The following is a conversation David Pachmann, a left wing, progressive political commentator and host of David pachmann show, I hope, to continue to have many conversation on politics with prominent insightful and sometimes controversial figures across the nickel spectrum David in, I had been players speak for a long time and I am sure, will speak many more times. This conversation is challenging eye opening and fun, and now a quick you circumvention of sponsor check them out in a description is the best way to support the spike asked who got eight sleep for naps, Szabo, five for e commerce and express european for security and privacy on the internet, choose wisely. My friends also, if you want to work with our team, were amazing team were always hiring gotta lex treatment that counts, lash, hiring. And now onto the full air raids, never

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Labels is an interesting distinction between them. Yet there's two sets of distinctions, one as if you just want to say, let's define each of these as political terms. There all different terms, you can be a progressive, ideologically, but not be a member of the democratic party. Many say the demo Product party isn't even really very progressive, so these are certainly terms that we could define in order to have a conversation about the next thing kind of as a precursor to a conversation. Sometimes the terms are used in order to tag someone with a certain ideology. That's not really linked to policy or any particular political quest. But they can be used positively or negatively. To just kind of say here is the image of this individual that

have, in my mind, so like marxist, is right now very popularly being used by some on the right to attack Democrats there's very few actual marxist, certainly not in positions of power. the united states, but even among the general population, so I think important to distinguish our redefining these terms, because we want to compare and contrast ass the idea that a particular group might bring through discussion or we using them as insults or to stifle conversation, their terms that can be used to start conversation or tat, Stop it and the use of those terms is evolving rapidly month by month. So the term left us, I think, is a rotten, popular term now to use in the negative context to describe what and outraged left wing commentator. I think what you're kind of grasping onto

Is that there's probably some set of ideas that would apply to most of those who consider themselves to be on the left? The discussion of how that term is mostly being used is not about policy ideas. Your accurately kind of identifying that and it does seem like progressive- is no longer being used as a smear and leftist is being used as a smear more at this point, but sometimes some of these terms are useful. Like can we try to pick the terms they're useful, like liberal and progressive and democrat liberal and progressive, is an interesting definable distinction between liberal and progressive, that's of maybe one of the most interesting ones. Ten years ago, liberal often meant progress. What now we mean by progressive more recently, the progressive social?

list leaning part of the political spectrum has started to use liberal, to mean Joe Biden to mean someone who is not really left enough. So liberals, very interesting because I remember talking with my audience years, maybe eight years ago, or something like that were identified. I'm going to now use the term progressive more commonly to describe my own beliefs, because liberal has now been made a smear, its being shifted into something else, and it also means more, like a centre left politics. So it's changed in some sense by by necessity, by force and also because the the spot from has shifted to some degree, so the term liberal has evolved. Now, liberal, meaning so kind of embodiment of the mainstream democratic party. Almost

to some degree, sometimes I'm called I'm written off by within my space. There are all sorts of shades of gray, which I am sure we can talk about about where I am versus should be, could be, or am wrongly placed, and sometimes an attack on me is he's just the lib meaning I'm not left enough, I'm not progressive socialist and wherever else you want to go so yet the the problem with a lot of these terms and their views very casually by people who call into my show is that unless we actually define them each time they very often, very different things, to different people and often come with an agenda attached to them, and so I find that they often stifle meaningful conversation rather than encourage it. A due sense that there's a drifting of what is the threshold to be a progressive or is? Is there it should be used, progresses synonymously with the

democratic socialist. I think we should not use it synonymously with democratic socialist, and this is where there is another linguistic confusion and a political confusion. So will first talk about the linguistic one, social democracy, versus democratic socialism. Very similar words in a different order. Ok ma by the way I operate is democratic. Socialism is actually a form of shall isn't where one would seek to so eliza ownership of the means of production as an example. Social democracy is a very highly regulated form of capitalism, the likes of which we would see in northern europe, denmark, etc. These are very different things. I associate progressive ism in twenty twenty three with social democracy and would consider dammit attic socialism a form of actual socialism that is different. It is, it will no longer talking about a capitalist organization of society, such

position for want of the others, a fundamental shift in house in how society operates and absolutely. And when you talk about social democracy, you're talking about socializing a couple more things, then weak socialize. In most modern capitalist countries, I had this conversation with patrick that David recently. Social democracy is ok with socialized the military already in the united states, we ve socialized some health care in the sense of like the viewer and medicaid, etc. We're talking about socializing a couple more things still in a capitalist, cunt, democratic socialism would be something beyond that, and and as someone who is not a democratic socialist myself, I'm I'm, maybe not the best advocate for explaining exactly how that system would function, but it would have some version of socializing ownership of the means of production

businesses etc. So you mentioned, you appeared on the p b d podcast with Patrick Ben David, and the debate was pretty intense. I was I I I should say I personally enjoyed it. I thought I actually you did well and I thought Patrick do well and it was a good conversation, a little bit of tension, yeah and I I thought the patrick actually. So I disagree with the internet that Patrick just took on a kind of devil's advocate like he was. He was purposely being stubborn to bring out the best in you, but they internet thought that he'd being stubborn, not being open to you, Yes, I thought the tension between ideas and I think a lot of the attention had to do probably with donald trump and trump supporters. That certainly could be the case, and people wrote to me asked people wrote to me. The whole gamut of everything you can imagine from this was your best thing you ve ever done in public to you got humiliated, and your mother should have aborted you.

okay. So every and everything in between so take your pick, but the most interesting feedback I got was from people who asked me after was an incredibly tense and awkward and because it seemed so combative and I think for I'm so used to those types of tensions in the discussions that I have that it's very comfortable to me. It's not like afterwards, it's it's there's a grudge or it's or whatever the case may be, I'm very comfortable. Just I. I disagree with people and that's it so I did not find anything that happened inappropriate. I disagreed with a lot of the things he said. Certainly see also spoke on canals and I think about the idea of what is a woman do. Can you speak broadly about your conversations with people? You disagree with, or you know some

well the cases it feels like it's gone wrong. The conversations have got IRAN yeah yeah. I mean, I think, there's a couple of different things and I'm the first to tell you that, depending on who I'm talking to I go in with a different attitude about how quote seriously, I'm taking it in this. So, whether I think it's going to be a deep policy discussion, verses worth whether it's going to be more of us organs for an audience. That is expecting a certain thing and I think there is different types of ship when I was interviewed by this guy jesse, we petersen in LOS angeles, it's very different, for example, than when I'm talking to Patrick that David just to give to two examples. I think The reason I stop doing that michael knolls show was the number of threats I would get after the fact

that's really the ray. I was glad to engage with him to the extent that the interviews were interesting and you know we could organise a reasonably efficiently, but the reason I stepped away was sort of the aftermath, but I did find him to be someone who was abundantly clear about his view and where he comes from, and while I could not possibly disagree what more with him in terms of politics in culture and our backgrounds, everything is just so so different. I found it easy to engage in the conversation just because of how up front and clear he was about what is beliefs were by the number threats he ash yeah. I was just too much and with some eater. I don't know if how much you saw about this recent twitter dust up. I was involved in that peaked with Donald trump jr tweeting about me and then that then declining from there- let's, let's talk through, I didn't see it. I have to understand, like a waste that is shakespeare, have to study your twitter have to understand somewhat how much of his sarkar mostly sarcasm with I'm in here

the thing- and I know that there are people who will say David you're, dealing with such serious issues. It's really not ok, not to take everything you do completely seriously, but my view is: it so incredible that I've between chant send timing, and so different things fallen into a position where this is what I do professionally and it's a career and its financially sustainable. In all these different thing. I dont want to end up taking myself to seriously because I recognise the time and lock and all of these other things- and this could have got a completely different way. So my approach to a lot of this is: let's not take ourselves seriously and, in particular on twitter, a platform that you know that me too, which it should be taken very seriously. Mate maybe has changed over time, I'm always sort of thinking a little bit tongue in cheek on twitter, though it happened with a donald trump junior seau or the

lack of it. Yet that to make give you a one minute arc, and then we can pick whichever parts we want after a mass shooting. Now you might say, there's two or three a day. You are correct after the nashville mass shooting at a christian school, I tweeted snarly tongue in cheek to point that thoughts and prayers not only aren't particularly useful after a shooting. They also to prevent shootings that there is some confusion about how there would be a shooting at a christian school, given that it is a poet place, were prayers taking place. I think I ve no jokingly said something like: were they not paying enough were correctly in my deep journalists, integrity you have it. I have your european businesses. This is the only display of journalistic.

Great? I was showed today, okay and I have a couple of responses beautiful and you deleted the tweet since then, which I regret oh interest, and we can talk about them. I would love to because it's such a yeah interesting decision, because when you tweet something in one of the things I've also learned. Is you don't often understand how it's going to be read is going to be analyzed like I mentioned shakespeare like there's certain the use of certain words that you regret, saying in a certain kind of way may be just because it wasn't, eloquence as an ass, powerful dinner. She convey the thing or is the distraction to the main messages that kind of stuff. Ok, the actual tweet is very surprising that there would be imagined. get a christian school, given that lack of prayer is often blamed for these horrible events is a possible. They weren't praying enough or correctly this by being a christian school and down.

A lot of people quote re that which I'm assuming was the criticism, so call right I used to consider you a reasonable progressive, but you clearly devolved into partisan graham an atheist, it cannot begin fathom using the murder of children and adults at a christian school as an opportunity dunk on the concept of prayer and yours, and on dumping on the people who sent thoughts and prayers and do nothing else and the shootings continue. Sure there's a lot of other attracts, there's a few other hundred thousand better access so that you want the ark leader to the lady Russell tibet isn't going to display. Didn't do you know what time of day I tweeted the original one I feel like it was in the afternoon and evening

on a monday three forty two p m on twenty seven march: twenty seven, which was a monday, ok and was a basically I tweet that and then I finished the day and I tweet. Then you gone with you. I might have looked once it twitter and it had two thousand likes and a few people saying at this might have missed the mark. But it's not like it's one of my twenty thousand tweets at our now I wake up the next morning. My baby daughter did not sleep till seven, thirty, the. Where would like so she's up at six a m and I get up and I'm just their starting to make breakfast. and I glanced at my phone and I'm starting to see, it has been verified, meant a different thing. That means now I'm seeing all these verified accounts that are vote quote: tweeting, ed and demanding a retraction in whatever, and I got ok. This looks like it's getting looks like it's getting some attention. I then continue

out my day around noon. I hear from my dad that he got a hundred messages from you should have a boarded your son too, we're going to find all of you to whatever else might add as no idea what's going on he's like I don't know what this is, but I have one hundred dems to everything else. You can imagine, and I start to get emails about. You know we. You know you're jewish faith this and that and the other thing, and so at that point to me I thought this is just going to get worse and worse and and so I deleted the tweet, and I really regret doing that because over the forty eight hours that followed yes, the attacks escalated can it went through, can do so and and then at fox news, dot, com, news, max kind of peeking with with donald trump junior, and it was

horrible- I mean thousands and thousands of the ok, but once I told my audience about what happened, I got thousands of messages from people saying David, only someone who d didn't know you and is determined to interpret this in the worst possible faith, would think you're blaming kids who died forgetting shot. Of course, you weren't doing that. I wish you hadn't delete did it so that it would still be up, and you would now see the tide kind of turning on it. This was not a fun three days regardless, but I do regret having deleted it because it was a patent. I wanted to do the quickest thing. I thought I could to get people to stop trying to find family members and send them threats and saw around noon. That's what I did and the truth is the threats didn't stop anyway, because everybody screen shouted at band. I do wish. I had left it up in

is there some degree may be stepping outside yourself. The you regret tweeting, that in that it feeds the mockery engine that that fuels twitter. So, like does that tweet really represent what you believe. It absolutely represents the disgust with a politics that includes saying we can't hush guns we just we can't but were willing to point to mental health or say we need more prayer in schools or wherever one thousand percent it represents. That view. Is it the type of snark and sarcasm that I would use if given an hour, to discuss the topic rather than whatever the number of characters is now on twitter? No definitely not, and so I am- mary cognisant of the fact that it was unnecessarily provocative how it was written.

I think a similar question to bash appear Do you worry that the style of presentation can turn you from being deeply thoughtful objective political thinker? to somebody who is just a partisan, hack or partisan, and what's a good word talking head, do you mean with regard to twitter or the format of my show in general, it was twitter for now, let's start with twitter for now, and can you silo your style of communication twitter from being a virus? That affects your mind right. I don't have deep thoughts about the twitter component beyond, I think, across all sorts of disciplines. This is not the best way to most effectively solve problems and figure out solutions to complex issues that are more twitter net

right now I'm talking about what is that being said, I think all of us to some degree have to adapt. Our content to the platform that were using in the same that what I post to youtube is different than what I posted tick tock. What I post to twitter is also different. Do I think twitter has been an unmitigated good for society now and have I chosen to stay. into twitter as one of the ways in which I get my message out with the good and the bad yes, and I think that there is a deep conversation to be had there. I think zooming out a little bit in terms I do, and I was hoping this would come up, because I think it's really interesting. I will then get emails from people who say two things. I will get the you would have such a bigger audience if you did ex type emails,

and usually they are placed her sensationalism, salacious and then titillating content, more pop culture, stuff, etc. On the other hand, it focuses hey, listen, what you're doing really isn't as serious as it could be, and it seems like you could do something more serious You should consider doing deep dives, you know once it was, do a deep dive into calvin coolidge and I was like nobody will watch that so there it's not by act isn't it that my show is the way it is right in an hour, I'm thinking of all the platforms I'm on and I'm saying. Okay, I want to do a relatively deep dive on the phone well budget, and I want to talk about some of the political tomfoolery we're going on within the post office and Emily. hu a segment about the wacky rally where, from said crazy thing, things and made up three words and setting endorsed a candidate was named right. I'm crafting that in total.

to find a balance between let's build this audience as much as I and in order to have a bigger based to get my message out there and income food, the more serious stuff, with the hope that there is a little bit of something for everyone and am finding a balance between those two sizes spectrum. It it's a deliberate thing and I am aware that if I were producing my show fifty years ago, the bounce would probably be different and it would probably change again if we didn't, if the show was audio only rather than having all these video platforms. It would also be different, but it's a decision. That's proactively made to try to get the best and most out of the hour, that I'm creating every day where it just feels like there's an entire machine fed by twitter and journalism that wants to divide people.

And the drama of that division highlighting the the the partisan division, the drama of their division feels like it's attention with objective, clear thinking sometimes, and so that's the I worry that there's a drug to it, there's too much fun to mock ridiculous people on the other side. I think you're right about that and the fact that that is true to me supports I've talked with my audience about. You know like the old food pyramid, which I was like wrong. But let's imagine that there is a pyramid that that made sense. The bottom bread, I think like hold rain Speaking, I don't remember it's. It's been a while how's the of junk food is at the very time I am. We open with my audience the vat. Majority of what I do is the top of that pyramid, and I tell people very openly

I dont consume a lot of the type of content I produce and I think it's really important to as a base be doing critical thinking epistemological. How do we believe the things we believe basics about the world after that reading? History, economics, philosophy, etc. After that now we're getting into current events, I would mostly be looking at consuming. Primary source reporting things like associated press whatever I know, everybody will have a different list of what counts there after that is, when I say indulge in some of the commentary type stuff that I do if you find that I'm thoughtful enough to make it into that, but I'm very open and really

when I try to do my show often is in being that at the top of the pyramid, tell people there's all this other stuff that should be forming you're foundation that I hope your consuming. In addition to just watching me and I'm very open with my audience about the what about, The shape of the dynamics of the characteristics of your audience is there's some degree to which you refer marking, maybe republicans than theirs. there's a lean to that audience and then you become captured by the audience do way about audio capture. I worry about it, I'm relatively comfortable that it's not shape. The programme to a great degree. In the sense that at this point I have a pretty good sense of the. things I can say that will upset what I might call my core audience. You know one of the interesting things to just to briefly go back to the twitter thing was those people who were furious with me on twitter.

