The following is a conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu. Prime minister of Israel, currently serving his sixth term in office, he's one of the most influential powerful and controversial men in the world, leading a right wing coalition government at the centre of one of the most intense and long lasting conflicts and crises in human history. As we spoke and as I speak now, large scale protests are breaking out all over israel over this government's proposed judicial reform that seeks to weaken supreme court in a bold accumulation of power. Given the current intense political battles in Israel, our previous intention to speak for three hours was adjusted to one hour for the time being, but we agreed to speak again for much longer in the future. I will also interview people who harshly disagree with a word spoken in this conversation. I will speak with other world leaders with religious leaders with historians and activists and with people,

we have lived and have suffered through the pain of war, destruction and loss that stoke the fires of anger and hate in their heart. For this I will travel anywhere, no matter. How dangerous, if there's any chance, it may help add to understanding and love in the world I believe in the power of conversation to do just this to remind us of our common humanity. I know I'm under qualified and under skills for these conversations, so I will often fall short and I will certainly get attacked guided and slandered, but I will always turn the other cheek and use these attacks to learn to improve. and no matter what never give into cynicism this life. This world of ours is too beautiful not to keep trying

trying to do some good in whatever way, each of us know how I love you are now a cook you can mention of a sponsor check them out in a description. Is the best wait supporters back ass, we got numerous for the was hard. Is data size, tournament, better help format, the health not sweet for business management, software and sharper five for e commerce. She's wasn't my friends also You want to work with our amazing team or always hiring. Could let's friedman dot com, slash, hiring now under the full lotteries, as always know as in the middle? I try to make this interesting, but if he was kept them please to check out the sponsors and other stuff, maybe you will too The show is, but you by numerous hedge fund that uses

machine learning to make investment decisions is basically a really difficult. Data set a really difficult competitions with real world testing, but the test set with a high stakes as a talk about in this conversation with the benjamin Netanyahu, is a big believer in the power and the efficiency of the market. That's the cleanest signal you can get in the interim Action of a very large number of people competing purely with good information, to step into the world as a machine learning algorithm to see what you can do with past data and how to make predictions such that you got up from other humans are other algorithms super interesting, I'm just a big fan of real what data sets and large scale

real world machine learning benchmarks, both as a way to learn what works and what doesn't and just the fun the fun of competing. The fun of competition is a good catalyst for learning, and he steps on the long journey towards mastery her over to memorize lash wax. That's an you m e r that iceland lacks the sign up for aid. Parliament and how you machine learning skills, that's newman, da AI, slash legs for chance to play against me and win a share of the tournaments prize pool. This episode is also brought to you by better help, spelled h e l b, help in my early teenage years. When I first started reading the writings of sigmund freud and call young I dreamed of becoming psychotherapist a psychiatrist, because I thought that is the way to explore the human mind

Is some funny kind away the journey I took to computer science and the development of robots and machine learning systems, artificial intelligence systems? All of that to meet up I guess, called artificial intelligence that was then renamed to just my name: and now I am finally doing psychotherapy, unlike phones with other people, but if you want to do the same gonna process. You don't want to start your pack ass, then maybe you want to sign up for better help, because it surprise you get started is affordable, accessible, discreet.

All of that available worldwide super easy, I'm a big believer in talk therapy, and so you should do try a better help, because it's the easiest way to try out and integrate talk therapy into your life check them out a better hub dot, com, slash legs and save on your first month. That's better help the counselor Legs they show is also about you, buy nets, wheat and all in one cloud, business measurement system that manages all kinds of stuff, financials, human resources and very e commerce. All that kind of message stuff, and nobody really thinks about when they launch a company. I certainly don't think about what I'm thinking about. Watch your company, I'm thinking about big design decisions, big engineering decision I'm thinking about how to hire a team of amazing people, a team that is diverse in their back.

In the way they see the world in their approaches, the problem solving. All of that. That's what excites me all messy stuff, that's as essential, if not more, for running a business. I don't think about that's why you should use the best tools, the job. to at least help you out of that part. You can start now with no payment or interest for six months, got a network dot com, slash lex, to axe. Their one of a kind financing programme nets with dot com. Slash lacks that's nets we tackle slashed lacks the show is also brought you buy shop via a platform for anyone to sell anywhere the great looking online store. The brings your ideas, the life and tools manage day to day operation. I've been na wanting to put out some marched out there, because I'm working within amazing artist to help me out create some awesome stuff. I've been so lazy about it.

And when I say lazy I just mean my plate is so full and I've been doing some extremely difficult travel, but also taken on these difficult projects and trying to figure out my life, but through all of that a source of excitement. A source of opportunity for me, is just how fun and easy to use shopify to create your own store. So that's the thing that's exciting to you. You should definitely do it. Go, sell some cool stuff, it has thousands of integrations and third party apps is is basically for anything you want to do. He can get done.

From under me, a bridging to accounted adverse chap odds are that kind of stuff again highly highly highly recommend you try out shop. If I sign up for a one dollar per month, trial period, a chop, vida causeless lex, that's all lowercase gonna shall provide the council s legs to take a business to the next level. Today this is the less frequent park. Ass does aborted. We check out our sponsors in the description and now, dear friends, his benjamin Netanyahu. Your loved by many people here in Israel and in the world, but he also hated by many in his eye I think you may be one of the most

the man in the world. So if there is young man or young woman listening to this right now who have such hate in their heart. What can you say to them to one day turn that hate into love? I disagree with the premise of your question. I think girl ever I have enjoyed a very broad support around the world. There are certain corners in which we have. Ah, we have this animosity that you describe, and it sort of premier is in the some of the the newspapers and and use organs and so on in the in the united states, but certainly doesn't reflect the the I support that. I have. I just gave an interview on an iranian channel- sixteen million euros I gave another one just did a little video a few years ago. twenty five million viewers from IRAN. Certainly no eight there,

not from the regime. Ok, when I go around the world and I've been around the world. People want to hear what we have to say: What I have to say is the leader of Israel, whom they respect increasingly as a rising power in the world. So I I disagree with that and the most important thing that goes against what you said is the respect that we received from the arab world and the fact. we made for historic peace agreements with arab countries. They made it with me that didn't make it with anyone else, and I respect them and their respect me. And probably more to come. So I think the premise is wrong little, while there's a lot of love. Yes, the latter leaders are.

