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This is the lux friedman back ass in here is my conversation with robert crews was it a mistake for the united states to invade afghanistan. Ghana, two thousand two one twenty years ago. Yes, as simple as yes, why was it a mistake? I'm a story answer. I say this with some human worry about what we can do. I think I'd still like to know much more about what was going in the white house in the hours days weeks after nine eleven. I think.

the george w bush musician acted in a state of panic and I think they wanted to show a kind of toughness they wanted to show some kind of resolve near. This was a horrific act that played out you know on over everyone's television screens, and I think it was really a familiar crisis of legitimacy within the white house. Then the loss, nothing they felt like they had to do something. The dramatic I think they didn't really think through. You know who they are fighting yet who the enemy was, what this geography had to do with nine eleven. I didn't lean back at it. I mean some of us nuts, obviously a clairvoyant or cutscene, Your wedding think were here from that morning, sceptical about the connections of your drawing between Afghanistan as a state as a place, and near the actions of Al Qaeda in washington and the oregon and pennsylvania. So as you, The events of nine eleven, the things that our leaders were saying,

in the minutes, hours days weeks that followed We can give a little bit of a timeline and of what was being said. One was the actual invasion of afghanistan and also well. What were your feelings in the minutes weeks after nine eleven, I was in D c. I was you know on the way to american university or hearing on a br. What happened on, and I thought of the

the american embassy logo, which is red, white and blue. It's an eagle- and I thought you know washing- is under attack and symbols of american power are under attack and so on yeah. I was quite concerned and at the time lived just a few miles from the capital, and so me I I felt it was. It was real. So I appreciate the year that the sense of anxiety and fear and panic, and for two three years later in d c, we are constantly getting reports yeah, mostly rumors and unconfirmed, about all kinds of attacks that befall the city. So I definitely appreciate the sense of being under salt, but in watching television, including russian television a day cause, I just did justice outta satellite thanks. I was trying to watch world

doesn't get different points of view, and that was quite useful to have an alternative set of eyes in russian yeah and russian yeah. Okay, so the russians is, is good enough to understand russian television, the news yeah, the news and the visuals that were coming that were not shown on american television. I don't have they had there not filtering anything in the way that the major networks in a cable television we're doing here-

it was a very unvarnished view of the violence of of the moment in new york city. If people diving from the towers are being disputed, it was really didn't hold back an hour which is quite inner. Fascinating much of the world saw much more than actually the american public saw. But to your question, you know amid that feeling of imminent doom. I watch commentators such talk about Al Qaeda and then talk about afghanistan and when the experts was and was barnett Rubin, whose it in my use it. You know kind of long, very learned and afghanistan hand and he's brought on Peter jennings and a b c news to to kind of. Let us offer everyone and- and I thought yeah, he had fine job, but I think it. It was formative in submitting the view that somehow Al Qaeda was synonymous with the space afghanistan and I think again I was no Al Qaeda expert Ben and I'm not now, but I think my

it thought went to war and because my background had been with at that point, mostly afghans who had been displaced from decades of war, whom I encountered in uzbekistan, who are refugees on. I thought immediately media my mind went to the suffering of afghan people that this war was going to sweep sweep up, of course, the the beyond the defenseless people who have nothing to do with politics. So, as you give them a little bit of contact yeah, you can speak to you yet so assume nobody's an expert. If anything yeah, so, let's just say, you're a you and I are not expressing anything for what as a historian, were you studying at the time and thinking a bossy? I is it. Is it the full global history of afghanistan? Is it the region were you thinking about the mujahideen and AL qaeda and Taliban. We think about this the union, the proxy war throve afghanistan, were you thinking about

iraq and oil like what what's the full space of things in your heart. In your mind, at the time I just the woman, of course it was yeah, that's the sense of You know the suffering in the tragedy of the moment of what the das notwithstanding, I was practically by by the violence of the moment, but as the kurdish entered Afghanistan as a kind of theatre, desire responders moment. I think it may look into mine. Was that little That kind of the times suggested the the geography was was an accurate that this was a global network, a global threat that this is a kind of you know. A movement that went beyond

borders and I think the they fell early on that afghanistan was him. He uses as a scapegoat and is actually the time I was teaching at mercury see. My courses know touch on a range of subjects, but I was trying to complete a book on Islam and the russian empire actually, but in doing that, research which took me across russia and georgia purely by accident, I had to have an interest in afghanistan because I just began a series of coincidences. I found myself in tashkent. The capital was like done without housing through an american friend who is like the king of the market and tashkent. He knew everyone he run into some afghans. Merchants there they found out, I didn't, have a place to live. I didn't know where afghanistan was honestly. This is ninety. Ninety seven, I had a vague idea. It was next door. Will you lived in? Is pakistan really touching and doing doing decision research yeah, because it was your hub of the russian empire in central asia, yeah

this back to enable these young afghans who took me in resonates about adding that the sense of that community shape my idea of one of us- and this is my first budget to them. They are a part of it, a trading diaspora they brought, they had brought matches from rigour, latvia. They somehow brought hm flour, and so I called her products from from Egypt and they are sitting in enclosed containers and tashkent waiting for these, because I stayed permitted to trade.

so these guys are mostly hanging out during the day they'll get dressed up. They put on, suits and ties like you're wearing they polish their shoes. Then they were syrian officers, drink tea pistachios. Then they feast at lunch and at night we go out so part of my research, because I also had a bottleneck in my research. I was going to the set archives in tashkent and because of the state of who's. Next on. You know that was a very kind of suspicious thing to do so it took a while to get in so I had downtime and tashkent just like these guys so get the other pretty well and it was just to add an external kind of thing, but grew quite close to them and I do have an appreciation of and which now, I think again, to give the seeds of all this, and these people already lived young eyes you in the twenties, there are eleven six seven countries, they all spoke patterns languages,

one of my best friends. There had been a a kickboxer and break dancer trained in tehran. His father was a theater person and afghanistan, and he told stories of escaping death in afghanistan during the civil war. Go to pakistan escaping death there, and these were very- you- know real stories. Can you also just briefly mentioned yeah graphically speaking. Yes, Afghanistan is back extension jake, tajikistan, emission iran right What who are the neighbors of all of this? What what are we supposed to be thinking about for people? I was always terrible at geography and specialty

innovation? So can you lay it all an interpreter? So tashkent is the capital of pakistan. It was a hub of russian imperial power in the nineteenth century. The russians take the city from a local kind of muslim dynasty and eighty sixty five. It becomes the city that kind of hub of soviet power in central asia. After ninety seventeen it becomes the center of the soviet republic of Uzbekistan, which becomes independent, finally, nice. Anyone when soviet collapses, so that these are all like these republics- are the finger tipps of Soviet power is around central asia. That's right and they've been independent since ninety ninety one, but they have struggled to disentangle themselves from Moscow from one another, and now they face very serious pressure from china to form a kind of periphery of the great machine that is the chinese economy. In it's ambition

it's to stretch across asia and for afghanistan, where my roommates, my friends, hailed from and Afghanistan had fallen into civil war in late seventies when leftists try to seize power there in ninety? Seventy eight the soviet union then extended from his pakistan you're crossing the border with his forces and ninety seventy nine to try to shore up this. Let us government seize power in ninety seventy, eight and so for situations in the wider region, yeah their their fate had, for some decades been tied to Afghanistan and in a variety of ways, but it became much more connected and nineteen eighties when soviet red army occupied Afghanistan for ten years, and he are for your listeners and viewers to rambo three

is the guide to the historically accurate, accurate, the isolation of the bible of afghan history. Remember three year as as a fantastic window onto the american view, the war, but for us afghans, you know there are people who fought against the soviet army and but of assert generation, because I knew yeah, their mission was to survive, and so they fled in waves. You know by the millions to pakistan to IRAN. Some went north into so essential asia later that he nineties, and some are displaced across the planet, so California, we're sydney day has a large community that came in the eighties and nineties in the east bay kafka. Quick question is a little bit of a tangent. Yet what is the correct or the respectful way to pronounce of ganesh?

in Afghanistan. I ran IRAN, so as a russian speaker, Afghanistan or the on versus the end, Is it a different country by country as an english speaker in america, or is it pretentious and disrespectful to say afghanistan, or is it the opposite, respectful to say it that way? What what are your thoughts answer? The following question? I defer to the people from those countries to before sort out those politics I think in. I think one of the passing things about the region broadly, is that it is a place of so many cultures and and really quite cosmopolitan, setting lemme see quite forgetting about hazy. Afghanistan, constanta, like paris, at yeah, right of french, or not forgetting as I could not people are very, very forgiving, and I think that you know iran

or a bit you know more instructive and iran, rather than I ran right iraq, Iraq, I think this is. There, can be a fit between certain ways. Opponents in these places and The position that americans take about them right, sir, is more jarring. When people say I rack, and it comes with a claim that a certain kind of prison the victim of violence or write. A citizen is kind of like god. If I can buy the democratic party at the democratic party, it says sometimes using certain kind of terminal gi to make. little bit of sort implies statement about. You believe this fascinating. Yeah I'm getting my I Iraq and I ran me. I d get that intentional and the case of Democrat, or is it just a year?

