The following is conversational harvey silver plate, a legendary fees, which advocate co, founder of fire, the foundation for individual rights and expression and the author of several books on the freedom of speech and criminal justice. cutting the shadow university. The betrayal of liberal, america's campuses. Harvey is right. to be on the harvard border oversee as this year with writing campaign. She have to spell his name correctly, several great promising to advocate for free speech and two pushed for reducing the size of harvests, administration bureaucracy elapsed, is, over this tuesday may sixteenth at five p m eastern vote. You have to be hard on so he happened to be one. Please vote outlined the goodwill support freedom of speech on harvard campus instructions. How to do so are in the description, as a side. No, please allow me to say that, since there are several

controversial conversations coming up. I tried to Make sure that this package is a platform for free discourse where ideas are not censored, but explored if necessary, challenged a thoughtful and pathetic way. having such difficult conversations, thereby avoiding them. We can begin to heal divides and to shed light on the dark parts of human history and human nature. And now a quick you circumvention of its sponsor check them out in a description is the best way to support this podcast. We got factor for nutritious and delicious pre made meals, sympathy for home security and athletic greens for well delicious, delicious hath jews. Wasn't my friends also if you want to our work with our amazing team, were always hiring got a lex friedman, slash hiring under the full reads, as always know as the middle, I try to make his interesting, but if you must skip, please still check out the sponsors.

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in all one daily drink this for better health and pe performance. I've been drinking it every single day. Twice a day is a thing, a break, my fast with travelling at the travel packs a minute. Just it's a simple part of my day. They makes me feel at home. That makes me feel happy. It makes me feel like I have a nutritional foundation to take on the day. Into all kinds of crazy stuff, physical and mental. They do sometimes things become so an integrated part of your life, you start to take them for granted only realise how much they mean to you when they're gone. the times when I ran out of travel, packed and on travelling or or does it curveball where the travel and expect the other kind of stuff. I realize awhile there's these little part of the day. bring me joy and one of them is that

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a legendary organization that fights for the freedom of speech for all americans in our courtrooms on our campuses and in our culture. So, let's start with a big question: what is freedom of speech? First of all, the your organization, when Cofounded it in nineteen. Ninety nine was called the they for individual rights in education. It focused on foot These issues on college campuses in academia and only earlier this year, did we decide to expand? reach beyond the campuses which is why the name of the acronym fire remains its now be found station for individual rights and expression, the eu to be education, these to be education, now expression. And we basically do a lot of the cases the aseel you used to do the are you now wars? Is they thereby

as for organization rather civil liberties organization, and them we ve taken the the the role of dealing with free speech in in the society generally in analysis, Take you away a europe, prone to censorship. Everybody thinks there right that people who disagree with them should not be able to voice their views. It's very difficult period render both on campus and off campus it's about is, is intolerant. Didn't error, as I can remember, room number will be eighty one may tenth was born a mother's day. Let him fully to the camera. amber being this bad. I was born during the mccarthy era, This has allowed them it sort of winds me of that letter that almost a philosophical question, A legal question, a human question: what is this freedom, the uk,

so much about the you fought for so much famous speech. It is the most important right there. Americans, have it's not a coincidence or an accident that its named in the first amendment to the constitution, without it no democratic system they can be democratic, flawed and I'm an absolutist that is life believed it. For example, people say to me, but what about hate speech? What hate speeches much more important than love speech and the reason is a much more interested in knowing whom I should not turn my back on that I am interested in

figure who loves me for who likes me so hate speeches the most important in my view, and yet it's it's banned in, for example, schools. It's unbelievable and kids are not schooled into verb, understand in the glory of the first amendment when when schools say to them, they shouldn't say things that are going to make. Somebody feel bad. I mean the purpose of speeches to express honest views that people have and, so I believe hate speeches as important as love speech, in my view, is more important, socially

brought to the surface rather than operate in the shadows. Absolutely absolutely. What is the connection between freedom of speech and freedom of thought? Well, in a free society, thoughts start in the brain, and then they come out the mouth, so they're different ends of the same spectral. So do you the censorship of speech, eventually through censorship of thought? Of course, censorship of the mode by which other people know what you're thinking So there's some aspect of our society. That is the thinking. done collectively and without being up to speak to each other. We cannot do this kind of like the ranking

out of speed. The theory is that ultimately, every speech comes truth. That is not necessarily so, but I do think that when there is free speech, better decisions are made because people put their views on the table in a frank, accurate way, and then those views mixed together and clash, and out of that usually comes the better the better decision. Not all is but usually more more often than not Somebody is not allowed to be up. There sit at the table decision making Then the decision making process is poorer, less robust, less diverse and ultimately, less successful,

how can you elaborate on the idea of free speech? Absolutism, so hate speech can be quite pay for them. Quite a large number of people resist warrior ii up living in a free society requires that you expose yourself to some discomfort. You call it pain, it may be emotional pain, it's not physical pain, but it served it's the price we pay for living in a free society where every so often, insulted were emotionally hurry. Think of the alternative or the altar. It is a worse. Nobody ever promised us a rose garden. We're lucky to be

in a country that has the first amendment. It's also the one. It's the most diverse country in the world because of immigration I mean my my grandparents. My father's side came over from russia on my The side came from Poland. I'm very happy that my grandparents came in from russia. I would not want to be in russia today. I probably be sharing a shell with a wall street journal report so worm, and I'm thankful that they came in and then is a great country. It's got troubles right now, but a country doesn't and we ve had, for we had a civil war. We had so regulation. Oh, we have them The designation of the indians were not perfect, but it's the best. Place in the world for somebody who values liberty. So you don't think that hate speech

power, large groups, that. Eventually lead to physical action to physical harm to others. No, I don't. I think that that we have developed a culture in which it's understood that, if you don't like what you hear you you talk back and you write, you write something and we don't punch each other. We insult each other them is insulting great. Well, I dunno it's okay. I used it as a kid in brooklyn, where I was born, I was born and raised in bensonhurst. We used to say steve, two stones can break my bones. But names can never harm me and is absolutely true. If what was true when I was five is true and I'm a mom was thirty one. So I've lived a long time. I've seen it all and I'm talking from experience as well as theory. It's what happens when you reach your eighties

I, rather the other line that you cannot be protected being called an asshole correct, especially if you're an asshole without but you don't have to be an asshole to be called an ass, his career and now the internet has taught me that, while the internet is posed a particular challenge to free speech, absolute is because some of this stuff- it's all there- is god awful- but I have no different rueful freedom of speech on the internet, then I have been newspapers, worried lectures or in classrooms or, conversely, since among people? What are you about the tension between freedom of speech, and freedom of reach, as as a sometimes and for the internet really challenges. That aspect was zero become viral- spread very quickly to a very large number of here. But you know we ve. Had we ve head revolutions in

in in the the ease of communication? Actual newspapers were the first challenge. radio and television posed. A new challenge The EP cc tried but ultimately gave up the attempt to control obscenity, for example, and the supreme court has pretty close, the one thing that liberal and conservative supreme court's right now in accounts rivera dude trump nominate their nominations during the most much of my life will and cord it was removed, douglas so Brennan liberal court one thing they agree on is free speech. They don't agree and much else, but they do agree on free speech.