elaborating are respect. I said mobile ludlow forecast was it's a spectrum, but there is people who don't have good things to say about Israel who do have hate in their heart and for israel and what do you say to those people were? I think they don't know how much I think, they're guided by a lot of money. They don't know about Israel. They don't know that Israel is a stellar democracy that it happens to be one of the most advanced societies on the planet that what israel develops, helps humanity in every field of medicine in agriculture, and the environment and telecoms, and talk about it in a minute, but changing the world for the better and spreading this among such content. We central do teams more than any other country in the world and where one tenth of one percent of the world's population

but when there is a nurse to earthquake or devastation in haiti or in the philippines, as well as their wendy in earthquake the devastating earthquake in turkey, turkey, Israel was there when there's something in there Nepal, Israel is there and its second country, it's the second country after in one case, india or after another. The united states, Israel, is their tiny. Israel is a benefactor to all of humanity, the their student history. If I can just linger on their philosophical notion of hate that part of human nature, if you look at One or two would you learn from human nature? from the rise of the third reich and the rise of somebody like hitler and the hate.

For me, it's the more. What I've learned is that you have to nip bad things in the bud. You have to there's a latin term that says obst upstart principe, stop bad things when they're small and the deliberate hatred, the the insight of hatred against the one community, demonization diligent immigration that goes with it is is a very dangerous thing, and that happened in the case of the Jews. What started with the Jews soon spread to all humanity. So what we ve learned is that, while we should should never and I'd never said side and say oh they're just threatening to destroy us. They won't do it. If somebody threatens to eliminate as iran is doing today and as hitler did then, and people discounted it well if somebody threatens to annihilate well as take them seriously and act to prevent it earlier,

Don't let them have the means to do so, because that may be too late. So in those threats underlying that hatred, how much of it is anti zionism and how much of it is anti semitism. I dont between the two you can't say, while I'm I'm ok with Jews, but I just don't think there should be a jewish state like us. I'm not anti american. I just don't think there should be an american, that's, basically what clue what people say, the views of the anti semitism. does, it mean anti zionism when That is, I am using. The jewish people, don't have a right to have a state of their own, and that, though,

that is a denial of our basic group, a basic principle that I think completely unmasked. What is involved here today. Anti semitism is anti zionism. Those who oppose the jewish people oppose the jewish state. If we jump from human history to the current particular moment. There's protests in israel now about the proposed judicial reform that gives power to your government to override the supreme court. So the critics say that this gives too much power to you or surely making you a dictator or whether it's ridiculous. The mere fact that you have so many demonstrations brought us some or some dictatorship a little of a lot of democracy here, more more rambunctious than borrow a robust than just anywhere on the planet,

Can you steal man the case that this gives? This may give too much power to the of the coalition government to the prime minister, not just to you, but to those that follow nope. I think that's complete hogwash, because I think there's a there's. A very few people are demonstrating against this, quite a few quite many, don't have an idea. What is being discussed are booth, basically being slogan eyes. You can slogan, as you know, something about not mass media right now, but the social learner, what you can basically feed deliberately with big data and big money you can, feed slogans and get into people's minds. Lady, I'm sure don't think exaggerate, because you can tell me more about that and you can create mass mobilization based on these absurd slogans. So here here is where we come from and what we're doing what we are trying to do and what we ve changed and what we tried it. I'm a nineteenth century Democrat,

Meyer, small idea. In my view, that is a view. I asked the question: what is democracy looking for democracy is is the will of the majority and the protection of the rights of the child. the rights of the minority, but I see the rights of the individual okay. So how do you balance the two okay? How do you get this? How do you avoid ma bakassi, okay, and how do you avoid data on the opposite side. The way you avoided is something that was built centrally by british philosophers in french philosophers, but was encapsulated by the founding fathers of the united states. You create a balance between the three branches of government, the legislative executive and the judicial, and this balance is what assures the balance between majority rights and individual rights

and you have to balance all of them. Ok, that balance was maintained in Israel in its first fifty years and was gradually over overtaken and basically broken by the most active as judicial court. On the That's what happened here and gradually over the last two three decades, the the court arrogant for itself the powers of the parliament and the executive so we're trying to bring it back into line. Bring it back into line into what is common in all parliamentary democracies and in the united states doesn't mean taking them angelo from one side and bring it to the other side. We want checks and balances, not dumb and rival part. Just as we say, we want an independent judiciary, but not in all powerful judiciary. That balanced does not mean bringing back into line doesn't mean that you can have the the parliament archness at override any decision that the supreme court does.