So what are really again having monsieur on his afghans, people on earth have been very about that. What afghans? Now, I can say anything is fair to say I don't mean to speak for mean spirited group of retired people. I can just share with our our non afghan friends and the term afghan he is is a kind of term of offense, because that's the name of the currency, and so a lot of people ask. You know why, having associate in his mortgage and americans, because we've been so deeply involved in the country, obviously for the last twenty years right, so afghans ask why, after twenty years, he's still calling us the wrong name, What is the right name just somebody like they say before: afghans have guns and enough afghan ease, the name of the currency and sir. I just does the book

I was gonna, say yeah, I'm here yeah, it's really great to know yeah and it's in its again. I think, but I would emphasize that people are quite open and and it's a it's a whole region of incredible diversity and and respect for linguistic pluralism. Actually, so I think that yeah, but also appreciate that during it in this context and when there's a lot of pain You know in the afghan diaspora community, in particular you're being called the wrong name after twenty years when they already feel so betrayed at this moment. You know just how about if one follows us on social media, that is one kind of hotwire? Yes, the reason I ask about pronunciation is because the yes, it is true that there are certain things were miss pronounce kind of reveal that you don't care enough to pronounce correctly so I don't know enough to pronounce. Currently you dismiss the culture and the people which aid

I think that's rare, as per your writing is something that, if is okay, I'll, go with afghanistan doomed just because I'm used to a say, Iraq, IRAN, but as a against it is, it is as you doing again, writing suffers from suffers from much misunderstanding from the rest of the world, but back of bacchus discussion of uzbekistan, tajikistan, the whole region that gives us context for the events of nine eleven right. So you ever going day in the weeks that that followed, In my mind, went to the community I knew in tashkent and which isn't saying it was I mean they were so Islam was the focal point of our conversation in the? U s about

eleven right, everyone to know what relationship between this horrific violence and that religious tradition with it's. You know one billion plus followers across the globe right. That became the issue, of course, for iraq and syrian stations for your local state and police institutions. Right I mean it became the. I think it was the question that most americans had in their mind. So again I didn't imagine myself as someone who had all the answers of course, but given my background and

coming at this from russian history coming at this from studying, empire and trying to think about the region. Broadly yeah. I was very alarmed at the way that the competition went casting the question. What was your feeling on that morning of nine eleven? Who did this isn't? That is that unnatural feeling this is coupled with fear of what's next, especially when you're dressy, but also who is this, is this an accident? Is this a deliberate terrorist attack? Is this? mastic, while we're thoughts of the options in the internal ranking. Given here majorities rats buzz, I I was taken by the narrative it. This was international. I mean I I'd also lived in new york during one of the first bombings in ninety four of the world trade center, so it was a radical community had really fixed new york as part imagination of an eye

well, I thought it was a. It was a a kind of blow to american power and me I was drawn in by the symbolism of of it. You have to think of it as an act. It was kind of an act of speech if you will kind of a way of speaking to from a position of rather weakness speaking to a year at an imperial power, and that I saw I saw it as a kind of symbolic speech act of of that with reflect real world consequences for officers and victims for the firing of police and just to hear the horror of the moment, and so I added sita's is transcending the united states, but I did not see it as really having anything necessarily to do fundamentally about afghanistan, and the history of the region that I been studying in the community. What I knew who were optically religious right? There together hung out with actually wormy alex. They want to go out overnight.

The party tonight we're drinking yep. We we're discussions about ha, I mean Pakistan is famous for its drinking and striking it's assembling a look forward to, as I do want to travel to that part of it won't was the last time you were in that part of the world. The early two, thousands when in mid two thousand and twelve as your way so well by were drinking vodka. What was that? yeah me they have choice- is based on its corporate vodka. As as the on the choice. And I knew it informs units, but with a depressing thing, you and the students observing as a non muslim of a non russian amazon. You know culturally new to me, I'm interested in how about raising reticent demur.

if they're so you're like Jane goodall of vodka and russia, and it's rice, observing that's right, yeah yeah and then you you get the you get the summer gone. The grass vodka you get you know, have I've had some long nights on the kazakhstani frontier that I'm not proud of you know, but you have to know that people in some of them forefront, especially so that sort of thing I mean the the the passing thing there was it and just as a I mean the the whole,

MR wainwright, but there there are great concretions by you and partner at ivor Zhou who have gone across the planet and try to understand how muslims understand nutrition, a different contexts. So many respects will say you know, and this is what our national culture to drink and eat as we please right and yet I'm a very devout muslim and so before she can counter other muslim communities who won't touch alcohol right. But it's become kind of. I think it's very much and yes, every culture left a deep impression in each of these places, and so there are ways of thinking ways of performing ways of enjoying oneself that are shared across soviet and foreign. Having space to this day right and you re not about muslims in the soviet union- the threat that an article that there's a pale ass, I can read it. I really want to read it

parity in moscow and the mask or something like that? the way just another tangent tangier, as I borrow your books, love and bearing in mind that one of the reasons that bought them and read many parts is because their easy to buy unlike articles every single website has a pale sites is very aims, are very frustrating. to read brilliant colours such as yourself. I wish I wish yours, one fear could pay everywhere. I don't care what they feel right. Workers, It allows me to read some of your brilliant writing and I figure out here now. I think, moving towards more kind of open source for any stuff, I think, is A lot of journals are thinking about now, and I think it's definitely for the kind of democratization of knowledge and scholarship. That's definitely an important thing that we shall think about, and I think- and you know we need exert pressure on the

publishers to to do that. So this is what I'm doing here and I wish it was ass though so your thought was of ghana status. Not the get is not going to be the centre, the saddle worse it's not the center. This and invading a country isn't gonna fix is going to fix the you know, toxic maelstrom of politics that produced nine eleven right, get a signal us some, the personalities to think about going back to the touch historical and with me reserving no real muslims doing doing things and then asking questions about it in and try to understand did her eyes. What's tradition means of them, and then you have a we're whenever a narrow conversation about what is that is know, Jared imagery, exploded and on the day- and I love

right and then, of course, I think, the antipathy toward islam and muslims. It was the form by by racism, informed by xenophobia. So it became a perfect storm. I think of of demonization that didn't sit with fino, what I knew about tradition and with actual people that I'd known cause then going back to their other friends and encountered and saw him. But his quick thinking gus annan and touch her, for I mean just at the thought of my friends who had been who would suffer a great deal, Is your lives have been your cast aside from country to country but had found a place in tashkent with some raw ability and you know they want to go out every night and you know they explained. You know one friend when we talked

with the alcohol and he he didn't get crazy, but he was like you can drink, but just don't get drunk. That's that's permissible in islam, right and, and he used your ethnic pashtun. Ethnic uzbeks had a view. You know often the more vodka, the better you know, and it doesn't violate as I understand islam, so even yet it it's kind of a silly example, but it's just an illustration of the ways in which differ: communities, dem generations. Different people could comment at this break complex, rhetorician establishment ways so I'll see? If I would ask all you are in a kind of extra whenever you yeah, it's always disconcerting to see your photos, population be flattened right, and then be flattening, be turned to arguments for for violence mixed up with the natural human right feelings of

wait, yeah and it hurt depression and pain. So I you know I mean that they are a vivid lie. Remember I sat with other phd historians in different fields. We we, oddly enough, had lunch that day and they kind of deserted washington's place was open. We went and we thought you know. This is gonna kind of open up like a great mall of destruction, and you know the american state is going to. enjoy, and it's going to destroy in this geography, and I thought that was misplaced. For lotteries of reasons and of ink, if one yeah I'd. Been doing some research on Afghanistan, then can shifted south, and I

been looking at the taleban and from afar for some years and yeah. I think it's clear now that, in respect there were opportunities for alternative policies at that moment. So what should the conversation have been like? What should we have done differently? Because you know from a perspective of the time the united states was invaded by a foreign force. What is the proper response or the? What is the proper conversation by the Barbara bray? The only thing me I know my colleague at Sanford conley's arise with tommy. This is above my pay grade, and you know she makes a point in your closet. Talk about how difficult decision making is under such intense pressure- and I appreciate that- and you know I

am australian who sits safely my office. Unlike battlefields, I don't like taking risks, and so I concede all those limits. You're, not a nato expert. I've been accused of being a spy wherever I began, because the way I look and because my nationality, and so on, but not a spy, so I defer yeah. I respect the expertise of of all those communities, but I think they acted out of ignorance. They acted. I think, because I mean you'd, think of the in a way there was a compensatory aspect of the decision. Making I mean the bush administration failed This is an historic failure right. So if we starch way, if we're going back down the failure of intelligence, I mean have a. If you follow the story, richard Clarke and who's rich o'clock, he was a national security expert who was tasked with following Al Qaeda, who had produced the dossier under the Clinton illustration that he passed on to you, the george w bush administration and

look at the work of countless rice, she met a very famous, adding unpaid walled foreign affairs article that you read announcing de georgia, be bush for policy. look in. It was all about great powers is about. The rise of china is about russia, I mean, is definitely a kind of hangover of those you missed having russia, as the book The man who spoke he had the Clinton's vision repeated again again. The idea of making sure the bear stayed in his cage, which is why the united states threw a lifeline to the central asian states hoping to have pipelines hoping to shore up their national sovereignty as a way of containing russia initially, but also IRAN, which sits to the south and west and then briefly, looking on the road to china to the east. So the bear is white. Like