I think the reason is that they recognise that my group is in the ascendant today, but it may not be tomorrow and I wanna have objective clear rules so that when I'm in the minority, I'm able to voice my opinion- and so it's one of the few things both sides of the political space I agree on the only people who donor than that people way over on the right that I call the fascist to the people way over on the left, who are the communists bum, but with respect to most people in this on the political spectrum. Republicans Democrats, socialists libertarians, and they agree on the primacy of free speech because it protects them when when protection is needed, so do you even on the internet free speech, absolutism should rule yes,

nobody's gonna die. River death threats are not protected. nobody's gonna die to appeal we're going to be a little bit insulted, that's the price you pay for living in a free society and it's a small price, my view of people, some people, have as tough as high as others will then develop one I don't mean to sound the cruel but you live in a free society, develop a tough hide so that the car living in a free society up the road there's a cost and the thing is they can really hurt at scale to be cyber boyd to be attacked for the ideas expressed. Maybe may be ideas you didn't express, but there

If somebody decided to lie about you- and I use that to to attack you well first of all, there are there were so there is some exceptions. The first two million libel and slander is an exception, direct threats or an exception if you, if you say so that everybody you that is not lawful. If you said it somebody it if you say about somebody oh you know, em you beat your wife that that is not lawful. If, in fact, the person knows you dont be wife, there arson limits. Defamation is one direct threats or another, so it's not absent. This is not. The first moment is not absolute, but this is it's more. Absolute them? There isn't any of the society and its

de near absolute for visible fraud. If you were sell, somebody had a car, and you say: oh, this is in great running shape and in fact it's an old jalopy and it's not going to make it more than ten miles. That's fraud, that's not free speech, and so free speech is not absolute there are these limits, but a very narrow, specific categories of limits. But this grey area here because, while legally you're not allowed to defame a person in the corner public opinion, especially the aid of anonymity on the internet. The rumours can spread at scale. Thousands hundreds of thousands of people can make up things about you. You have to defend yourself using more speech. We were big, were through freedom, respect. You were big boys and girls. You have to defend yourself

You know in some societies, if you say something the t right now, say something there see about Putin, you'll end up in the gulag you nasty about biden you end up in the new york times. Where would you rather be? Well, let's talk about, the thing you ve done for over twenty years, which has fight for the freedom of speech on college campuses, so wise freedom of speech, important college campuses. Well, it's important everywhere in the society put its most important college campuses. Why cause that's where we, kate, our young citizens, and if you are educated under a notion that some dean can can that on the carpet, because you say something which is considered racist or you can say something wishes. since then? You're dangerous too,

social cohesion. Then It's not a liberal arts college know them the theory that are you, in the shadow university. A book you written the shadow universe. Ninety ninety eight, ninety, ninety eight you ahead of a lot of these, that I was. I am afraid that, as as a pessimist are you We saw the bedside of things. Betrayal liberty, America's campuses, the shower university. There bookie co, authored with Alan Charlie. It's warm my prison classmates. Alan chose causes Now what emerges professor of enlightenment, history of the universe? You Pennsylvania, I only towards the one semester and I can go into that later. The other reason I did not continue to teaching colleges

it is hard harvard law school. I told a course in mid nineteen eightys, but in any event, the college campuses are one of the most important of all fora for free speech. Is this where people get education and if you dont really get a good education. If certain points of view are not allowed to be expressed because education comes from the clash of ideas and you then have to decide. This is the this is how you become a thinking adult or you have to decide which ideas make more sense to you, which ones you are going to follow and the college experience is transformative and the. If there is, as for shipment campuses, its highly destructive of the educational enterprise and ultimately to the entire society.

You know we have in the sciences. We have a scientific method scientific method. Is you try experiments and you see which ones work and yet you develop theories based pilot results of experiments. But this is not much. And from every other aspect of life. You have to entertain different views on different subjects, you, hear all the views and you make a decision as to which ones are accurate, which ones not so civic method. I apply to urban none science to history, to journalism to all these things, so that centred method includes ideas, hateful ideas, ass, correct. If you don't allow hateful ideas I mean, when, when scientists to experiments that nobody says to the oh, you know: don't don't do that experiments, because

be very bad. If it turns out to be accurate that outcome, that's not the way it works. every every point of view is thrown into the marketplace, but by the whether of weather. You know none size, and that includes the if I d as in the kind of discourse and might actually lead to greece in hay and canvases. The the the first amendment prohibits speech which is liable to produce it imminent, imminent violence. So, for example, do you know the m? The exception? Isn't yelling or falsely falsely yelling fire in a crowded movie theater a lot of people miss David is a row and the exception is yelling fire in a movie theater with is really a fire you're performing the wrong passport, functional major airport, but its full

Slily fire start? A riot people would be crushed, try to get out so there these, That's one of the exceptions to the first amendment as the supreme court is defined. It there are very few exceptions an defamation, is an exception. I'm a matter and of that exception. Frankly, by if you will say something about somebody there, has serious implicate in their role and their life. In their ability to earn a living? if you say that you somebody of being a pitiful, but it's not true that person can sue you My own view is, I think, that's an unfortunate exception, but I met the supreme court. I think. the man, I'm I'm with friend of mine was no hint of that had tough who wrote for decades,

for the village voice in new york He was a friend of mine, he was a free speech, absolutist and there he wrote a fabulous book called free speech for me, but not for thee and he was an absolutist it. I'm I'm with I'm with merit of even information aspect Emmy. I agree with you in some sense, just practically speaking. It seems like that. the way. The best way in the public sphere, to defining as defamation is with more speech. Correct and through authenticity, authentic communication of the truth. As you see it, yet you know all the times the boston globe. You said something about me: it hasn't been agri. They have published my letter to the editor, morceau were that bashful about getting in charge in touch with the report.

The end of every column they give the reporters, email address and I know people say that I have more access to the media. The most people buy them or that Soon, as I get the fame were the most people, can we also comment on from needed joel consumer of speech. There is a kind of sense that freedom of speech means your. You should be forced to read all that freedom of speech versus freedom of reach. We, as consumers are speech, do have the right to select what we read. We do and dumb that nobody can. Force us to sit in a room and listen to a radio program that we don't want to listen to the american forces to read a book that we don't want to read.

the whole motion of freedom of speech means it. People have vote autonomy on their choices in order to form a complete, my complete human being there's a kind of tension. Of that autonomy? Verses, see me as many varied perspectives as possible, which is underlined the ethic of free speech, so on college campuses. It seems like a good with developed the mind to get as many perspectives as possible. Even if you don't really want to all that. That is the theory. Academic freedom is would be, is supposed to be the highest degree of free speech, you should be able to ascertain what kinds of hateful threatening ideas and ended the way I put it there's something wrong. When you can say something with complete, abandoned

without any fear, inherit square where's. the side of the fence. You can say it and harvard yard should be the opposite. And what happens is universities from the best to the worst from the most famous to the least well known, had been taken over by a minute It is administrators, do not really subsume academic values, they don't know. Think about the constitution. They know nothing about free speech that you feel bad academic freedom. They feel that their job is to keep water, and so they develop speech codes, kangaroo court to it for the speech cause and these very diet developments. I wrote about them in the sharing university receiving ninety eight and try to deal with them.

Maybe ninety nine story, fire co, started fire and dumb. I would fire. The reason I'm running currently for the horrible of overseas is but I'd like to do is convinced the harvard cooperation so called present. Then fellows of harvard college. The chief governing board the university with the real power border policies is a secondary body, but quite influential. to fire ninety five percent of the administrators. It would have it now you terry effect on the academics. university would have a salutary effect of free speech, namely freedom. It would cut tuitions by about forty percent and and it will create a whole different atmosphere. On the campus and the same set of mit any other place? I think administrate These are a a

very bad the influence on american higher education gear. Sort of elaborate Who is why this thing that you call administrative blowed is such a bad thing for university, but worst of all, just in terms of the the cost of maintaining. There are more administrators in america, education than they were faculty members. The cost is enormous number two they are inimical to thee the the teaching enterprise. And then they feel that their job is to control things to make sure there are no problem is in nobody's feelings, are her being called it it'll be before a dean, because you said something that insult

If somebody is something that shouldn't happen in america higher education, yet it happens because you have these administrators who think it's their job to protect people from insulted you, you insult a black student. You insult the woman: does it hearing, but they shouldn't be black. People are accustomed to being insulted jews. Your cousin accustomed accustomed beans, old women, are at present being solid and is very good to know who doesn't like you its useful. It is very you it is essential information want to know like you. If everybody is forced to say I love you and nobody can say I hate you, you get a force view of what life is all about outside of the university outside the university or any. You do graduate eventually.