I've pretty much early on said after the judicial reform was introduced. Rid of the idea of a sweeping override clause that would have with sixty one votes. That's a majority of one. You can just to nullify any supreme court decision, so let's move it back into the center. So that's gone and most of the criticism on the judiciary. The form was based on a on an unlimited, override clause, which I've said is simply not going to happen. People are discussing that something that already for six months does not exist. Second, point that we received criticism on was the. The structural: how do you choose supreme court judges? Okay, I do submit. How do you choose them and the the critics of the reform are saying that the idea that elected officials choose supreme court judges is the end of the market,

If that's the case, the united states is not a democracy. Neither is france and other are just not just about every every democracy on the planet. So there is a view here that you can have the sordid hands over elected. She was involved in the chosen of judges in these really system. The judicial activism went so far that effectively the sitting judges have in effect of veto and that a new and choosing judges, which means that this is a self selecting court that just put perpetrates itself, and we want to correct that again when it corrected in a balanced way and that's basically what there were trying to do so, cause a lot of misinformation about that we're trying to bring israeli democracy to where it was in its first fifty years, and it was a stellar democracy still if Israel is a democracy, will remain a democracy, a vibrant democracy.

believe me the fact that people are arguing in demonstrating in the streets in protest and just is the best proof of that- that's how it will remain. We spoke about tat companies. The offline is a lot of tech companies nervous about this judicial reform. Can you speak to why a large and small please have a future in Israel because Israel as a free market economy. I had something to do that. I introduce, though, does in dozens of free market reforms at made, Israel move Seventeen thousand dollars per capita income to within a very short time to Fifty four thousand dollars- that's nominal gdp per capita to the imo and we ve, were taken in that japan, France, Britain, germany,

How did that happened, because we only see the genius that we have an initiative in the entrepreneurship that is latent in our population and dare to do that? We are too free market, so we created that through Israel has one of the most vibrant free market economies in the world and the second, we have is a permanent investment in conceptual products, because we have a permanent investment in nam. in the military and our security services creating basically knowledge It will then become knowledge, roper noise, and so we create this destruction. That's not gonna, go away There has been a decline in investments in the high tech globally. I that's driven by many factors, but the most important one is the interest rate which, which I think will it'll fluctuate up and, But Israel will remain a very attractive country because it produces so many.

so many knowledge workers in a knowledge based economy and it's changing so rapidly the world is changing. You are looking for the places that have innovation. The future belongs to this to those who innovate. Israel is the pre eminent innovation nation, it as few competitors, and, I would say, right. Where do you have this close cross, disciplinary fermentation, various skills and areas outside in Israel. I'll tell you why we used to be just telecoms, because people went out of the air military intelligence are an essay, but that's been now broad base. You find it in medicine, you find it biology, you find it in the agri. You find it everywhere. Everything is becoming technologies and in Israel, everybody is dealing and everything, and that's of that that's a potent

reservoir of talent that the world is now Gonna pass up in fact is coming. Does we just had and video coming here and they decided to build a supercomputer in Israel under why we went into coming here and deciding not to invest twenty five billion dollars just now in a new plan in Israel. I wonder why I don't want to. I then, oh, why? Because the talent is here and freedom is here, then it will remain so So you had a conversation about ai, with SAM altman of open ai and with the la masia war. Was the content of their conversation? Was your vision for sort of this very highest of tech, is artificial intelligence. Before survivor high regard for the people, I talked to, ok I understand that they understand things. I don't understand and I don't pretend to understand everything, but I do understand one thing. I understand that the ai,

is developing at a jew rate and mostly in political life and in life and general people don't have an intuitive grasp geometric, Of you understand things basically now linear increments, and the idea that you coming up the ski slope, is very foreign to be pursued on instead it in there naturally also so taken aback by, because what do you do? Ok, so I think the there's some conclusions from my conversations with there with them, my other observations that have been talking about for many years. I'm talking about the need to do this. Well. The first thing is this. There is no possibility of not entering with full force. Secondly, there is a need for regulation. Third, it's not clear, though, be global regulation forth.

It's not clear where it ends up. I certainly cannot say that now you might say: does it come to control us? Okay, that's question: does it come to control us? I don't know the answer to that. I think that as a as one The reason that I had from these conversations is, if it does come to control, is that's probably the only chance of having them universal regulation, because energy anyone anyone deciding to in order to avoid the race and cooperate unless you have threat doesn't mean you can't regulate within countries even without that understanding, but it

I mean that there is a limit to regulation, because every country will want to make sure that it's not does give up competitive advantage. If there is no universal regulation, I think that right now just as you know, ten years ago I read them. I read a novel. I don't read novels, but I was forced to read one by the scientific advisor. I read history. I read about economics, I read about technology, just to read: novels, okay and the sun. Follow churchill, who said fact is better than fiction well this fiction would become fact, and it was a book- was a novel about and he's americans future cyber war, and I read the book one sitting called in team of experts in it. let's go. Let's turn israel into one of them the world's five cyber pardoned? Let's do it very quickly and we did actually we did. We did exactly that

I think I is bigger than that and related to that, because it affect will cyber affect everyone, but It will affect that even more fundamentally, in the joining of the two could be very powerful, so I think in Israel. We have to have to do it anyway for security reasons when we're doing it, but I think what about what about our databases that are already very robust under on the medical records of ninety percent of us? listen! Why don't? We stick a genetic database on that? What do we do? Other things that could bring magical? What seem seemingly magical cures and drugs and medical instruments were there that's one possibility, we have it and, as I said in every single field, the conclusion is that we have to move on air we are moving on? I just as we moved on cyber, and I think as well will be one of the leading.

One of the leading a powers in the world. the questions I don't have an answer to is: where does it go? How much does it eat chew? Upon and jobs? There is an assumption that am not sure is true that all previous, the too big previous resolutions and the human condition, namely the agricultural evolution and industrial revolution, definitely put more jobs than day then they consumed. Ok. That is not obvious to me at all I mean I could see new jobs created in yes, I have that. You know that that comforting statement, but it's not quite because I think, on balance, I probably consume more job many more jobs than though create, at least in the short term,

and we don't know about the long term. I dont know about the long term, but I used to have the comfort being a free market. Guy always said you know we're gonna produce more jobs than you know by air. limiting certain government jobs who actually putting in the market will create more jobs, which obviously up in a way one telecom company, a government, Bunny. When I said we're going to know about create competition, they said you're gonna run us out, we're not gonna. Have workers, the other thirteen thousand workers. They went down to seven, but we create another forty thousand in the other car companies, so that was a comforting thought. I always knew that was not only that also knew that wealth would spread by opening up the markets completely opposite to the socialist and semi socialist greed that they had