Russia oars is the kind of like some. you're combination, russia, iran and china have about the bears, russia and and russia is this, and perhaps I'm trying to characterize the imagination of some of these actuary figures and there's an image formed in the cold war, and it has deeper seeds in european and western intellectual thought that go back at least to the eighteen fifties and the reign of tsar Nicholas the first. When we first get this language about and the russian empire this kind of evil polity Obviously this was a kind of pillar of reaganism, but the Clinton folks kept that allow alive. They want to make sure that you are making power, be unmatched, an aid being creatures of covert himself. They look to russia as a recession. Power well before Putin was

Even thought of me, this is imagine one deep, profound, historical peace and rambo is probably this, This conflict has to do with another philosopher movie, iraqi, for which is also historically accurate and race that india is basically a documentary, so I buried. There is something about the american power even at the level of congolese arise. These respected deep color via leaders and thinkers about history in the future, were they like to have competition with other superpowers and almost a conjure up superpowers, even when those countries on maybe at time at least deserve the label. Superpower. That's right! Good point! Yeah they're all allowed some points, so yeah. I mean russia was, I think many many experts me my my mentor at Pinson and stephen kotkin. You know

was then writing great things about how you know if you'll get russia's economy the scale of it's gdp, it's capacity to actually act globally, it's all quite limited, but condi rice and the people around her you know came into power with george w bush. Thinking that you know the foreign policy challenges of her era would be the those of the past right, but you clark and others within demonstration- warn that the factories this group, that has declared war against the states and they are coming for us, the api. I had been following people around for many months so yeah by the time georgia b, which comes to power, lots of Al Qaeda activists or will not last but a perhaps a dozen or so

we are already your training in the united states right and what we knew immediately from the biographies of some of the characters of the attackers of nine eleven. There was a hodgepodge of people from across the planet, but most of their saudi right, and that was known rarely on or or presumed barrel on. So again, if we go back to your question about the geography, why afghanistan it it didn't add up right, it seemed to me that afghanistan was a kind of soft target. It was a place to have explosions. To seemingly recapture american supremacy and also, I think, the others in many quarters, there was a a deep urge for revenge, and this was the place to maximum casualties, have some explosions and then I think you know, restore the legitimacy of the bush administration showing that we are in charge will pay. I think that was very old fashion punitive dimension, which rest upon the presumption that, if we intimidate these people they'll know not to try this again right. All these are gestural.

Miss readings of that of an obsession that was always global. It had no real center and he called us of the center as one way to to translate AL qaeda, but that center was really an imagination and bin laden bounced around from country to country and and crucially, I think at a dimension that I don't claim to know anything new about, but his endured as a kind of doubt, Israel, saudi Arabia and the fact that he had the muscle and that operation and Levin was without a right. I mean this is a sorry operation with if things are in despair, on the basis of nationalities, saudis and egyptian, or to a lebanese guy and the egyptian guy I had been studying in germany, he was an urban planner right. So if one thinks of the imagination of this I mean, in fact, if you look at the the kind of topology of the figures who have led this radical movement, I mean you think of the the global jihad us they are mostly not

if the scholars might blonde was not a religious scholar and his training was an engineer. Yet some biographers claimed that he was a playboy for much of his youth, but really that that the these ideas, I think, that's probably why they chose the twin towers mean this is a jason feel by training and engineering. I mean a lot over the sociology few do kind of poverty. If a lot of these leading jihadis their backgrounds or not. in his own scholarship, but actually engineering and kind of practical sizes and infections, medical doctors or are among the ranks and so it has long been a tension between islamic scholars. devote their whole lives to study of tax and commentary and interpretation and in Some scholars call of new intellectuals, new muslim authorities who actually have secular university educations.

Often in the natural sciences, are engineering and technical fields who then bring that kind of mindset. If you will to what mrs cars called the religious sciences, which you're a field of kind of ambiguity, end of quotation and of subtlety and new ones, and really I've decades of change before one becomes authoritative to speak about issues like whether or not it's legitimate to take someone's life. Were the relation to Afghanistan who has been launched. one was a a visitor and if you look at his whole life course, part of it is an enigma. So you know he is from a saudi elite

we but a family that kind of has a a yemeni arabian sea kind of genealogy. So the family has no relationship to Afghanistan past or present, except it's important that in the eighties, when he went like thousands of other young saudis, It's the first of pakistan to places like the shower on the border where they wanted to aid the jihad in some capacity and for the most part, the arabs, who went open up hospitals. Some open up schools, the ban on family had long been based in engineering. Construction sets thought that he used some of those skills and resources in connections to build things.

yeah. We have images of him firing a gun for show right, it's not clear that he ever actually fired a gun in what we call combat and again I could be corrected by this and I think either keep their competing accounts of who was so he's kind of a mini mini's figures that he who sit at the pinnacle of his world are, you know, fictive hero, Is that people your map, their aspirations onto right? So people like mullah omar, who was then head of the taliban, was rarely seen in public. The current head Helen is almost never seen in public. I mean this kind of studied air of mystery that they have cultivated to make themselves available for all kinds of fantasies right. Do you think he believed so his religion? beliefs. Do you think he believed some of the more extreme things they enable him to commit terrorist acts,

maybe put another way. What, Some man want to become a terrorist and what aspect of bin laden made him want to be at their right. I'm going over to oscillations hiding yeah. There are others who know more about bin laden and have bomber expertise in Al Qaeda, so I'm coming to us in an adjacent way kind of from Afghanistan and from my soccer training. So this is my two cents, so yeah bear with me and I don't have the authoritative a couch, because in itself is fascinating, because your history afghanistan and the fact that bin laden isn't a huge part of your focus. A study just mean The law is not a key part of the history of Ghana said except that america made him a key part of the history of. I would endorse the governance at me You put it in a very piti Piti way. Yes, I wasn't he was. He was a

So he's engineer, you said to be a play boy: he spent a cash from his family. You're like many young saudis and from some other countries. He was inspired by this idea that those jihad in Afghanistan it was going to take down one of the two superpowers. The soviet union, who you know the red army, did murder hundreds of thousands, perhaps as many as two million and afghan civilians during outcomes. It is very you know the plausible and very you know completely understandable that many young people would see that cause, as you know, the righteous pious fighters for jihad who call themselves mujahideen arrayed against this evil empire right of a godless soviet

empire that doesn't give you what with soviets wanted? May not now we know much more about like what the kremlin wanted, what what version of wanted and how the soviet elite thought about it, because we have many more their records, but for the outside. For Jimmy carter, and if Reagan it looked like, the soviets are making a move on on south asia because they wanted get to the warm water ports which russians always wants puzzling, I of a move. Big over our oil and yo to assert world domination might so their lots ways in which this look like good residual in congress. It look like you no kind of vietnam again, but this time it. This is our chance to get them and their lots of great quotes mean disturbing, but really really quotes that america pacemakers made about to give the soviets their vietnam, so the cia

funnel your hundreds of hours into this project up tobacco mujahedeen. You know who reagan called freedom fighters as a villain was part of that universe. He's part of that now he's swimming in the ocean of these afghan mujahideen, who out of size, know that did ninety five percent, the fighting they're, the ones who died they're, the ones who defeated the army right The arabs, who were there did a little fighting a lot of it was for their purposes. It was to get experience. It was to kind of create their reputations, like bin laden began to force himself of being spokesman for a global project. Because by early eighties when belong yet it was, was more active and began conspiring with people from other countries. That is, it.

Even gorbachev came to power. Eighty five he's like let's get out of here. This is this is draining the soviet budget. It's embarrassment. We didn't think about this properly. Let's focus on restoring the party and strengthen soviet union. Let's get out of his cassie war. It's it's a waste and it's worth it where you don't lose anything by getting out of afghanistan and is about their retreat, was quite effective, unsuccessful from the social point of view. Right but we see now are we here was the retreat it began to become ever tough can punish any five he was a generation younger than delegates. He was a critic of the system. He didn't want to bullshit. He wanted to reform it. He was a true believer in in soviet socialism and in the end, the party as her at yep, a monopolist writing and but he's critical of the old guard and recognized that the party had to change. And

those system how to change to continue to compete, and so Afghanistan was one element of this, and so he pushed the afghan leads. The moscow is backing to basically say listen more to share power, and so I figured named who was so soviet trained intelligence, specialist sitting in kabul, a great and he sent you need to have a more kind of pluralistic accommodation approach to our enemies who are backed by the? U s, merely sitting in pakistan, saving your on likewise, arabs who degree getting wet from saudi and

is less draw, send them into the government and basically have a kind of unity government that would make some space the opposition and, for the most part, with us backing with pakistani backing with irani backing you with saudi backing. The opposition said no we're not going to reconcile we're going to push you off the cliff, and so that story goes on from at least the in eighty seven, the last soviet red army troops, leave early nineteen, eighty nine, but the naji below of government holds on for three more years. It is the I mean they're still getting some help from the soviet union. Its enemies are still getting help from the: u s mainly and such ninety ninety two that that that they lose an emerging without income. The power they merely their deeply fractured,