And they contacted my advertisers and some advertisers dropped me and on and on and on. None of them are actually in my audience, none of them are regular consumers of my audience. They were kind of weapon eyes against me by people who said hey. Look at this. The people who follow candice owens on twitter other than for their kind of shock value, they're, not In my audience and with my core audience, I know there are things I can talk about, that will generate displeasure, I guess you could say with my audience sometimes when I touch the israeli palestinian conflict that will happen sometimes on vaccines. There's a portion of my audience that is more generally skeptical of vaccines, sometimes on some foreign policy issues, or you know I am not a b. The fan of Marianne williamson nor Bobby Kennedy, juniors and a challenges to Joe Biden, not because I love Joe Biden, but because I don't consider them to be the most serious challenges. I know there's people in my audience who don't like that they get

They get mad at me about that, and I'm totally okay with that and that tension with with my core audience. So in that sense, I don't feel though, I had that audience capture take place, but I know it can happen and I'm very open to two being told ways in which it may be happening without me noticing. So I've made a call for questions on read it for this conversation,

there's a lot of good questions that I'll probably bring up, but one of them was about a man williamson and asking why David thinks she is a garbage candidate now which of course, I've never said. But perhaps you have more eloquently criticized so, let's, let's, let's go there jerk to the twenty twenty four election, okay, so Biden, Joe Biden, officially announced he's running again. Donald trump officially announced that he's running again in, if that's the matchup, who do you think wins if the elections held today, I think Biden. Why well. First of all, I believe he won last time and if start with the results from twenty twenty, and I think to myself what has happened since then that would push or pull voters one way or the other. I have a hard time may a case that trump isn't.

better position today than it was in november of twenty twenty. So that's, Am I starting point, which is it's a rematch of an election with a known outcome? What has changed and I can't make a case for circumstances having changed in trump's favor to give a couple of state level examples. Florida seems to be kind of moving more to the republican side since twenty twenty, but from one that state already in twenty twenty. So it wouldn't really change the outcome arizona was close. I think arizona has moved to the left since two thousand and twenty, so I don't see trump taking that one wisconsin. I think the same sort of thing applies so being very like practical. That would be kind of the start of my reasoning. Do you think Joe Biden is a better candidate now than he was in twenty? I think he's a worse candidate. This is going to.

sound ages, but I think he's a worse candidate in that he's even older, and their already seems to be an appetite for younger candidates, particularly on the democratic voting side, Oh he's going to be four years older and in a sense that could be a liability. How for he also is going to have for years of accomplishments. Now you might not like the things he has done, in which case that would hurt him, but he has started to accumulate not insignificant number of accomplishments, some of the big things that are known, inflation reduction act and covered stimulus, but also less well known things like a bunch of little tweaks to healthcare, bunch of little tweaks to student lending. There's been a lot of little things and. At the macro level, idle

actually think Joe Biden has that much to do with this. The same way, I didn't credit or attack trump for a lot of the macro economic stuff, but inflation has started to come down significantly the stock markets, quite steady it these sorts of things, I think, looking historically, it's a pretty ok environment for Joe Biden, with the exception that he was already the oldest president to be inaugurated in when you twenty one and he would beat his own record in january of twenty twenty five, and I just don't how voters are going to see that so in terms of just a public human being of how would you compare trump and Biden? So if I were to give criticism towards trump, he would be that his chaotic may be to the point of being disrespectful, to a lot of different groups to a lot of different ideas to our different nations and leaders of that kind of stuff. And then the criticism towards Biden would be that he maybe perhaps because of age or any other car cognitive capability,

it is not really there mentally. As you know, in the way that perhaps you could say that Barack Obama was there. just mentally, being able to handle all kinds of aspects of being a public representative a nation to the world and to the people of that nation? So which share in the competition of personality flaws, which you think is more powerful. You ve laid out fair and, I believe, accurate assessments of elements of both of those. men, you haven't waiting on to what degree you value each of those assessments, which is where I think that the kind of meat of this question really is I don't see- and I know that binds gonna get us- the world war, three world war, three that doesn't seem too, happening. I dont see the Biden deficits you listed, which I agree with you:

I dont see them as dangerous or threatening to the standing of the united states. in this kind of environment with our western Israel, western allies and geopolitics, etc in the way that the sort of unhinged personality of trump combined with his lack of knowledge about most issues is a threat. So for me, if those two are the candidates, Biden would be my choice now either people I would rather see on the democratic side. Yes If I knew the president would be a republican. Can I think, of better options than trump? Absolutely you know. I think it's it's so funny when in two thousand and twelve it was obama, vs romney, the difference seemed so significant between them Thinking back. I'm sure I would disagree with mitt romney about tax rates and his views on algae.

Meteor or I'm sure I know are different than mine, but it seems without looking at him with rose coloured glass, so comparatively benign, given the four years of tat. so that's kind of where I come down even now, Mccain power, the differences in quite drastic yeah mccain, was ended. thing because pale in, as is running, mate, opened the door to the sort of cartoonish stuff that we started to see on the republican side. Pailin, tromp marjorie taylor, green it so going in that direction, which has made the party a bit of a joke. Aside from what you believe, the tax rate would be right, you can that say, taxes are too high, but jewish space lasers come on. You know so up, but, but I I agree with you on Mccain, also so go back to the political terms. We talked about what wherein the spectrum do you place yourself today, which of the label? Do you think, captures your political views, progressive social democrat and when

which again is a capitalist. I own, my own business. I pay the taxes, I'm legally required to pay and not a penny more and eat all all those things. That's where I place myself. Would you please yourself to the left of Joe Biden? Yes, yes, where does the lc fit into that. good question. What do you think about elsie? as a candidate. Do you think she eventually runs? I think that if she doesn't run into some kind of scandal- and I dont mean scandal in the sense of some personal impropriety that we know what I mean. Some kind of major political problem It seems that she has the staying power to be an american elected politics for a long time whether she would even want to be president verses may be going to the senator being govern

whatever the case may be. I have no idea what her ambitions are in that sense, but certainly like policy aside, she has this combination of charisma, like ability to some but also something about her personality that angers, the people who don't like her in a way that only fuels her sort of a presence which I think applies to trump as well, and that I do think that she has the potential to be to have significant staying power in american politics. President, I dunno Janine as the future of of political elections and politics in general is people who are able to skillfully piss off the other side like you, see, interrupted, I think it's an aspect of it. I think it's also understanding how to communicate policy ideas from it. I have things I can praise trump about. If we want to get to that I at some point you you, let me know when that is, but I do think that there are some things. Trump is very good, and this is why it's very hard for me to

we have that rhonda santas has what it takes to actually fight. from a national primary and one of those things is trump has even though he often says very strange things that if you transcribed them, you go that's what languages that that does make any sense whatsoever in the moment. The way he relates to adversaries, onstage, etc, is very good in that He is very much aware of how it is going to be seen by the audience and so It's. Why a lot of times, it's more about, doesn't matter that a word salad came out of his mouth, how he immediately responded and related to the person who very good. So I think knowing how to be good when clips are shared. All the time, often out of context is extraordinarily important. knowing how do you social media, which every election cycle. That means something different but

you're standing? How do you social media very important? Those things are absolutely so important and whether you able to do a deep dive on the deficit certainly useful, but I would say it's a bad thing: it's becoming less important in terms of figuring out who we want to represent us, suggest lingering on the l c, and that may be less throw in bernie sanders on that yeah. So where do you place yourself in we do, though, lay out of the land Bernie sanders, Elsie Joe Biden and do bagman my instinct, and the third I'm going to answer it. The thing that makes this tough is Bernie says: I'm he's a democratic socialism He ran as a social democrat. He didn't run on anything that was really socialism right, so I'm going by their public

facing platforms. I've been listening to them for many many years and all of the way back to the thom hartmann show, and I think, using the terms as You ve been using them yet he has, I don't think been democratic socialist I haven't heard him speak about socialism? I think I've heard him speak about social programmes and the value of social programmes. Yeah throughout the history as the united states in there and how they ve been beneficial maya. Standing is very similar years, although there may be stuff from the seventies where he really was I believe I was one of those shed in the seventies yeah, yet you and I even who weren't around or doing stuff like that, I feel like we did yeah. My sense would be you know by. is like centre left and then I'm to the left of that, but maybe just inside of you're a yo see in Bernie are very, very similar to burn. I mean I identify with a lot of burmese ideas, may be there

implementation, I'm more flexible on I'll. Give you one example medicare for all. One way of trying to get health care to everybody which, he's very big on. Is you take the current medicare program? You just eliminate the age limit make it available to everybody pay for through taxation. Interesting, however, open to other models if they get everybody healthcare that is good quality and affordable, singapore has an interesting model. Germany has an interesting model I I am more agnostic about how we do it, then just saying, let's expand, medicare. Whether that puts me to the right of of honey. I don't I don't know, but I'm not exactly right there on. It has to be more careful yeah is more of this more just flexibility versus dogmatism, so I don't have her pussy to the left to the right. I don't either. What do you think about the

who could turn manipulation or the corruption in the aegean sea that perhaps tipped the scales against Bernie in the election Do you think there was nobody? Sixteen or twenty twenty both, I would say, indifferent d d dynamics. There were with Hillary Clinton. I, the pressure from Hillary Clinton is again did inside the out. What would they be? What was there? why didn't bernie? When my guess is one one would ask? Ok, I think there's a couple things here. First, the Dnc, I'm not a democratic, just bureau, audience may not know I'm just of independent. I mostly vote for candidates that end up being democrats in local elections. Often there's no party designation, so ok, I'm obviously on the left them not denying that, but the democratic parties as an institution has never really been interesting to me. You're still a rebel that resist

belonging to institute exactly right, exactly right and whether it matters I I don't know. The Dnc and currency really are organizations that, to some degree exist to justify their own exists, since because, if they were no longer necessary, they would go away, and so they have to assert their value and their importance. They do this the number of different ways, organizing the way that the domini is chosen, the can of working with states on everything from redistricting to whatever else the case may be, setting the order of primaries and having some involvement in how that's all going to happen and also coordinating behind the scenes. Ah, I guess they would describe it as may. Ensure our candidates don't get in each other's ways. We might see it and say: they're picking the the winner

there's nothing illegal about them being involved in picking the winter, but we might say it's not in people's interests. I think the twenty twenty four Mary was really interesting. Bernie supporter myself. I started telling my audience after a couple pray. Areas and even before, based on polling, indifferent things. I see a real. uphill battle here for Bernie and it's really important people in my audience are not the answer. Gee. You know union worker in Michigan who is mostly working raising a family and then goes to vote on primary day and goes to vote on election day. If you see a lot of time on read it and twitter you're going to have an inflated sense of burmese popularity within the democratic party. That was my sense and to some degree, We saw that in certain states, I don't have the exact or primary order and results in front of me or in my head, but the big turning point with south carolina south carolina

That was when Joe Biden. Why in one handily understood to be because of the larger african american population in south reiner and right around that exact same time. I actually dont remember now whether it was the day after the day before some of smaller democratic handed it smaller in terms of support, got out and said, I'm endorsing Joe Biden and to some degree, of course it, all organised and time to help Joe Biden. There is no doubt about that. This is what the Dnc does it's hard for me to be mad at the Dnc, because this is sort of like if, if we believed they were there to be unbiased arbiters and to stay as much on the side as possible, it would make sense to be furious that they ve gone against their stated neeoka kind of mandate, but we know that the Dnc

negotiates and is working behind the scenes and has a favorite that favorite was hilary and twenty sixteen twenty twenty. So I share the frustration about the power that the Dnc has, but people who were saying they did something illegal or whatever else. The case may be that that that doesn't seem to be the case, but this is part of. Why am? I would love there not to be this duopoly of republicans and democrats and there's probably for major changes that have to happen in order to make that a reality. But I share the frustration of folks, while recognising that read, it was not accurately representing bernie level of popularity. Still. I wish that the bias wasn't hours thier. What could be negatively turn the deep state towards the bureaucracy towards the momentum of the past which I think Joe Biden kind of represents versus new ideas. We just They say that Bernie Sanders somehow represents new ideas. Crises.

saw an older gentlemen. Will it's a frame? It's a lot of framing and the other aspect that is on paper. Joe Biden platform was arguably the most progressive of any democratic candidate who won the nomination. Now, of course, there were but who challenge denominations? Who were to Joe Biden left a lot of this is perspective and it that's how you end up saying the guy was a couple. years, older than Biden is actually the guy with the fresh perspective, which is interesting because I disagree with you yeah and he also to say the perspective doesn't always align with the policies you write and you know the actual policies of Joe Biden are different than that may be the perception of japan or what he ran on. I mean just two examples: I would give our during his campaign. He played up a little bit his interest in doing student loans. This and something on cannabis I never bought. It

I told my audience. I think he sang the stuff, because this is the way the tightest, I know that the wind is blowing and is being advised to say the stuff. I don't think in a do very much on either of these things. He did actually do some student loans stuff, but that would be two examples. I think Ok, let's go to the of the you alluded to, which is the pros and cons of a particular candidate. Well, what do you as a critic of trump? What do you are the pros? The strengths of tromp I would you are as big as weaknesses the strengths of trump see. I can frame, though, in a way that is both accurate and and accurately assessed as my feeling about and can be taken out of context, more mass masterfully through the clipping pross. Yes, trumps, strengths are mostly superficial and in terms of present

Haitian trump was able to. I call it a rift. Some on the right say he's just so good at relating to different types of people. Trump as a rich guy from new york city was able to convince people that he spent most of his life trying to be kept isolated from that. He had their best interests in mind that he knew why they weren't doing well in the twenty sixteen economy and that he had solutions that he was going to bring forward. The truth. Is he never really like those people and as soon as they weren't you it to him for a brief period of time. He that that love affair with his followers stopped in the now. It's back that he needs them again. he didn't really understand the causes of the problems that those folks were experiencing

and his solutions were laughable right, like Jared was going to solve the it was really palestinian conflict in year, one he was going to replace obamacare and twenty seventy. He had the things that were never going anywhere anywhere, but what he did really well was heap put a united front of I know what is ailing you. I know how to fix it, and I know how to fix it. I guess because he's a business man and he's been above the fray of politics for some long, knowing how to use political donations to his advantage called that smart etc. I think that's his greatest strength. What is, that does the Jared plan for Israel, palestine and the plan for health care to improve, to improve obamacare wide. What he said at last, Well only someone, I would include the north korea plan as well, which I'm gonna talk about,

only someone who doesn't know anything about the size and scope of these issues could so arrogantly say that they could solve them in that way and on that time frame I am all for optimism and and bringing a new face to thing absolutely will without a doubt, but in out a wall with mexico that mexico will pay for at the end of my first term. I know there are people who believed it, because they would call into my show and say I am voting for trump because of it, but it's hard to believe that anybody serious would fall for that unless you were deliberately wanting to disbelieve whatever what was being fed, you or you just hadn't ever thought Are these issues before the healthcare plan you know in twenty seventeen they proposed one would have led to twenty four the million or so people ending up without healthcare didn't go anywhere because it was so terrible and then, in august of two thousand and twenty trump said in in two

eggs. I'm gonna finally have my healthcare proposal, its twenty twenty three. We still never got it in a with all of these things when you think them through. It was just sort of arrogance, and I at the perspective of. I want optimism and I liked about optimism. It worked. I mean fair alot of people side and liked it as someone who followed a lot of those those issues closely. They seemed, of course, like impossible. Promises with a double edged. Sword says a push back a little bit. If you look at the things I have a labour more knowledge about the space of artificial intelligence. There is our common called deep minors can be called open. I that were left out for a long time when they were talking about that they're going to solve intelligence. And now they ve made especially deep mind an hour most recently albany. I would you pity then made progress that most there

Immunity would not have imagined that be able to make everything from our goal. Beating the wheelchair we'll go champion, just all the different steps and progress they can get into were surprised everybody and they are legitimately Fearlessly pursuing the task of solving intelligence, the other aspect He gets a lot of criticism now, but another it was elon musk in, I can say a lot of things like spacex, so commercial spaceflight. He was laughed at for a long time that that's possible the same thing with autopilot and tesla autonomous vehicles. His approach was harshly criticized by all the experts, and I still criticized to this day deeply criticized and I, as a person.

I believe, objectively, can look at the progress of autopilot as us in the autonomous vehicles system has been incredibly surprising. The reason I mention that is sometimes it feels like need the guy or the girl, whose makes those preposterous ambitious statements like we're going to solve healthcare this year. like, and then there's experts like yourself, there's looking thinking. Have you read anything about the history of the israel? Palestine is good as an example that do you know, there's a history there, the head. You realize how complicated how many people have true

I believe you have failed how many millions of people hate each other in this in this little place in this in this land that sometimes the expertise can really way down, so that served to push back. Sometimes you have to have the almost be naive and stupid, and just rush in with an optimism denied to actually make some progress. I agree with you one hundred percent. I think it's interesting that all of the examples you gave of of successes are from the technology space not bought the whip, not from politics which damning listen. The I would love to be able to make headway on some of these issues more quickly, without a doubt,

I do think at some point, though, when it comes down to voting in saying one of these people is going to be a sensible in charge for four years through all of the departments and secretaries and choices that they make. We do want to apply some level of realism with the with the understanding that your examples are from the tax base and their good examples there is. There is no question about it. One that thing allowed to this. I recently read bradley hopes new book about north yeah I'm, and it's really about an activist who doesn't even really matter, but that, in the background of the book it's written much of what is written about happens during the trump era and when trump did the first and then the second. I guess you call them summits with Kim jong own, and it actually did seem like too some degree trumps we're gonna hit handle this like. I do a business deal approach to Kim Jong, one in some sense, it actually was logical,

cause of Kim Jong and the way that it was so ego driven and they both as a sort of authoritarian strongman types to different degrees, wanted that There was actually a colonel where I actually thought, as I read it, trumps national idea wasn't crazy. The problem was, he knew nothing about the backstory of the relationship. He fell for all sorts of lies from Kim jong on and he made offers that didn't make any sense to make. It fell apart. Fine, but that's an example where I, Tat trumps personality was not actually at its base. The the problem when it came to north korea, with those other things of this nature could gone. Some people argue goes in the strengths and prose allow trump for china, for example, tariffs on china. Can you make the case that there are some positive outcomes of the way thou try? acted with china to really tough and I'll, give you a couple of years and will also cause I'll. Give you a good it's tough to make. So the china thing is really is so just dumb

very recently to windward recording this tromp was on- fox news interviewed by a guy named mark, Levin and trump proposed a new I call it a conspiracy theory. Maybe it will strike you as something different about china covered in tariffs and trumps suggestion was that the term gifts, cost china so much money. China sent the? U s so much money in tariffs that they released covered as punishment. Now, there's a couple problems with that one on american companies pay. The tariffs trumps still doesn't seem to know. This trump seems to believe that when he puts a tariff on chinese, imports someone in china is cutting a check to the united states. american companies by the stuff from china. then american companies cut a check to the united states, for the tariff from doesn't seem to get that, but there is still has the sting to change.