They said you are you gonna make the rich richer and the poor poor no end made everyone richer, and actually the people enter the job market. Because of the reforms we did actually became a lot richer and the lowest, though the laura ladders of the socio socioeconomic measure, but here's the point I don't know, I don't know that we will not have what elon musk calls the end of scarcity. so you'll have the end of scarcity, will have enormous productivity. You know very few people are producing enormous added value, you're going to have to tax that to pass it to the others. Okay, you're going to have to do that. That's a political question! I'm not sure how we answer that. What if you tax and somebody else, doesn't touch you're going to get everybody to go there? That's an issue, an international issue that we constantly have to deal with and a second

question? How is suppose you solve that problem and you deliver money? Ok to those who are not involved in the air. I call me: what did they do? The first question you ass somebody whom you just men after the polite, though the polite exchanges. What do you do right? Well, people to find themselves by their profession and it's gonna be difficult, if you dont have a profession and people will spend more time self searching the more time in there the arts more time and leisure, understand that, if, after bet annihilate many more jobs, then it will create an old force. A structural change in our economics- and I reckon good models and in our politics,

I'm not your what's, gonna go and at something we have to respond to at the nation level and just as a human civilization. both the threat of ai to just us as a human species, and then the effect on the jobs and, like you said, cyber security, and what do you think, where you think you think is going to we're going to lose control know I have first of all, I do believe, maybe naively that it will create more jobs, is that it takes write that down will chukka boots on record, and you know we don't have we don't say we'll check it after our lifetime. No we'll see it in a few years, we'll see in a few years. I'm really concerned about savers security in the nature of how that changes and with the power of ai and in terms of existential threats. I think there'll be so much that rights that are existential along the way that that is the thing I am most concerned about verses, ay I taking complete control and becoming so supersede

in the human species, although that is something you should consider seriously. Because of the exponential growth of it's capability? It's exactly the exponential growth which we understand is before us, but we don't really is very hard to project forward real I understand and right and that we were so you know I'm so I do with what I can work and effects of the now, tend not to worry about things out on control. Because of a third point, there's no point: I me you have to decide what you spend your time on. So I think in practical terms, it will make will make us really. global power. We're just and the limitation of skill computing power the things, but I think within those limits I think we can make here this

miracle that we met. We did and many other things that we do more with less. I don't care if it's water, the production of water or the production of editor of the production of knowledge, of the production of cyber capabilities, defense and other we just do more with less than I think, and I want to do a lot more with relatively small but highly gifted population, very gift, so taking a small tangent as we talk about, off line. I have a back on and take hondo. Oh yeah that were mentioned. You must have our trade with both, but this is a quick Why should you have our who you betting on a fight what'll? I refused to answer that. I will say this that a partition you're the of course here am I In addition, I am openly telling you that I'm dodging the question- ok but I'll, say this out. I actually

I spent five years in our special forces in the military air. We barely sped, On martial arts actually take one day later, when I can do it, wasn't even at mit at mit. I think I d karate, but the money to you- and I had a martial arts expertly taught me taekwondo window just kind of interesting. Now. The question you really have to ask is: why did we learn martial arts and the special elite unit? And the answer is There's no point. If you saw Indiana jones, there's no point you just don't pull the trigger that simple now I don't expect anyone to pull the trigger this combat them? I'm sure you'll picture that doesn't happen. I may martial arts, as it's kind of, is bigger than just combat it's. This kind of journey of humility in

as is an art form. it really is an art, but it's fascinating that these two figures in tech are facing each other and I won't ask a question of who you would face and how you would do, but while I'm frozen opponents all the time all the time the bottom line, but not a large part of life, was not yet a merger about your announcing unites, I'm getting. No part of life is competition not only time. Competition ends is death, But you know political life, economic life, cultural life is engaged continuously and creativity in competition, and that, though the problem I have with that, as I mentioned earlier, just before we begin the podcast. Is that at a certain point, you want to put barriers to me

happily, and if you're in a really able competitor you gonna create a monopoly that so what peter till says. the natural course of things it's what I learned them best in the bicycle: I didn't know if you're very able competitor you'll create scale advantages to give, do the ability to lock out your competition and the prime minister You want to be sure that there is competition in the market to have to limit limit this competitive power to third point, and that becomes increasingly hard. in the in a world where everything is enormous, where do you defined market segments? Where do you define a monopoly? How do you do that? That is very that that actually, conceptually I find very challenging because of all the dozens of political and economic reforms that I've made the most difficult part. Is the conceptual by once you have you, ve earned it out. You say here's. What I want to do here is the right thing to do that you have a practical problem,

of overcoming union resistance, political resistance, the press calumny opponents blue from this or that corner. That's a practical matter, but if you have it conceptually defined can move ahead to reform economies or reform education or reform transportation fight in the question of the growing power of large companies big tech companies to monopolize the markets because a better at it they provide a service. They provided lower, cost rapidly decline clause. Will you stop with you will you stop and monopoly power is a crucial point. and because it also becomes now a political question. If you were mass enormous amount of economic economist power, which is information power, also monopolizes the political process which grants these are real questions

There are not obvious, I don't have an obvious answer: because, as I said, is a nineteenth century Democrat, these are questions of the twenty first century, which people should there should begin to think you have a solution to that decision of monopolies growing arbitrarily unstoppable in power. an economic born there, weren't political by me. Some of that is regulation. Some of that is competition. You know where to put to draw the line start breaking up eighty, and do you know it's not that simple, Well, I believe in the power of competition that there will always be somebody that challenges the big eyes, especially in the space of a I. Ah, the more open source movements are taking hold the more Little guy can become the big guy, so you're suing basically through the regulatory. The regulatory instrument is the market in large part and most part, that's the hope

