories that make it easier for you to dismiss, persons. Ideas based on that and, like you said you end up in that tiny percentage figure stood the isthmus and it's not just dismiss. I would we talk about this from up from a practical standpoint. The way the limitations on in reality, and one of them is time and a lot of cancel culture as well as as cultural norms as this away,

his arguments without winning arguments is about running out the clock, because, by the time you get down to the bottom of the of the actually even get a couple steps into the perfect coral fortress, and you know where has the time gone? You know, like the the the your your diet you probably just give up, up trying to that the untried to actually have the argument that you never get the item in the first place and the all of these things are pretty sticky and social media also meet in practically invented the perfect adorable fortress, so they eat One of those stages has a virality to it. Yet so he could he could stick in a game. but really excited about love, you'd feel outrage. superiority yeah because of that at the gale of morality allows each never get to the actual discussion of the point. So, but you know it's not The left is the re shore also say efficient, rhetorical fortress, so there is something to be proud of on the right is more efficient So you don't have to listen to liberals and anyone could be but the level of if they ever

opinion that sea liberal and left and left this all used in the same kind of way the others left this nonsense. You don't have to listen to exports, even conservative experts if they have the wrong approach. And you don't have to listen to journalists, didn't conservative journalist if they have the wrong opinion and among the mega wing, there's a fourth proposition, there's a fourth provision I don't need to listen to anyone who isn't pro trump yeah and we call it efficient because it it eliminates a lot of people. You probably should listen to at least sometimes it'll like when we point out sometimes like I'll cancel culture can interfere with faith and expertise, so we get kind of being. little suspicious of experts, but the same time. If you follow that and you follow it mechanically, and I definitely you know, I think everybody in the: u s probably has some older uncle who exercises some of these. It is a really efficient way to sort of sawyer a while yourself

from the rest of the world and dismissed at least some people. You really should be listening do, the way you laid out, I mean we realise that we just take up so much of our brain pass on these ties things it is literally time could be solving things and you get where you kind of exhaust yourself through this process of being outrage. Based on these labels, and you never get dashi. There's almost none of time for empathy for like looking at a person thinking well maybe they're right, guess, you're so bissing category. I thank them for that. It's a fun and empathy, and I mean what's so interesting about this- is that so much and societal energy seems to be spent on these nasty primal desires were essentially a lot of like. Please tell me home allowed to hate it. What what work and a legitimate lee be cruel. Where can I actually exercise some aggression against somebody and it seems too sometimes be just finding new justifications, for that?

and it's an understandable, you know, human failing that it sometimes can be used to reduce defend justice. But again, it will now we'll get you anywhere near the truth. One interesting crazy! You cover about expertise is with covered near, so how to cancel culture come into play on the topic of code yeah. I think the covert was a big blow to people's faith and expertise and cancel culture play too big On that, I think one of the best examples of this is jennifer say at levi's. She is a lovely woman she was a vice present, leave eyes? She talked about actually potentially could be the president of levi's genes and she was a big advocate for kids

and when they started shutting down the schools. She started saying this is going to be a disaster. This is going to hurt the poor and disadvantaged kids the most. We have to figure out a way to open the schools back up and that with such a hurry the core points of view and the typical kind of catholic culture wave took over his all sorts of petitions were to be fired and that she needed to apologise and all kind of stuff, and you know she was offered. I click on a million dollar severance which you wouldn't take cause. She wanted to tell the world what she thought about this in the end that she wanted to continue saying that you haven't changed your mind that this was a disaster for young people and now that's kind of conventional wisdom and the research is pretty. It is quite clear that this was devastating to two particular does disadvantage. Use like people understand this net as well as being ok, I'm issues problem

right, but one of the one of the really sad aspects of cancer culture is people forget why you were cancelled and they just no? They hate you there's a lingering kind of like why don't have to take them seriously, but by the way north, they happen to be right on something very important. Now one funny thing about freedom of speech, freedom of speech wouldn't exist. If you didn't also have the right to say things that were wrong, because if you can't age and idea for you if you can actually speculate, you'll, never actually get the something. That's right in the first place, but especially galling when people who were right we're censored anyone at and never actually get the credit that they deserve. Will this might be a good place to ask a little bit more about the famous beach and, did you say,

is that including the freedom of speech is to say things that are wrong yep and what is your perspective on hate speech? Hate speech is the best marketing campaign for censorship and it came from academia and of the Torah of the twentieth century and that when I talked about the anti free, speech, movement that was one of their first inventions there. There was a lot of talk about critical race theory and and and being against critical race theory, and fire will sue if you said that people can't advocate for it or teach it or research it, because you do absolutely have the right to to pursue it academically. However, every time someone mentioned crt, they should also say the very first project of the people who founded seniority, Richard Delgado Mary met, suda etc was to go, was to create this

category of unprotected speech called hate speech and to get it banned. Personal enabled. This draft, of course, was Herbert more coups in nineteen sixty five in a basically questioning whether or not free speech should be a sacred valley. on the left and he was on the losing side for a really long time. The liberals, you know the way I grew up that was basically being pro free speech, was synonymous with being a liberal, but that started to be etched away on campus and the way it was was with with the idea of hate speech and that that essentially, oh, but you should- and we can designate particularly bad speech as not protected and and who's going to. Where's it who's gonna decide what hate speech actually is well, it's usually overwhelmingly can only happen in environment of really love. You

what diversity, because you have to actually agree on on what the most hateful and wrong things are and there's a thought, a bedrock principle that it's referred to this and in a in a great case, about flag burning and in the first amendment that I think all the world could benefit from. You can't ban speech just because it's offensive, it's too subjective it basic It's one, the reasons why they, these kind of codes have been more happily adopted in places like europe, where they have a sense that there is a modal, german or a modal englishmen, and I think this is offensive, and therefore I can say that this is. This is wrong in eight more multi cultural and in a genuinely more diverse country, that it's never actually had an honest thought that there a single kind of american, though them there's never been like. We had. We had the idea of uncle sam without always kind of a joke. Boston