and where bin laden is watching. All of this unroll. That's right and he's he's part of the mix, but he's also mobile. So he go. He at one point you know goes and is in sudan he's he's moving from place to place. his people are all over the world. In fact they I mean, if you think of the once the mujahideen take power yeah. They they have difficulties with arab fighters too, and they don't want them coming in and messing with. The junior mujahideen regard this. As I know, this is an afghan national state that we're going to build it's going to be islamic, it's gonna be islamic state, but you can't interfere with us, and so there are always tensions, and so the arabs are always kind of I'd say they were. Their fighters were always interlopers and, yes, the africans are happy, take their money, send patients their hospitals and

take their weapons, but they're never going to. Let us be like a saudi or egyptian or or whatever project, and but in many of those fighters when home they were about to Syria. They were about to Egypt. Some wanted to go back to the saudi arabia. With the saudis. Very careful I mean the saudis always used Afghanistan as a kind of safety valve. In fact they had fundraisers on tv they chartered jets. I filled them with people to fly to pakistan and get out of the shower and say you know, go fight in. It was one way that the the monarchy, saudi monarchy and very cleverly, I think, created a kind of escape valve for would be dissidents in saudi arabia. By just send them abroad, you want to fight jihad, go to that somewhere stone, dubai, the kingdom but always became dice here

in the early nineties, when some of the guys came back home and some of the scholars around them said you know, let's we've defeat, the soviet union was a huge huge boost. I think part of the dynamite we see today is that the taliban victory is a renewed inspiration for people who think look we beat the soviets now will be. The americans are already watching the soviet retreat across this bridge. It is based on. If you see this driving images of it, the tanks you're moving. What do you want her to? This is, like you know, we're going to change the world and now return to the americans and our our local national governments are backed by the americans. So, let's start with a third of those places and then let's go strike. Let's go strike. You know the belly of the beast which, is america, which is new york and going back to milan. Your question about you know: what motivates him what motivated him? He again he was not a rigorously trained islamic scholar and that I think you know what I mean this.

In classes yeah, I think those young people, I mean people who were born on eleven. I mean they're they're shocked that they see they see his appearance. They see him pictured in front of a a giant bookshelf of arabic books he's got the kalashnikov. He's got what looks like a religious scholars library behind him right. But if you look at his words, I mean one fascinating about just our politics and just wanting to kind of some loss of I mean the fact that, on nine eleven we had to have a few people.

A few experts be like Barnett Rubin, who was afghanistan expert. So that was one way which I think you know. I'm not faulting him personally, but it is one way in which that relationship appeared to be. You know formed right of linking afghanistan to that moment and if one looks actually yeah what belonged saying and doing people like richard clock resetting this, there were arab leaders. The arab press was there with watching this because he gave some his first interviews to a few arab newspaper outlets, but speaking of our american carolina monolinguals on a lot of what you're saying wasn't known as an anchor for several years his people weren't reading, what bin laden said. I mean experts are reading reading in arabic, but there was great anxiety around transit in his works. So yeah we have my conf. We have also suffered by bloody wars have lent mile. What have you want in whatever language you want? Babylon was taboo for making. Fishing, and so it was only a virtue-

UK, the published of famous, I called message to the world, which is the first communion I love of bananas writings, so he has a mein kampf. He has a does he ever thing where the collected works of the collected works of his he had ear or like a like, a blog if this is a collection of articles versus yeah. These are interviews. These are his his missives, his his decorations, his and his decrees right. It would, but I think just in terms of, if feasible, for a second about american policy choices and so on. The powers that be

interest us to know what he was all about. I put it that way and I don't say that in a conspiratorial sense, I just think that it was. It was a taboo, I think people. You know there were those kind of consensus that do yeah trust us. We know we know how to play Al Qaeda and you don't need to know what they're about, because they are they're, crazy, they're, they're fanatics, they're fundamentalists. They hate us, remember that language, it's us vs them, but if you read bin laden, that's when it gets messy. That's rare.

The laden augmentation is not fundamentally about islam, and if you are sitting here with islamic scholar, he would say yeah you're twenty one, which is the only scholar they attend to go through and dissect and negate. Yet ninety nine percent of the arguments that belonged claimed was in Islam right. But what strikes me as an historian whose again leave this adjacent lie and the three bin laden I mean argosy, make our prisoners sophisticated. They reflect a a mind that is about geopolitics. He is,

terms like imperialism. He knows something about world history. He knows something about geography, so imperialism is the enemy from a what's the nature of the end. It's a it's a it's an amalgam and he like a good politician, which is what I would call him. He is adept at speaking in different ways to different audiences. So if you look at the context which he speaks, if you look at

It's just the world. If you look at his writings and it you zoom out an hour, and we now have compendia of the writings of Al Qaeda. More broadly, you can purchase these. You know they're, basically primary source collections, and we now have that for the taliban. I mean what's fascinating about. I think, if you liked this culture, acknowledging it's very you know, diverse internally, is that these people are representatives of political movements who seek followers. They speak. They often are very I'd, say skilled at at visual imagery and especially not mean we're testing is it. I mean the taleban used to shoot teller, since they used to you, know blow up a vcr and he videotapes and they used to string audio video cassettes from

trees and kind of ceremonial hangings righted were were killing this nefarious infidel technology, that is democracy and yet today, unless coming want to keep the tobin tax, as is that they are really good at using media. at using the the written word. The spoken word music actually and- and you know, hollywood hollywood is the gold standard, and these guys have studied how to create drama, how to speak to modern users I mean islamic stated this. I mean the thrall of media new media, I mean I am. I follow, I'm followed by senior tabar metres, which is bizarre on twitter. Or I dunno- why they care about me. Am I am I'm nothing? They fought their fault, they follow you on twitter. I dunno why this is no joke, there's no joke! So it's they are part of our modern world so they talking so they recruit, and this is part of this is why they are yet so so, but not enough.

None he he speaks both languages. I would say it's it's environmentalism, yet the west is bad because we destroyed the planet. The west is bad because we abuse women so in in class. You know, especially you know. Female students are very surprised to learn and actually say yeah this. This This argument is not you, we start with you. This is a murder. Is the person who has taken human life as a life of never again, and he is you know, aspirational genocidal, but let's try to understand what it's about so we walked to the tag. Freedom and people are shocked to learn it s not just about you know, criticism the koran strung together in some irrational fashion. He knows I mean at the core I'd say, is the problem of human suffering and he has a geography of that. That is mostly muslim, but he talked about the suffering of cashmere. I said if you have a student, your class is from south asia

about cashmere. You know he or she will say that's not entirely inaccurate. You know the indian state we commit atrocities in kashmir. Army of pakistanis have not to you know. Palestine is an issue right, so you have the american university setting people across the spectrum. Who get that you know. Palestinians have had a raw deal, and so it's a victimhood is essential and it's muslim victimhood, which is primary but as number of hours of every and I'm had I definitely. This is a a framework forth. As usual, I mean in this kind of vocabulary in the saint, in this framing this narrative and today in today's world. If we look at today's world being post cold war, ninety one the present looking at the sir

gulf wars and seeing the visuals of that. I think that you know the the american public's windshield if it's on us, but if you look at just the the carnage of the iraqi army that george w bush produced right. Are you thinking fear that the images of the suffering of iraqi children under george w with sanctions us british airstrikes. Then you have madeleine albright. Answer a question on sixty minutes thing: do you think you're the deaths of half a million iraqi kids is is worth it. He has justified to contain some hussein and she says on camera. Yes, that is it's worth it to me. If you put that altogether, I mean american kids and, of course, american public they're, not always aware of those as facts of global history, but these guys are in a they very capable,

I use these images, use these tropes and use facts. I mean the fact that says things are are not are not, and I will I mean the the omnis estimates about the number of iraqi civilian children dead. You know that that came from, I think the lancet and it came from it. Other other estimates, but looking at the point of view of a man of you know, java of Nairobi think on the planet, if you see yourself as the victim of this great imperial power yeah. You see why special young men would be drawn to. road of of of self sacrifice and the ideas it in and killing others. You are making them

I feel how you feel, because they won't listen to your arguments recently, because they won't in a recognized palestinian suffering, bosnian suffering, right, chechen suffering. You go across the planet right because they don't organize our suffering. We're going to speak to you in the only language you understand and as violence and look at the violence of of the post much anyone world right in which american air power really becomes a global you know, we kind of fact and eliza sending people and, and then the big mistake after nine eleven among many I mean family was taking the war on terror. To some, you know thirty or forty countries right so that he that more and more of the globe feel like they're under attack. Right in the in the logic. Is that essentially it's not it's. Not three bin laden is not we're going to

convert you and turn you into muslims and that's why we're doing this that that appears. That claim does appear at times. But it's if you look at any given bin laden text, I mean there are forty claims in each text and it's kind of it's dizzying, but he's a modern politician, he knows language of of social equality, yet it was their class. Into it. There is an environmental dimension to it. There's a gender dimension to it, and yes, there are chronic quote: smuggled in and when he wants to speak that language. He knew that you know he's not a scholar, so he would often get a few recognized scholars to sign on so some his decorations of jihad had his signature kind of sprinkled in

like a dozen other other finishers from people who are somewhat known, or at least yet with titles right and so as a kind of intellectual exercise. It's fascinating to see that he's, throwing everything at the wall in one level and that's when we see that it's a it's a these are kind of testaments toward recruitment of people who yes, they're, angry yes, they're unhappy is what I think for our broader public. It's hard to get you like well, but london suffered He wasn't bore, but yeah mean linen pull pot. I mean, there's speaking to europe, a letter to the suffering, the landscape, the full ass gave a summer. It's interesting it do you think about suffering in america the american public mecca politicians and leaders. They see what is good and evil. There, often not empathetic, to the suffering of others and