Maybe I'm a dreamer, that's been in many ways by policy up to now that the best regulator the market, the best regulator and economic in economic activity, is the market. The best regulator and political matters is a political mock. That's called elections, that's what that's a regulator, you know you have a lousy government and people make lousy decisions. Well, I don't need you know the wise men raised above the you know the the masses to decide what is good and what is bad. Let the masses decide let them vote every four years or whatever, and then they throw you up by the way it happened. To me. There's life

The political death is actually political life. I was reelected five or six times, and this is my sixth term, so you know that the I believe in that I'm not sure. I'm not sure that in economic matters in the geometric growth, of the companies that you will always have the little. I, the nimble mammal that will come out and slay the donor dinosaurs overcome the dinosaurs of which is essentially what you said, and yet I wouldn't count out the little guy. He wouldn't count out the limb. I hope you're right Let me ask you out this market of politics So you have served six term as prime minister of a fit. Ten years and power and ask you again, human nature do away, but

corrupting nature of power and use a leader. I use a man not at all, because I think that the again the the thing that drives me is not is nothing, but the mission that I took two were the survival and thriving of the state, the jewish state, that is its economic prosperity, but its security and its ability to achieve peace, neighbours and I am committed to it. I think they're still, the many things have been done. A few big things that I can still do, but it doesn't only depend on my sense of mission. It depends on the market. As we say, depends. Only on the will of the israeli voters and israeli voters have decided to For me again again, even though I wheeled no power in the press, no power in many quarters here and so on. Nothing I mean I'm probably I'm gonna

very soon, the longest serving prime minister in the last half century in the western democracies? But that's not because I am I a mask great political power in any of the institutions. I member up at a conversation with there, silvio Berlusconi who recently died- and he said to me about fifteen years ago- someone like that he said so. Baby Ah, how many how many of Israel's television stations- and you have- and I said, none he said you have none. I have you have do you have as none. I have to laugh said. No, no, but what you mean you don't have any that you control isn't now all you have- none that I controlled are all against me, so says. So, how do you win elections? And you know with both hands tied behind your back innocent, the hard way

that's why you know I have the largest party. I don't have many more seats that I would have if I had sympathetic a voice in the media. Israel is until recently was dominated completely by one side of the political spectrum. That often vilified may not not me, because it is viewed me as representing. Basically the conservative voices, Will that a majority in so that I do that? I met in a minute and authoritarian dictators ridiculous. I am out emma not merely as a champion of how that democracy and democratization, I'm

believe. Ultimately, the decision is with the voters and the voters, even though they ve had know they have constant constant press attacks. They have chosen to put me back, and so I don't believe in this thing over massing the corrupting power of. If you don't have elections, if you don't have, if you control the the means of influencing the voters, I'd understand what you're saying, but in my case its exact opposite after the golden elixirs constantly. You know with a disadvantage that the major media outlets are very violently sometimes against me, but it's fine and I keep on winning. So I I dunno what you're talking about. I would say the concentration of power lies elsewhere

and here. Well, you have been involved in several corruption cases. How much corruption is there in Israel and how do you find it in your own party and in Israel? While you should ask a different question: what's happened to these cases? These cases have basically are collapsing before our eyes. The the the you know there were there was recently a in event in which the judges, the three judges and, in my case, called in the prosecution and said you know your flagship. The bribery charge, socal bribery chess, you know is gone, doesn't exist before a single, a single defense witness was called, and it sorta tells you that this thing is erupt Britain is quite astounding, even that I have to say, was covered even by the mainstream press in Israel, because such an earthquake so

you know, a lot of these charges are not a lot. These charges will prove to be nothing. I always said. Listen, I stand before the legal process. I don't claim that exempt from it in any way. On the contrary, I think the truth will come out and it's coming out We see that not only that, but with other things, so I think it's kind of instructive that no no politician has been more vilified. No none has been put to such a you know. What is it about? quarter of a billion shackles were used to scrutinise me scour my bank account sending people do the philippines into mexico into europe and to america and looking we by using spyware, the most advanced spyware on the planet against their my associates, blackmail. Witnesses, telling them. You know think about your family. Think about your wife. I know you better tell us what you want

that is coming out of the trial, so I would say that most people now asking are no longer asking, including Opponents started trickling in as the as the stuff comes out. People are not saying what did Netanyahu do, because he apparently did nothing. What was done to him. The something to people ask what was done to him. What was done to our democracy What was done in the attempt to put down somebody who keeps winning elections despite the handicaps that I described? Maybe we and maybe we can nail him by framingham and the one thing I can say about the the this court trial is that things are coming up and that's that's where the just object of things, changing the picture. So I would say the the attempt to brand me as corrupt

as falling on its face, but the thing that is being covered in the trial, such as the use, the use of spyware on a politician, politicians surroundings to try to shake them down in investigations, but them and flee written cells were twenty one days invite their eighty four year old, mother, Two investigations without cause bringing in their mistresses in the corridor shaking them down. That's what people are asking that corruption is what they want corrected. What is the top obstacle to peaceful coexistence of israelis and palestinians? Let's talk about the big question of peace,

in this part of the world. Well, I think the reason you have the persistence of the palestinian israeli conflict, which goes back about a century, is the persistent palestinian refusal to recognise a jewish state, a nation state for the jewish people in any boundary, and that's why they opposed the establishment of the state of Israel before we had to stay. That's why they were posted after we had a state they oppose it. When we were, we didn't have today in some air, the west bank, in our heads and gaza. They oppose that after we have does make a difference. It's basically the persistent refusal. To recognise a jewish state in any boundaries, and I think that their tragedy is that they ve been commandeered force. true by leadership that refuse to compromise. The idea of us I m, namely that the Jews deserve a state in this part of the world, the territorial dispute as something else. You have a territorial dispute,