kind of. You can make the argument that if there is a suitable alternative domestically or from a different country that it will reduce imports, but but but but it didn't happen, and we actually have reports now that the tariffs on china cost about a quarter million american jobs. The other. problem with that idea. Is china created and release the virus in order to hurt you, but as of today, five point, seven of the six point: eight million deaths were in other countries too, very indirect way, your mostly killing people in other countries. To hurt trump. Maybe there was. This is the sort of thing where, when I think about how trump dealt with china, it's very scary, because given another four years, who knows what he might do? If he still doesn't understand, have tariffs work? The geopolitics operates complicated ways with carrots.

sticks and Henry Kissinger written quite a lot about this and in some sense the positive aspect here that donald trump was willing to take big risks in the end game geopolitics. With this I giant superpower. That is, China and a lot of others are too afraid to, rate to call them out to come to the table and criticise. I certainly think that an argument that can be made. My question would be what tangible positive outcomes did it led to, and it's tough to identify any I think it's a great thing. I mean listen, one of the things you're kind of getting out, maybe indirectly, is there. There has been the sense that politics has been done very Similarly, for a long time, and even between democrats and republicans still even some policy differences there still the kind of feeling that its disconnected folks in d c mon.

sleep dealing with issues that dont directly affect looked. I get that I'm with you on that. I think the question as to whether trumps bluster was positive other than extraordinarily humiliating in many ways. I come down on. It was an absolute in total humiliation, but I understand that you can recognize trump doesn't know a lot of stuff, but his attitude was a refreshing in some way. That's a reasonable position for someone to take. I disagree with it, but I understand it but is trying and feeling better than trying. This goes well beyond politics in out wang, Gretzky, his weight and about this matter. Jordan is weighed involving the this is. Is it? Is it better to have tried and failed than never? Is it better to have loved and lost than never to have I don't know I mean listen. We lived through four years of trouble. We know what that, for your term was like- and it's very hard for me to say that the things he try

I'd were were overwhelmingly reasonable, but I get the point you're trying to make, and I appreciate it and in its, if we don't do it, of it. And where do we end up shore? We know where we ended up with with trumpetings pretty embarrassing Let's linger on some more strength, We just starting new wars. We Is there something to that? Yeah? That's! It's! It's interesting, there's a few different approaches to dealing with that. First, it's really important to remember that. The counterpoint to that from the folks who like to say that was that Hillary Clinton was gonna start three wars, sometimes they say for war. Sometimes they say five, worse, ok, the geo. Political situation. During the four years that tromp was in office, I dont know that they obviously lend themselves to wars that trump just barely was able to keep us out of. I think the russia thing is interesting, because now it's very popular to go

I can say we know the reason. Bruton didn't do that ukraine thing when trumbo right and to get some help, give trump credit for that. There's a counterpoint to it, which is putin under tromp, particularly if trump got for more years, would have enable to maybe consolidate power in other ways, because of his relationship with trump coming down on one side or the other. It's not my area of expertise, but it's not the open shut slammed on that being a trump like the state is putin didn't invade because he knew I would crush on it. So it's not obvious to me that there were eminently wars that would have started during that time. That being said, you know, for all the criticism of obama during crimea. Trumped seem to just kind of forget about that. After The criticism is actually going to do anything about that, and so there's there, our foreign policy criticisms that that could be made,

but it is true. No new wars were started under trump, and I I like that. I dont like worse when you think about his handling of covered can you say what are the pros and cons of his handling of covered? The con for him is he'd, be president right now, if he had handled differently. I think it's abundantly clear early on, and there is now a lot of really good reporting about the conversations he was having with Jared cushions and others. He became convinced either because of things he was being told or because he decided. This is the way it's going to be. This is going to go away. Fine! It's in china, ok, it's in china and italy. Okay, we have fifteen cases, but it will soon be zero will be opened by easter of twenty twenty.

None of it happened if he had handled it in the following way, and I've said this to rogan, and I've said this to Patrick bet David, and they tend to all see my side of this. If trump had said, listen, we don't know how bad this is going to be, but I care too much about the american people to take a shot. So it's not gonna be two weeks. It's gonna be a little bit, but I need your help. We're gonna bring everybody together. I don't care if your democratic republic and we're gonna have Magda masks and you could have kept two cents on the dollar to pay off stormier who have right, but it would have been. I think he wins reelection, because the perception was in reality is a version of that. The perception, why that he was way to cavalier about it. Early on people died who didn't need to die, and I think that it was arguably

the one area where he could have all but guaranteed that he was going to get himself reelected or to push back on that I mean because he must just sort of masks and lockdowns kind of a solution to covet. I didn't mention lockdowns, but I'm glad to talk about politics or quarantine or would like for that. Several solutions to a pandemic get broadly speaking, and one of them is vaccine. As all the you didn't mention that he'd fast track the development he his administration fast track the development. scene, which surprising you didn't really take much credit for. I think you did. I think he tried there's a couple, there's a lot there. What to me, it seems like you can make the case with the trump hand, gestures that his decisions for faster in the development of vaccine saved tens of millions of lives it can make. If he could

in the champion way make that case so couple different things. I know you don't necessarily follow trumps rallies as closely as I do and I'm jealous of you for that, but he did tell the vaccine stuff hugely for a while until his audience turned against him, and then he had To draw this line where he was going, I made the vaccines which none of you have to take by the way freedom. You don't have to take em, but it's fantastic and nobody else could have done it, but don't worry, nobody's gonna make you take the vaccine and he actually got booed at a couple of his own rallies when talking about vaccines, but let's back up a little bit fast tracking, my understanding of what he did is he did what any president in his situation,

would do and what many world leaders elsewhere that as well, which is he agreed to a pre purchase supply of vaccine in order deprived, provide money to pharmaceutical companies to scale up the manufacturing, which is absolutely fine. But he wants one of the stories he tells us. It usually takes twelve years to develop a vaccine. We did it in mind what might nine months thanks to me decades of Are any technology being developed created the platform in which you can make a particular back seen in nine may, I didn't have anything to do with trot. He did pre funds. We will by huge supply and that provided liquidity to the pharmaceutical companies, but I also delegated control to two people to experts that enable that kind of thing, tracking vaccines right. He was very eager for the fda to approve it because he saw that there would be

medical, better. He didn't get in the way. I guess he didn't get in the way fair. I think now we're on save it. He did not get in the way of vaccines being developed, which is good president's. and bureaucracies have a way of getting in the way, and I dont die disagree with that. I am not aware of really any governments that got in the way I mean it's. Given the global situation, everybody with europe, in countries were pre purchasing vaccine african countries were who were going to be late? to receive vaccines were partnering with the european countries that had prepared interest, but the most interest the thing about all of this is trump did play up the vaccines for a long time until his his crowd didn't want to hear about it anymore, which was crazy. It was sort of like he became a victim of the monster he created to some degree. What are the effects of all this? That makes it we said. His this division over the vaccines is created. Distrust in science and also makes me sad, is the sign

Leaders, I thought you being one of the representatives of that community. I would say completely drop the ball them away. They. They spoke with arrogance They spoke down to people. They spoke in a way that the greatest does not speak witches. They spoke with certainty. O thou humility I like they have all the wisdom and ever all of us, the two don't understand it, but they're going to be. The parent tells us exactly what do verses speaking to the mercy of the problem. The deep core of the problem in the uncertainty. We don't know what to do. The terrifying The pandemic. We don't know anything about it, as is happening. As you have to make decisions, you have to take risks about

but maybe you have to overreact in order to protect the populace, but it's in the face of uncertainty. They have to do that. Not ah not powered empowered by science. Somehow and the deep expertise to somebody like anthony, fogey or claims to have so, like the I just really trouble by, on the other, distrust the size, the resulting from that and that you have to blame the leaders into the degree really. there's take responsibility, and I think I thought you was the scientific leader behind the american response to the pandemic, and I think you failed as good as a scientist as it represents. Besides, I am less some antonov interested is the right word, but the kind of the the fao she review is less interesting to me in terms of what comes next than the first part you mentioned, which is the distrust in science,

and sometimes I'll get voicemail zuri emails from people. My audience who say that I have had to back pedal on certain things related to it. and one of the things I tried to do from the beginning was not speak in certain terms when, We really didn't have complete information. So there was this period where I'd Roxy chloroprene was first sort of mentioned as a possible treatment prophylactic or or some proactive treatment for a covert. Were active treatment for covered along with a bunch of other stuff. There was ever met in. There was vitamin d, there were all sorts of different things and I tried to be careful to say right now. We don't have rigorous science. That tells us that some of these things work it doesn't mean that won't come in the future, at which point if there was something, is cheapest. Hydroxide clerk, when that treaty covert, effectively unbelievable fantastic, it's not there's no way it ever will be determined. We don't have

information right now, so it's not supervise right now to go and start taking this stuff, We eventually learned like with vitamin d having an appropriate vitamin d level, does seem to be based on what I most recently read. Generally protective and a good thing when it comes to infections of different great ok, so that when we we figured out, one of the really difficult things is that the quote. Truth about the vaccines did change and the original again This is all I don't pretend to be an expert budget, someone who synthesizing the medical data writing about it. Originally, the first vaccine later to the wild type. Strain did seem to be very effective not only at preventing death and serious illness, but also transmit and there were people then saying it doesn't prevent transmission over time. As the variants came forward, the vaccine became less effective.

at that. At that point, I started telling my audience something different, because, as far as I was concerned, The reality on the ground had changed in my mind, that's how science works. It's not back backpedaling, its were adjusting our beliefs to what is taking place in the real world were to be fair. The scientists- many of whom are my friends were just biologists their way humility and then people, I can't they thought you were speaking about this or the ceo pfizer who are speaking about this is the fundamental problem. Here is the way size work, as has the way size works is theirs, usually allow more humility and I m a lot more time. experience, but will we know we don't know, and the people like Anthony thought? It would be beneficial for the world. He speaks with more certainty, but because of the The division that formed around that that certainty resulted in became completely counter productive.

People- didn't trust either by the vaccine interest. Any of that you she's there were other contain. The experts are actually knew what they were doing in the busy didn't, anything that was coming out of the mouths of scientists, some presented, some large percentage of the population, see that made you completely ineffective and at scale as a society trying to respond to it. have a pandemic, and that's where I put a lotta blame or leaders. So political leaders and scientific leaders Are the ones who should inspire us to all get together and respond that that should be the case for the pandemic, as should be the case in time of war all this stuff. I generally agree with you in for me: it's really about shared blame There were a lot of different reasons. Why that the early communication wasn't good part of it was mean for me I prefer accuracy rather than overconfidence. I would prefer listen

we don't really know right now, whether masks. who extra, why what we do know is the supply, As really limited of this type of mask, we're gonna try to keep em for the frontline workers. I love that it's the way I want to be communicated to a call was made to do a differently, which was to say the master and actually help yeah, but the real reason is they want to keep them for healthcare workers and then later the masks are what's going to solve. I'm with I'm with you one hundred per cent, I think the other layer to it is you can't ignore the political situation at the time. If trump had one reelection and the vaccine distribution had taken place. Well, was president rather than Biden. My belief is that, The same number of Democrats would have gotten vaccinated but way more report,

dickens would have as well, because they were following not science but political leaders and when it was Biden in DC instead of trump. A lot of those people said, I don't trust the vaccine, but wait it's trumps vaccine. I thought yeah, but something about the way binds distributing it. So I do think you can ignore that political, where I agree with you that occasion was a disaster. We ask you about your widen. What are the strengths and weaknesses of job weaknesses? I think are some of the things you ve done fight. He is not seen as high energy. He is not the same Joe Biden that debated paul ryan and twenty twelve and ran circles around him and just an incredible debate performance. Ah, he is not inspiring in way that someone like a barrack obama, was to people coming up and starting to get interested in politics. I think a lot of those are our criticisms. I think, on policy he's

not interested in a lot of the things that younger voters are interested in. I mentioned cannabis reform and I mentioned student loans, so so I think that that's a deficit for Biden. I think the upside to Biden is when the comes to foreign policy diplomacy high level negotiations. knowing how to engage with allies and productive way. It's tough to find some one whit with more experience than by I know that there are counter points to what I'm saying and those include that was the old biden. The new biden doesn't have it. That includes that's just a sign. wrought because he's been around for so long. Nobody should be around that long and public fit perfectly reasonable criticisms to talk about, but I do see that as one of its strength- and he also oh, is good at knowing when he can work with republicans and when he cat and not wasting more

time than is sort of expected for posturing, reasons, and I think that's a good thing. Do you think he is actually there? so in our day to day operation of government, given his cognitive capabilities due to think he and active in practising executive. I don't know that. I can say that it's because of what may be going cognitive lee, but my sense from the people I talk to is that he's very much involved in the highest level geo, political and big. domestic economic stuff, but that a lot of the smaller issues that presidents might or might not be in in you sort of plugged into that he's not plugged into the the details of a lot of the the lower level stuff yeah. You could probably applies him. Exact criticism him even more so towards the door. Trump administration in terms of being a practising active executive was paying attention

that boy vladimir Putin, that somebody who love The role of the executive has huge amount of meetings has costly tracking nation about agnes sure and all the different subsystems of government Stalin funny enough was also extremely good at this certain people just love the job of being executive and I'm not sure, if thou prompted in a measure for Joe Biden, its current state has the cognitive capability to its a bit good question it kim jong UN's another other one. By the way, you know, there's videos of him examining a pottery you know of of factory where they make plates and making the specific comments about how the plates should be made. I think that in that case, there's a lot of propaganda value to it with trump. I think you're, probably right, you, though he did get involved in the minutiae of things at once. He pulled out a weather map and with it

our drew a different hurricane path that was more politically convenient to him. That's pretty micro now saying the weather channels as young as you did. This is ok assume that their micro, he went to puerto rico, and he gave out paper towels after a hurricane. Now he was shooting them like free throws, which didn't look very good so he will get involved in the micro when its advantageous. You know what I mean by. I do agree with you that he wants to just make it so build the wall. I dunno just build that figure it out, get it done. Coupon beth break your hilarious, and just for the sake of completeness, I should mention the stubborn it would. Biden has done as also what tromp has done businesses active and has like this Mastro list of all the accomplishments? It's about recommend people look at. It causes a scared of rigorous and interesting with links list of all the things you ve done through this list. Some of them are restored. Daily press briefings

cancel the keystone pipeline. Reverse trolls muslim ban required mask of property. Rejoice the purse climate agreement extends didn't payment. Freeze, extend eviction, freeze, historic stimulus bill is william and and funny for border wall, and so on and so forth, deco or the strengthening of dhaka rejoice. The world health organization, and the timing of this, of course, is important and there are several historic stimulus, bills, of course, you criticise support, raised a minimum wage for federal contractors and federal employees for fifteen dollars. There's a lot does allow it makes you realize and will both trump and Biden, that there's a bunch of small details that matter yeah like that matter on people's lives like actual little policies, trump did a lot of stuff. As far as I heard for the military may not big stuff

the small stuff. Yeah I'd be curious. What you're thinking of I mean! I know one of the big things under tromp was we're to get trans people out of the military That's not what I was referring. You are very that he trump that tell you trumps hilarious. These stories that he tells and one of the story and you get to know them if you, if you follow him at all, he tells the story You know when I came into office. The generals came to me and they said sir, the cupboards or bear. We have no bullets So I rebuild the military. You know the cupboards were bare when obama left it and it was just terrible I rebuilt and the generals. I've got the best generals, they said, sir, it's incredible you were able to do you look into it and it's like get us not really true like it is true that there are armaments that just like on a schedule, do get replace than that's part of the military industrial complex, but does nothing like special trump really did, but these stories become they take on like a life of their own and it's interesting to sometimes try to dig down and figure out like was there any policy connected to that. Is that just a story

I is possible to have a good conversation with each of them, Donald trump and Joe Biden in a pot in a pot context or in a debate context. Apps, Yeah you sing all. Could I with either of them over a hundred percent, yet Joe Biden too sure can you dig into that dilemma well, I mean I don't know what I think there's maybe something implicit in your in your question, but this deeper about the nature of politics and politicians. Yes, I think with either of them I mean the political France's wouldn't be an impediment to having a good conversation with either of them. I think one of the things that's really tough. In my experience when talking to elected officials is they could be super interesting about a hundred different topics, but handlers

side or try to get you to talk about something, you don't really care about in something really narrow which doesn't bring out your best nor their best and that's a frustration. But I think that, given an unstructured three our conversation, I think it would be interesting to talk about a minute, listen with with Biden aside from his view on cannabis or whatever his background and the incredible unimaginable family tragedy that he had in his first wife and multiple? dying every day it it's just incredible, you know, and and with tromp. I think also. You could have an interesting research gathers the human beings with a life story. Yes there that, and there are some of the most successful humus who have ever lived. Tat rose to this highest office an interesting, complex ways. He s, one of the things of travel by may be, can speak to his. Why, worse negative towards present

canada. Communism president's why it's just the growth of this shit storm, no matter who they are younger, like a hate, it all the conspiracy theories and just just the dynamics of how we talk about then his vicious. If you, if you just look at replies, even bronco obama on twitter, it psych. What is going on here, white wine cause. We look at other leaders and other spaces. There were generally positive about it. Yeah there's a couple different things: there's this dynamic, which is really unfortunate, witches you ask people, do you approve of the job? a particular president is doing, and very often, if at any point, while they were in office, they did something you dont like people will say: I don't approve, and so by its nature, what that means

just like the longer you're in office, the lawyer approval ratings going to be, and very often that's, the way it works. I mean there's major events like nine eleven spite george w bush is approval to a Incredible level than it came back down with the iraq war, but there's this unfortunate thing that when, when people are just ass, you think binds doing a good job if form cigar Biden did something on health care that somebody didn't like. Even if you like, most of it, a lot of people from that point forward will say: I don't approve them global forum because they like him better than the alternative, would have its it's just the dynamic of politics, and I agree with it very doesn't have to be that way. If I don't think it has to be that way, but to unwind it so many things would have to change. I think our election system is part of why politics is the way it is where you have two choices and its first past the post, and