Well, you're, saying has been lawn, perhaps accurately could speak to the ignorance of america. Maybe the soviet union, the suffer if there are people, that's right- and I mean if you look at the speeches and the ideas are public of hitler in the nineteen thirties. He spoke quite accurately to the injustice and may be the suffering of the german people. As he mean charismatic. Politicians are good at telling accurate stories, it's not all fabricated, but they emphasize certain aspects.

then. The problem part is the actions ye should take based at that time, that right front, so that this, the narrative in the stories may be ground in a historical accuracy front. The actions then cross the line. Now, though, I think a liner, I thought I told you it's because you pick up this one is taxed me, it's a cottage scope, so the cologne algiers and shame because it's your hitler spoke too big to things like inflation. Which really existed, but he also appealed to the irrational emotions of germans right. He sought out scapegoats mere jews, roma disabled people on sexual, so on right, That's also their belong to mean that if you re an anti semitism because of flagging of out and crusaders, it's got shot gun approach to.

a search for followers, but I also hasten to add that it's for all of the things that we could tick off, saying well, yes, kashmiris have suffered, chechens have suffered, and so on been bin laden, became a mass movement, It never really. I think the I is the incursion thing right about ideology and I think the the blood on his hands always limited his appeal on muslim others do but but landed. Have I mean he added? Does it? Does a great book by a great scholar at it you see synagogue and Jimmy pretzel, who read a great book about global icons in which he has bin laden. He has a bob marley he has to pack. He ask why

Yeah, when using research in east africa, why did he see young kids wearing bin laden, shirts they're, also wearing, like tupac shirts, they're wearing been bought, molly, shirts and faces way of looking at and a kind of partial embrace of some aspects of the rebelliousness of some of these figures? Some of the time some people under certain conditions, where the terrified thank you miss the others, the longing in the human heart to belong to a group and a charismatic leader somehow for showing your young just a catalyst, follow that in I tend to think that perhaps this actually hard to be hitler

so a leader so charismatic that he can rollin nation to to war and bin laden. Perhaps we're lucky was not sufficiently charismatic. I I feel like if his writing was better. If his speeches were butter, if his ideas were stronger, Better? I take more viral and then there would be more people kind of farm. yeah young people uniting around him. So in some sense it's almost like accidents of history, of just how much charisma, how much charisma particular evil person has or something like bin laden, agates fear he will he will. He will works of ink. You think bin laden is evil. Oh yeah yeah he was a a mass murderer and I'm just saying that his ideas were there more complex than than we've tended to acknowledge and they had they have a wider potential residence. Then we have the knowledge I mean

I guess, but I'm just one final point is that I'm thinking about the collective in london is also a way of removing from Islam, and he is not I think you're. He is a cosmopolitan thinker who. Plays and all kinds of modern ideologies which have proven to mobilise people in the past right. Sir, do your anti semitism populism, environmentalism and negative in at the urging to like you know, do something about humanity. Do something about suffering! That's why I think the actual yes about, like what motivates people. This has everything. That's why if one goes below the level of leadership- and this is being reported, if you look at the trial, on going out in paris of the butter clan murders of ink, the court allowed some discussion of the background of the accused and they come from.

Backgrounds, but if there's any common bond is kind of a baby as a background in petty crime, fiercely in the seven seven bombings in london, the metropolitan police, the uk authorities looked at all those guys and what people want is this idea that, like they must be very pious, they must be a super islamic to do this kind of stuff. They must be fanatical, true believers, but But if I were those guys was it somewhere, normally muslim, some went a mosque, some didn, some were single young guys with light backgrounds some right. Sorry, they were you gonna misfits who never succeed in eating up. Let me up at had a wife, a family if he knew know widowed and orphaned. So there's no, I mean policing. I mean if you're looking at it through, that lens is no kind of technology that will predict

who will become violent. That's writing. We have. movie on thinking about really, irritation, narrowly or myself and think about things, about thing about how people respond to inequality, either the extra threat of of cry of a climate crisis of all his matters of and and think about, it is a mode of political contestation means, if I didn't want it, when I condemn it, it is evil right, but these are people other they're, trying to be political they're, trying to change things in some way. is not merely about like honour imposed, three law on you. You must wear avail. You must eat is kind of food. It's it's not that parochial. But what one another quick thought about your european claim about christmas. I think that the oneself limiting feature of this sucker

is that definitely may I mention the enigma of of not wanting to be seen and that that they're kind of invisibility is a productive force of a power in which a colleague of mine who knows ancient history, far better than I he has said. Is your machine. Looked at at milan, Maher, initially written up bin laden. I mean this kind of studied posture of staying in the shadows, yet is also a source of authority potentially because it it and it embraced. The idea is partly dictatorships as well. I mean if I, the idea that someone's working it's the it's. The basis for a lot of cunanan or other cats were sedated and someone's working behind the scenes, and things are going. The right way. You can't see it, that's always preferable because you're gonna feel it and so not having someone out front can maybe maybe more effective the heavy some out front costly than a wholly maybe

hope in latin herbal omar thing like you can see me or if your bin laden's photographs, and whose videos of I mean he's he's coy. Some observers have none of these kind of a feminine. He doesn't strike this gonna masculine, His artemis leni is not a hitler macho abstaining, my puppy, my chest he's not doing that the article chin. You know that theater people to houses so aggressive, do it. You know, or a chin what value chain up beside us? Our great bbc data person, it was kind of make over, show about how to become a detonator. Oh no, this is about Well, yeah leader authoritarian figure, know just how to how to look ahead in life and ended. Okay, it isn't just about acting how you can act differently right, so it was. It was bbc thing, and this woman claim that signature. like a rather does right- is the most like mail to meddle love this kind of.

Most aggressive areas analysis that people have about power, but what I can wash It's the same as analyzing like in wrestling styles. That win or fighting or so on, there's so many ways through the chan, I mean the the channels, it could be interesting. Verbal gesture and I er I've watched enough. Miscellany footage classes to try to pick the right moment in the chain is miss things about the chin, sir, and I have one human beings and human true enough to know that there is more to a man, a powerful man that his chin in an arms at night, I'm saying it's an act of aggression about saying it is one of the many years in the jacket, Jeff so yeah. He dare not. I would does not all that a chance, but it's it's, but this one I can above benign about bin laden nettle bird enough, with the way he presents himself feet. What we say about bananas are so different from other quarters. Is it because he played it being this?

or he played it being a figure of a modesty and humility, and that meant that he was often it if you watch his visuals mean yes, as one would have him firing gone by if you watch how mood how he wouldn't look at people directly, how his face was almost I'm. He appears big. Incredibly shy. He saw spoken in his voice was low he attempted be poetic rights. It wasn't a warrior kind of image that he trotted project of like a tough guy cause, I'm I'm demure, I'm humble I'm in you know, I'm I'm offering this message and that and in that that ain't, the appeal that he was Four was to see on the need to protect himself, a scholar, his knowledge and humility. The whole package carried with it then authenticity and evaluate valor that animate inspire people too.

acts of violence right? Did it doesn't kind of like logic of like yes, go and kill right? So he put. He presented himself in contrast to the imperialist. Kind of new gerard show lump absolutely every year. So that's it yet another way of any other the facial hair, hair of different kinds of striking, as we had a very recognizable look to are these later in life yeah. Now he he, he tried to depart yeah, but I'm saying more fortunate that whatever calculation they used makey, he was not more effective. Yet I mean there's the the world is full

terrorist organizations and we're fortunate to the degree any one of them does not have an incredibly charismatic leader that attains the kind of power that's very difficult to manage at the geopolitical level yeah we and we credit the re credit, the public's. You know who don't you don't buy into that right? You see through this. We the critics. You know now barely on commission allowing itself one of the problems was it you german officials cap kind of muslims to to condemn this, as if all muslim share some collective responsibility or culpability, and in fact dozens of scholars and authorizations hundreds condemned this, but their combinations never quite made it out but accredited attention where.