I always knew it wasn't. Richmond always knew it wasn't. George always knew it wasn't near alaska, like what we've always been a hodge podge, and we get in a society that diverse that you can't ban things simply because they're offensive and- and that's that's one of the reasons why hate speech is not an unprotected category of speech, and I and I go further. My theory on freedom of speech is slight: different than most other constitutional order, and I think- and I think that's partially, because some of the ways of some of these theories, although of them are really good, are inadequate, they're, not expansive enough, and I sometimes my theory, the pure informational theory of freedom of speech, at our Sometimes, when I wanna be fancy the lab in the looking glass theory and its most important tenant is that there is it. If the goal is the product of human knowledge, which is to know the world it is, is

you cannot know the world as it is without knowing what people really think and what people really think is an incredibly important fact to know. So. Every time you actually saying you can't say that your actually depriving itself of the knowledge of what people really your causing, but will at timber crown. Was it was on our board of advisers, calls preference false vacation. You end up with an inaccurate picture the world which, by the way, in a lot of cases, brick because there are activists who want to restrict more speed, they actually tend to think that people are more prejudice the night, then they might be an actually these kind of restrictions. There was a book called racial paranoia that came out and about fifteen years ago there was making the point that the imposition of some of these codes consent. Make people think that the only thing holding you back from being a aging racist,

these codes, so must be really really bad. It can actually make all these things worse and one which we talk about in the book. One very real, practical way it makes things worse is when you censor people it doesn't change their opinion. It just encourages them to not share it with people who will get them in trouble, so it leads them to talk to people who they already agree with, and group polarization takes off. So we we have some interest. down in the book about how driving people off of twitter, for example, in about in twenties as seventeen and then again I think, and twenty twenty driving people, the gab led to greater radicalization among those people, it's very predictable force. Censorship was actually change people's minds and pushes them in directions that actually buy varies.

well, the research will actually make them more radicalized. So yet I I think that the I I think that the attempt to ban hate speech it doesn't really protect us from it, but it gives the government such a vast, a weapon to use against us that we will regret giving them Is there a way to serve to look at extreme cases to test the said out? A little bit can't campers yeah. What's yours you about allowing say white supremacists on campus to do to the speeches or kkk. I think you should be able to study what people think and I think it's important that we actually do so. I think that you know, let's take, for example, q and on yak you're, not wrong, and what? Where did it come from? Why

did they think that, what's the motivation who taught them at who came up with these ideas, this is important to understand history, that under the important understand modern american politics, and so, if you put your act, if you put your scholar had on and which you should be curious of a kind of everyone about what they're coming from Darrell Davis, who, I am sure you are familiar with part of his goal, was just simply to get to know where people are coming from and in the process he actually de radicalized number of clans members when they actually realized that this black man there would befriended them actually was Compassionate was a decent person. They realize other preconceptions wrong, so it can have a d radicalizing factor by the way, but even when it doesn't it still really important to know what the bad people in your society think honestly in some ways its owed for for your own. Safety is probably more important to know what the bad people in your society actually think. I personally know what you think about, thereby preventing them

freedom of speech in case, like that, I can't I can't campers- can do more harm in the short term. But my What benefit in the long term, because even sometimes argued for like this is going to her in the short term. but I mean harvey said this as a consider. The alternative yeah, because you just kind of made the case for like this potentially would be a good thing in even in the short term, and often is, I think, especially in a stable society like ours, with a strong middle class, all these kinds of things where people have like the comforts to reason through things yeah. But you know to me it's like, even if it hurts in the short term, even if create more heat in the short term. The freedom of speech has this really beneficial thing, which is it to move towards the truth, entirely society towards a deeper, more accurate understanding of law,

on earth of society, of how people function were of ethics of metaphysics varying and that in the long term, is a huge benefit it, gets rid of the nazis in the long term, even if it adds to the number of nazis in the short term, What a meanwhile just effort for and the reality check bar this is people always bring up. What about it an on campus. I'm like they're, never invited the the the the I haven't seen a case where it where they have been invited, and usually this the le clan argument gets thrown out when people are trying to excuse and that's why we shouted down Ben Shapiro and that's why I you can't have bill Maher on campus. That's why you know at at it's like. Okay, do you know the edit? So it's a little bit of that. What about ism and about being like well that thing over. There is terrible and therefore this comedian shouldn't come as I do have a question. Maybe by way of advice, sure you know interviewing folks and seeing this I got like a podcast is applied

form in deciding who did you're, not my something I have to come face to face with the other occasion, my nash, inclination before the progress was, I will talk to anyone and including people, I'm still interested in words, the current members of the gay cat k and to me there is a responsibility, do that was skill. Yeah and responsibly it's been weighing heavier and heavier because you realize how much skill it actually tastes, because you have to know to understand so much cause I have I have. come to understand that the devil is always to be charismatic. The devil's I'm gonna, look like the devil and saw you have to realise that the you can't always come to the table with a deep compassion for another human being out of you know, compassion and another. Ninety percent deep historical knowledge about