We have this electoral college so that, depending on which state you vote in that the kind of meaning insignificance of your vote is different. If you vote in montana it's the report, and candidates going to win and that changes the date the dynamic, I think, that's part of it. I think that at a personal level. I have experienced this in my life. A lot we ve become, and by we I mean people in the united states to some degree who talk about the stuff we ve become uncomfortable. When there is disagreement, and it bleeds over into now. We can have a normal interpersonal relationships anymore, I'm from argentina and in argentina it's really common. Even in my family, there are incredibly heated political debates. at the start, the middle, the end of some kind of gathering. But then everybody just goes back like ok. We disagree on some things, but that's ok,

Then we can now go in the ito, finnish, cooking, the beef or whatever it is that we're doing- and I experienced the civic even with people who come up to me on the street nigger just earlier today, a guy came up to me and he said our f k all the way baby talking about Bobby Kennedy junior and I just cut in our new. Let's see what happens, and then there was another moment where the guy ended up standing next to me for maybe longer than he thought, and I could tell this guy's getting so awkward because it was an utterance he thought that would just beyond the flying had begun, but now we're standing next to each other waiting for sandwiches. It's like no big deal. You know it's! Ok, you like Bobby Kennedy, junior em, I don't plan to over its fine. You know and that's like a socio cultural thing. I think there's lots of other countries. I've spent time in italy I have relatives in Israel were like shouting at each other is sort of like normal, and then you just go back and finish them. It sounds like shouting, I'm sort of exaggerating but very aunt

made it? What seem like big disagreements and then everybody school I wish it were more normal, so maybe them It is, of course, from shouting to being cool again needs to improve Maybe we can solve the shouting at each other, so Maybe we need to somehow fear the de escalation like making up I've had a few hours in face of friends. I let her politics now out now, but political style emotionally drenched stuff in it. It was interesting to go through the whole process and make up at the end, but it is a process and it was a process, the required being in person right talking through it, and it was stressed for the whole of the whole thing in maybe because most of our interactions are online. We don't get

just to do that in person making up again I don't know, but the cheating is a feature or a bug of the system. There were so I just hate each well, the powerful you mean, should the online part. I think it's a fee, You mentioned earlier perfectly witches you take Contentious political issues. You create a platform that rewards, controversy and disagreement and limits the number of characters you can use to express yourself, you kind of throw it into a baby. dixon and do not mix the entire thing up. Its complete and total kay ass. In one of the things that you know, I've talked before about all the angry emails and threats and stuff that I get. I am acutely aware that if I had in person conversations with most- these people, the conversations, would basically be like. Oh, we have different views, about how to solve some of the problems were facing. We probably agree about what the problem is.

We probably share many values, but on these particular four issues we may have very different views, but that's ok Online, that's not the case, and it leads to you know the mess mess that we set ourselves in, but I think that it's a feature of a lot of the systems that are being used to disseminate information again, the milliner on that do regret some of the mockery in the snark use on twitter and even in your show, the kind of feeds that division? I don't regret it in the sense that it's a calculated part, or tool that I use in addition to fit. Bring out or to simplify complicated concepts and choosing stories that I think are under represented at its it's all part of like the package of what I'm doing. I recognize

that my show is not the audio visual visual version of a peer reviewed. You know randomize control, trial, about abortion, views on abortion or whatever the case like I'm very much aware of that, but I don't regret including it as it as a tool that I've used to build the community in some total that I built over the last more than ten year. I guess I could ask about the different your dexterous, you think, he'll show my take so you know the dynamic you had without from junior and maybe Canada's owns the more appropriate comparison. Are you ok having their dance for the next The years between you and candace owens and just kind of the mockery, the derision that is a part of that process and and taking part in that- you know I fine with it in the sense of, personally I tolerate it. Well

until it crosses the line and will pull my family in an keep rats? That's the targets. We set the fairest oversight if I said that, if such us than the digital space I'm glad to mix it at another truth is kinda zones has had me blocked for years up until this incident I shall live. She unblock me just to tweet about what I tweeted about. I dont know the backstory of that genuinely. I have no idea, so I dont have a sense that she super interested in in engaging with me on that but all of these people I mean candice owens- is welcome on my show any time don juniors welcome on my show any time it's been a decade since I had been shapiro on he's. Welcome at any time, I am glad to have these conversations and I think it's an important thing and also I wish everybody was willing to have the conversations in good faith rather than as performance. Simon really performance are, rather than being simply performative for an audience that you

It was your motivations DC do about the effects of something we spoke of spoke about offline like the youtube algorithm, Do you are you driven by the number of use, your videos get or even by something else? So in my world I guess I would say the number of views that any platform generates is a metric. that. I can choose how to interpret. I can choose to turbid it as I've created content, that's interesting to people or created content- is really angering people and that's why they're showing up they don't actually like it. It's because they're angry whatever else in his maybe. But it is true that there are algorithmic changes that can take place there. Something happened in early january that affected us on youtube or their periods on Tik tok, where you can tell we're doing all the same things

something has happened and then will you never usually figure out what it is. So for me, it's sort of just like a general tool to see. What is the level of interest in what I'm doing and are number so out of whack, which, with what I would expect that I should look into whether something deeper is happening. Has there been some change due to an algorithm or whatever the case may be? I had a debate once with someone who accuse me of using click bait. Generate views and we had a really interesting conversation where I said tell me really what you mean by that is Europe argument that using titles that don't actually represent. What's in the video No what's in the title is in the video I got ok, so it's not that the title is dishonest. Are you same, saying I'm deliberately picking titles that will gardener a larger audience and they said yeah, that's kind of what I mean I said: isn't that kind of what we're all doing the alternative would be choosing titles to generate a smaller audience, which seems like a real kind of waste of time. So

I'm trying to navigate and play game in a way that comfortable but use the metrics more as a tool than a something to obsess over. Nevertheless, the metric what they are and that they are able to affect your psyche, it's very difficult, which is why I have a conversation that hides all the views and all that on you to prove our for me is difficult not to let it affect how you think about ideas, so maybe your extensive expiration of a particular topic like healthcare generate very few views is difficulty still care about healthcare, there's some aspect of the human mind that starts being affected by those use and as a really dangerous thing more mostly it's it's probably beneficial, because it probably makes your butter presenter.

If you, if you do care about a topic ally, you become more charismatic, more you learn servant or Jimmy MR beast way how to present ideas better, but it also can affect which topics you choose to cover. Will you choose to think about those top. Fix the audience capture, those topics has a really scary effect. I am I'm a word about my own mind and that they are run from that aggressively. One of the things that I they include in my overall approaches. I dont think but anyone clip, I think, about an inch his show or a week of shows or a month of shows, and so it's less about. Does any one clipped you well my view going in is I'm going to do stuff that won't do that? Well, but I think it's really important to do, and I want to make it part of my show, and so, when did a clip with ten ideas for reducing gun violence. I know that that's not gonna get five hundred thousand or a million views. I know it's just not going to, and the first

it'll get twelve thousand and I'll go. I don't care that. That's fine, there's, there's a group of people in my audience that values this stuff and I want to keep doing this stuff so I'll end up surprised some time and two weeks later has one hundred and fifty thousand views because it started being shared are great, but I don't go into it. Thinking. These all need to be home. Runs by that metric. I always go in saying. I want to put out a diversity of content, including stuff, that is less titillating installations, but is important to do it more researched, etc, and so that's the way I try to resist exactly

What you're talking about air the gift to probably know yourself like for me metrics, I just like numbers too much and for me at metrics- do affect me. This is why don't pay us at all like I can't, and I would love to hire somebody in the gym. Who cares because we currently have. I didn't folks who just offers just don't care cause. He probably is good to care enough to courage to good thumbnails in this kind of stuff to do to pay attention, but to me personally, I just find inner peace and focus if I do, think about the numbers at all. Did I find myself I remember a long time ago, and I started a pike s. It out think that I failed. If it didn't do well, I guess I didn't celebrate the personal well enough. I didn't do a good job. enough of conversation with that's, not necessarily at all what that means. It's it's hard not to list is tough stuff, I mean yeah. I know exactly what you're saying an part of it is I'm

it starts in my. You have a little bit of a different situation than me, because you're doing long form conversations with people and the press is a little bit differently. One of the things in my space, because I'm reacting mostly to what's going. in the news and then also picking topics to dive into it. A little bit more deeply is, I have very little control over the new cycle and there is a map, a meta metric or a macro metric that affects me. That will quadruple my audience and then take twenty five percent of it away, which is the seasonality of election cycles and the first few election cycles. It's very tough because I go it's it's october, I'm like at this rate we're gonna have to, million subscribers by next year. These numbers are unbelieving here and there january thirtieth. Do you know

iterations over the debate, is about the debt ceiling and nothing's going on, and I go nobody's watching my content. This, I must have. I must have forgotten to uploading like something must be wrong. It's completely beyond my control, so I just- and I think part of what you're saying is I try to focus on the things I can't control and understand those that I really have no control over whatsoever and try not to worry about them and try to do the things that make you happy at the end of the day. You mentioned are of k the game at what you think about of the other candidates outside your by needed in the democratic party are of key junior. What would you think of him? Carry met him. We once had dinner and we have a number of friends in common, which is what makes this a little more awkward, but I think his campaign is basically sort of like a chaos candidacy

to raise awareness and maybe raise money either for his book or is anti vaccine organization children's defence fund. I believe it's called I think there is some reporting that steve ban and really if the idea of him running as a democrat again to just generate chaos, I don't find it super interesting. I don't find it worthy of that much discussion, a smart guy, nice guy, has been doing anti vaccine work. That I don't find particularly inspiring smudges on anti covert vaccine is broken. A broader in the that space long before the covered vaccines, yeah yeah, I don't find it super interesting who he also wrote the book the real anthony archie that never the book did he write that. Doesn't I didn't I I don't know, I'm not sure with that. I'm aware of that book I didn't know he wrote it. I think I need it, but it's been a it's been on my reading list to get I've been trying to get a good.

balanced reading list about the covert pandemic, to understand what the hell happened and a thomas start to try to go into that place is just I'm exhausted by it. Will it's interesting to me that you wouldn't wait longer before delving into those books to have maybe a more clear, hindsight and abetting? This is a pretty good time you, you don't think so, because this is a. It depends on your goals, the if you're thinking of it as a historical event. You should probably wait longer, but if you think about like understanding what is broken about our system, that we responded so poorly that there is so much division was broken about our political system. That it didn't, unite us divided us who to blame, there is probably a lot of different narratives

the more you learn about this that the body can understand a red, dumb and just lateral reboot narrowed like five biography authority, maybe more just it helps to really understand that. People involved, the organizations involved. I dunno everything from the scientists to the political leaders and I felt like the blog posts and tweets didn't quite catch. Let him gregor know what one of the thing I read a ton. I don't read any like much turn political book. So I dont read the memoirs of elected officials. I don't read, and I just feel like I get enough of it in my job, so my reading list is just other things. Its history narrative, nonfiction economics etc, and that's my bias,

I am so overloaded with a lot of the stuff you're talking about, I haven't read any of obama's books. I didn't read John Bolton's book or eat. I I don't read any of that stuff, although I'm sure there there is value to be gleaned from it. What about the other candidate that going to the suburbs, and as you mentioned, you criticise a little bit. Marianne Williamson. Do you think the pros and cons of her as a candidate. This is another area where many in my audience really are angry with me. I don't find candidacies super interesting I'll. Tell you the pros and cons. As I see them, I do think that we have elected officials in the. U s particular the president's from really narrow range of background, so it's lawyers and sometimes busy. People very, very often lawyers. I would, I think we would benefit from a much greater diversity of background.

and I once said, and that would include people from education people from the science world, people with backgrounds, maybe nonprofits, etc. Now marian williamson did, I guess at one point, run some kind of small nonprofit and some in my audience thought that could she'll alone would make me fall head over heels in love with the idea of a marianne candidacy. I've interviewed for her it's just not for me is the way I like to say it. It's that the background of the WU wu type stuff is a bit off putting to me. I understand that some one with literal christian bible beliefs that also I dont, like maybe I'm more willing to accept, as most of our president's of course, of have had those views, because their otherwise more qualified but some of the things that she says just strike me as men. I just I just don't know I'll give you an example when she was on with Russell brand. She said: there's no such thing as clinical depression

It just means someone in a clinic told you, you have depression. I don't believe that to be the case, I think we have an understanding, there's two types of depression: there's like a genetic predisposition, depression, there's like a acute some things happening in my life temporary depression. Again, when she was asked about it recently. She said I didn't mean it. I was just trying to impress Russell brand. I dont know if I'm more bothered by four things. First said earlier by the fact that she wanted to impress Russell read, but it's just like it's just really not for me, and I agree. With her on, we need to take the climate more seriously. We need to expand access to hell, I'm with all that stuff. Now I want to say one of the thing about this. Anybody who wants to run should run. I am not suggesting there should be an uncontested primary for Joe Biden absolute, so you think it should be contested. Will what I mean by contested is so there's two parts to what we mean by contested. Will the Dnc

organise debates and we'll get then a second, but should should anybody who's on the left get out of the way, because Joe Biden as president and he's running for reelection, absolutely not the question about. Should there be debates, I would like there to be debates. The Dnc pretty clearly isn't going to organise them. I think if you did them, you would have to say: What polling level do you qualify, and I don't know exactly where you put that number, but I think it would be a great thing to put Joe Biden on a stage with if you can get what six percent eight percent I'm not really sure what the number would be, I'm totally all for that was a set of candidates, at least from my perspective. So we Do you have if you have and understand, there's a lot of different answers to this. One aspect to this, which I think is more of a socio cultural thing, which I've recently read about to some degree, is the job actually turns off the people who would be best at it because of what you need to do to become present.

And it includes all but completely abandoning your existing day to day life, job which you may depend on and family to some degree, its horribly negative. As we already talked about and at the end of all of that, you either lose and then have to rebuild and maybe you're, not an opposition be able to do that. If you win and then now you've got four years of being one of the most hated people, no matter how good a job you do. So, I think by it's nature, it turns off a lot of people. That would otherwise be good, and I also think that there's a lot of posturing from within the parties about well, you might be good, but it's not your time yet. So you should wait and then, let's talk about, maybe a Senate seat here and there. So it's like it's like a company essentially and they're figuring out where they want to place people. I think

All of these things make it so we end up with candidates. Most people aren't super thrilled with so it's difficult for somebody, who's, young or an outsider to or to quickly become a candidate. I think that that's true and I think also in a lot of ways. It's just not I mean. Would you want to be president? No, I mean I can't because I born in the. U s. It's easy for me to say, but if everyone says no, there were get the people that we have. No, I understand so our love to help somehow. sure and I feel like there's not even a mechanism for helping the except through the democratic that the voting process, but I'm just noise, how little technology there is in the whole process. How? little innovation. There is in the whole process of this. The sad thing is this is written about a lot which is there's this thing called political hobbism

I think, there's a good chance that some of the people in my audience are political hobbyists in the sense that they followed this stuff as entertainment to some degree. and I have written a lot about how I've read a lot and talked a lot about how okay, we vote. Every years or every four years in our local elections, etc, and then we think about politics all the time a neil postman wrote about this in his book amusing ourselves to done. But what are you actually going to do about the kid starving in this country and the nuclear build up in that car it's. Ok if everybody refocused their attention on their immediate communities, and that could mean any number mean the town or city you live in, or it might mean an athletic club or whatever. If everybody this time they spent on political hobbism, they moved somewhere

which might put me out of a job. That's ok, I'm willing to lose my job because I think it would be so beneficial. Then our star communities would just be that much better because you can actually affect change in a much more tangible way locally, whether it's obvious people talk about potholes but other things as well. Yeah- and I wish our system was more amenable to that kind of contribution. Hopefully, through the digital space would be me, ask about on the republicans I'd run dissenters. Would you think of him as a candid money guest down trump? I think in a couple of weeks before are our discussion today. His campaign, which has even started, has sort of started to implode, and this was something that I started thinking about in September october. He really doesn't seem ready for prime time in the sense that just being confronted and confronted, not even the right word just being asked about

some topics he didn't really seem to want to talk about. He responded in such a sort of disproportionate, unhinged way during his recent trip to asia. He was asked about why are you or why are you responding, but in this weird way, trumps attacks on you and he went into this weird babo had thing with a weird smile, Something came out that didn't make any sense in short of got mad at the reporter and it was just like if you can't and all that you can't be on a debate stage, but donald trump and again for all my criticisms of from the guy gets you wanna debate stage. He can make you look pretty silly. He was recently asked about his role at guantanamo bay when he was an officer in I forget which branch of the armed forces and he just sort of attacked the journalist asking the question, and it isn't

It looked very bad and there are increasingly big republican donors who are not fans of trump and were sort of hoping to put their eggs in the rhondda santas basket. Who are saying this guy just doesn't have what it takes. I don't think he can do it. So I don't know if and this will be able to get away once you're polling twenty, something like he is, and you haven't even announced it's very attractive and he probably to some degree, is thinking. If I wait till twenty twenty eight, I might not have this opportunity again, but trump's polling. Fifty two. Fifty three, which means even if the santas gets all of the current non trump vote, he has to figure out how to take something more for trump from trump. I I just don't know how he does it. First of all, the implosion aspect that this part of the process isn't it employed a bunch of a bunch of times and then rebuild yourself and rebuild and because the new cycle conifer gets its possible. The problem is, if you, the first debate, is in august, so that only a few months away and the decisions going on, we have to be met.

pretty soon and unless he can get a new model, damn going. I just don't know how he gets what he needs in order to really have a shot So would anyone else running a star from its very tight? Right now I mean there are other people run running. There's this guy vat, rama, swami, who's, running a Nicky hayley Is running her campaign basically dead on arrival trumpet It really does better in polls the more people run when, when it's just him and the santas that's the best scenario for dissenters. It's not great for this and this, but it's it's certainly better, and but I think the difficulty is. This is a question for republicans to figure out the people who rightly recognized and twenty sixteen, that the sky is not good for their party and still believe. This guy is not good for their party, but many of them recognise that most of the voters are still behind him. You can always say it's early. His polling doesn't really mean anything anything

and something major would have to happen for trump to lose that lead. If he got more, if he was arrested, more times and more indictment, and it just became like this guy can't even campaign because he so busy going from court court may be. That would make a difference. It's really tough to imagine. You said that there are three categories of people who were republican and the trouble introduce the fourth one well can go through the four categories jerk, so you ve got like your pro business low tax republicans. These are mostly people like mitt romney, mitt romney has a bit of the social conservatism as well as more men and that's their but mitt romney, primarily particularly as in northeast sort of, look at me and are you talbot governor massachusetts? He is like a low tax pro business type guy. You got your libertarian type republicans who are primarily about

freedom and liberty, often they are actually more socially liberal. Where they go. I don't care about gay marriage, liberal, I don't care so much about abortion and that overlapped a little bit The tea party movement in two thousand and ten, although tea party, did have a religious component but sort of like the libertarian freedom minded folks, and then the religious conservatives, people that support candidates like Josh hawley or a ted cruz, et cetera, where there are big thing, our social issues, often they actually want christianity being so government they dont want separation of church and state. Those are traditionally the three republican groups, the one that trump introduced was people who just didn't really pay attention to politics, but either follow celebrity or had grievances that they didn't yet have a scapegoat for and were sort of, right, leaning.