And that's all to me, the mission of the universities, to prepare you to make you into a great human being into a great leader that can take on the problems of the world correct, and you don't do it by by trees You like, like a little flour about what? Fraud is the university have to protect students to women african americans? Maybe jews ab who gets a victim of hate speech. They they they protect you from physical assault, somebody physically the soul. You, then they young that they get punished, but they shouldn't they shouldn't. Protect you guess insult because that is a violation of academic freedom. The freedom of the insulting to insult you and also, as I said, it's very you. will to know and like you is useful for the so called victim. I Needless to said, I want to know who doesn't like me: it's

important to me is dying who who, like me, but you also believe in this open space of discourse that the insult or will eventually lose. I think that's true, I think of the insult or eventually we're out his or her welcome. I do, but I I like to know who the insult us, because it gives you deep understanding of human nature yeah I am, and usually by the way, my experience has been that the insults have generally not been the smartest people live, insulted and that's probably one of the reasons they insulted, because they feel inferior man that trying to beer, psychoanalyst here, but a lot of people who were the haters her prey down in the intellectual scale. Anyway. Ninety five percent of administration, you would fire you're calling to fire ninety five percent to the administration people

you should know, I think people they don't really think about. The structure who are the universities. Work are not familiar think of the fact that administration does a huge blow to administration, When you think about what makes a great university it's about the students, it's about the faculties about the people that research of their research university, they don't think about The bureaucracy of meetings in committees and rules on paper work and all that and all the people that are involved with pushing a kind of paper and there's a huge cost to that. But all slows down as suppresses the beautiful variety that makes you know the great, which is the teaching the student life, the protests, the there's the club all the funding you can have a university or the very kind of exploration which you can't really do want to graduate correct the place

yours is a place, a really explore everything away. So let me just talk about the simple thing, because I'm very fortunate to have contacted you almost by accident in a very important moment in your life, you're running for the harvard board of overseers. What is this? Bored how much power does it have and what would you do if elected, ok, First of all, however, I have a prediction: yes, that in about five here's the republic change the name, because overseers revised people of the south every year, and worry that such a politically correct here now, That the english language is being restricted corrupted, where put it. Because certain words are up or forbidden. We We have. Some problems in this country that are part of the problem is the edge occasional system has

was the sense of what academic freedom and free speech were all about and dumb. Anne and them, I think, is essential that the educational system begin to take more seriously what free speech there really are described for the harvard board of overseers so just a link on the wrong? administration in protecting free speech. So what often happens I d give written about this is there's going to be a few. maybe a small number of hypersensitive students and faculty the protests. So how does harvard administration resists, the influence of those sensitive protesters in protecting speech and protecting even hate speech harvard is the early well under the presidency of large bacco. I have had a couple of meetings with tobacco. I

back how I have dominated to harvard a prince my late, but my late wave, took a picture of bob Dylan announcing ginsburg when the rolling sunday review at harvard square, and it's him It's a river iconic, further words. She called it the music lessons. Guess it's got dylan teaching ginsburg how to play the guitar. And I donated one of those two, the harvard its head. Thinking in backhoes office. He, the new president, Claudine gay, is not known for respecting academic freedom and free speech. People have said to me we'll give her a chance well I'll. Among the virgins But she does have a record and their she's a bureaucrat. I don't think she believes in free speech and academic freedom. He's a progressive, not a liberal, I am not happy with the the the the

the appointment of view for gay game. Is made more essential. My attempt to get on the board of overseers Let's talk about the board of overseers and your run for it, the specific sector. only you be nice because I think you are A writing candidate Annie. action is over. I may sixteenth, yes, and I think they're specifics are probably give them any ensure give links to people, but the specific so complicated. Then it just mention that you have to be harvard alumni have graduated from harvard you have to to run in order to vote in order to vote and the processing Imagine is not trivial butter. If this is done on line and If you're an alumni, you should have received an email from a particular email address harvard at m election services. Korda com

presumably there's a way to get some validation number from that. And then you go online you to develop Numbering your vote to vote for our harvey have to enter his name correctly harvey several late and spy correctly, Obviously, I'm imagining this because I'm eighteen at harvard So I'm imagining the process is not trivial, as you have to click on things, You have to have the structures that are not trivial and add also provide an email. If the process is painful, work for you that you can email he email harm complain, I t help at harvard idea. And so on are provide all the links There's something else. You can say about the voting process, What you're running on this list

second, IRAN, the first time I got enough signatures to get on about then, the harvard alumni association sent out a letter to all living hovered loves recommending that the vote for the visually nominated candidates that excluded to petition candidates, of whom I was one and I wrote to the alumni association and I said you now set out the curriculum vitae ties policy positions of all the officially now maybe candidates there to petition can

it's on the ballot. I would like to be able to send out my positions to the voters. They wrote me back saying: our policy is to only send out. the policy positions and the platforms of officially nominee kid is: can you believe that? Well The liberal arts college right from the where, from a clash of ideas, truth of well really this is what I call harvard's, not so subtle means of candidates, oppression at voter suppression, candidates, oppression and them everybody can vote, but not everybody can run or it is ill book ill becomes. A liberal arts college where you know the clash of

These will produce the truth whereby the class of ideas on the board oversees the board of offices is important. It doesn't have the same power. The authority is the harvard cooperation, the so called president fellows of harvard college, but its very influential and them very important, and it would be a great perch. To try to exert influence for the university to get back to where it was before was taken over by the administrators. well, I'm pretty sure that most them harvard alumni, most students currently gonna, harvard most the faculty at harvard probably, and behind their ideas and the ideals that you stand behind. The people that love harvard unwanted stands for. She had the love- my were educated in here with these concepts were taken more seriously and before the administrations that measures took over So I do see if I get my message I want to see

and if I went to see, I will have a great perch for food for trying to convince the real power that bit, which the harvard cooperation to do the things set up, suggesting you government I five presented. Mr There's get rid of this speech codes reduced tuition by forty percent, all of these salutary benefits. can you imagine if harboured became the most affordable college, yeah states well The affordability is another aspect, but I think before that the justice, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, yet in america's greatest universities, I think is something that everybody would agree on it. It have a it would have a tremendous affair. The whole country and is there something to say about the details of how difficult it is

for a long time to vote will experience with the z, the uk, The vote I mind you can vote by pit the ballot. If you request the paper ballot and I can say is that the hard part is getting the message out. My name. Isn't it here on the ballot, because I couldn't get enough, say: bushes, while harvey harvey silver glade, It's? I o v e r g l, a t. You know when my grandparents arrive from russia and the the name in russia was suddenly like zil cliff and they gratian officer had several choices. He could have said silver gate gate is a real silver engage, really english words. He could have said silver glade, jelly D. Does it really was Schwartz? That's how my name is often the spell the silver gate. Silver glade, silver glade is nonsense. Syllable.