Yeah, if you wore a veil, you must been one of them. You must be on team bin laden. So a lot of the yeah, I think all of the popular violence and discrimination and profiling came out of that urge to see a oneness which he had been like milan project If he want to say we are one community. You know if you are muslim, you must be with me right, but I think that that's what the the diversity of muslim communities became important because outside of small pockets, I mean they didn't ban and accept his leadership right. People wore t, shirts and some countries are non. Muslims were teachers because he was like he stuck it to the americans so in america? People are like yeah. That was sad, but you know. Finally, I mean it was a kind of schadenfreude in that moment, as a shag of errors somebody like that. Yet it changes in Brussels book yeah yeah. That's right! That's right! It's just a symbol. It's not exactly what he believed exactly where the cruelty of actions he took it's more like he stood for

idea of revolution: verses authority. That's right! That's that's great redundant and bananas them and the whole phenomenon. But I think looking at the big picture, it's also you wonder yet without ever end. Right I mean is that I mean that's the the risk of being a kind of hyperpower like us. For years, in in assisting on a kind of unipolar world in two thousand one thousand two dozen three arena created, and it almost appears this will target your wherever the? U s wanted to exert itself militarily before go to the history of gas and the people, and that just want to talk to you while some fascinating aspect of the culture. Let's go to the end,

withdrawal of us troops from Afghanistan. What are your thoughts on how that was executed? How could it have been done better in a port question or perhaps elves were saying? You know, as I noted like the war, was mistake and I had hoped the war would end sooner. I think there were different exit routes along the way. Again. I think there were lots policy choices in september and october when the war began and there were choices in december. If thousand one. So we could look at almost every six month, stopping point and say we could have done differently as it turns out, though I mean the way it played out yeah. It's been catastrophic and I think the bite immigration reigned unaccountable for the scale of the strategic

humanitarian and ethical failure that there is not before well. Ok, let's lay out the full there's george w bush is Barack Obama. There is doubt tromp, etc. There is Biden, sir they're all driving this van and exists, and I keep not taken exits running out of gas. I do this all the time. Thinking where am I going pull off I'll go to your vert empty? How could it have been done? a better and would exactly how much suffering have all decisions along the way caused what are the long term consequences, one of the biggest things that concern you about the decisions we've made in both invading afghanistan and staying in Afghanistan as long as we have a amid resort, the end, as you propose and near the horrific scenes of an airport that was just one

One dimension, I think in the weeks to come at me. Where is he Afghanistan implode their lots of signs. It malnutrition, hunger, starvation, We're going to claim tat the thousands, maybe hundreds of the lives this winter, and I think there is really nothing there's no framework in place to forestall that what is the government's? What is currently the system there was through the taliban, so there could be tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of starve. I either just almost the famine or starve to death. So this is

amoc implosion. This is a political implosion. What was the system there like and what could be the one? You know some inkling of hope are right, but alonso sinning control, that's unique when they were in power. Ninety nineties, from ninety six thousand one they control some eighty five to ninety percent of the country now their own at all? But they have no budget. The afghan banking system is frozen, said to the financial sector the mess and its role by the? U s, because you Ass is trying to use that lever to exert pressure on that alone, and so the ethical countries our course legion. Gee writ release that money to love it. on to shore up there all right. The bottoms

he said no, but the banks are working if you're in California. You want to us in dollars your cousin, so she can buy bread, can't do that. Now it's almost impossible. There are some informal networks that are moving some stuff, but there are bread lines. The taleban government is incapable formulates of ruling. I mean they, they can distant people on the street. They can force people at the mosque. They can shoot people, they can be protesters, they can put out a newspaper. They can have that great at diplomacy. It turns out, they can't rule his country, so essentially the hospitals and the kind of health care infrastructure is being managed by ngos that are international and but miserable had to leave and and the taleban have

impeded some of that work. They told adult women essentially to stay home right, sir, a big by people who workforce isn't there. So that means that the supply chain is. You is kind of trying to halt trade with pakistan and its neighbours I mean it's kind of a transit trade economy. Exports, fruits puck sounded enclosing the border because their anxious about refugees. They were and exert pressure on the international community to recognize it. How long, because the pakistan want the taleban to succeed in power, because I see that in parsons national interest, especially to the lens with rivalry with with india, so the parks the pucks on a sturdy incisions or play a double game officially and people who are being held hostage and so the tab on earth

saying you know. If you recognize us, you can let tens of millions of afghan starve said to wish degrees. Taliban like who are the taliban would do they stand for what do they want obviously, year by year, this changes. So what is the nature of this organisation? can they be illegitimate, peaceful kind, respectful government, holder of power or or they fundamentally not capable of doing so I mean the briefest answer would be that they are a clerical, slash motor organisation. They have discover improving four but use. Yahoo. German scholar used the term caravan to describe them that the has on which I develop because.

Didn't people will join the taliban for different purposes it different times, but today and people tell us it's hard. You know more about women than I have said. Listen, the taleban as this kind of hodgepodge of different actors and people and competing interests, and I think so we have a lot of cars. They listen they're there it's polycentric it's, people in the city in that sittings on having actually allows are scattered or have they know this- I mean this invitation that doesn't want you to know where the money comes from and so on. But I say now that we have a clear picture of what has happened at say. They were astoundingly, well, organised clerical matter, recession that has a very cohesive, An enduring ideology, which is quite it is the zoom out, and

Are you the kurdish raving about islam and how and think about radicalism and whose drawn to what people throat, if in terms around describe it all on some the term that links to the kind of school of thought born in the nineteenth century in india, but nobody school if you look at their teachings, it's very clear now think that these labels is like saying you weren't mit guy or what is that mean mit is home to dozens of different, totally kinds of intellectual orientations. Right I mean attaching the school doesn't quite capture I mean you have to say. Is it's complicated, I mean actually mit is interesting because, just as I would say, mit is different. The staff staffer, for example, yeah, I think, I has more. can a narrow yeah. That analogy my primary one knows: firstly, because I would argue that there's some aspect of a brand like Taliban

and yeah mit, no relation that as a kind of interact like the brand results in the behaviour of the public like enforces that kind of behaviour, people nail feed the bran and, like there's a lou, I think yes staffers a good example something more distributed there's sufficient amount of diversity in, like all kinds of like centers and all that kind of stuff, that the the the the the brand doesn't become one thing mit, so engineering It's here. I think, then, that of his heart outlawed escutcheon, mighty stressed in particular, there is really mit than than then you might imagine better, but isn t it, Isn't it pretty? I don't think, there's a diversity so yeah, sorry, sorry, so that just the rephrase, though so people say oh the deobandi school like what does that mean? But the taliban are, they are an ethnic movement

They represent a vision of passion power, which is our people who are quite internally diverse, who actually speak multiple dialects of a pushed her who reside across the frontier of pakistan and afghanistan, there are questions that we have all over the planet. My discreetly moscow. fournier everywhere right, so it's a global diaspora, sorts passions have a kind of geological imagination said it lots. Machines can tell you the names, their grandparents, great grandparents and so on and that's kind of a there's, a sense of pride in the posture, language is a kind of cool element of that identity, but the thought universal suffrage sample you can meet people who say I am pushed, but I dont know pasture so as you as you

far away at this idea. It is amorphous. It also means different things. Different people different time so saying the taleban are. Our pasture requires us qualifiers, because Lots of patients will say now. I am nothing to tell on. I hate those people so Detail on try to mobilise other passions were limited success, but their core membership is arms, sicily, pashtun and they say no, we remsen afghans were we represent pies muslims, and so in recent to three years they ve gone further to say no, we have other ethnic groups, we have is baxter touchiness. We have his hours and in the north of kenneth in areas ears, they did do a bit better at drawing and people who are very disaffected because the government- and they were able to do first by their ranks somewhat but few ought to say, also teen and who

if appointed what language they used had if present themselves as third, it yeah. They are pashtun. They are male and they. Are extremely ideologically cohesive and disciplined as a writer. I think that a lot of the pie centrism while blah, so that was that was a way to fight it. war and they are, they are. Finally, you know a guerrilla movement. They see themselves as kind of pious robin hoods. The rhetoric is very much about taking from the rich taking the privilege given to two for being on the side of the underdog fighting against evil, and so I mean their their their bag. If you like their thing, their their central theme, their brand is about public morality and so their origin story garage. Ninety four is that they interceded they broke up a gang of criminals who were trying to rape, people and so disadvantage.

Like if this, unlike sexuality and on on public morality, really be the core of, like you know, we're going to restore order and and put morality and how that translates into governance, something they've never sorted out. I mean how do you run a bank if europe is what our priorities are really about the length of beard and then and in their path to power and a kind of abstract sense, I mean it was very much driven by on? If you like, propagate the problems of martyrdom and that's it. the enemy to set out a waited to make sound ridiculous mix allocates. A more judgment is simply adding a fact. It's a fact of their appeal that they most young men who have known nothing else by studying in certain schools if at all, but I ve known fighting and they known they known victimization at this, isn't it

I'm not asking for a like seventy for them, but the reality is that a lot of what we know about the kind of foot soldiers as that day lost families and bombings in air strikes in nitrates. You, My orphans have always been a stream. in an all male society, not knowing girls than knowing women hearing things from outside about pays the kabul as it has always been this kind of urban rural dimension, as that is not just that, but I think visit there's a whole imagination that being taliban captures, and wholehearted things really. It's and yeah I to enable its person methought, if a bizarre idea, I'm your enemies. I mean semi legal traditions, everything to but I like an army colonel or to have a conversation with a: u s. Marine about this.