Culturally, even though they didn't a tribute that two republicanism and tromp was able to bring them into politics, often for the first time as voters, they could be part of any of those three groups. If they get more into politics, or a kind of their own thing, but they're more kind of like cult of personality, I'm here for trump types did it have to do anything about it? The chores day, politics all that kind of stuff yeah I mean so Twenty sixteen when trump mobilise them. Those weren't really issues the way they are now. So I think at the time at that time it certainly was not a What was the mobilizing issue, and it was a just and hilary into a sixteen there, what he did a good job on anti hilary, but a lot of it was identifying real economic problems, wage depression, lack of jobs and parts of the country. You know higher in indiana trump rightly identified that we have an issue here. We don't have enough entrepreneurship, etc.

but there was also a lot of scapegoating. That was, you know china and people coming through the. U s. Mexico border were popular scapegoats for a lot of those problems. This gets us kind of populism. Populism is iran rick and populism as a rhetoric doesn't necessarily come with particular policies. You can be a populist, a user of populist rhetoric and propose solutions that would be more aligned with Bernie or tucker karlsson. Populist will often identify the plight of the middle class the difference would be Bernie will say we ve gotta, put some restrictions on how much billionaires, can make, and we ve got to reinvest in these social programmes. Tucker wills, may be a lamb taking your house and a brown person for mexico. Taking your job are what we need to deal with so the the populist rhetoric and lends its lend itself to very different policy and tribute that view

effectively in twenty. Sixteen waiting. Hillary Clinton was hated, as entails issue was by a certain percentage of the population. It feels like that's the first election eyewitness where there's a lot. I hate- maybe I'm my mother I don't remember, obama, I remember the degree of hate the result. Conspiracy theories, a he was born in this I agree, but I don't remember hate towards obama, record death threats under obama. More than any previous president wrote torres, who told him towards him yeah. I do you mean more hate between voters or chin voters between voters, but like that, I guess what I was speaking to

but that hate was directed towards the narrative. The thread that connected all of that I enjoy sixteen was Hillary Clinton. Few different things do and I'm not ranking these. These are just all things that come to mind. One is hillary Clinton had been around in the political space for a long time from her time is first lady, through a senator secretary of state etc. So I think that there was enough time for different groups to develop an antipathy towards her for different reasons so time. Secondly, trumps branding of hers, crooked was very effective where there were so many people are demanding that she be imprisoned. If you ask them what is the crime, they don't know, but you should definitely be locked up. That became a very big thing

the email story, as it were, and james call me doing a second public event about that invest nation? Even though there wasn't any actual news about, it is doing a second event about it at the last minute, I think hurt her and also generated some hate, and I don't find Hillary Clinton to be particularly likeable. Although I voted for her, I thought she was the better candidate and I think that there are others who also didn't find her, particularly likeable that Those are a lot of impediments to becoming president was trying to understand. Why there's so many conspiracy theories about Clinton's in general, bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, and I. Maybe I'm not researched, ward off the of the wye of it the. Why of it? Actually, the extent of the conspiracy theories that sort of the the the conspiracy theories that they've killed a lot of people, this kind of stuff-

it's hard for me to speak to them, because I am aware that they exist, but I'm not an expert in them because they seem so obviously baseless to the degree that I've read them a little bit and then I move on and they know it's been years since I've looked at the stuff. I know there's the south rich one and there, the Clinton body count one. I think, there's one connected to Epstein. If I recall correctly, there there's all sorts of these different ones and without speaking to any of them specifically because I'm not the expert on Clinton conspiracies. Ah, it does seem as though this stuff for so long has generated an audience. I mean I remember in the supermarket when bill Clinton was president at the check out. Seeing the tabloids- and there were stuff about- hilary birth and alien baby- and you know, although it seems like it been titillating two people for a very long time. While another question from ready speaking values, I would be curious to hear David's views are conspiracies and conspiracy theories, the extent to which real concerns

this happened and why conspiracies that have little evidence behind them, manage to be so compelling two people, regardless also Please bring up aliens and you a piece: okay, where, where do we start the conspiracy? What so? What are in general, as a person who thinks about politics, earth thinks about this world like where do conspiracy theories fit in for you. I think there have been conspiracies and by conspiracies I'm using a colloquial definition, which is basic. We individuals working together to in a clandestine way impact or affect some kind of events or phenomenon

very, very broadly, I mean certainly that those things have happened and the to pick to jump around to some of the things that were in there. I think the reason that conspiracy theories are so compelling is that it's really tough for a lot of people to accept. There are random events, not predictable, specifically at the catholic level. We might be able to predict them, but specifically unpredictable bad events. In many ways I could be the victim of one or you could or my family. Could that's really scary to a lot of people, understandably so and for some people, it's less scary and more soothing in a way to say there are really random events like this. Somebody planned it and if we had just known who planned it, it just could have been stopped because we would have known exactly when that's just as psychological level easier to x.

Opt for people, and I get that to some degree because listen, it's it's not the most exciting thing that everything can just be going fine and something absolutely horrible happens and kills. Who know some number of people are, so I think that's the biggest a tractor too a lot of these conspiracy theories. It doesn't apply to all of them. We ever there still cut a basic understanding of human nature. Were people. Some people are a greedy and what power and our corrupted by power so there cover these compelling narratives that stick their tom the vaccine is is an opportunity for a powerful billionaire to implant. Chips into you say: can control you further right. It doesnt seem what

say you think for some reason that doesn't seem as crazy as it should, because you think, like maybe high, would contribute to their bethink yeah. You can imagine and evil person a personal that more control, more power. And is also the same time able to convince themselves says she shows that there actually have the best interest of the populace in mind that they're trying to do good for the world so they do evil. While trying to do good, you can kind of imagine so why not? and do you listen to people in power authorities? They caused looking sound shady like yeah the dead. The transparency, especially the older ones. I think younger folks are better Like real is transparent and just like reviewing their flaws in the basic humanity, but people

they're a little bit older and the positions of power are more polished, they're more like there. It feels like they're presenting a narrative where the truth is hidden in the shadows, so I don't think there's anything wrong with suspecting. Maybe a public figure there isn't giving me the full story, totally reasonable thing to question, I don't think there's anything wrong with exploring a lot of these different things. I think the problem becomes an. I know you ve talked about this in so many different ways with other guests. The problem becomes when we lose a shared understanding of how we would assess whether any of these things are true and then both alleged evidence and an absence of evidence both become supportive of the conspiracy theory, because if there is bad evidence, you manipulated and say it's good evidence. If there's no evidence, you say the evidence was obviously hidden by the people.

Carried out the thing or whatever, so unless we can have a shared understanding of how we would determine what true these common conversations, often between atheists and religious folks. How can we detect like is is my faith in something or my desire for wanting to be true, a good way to evaluate whether it is true there really similar questions while they ask about trump on that front, about election twenty election. Maybe the better, it's about january. Sixth, do you think january sixth was a big deal. I do how big of a deal compared to what ah civil war. I think it was less of a big deal. Then the civil war ago now I mean so what The very interesting thing, though, right, because we have not only the ep the event that that's clever. Actually, it's not only the event, but it's what led up to it and what has happened since and did it change what is considered on the table?

That citizens can should or might do if they disagree with the results of an election, so I think that there are further reaching consequences than just was the six hour period on January. Sixth, a bigger smaller deal than the civil war and there so much wrapped up into it me they conspiracy theories, flowed from january sixth as well. Ah, sixty minutes recently featured a guy named re apps, who was targeted by some on the right. claiming that he was an instigator or an agent of the fbi or something along those lines. There were people claiming that no real trade was no true scotsmen sort of thing, like trump supporters wooden riot. So by definition it must have been antigua. Police. Let a man or police were all these different thing. I think it was a big deal in a lot of ways because it completely made us have to go back to the top to say. Ok what

the parameters of valid discussion and activism in the united states, but would aspect of the general six was bad for you. Well, I mean, if you were to think it from a big philosophical go perspective, so presumably the number of people her and then number of people who died is not the only measure to consider here. Absolutely, I think the sum total of what it means about how the united states operates is what most concerned. In all kind of just like flesh it out a little bit so summer of two thousand and twenty trump's already saying they're going to cheat now the polling is close, but it shows that Biden's in a good position. People aren't happy with trump any reasonable person would look and say it

be close, but Biden certainly wouldn't be a crazy thing. If Biden won trump's already saying they're going to cheat with mail in ballots, are they going to cheat with early voting, are or in a cheat with machine sir, we should do only in person or whatever else the case. Maybe we have the election. We knew in certain states how the vote count was going to go. Some states stop counting at ten p m. Some states count all of the mail and stuff up front some, don't everything was completely predictable at two, a m comes out and says I won ok book, but where you, where you getting that, sir, as the he claims, people always refer to him where you getting that and with that statement immediately, we see that there is a large portion of this country that either is annette. well or unwilling to say, wait, a second, the polling all said this was a real possibility. The counting schedules are all being adhered to all, but trump, one that doesn't make any sense that the

happen. It builds people are donating millions to trump for suppose it audits, which nobody can define and law suits, which go nowhere and building build and build and we have a total separation from a factual reality. There is no reason to think by december. First right give three weeks to look through some of this stuff by december. First, there's no reasonable case to be made that trump actually one, but it does an end there. It goes into me. Maybe we can just like send different electors. Even though Biden one arizona, let's just like, send water member, remember how many electors it is an airline. Let us send republican electors to say we we vote for trump. But that's that's not democracy! That's not the way. The system works let make sure were ready, ready for what exactly and then it builds too may be. Mike pence can just like prevent Biden from being present or maybe we can just interfere in this other way and then it gets to let's break into the cabin.

It's the height of saying we no longer comport ourselves attached to what is a verifiable, factual reality and when we no longer do that, were also willing to commit crimes, property crimes, violent crimes, different degrees. In order to try to have something other than democracy, it would Be democracy, if any of those things that happen guy eight, I think that the height of it, I think there is still a case to be made at that. I did not leave the realm of protest verses, a violation of the principles of democracy. So to me the height of what could

but in general six saw is: if Donald trump was much better executive, he could take control of the military. If it had succeeded in all night even succeeded, the attempt would have been more empowered. I understand so I the way not to bring up hitler every other word, which is something your supper, also told me not to do this kind of an appeal figure. It's interesting to study them over to his chickens, reveal so much about human nature and that all of us are capable of good and evil. But thank you, Jim no better or register for your contribution to the conversation, I will keep bringing up there are in the third reich and I'll keep bringing up stolen, there's so much to learn from that. Anyway. The who enough an effective practiced authoritarian could roll the tanks out into the city streets too

establish order and in so doing pause the process of democracy as most a few protesters breaking in two way, questionably protected building. I agree Is that what you're saying would be worse? I dont want to use it to minimize what the protesters were intent on doing they failed, fortunately of have to you. The intention was Twelve, the invention was trumps should remain president. That's the intention and too length, they would have been willing to go if by the evening early evening that they be universe sort of like forced out. I dont know I agree with you. from trying to use the military would apps it would be worse. You know, there's these reports that he tried to seize voting machines, which is kind of funding, has its once you get the machine

at mar a lago. What do you do with it? Exactly? I don't know, there's a like a comedic element to trump sitting around with voting machines, but he did float trying to do some other things. I don't believe there is reporting that he actually tried to use the military. I wonder to what degree this opened the door to further things like this. With other Other candidates on you know, even though, in the democratic party also magic. they'll be more and more questioning of the election result. There has been already, it saw very clearly the playbook carry lake. Lost. She ran for governor in arizona twenty twenty two. She lost what I mean by that is her opponent received more votes like very clear what it means that she lost. She insists to this day that she one to this,

she did the same. Griffith trump did about donate. We ve got a case. We won in the case you didn't when they just set a court day. Like does not does not we're lies upon drift upon lies, so they they did it. Then it is. I I its extraordinarily saddening, but it seems like this is now going to be part of the playbook getting people on the left of so doing don't ever reason to believe that that is going to happen, but I'm not going to say it. Never could absolute. Certainly, could people on the left could start using it as a tactic right now. There is not a sign that that's going to happen, but it certainly good my expectation and I'm not a better man, but I would bet money if Joe Biden loses in november of twenty twenty four. He will say I lost he will call the winner. He will concede and he will

if the white house, in an orderly fashion, you don't think there will be claims of a hacked election? The the ability to hack elections is becoming more and more effective. With the developments on the artificial intelligence side, the difficulty is you're. Basically, they will something happen without me. Knowing anything about the election, imagine There really was evidence of a hack election, then I would want those claims to be made, but the way elections have gone in the past. I don't expect that. That's it, mean that would be made now speaking of evidence of things that were claimed. What do you think about the hunter Biden laptop or, as you tweeted, the laptop from her, the laptop from Hell? T m right, ah, to a degree, was this a laptop story important and to a degree? Was it not at this point,

I have said many times if there is any reason to believe that hunter Biden, Joe Biden, naomi Biden jill by hilary obama doug em. If there's any evidence any of em, committed a crime, they should be investigated, they should be charged and they should be tried period. The hunter Biden top thing has been floating around for so long and we still have zero actual. pieces of evidence of any crime, particularly involving Joe Biden, There's the claim from some that references to the big guy are about Joe by getting ten percent for some illicit. It's been years. They ve been saying this that they have not been able to bring forward any evidence on it. So,

oh my assessment of the hundred Biden laptop is, it seems to mostly be a story about nude images released without someone consent, which is illegal in most states and violates twitters per policies. That's main story to me beyond that you know how many people have a copy of this hard drive at this point. Rudy had it Tucker do member when Tucker does this is this unbelievable tucker said that he mailed himself a copy, a usb stick and it got lost in the mail? If you have the mother lode proving the criminality of Joe and hunter Biden, and he Don'T- you just dropped it off with a stamp and he got lost in the mail, you don't have a backup copy them. So I'm

ready for the evidence to come forward. Hunter Biden has nothing to do with Joe binds administration, but as a person who, if he committed a crime, charge him investigate him whatever, but it's it's getting. It's almost getting satirical the degree to which there talking about hunter Biden laptop. What do you think about the social media aspect of this that that story gets answered when we think about censorship in general, on social media that that story during an important time in the electoral process, answered, so I as a matter of principle. I think we have to define what we mean by censorship, but I am against censorship, short of illegal content, I guess is the way I would put it. I do respect accompanies right to have terms of service and to enforce as long as they're, not illegal, if twitter

were to say we don't published content from jewish people. Ok now we ve got a problem on our hands, but what what is dubious to me is the claim that, had people been able to see hunter Biden genitals, they would have voted for trump, which I know it's like David you're you're, making light of but at the end of the day, what exactly is the claim that if you had known more about hunter Biden, I guess allegedly hiring prostitutes and and having a drug problem and seen pictures you wouldn't have voted for? oh Biden, I mean I know me a vote or I don't feel that way I think it's less about the content and about the actions of arm a social media company to control what what you see, we don't see,

You can imagine a social media companies like facebook and twitter, making the same kind of decision about our more impact, full story than are a few dick pics on the laptop. While I think if that happened, then my view might be different but I do might my general view, though, on the hunter Biden story has had the articles not contained those images that were illegal in many states and violated twitters policies. I would tape, publish it absolutely I don't think it would have an impact, but I would be in favour of it being the links being allowed a hundred percent ok you Tucker, wouldn't waiting my target fired from fox you, a media person that works independently. Yes fought Tucker was a media person does work independently bright. Ah woody. What do you think about that? Particular situation

As a representative of some big shift, this happening in mainstream media would be basically mainstream. Media freaking out because of funding is getting worse alas, alas, and there's gonna, give more power to individual commentators, basically tough across and just starting a pocket. So you do care, I think that's what he should do. I think that's the most profitable path, rather than may be going to work for news. acts or whatever the case may be, but the firing fundamentally was not a politically o oriented firing. That suggest fox news is changing its tune, pull equally in any way. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. Tucker karlsson sickly became a legal problem for fox news does really four points to it. One is The seven hundred eighty seven and a half million dollar settlement with dominion partially was because of the claims that went out on Tucker carlson's programme so to some degree Tucker's programme.

was a prominent knowed of the problematic claims that became the subjective velocity. That's number one number two smart matic, which is another voting machine company still has a similarly size lawsuit against fox news, based on the exact same sorts of claims. It may cost fox news again so does now to problems that tuckers, a big contributor to number three former tucker staffer, has brought a lawsuit and I dont remember the exact claims, but I know that there are claims of different types of discrimination. It, sir. It seems like it has legs and that may be a third payout related to tucker, carlson and based on the sixty minutes piece from a few weeks ago, re ap, saying tucker ruined his life by fomenting conspiracies about him around January six, that's ripe for another lawsuit. So to me, Tucker's firing was a risk mitigation strategy out of many that will be employed as as these lawsuits come

forward. There is no evidence that it's because fox didn't like and what we mean by that it who are we talking about rupert murdoch, doesn't like or the print out or no, but I dont have any reason to believe it's because Tucker's ideas were no longer welcome on fox, certainly the audience like them since. It's not about saving about the ratings, the budgets that legal costs, foxes. Interesting. The ratings question is interesting because fox, unlike most other or every other cable news channel day, negotiate a fee from every cable subscriber. If you have fox news as a channel, even if you don't watch it fox gets a little bit of money, they are dramatically less dependent on ad revenue, then cnn and MSNBC. So the ratings question is an interesting one, but foxes position is different. Ana another course him from read. It.