And why the immigration officer chose then slid arrayed silver, Zobeide, lead as Silverglade I'll. Never stared at it is the cause of endless mistakes in my name. What are you fundamental absurdity of life, yes, is also the source of his beauty is anyway, we shall spell it out, and we shall get yo loud and a wide that everybody's who's ever graduate from harvard vote for you, believe in the ideals of the greater at the universities, which I think most people do. Let me also ask about diversity. inclusion and equity programs. You ve, been you ve, had a few harsh worse. To say about those they d of diversity, I think, is a beautiful ideal

I you said that harvard's idea of diversity is for everyone to look different and think alike. Correct. Can you elaborate him and be comfortable and be comfortable? First of all, it is impossible if liberal arts education is taken seriously, it's impossible. The students to feel comfortable. Why? Because one of the roles of colleges challenge or the believes that they grew up with which mostly the beliefs inculcated. by parents and by elementary school teachers, and the idea is to be able to challenge those thoughts the ideas, and if you don't have free speech and academic freedom, those views get real fight. They do not get challenged, so it is it. violates the fundamental role of hiring? occasional institutions to have any

Instructions rob that's number one number, two as I think I said earlier, if people students were not allowed to be frank with one another, really learn about one another and dumb you I know given a lot of lashes in which I said, I think students now understand it, much more. If you didn't hearing from the people who haven in the people who love me a mushroom didn't knowing who disagrees today than people who agree with me that's how I learn and that's how they learn clash of ideas, which is the theory behind the first amendment. The truth will somehow a merger of my truth at least a better truth, a true truth, a more useful truth

The ideas are allowed to clash, especially the structure of university, where at least I would say there some set of rules, some sort of civility. I think I would rather read my comp to understand and people that hate there is all equality to disagreement that wishes try for, and I think, a place Where are we now agreement and even hate is allowed, is done effort way somebody asked me once about what books I would want. Is required. Reading in Your courses night listed my comp and they were horrified as it was for the most important books of the twentieth century, Six million jews died. An enormous number of other people died.

Is one guy wrote a book called mind confirmed, took it seriously, it's one of the most important books ever written. How can how can an educated person not have at least breezed through mein kampf, and them it's not a great read, though it's not a great read. He was not a great writer, but you, you do get a sense is the the sociopath that was adolf hitler. Yes, because he really acted on the words he wrote yeah and it was there. Air and if people took out work seriously correct They would have understood, It was the most important books of the twentieth century and it is politically correct, you read it it's crazy. But can you speak to the the efforts? Greece, diversity in universities, which I think

embodied in this I d. I e effort of diversity, inclusion and equity programmes. Where did they go right with it too? They go wrong. Ok, let me tell you first of all that this may surprise you are a people. I am opposed to affirmative action and I think that what it does is it labels people by their race? by their religion, by their national origin. Precisely what we don't want. People to do is be pigeon hole in those Echo is the reason. The firmer Action, has become the way that you diversities decided who gets a bit. It is these. Historically people

what's called marginalized groups: blacks, gaze hispanics have been discriminated against in the admissions process now. What I have suggested is that, instead of affirmative action and by the way His prediction, the supreme court, is going to abolish affirmative action is case, penniless, arbed case it's as if there were two cases joined together. one of a public university and one of a private university private universities harvard predicted. The supreme court will vote six. three to abolish affirmative action. Eight is on its face

it is a violation of equal protection of a law. Some groups are favoured because of race or ethnicity is less violation of equal protection clause. When affirmative action was approved, the deciding vote was just the sand. With day o connor. She wrote a very famous opinion in which he said, I'm hesitate to vote, up to keep up their. Do you affirm that notion of from innovation, because this session obvious violation of equal protection, but we have an early problem, the society we are needed, Educating our members of racial?

within minorities, and we have to try to get them into our colleges and so are more. I think it should be approved for twenty five years and the it will. It should be issued in twenty five years issued before this role? Will it hasn't and the twenty five uses coming up, I think, is three or four used left the supreme court is going to abolish it. You can take my word for them, because it is such an obvious violation of equal protection. Why you? Why did the form of action coming? play, because the secondary in elementary schools who so bad public secondary, nourishes disobeyed. Why are they so bad, partly because of the control of the tissues junior, has randy? Will language runs but the school

system in the united states- and what I have suggested is that the effort should be To this is an emergency, a national emergency to improve the quality of elementary and secondary education, and one way to do it is the higher teachers who are fabulous rather than theirs, to sell the members of the union. I have come to oppose public workers unions. I am a very strong supporter of view. news in the private sector, wide awake. Think this such a difference between unions in the public sector and the private sector, and the private sector management is arguing bargaining

its own money and with them when they have she arose in the public sector. only one side. There is the teachers union and then this is who committee that is dealing with the taxpayers money, not their own, and so is it very skewed power about so, As for support of his, I am of private sector unions. I am in a position of public safety is the very destructive I think without teaches you didn t. Those who are really skill will be able to get jobs. They would not have to worry. The seniority of teachers who since have given up bleak, creative teaching. And we have to improve the public educational system had in my way wife, and I Had a classmate him.

We have a son, was now forty four who went to the public's poison. Came he as a friend. first name, you Jeanne, who was black, hid from roxbury, whose mother understood that the schools, That's really terrible. Schools in cambridge were pretty good here, lived in our house monday to friday, and he went to school with isaac in the cambridge public schools for, I would show up the school committee. the things when there was bargaining between the teachers union and the school committee and the teachers' union objected to our being there. We argued with taxpayers. We have just A kidney school we have with is his best friend lives with us and goes to school with them

Oh, we have a real interest and them these school committee worked out the boiling session. The city council them reconsider its vote. They voted that we, the citizens, taxpayers, parents, have kids school, could not show up To these negotiations sessions, I thought that was absolutely outrageous but I understood why, because these contracts are crazy, No sane, meaning capacity should in some of these contracts and them so I am, I have become an opponent of the actual teaches association. The became tissue. You love, heresies association, I think there should be unions for public employees.

no real bargaining going on, and then I think that the public courses will never be improved as long as he the june list, so that do you ask the core of the problem that results in the of inequality of petunia that affirmative action does not resolve is only if the education. The system in the elementary and high school levels is improved. We wouldn't need affirmative action, he's kids would yet good education's So from all backgrounds work is in the united states will get good at it patient through far public unions abolished correct. And but you more only the postal service would probably worked there too However, the conversation you at the core of the problem, inequality and

adversities that done diversity, inclusion, equity programmes are trying to solve. Is the public education system of secondary education? Correct elementary and second elementary and secondary education was then is their use? What is the benefit. What is the drawback of via D, I e diverse, inclusion and equity programmes at universities are covered its reform of action, basically there and what? Does it allows the system of elementary and secondary education to be bad, because They could say all we gotta kids into harvard. But you have an educated them and it is where's up the wound, I think we will never improved, is laws were able to cover up the wound and, as I say, Affirmative an of action is gonna, be abolished by the supreme court. Is

clear violation of equal reflections, what's savage day, o Connor understood but ignored intentionally, but as an experiment, and I believe it's going be abolished. That's gonna have this kind of force the elementary and high schools to get serious, Do you see the same issues that you discuss now at harvard down at mit I hear boston so as to talk about the the great universities here in Boston. You've read: bottom eighty: emma Jane. I love I'm a research scientist there do you see the same kind of issues there? Yes, I do. Do you remember you can explain a case of dorian abbot lecture. There was, mighty, yellow with either was visit This is not the only not the only incident, the abolition of all around the country of four prove academics, professors who have used it, don't comport,

With thea as the great lillian home in another friend of my late wife, said day day day. She said she refused to cut her garments in order to fit the fashions of the day. dorian abbot didn't cut his suit to fit the fashions the date in his intellectual suit. And so he was. This has happened at princeton, as has happened at harvard. This has happened at mit The great universities in the country decided that the clash of ideas is not such a good idea, because some people's feelings will be her well. This is there was quite a revolt against it air sounded the alarm.