the context of the battles around this particular issue- and I take it- a huge amount of effort, but at around there's thoughts you have about this. How to handle speech. In a way without sense, ring bringing it to the surface, but in a way that is more love in the world. I remember Steve Bannon got this invited from the new yorker festival and Jim carry freaked out. In all sorts of other people freaked out and got this invited from from the and I got invited to speak on Mercato about this. I was saying like listen. He you don't have people to your conference because you agree with them like that's the way we have to get out of this idea that that's because they were trying to make it sound like that's an endorsement of Steve Bannon like that's nonsense like or if you actually look at the opinions of all the

well? Who are there? You can't possibly endorse all the opinions and all these other people were gonna, be there actually have and in the end, the process to make that argument. I got an end also worth mentioning that the very classic, it's very valuable to know it's on Wednesday Ben. I think you should be curious about the and I remember someone arguing back saying what will You want someone interview, jihadi and, unlike because at the moment, late, but it was- at the time when, when isis was brilliant in a go and gone for it- and I was like, would you not want to go to a talk where someone was trying to figure out what? What makes some of these people tech, because the end that changes? Your framing, that essentially it's like? No, it's curiosity it it is the co is secure. for a lot of stuff, and we need a great deal more curiosity in a lot, less unwarranted certainty and as a quest- like how'd you conduct. Such corporations and I feel deeply under qualified putting extra, especially good at that,

feel like documentary film makers usually do a much better job and the best job as usual done by biographers yeah. So the more time you give to a particular, conversely, as they really deep thought and historical context in studying the people, how they think, looking all different perspective. Looking at the psychology of the person, you are bringing their parents their grandparents. All this, the more time you spend that the better, the better. The quality of the conversation is because you get to understand the you get to really empathize with the person with the people he or she represents yeah, and get to see the common humanity all of this in india Viewers are often don't do that. Work yeah so, like the best of I've, seen his interviews they're part of a document yeah, but even now, documentaries, a light is a huge incentive to do as quickly as possible is not

send to really spend time of the person. There is a great new documentary about floyd abrams that I really Recommend we did it community about ire glasser called mighty ira with which was my video team and my protegee nikko primo and Chris moby, an errand reese put it together, and it's just follows the life in times of of arrogance after the former head of the c l. U e chiesa! If, if you could just linger on that, that's a fascinating story! Oh yeah who's, our amazing ira, He wasn't a lawyer. He started work in the and n Y c l, u the new york civil liberties union back in, I think the sixties. He was, I think Robert Kennedy recommended that that he go in that direction and and he, He became the president of the essential you right at the time that there are suffering from defending the nazis skokie, an ego and at an errand and Chris put together this and they they'd never done doc

before and it came out so so well and it tells the story of the nazis in skokie. It tells the story, if the case around it, tells the story of the ac all you at the time and what a great leader IRA glasser, was and was one of the things that's so great is like. When you get to see the nazis at skokie, they come off like the idiots that you would, back them to their there's a moment when that, when the rallies not going very well and endless, the leader gets flustered and it almost seemed like you like shout out kind of you, you're you're you're, making this nazi rally into a mockery, and so each showed how actually allowing the nazis to speak. It's a skokie kind of took the wind out of their shells like it. If they had they the whole movement that, like everybody, just kind of it all kind of dissolved after that, because- like racist fools that they were, they were, you know even blues brothers made job, you jokes about them in it and it didn't turn into the disaster

that people thought it was going to be just by letting piloting- speak an IRA glasser. Ok, so he has this wonderful. story about how Jackie Robinson joined the brooklyn dodgers and how There was a moment when it was seeing. Someone asked, american, as on their literally on their team, and how that really got em excited about the cause, of racial equality, and that became a big part of what his life was, and I Just think of that, such a great metaphor is mixed. banding your circle and seeing more people as being quite literally on your team, is the solution to so many these problems. And I worry that one with that, one of the things that is actually just a fact of life and in america's like we do so if each other more as enemy camps as as opposed to people on the same team, and that was action. something in the early days like me and will clearly, the legal director of fire wrote about leaf forthcoming free speech challenge of everyone being on facebook and one day

I was hoping was that, as more people were exposing more of their lives. We'd realize a lot of these things. We knew intellectually, like kids, go to the bar and get drunk and do stupid things, and that's that when we started seeing the evidence of them doing stupid things that we might be shocked at first, but then eventually get more sophisticated and be like what People are like that that never actually really seems to happen that that that I dont think that I think, There are plenty of things we know about human nature. We know about dumb things be we'll say, and we even we ve made it into An environment where there's just someone out there be waiting to be kind of like over Damn thing you said we were fourteen, while I going to make sure that you don't get into the teach your dream school because of that this offence argue energy is not my turbo and I'll get a great. Now, the greater we steal from the best digging through some was past. Commas defies peace. There has an aged well