Both sides are the same in quotes is a meme notion that has spread far and wide in american political discourse on the internet. To what extent do agree or disagree with this notion. and why do you think it is so popular now this red covered also says the park like, so bad and Joe rogan or the legit common george carlin are examples of big proponents of this notion which can disagree with. Russell brand joe rogan and george Carlin Both sides are the same. The same and use that you know all politicians are crooked and the suck in this kind of thing. I don't

Well, if they're, I dunno, if that's true, maybe George carlin anyway. Let's leave that aside to what degree do you think I do agree with this notion that both sides of the same left and right, the crooked corrupt politicians they do are politicians. Do I don't agree that it's the same? I think there are different, actions that like to say that, for different reasons, there are some individuals who want to present themselves is kind of being of above the fray of partisan politics. and so it's big eight, I call it enlightened centralism and jimmy that positively. Now I mean it negatively yeah, it's a bit of a priority the idea that I am not going to fall for being a Democrat or a republican. I can see that these are just two sides of the same coin: equally bad lying to ever. Ok, that's one. It's sort of like its popular dinner parties in some circles to go

Both all these politicians in left and right, that's one side of it. The other side of it is that its often used when, when your side has really stepped in it, it's a popular way. with acknowledge that your side has done something wrong, but wall aiming at as it's not uniquely wrong and, if not worse than what anybody else does- and I find that it's me- of the lay mist and most conakry inducing things to here because of the what comes next and usually what comes. Next is not a good, accurate criticism of something that took place and a discussion of how to solve a real problem that we have. I find it

conversation stifler. It also is used to kind of suppress voter turn out, not actively. It's not that the people who say that go around saying, don't boat, but the idea, of course, is the more people that believe that it doesn't really make a difference who you vote for its going to suppress voter turnout, and I want voter turn out to be as high as possible, not as was possible, so I also dislike it. For that reason, though, is it possible to say that one side is worse than the other in in modern current political climate, listen, I'm a person on the left. I'm not pretend to come here as as not knowing that my view is biased, because I'm a person of the left, vs Ben Shapiro he'll, tell you something different, I think in twenty twenty three sum total the influence of the imf. and right wing if the amount. And right wing were to get everything it wants. It would be a horrifying reality if the left were to get everything it wants. We'd have to figure

out a few things, including exactly how we pay for certain programmes, but there Mostly noble goals, and I that they are more supportive of an indian. jewel cell. Determining what they were I do in life and how they want to live and is more in line with the idea of freedom and liberty than what the right is currently proposing. That's my view, and. Of course, people will disagree with me and they now we get to freedom and liberty, the way that the right ones to do it, ok, but we can have that conversation so. I think you implied in your answer. It was kind of focused on policy. It felt like us focus on policy there's other stuff. The people worry Japan, particularly with the left. I may be too the woke mind virus wherever

I heard who's using that term a lot now, I'm trying to think the merger of nature mercer where it comes up, but the cultural aspect of this or that You know if you give a lot of power to people on the left. They, as you give as an example. There would be a lot of kind of censorship as suppression of speech and innova dividing up of a society of who is allowed to, to give real occasional resources not based on merit but based on some kind of I the notions of what is right, and Only a very small percent of the population gets to decide. What is what is fair? What is right, which is you know We already have a small portion of the populations deciding fair look at his. but had may differ ways. I can say kind of a negative characterisation of our folks animal

aft when we're now comparing it just as to play devil's advocate says there. Is that something that you worry about support the same policies aside? Ah wokingham? Yes, how big of a problem? Is it this great conversation? So, let's two two sides of it: okay, we have new polling. That seems to suggest so called woke. Ism is kind of more popular in the united states than anti woke ism and, I'll tell you what I mean by that this is the less interesting part will go to the more interesting part. Second, people Sometimes what people mean by woke ism is an over reaction to a perceived injustice that goes beyond what would be fair and equitable. There is really interesting, poland. Asked questions like, for example, do you believe society has gone too far, not far enough or just about the right amount?

in dealing with issues affecting the trans community, the woke position, which is society hasn't gone far enough, was far more popular than We ve gone too far now that the right wing media narrative is we ve gotta, wait you far. This is out of control and there are lots of Other similar answers: it's not a huge, and a lot of these are like fifty eight to forty to sixty two forty, it's not like ninety two ten, but by a small margin, the so called woke perspective of we actually haven't yet done enough to fix. Some of these issues is a little bit more popular. So if we went back to dissent as this is part of why I think the santas is anti war agenda may just be a political misstep. That's really interesting result out. I wonder how the questions are framed by its. Still interesting. Nevertheless, no matter what to hear that people are majority of,

Furthermore, america awoke in the night in a negative sense of the word. The pull didn't used. The term walk right right. Does the critic I think. Let's use the word tour work positively. The term has kind of been perverted miss four years ago, when the term was started to be used. I would have said: oh yeah woke just means like I have become aware of problems that are bigger than any one person can fix for themselves that relate to the system. I think that's where, and we might disagree on which problems fall into that category, but, like it was kind of benign, I think now. It just means like outrageously left wing, maybe even with socialist or marxist undertones, it's becoming a georgia at this also like bullies, maybe water, censurers, yeah bobby bullet go around calling others, racist, sometimes oftentimes

was without easy proof of that or justification fair. But that's worse. That's that a few folks on twitter, you're, saying like the polling is starting to show that like no, there still are, most americans still about these issues, and one know they are wanted. One improve wanna make progress. I think that's the case want to do it in a genuine way that doesn't suppress or oppress anybody, but now let me get to like to what degree do I think that actual when it goes too far is a problem? It absolutely exists. If we can find instances of where this exists on the left and I've been told many times, that is a jewish argentinian emigrant to the united states. I actually don't qualify as oppressed enough because jews or privilege urged now in the: u s and my

family had just enough money to leave argentine. So there's this kind of like oppression olympics thing, we're I've been told you don't get comment, for example, like a topic in the latino community now is: are you familiar with latin ex ok in spanish there's, it's an analogous movement where words by their nature, sort of like have a gender so like the word for friend, is a meagre. But if it's a woman you would say a meagre so right from there, you can tell the gender that we're talking about and if it's a mixed group you say I mean us, it's the male within s, but it could incur both there's a movement now which wants to do away with that and put the letter e and it's a new word guy. It's urgent or neutral word. I mean yes totally new. I don't like that.

And I don't know anyone, no one in my family uses it, and I think it's kind of like a strange imposition from some one kind of wood with a solution in search of a problem. I've been told. you moved to the u s long ago and like your english is good and, like you look, why is it like you dont get away? And on that that I thought It is an example. If I understand correctly of the type of thing you're talking, I'm I'm kind of being I'm fine, I'm surviving fine, but I'm being bullied over it and disqualified and saying you don't get to speak on this issue? All of those example? All of that stuff I am completely against, and I tell people on the left were actually hurting our own movement with the stuff. I just don't think it's as big as some others believe it's

you don't think it's an existential threat to our civilisation in the west. There was no, I dont and- and I mean look, we ve gotta Biden administration. I see Biden a centre left. Those who see Biden as extreme far left this stuff has played almost no role whatsoever in the first two plus years of his administration, with his people to see him far left as far left. There's people on the right who I mean trump says in the us a marxist socialist communist, have I ever heard that because I don't think that would stick very much as he says it at every rally with a which allow pilots that you don't watch these things called deeply resource you are in trump. I can only imagine how good your trump impression is at this point. It's not very. Sadly, it's not it's not alright! No, but and and I'll say it another thing on the un that you know take trans because tramp just to talk about it. A little bit we have dealt with it,

the transit issue has become huge. I believe, because the right is obsessed with the right is very much not concerned with gay man anymore. It used to be that gay man is all we have to stop gay men from adopting an unnatural and pedophiles. Now it's trans, its drag, shows, etc. I do think that there is a fair question to say: how do we do with trans women in a very small short list of sports. That's real. My view, though, is I go. Ok, we have all issues. We have issues. Related to gender and sexual orientation. We have issues really. it's a trance within that we have specifically sport. You can eliminate from that Trans men nobody's worried right about women by law,

Google women who are transmits and then, when you say it's only in certain sports, that it matters. I am right there. I think it's a complicated question. I don't know how we deal with it. I would ask leagues that of experience with this already in whatever the problem I have is pretending that the the vanguard of left wing. Politics right now is trying to force trans women into sports. It's like it's just not the big issue that the right is reacting as if it were, but perhaps because of the rate it's forcing the left to to continue discussing it. I mean I, I feel like it even in institutions, even at universities. It feels like these ideas of diversity, inclusion and equity. Are in some of the air out of the room of volume

what a universe he should also care about which has merit. It feels like re prioritization,. is going a little too for the other way, meaning prioritizing. This kind of a more has caused the diversity is moving away, is giving power to people that don't care about merit and had just won a bully people with a big stick that says racism or sexism or anti diversity of, and it is a kind of suffocates, the people that care about merit above meritocracy about inspiring people from all kinds of backgrounds to succeed, and it's just the kind of observe that I'm sure that happens in all kinds of institutions and the

CERN. I think the people that are concerned about walker's m are concerned about at scale what impact does that have on a society when there's so much conversation about racism and a degree of oppression not to talk about merit like who's, the actual good person in the room, the yes person, the generically, that's a concern to me. The degree to which it's happening at for an institutions, I think, is worthy of exploration. I know people who work in academia that are getting out of academia because they don't like the environment on their campuses. For exactly that reason, you're saying so it exists. There is no question about it. I also think that the idea of a perfect meritocracy- isn't Is maybe not necessarily the goal in the sun that when you talk about perfect meritocracy,

someone wrote a book about this, who I interviewed about a year and a half ago and whose name escapes me there are problems with a perfect meritocracy. I think what we want to do is generate roughly equal and opportunity for people, understanding that there is going to be an outcome on a gradient or a bell curve, allowing people generally speaking today herman the path that they want to take and giving them if it's possible the ability to pursue that without suppressing limited, I mean this is like relatively uncontroversial stuff among, I would argue, ninety five percent of the left with the caveats of what you're talking about which I agree, exist here, be nice to know the actual data and those people, both stuff out of proportion, was with heart. It's hard to measure how much self censorship happens, a university campuses sauce, true, I think also it sort of like the pit bull bite stories thing where when a pit

bites a person, it's more likely to be reported on, because it fits a certain heard and there are right wing publications that are very interested in making. This seem as if it is an epidemic. I am the first to say: It is happening to a degree I dont know. Degree that it's happening too. I know a lot of people and academia. Only a couple of them say that it's an issue. Would they say it, though, if they believe the? I think they would say it to me, these are just personal contacts. It's not like I'm going to go blabbing to push back a, I kind of agree with you, but at the same time most I mean I'm deeply connected and academia have a huge number of collieries most people, Self sensor, by not thinking about her all the light was good. That's deeper. Whatever yeah I was gonna focused

The thing I love doing, which is the work and they don't think about it, basically remove themselves from politics and socialist and they just color, so I'm gonna do my junior. I will do my mathematics sure the problem with that is its kind of you can't go any Further to figure it out it sort of like there's. This fought funny, clipper, Jordan petersen says even atheists are actually religious. They just don't know it s like it's hard to test that you know I dunno yeah. Ok, I mean I don't I don't, but it's it's a fair point. I mean there may be some people if it has become so toxic for some people they may have ripped. That way down into their subconscious, but I do know how we would note by you you know symptoms of it because on certain people speak up kind of lightly, and then a nineteen year old or a twenty year old, a response and is outraged. the fact that the administration listens. That made and twenty year old and then a whoever spoke up a little bit

really dangerous sign to me and I really care about this, so I am more with you. I don't think it's a big issue, but then I notice it. I wonder when it with this kind of environment, allow a young known, chaskey tiburon, would environmental law. Like I dunno like a what tenuous designed for which is to have controversial thinkers and not gonna, weird controversial things, but really people to challenge things that should be challenged. Jim. I sympathise with that significantly, I always try to look at specific examples and sometimes look at feed people us I'll ask for them, and people will send me five and why, of them is a legit bona fide example of what we're talking about and for a kind of like there the complaint and it was investigated, but the teachers tenure was never in jeopardy. And I don't know that. I talk this up to a big woke event. What do you think,

the kind of apparatus of the four year degree in college is going to look like in twenty years. Oh that's I mean we're like day by day. That seems to be changing with g p t I dunno if you've gotten a chance track of chad, patapsco over my entire show, now is written by charging. And there's a if that's partially a joke, or it is only because it stopped looking at the internet at one in twenty twenty one. If it was current, I could completely just tune it out Now I'm kidding, but it's a fascinating tool and is changing the nature of how we do homework assignments is changing the nature of how we learn, how to look up new information. How we explore information, we care about things we're interested in. I think it. I I don't think we'll have them. Are you for university degree in twenty years? The way we do now? I just think it, changes everything I think language models, it goes

it has already had wikipedia, is already transformed outside our civilization by its there were still a value for basic education. I don't, I think that starts to dissipate, ah with which our jpg I, don't know. I really, I really don't think, there's a university the way we think of the universe in twenty twenty three years. I mean I have a personal interest in it in that my daughter's ten months old, I'm doing the five twenty nine account I'm going through the motions as if, but I asked recognize you now if she went to the schools I went to just with the rate of tuition, and please you're talking two hundred k a year by the time, she's eighteen and what happens with wages relative to that isn't like separate from the technological thing

and, in my mind, I'm thinking. Is this going to continue being the right path? What I would love to see is so many people that I interact with just by virtue of what I do have no foundation, in critical thinking, epistemology philosophy, media literacy and. if there were some way to make that the core of some basic education that everybody's receiving, which goes beyond you know, chat g p. T can do so many things, but I've not yet seen good examples of we can teach you to think. Maybe you have a different view on how chat gb t can teach a user to think, but those skills seem to be so lacking in so many of the people I interact with. If there is any positive change to come from a changing dynamic with higher education, I wish it would be to go in that direction Why no charge you produce actually much better help him. You think, then,

any educator, even books that have encountered, because it is very good at presenting the full pay even better than a lot of wikipedia articles. You know questions. I did that the virus lead from a lab. Did the coveney from lab is presents you all the different policies, the amount of evidence available to its ache? It's a fool com of jack to picture of it. There's no partisanship is like really nice list of things that available. But I guess what I mean is: does it tell you how, as a thinking human, You should evaluate the strength of each of the paragraphs, it

presents to you can literally ask you, can ask editor of Aragon in and then it's actually a fun, it's fun to ask charge a pity that question cause. You get good answers, and so you basically have a kind of socratic like a a deep intimate like great podcast style conversation with an ai system every single day for as many hours as you want as it, especially as it improves, as and as the interfaces by which you communicate with a thing improves so yeah. I think I think it will do exactly that, which is teach you how to think because you will offload the memory of facts and down equations and whatever else school teaches you you'll offload. That too, I am dad. You be using your human mind, which is what it for now. these least uniquely good out, which is asking questions thinking.

the complexities of issues with multiple perspectives on it all that. Well, then, I stand corrected. Maybe that then no, what college is gonna be in twenty years? Well, but you It's commenting it I see to the financial aspects of it like. Why does even make sense of this year? I am. What about the transformative effects of ai and what it is that starts to ask? What is the? What is even education right? What do you suppose? What is the purpose of education? So one has to give you a kind of a background, knowledge of and a bunch of different topics, but the others to discover the thing. You're, truly passionate about, and the thing you're really good at such that you can make money and you can contribute to society and have a filling wife yet really also learning to interact with other people without allowing ships or build socializing in so many other things as well, but is that that is the big value of university, and maybe she because something else

can you get that for less than two hundred k exactly I'll see. I know it's fairly wise to cut of social club, and you know one of the things I think about also is people who are Can I mean this is always been. This isn't new right, but if you're well connected- and you have a sort of drive towards japan or and doing your own thing and you not pursuing a field that is very licensing dependent like medicine or law. Getting start four years earlier with some internships. It can be a privilege in some cases, but again that that path is available to the people. That would likely do well, regardless of whether they went to college, and so it's a very privileged self selected group anyway. Another question from reddit. I asked David to explain why american style, libertarian madam, isn't on serious philosophy. I dont know what they mean by american style. Libertarianism. I've talked before about these kind of beauty.