I mean someone get it from their own religious backgrounds, bowing to it It's an alien idea. I think it is such a reconstruction images of sand. That's that Active and now, when the dilemmas going forward is that they ve got a pivot from martyrdom and some have been some have told foreign journalists mean good that we're in charge now we're going to build a proper state, but I'm I that is kind of boring, and I want to keep fighting. I want it. Maybe I'll do in Pakistan yeah I mean it's nice they are expressing their thoughts. Some some are not even honest sufficiently with themselves to express that kind of thought. If you're, if you're a fighter, know it's a he, you see that with a bunch of fighters or professional athletes, once they retire yeah, they don't know. It's very do is boring, and so, like the. If the spirit of the Taliban yeah, even the the the best version of the taliban is to fight is to be martyrs, is to

yeah. It is and the paint the world as good and evil and you're fighting evil and all that kind of stuff that difficult to imagine how they can run an education system, a banking system, respect all kinds of citizens who have different backgrounds or religious beliefs and women, and all that kind of stuff, so yeah and then, if they walked into kabul, another major cities and yeah. Some are young but better than others places, but also the very important also for them is that afghan society has changed. I mean it's, it's not what, if the older guys, it's not what the new ninety nineties and thumb always had some ambivalence about. You know the capital, but now it's totally different, I mean they've been shocked to see, I think to me. One of striking features of fisheries has been that women of color in the streets and have stood their faces and said

we demand rights, we'd manage kitchen, remain employment and on this, for soldiers are paralyzed they're, not sure there are no deal with women fair. Yeah and they don't know what to do with being yelled at and having someone stick their fingers their faces. I mean this is not not with have imagined, as I think, and it is at this juncture. There are still foreign cameras around, so they have acts of violence against women against journalists? They ve been people, they disappear. People. Even with cameras, are on even in this tense period yeah. But I think that when the cameras retreat and that that's what could happen, it's going to get much worse, I think so that

charles hours. You know because of taliban rule and and then this is where the diplomacy is important, because the one can't rule an isolation, and they know that and part of the successor to the fact that they were. They became very good at talking to other people, and last I mean it's been building in the last decade, but as the last five years that they always had foxtons backing, and so the taleban are. We, we noted their military force very effective guerrilla force. They beat the beat beta, I mean this is still The second I mean the fact that they, with light arms using suicide attacks using mines, advise explosive devices, machine guns,

some in recent years. They got sniper rifles and yet, from the summer they got american equipment on a broad scale. Right they have airplanes, they have allotted, they will be able to use eventually and so that, but still a basis that the story of a k, forty sevens some american small arms in minds. So it's very ho chi minh, very old school guerilla fighting.

Right and they defeated the most powerful military alliance in rotisserie, probably so that has not yet sunk in and what that means for american and global politics, and now they're trying to rule right. They know they need international support and they must consist of backers in Pakistan who sees them as an extension of pakistani power. Yet in this very point for a pox, an elite that, of course, is looking towards india. They want to have their rear covered right. They want to make sure that these passions don't cause trouble for pakistan and they like me for some of the security forces. They like this vision of the islamic state that the talent are building there, because they, those are not citizens from their views of what pakistan should be. but the top on have been smart enough to diversify their potential natasha allies. So ever the neighbourhood as one of the? U s, leave right, you got it. Doesn't one

the re iranian america's push forces in the north working together is tom on to despise them using iranian american and an afghan resistance forces, because the taliban and that a moment of refreshment more, we corrected that missed the mists exits The question really wrong could indifferent at that moment, but the? U s: army, george, w bush devices axis of evil language put them deal with their enemy, Iraq and the north korea, or that went south thousand missed opportunity But in recent years the taliban and iran have, if kind of papered over their differences. They allowed the taliban to open some mobsters in an iranian territory likely shared some resources. Some intelligence some cisco weaponry and edit autonomy to moscow and for the penetration yet a long and worried it.

melbourne- is a kind of mia disease that will potentially move north. In fact, is pakistan to get on kyrgyzstan, turkmenistan, kazakhstan and maybe creep into russia's sphere of influence. Maybe that's why they have much troops sitting in tajikistan me that that one year we base that russia has insufficient sense, is used on the top on were always a word, point but also useful because they could Well yeah? I guess

wanna, get out of control. We need to be here and the tajikistan said: okay, now you're helping you're helping scare us and yes, it impinges on our sovereignty. But it's okay. You know so Putin said you know, let's give another black eye to the americans and let's mere treat the taleban as if they're the kind of government in waiting as haven't got a moscow multiple times this summer. You know for the last year or two they'll be talking to the talking to china right. So the photographs of senior taliban figures go from their office and cutter, which was a major major blow to the us by government. The fact they were able to open up an office and carter that at one point began to fly the flag of the islamic emirate of afghanistan that basically

said worst ate them in the waiting and ass the. U s back. Afghan government failed and failed unfilled at at at ruling to write as they showed how crops they were and as they really only more more afghans by committing acts of violence against them by stealing from them by you know, basely creating a kind of cryptography right. The twelve months we are pure, or we are not corrupt and look at us for winning on the battlefield internationally. When we're talking to china, we're talking to Putin were talking to china. Yeah were legitimate, powerful centre of central asia and also kind of your hunting that in a week, but we have a website, I mean what the whole

digital angle, is amazing because they they began to to, and this is important shit that they they had a a website which grew more and more sophisticated again after having shot televisions and he's kind of ceremonial killings of of these infidel devices right, they said we have a government, we have commissions, we haven't. Point line they lifted all this technocratic language that you get from any un document. You know about good governance and other kind of you know generic language that the ngo world has produced for us right in english. They reproduce that in five languages on their talent website and in it Kristen. I'm not saying believe this, but it was like you know, just put me in coach yea. I know the playbook, I know how to run a government and look at. We have a. We have an agricultural commission. We have a mere taxation system,

and and again this idea and then on the ground. They had their own law courts and they would creep into a district assassinate some people, the local authority figures, men of influence and talked to local, works, either, get them on board or kill them and say you know this day is cropped but we're bringing you justice. This is our calling card, we're bringing public morality and justice and then to a broader world. They said nope yeah things didn't go perfectly the whole Al Qaeda thing. You know which we cannot do over on that and we're not going to. Let anyone hurt you from our territory. We just want to rule and people like us and and look and so, if you look at the neighborhood iran, even central asian states, after a while recognizing they can make some money me one of their wanting to expect an likes about the current arrangement or not they are not hostile. To is that they have all these contracts. They can potentially make some money from you know. The pipeline dream remains alive.

running natural gas oil to you and to will end ocean to markets mere beyond central asia. It sitting on culture in dollars, lobbying and mineral resources that china will have to have the course, and so people looking at afghanistan out of twenty years, saying you're under american rule, is about her case right. Those immense human suffering, incredibly violent. The world did not start counting. The bank has these enough essential? Doesn't mine, I'm sorry about that when, after eight years, the tolerant really defeated, pays went talked on, they went to the mountains or to the words, and so all these different in operations, as you noted, under bush obama, trump and so on and killed countless civilians. The rest. Never accounted for that. We never we never encountered and

of sport is vain casualties, biased way that air war belarus, was, I very ugly on the ground, near nitrate, stuff, where you drop into a hamlet in and master people, and in your honest, what happened right so that dynamic at any to fuel the growth the taliban from below so the facade yours than ever at than ever and I've been soldiers, in the u S and its allies killed. Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds thousands of kilometres of the last twenty years, but they just brought it up again and party was out of sight thirty culture, the male bonding of of a modern ology of martyrdom and of of. Revenge and a sense of arm

If the foreign invader- and I've heard I mean I, you know, I haven't taught a ton of us military people, but to the hoover yeah. They they put officers in our classes some times and met a few wonderful army and marine officers who I really enjoyed. We came from the south. Like me, always a great report them and- and they exposed a range of opinions about this- I think that you know I learned a lot from someone who said yeah me. I I get that I get why they hate us. I get why they're still fighting, because he last week we just killed fourteen of their fellow villagers, so the officers, the guys on the ground. You know finest war, we're not stupid about that. I mean they. They got the human emission,

that and yet no one got off the exit. He's said people people kept driving, but going forward now internationally, it's critical that they have they've they've had meetings. I mean what the have and have done since august fifteenth is the one hundred diplomacy they've had meetings, they've had people. If I touch come, they've had beijing come they've had moscow come I mean. They've had have major visits from about from security people from the marry circles and they're counting on things being different. This time I mean the first time around the w e back, the taleban by recognition, giving them medical attention with the saudis, pakistanis and the uea and because of Al Qaeda because of opium because of some of the human rights stuff, yeah, the. U s pushed everyone to like you know: let's not recognize a state, even though the? U s did I mean Colin Powell, famously in summer two thousand doesn't one

yeah. We did give a few grants in aid to the taliban, as I kind of like massaging negotiations. They kept talking about bin laden, but also wanting to stop an opium production in afghanistan. Through all this period we've talked about is the global center of opium production. I mean over the years more and more of afghan economy. Continued to today is devoted to the opium I'll be, which is the thing that leads to heroin. Ah something pain killers, and even if afghan poppies don't make it to your hoboken that they are not the the source of and ass. You know they are part of e, a universal market. A global market which me adding any constitute you as part of the story of of our opium, mean a problem as something egg,