ones tactical like that that one is just someone not being apathetic their like. I'm would punish you ve for this or that he's a Y got depressed running this book because you know I'd is our it's already there's already people who don't love me because of coddling the american mind, usually based on a misunderstanding of what we actually said and cuddling in the american mind, but nonetheless, but on this one, you know like I'm, calling out people for being very cruel and a lot of cases, but put. But one thing that was really scary about studying a lot of these cases is that once you have that target on your back, what they're going to try to counter, will you for could be anything. You know that they might go back and dear old yoda. Your boats find something that you sudden. Ninety. Ninety five, you know you know do do something where Essentially, it looks like its entire other thing, but really what weathered it's going on as they don't. Like your opinion, they didn't like your point of view, one something and they're gonna find out find a. That from now on any time your name comes up. Like all remember this, this thing

and like about em and its again, it's rule. Does it get you anywhere closer to the truth? And but it is a little scary debts to connect up look at in terms of solutions. The aghast give you think so. One parenting yeah fibres seven year old, so I'm sure you've figured it all out, then, oh god, no from a free speech, perspective yeah from a free speech, culture perspective how to be a good parent yeah. I think the first quote already. You should be cultivating in your children if you want to have a free speech. Culture is curiosity

and an awareness of the vastness that will always be unknown and getting my kids excited about the idea. That's like working to spend our whole lives learning about stuff and it's fast and exciting and endless and will never make a big dent in it. But the journey will be amazing, but only fools think they know everything and sometimes danger for that that so giving the sense of intellectual humility early on being also do no good at dangling that actually do some kind of old fashioned like, but I say things to make it like. Listen. If you joy study and work, both things that I very much enjoy, I do for fun if is going to feel great and it's going to be it's easy. So somebody something you some of those old fashioned virtues of things. I try to preach, intuitive stuff like outdoor time playing

in time that are not intermediate mediated experiences is really. It is really important and little things like I talk about in the book about when my kids are watching something that scary an amount talkin about like zombie We are talking about like a cartoon that, as Canada scary moment and saying that they want to turn the tv off, and I. Talk to them and I say: listen I mustn't next. You gonna finish the show And I want you to tell me what you think of of this afterwards. I sat next to my sons and by the end of it every single time? I you know when I asked them was as scary as you thought it was going to be and there was no daddy- that was fine, like that's one of the good lessons in life, the fear that you don't go through because- much bigger in your head than actually simply facing it. That's all there is one fine back against this culture. I'd love the universe,

our kids to be able to grow up in an environment where people give you grace, and you know the accept the fact that sometimes people are going to say things that piss you off takes Firstly, the possibility might be wrong and the precarious lime. I have hoped that thing you mentioned, which is because so much of the young people stuff, is on the internet that they're going to give each other break Everybody's gets away, generation, z, hates cancer, culture, the most and thus another reason why it's like people still claiming this has been happening. If god like now, you actually can ask the kids what they think of agriculture and they hate it we're gonna think of them is like the immune system that sake it's the culture waking up till it does not I am glad, though I mean I am one of those kids who will be no is They glad that I was a little kid in the eighties and emma teenager in the nineties because having every,

potentially online it's it's not at an upbringing envy. Well, I guess you can also do the absolute free speech. I like leaning into where I hope for future work. A lot of our insecurities flaws, everything's out their yeah en gb raw, honest with it. I think that leads to a better world, because the flaws beautiful and it has the flaws as the basic ingredients. If human connection rubber right, he wrote a book on on buddhism, and I talked about trying to use social media from a boot from a buddhist perspective and like as if europe, as if it's the collective unconscious meditating and seeing those little like angry bits that are trying to cancel your get you to shut up and just kind of like letting them go there

then where's was to watch her thoughts kind of trade off. I would love to see that like visualized, Wouldn't really, wherever the drop we're goin on going on just seeing the sea of it, of the collective consciousness proper the saying this and having a little like panic, attack and his colleagues. Reading it. In look looking at the little Sarah hateful angry voices kind of pop up and be like okay, there you are- and I'm still focused on on that thing, because that is that that is one of the things is okay. Actually, it was probably late in the game to be too giving me my grand theory about this stuff, but never to the so so when I was studying in law school and I ran out, offers a memo classes. I decided to study censorship during the tutor dynasty because that's where we get our ideas of prior restraint, that come from the licensing of the printing press, which was something that Henry the eighth was the first to do where. Basically, the idea was that, if you can

print, anything in england. Unless it's with these, your your majesty approve printers. It will prevent radical work and anti henry the eight stuff from coming up, pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty efficient idea. If nothing else- and I always at so he pizza we're getting angry at the printing press around fifteen twenty one and then pass something that required prints for a prince to be along with parliament and in a fifteen thirty eight. and I always think of out of come like where we are now, because we have this, we had their back than we had the region disruptive technology. Now, writing was probably, but that the next one which which was the printing press, would will absolutely collapse. And I mean, and I and I am able to say calamitous on purpose, because in the short term the witch hunts went up like. Raise ii, because the printing press allowed you to pay to get that manual on how to find witches that leave.