being libertarians, where you know we have. We don't have police you just kind of lake higher for profit company. If you want protection and if there is a conflict between in two of these private security companies, then I dunno you figure it out somehow. So it's almost like anarchism to the degree that if by I, don't know what the question means by that american style. Liberty innocent, but in general, my problems with libertarianism, as it is often presented, come from the work of Oh as well as human psychology, which the reality that once you get a group, that's bigger than a hundred and fifty people, you really have to start centralizing some decisions unless you're gonna subdivide the one fifty

endlessly into two seventy five that now no longer of contact? But then that's not really one society? Now it's too, I have not seen good evidence, and I read a fair bit about this- that once you get beyond one fifty, you can keep all decisions decentralized and once you say some things need to be centralized. Then it's a matter of how you do it and it's going. Be some version of government that conflicts with aspects of libertarianism well, it could become When his right, it could be on, it can be more market driven, which is the idea of anarchism do you not you don't give any, centralized entity a monopoly over violence. you know, and if you think that the markets are efficient at delivering, especially in the twenty first century and beyond, where a market could have perfect. permission, while people so well. One of the issues that you can manipulate markets because it there's not perfect information, but now

digital age we can now look you'd, be higher ban with participants in the market. So, if you're choosing between if a security companies are you choosing between different providers, different services, they could do so more efficiently and more. actively and in a digital space, so you can kind of imagine it, but when the successfully done it with our governments gear- and I think there is a problem go once you get beyond one fifty. You also start specializing it. Just as a matter of fact, you don't have. Everybody is growing their own food, some people grow the food and other people do other things, and you come across a lot of the problems that started at the agricultural revolution and So you say that it's a company that solving it or a government, the problems going to be very similar, and I have not read anything that, to my satisfaction, explains how to deal with that

well there's underlying principles of libertinism, which is putting priority at the freedom of the individual and thus compelling notion Whenever I do these various political compass things that put you on to access on the authoritarian, libertarian axis I weigh down on the libertarian side as a left libertarian. So my ten and seas are always antaeus we're and an towards that option when it makes sense. So I sympathise without a lot another question from other as David what issues he disagrees with you on

is there saving right here? Okay, that's good! Hey there, you go, there's no issues, perfect agreement. What's your view on tesla, that's good opportunity to ask what do you think his strengths and weaknesses of elon musk? Are you mentioned twitter? Have you paid your eight dollars? I have not paid my dollars. I don't see the point in paying for it. I have no problem paying for services. I use kind of services, I'll try, the free I'll go to the paid right now. So the way I use to use the verified feed was, I would post between and then the next day, when I you know review, what's going on in my social media, I would look at the replies to the tweet, which give me a mix of replies from verified and unverified people. But then I also look at the verified and see who that are very fight public folks have responded to me. Your baby. I won, engage with that, but other case. Maybe there I don't even understand

Why? I would look at the verified feed anymore, so I never do because it's random folks who I dont know what it it sort of lost its utility to me an island s, eye to interrupt. But the idea is, if ever reduce human pays the eight dollars. It shows to you that, if not bots so these humans from the reports about the number of people that have bought the blue check mark, I think we may be a thousand. Years from enough sign ups. In order to make that sort of like a reality, I know that with those the ages, the idea, it's an interesting idea honestly for my experience, the Obviously I was seeing all sorts of attack comments, some of which were I'm sure from bought but I'm ignoring all of those comments anyway. So really didn't effect. Might my experience that much I mean here's the thing about IRAN and I say this people sometimes like David, you, you obviously you on, or you obviously love you. I was an invest, and ass the starting in twenty fifteen I've seen sold

My shares great run, I'm on my second tesla right now. I probably won't get a third one, because I think that electric vehicle technology is now maturing such that when my it is up. I'm gonna have many more options with the range and charging network that's important to me, but I could be wrong. Maybe you ought to know. I have no the culture, personality around people. They mean nothing to me. So for me, it's just like people or people nobody has only good ideas. Fine. I think that what you must it accelerating and pushing forward, battery and electric vehicle technology is unbelievable. It's it's! So it's a one person wrecking ball in the best sense of saying we're, not gonna slow play this and do ok now Toyota has curtailed, has actually entered, but now, however- we ve got a ninety mile range car and next year it will be one ten. It's just like we're doing right now you can compete or you can

doubt and look at what's happened, fantastic on the twitter side of things. I don't really get the whole plan. I don't know if it's started may be as kind of a goof of some kind and it developed into I guess I have to buy it and I think something about it ended up with. There was a clause invoked where I think he did I d get out of buying it, but then was worse due to some degree. I use forced the way twitter used to work. Was you followed people and when you look at your feed you either saw the posts from the people you are following in reverse, chronological order or post from the people. You followed algal, rhythmically, tailored to what your most likely to want to see and if you didn't follow someone you generally wouldn't see their post unless it was a sponsored, tweet or someone. You follow quoted a retweeted them by the four you feed, tik tok. I believe first had a so called for you feed. The idea is

This stuff you might like, based on I, don't know what either demographic data about you you're other habits whatever, and so it's useless to me it just it's just basically, mostly rightwing content that that is not interested in. That is, I mean the egg Zola, the signals that are used. Alright, the for you page is looking at all year, ah likes or your comments all year blocks in me, its and all that is show that I mean I don't know it's ok, so it supposed to be very pleasant for you. I am sure other people go while this, for you think, is awesome and I'll get like. If you had insert some right wing or sitting here, they would go twitter eustace press rightwing voices and now finally they're getting the fair shake that they deserve in the fur you feed. Ok, I mean, I wonder if there's left wing folks

as setting their feelings of a lot aside that are enjoying the for you page that that's a really important question, because it's supposed to be people left and people that I should be enjoined the. For you be sure yeah I mean so for me my thought, anneal on as some incredible successes. I don't know about twitter. I do think that I dont bother. Eve. You line is a right winger and when you see interviews with him, certainly at least so surely and in many ways, culturally, seems very moderator even somewhat on the left in my experience I think it's a deal on a right winger. I dont that the tunnel interesting critique it does, Seem, though, that throughout the twitter escapade he certainly ended up closer to some. voices that may be influencing him in a particular way debts giving some people that impression you now, but as far as like you hate or the you love it's just it's just a person has done some

trusting thing, some of which I like and some of which I could kind of leave. Leave aside, I have seen folks big drift towards the right more in response to just the viciousness of attacks from the left like I'll. I hear, and it also you do. You think he's drifted towards the right so. I dont they get the core, but I think on the surface, I think

and I think Joe rogan has as well on the surface cause. I think, maybe you can correct me, but it feels like people on the left attack more viciously, and that has not been my experience. What all nasa know this, because, as of yet that, let me know because my sense was that they attack people on the left viciously as well left a tactful, it's it's own, because you're not progressive enough you're, not the is just this kind of bullying. He was very intensely know you're, one hundred per cent right that when the left has attacked me, I it's almost as vicious as when the right attacks me. The difference in my experience is it's a smaller contingent on the left that is willing to levy those attacks against me, but I'm on the left. So to some degree you could say that that to be expected there is toxicity on the left, but it isn't

isn't it like? That's why I mean like the attacks on people who are in the left? You not left enough yeah! That's no debts I need a small number of people can't deny that that is absolutely absolute, a real phenomenon and it depending on what sort of topics you take on board luckily, you are going to suffer the wrath of that, both to a greater or lesser degree, but why all of these things would I always go back to. As you know, I probably would have more disagreements with rogan today than the last time I was on his show, which was like at the beginning of the pandemic, but there would be zero and I've done clips critical of things that he has said substantive, of course, to me it's sort of like oh yeah. I could sit down with him and do a podcast and it would be zero big deal, and I would tell him I stand by everything I said about what you said and I would say to you right now: there are people who write to me and go. Oh man, things must really really tense. Now, if you were to rogan, would never

have you on, because you disagreed and he loves you. I'm sure he's just not thinking of it. I'm not the most important thing to Joe rogan. I think both of us would be able to sit down and talk about every one of my criticisms. It would not be taken personally and then we would move on and it would be the next day you get attacked a lot. How do you know what that break you mentally? I don't know so. Let's see I try to. I mean I'm a toxic space. The news in politics, partisan, using politics, partisan, using politics on the internet, with a social media, can, isn't it just completely and totally toxic from a personal perspective, when I'm done producing my last show of the week until monday, I try to completely tune out from news and politics altogether and also make an effort to just not look at feedback and and What's going on, I also really limit my visit. My visibility, need to read every comment I dont need to

look at every email or every tweet. I fifteen minutes each day where I go through my social media platforms. Look at Finally, what is the reaction been? Maybe include that, in my assessment of how I want to tackle a certain issue, if I missed a good point or something like that and basically try to move on when something like we talked about at the beginning, happens it become, It's obsessive! I mean it's unhealthy right where I'm going. Oh, my god, who's attacking me now scrolling it it becomes. You know, I'm sweating, it's horrible, but I think just like limiting exposure to that and remembering that, it is impossible to please everybody, and so I'd really rather have fresh. Genuine views each day, rather than views that are sort of like restricted and flattened by when I perceived to be people's preferences. So just These people are more to the full process of treaty. Do bad, monsieur like when you wake up his you doing. Fine,

it shows a week. I have the letterman schedule, which means I do five shows in four days. I thought I shoot monday to thursday, but we're doing five episodes. Basically, our guests, we schedule in advance, I'm picking six to eight stories each day that are like, I said a blend of stuff, I think, will be interesting things. I want to talk about an things where there's its being discussed at one layer and I want to go deeper on it, man I feel like I'm able to do that. I choose the stories in the morning heard in the early afternoon, and we put the show out by that afternoon what inspiration. What's the take notes, Are you on a sheet of paper notions paper anymore. I used to do sheets of paper. I found something about it like it worked, attack tile nature of it. It became inconvenient, for sharing the notes with my team based

Actually we use a wiki type system. It's called media wiki, which is basically like wikipedia clone of school year old school. So we can have pages for every guy to every topic in this interesting. It doesn't hurt. Yet we ve- I don't know anyone else was using. It works, really. Well, it it's so fast and it takes up almost no space, so it just is a really good too. When my team, you know when we book a guest and they have notes from the publicist they'll put it in there and then I can access it. So I'm basically working off of notes rather than a script. and I'll pull any audio visual stuff that I want so that that's available and its mean. Is it really a very seamless sooner we're doing this every day for days a week, and so we have a down to a well oiled machine. Would you get ideas for every I have a bunch of sub read it follow that I think you're talking about interesting things. I have

rated list for which I still use twitter, and it is very good for this. It's a curated private list of journalists that I think are doing interesting work so I'll see. What's there, look at the standard news reporting, a wire services, AP and writers glance at what everything from drudge to see an end to who Ivar is covering that day. Look at google news, how you try to fact check stuff so I suggest or sisters are process. I always try to get to a primary source, first and foremost for the facts of the story.

then I'll use other tools for background research? Oftentimes Wikipedia is footnotes. I find to be useful tools. Chat. G, p t is a good one. It you really have to fact check it, but it'll give you ideas of where to do the fact checking, which I think is fantastic. Sometimes it gives me information that is flat out wrong and when you ask for the source, it's like oh yeah- that that actually is not real. which is hey, it's part part of the process yeah, but and then, when there's like an expertise, type of thing, if it's a breaking legal matter, I'll just call like a friend who's, a lawyer or call a friend who's a doctor or something like that or if it lends itself to that. Let me ask you about the nature of truth.

Do you think is becoming more and more difficult to know. It is true and will become continuously continue to get more difficult, especially jpg. I think the big difficulty is in getting people to agree as to what is a statement of fact and what is a statement of opinion? I think once we can do that reasonable people can moral Us agree on how to get to the truth or if we can't get to it at least figure out how we would if the information were available, but the at the bigger challenge I'm having. As someone will call in with an opinion but say they want to talk about facts, and I have explained to them you're talking about an opinion and not a fact- and this goes back to the lack of critical thinking and lack of media literacy. But that's the big

Challenge for me right now, but I think the big thing, though, is gonna, be somewhat opinions like I was. The luck was the toys re election. fair. I think any answer to that is an opinion. I disagree. If we define fair well, yes, so then I don't think it's possible to define fair in a way. That's not several paragraphs where each sentence is, now he has his facts. Re said he would he would he mean by fair? Is it who could show up to vote? What was the process of how easy it is to vote with their actual cheating going on indifferent to what is the evidence that gdp yet to actually get to the actual details.

I think, high level. You know everything is just going to be an opinion it feels like. I gave you and you can approximate that, like it's a well founded appear when most of the sizes and opinion even physics is an opinion so, like I think, there's a threshold in which an opinion becomes like a. This is a pretty reliable thing to assume for now that this is okay, so let me revise so I think maybe better said. I think that the difficulty I mean it is the process you described is probably the right process and as it's exhausting for monday, in things and that causes major problems. If we were to say, is it better for the economy to have a tax rate? on people making over a million dollars? That's twenty percent or fifty percent?

What do we mean by better for the economy? It's not an overwhelming task to decide on that. We could say well, we'll see is better for the economy by looking at what was the animal. rate based rate based on the tax rate. On million people are a million a year and what was BP and whatever ok, we ve, we ve agreed this the statement. We are now in the realm of just determining what is good when the parameters that we established, I think that's. That's relatively doable. The issue is with the bigger ones like You're talking about where what do we mean by a fair election and fair in whose eyes, and but I am with you- that it often devolves into a conversation about opinions about what sphere rather than an ascertainment of the facts. Just like maybe avoiding some of these big. Maybe this and trigger words too, be avoiding, then allows you to actually take what the facts and through that, educate yourself and learn about like

whether the variously from our lab or not. to me this is a super instinct, Actually I don't know why everybody got super touchy about it most of the people. I know her colleagues biologist thought it's pretty good likelihood that a leak from a lab given everything they just didn't. The evidence is not there for eight either one,

so like you should be able to just openly talk about it unless you're in the high political office, where that could be geopolitical consequences to your statements, but in general it's an interesting question. You should be able to talk about it, but there's no. First of all, just how many facts are on there. Unfortunately, I and a lot of very conclusive status about especially in the early days, were just opinions as a you have to the idea of what is true or not becomes a little even mentioning the word truth. In that context, it feels defensive yeah. I completely agree with you, which is strange, like really you think it shouldn't one of the really good one, in questions that I've had worked. My advantage, when talking with people who I know disagree with me about a contentious topic, is how do you think we could figure out ex and it often gets people thinking first collaboratively

and obviously we might have very different opinions, but with something like the covered lab leak. I think it's an interesting one, because if you say ok, maybe it league- maybe it didn't How would we figure that out? Who would be trust to way and on that? What evidence would count now we're kind of on the same team? and if we can establish that, then we're on a search for capital, t truth together with our it's kind of pie in the sky but in some conversations had actually had success with that need container realize it if there's no amount of evidence is gonna prove show to you that, you're wrong in your current opinion that that's probably bedside for you, it's a waste. It may be a waste to pursue the conversation further at that point. Younger you yeah would owe so. Ok, you think tromp was a good precedent for how do you do turn that and what evidence might exist. That would change your mind. There is no evidence, tromp was the best president. Ever I think the conversations pride on accept abraham

but you merchant, Israel, palestine, bore. What do you think about the situation in Israel? that is something you ve thought about spoken about for quite a time you think, will oversee peace in this part of the world. I don't know I mean it. I could say and how to say answer I could say yeah say I the will. You know one of the problems is and I'll give. You may not know that the there are people on the left of my audience, who call me Netanyahu she'll, even though I've never been a supporter of Netanyahu and I'm on the left. I just don't think that some of the kind of black and white characterizations about israel are even remotely accurate and I think most people it's become a sort of litmus test. Are you criticise?

Israel enough! Are you showing us that you're actually left wing? I don't do any of that stuff. I should really look at the situation, for what it is does become a litmus test in american politics and the spectrum of american politics. Yes, and my view big picture is that I don't, I think we're going to really get anywhere until some pre negotiated terms are set and the parties to do the negotiating are all good faith parties, for example. I dont think Israel's right wing party lee could is a particularly good faith arbiter of peace, because I think we could benefits from their not being peace and the threat of violence, and there is violence. It's not just the threat of violence. I dont think Hamas is going to be an arbiter of peace for the palestinian people either. I think the palestinian authority is a question mark, I'm not sure

so I think that there needs to be some pre conditions that would need to be set with regard to everything from settlements. To a lot of this minutiae, big picture, though, if I imagine what the most likely solution looks like it doesn't mean it's a perfect solution and obviously it's a solution. Many people will say it's not it's not going to happen. I think it's a solution where the borders are similar to what was being discussed in the Clinton era to some degree, as many of the settlements as possible have to go, understanding that some of the bigger ones are just not to go in. There is going to be meaningful land swaps with yacht, which yasser Arafat seem to be amenable to when waiting on it. I believe it was in the nineties. The topic of the temple mount and jerusalem etc, is a complicated one, but I think that almost certainly eastern The law is going to have to be part of an eventual palestinian.

stay in I mean like it. We can go a kind of his far as as we want to with a lot of stuff. When role does you s have to play in this coming to the table with good faith parties, I dont know whether the ego back and forth between believing that the? U s should play a big role to the? U s should play essentially no role whatsoever because, of course, of the funding of Israel that the? U s provides willed. You know it's not that I have a personal problem with american involvement, and somebody like bill Clinton was arguably relatively well positioned to try to make something happen. It's more just. Will there will it be seen as credible on the global stage and that's, I think, the most important thing, because at the end of whatever negotiation takes place, both sides need to agree that this is where we are renouncing all past claims and in the future. If there's a disagreement, we can't go back to that.