And then, in the end the universities were both, I believe ever was vital to come back. I think he turned him down by his eyes. He shouldn't have turned it down, but he did and when, when the latest case, the boy the situation was the university's back down some barest and the newspapers, because newspapers depend on the first amendment in order to exist. Newspapers tenth, give pretty good publicity to these. If that is so, they grow the universities. Yet as it is really emphasise, they catalyze the embarrassment. Yes so that one of the ways that the best way to fight all this yes sancho and is the best disinfectant you written about it connection and Geoffrey Epstein desk. He was well and did at mit and at harvard what are you? What lessons to draw

about human nature, about universes about all this. From the from this saga, let me say this: I believe if that universities, if somebody was for example, donate through university and donates on the book. Climate that the building me navy up to them if the university is taking the donations and person is fun, a building unit and wants to believe in the afternoon. The delay should be name if they him humber them harvard his patients. Now, if the sack were building because sat with the saddles had been, now a persona non grata because of their role in producing the opium aids that caused huge scan. As the only pointed diction, there are people who,

Why do we have removed the name sack or from the sat the rock regime at harvard larry back? How the president of parliament, to his credit, has refused to do that then the end if it reminds people that the money was earned through ok you it that's good, that's good, that people understand that. That's where the surplus, their money, they should be run in the mail Is it in my arm of the gradual alma mater princeton? There's a movement who remove the name woodrow wilson, because we will who was president of princeton before he became governor of new jersey before he became vision, states how we got to be new jersey was. He was so insufferable that the trustees at princeton, the to run for governor the jersey they ve had said we have to get this guy and them

not because it was at its height blacken of his head miracles. The trustees words well, but because he just was insufferable, he drove the fact The crazy and though they got about and so the princess was thinking of changing the name. I wrote a letter to president ice screwed prince saying the of the day. This is partly in overseas history. You don't wanna, we, you are a rewrite history. Fourthly, the woodrow wilson was the president of this institution. He was one of your predecessors He never answer me either. I think these people are they. They know they have no answer the ring I didn't get a response from present ice river. Is the same as the reason I didn't get a response from the had mastered milton enemy. They understand that what they do. Nothing is vile. Of five of the funding the precepts of academic institutions There were shame they there, they feel they have,

no choice because they feel that they would be created As for racism, homophobia bob about the level of that, criticized by how many people well, they feel. they would be criticized by students and parents and donors. I disagree with that. I asked We think there are more people out there that agree with me that I agree with them a large margin by a large margin in call the real world, which is the world outside the canvas, but academics are afraid they be criticised at their incredibly Then there was the academic set mean accurately measures. The very skin, politically correct hole than now. As I said, I would fire danny ninety five percent of a man. I would be more careful in who, while elected sylvie distances, she said I said Pauline gay is probably gonna, be a disaster at harvard fatigues guts. It takes courage to be

in the administration, when the task of protecting the freedom of speech there also, which is Are requires you to admit and to uphold the mistakes you have done in the past, correct, not to hide them correct and that due to you in a jiffy I've seen for harm, and for mits a very recent mistake of this debate, whether it's a mistake, they took money from him. Yes, okay! Is it a mistake to take money from bad people? Do you have to do a morals test of a potential donor? I don't think so. There is an obligation, because if there are no conditions attached to it, I did some away complicated. I dont think that it is rationally complicated. It's mostly complicated his books,

weekly complicated if they want naming rights. As you know, the Jeff Jeffrey Epstein's biological laboratory, though that would be a problem for most universities, and I don't think the naming rights have to be given the somebody they eat the euro because worthy of having their name. I think the university has the right to say: no, we'll will take your money. but we will not make the building. If you had to have a right to do that degree in which you whitewash the name, though, if you now will not now with, namely rights, but it is at your money if you were the money it allows the person. In the public discourse to say that there are collaborating their working together with harvard, and what am I do. I have a problem with universities making morals tests azure of dollars because

now. Every donors spares Epstein, but some of the donors the money in industry by being rapacious by paying low wages by exploiting people. You gonna make the case that accepting money from the department of defense from darpa found. The united states organizations that contributed to wage war, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians over the past few decades correct folks, like the tenure yes or no jobs you'll make the case at that far more evil than accepting money from Jeffrey ass? It is Jeffrey. Epstein is unknown, pedophile, yes, so that's why I say I would that would not give him naming right. I think you diversity has the autonomy to not give naming raised, but I giving morals tested. Donors is a

Pandora's box. What do you think about the aftermath of the journey up saga it feels like a familiar with harvard response, but mit. I just seem to fire few scapegoats: and it didn't seem like a junior response of two. The evils that human beings are capable of serve big, rising to the surface, the description in A transparent way of all the interactions, it happened, Jeffrey Epstein. What that means? What what that means? the role of money need averse. What I mean is about just he will empower money, money essential to run the university, One of the reasons is essential is because the university is artificially artificially requires

huge amounts of money, and that's partly because of the administrative army, the they that they support They wouldn't be less dependent on the Jeffrey Epstein of the world. If they didn't have theirs Sort of all part of the same circle is minimal. his attention here. You're saying we shouldn't be putting a morals test on money, but actually, if you make it expand the motto money needed to run the university, this you're, going to make less and less up more more unethical If the decision correct of accepting emphasis that I I am flexible enough to say that I don't think I would name a building after somebody who is truly evil. Efek university has the has the right to live the naming rights donor- if an absolutist. I would even say that from a matter of absolute.

I have a limits and that's one of them did the jeffrey, esteemed biological laboratory. It's a little bit much. It feels there's should be a requirement on there. Should be more requirements and who to accept money from, but action. Is that the concern you have as about who gets to decide and what the alternative I think there is no alternative. I think The turning down donation, because you you you, don't proof of the commander to the donor. He is a pandora's box I'm just sitting by the fact that an evil he would being was allowed to walk in the hall of a university. I love. So what do we do with that? Well

is telling me that no, the students who are evil. Are you telling me that the faculty members are you telling me so, but none of the administrators are evil, but that doesn't share share so saying scapegoating, saying that Jeff you have is evil can help us forget, can It is in forgetting that there is other evil in the world and so of it might be roaming still the halls of mighty and hard hit. Listen. Don't tell me the name, but I represented somebody in the mit administration. A few years ago, who is to rule is charged with the sexual improprieties against students. and as a lawyer, I represented a person of people say we help It represents some of the people. I represent a bad people say: how can you represents yeah. Well, if I was a cardiologist in this person had a heart attack on the street. They didn't delivers,

here I would be by less, is taken away, I'm a lawyer. give me my obligation and that this obligation is. The constitution, gives people the right to a system of council. They don't have, does. It says nothing about the assistance. A cardiologist I have a very high do eat represent an unpopular people were thinkers. I apply the same tests to judge. I wish the owners of the universe did. He should not have a morrows test whose money to take do draw along about naming rights of buildings and as it as an income, This, the sea with my absolutism, but I just Emotionally I just can't deal with having you know. You said the Jeffrey upstream biological laboratory. Well, for me emotionally, there's nothing! There sickens me more in the university. The navies of power.