if you say, ok, you're, living on their side, we're living in that silence aside, where the borders and saw that's not what the argument is, the palestinian society, which is itself a fragmented, but all the factions agree. They shouldn't be adjusted. Anyone! Ok, they just disagree between hamas that says: oh well, you should have it. You know we should get rid of it there with terror. Others say no. We should also use political means to dissolve. It said that is, that is the problem, so, even as part of a two state solution so I guess the idea. Well, they don't want a state. Next usual, they want to state instead of israel, and they say if we get a state will use it as a springboard to destroy the smaller as well as state, which is what happened when Israel unilaterally walked out of gaza and effectively established a Hamas state there that and say, oh good. Now we have

in our own territory of one state. Israel is no longer there. Let's build peace. Let's build the you know the economic coup projects letter Enfranchise our people know they turned it into her biscuit into a terror bastion for which they find ten thousand rockets into no, is left the lebanon. No because we had terrorist attacks from there, then now we had lebanon taken off. by hizbollah terrorist organization that seeks to destroy Israel and in there for every time we just walked out what we got was not peace didn't give a territory for peace. We got territory for terror with it with without and that's what would happen as long as they were. The reigning ideology, says we don't want Israel in any border, so the idea of two states assumes that you'd have, on the other side, a state that wants to live,

peace and not one that will be overtaken by IRAN and its boxes into seconds and become a base to destroy Israel, and therefore, I think that the most today, if you today, if you ask them they're there, then that they say at second work in that concept of what you do, what you do with the palestinians, the still there- and I don't like them. I don't want to throw them out. They're gonna be living here and we're gonna be living in an era. Which is, by the way to sounds tat. The the entire area of south west bank and in Israel.

Is the width of the Washington beltway more or less just a little more, not much more to get really divided up. You can say well you're going to fly in who controls the airspace? Well, it takes you about two and a half minutes to cross it with a with a regular. You know: seven, four, seven: okay, with a fighter plane, it takes you committing half okay, so you're, not are you going to divide the airspace? Will you not kind of like this was gonna control, that airspace and the electromagnetic space and the and so on? So security has to be in the hands of his will. My view of how you solve this problem is that it is a simple principle: the palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves and none of them to threaten Israel, which basically means that the responsibility for overall security remains with Israel and, from a practical point of view, we ve seen that

we time that Israel leaves a territory and and takes it. Security forces out of an area it immediately there overtaken by Hamas and hezbollah or jihadist, who basically are committed to the destruction of Israel, also bring misery to thee. The palestine the arab subjects, so I think that that principle is less than perfect sovereignty, because you're taking a certain amount of up our sovereign powers specially security away, but I think it's the only practical solution. So people say I, but it's not a perfect state of oak and call it what you will call you know. I don't know, limited sovereignty, clouded autonomy plus call it whatever you want to call it, but that's the reality and right now, if you ask israelis across the political spectrum except the very hard left, most israelis agree with that. really debated so two state solution. Where is your control, the security of the entire region? We don't call quite

them in their different names, but the ideas yes is: will control security in the is the entire. This tiny area between the Jordan river in the sea of and it's like, you know you can walk at him. Not one afternoon. If you really fit, you can do it in a less less than a day I did, so the expansion of settlements in the west bank has been a top priority for this new government. People may harshly criticised this is contributing to escalate, in Israel, palestine, tangier already kinky. stand that perspective that this expansion of settlements is not good for this. Stay solution, argument that I can understand what they're saying and their understand. Why they're wrong for us, the most most israelis live and judaism air livin in the urban blocks, and that accounts for about ninety percent of the job of the population. And everybody recognizes that those.

when blogs are going to be part of Israel in any future arrangements. So they're really arguing about something that has already been decided and agreed upon really by by americans by even by arabs many arabs. They don't think that it was going to dismantle these days blocks in a look outside the window here and within about a kilometer mile from here, as you have jerusalem, half of jerusalem grew actually beyond the older nineteen sixty seven borders, so you're not going to dismantle half of jerusalem. That second happen and there most people, don't Then you have the other ten percent scattered in tiny on small communities and peoples that why you're gonna have to take them out. Why Why remember that in pre, ninety six or seven israel, we have over a million half arabs, we dont say Israel has to be asked.

plans from arabs in order to have from its arab citizens in order to have peace? Of course, Jews can live among arabs and arabs can live among Jews and what is what is being advanced by those people who say that we can't live in ancestral homeland and these disputed areas. Nobody says that this is stand in areas, and nobody says that these it was well years. We claim them. They claim that we ve only been attached to this land for o thirty five hundred years, but you know, but it's a dispute. I agree But I don't agree that we should throw out the arabs and another thing that they should throughout the jews if somebody said to the only where we're gonna have peace with Israel is to have an ethnically cleansed palestinian entity that that's outrageous, if you said the only way, you shouldn't, have juice living in the suburbs, of london or new york and so on. I don't think that will play to the world is actually advancing a solution that says that

The Jews cannot live among arabs and arabs cannot live among Jews. I don't think that's the right way to do that, I think there is a solution out there, but I don't think we're gonna get to it, which is less than perfect sound. Which involves, as well as security maintained for dinner, dirt or by Israel. Which involves not rooting out anybody not kicking uprooting arabs. Palestine is they're. Gonna live in enclaves in sovereign israel and we're going to live in probably an enclaves, they're, probably through time, rotational continuity as opposed to territorial continuity, that is over but you can have tunnels and overpasses inside that connect the

it's communities and we're doing that right now we're doing that right now and it it it actually works. I think there is a solution to this. It's not the perfect world that people think of because that model, I think, doesn't apply here if it applies elsewhere. It's a question of. I don't think so, but I think there's one other thing and that's the main thing that I've been involved in you know people said if you don't solve the palace Immune problem, you're not gonna, get to the arab world, you're not gonna, have peace with the arab world. Remember the palestinians are about two percent of the arab world and the other. you know the other? Ninety eight percent you're not going to make peace with him and that's our goal, and for a long time, people accepted that after the initial peace treaties with egypt, with the prime minister begging of the likud and the and president said out of egypt and with jordan between prime minister Rabin ended and king Hussein for quarter