Religious wars went crazy that we let the lead to all sorts of distress misinformation nastiness. and henry the eighth was trying to put the genie back in the bottle. You know he was kind of like I I can I can. I want to use this for good. Like, like, I feel like it could, it could be used, but he was in an unavoidable bull period of epistemic anarchy. There's nothing you! due to make the period after the printing press come came out to be a non disruptive, non crazy period other than like tote, absolute totalitarianism and destroy all the print bat presses, which would simply was not possible in europe. So I feel like that's kind of like where we are now that disruption came from adding, I think the several milk in people to the european numbers nation that eventually the global conversation, but eventually it became the best tool for discomfort. Nation forget road of falsity free spotting, bad ideas and it's the benefit

the long term benefits of the printing press are incalculably great, and that's what gives me some optimism for where we are now with social media, because we are in that unavoidably anarchical period, and I do worry that that their that their attempts in states to pass things to try to put the genie back in the bottle like if we ban tik tok or we ve done say that nobody under eighteen can be on the on the internet unless they have parental permission were going at something that no amount of sort of top down is going to be able to fix it. We have to culturally adapt to the fact of it and do it in ways that make us wiser. that actually allow it potentially to be that wonderful engine for confirmation that were nowhere near yet by the way, but think about additional millions of eyes on problems. Thanks thanks, the printing press helped create

scientific revolution, the enlightenment, the discovery of ignorance We now have added billions of eyes and voices to solving problems and we're just more using them for cat videos and cancelling that those are just the early days of the printing press all starts with the cats and the cancelling a. Is there something about x about twitter, which is perhaps the most energetic source of cats and cancelling it seems like the collective unconscious of the species. I mean like gif, it's one of the things where the tendency to want to see patterns in history sometimes can limit the actual bat shit crazy experience of what history actually is because, yes, we we we have these nice comforting ideas that it's going to be like last time. We don't know it it it it it. It hasn't happened yet, and I think how on

usual twitter. It because I think of it as like that, because because people talk about writing and mass communications and god as being, expanding the size of our collective brain, but now our kind of looking at our collective brain in real time and its filled, just like our own brains, with all sorts of like little crazy things that pop up and and and and appear like virtual particles, gun of all over the place of of people. You know reacting in real time to things. There's never been anything even vaguely like it, and it can be at its worst awful to see at its best, sometimes seeing people egg, just getting a euphoric overs thing going on and cracking absolutely brilliant, immediate, jokes and at the same time it can be. It can even be it a joyful experience. I feel sick and I

live in a neighborhood now on x, where I mostly deal with people that I think are actually thoughtful, even if I disagree with them and in its not such a bad experience. I occasionally run into those other sort of what I call neighborhoods an annex where it's just all canceling all nastiness and it's always kind of an unpleasant visit to those places. I'm not saying the whole thing needs to be like, like my experience, but I do think that the reason why people keep on coming back to it is it reveals raw aspects of humanity that sometimes we prefer to Ten don't exist, yeah, but also holding you, like, you said, yeah, just a verbally the speed. News travels that opinions travel, that the battle over ideas, travels battle of information do yeah. What is true or not lies travel them. They all mark twain thing pretty fast and the thing It changes your understanding,

how to interpret information because a stretch out to know- and I remember to get off at sometimes. Yes, that's a pretty bad on mental health with with with young people and I'm definitely in the camp of people who think that social media is part of that. I understand in the debate, but I'm pretty persuaded that one of the things that is hasn't been great for mental health. I mean of people. Is this just constantly being exposed? Yeah? Absolutely I I think it's possible. To create social media that make a huge amount of money, makes people happy to me. I guess possible, to line the the incentives in terms of yet make teenagers making every stage of life.

Giving you long term, fulfillment and happiness with your physical existence outside of the social media and on social media, helping you grow as a human being helping challenge just the right amount and just the right amount of cat videos. Whatever gives this for rich human experience. I think it's just a machine learning problem. It's not the easiest thing to create a feed, so the easiest feed you could do is like maximizing agent but jessica. Really dumb algorithm is due for the for the outgoing to learning for by you to understand what will make it truly happy as a human being to grow long term that just a very difficult problem solved. Iraq flee bag, that's apsley, brilliant a show, and it sets you up when the relied like people love it. So much as it sets you up that you're watching like a are wrong. She, british sex in the city, except the main character, is the most promiscuous one

it's like a guy, and you gotta have earlier idle about this kind of funny, it's gonna cute and what kind of spicy then, then you realise that the person is actually kind of suffering I haven't heard time and it gets deeper and deeper, as the show goes on, and she will do these incredible speeches about tell me what to do like. I just I know There's experts out there. I know there's knowledge out there. I know there's an optimal way to live my life, so why, someone just tell me what to do and in its is wonderfully like accurate. I think aspect of human desire that what if something could actually tell me the optimal way to go, because I There is a desire to give up some

have your own freedom and discretion in order to be told to do the optimally right thing, but that path scares me to death. That will see the way you phrased. It does add. Miss scares me too. So there's several things in one. You can be constantly distracted, tiktok way by things that keep you engaged so removing there Giving you a bunch of options constantly and learning from long term. What results in your actual long term happiness like one. shhh amounts of challenging ideas are good for you that you offer for someone like me or, but there is a number like that for you drag like that for me, That number is pretty high. I love debate. I love I. I love the feeling of lake realizing holy shit. I've been wrong as for like urine and that I would love for the elderly to know

about me in to help me, but always given me options if I want to descend into a video so on educational aspect that yes, education. Yes, like the idea of kind of like both going the speed, You need to and running as fast as you can yeah, That is the whole flow thing I feel you do. Recommendation for better or worse, if used correctly, if using it as a pretty good job, whenever I just refused to click on stuff, that's just dopamine based and click on, only educational things here the recommendation and provides a really damn good. So I feel I guess a solvable. Probably lessons in the space of it location of challenging yourself, but also expanding your realm of knowledge it's kind of stuff, and I'm definitely more in the wearing inescapably an article period and require require big cultural adjustments and there's going to it, there's no way that this isn't going to be difficult transition. Is there any specific