From the eighties or the nineties. That's just like a critical piece of this year has to be stable and you know materialise into something stable over years. Yes, their difficult time for going on in the world as the war in ukraine. Where do you think about it? russian invasion, ukraine, if every time I try to do, I don't pretend to be an expert on this issue. I think you probably know more about this than I do just from the reef conversation we had before we started filming my view as a general observer of geopolitics, in the way that this area, this part of the world, is related american presidents over the last. Several of you know, cycles is I dont think its controversial to say that this was a war of aggression.

an invasion of aggression and act of aggression by vladimir Putin. I do believe that if trump had been real, Did Putin may have seen himself of her as having other tools with which to try to expand influence that may have been different than geographical pursuits geographic pursuits, but I we don't know that. sure I also have a really hard time imagining what the end of this looks like and that's very scary, because sometimes the most benign and seems to be that Putin ends up of power either through no longer being alive or depose? in some way. It doesn't feel like that ladders

if likely the foreigner, there's reports about his health. I don't know how accurate they are. It's just hard to imagine a face, saving exit that is going to be and even remotely? What's the word, it's not even a question of acceptable just and it's not satisfying either. Just just not tragic, I guess is what I'm looking for in terms of putin speaking to the russian people and be able to figure out what to say what kind of narrative to say why this word made sense. Yes, the same in the ukrainian side, had to figure out how to exit this war. Yes, I mean to some degree it requires russian troops leaving ukraine, and that is somewhat under the control. I mean if, of course,

it's not up to ukraine whether the initiative continues, but what I m not thrilled with are some of the reflexive. You know if trump had been in power instead of Joe Biden, a lot of the reflexive comments about oh you're, if you If you say ukraine is just acting defensively, you're supporting neo nazis or some of these things that have come out of the american republican party seem both wacky and like they would be saying completely different things. If trump happened to be in the oval office, the really proxy attacks on Joe Biden yeah well that in some sense ukraine is also kind of political litmus test. Of how you speak about it, I think, because of the huge amount of funding this going off from u S to ukraine, Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me it seems to me that this topic has become politicized early hundred percent. There

people like marjorie taylor, green and others saying we should be doing nothing for ukraine. Zelensky is a comedian and we're supporting neo nazis. That's it full stop and you either subscribe to that or you don't and it very quickly becomes. It very quickly becomes as partisan of so many other issues, and it's really the most disappointing thing is that so of these issues become incredibly the devices the divisive but their simple like, for example, a conspiracy theory that we know is in truth, it shouldn't be devices divisive because it so simple, other issues become device and they are simplified, but in reality they are extraordinarily complex and you lose The ability to talk about the complexity, because their becoming partisan, how'd. You think there will always be war in the world as a bunch of folks in the subway. they were interested in you're different, complex perspectives in foreign policy it about war, but you'll get the war in ukraine.

you'll get was gonna going pastime doors across the world. Do you think that as before as a rapporteur put, it is a necessary evil in a game of geopolitics. I used to have what I now believe is exerting extremely naive perspective, which is that if we some how an intelligent aliens arrived here. It would be so momentous for homo sapiens. is that all of our differences would immediately be exposed to so insignificant. We would never fight again and we would realize that intelligent life, and then I spoke to people who deal in space exploration and other other scientists, and they all said that David, that's extraordinarily naive. There would be a period during which this was as momentous as you're imagining and then it would become normal and then would go back to many of the same conflicts that we have now sectarian, etc. If I think that in all likelihood,

there will always be conflict between factions, whether it's what we currently think of as war, probably not I mean it seems as though the tactics will evolve and it will be less about missiles and I dont know where it's going to go I don't know whether it's going to become more biological or cyber or certainly something we haven't even considered yet but Tom. I think will always be conflicts we would refer to in that way. Do you Charles ski, under his general harsh criticism of? U S, foreign policy in war, that many actions, military action the united states a criminal nature and those terrorist in nature. I m not it's been a decade or more. Since I've read any chomsky and I dont keep up with everything that he has recently said. So I don't want to miss character. I any of it in general, americans

And saw the view them, the good guys spreading freedom across the world and no chance could takes a perspective that yeah. They feel that under civilians you killed, while doing it is incomparable to any other military actions across the world right. So I very much disagree with those who take the view that the us is this wonderful global police force. That's spreading democracy and fixing problems very very much wrong. I think where I've had disagreements with chomsky in the past is more. He frame he seems to frame the u s as a uniquely bad act in some of these cases and I think it's more an out cropping of the size and wealth of the. U s and law

It's about uniquely negative intentions, and so I think that would be my general disagreement with Chomsky based on stuff. I read a decade ago where he says that he loves the united states, he's an american, and so he feels his focus of criticism should be in america I think that one of the great things about being an american and being in america is the freedom to criticise harshly show, Will we be yours? You, professor, better and he's been simply the environment away. Ten years are really valuable thing. I agree with you: drew him in that cushion from reddit asked David what he pass for his garden this year is this a joke or is on a job I got into gardening few years ago, honestly, but I'm with the baby. I can't do it in this year. It's too and I have a lot of travel coming up, so everything would die, but I did start to try to figure out guarding if you're stressed by the toxicity of the social media,

world. Gardening is a great hobby. It really is, but it is extraordinarily time consuming. So I have no garden planned this year. Their books are may be movies in your life. I had a big impact on you that you're here to get about that diet has, as I've been stuff. You read, forget it: but even just book said blogs, writers or just source of information in the head and moulded you into the intellectual into the political think there that you are it's so hard This is sort of like you know you in an oscar and you you want to make sure you thank all the right people I read so much and have been reading for so long that it's really hard to say, but I think certainly for me narrative nonfiction has been a fantastic job.

To learn not only about history, but also about people and psychology, and very often People say I don't really read like what can you, I commend to me that might be interesting or depending and you know knowing them to some degree I'll, give recommendations In terms of of just things, I picked up recently that it that I think are interesting, I've been reading a bunch annual postman. I read agenda O dell has a new book on time and the concept of life saving time spending, time etc. Should it just published it super interesting? I just read land sings book about the shackleton voyage in antarctica and nineteen, between fifteen and sixteen super interesting. I'm really all over the map on another book had been near me to listen to listen, it's very interesting.

And it seems inconceivable how these guys survived it incompletely inconceivable, and yet they did it kind of inspires you to think of space exploration and taken us in their kinds of. whiskey and dangerous journeys in narrative. Nonfiction agree with you very much. I've been reading a lot of twentieth century history, about Stalin and by hitler's rise and fall of the third reich. I've read twice now and I recommend people. What did you reading the second time. So. Would I, as a second time I have listened to the As I ran, I get the same thing from it. as I get maybe reading message for meaning, which is all the trouble. of day to day in the modern world kind of fade away and dissipate when I'm thinking about the

basically the embodiment of evil at scale. At that recent time in human history says it makes. You appreciate. Other fills me with gratitude to him. While the freedoms over just simple joys of life that we have today, and I think this at the time as I was reading it because Williams I was there he's the author user through the whole thing. You said to pick up a little details of the pacific. Big things to pick up the little works, How is she turns, and just like these little events, Oh you notice! If the dynamics between people

mean during a meeting with hitler. You just notice these little things that are mentioned because he was either there directly or herded the next day. So you get that's why to me. The rise and fall of the third reich is interesting, because it's by guy who's, there who's reporting on it versus a a sort of a a more distant display. I return and also biographies of beef ban if his hand down what isaac essential incredible as steve jobs and an or that conniston viktor Frankl book is one. I've read a bunch of times, and it's so short, and you don't reading in general. I know a lot of people who read way more than I do, and I also know a lot of people who don't read at all. I mean they haven't, read a book since since college, essentially to me it's almost like the amount I get from it. It's almost like a secret weapon where, when I think you know in two or three or four hundred pages,

which I can read in whatever ten days or, however long it takes reading thirty pages a day. The amount of information in sites into so many aspects of the human psyche that that I can get it sort of like it's not like I'm in a calm petition for anything in particular with anybody. I just do my show, but it sort of like If I'm reading dozens of books here and you're reading zero. I'm expose so many different things and ideas that are not even in your universe. It just seems like the power reading just seems overwhelming. does had speaking of getting a, I had a fun time getting attacked a few months ago for publishing. In this sense, we at least the book a week red eighteen, nineteen books from the beginning of the year attacked for the books you chose or for that an awful at all, but it got became quiet now, attack for reading,

that's that's something that is basically what happened is that people s? You don't need it There is now worth functional no know there are don't We, when data is the what I really loved about being attacked for it is, it shows you can get attacked for apparently so it's not like. I did something wrong is kind of a beautiful thing and it was just at the most intensely beautiful display of absurdity of twitter and the internet that there will be. There were articles written about me for the book list and there's no bad books at that thing. As being mocked for his reading, does the ascii reading stuff that sounds like a high school reading list? Oh I see or all the.

what kinds of aspects of the reading list, which doesn't stand up to any sort of legitimate kind of criticism, but the fact that people are just looking for single words, a single aspects of a tweet so on to criticize it actually force me to There is the video about in some areas, and I take a lesson from one of the books in it. Meetings do more and more but everytime I start to. Like I record it, I feel I have this negative feeling they kind of in the fund of sharing that I know exactly what you're talking about my advice on that is dont? Do it did just don't recorded and and is that, where you say yeah forgot, but I I think time cures it, but for now I decided not to guess it's just that until I until I feel joy when I do yeah we're in such a privileged position to even be able to do this sort of thing right,

I have taken on projects and then it sort of sounds good or I end up doing it because there's some third party. That brings the idea- and I feel, like I can't really say nor whatever and then when I get in, the camera or I have to write something for a while. I did it a newspaper column that I hated doing irene as the I'm, ruining the exact thing, I have worked to build, which is that I can just do whatever I want. Why am I doing this, and sometimes it takes me We can realize it. Sometimes it takes me here, but just don't do it that in this case in particular its also that there's a private thing I enjoy was reading bright. And if sharing that private thing you joy is no fun than just those shared that that some others the things the scent driving things that should remain private, that's like which is one of the first things ever, I'm I'm the same person proud of this. I am publicly, but the book

Alex's sake, man. I don't get to share. I guess, through these conversations I can share some of the stuff I'm reading and enjoying it cause it sucks it sucks to get attacked for stuff and it sucks to get attacked for stuff. You love yeah, especially reading I mean it, sir. You know that's the the bottom of the barrel. I have these ideas were I'll go you know, maybe, for my next thing, I'll go from politics, which is so toxic I'll, give it a try. we'll blogging cause. I I through so many travel bloggers. I follow and the so many interesting places, and then I go wait. A second I'd like travelling in just hanging out. Now traveling is going to be my job, and now I've got to bring two cameras with me and I've got to get shots and I've got to film my food and I'm not going to do that. it's going to do what I'm doing, but then I'll travel. When I want to take a vacation and of course some of it could be fun, I mean I, I have to say,

when I did the one video and a book and ninety four, I really enjoyed it- that the whole process was fun. It was then- and I don't think I've ever thought as hard about a book, but I had to make a video about it. yeah cause. That's like you know. I read nineteen four hundred how many times probably five ten times. I don't remember I am a way more, but I don't think I like what do I think of one of the key taken? for me. It I didn't really know like give. You asked me what I think about. Even animal farm I haven't done that yet, and I've read that one. I dunno for over fifty times it's probably my favorite book as a I would have to struggle. And in making a video about it, the biscuit at mini lecture yeah forced me to actually have an opinion about the details of it and to do enough research to think like okay. What does the historical context of this book? I mean it. It allowed me to say interesting and to think interests

stuff about the big I lose. I found it to be really rewarding to basically the old final thing. One of the best ways to learn is that each year I can't think one thing I would say about animal farm, and I read it again not that long ago, but I don't know, will come and you're gonna have a generic yeah like authoritarianism in san whenever yeah, but dick there could be interesting corks. The book in the characters the corruption happens? You good because they all kinds of stuff that may be contracting it in eighteen, eighty four allowed me to contrast, brave new world and and and how that nigeria forest politicized house he's better public control. We have today, guess you could say a lot interesting stuff like think about it and write it down or sheet of paper. Maybe you don't need to make a video about it, I found it to be really rewarding in genocide. Apparently, do

more than that always nazism professions is second to travel by. I agree with that. I mean you get. threatened. Allow you get the attacks in london. I do you think about your time. Well, The other day I went to the doktor, and he said you know next physical, we're gonna, be talking about a lot of new things. so I was thinking about it, a lot that data I mean it's funny I like by recently, did a bunch of estate stuff and when you have intellectual property, there is a question of lake. Ok, I have my assets also, if I died tomorrow, especially in a particularly fiery death. My to channel, would probably for awhile generate more money because their big, oh, my goodness, this person died in a terrible what happens with a future revenue stream in all these different things, and it got me thinking about legacy and about the fact that people who do this sort of thing, it's kind of a new thing innocence, and so you know

what could a b c news at some point you just retire and someone else fills in for you. How does my career wind down, given I'd like and actually know the answer, I'm not sure what is it. I just one day, stop posting videos, but all my content stays they getting fewer and fewer views, or do I delete everything? Do I I? I don't know what What is the guy? I mean the so you're my trip to ukraine, because I knew I was going to the front the first time I did record a video. If I die oh and I posted they give instructions to to folks what to do and so like there's a closure yeah. But it's an interesting process like what happens to your eye, at which point the you can t take over the continued tweeting for david path? A well the tweeting? I care less about right now, unless blue becomes something unbelievable and less wrote about twitter, but

some of my audience members have been saying you know some of these tools. David are getting good enough, that we could clone your voice and also make it match, video and with scripts. You could just keep pumping out content, even if you were gone- and I said now that I'm interested in that I want to learn more about Boys, it's going to be weird future. What would do you have two young folks? They are facing this feature. Almost Always it some version of start right away, and that applies in so many different ways. So, if you're thinking about the oftentimes. The contacts as people want to do what I do, and I always say do not sit around for a year. Thinking about lighting. This is, You never do anything and I dozens of people who I felt obligated to talk you on the phone because of a personal connection. I go through all the advice and I can tell they're not gonna. Do it they just there. It's

eddie sounding too complicated, and so instead they'll sort of say? Well, I gotta get the right lighting and the right room and bob the best thing you can do no matter what you're doing is just start right away, and that applies in this business and in whatever else you're doing. If you want to learn a new thing find a new hobby, the ability to get data right away about, what's working, what's not working and whether you even like this approach that you're taking is, valuable and it will allow you to iterate and the suit if you do it, the cost to a change of direction will also be lower. If there's any, I don't do like self help or generic advice type stuff, but the one thing that applies in so many situation is Situations is just try it right away and iterate from their yesterday and then do it every day. or decide hey. You know what I figured out. I don't actually wanted you yeah answer

yeah. I usually you discover you you do, you think, will make it out of the century. He nerdy he missiles is out of the city, like to twenty one hundred yeah, how much that got years? Yeah! Seventy seventh cir for her. They make you think so near one of the biggest threats facing our facing is now workers. I it's if it's not woke ism, it's hard to say how happy I am We think that if you believe that we are on an inflection point of sorts in changes, the society and acceleration of technology, etc. I think it's really tough to know in twenty ninety, what will actually be the biggest threat, so I dunno it's so cliche to say nuclear. and climate change and another pandemic technological will not look so different versions. Yes

with what it means to be human imaginable so the degrading make progress out into space is as imaginable. I think spaces super interesting and there's people on both the left and right who, for different reasons, kind of not into the whole space exploration thing. The people I hear from the ones on the right think it's just kind of dumb, the ones on the left, think it's an excuse not to fix problems here if you say why they say it's the plaything of billionaires sure, which is another funny kind of concept. Yeah I mean someone's gotta pay for it. by not be people who have a lot of money to take away their be berliners or governments their turn. The owners or somebody has to pay for big, ambitious moonshine projects. To me, the most interesting thing is that in getting closer, to the next step of space exploration. We may well learn things that can

and be used to improve circumstances here. For me not one or the other, and I recently read, and what long piece about why why not mars, because its terror in every way for supporting life. Okay, so, like that's one perspective, but still in so exploring, who knows what we might have, learning, so I'm I'm big on it. I don't share the view of some on the left about it. So I guess to add your advice, young people, if a thing seems terrible, you still might want to consider doing it. I would say south yeah. If have any things, if the I listen, there are so many trips where the day before I say why am I doing this, the jet lag. I've got to do this and that I'm now who, if my guest host falls through, I should just stay in work and I go hold on you. Do this every time yup just go ever regret it. You learn something you try something. I never regret the trip.

Does that hopefully applies the canvas issue had today did big fan of yours, thank you so much for talking today. Thank you, The impatient new china tat failure. Please continue when you're done, please continue being objective and thoughtful and fearless thanking the internet, big fan of yours as well. I appreciate it thanks for listening to this conversation, David packman, to support this podcast to check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from mahatma gandhi. What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless

whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or in the holy name of liberty or democracy. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.