Essentially we didn't have any more peace treaties, because people said you've got to go through the palestinians and the palestinians. They don't want the solution of the kind that I described or any kind except the one that involve the dissolute the state of Israel. So we can wait another half century and I said no, I mean I don't think that we should accept the premise that we have to wait for the palestinians because will have to wait for ever so I decided to do differently. I decided to go directly to the arab capitals and to make the historic, abraham accords and essentially reversing the equation, not a peace process that goes inside out but outside in, and we went directly to the key of these countries and forge these is a breakthrough. Peace accords with the united arab emirates, with bahrain with morocco with sudan and were now trying to expand that in a lot of lip with saudi arabia

what does it take to do that with saudi arabia, with the saudi crown prince Mohammad Bin Salman? You know I'm a student of history and I read a lot of history, and I read that the versailles questions after world war, one person woodrow Wilson said I believe in open covenants openly arrived at. I have my correction. I believed in open covenants secretly arrived at so that we're not get it advance saudi israeli peace by having it publicly disgust and in any case it's a decision of the of the saudis if they want to do it, There is obviously a mutual interest. So here is my view. If we try to wait for the two percent in order to get to the ninety eight percent we're going to fail and we have failed,

Go to the ninety eight percent. We have a much greater chance of persuading the two percent. You know why, because the two percent, the palestinian hope to vanquished instead of his will and not make peace with it is bad, among other things, on the problem. The assumption that eventually, the ninety eight percent, the rest of the air, will will kick in and destroy the jewish state, help them to dissolve or destroy the jewish state. When that hope is in a way. Then you begin to have turned to the realistic solutions of This is why the weather require compromise on the israeli side. To be perfectly, Cognizant of that and willing to do that, but I think a realistic compromise will be struck much more readily when the conflict between Israel and the arab states the air worlds affected. We saw- and I think we're on that path.

Was a conceptual changes like you know, I've been involved in a few, I told you can consent. you'll battle is always the most difficult one, and I had to fight this battle. To convert a semi socialist state into a free market, capitalist stayed and I have to say that most people today recognize recognise the power of competition and the benefits of free market. So we also had to fight this battle said you you have to go through the other than the palestinian straight as the are hiv to get to the other place, there's no way to avoid this? We have to go through this this or impassable pass and I think that now people are recognizing that will go around it and probably circle back and that I think actually gives hope not only to have an arab israeli peace, but certain back in israeli palestinian peace,

and obviously this is not something to find in the sound bites and so on, but but they end up in the popular discussion of the press. But that idea permeating, and I think it's the right idea exerting its only one that will work for expanding the circle peace just to link on that requires what secretly talking man man, human to human dignity of other nations. radically right. Theoretically, ok. Well, let me ask you another theoretical question on the circle of peace as a student of history and looking at the ideas of war and peace. What do you think? Can it if peace in the war in ukraine blinking at another part of the world, if use, if you consider the fight for peace in this part of the world, how can you apply that to that other part of the world between russia and ukraine? Now

I think it's one of them. the savage hearth, history and one the great tragedies that is occurring and let me say it, as it that if I have any opportunity to pay it was my contacts to help bring about an end to this tragedy. I'll do so. I've had, I know both leaders, but don't just jump into and assume than others. Your desired a third point, because the conditions of created the possibility of helping stop this this carnage, then I'll. Do it and that's why I choose my words carefully, because I think that may be the best of the best thing that I could do

look. I think what you see in ukraine is what happens if you have territorial designs, on territory, by a country that has nuclear weapons and that to me check you see the change in the equation, not. I think that people are allowed to use nuclear weapons and I'm not sure that I would think that the russian side would use them with happy abandoned. I don't think that's the cushion, but you see how the whole configuration changes when that happens, to have to be very careful and how you resolve this car so it doesn't while does go off the rails, so to speak, that's by the way, the corollary Here we don't want iran, which is an aggressive force with an unlucky, just aggressive idea, of dominating first further.

Muslim world and then eliminating Israel and then becoming a global force of having nuclear weapons. It's totally different when they don't have it, then, when they do have it and that's why one of my main goals has been to prevent iran from having the means to the means of mass destruction which will be used, atomic bombs, which they open It will be used against us and you can understand it how to bring about an end to grant. I ideas, I dont think I don't think it's worth while discussing them now because they might, they might required later on. He believed, the power of conversation. Since you have contacts with the latter, learn skin weimar putin. Justly sitting room and discussing how the end of what can be brought about,

This combination of that, but I think it's the question of interests in and whether you have to get both sides to a point where they think that conversation would lead to something useful that'll take their there right now. We're partners of this is just basic human. Ego stubbornness all of this between leaders, which is why bring the power of conversation, sitting in a room realizing were human beings and there's a history that connects ukraine and russia, your adopted when the to into a room right now realistic when you can posit that it would be if that could happen, but entering the room is sometimes more complicated than what happens in the room, and there is a lot of. In the pre negotiation on the negotiation, then you negotiate endlessly and then negotiate and then not even there. It had a lot of work for you to get. a handshake in the past. It's an interesting question: how did the peace, the abraham accords? How did that

again, you know I mean that we had we had decades seventy years, whether the sixty five years, whether people. You know, would not. Made openly when other or even secretly, with israeli leader We had the the massad to be making contacts with him all the time and so on, but how do we break the ice to the top level of leadership? Well, we broke the ice because I took a very strong stance against iran and the gulf states understood that iran is a formidable danger to dams. We had a common interest and the second thing is that, because of the economically, forms that we produce in Israel. Israel became a technological powerhouse that could help their nations, not only terms of anything just better in the life of their peoples and the combination of the