little or big things like this, he acts do twitter. Do I have a lot of our term map the printing press and extra millions of eyes on any problem. Can too or down any institution, any any person or any idea, and that's good in some ways, because a lot of medieval institutions needed to be torn down and some people did to his and a lot of ideas need to be torn down. Same thing is true. Now, billions of eyes on every problem- can tear down any person idear institution, and some against, some of those things needed to be torn down, but it can build yet we are now at the stage that can build yet, but it has shown us how, our knowledge was it's one of the reasons why we are also aware of their application. Crisis is one of the reasons why we are also aware of how kind of shoddy our researches how much our expert class is arrogant and in many cases but people don't want to live in a world where they dont have people that they respect and they can look at, and I think what's happening possibly now about.

we'll work. It didn't happen as people gonna sanctions, also being high integrity, that they will always be out a thank you or establishing yourself as someone who is high integrity, where it that the where they can trust that person a fire wants to be the end of the institution to people in countries like. If it's free speech, we will defend it period, and I think that people need new un need to have authorities that they can actually trust, and I think that if you actually had a stream that maybe people can watch in action but not flood with you know, it's stupid, cancel culture, stafford or I'm cap means where it is actually a serious discussion. Bounded around rules, no perfect patrol fortress, no efficient, rhetorical fortress, none of them the bs ways we debate. I think you could start to actually creek.

It's something that could actually be a a major improvement in the in the in the speed with which we come up with new, better ideas and establish and and separate truth from falsity yeah. If it's done well, it can inspire large number of people to become iron higher integrity in a concrete integrity as a value to strive for yeah. I know there's been projects throughout the internet. have a credible job of there, but have been also very flawed, like wikipedia an example of a big leap forward. In doing that is pretty damn impressive. What what what europe take. I mean I'm mostly impressed so there's a few really powerful ideas for the people who added Wikipedia, one of which is each editor kind of for themselves, declares you know I'm into politics, and I really kind of more left, leaning guy really shouldn't be editing political articles, because I bias after they did it

where their bases in their often do a good job of actually decline, biases, but there are still lake they'll find a way to justify themselves, something will pick the mafia and they want to corrected because eight, they love correcting untruth into truth, but the perspective of what is true or not is affected by their buyers. Ruth is hard to know. And in the end, it is true that there is a left, leaning bias on the editors of wikipedia. So for that what happens is on articles, which I mostly appreciate that don't have a political aspect to them. You know the scientific articles or technical articles they're getting be really drawing even history, just describing the facts of history that don't have a subjective element, a strong, also just using my own brain, I can kind of filter out. If it's a you know, if it's something by january six or something like that,

I know I'm going to be like I'm, not whatever is going on here. I'm gonna kind to read it but motion I look to other source and will look to a bunch of different perspectives on is going to be very tense. There's probably going to be some kind of bias may be, some wording will be such, which is one where this warwick wikipedia does his thing. The way they word stuff, ah will be bias, the choice of words but the

Wikipedia editors themselves are so self reflective. They literally have articles describing these very effects of how you can use words to inject bias, yeah in in all the ways that you talk about, let's face healthier than most environments. Incredibly healthy, but I think he could do better. One of the big flaws of wikipedia to me that community notes and x does better is the accessibility of becoming editor. Is it difficult to become an editor and it's not as visible the process of editing? So I would love, as, like you said, a stream yeah everyone to be able to observe this debate between people with integrity of when they discuss things like january. Stakes are very controversial topics. Did you see how the process

The debate goes as opposed to being hidden in the shadows, which it currently is look a pdf. You can access issues hard to access, but- and I have also seen how they will use certain articles like uncertain people like articles about people have learnt of trust. Lesson because there are literally, we use those to make personal attacks in the system Do you write about they'll use discussions of different controversies to paint a picture of a person? That's that doesn't to me at least feel like an accurate representation of the person s like writing an article about

einstein, mentioning something about a theory of relativity and then saying that he was a womanizer and abuser in a like controversy. Yeah he is feynman. Also, you know not know was that you know they're, not exactly the perfect human in terms of women, but like there's other aspects to this human and to capture that few men properly there's a certain way to do it as a wikipedia will often lean They really try to be self reflective and try to stop this, but they will lean into the drama if it matches the biased but again much better than the world. I believe, is much better because Wikipedia exists, but now that we're in these adolescent stages were growing and trying to come up with different technologies. the idea of a stream year, is really really interesting. As you get more and more people into this discourse that

where the value is. Let's try to get the truth. Yeah yeah that basically in egg villa cards, for no wrong no wrong on the different. The do that differ. A troika techniques there being used to avoid actually discuss here, actually can make it a little bit fun by you get a limited number of them and it you know it's kind of like it three? What about some guards the game and find the whole thing? Absolutely yeah many ask about ass. He mentioned going to some difficult moments. He eliza why what has been your experience with the wood with depression, what has been the experience gained? out of it over coming up. yeah. I mean the whole thing the whole journey through with a b. Recalling american mind began with me in the eye of the belmont psychiatric fist. in philadelphia back in two thousand seven

and called nine one one in a moment of clarity, because I had gone to the hardware store to to make sure that when I killed myself that I am stuck, I wanted to make sure that I had my head wrapped and everything so like a football the drugs. I was planning to take their work that I went buildup claw my way out. They had been in a really rough here. and I always had issues with depression, but they were getting worse and frankly, one of the reasons why this cancer culture stuff is so important to me Is that. The thing that I didn't emphasize as much in coddling the american mind which, by the way that description that I gave of trying to kill myself was the first time I'd ever written it down, Nobody in my family was aware of how of it being like that my wife had never