Rape and there's a lot of a lot of people who abuse power you, firstly, especially when it comes to abuse power of students, grew so, sure harassment. So in the round, of sexual abuse of power. And all kinds of other religions crime to use was power position in order to think sexual advantage of a student. It's a crime. This is not a closed question. Yeah but it there's a legal crime, and there is deeply ethical crime and, as an emotional response that I have. You are a good lawyer, and perhaps a good man to want to defend some eggs for evil in this world, think. I have that emotional fortitude, whether you shouldn't be again of the fence lower or a cardiologist. I think you're right, I'm so deeply sickened by Geoffrey Epstein and the fat,

called tee. The administration is still might be in these great american universities that are abusing their power. his small ways and big ways. That's human nature. He got a little bit of power in here Bad men are a bad woman. He take advantage of it we see that in the smallest ways and the biggest voice, now institutions and regimes all across the world boy harvey is a complicated situation, both the cup. ok, the world and it's complicated to be a human being, and this is nothing new and wish to talk about it without restriction. All right, just to linger on liberal arts in two thousand fourteen, and probably still today, you the liberals are killing the liberal arts. Yes seeking explain. Yes, the problem with. I'm a political liberal.

problem with, though the the political left is that it has divided between what's called progressives and liberals Liberals or people of the left who believe in the first amendment absolute first amendment and then due process of law and dumb The problem with what progressive is now in the pursuit of equality with a view as equality there willing to bend. Those rules and this move and actually started in brandeis. The the critical is the critical race theory. It started herbert bar coups. It was a professor of bread, nice and he came up with this

theory the fury was this though this is re out of war, will in order to hurry. True, of course, in a society where you have some downtrodden and some some were the over mention. In order to create real equality, you have to reduce the rights of the upper classes and artificially increase the rights of the lower classes and them That will produce a core arab arab, unequal treatment of true equality will be both will be this is nonsense, the idea Of discrimination producing true equality is nonsense, my view is as I've, earlier in our discussion.

that the way to increase the opportunities for the lower classes is to give them real education's and until we that is not going to happen, and in order to do that, we have to overcome the problem. the teachers unions at the elementary and secondary school levels until are willing to do that honestly and they create improve those schools? We're gonna have a problem of large number of uneducated people who need a boost because we haven't given them proper education. waiting about some of the more controversial faculty in the world, so

ample somebody. I spoke with many times, unlike an offline jordan petersen, I'm not sure if you familiar with his work, yes, but he is an outspoken critic of awe or proponent of free speech on campus and has been attacked quite It is a controversial figure. Throughout the universe to protect the jordan persons of the world. I think university hasn't absolute, absolutely not relative about war that absolute role obligation to protect academically of even the most controversial faculty members and them You can imagine our university cap. Is you have more people who were outliers than you do the general population and and the that's the hope at least hopefully here and end them and those outliers have to be protected and they can't be pressure. They can't be fired. They

he had been disabled from spilling their their views, whether they concern racist, whether they consider to be promoted? the view of human society. It is considered that marshes it. It doesn't matter if you can, if the, if he can have freedom of thought and the college campuses. Where can you use them were lost as a society were lost and as an educational institution, education institutions google educate they will indoctrinate that we have. To avoid at all costs we should remember that the outlier might also, be the only bearer of truth. So, nazi germany speaking a guess, the fascism, fascist regime, in communist soviet union speaking against communism. They might hold the key to solve in air the elements of that societal, absolutely in some of them,

Important discoveries in science, for example, as were rub, were row mocked at the beginning. think of poor, charlie Darwin charlie. I see he's a nickname levels with you. I won't work, we're talking about these big topics of sexism, racism and hate. You should not forget about the smaller topics with mighty have the much bigger impact, which is what yours into which is. Liar idea, is in size. So, basically warping welcoming, Controversial ideas and science, and by controversial? I mean just stuff that that most the commission does not agree on. It does now The harmony one at all even then, there's always pressure. Things I'm really concerned about is how little power young faculty have that there's a kind of hierarchy seniority saw that universities have empowered by the

ministration where the young man, could you come in? Their kind pray, pray pre, you prepare, the there's are: does a process in chasing tenure? Will your kind of supposed to behave and there's an incentive to color fit in and to not be an outcast and that as a rule. The huge problem because oftentimes the youth. is when the craziest, the biggest ideas, the revolution, ideas common. If you are forced to behave and fit in and not speak and even in the realm of science, though, the innovation is stifled. Looking out you know you trivial, maya, The area you this story, the- u triggered! This- is good in the mid nineteen eightys, I decided to take a four month. Sabbatical from my law practice has professor james member, who was at the time dean of the year,

law school heard about it heard about from his wife Elizabeth Betty Wurtemberg whom I was very friendly with because we're both on the a he'll you, the asia you'd best uses both time and them. The betty told Jim that hardly was taking a sabbatical called harvey and asked harvey if he would like to teach course at the harvard law. School because there was nobody who had taken criminal law from the perspective of somebody who actually was in court litigate, there was all theoretical. I said sure I'll do it. I taught us semester at harvard law, school. The student evaluations will fabulous. Why because it was really interesting. They were hurried, a lawyer who talk about real cases. I actually work in the view of my clients, seventh places and them so

jim called me had hurry. Students love this course. I'd like that. What he would tenure track position at the law school you'd have to give up. Your practice turned him down here. did you just say no, I said yes, I said no, he said how come he says. Nobody of it is ever in my industry. Has ever turned down a penny for echo offer at harvard law school. So because I could see- I met a good fit that didn't. The strangers are over run the place the faculty members, especially until huge, who are afraid to say things that might not get help them in tenure quest. Do it, sir or ma'am. It's, not a good faith. In me. I saw this in amendment nineteen These are areas where prevention, eighty five and them I went back to my lot practice. I did not want it

get it through. This me cry the that I saw it right. I started to see it before The turn of the century, co authored the shadow university. Ninety eight and then cos founded fire and ninety nine about early student of this phenomenon. What are some other aspects Is this the book? The shadow university we may have not covered, but let it let me tell you the way, I believe I tell it the sheltie rescue cause. It was part of I'm loving. These stories hurry the stories of fabulous, but let me tell you a story of 'em. I I did a tour of the country go visiting campuses, I visited couch hold called hamline university level was in indiana illinois summer, the mid west did a freshman orientation they'll! Listen to this.

This is a fresh florian orientation. The administrators deans and the dinettes and the deputy assistant genes and dns that third deputy assistant, deans and venus lions students up according to their skin hues, boy. The the blue, blue eyed white folks were at one in the darkest african americans, who it, whose what had not yet did mixed with any other weight. and what are the other rib and the extra I wish you had to tell How you raise affected yours, excess life up until that point. I thought I was the most meaning thing. Why could imagine demeaning I for them

myself: they could do the same about sexual orientation. They do the same What religion they hated him. National origin, it would beat me no matter what add, at the students actually vote, realized how their race had either been plus or minus they did. They did And I thought it was so demeaning it just confirmed, or my distaste for this kind of work, this kind of approach Let me ask you from the interviewer seat I get to do this podcast and I often have to think about giving a large platform having a conversation with Very controversial figures and the the level of controversy has been slowly increasing was the role of this medium tee to you,

This means a speech retained to people and new speaking with a controversial figure, me or some other interviewer was the role of giving platform to controversial figures. Say members of the kkk or dictators people who are seen as evil, but we want to face the world with reality. And the reality is that there is some unpleasantness. Unpleasantness is in the world running from genocide right through to ordinary discrimination to offensiveness it's the real world, as we we know exists, we afraid to say it. Do we want to make people think that we live in a world where those words were not used where those animosities don't exist. The answer is no, but you couldn't wait why she can normalize. These are those words you can why wash the accepted,

If certain leaders have, for example, interviewing hitler in nineteen thirty, eight nineteen, thirty five. Not thirty, six, thirty, thirty, seven. Thirty, eight, those all different dynamics there could normalize this person and in doing create enormous harm, was he added see this normalized. I see this exposing. If more people had taken montcalm, seriously frank and rose, what would have acted, much Sooner, he only got us into the war as congress years into the war when the japanese made the mistake of attacking pearl harbor, but there were some people The state department that was some people in the administration who were trying to try to get Roosevelt see. What hitler was really like and he was born, into it. This is one of the greatest

in the united states ever he was blind to it until the japanese attack pearl harbor. So I think that words unpleasant ideas as expressed by roads, are essential for communicating fact inch in reality and that's why I think we should not whitewash languish. We should not whitewash the fact. The Jeffrey Epstein was pretty close mit and harvard and harvard and then you reality reality actually mean something from the role of the interviewer there's something I have to think a lot about whether interview hitler, you said exposing. I think hard to know what it is. I can a room, but I thought You know I've. Never measure felt his heart. You know what your fifties I can room.