Of the desire to have some kind of protection in IRAN or some kind of cooperation against iran and civilian economic cooperation. Into ahead. When I gave a speech in the american congress which I didn't do lead Thirdly, I do decide to challenges sitting american president ended the so called iranian deal, which I thought would pave iran's path with gold, to be an effective nuclear power? That's what would happen so I went there and in the course of giving that speech before the joint session of congress, Our delegation received calls from glass states who said we can't believe what you, prime minister, is doing his challenging President of the united states were had no choice, and I mean because I thought

A country's own existence was impearled Remember we always understand, through change of administrations, that america under no matter what leadership is always the irreplaceable. And indispensable alive, israel and war with remainder, we we cannot arguments as we have, but in the families we send them is both a you know: it's the family, but nevertheless there was forced to take a stance that produced cause from gulf states that ultimately lead to clandestine meetings that ultimately flowd into the the abraham accords. Then- and I think we are at a point where the idea of, ending the arab israeli conflict, not the palestinian israeli conflict. The arab israeli conflict can happen, I'm not will. It depends on quite a few things but it could happen and if it happens, it might open up the ending of the

Rarely, Islam remember! The arab world is a small part, it's important part, but it's the large islamic populations and could bring about ah and then to the historic enmity between Islam and judaism and could be a great thing? So I'm looking at this larger thing, you know you can you can be hobbled I saying well. Well, you know you had this. You know this hiccup in Gaza or you This or that thing happening in the in the past, since I don't I don't it's important for us, because we want security, but I think the larger question is: can we break out into a much peace and ultimately come back and make the peace between Israel and the palestinians rather than waiting solve that, ever getting to the deal to paint on the larger canvas,

I want to paint on the larger canvas and come back to the palestine. Israeli conflict. as you re about in your book. What have you about life from your father. My father was a great historian and well he taught me some things. He said that the the first condition for living organism is to identify danger in time. because, if you don't, you could be, devoured could be destroyed very quickly and that's the nature human conflict. In fact, for the jewish people we didn't We lost the capacity to identify danger in time and we were almost divine and destroyed by the nazi threat. So when see somebody pirating the nazi goal. of destroying the jewish state.

To mobilise. country in the world in time, because I think iran is a global threat, not only a threat to Israel. That's the first thing The second thing is, I once asked him before I got elected. I said what you think is the most important quality for a prime minister of Israel, and he came back with a question. What do you think- and I said well you after vision and you have to have the another form. Flexibility of navigating and working towards that vision and be flexible, but stay where you are heading. And he said well. You need that for anything, you need at war fewer university president over your leader will corporation or anything Anybody went out to other assets, so so what you need for it to be there the leader of Israel. He said. He came back to me with the work that was done me. He said education. You need a broad and deep budget

Edition or you'll be at the mercy of your clerks or the press or whatever they have done You have to be able to do that You know, as I Ben time in government. Really being re elected in a buyer by the did the people of Israel. I recognise more and more how already was you, you need to constantly ask yourself. where's the direction we want to take the country. How do we achieve that? but also understand that new decision are being added. You have to learn all the time you have to learn. The time you have to add two intellectual capital. All the time kissinger said that he wrote that once you Public life you begin to draw your intellectual capital,

It'll be depleted were quickly. If you stay a long time. I disagree with that. I think you have to constantly constantly He's your understanding of things they change, because because my father he's right. You need to broaden and deepen your education as you go along can't just sit back, and so I studied something's universe college in boston over their mighty and that's enough. I've done it now. Learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, never stop and if I may suggest. As part of that asian. I would add in a little literature. Maybe this the asking in the in the in the plentiful of time. You have the prime minister to read while run home, but I'll tell you what I think is bigger than dostoevsky. Oh, no who's that not who's that. But what's that I was the Dan rather came to see me with his grandson.

a few years ago, and he asked me that the grandson asked me. It was a student in an ivy league college and he said is eighteen years old and he wants to study to enter politics, and he said, what's what's the most important thing that I have to study to their entire political life, and I said you have three things you have to study: okay, history, history and history: that's that's the fundamental disciplined for political laugh, but then you have to study other things I study economics, study, politics and so on and studied studied the military if you have, if you had an advantage, because I spent some years there, so I learned a lot of that, but I had to

of course, the other disciplines and you never clear enough so red we'd weed and by the way, if I have to choose, I read history, history and history: good works of history, not lousy book. Last question, you ve talked about a survival of a nation. yourself, mortal being to contemplate mortality due contemplate your death, are you afraid of death? Aren't you guess who's? Not I mean if your conscience viewer, being with conscience. I mean what unhappy things about the EU brain as it can contemplate its owner its own demise, so we have to. We all make our compromises with this, but I think the question is what lives on

lives on beyond us, and I think that you have to define how much of a posterity do you want to influence. I cannot influence the course of humanity. We are specks little aspects, so that's not the issue, but in case of devoted my love to avert defined purpose, and that is due. for the future and security and. I would say permanence, but that is obviously eliminating of the jewish state and the jewish people think one can. this, without the other so I have devoted my life to that and I hope that do in my time on this earth. And in my ears and office and have contributed to that. Will you had one heck of a life starting

for me and my tea to six terms as prime minister. Thank you for this stroll through human history answers conversation with IRAN. Thank you and I hope you come back to so many times. It, sir, the innovation nation, it's a robust democracy. don't believe all the stuff that you have been too it will remain that it cannot be any other way and its own until the other thing is the best ally of the united states and its importance is growing by the day, because our capacities and the information was growing by the day. We need a coalition of the like minded smarts this smart nation we share the blame, The values freedom and liberty with the united states listen of the smart. It means Israel is the sixth I

in america has no better ally. I now off MIKE I'm force you to finally tell me who's gonna win. You must go myself about but death the good time that we ran out of time here. I'll tell you outside thanks for listening to this conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu, to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now they believe you words from mahatma gandhi, an eye for an eye, will only make the whole world blind. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.