I seen it and basically the only way I was able to write that was by by doing you know how you can kind of trick yourself if it and- and I was like I'm going to convince myself that this is just between me and my computer and nobody will see it is probably now the most public thing I've ever written. I do, but what I didn't emphasize, and that was how much the culture war played into how depressed I got because I was originally legal director fire. Then I became president fire in two thousand and five moved to philadelphia, where I get depressed and interest. I don't have family there, there's some, about the town. They don't seem like me very much, but the main I was being in the cultural. The time there was a girl, But I was dating. I remember you know she didn't seem to really pay What I didn't know a lot of people didn't really seem to, and meanwhile, like I was defending people on the left, all the time and they'd be like. Oh that's good that you're defending someone left. But the thought would never forgive me for defending someone on the right- and I remember saying what one point

listen. I'm like a mature believer in the stuff, I'm willing to defend nazis, I'm certainly willing to defend republicans, and she actually said. I think republicans might be worse and, and that didn't that relation go very well, and then I nearly got into fistfights a couple of times with with people on the right, because they felt I defended people who crack jokes about nine eleven, like that. This happened more than once and by that time at length in my twenties, I'm not this fighting again but yeah. It was always like that. You see how hypocritical can people bill can beat. You can see. Our friends can turn on you if they dont like your politics, so I got early preview of this of us of what the culture we're heading into bye. Bye in the present in the fire, and it was exhausting and That was one of the main things that led me to be no suicidally pressed at the belmont centre. If you told me that would be the beginning of a new.

Better life. For me, I would have laughed if I could of, but I would I dont like, you can tell him. Ok, I'm still laughing and I wasn't laughing at that point. So I got a doctor and I saw doing cognitive averil therapy. I started having all these voices in my head that work catastrophe, seeing and it out again over over generalization and fortune telling no mind reading all of these things. They teach you not to do and if what they, what you do and see turkey is essentially do you have something makes you upset, and then you just write down what the thought was. and you know something minor could happen in response was gum well today,

It seemed to go very well and that's because I am broken and will die alone and you're like ok, okay, okay, what what? What are? What are the following? You know, let's catastrophizing, that's mind. Reading that's a fortune telling us all this stuff, and you have to do this several times a day forever. I actually need to brush up on it at the moment and it slowly over time, voices in my head that have been saying horrible, horrible internal talk. It just didn't sound as good mincing anymore, which was really kind of like subtle effect like it was just kind of like oh wait. I don't buy that. I'm broken in like that in some true that in some way truth from god, lay like it used to and nine months after I was planned. the kill myself as broadly happier than had been in the decade, and that was one of the things that you know that the seat c b t is what led made to notice this in my own work that it felt like administrators were kind of

selling cognitive distortions, but soon for buying yet and then, when I started, noticing the vague seemed to come and actually already believing a lot of the stuff that would be very dangerous and that led to calling the american mind and all that stuff. But the thing that was rough Writing handsomely. American minor dimension, this this'll already a couple of times. I got really depresses faster. as I was studying, you know that there there's a friend in there that I talk about who killed himself after being cancelled. I talked him a week before he killed himself and I hadn't actually I am actually check in with them, because he seemed so confident. I thought it would be totally fine because heat deep. He had an sensitive tweet in june of two twenty eight in about got forced out in a way that dim actually sound as bad as a lot of the other professors. He actually he's gotta severance package, but they knew he'd soon when because he had before, and so I waited to check and on him cause we're so overwhelmed with requests for helps, and he was San people. We do it how still and then either

shot himself the next week and I definitely had an because everyone knows I'm so public about my struggle to the stuff everybody who fights the stuff comes to me when they're having a hard time- and this is a very hard psychologically taxing business- to be in an even admitting this right now, like, I think, about public, although all the vultures They'll have fun with it. Just like the same way when, when, when my friend MIKE Adams killed himself, there were people's that celebrating on twitter, that than a man was dead because they didn't like his tweets and but somehow that made them compassionate for some abstract other. person, so I was getting a little depressed and anxious and the thing that really help me more than anything else was confessing to my staff that I you know, I do bookstore a lot of energy. So I d I need new. They didn't want to hear that. Not only was the sticking out of the bosses time, this was making

pressed it anxious. But when I finally told my the leadership of my staff, people that, even though I try to maintain a lot of distance from, I love very, very much and it made such a difference. You know, because I could be open about that, and the other thing was if you're at this conference dialogue. Oh yes, it's like an invite. Only thing it's aren't. Hoffman runs it. eight intentionally tries to get people over the political spectrum to come together. And have off the record conversations about big issues and was nice to be in a room where liberal conservative none of the both were alike. I thank god someone's taken on catholic culture and were felt like if I may be, this won't be the the does asked her for me and my family. That I was that that I was starting to be afraid of. It would be that taking the stuff on mad actually have a happy ending. Will one day just stands out from that. Is the the pain of