But I imagine to some degree their charismatic figures. So exposing them in the interview setting is not an easy task. Interviewing is not an easy. My right job, it's not a good idea to evidence review will be an idiot I know exactly what you're saying, and I know why you look at me directly, as you said, appreciate the hurry. I let me ask by you, your friend your colleague? alan Dershowitz and We also ask about your review of its most recent book, but before then interesting em to ask what you think of him? As of here being is, as a lawyer, he's a quite an just in case, you represent a somewhat more controversial figures in his, including Jeffrey Epstein, including your first day mike tyson julian assange. James baker

Jeffrey I've seen and even donald trump, so Interesting figure what you think about that claus, bulow raising, but do you think about him as a human being, is a lawyer what he represents in terms, the values and ideals while he is a criminal defense lawyer and the job of a criminal defense lawyer, is to represent the accused criminals. he he is a life form Democrat It isn't represent trump, because you were greece with a politically What for hitler ably Europe? He already hilary? Yes, yes weeks as an, I actually believe it is it he's a liberal democrat. But is a criminal offence lower as well as the professor and them eyebrows. that is a very nasty people. In my career. I wouldn't go out for coffee with them, but they have.

has social rights to representation Very seriously desert you notice something that people don't understand about. Dershowitz He was asked by trying to represent them in the second impeachment as well. He turned him down. Why do you think he turned down so different? he represented job in the first impeachment. She representatives in the first and is it was successful, would troubles and peaches goddamn. It is down to represent our eyes, had a lifelong power. C of only representing somebody once never twice why because you never wanted to be house careful to the above you and So he really odd had this position. It only represents somebody once The mafia wants a lawyer who's, an in house counsel who present similar in all cases, so that's

reason than now and never published these play. That, I know, is the fact that billions from the day that we better, harvard law, school, latin sixty four. He was the first year professor, I was the first year student. We both had broken access when we hit it off. We we Close friends ever since that there's some kind of unethical line, of course, when you continuously representing a client, yet he thought it was not such an ethical woman. You have a right to represent mafia people, but he's the be house council he didn't wanna, be you have them ass conferred face in advance of what they were doing he was willing to represent somebody once no matter how often class far below the accused of killing his wife. These are pretty nasty people, but he didn't wanna, be house counsel to any of

so you wrote a review of Alan Dershowitz, his new book on donald trump, the title that book is get trump, the threat to civil liberties, due process and our constitution, rule of law? Can you summarize this book and your review of it yet of whether I co authored it with my research assistant, who's sitting right here, family, yes and and and I thought that the book was another example of the fact that everybody is entitled to a defence and Hours being involved with tromp was purely professional. It was not political, it was not philosophical and I thought that the fact that he was being gum criticized he was being shunned because of his connection.

What I found very interesting that this is a guy who represented such a corner with distasteful figures as klaus far bulow, as mike as a simpson. a sheldon siegel ever he was considered to be a skilful, were made his rapid. And then he represents to donald to my I was never killed anybody and, suddenly shunned. I thought the hypocrisy of it, the pool little preening was very distasteful to me and it was not only because he was my friend if he wasn't my friend that they have the same view.

holier than thou nonsense. I perceive it you'll, they wouldn't there were more of his villa now. Allen is a different, I'm so sensitive furthermore, I told you it's no problem, no problem at all but our this, considering how culture for his life has been somewhat something he submit sensitive arrive, after telling out don't let it get to you I can relate. I can. I can definitely relate taking on some controversial conversations to wear my heart on my sleeve. It hurts all that hurts yep, but maybe the pay makes you a better. Ass and a few nature, maybe that's the case for him. Nevertheless, the book has a mixer, a complicated and, I think, an interesting point. He opens the parrot. He opens a book with The doll tromp has announced his candidacy for you re election. As president the unrest

The efforts by his political opponents to get him to stop him from running any costs will only increase. These efforts may pose the most significant threat to civil liberties has mccarthyism. Is he write his absolutely right, because these they kept the press that, for example, the prosecution the of the world? prosecution that has been brought out with alvin brig in in the manhattan. I have looked at that and I don't believe that trump is committed. A crime and get bragg was pressured to bring that people in his office were threatening to quit. If he didn't date, wholly improper wholly unethical and is going to lose. The case has trump committed crimes, yes, most idiots hats crimes. If he's up, he has cheated on taxes, his whole career, as far as I can t help, he can easily be invited state and federal taxes,

but those that did not a sexy, and I think that he has become a target by ambitious politicians, ambitious prosecutors. He is, have some sympathy which he doesn't deserve and do a lot of it is, is you'll, pardon the phrase, political correctness, the better people are not supposed to be trampers, I have little experience about shrub, but I had to regional experiences more reason. Why was I was in the house of in summers the former president of harvard, whose driven out by political correctness, by the way he insulted women biologists.

I was in his house when he still president of harvard when the trump Hillary Clinton contest took place, And I was with elsa: we were invited to suffers house in brooklyn and them it looked like pillory was gonna win and the harvard faculty Members still rule celebrated the road, for you know what they are. Positions were going to be bubble bar and then the bare eleven thirty at night, all of a sudden, it was announced that, in terms of natural votes, trumpet just eat their victory. That hilary beat him in the popular vote, but he had one electoral college and of the media depression and

the meaning of acquired over the room, the womb dim, absolutely stolen cell. and they their roll love disappointed. Well, that was a memorable moment a moment. It told me that they were a little bit too overconfident today They were rub, savouring being part of a presidential administration. Ambition had been thwarted american The of the preening ambition. I think it blinds people, two realities, and the resulting arrogance from such ambition and arrogance. Yes, it's one of the reasons I didn't except Jim, born bergs offered to be part of the academic spirit. They represent professors, have friends who profess that represent, stood, save friends who suits and thereby have a great regard for universities,

in higher education, but I was not about the part of the culture. I thought that it was not good for me and not good for these institution either they can now a culture that can breed arrogance. Yes, a self importance be up and I, in a sense the election. Donald trump was a big a few to such correct which is why I think he way thinking he managed to work to pull it off. He jumped up as a little bit about. What do you think I was of the euro about how do you think but the mass surveillance programmes by the other say and also well, he by other organizations, CIA f b I and others do and broadly. What do you think about the importance of privacy for the americans

Ok, I believe that the f b I should be abolished because I believe that its culture was so corrupted by its first director g Edgar hoover j edgar hoover that it is impossible form the fbi to make. It's the agents, honest to force them to obey the constitution, the the first fourth and fifth amendments, especially and and it's a culture that cannot be changed. A hoover established the culture and no effort directive since has been able to change it. If you go on line, I did on Youtube video,

For the aseel you have massachusetts, it was when I was on the board. It was probably when I was president of the board. I was president the board for two years. Was on the board for twenty years and I did a video about advising people to never ever ever talk to a nephi when they come back europe. Can you briefly explain the intuition. Yes, why not to talk, and I believe we have a system When they come in an interview to should show up. Never one one has the question. The other one takes notes, the the no taking agent takes those and it goes back to the office and types up. A report called a form three o two, which is the official record of what was asked and answered. So what?

I have a clear interviewed by the fbi. I show up- and I always agree almost always with the interview, but I bring printed paper. Could. And I say, or I'm going to tape this and they say we'll we're by regulation: we're not allowed to do the interview of his date. The if the record is the trio to the, agent, is taking. Those has a well. I have a policy too. policies to never allow a client to be interviewed on this is recorded so and so forth? wait, but you have to end this meeting and they just get up and leave and

The EU has never seen a form through your two that I consider to be accurate. The ages were right now what they wish. You had said there rather than what you said: it is a wholly corrupt organization. There is not, any better since you hoover died and fundamentally, the corruption is in the culture that, is resisting the pollution or the united states, the wreck, the first and fourth and fifth and correct its knotted stuff financial corruption. It is, it is corruption of the mission and them I think you should be abolished and if we, The federal investigative agency to be a new name, a new culture, polly new members, new director and them it is impossible to work too

for the f b. I q elaborate on what exactly is broken about the at the the the famous saying from mars, stones cage kgb head. A barrier show me the man and I'll show you the crime rate. Is it that kind of assets. It's that cover process did decide who is guilty, and then they go about concocting a case against the person whoever they wanna get so the goal not to find the truth or The south south case and close it includes the reputations but to show that an innocent man is guilty is solving the case from their perspective, so to falsely convict or are false imprison. An innocent man is also solve indicate Well, it closes the case, they force the imprisoned man. There is, isn't closing cases so that the fbi, butter, broadly speaking, about the surveillance aspect,

is this: what are your views on the the the right that an american citizen has to privacy, wealth of wiretapping and electronic surveillance of very, very intrusive, and I think that the spoke of this, that these tools are used should be narrowed, for example, are used in a lot of drug cases. She's era drugs should be illegal. In any event, I certainly think that it's a terrible violation of privacy to you to use wiretapping in drug case. I could see it in cases of murder, possibly in case if serious extortion, but an the other has crimes, were they wiretap, especially drug cases,

I believe drugs should all be legalised anyway. I think it's the way, the price we pay as society. it's not worth it there's on the wikipedia page for nothing to hide your cited that your book that he gave me today, three felonies a day cited but nothing to hide argument. That's an argument that if you're a well behaved citizen, they have then to hide in there for your privacy can be violated well. The problem is it under the federal criminal code, a particularly the federal criminal code, and it is very easy to be charged with a crime. Now why, under the constitution, the federal government does not have plenary criminal jurisdiction. That's up to the state

How is it the thief? Feds indict in so many areas of american life? It's because the soup- when court has allowed the following absolutely insane situation to prevail. Anything can be made a federal crime if, in the course of the commission of the crime, the means of interstate communication or travel are used. That means that if you commit a crime, because what narrowly with

estate crime and you use the telephone, will you send the letter? It suddenly becomes federal? That means that the limitation that the founding fathers who wrote the constitution intended to keep the feds out of daily life and to give that jurisdiction to the states has been completely thwarted, because I can think of we a case where somebody doesn't use The telephone in the course of planning discussing something is arguably criminal, and so this limited authority, the federal government to bring argues in criminal cases? Is illusory, feds candidate, a ham sandwich

basically everybody's guilty and if five is, if the feds I bring you in. They can find a way and that allows them to terrorize people who were dissidents near what is broken. What works about the american criminal justice system? From your perspective from the jury, the jury system, the jury system. Yes, you, like the jury system. Every citizens representing twelve ordinary people have to agree unanimously in order to convey what do you think about the high court in the land, the supreme court, what works and what has broken by the supreme court as an institution. What are its strengths and weaknesses of the supreme court is is, is, unfortunately, fairly political and dumb The current supreme court is overwhelming precedents, which you.

it's really improper impress. It is, cannot should not be overruled so easily It's about to overrule the affirmative action now. I am opposed to affirmative action. Maybe a lawyer discussion, but still its precedent and itchy be given some respect. But the words who work in order to work in order to propagate a more conservative gender, the court is treating precedent as if it doesn't have any any role and that's a huge mistake. some of the congress Democrat excited looking to enlarge the court in order to basic with what franklin roosevelt was not able to do.

And that is a change. The court's philosophy but I feel is very short: sighted. This is a longer, but this long game. This is a republic we have here and the anyone who tries to, for example, enlarge the court from nine to twelve. In order to get more of liberals on the ct than some other administration will try to enlarge it from twelve to fifteen. To get more liberals on the court. He'd have a constant fiddling with the very important institution, so the law should have more lasting power than the bickering, the political backing of the day correct. Let me ask you world, one heck of a life and father.

what about, as you continue to do so with the harvard board of overseers foresaw. Thank you for that, but tab. We're all human while mortal do potter, your does do upon him. Immortality. Are you afraid of it? Let me say this: my father died at forty eight. He died because he smoked. He died at forty. Eight pc smoke, four packs of camels a day. He got a massive heart attack at forty three. He continued to smoke, despite this that he died at forty eight. So I did not expect to live this long. cause. I thought it was genetic, it turns out, it was cigarettes, so here I am I'm going to be eighty one on may tenth. I was born on may tenth thirty. Forty two was just mother's day, coincidentally, and I realize I'm not live forever. I also take pride in the fact that I

it demonstrated that a lawyer does not have to go with a law firm in order to mit managed to make it you can make your own railroad, buffs the word railroad ticket. I've done that I agree that I've had a leadership. Patients with the Princeton harvard law school, but I don't think have the necessarily god will lead to situations in order to really make it. You need to work hard. but you shouldn't put yourself in a place where you can feel comfortable what's the word empowered, like I refused to take two words invitation It's rotation physician at harvard law, school I'll. Tell you once one other the story

The streets is, I was originally premiss freshman set for years in prison. I was an improvement programme. Why? Because my parents wanted me to marry the daughter of a fair. We physician at the idea, was, I was very miracles, Well, I was going to go into medical practice with him in hackensack new jersey, we had moved from brooklyn the time lord story, where we had to move from brooklyn had to do with my father's. having a problem with the fairies union having his like thread. And though we move to meet with the jersey, does he got a job and for shop and besides new jersey, a family physician. They had three daughters, the oldest performers, my age. She went Hackensack high school,

The book derives school. They both in both north burden, carry. And the idea was that. she and I will marry? I was become observer. Medical school I was going to take become a partner of her father in his medical practice and hackensack. when he retired. I was going to her the practice. This this scenario could happen. By countless weather and my mother. it myself. We hear of that principle. I want a fellowship, suspend this summer. who had suffered junior in paris. I was fluent by them. Taken exhilarated french course refreshments a four year, and then I went to paris use my first time out of the country at them.

I spent the entire some working supporting myself. To pay the affair, and I why own money, room boy. The thought about my life and decided number one? I didn't wanna be a physician and whether be allure number two Well, I didn't want to marry caroline, and I came back. I change for pre med, pre law. I broke up with Carolyn, who was, by that time, a school at douglas right down the road from Princeton she had me, oh right, followed her, and my life suddenly took a wholly different terms so that some of the parish, paris, hell.

outsize effect of my life every year. The brow of the other shows casablanca, we're bogart has this great live, he says well We have pears and I think to myself I always said: elsie was This house has a big every valentine's day. he's with such important movie to me because a paris was transformative in my life. We went to paris every year during my vacation. Beware: the paris this wherever she took some great pictures advisedly, is this this, I hope that the house adopt. So I always and even after else's death, I think Casablanca twice now she she died and the twenty twenty Adam,

was always think will always have pairs, will always have paris well hurry, like I said, I hope If very successful in year, in IRAN, for harvard board of overseers. I think, will you stand for. in the realm of freedom of speech, as though I think the thing it makes these universities greatest. It oceans in american culture and I'll! Do everything I can to help is exceeded. I am very grateful for the work you have done and I am grateful to you talk to me today. This is amazing. Thank you for the sitting. This conversation with harvey silver plate, the supporters by gas. We check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with the words from Harry s: truman once government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of the opposition,

It is only one way to go. That is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where We live in fear. Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time. The. Easy.