cancellation can be really intense? and that doesn't the semi losing your job, but just even in college, go whatever name, but just some number of people on the internet and that number can be small kind of saying bad things to you. Yeah that can be a pretty powerful force to the human psyche, which is bill, was very surprising and then the flip side of that, and it really makes me sad how cruel people can be there that that it's such a dude thinking that you're cause is social justice in many cases can lead people to think I can be as cruel as I want in pursuit of this when it our times. It's just a waiter sort of. Then some aggression

person that you think of only as an abstraction, aiding support for people to realise that their whatever link, whatever. Whatever negative energy, whatever negativity want to put out there like there's real p, they can get hurt, You can really get people to want, be the worst version of themselves or to possibly take their own life and it's not as real yeah. What that's one of things that we do in the book to to really ip address. People who thought cut and tried to claim this isn't real. Is we just quote it? We caught the pope, we call obama, we bow James carville, we caught taylor, swift on cancel culture like, until he was quote, is is essentially about like how, behind all of this thursday, that when it gets critically nasty, there's this very clear me no kill yourself

under current to it and its its cruel and the for them miss that in an environmental, so wide open, there's always going to be someone who wants to be so transgresseth and say the most hurtful in a terrible thing but then you have to remember the misrepresentation. Getting to the old idioms sticks and stones. My bones, but names will never never hurt. Me has been. ray imagined in campus debates in the most asinine why people literally say stuff like, but now we know words can hurt like now we know words can hurt guys. You didn't have to come up with a

special little thing that you teach children to make her words hurt less if they never hurt in the first place it wouldn't even make sense the saying it's a saying that you repeat to yourself to give yourself strength when the bullies have noticed you're a little wish occurred, but maybe a little personal and the un, and it helps it really does help to be like listen. Okay, assholes are going to say, asshole things and and I can't let them have that kind of power over me. Yeah yeah. It still is a learning experience cause it does it does, it does hurt convert, but for the good people out there who actually you know just sometimes they think that they're venting enough that I think about it. Remember that there are people on the other side of it yeah. For me, it hurts my kind of faith in humanity. it shouldn't, but does sometimes when I just see people being called to each other.

Its it floats, a cloud over my perspective of yelled there don't. I wish I didn't I have to be there yeah. I, though it was always my sort of flippant, but the answer to that. If, if mankind is basically good or basically all being like the biggest debate and in in end in philosophy and being like, while the problem with the first there's nothing basic about humanity, yeah. What gives you hope about this whole thing about about this in the dark state that we're in as you describe, how can we get out or gives you hope that we will get out? I think that people are sick of it and I think people are sick of not being able to be authentic and that's really. What censorship is? It's basically telling you don't be yourself:

actually beat to say what you think, I'm don't show your personality, dont descent dont be weird dont be wrong, I'm an that's, not sustainable. I think that people of kind of had enough of it, but one thing had every was it a your audience? Is it can't just be up to us argue words to tread of fixed this week I think that this may sound like it's an unrelated problem. I think if there were highly respected, let's say extremely difficult ways to prove that europe, streaming. Smarten hardworking that cost little or nothing that act, really can give the heart, words and thou yells of the world a run for their money. I think that might be the most positive thing we could do to try to deal with a lot of these problems and why I think the fact that we have become a weird,

America, with a great entirely. This tradition, has become weirdly elitist in this and in the respect that we not only again are our leadership. Coming from these few fancy schools, we actually like great admiration. For them we kind of look up to them, but I think we'd have a Healthy urban society, if people could prove in other excellence in ways that are coming from completely different streams, and and that that that our highly respected I sometimes talk about. There should be a test that anyone who passes it gets like ace. You know ba in the humanities, that's like a super ba likes up something like some. Not a jd, that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about something that, like one Well, all only a couple like a hundred people can best some other way of actually of not going through these massive bloated, expensive institutions that people can raise their hands and say I am and hardworking. I think that could be an incredibly healthy way. I think we need additional streams for

two people to be solving problems, whether that's on extra someplace else. I think that there's lots of things at technical. She could do to really help with this. I think some of the stuff that sell is working on iconic enemy could really help. I think, there's a lot of ways, but they exist a largely around coming up with new ways of doing things, not just expecting the old things have say, three billion dollars in the bank that there are going to reform themselves and endeared adheres might be at the picture. Harvard a lot, but I'm gonna pick on him a little bit more The I want- and I talk a lot about class again and the you note that there is a great book poison ivy by Evan, mandatory, which I recommend everybody and outrageous it sound like me and ran at Stanford, which was and I felt when I think the status I'll leave. Higher education has more kids from the top one percent than they have from the bottom, fifty or sixty percent on the school and when you look at

how much they actually like replicate class privilege. It's it's really distressing Everybody should re poison. Ivy above all else. If you weird continue being weird and you're one of the most interesting one on the weirdest in the most beautiful way people ever met gregg. Thank you for the really important work you do this. This is caused by I appreciate the class, the hilariously you brought here today, man? This is an amazing conversation. Thank you for the work you do. Thank you thank you and, for me, food who cares about education, higher education think. For holding them it is in the harvard accountable for I'm doing

I buy the people that walk their halls. So thank you so much for talking to me thanks for listening to this conversation, Greg luke Yadav, to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from known chaskey? If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you know like gables, was in favour of freedom of speech for views. He liked so was stolen if you're in favour fino beach. It means your favorite freedom of speech, precisely for views. You despise thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.