ed, maybe a decade ago, now I'm gonna looked it up again to bring it up to see your opinion on this point report by the international council on securing a development that showed that ninety two percent of afghans in how and and Kandahar province, no nuts of the nine eleven attacks on. U us in two thousand, and one is at all representative of what you know is this possible. So basically put another way. It is possible oh, that a lot of afghans even know the reason why there may be troops or the sort of amerika and provided narrative for why there's troops, america, soldiers

can drones overhead in gas them right. Where my gut response not know the details of this actual pole is that they are a very helpful way, think about how gives way to the world, and I think there can be no fear. My home town knew no corner if you notice endorse, be made me before you dont all kinds of things about the organ. The same heard your and they'd be hook on people. don't know what kind of things. No carry irving apparently thinks the earth is flat, I mean so we could. We could make a lot of certainty ignorance. I think, but I do what I say. An end is also opinion point may be that in

out the withdraw the collapse that return the taliban. There has been a big our session about europeans. Think of us really, and this famous piece in the new yorker was about How many people like that held on that? many women interviewed speedily and his peace a sympathetic is at last found members and all the violence, and the idea can. I was it. yeah. We haven't thought about that at all when, in fact, you know, of course, we have and most people habit. I think if you're, just dropping into the conversation If you look at the media arc of coverage of afghanistan, united states mean the arc went from lots coverage during, of course, nine eleven and its aftermath lots of coverage during an obama surge and then quickly dropped down the last decade and almost nothing So if you ask the same question about americans are over organs, I'm not sure what they would say. Lopsided actually know. Why do you ask.

wires either right betting on the afghan side. Just return that for a moment I think the you know we can fetishize these provinces. They are kind of. You know a place where turbans He's been greatest also where it has been the most violence where the americans have been most committed to trying to root out the movement, where's helmand economies and solve what area about yes in the south of the gas. Yet it's mostly pashtun. Nice was a wee bit but, most importantly, it must be rural. What is worse than that? The other group me at it did that the taliban claimed represent right, so they are the screw. What other Ok, sorry, here, sorry to in cities, you'll find everything right that is in afghanistan. You'll find his bags, tajiks has rs, and these are people who know it is back as a as a turkic language right. Most uzbeks live in what is now pakistan, but they form majorities in some northern parts of the city. I'm sorry of the country like aniston.

but but emphasizes that and you can find online and ethnographic map of concern and you'll see green were passions, live, it has always live orange is makes live. Purple were tajik love, then there, but you other smaller groups of other kinds, either understand, ease, there are abolish, there are, and if religious communities there are sunni, she didn't kinds of sheer. What are the key differences between them the religious basis it from the origins of war they emigrated from and how different are there? So they're all mean they're. All indigenous I mean, there's a lot of mythology that some it's been a longer fight, so they have a greater claim to power. But historically I mean it's like you're at the groups anywhere. People have different narratives by themselves, but many many pashtuns would tell you not all, but many would say we are the kind of state builders of afghanistan.

I see that ruled much space. There was born in the mid ages, a tree that rule until nineteen seventy three more less generalizing. There was a passion dynasty, the taliban have definitely sir To some audiences we're the rifle rulers, because we are pushed in and the trick, though, as there is an enemy to be evasive bit distant, to convey some of the complexity and one quick answer is Well, the majority is minorities. I mean one finds out a lot along with his maps, but I would say suspend any firm belief in that, because that could be entirely wrong. In fact, there's never been a modern sense of afghanistan, so when journalists, a passion,

majority, but the biggest group I say not too fast. It not too fast because of migration is a major issue. No major modern census. I should so he's got pretty close, but in quite you know fights of a comprehensive and in publicize it knowing that it was your modern times at this they can be the source of population. If that is not an eighty so but it's been part of the story. But then you have mixed families writes a lot of people. You'll meet you'll encounter in that aspirin. Around I mean will, and I am you might be, my one parent is Haji. One has one's passion right or I'm pashtun, as mentioned before,

I don't speak pashto right or I am hazara, but you read about asses, as she has ours in fact, am a sunni, his aura or am a secular hazare or I'm an atheist bizarre mean everything's possible right and one of my friends if he had if he were here, he'd sam cobley, yeah, I'm I'm from Kabul. So if the about russian terms, yet it means a lot if you're moscow, which you know if you're from visitor or get a spa. And you know I, like you and you, and here is yet bostonians. Yet that's right, texans californians there, because most earnest all those are all part of the mix here, so you ask about kandahar in her mind, and I would say yes if to new pomegranate field you'll meet a guy who may reckon I'm differently from you and me, you may not

illiterate! He may not have ever had a geography lesson, but go wonder over you. May If the guy, who you know whose life path has taken him to live in six countries, he may speak five languages. These are all things I'm not saying It is because people you have money can go fly around in their people, displaced by war from land at his seventies right even already in the early seventies, people were travelling by the tens of thousands to iran. labour migrants, it wants you to your on which you to pakistan missing. It too is next on. You, then connect to all kinds of cause: walton cultures and fattening one of the themes of of the book here, that you may have a random able to sleep on afghan modern was about such as Afghanistan as a cost bottom place where centuries, people move and train as everything is forgetting the minsk accusation of place like come on.

And caught her you fly in or your part of the ring battalion. many see people there and they look different and I think in our imagination, if I can generalize yeah, they look like they've, been there for millennia right the dress that, whatever I think of technology, think of the the mud composites on you. Think of you know: animal drawn transportation that kinda stuff right or the motorbike right at most is what they have, but in fact, if your father's families and their trade has taken them to northern india for centuries right, the trade is collected to cosmopolitan centers. You say they have a scholar in the family that scholar may have studied all of the middle EAST. South asia right near the ancestors, may have been horse traders who went all the way to moscow. I mean we, we have a software wise people, traveling across Eurasia, pursuing all kinds of livelihoods, and so Afghanistan has this paradox of of visually

working remote and looking like it's kind of stuck in time, but the family tree trees and the crank and trajectories are astoundingly, cosmopolitan and mobile, and so on and a conception of being a a world center is also quite strong, so yeah another way to frame that about light to the number eleven we like should we not eleven, because we are at the centre of something important right. We are the centre. we are the heart of asia. We have a kind of historic greatness. We are, you know, a proud culture of our own achievements right. So we're not worried about that right. That said, I mean sure their character different narratives about why americans are there why people are being killed? You know of course, you'd find here they wanna converters near they want our goal. They want our opium, they export z right. There was a recent story about it at all on official saying in offices

Well, when a journalist asked him, can you find in this rotating globe, find your country find where we're sitting right now and he was filmed not be able to do it, and so a lot of your baseless get afghans that Asperger are saying. You know haha look at this and it exists, I mean I think I could go to my separate classroom and they'd be a lot of kids who wouldn't know where afghanistan is to write. But but cause. I wouldn't. I wouldn't use those metrics to suggest that this is a a place that doesn't have a sense of his place in the world and of geopolitics. I think, if anything being a relatively small country in a very complicate neighborhood, I mean everybody every cab driver. I mean my people. Have I mean yeah? This is where america is def is different, because I don't think Iraq has had the sense. You know we were taught about moscow stuff. I think you know Moscow cab drivers. I think a lot of them are going

tell you like what's happening in the world and wine right and just part of as part of the thing right. You find that Ghana, you find that mexico city, where you find that lots of places sweating afghans, are part of a very sophisticated kind of mapping. of the world and where they fit in in autumn remarkable. You done it first hand, which is what struck me so much in, and you play my expenses from the ninety nine. Isn't it It places it. These guys are already lived and more countries, revenge, they already knew half his languages mean this one friend's russian was impeccable and and of course it helped. They had russian girlfriends, they had no, they they mixed the police. They had run ins minute. This wasn't somebody you got from a book right. This was like hard knock. Life. May one one friend was from a wealthy family in the trading diaspora and he was imprisoned.

They sent him to prison in pakistan and he talks about how he could start like running running the jail. You know taking cigarettes. People do know things and kind of yeah. It is. These are not stories of like I went to harvard harvard and times I've learned, because this I mean it's, it's a it's whole range of the issue is a surveys. The survey- and it doesn't reflect ignorance as your saying perhaps but it may reflect current geopolitical view of the world. Then the west has yes off enough a lot of the world. Nine eleven was one of the most poured in moments of recent human history and for afghanistan taught to know that, especially when their part of that story means there were very different mica theirs.

could be. A lot of things said: one is the spread of information is a different, the channels of the way information is spread and to the things they care about. Maybe they see, themselves and as part of a longer arc of history, with the bickering of these superpowers seem to want to go to the moon or not as important as the big sort of art has been the story of afghanistan and, as you know, there s an interesting idea, but there is still a bit if, at all, representative of the truth is heartbreaking. That they're not do not see themselves, as, active player in this game between the united states and others and sent for asia, because there is such a critical player and I feel in obviously in may

We get the short end of the stick in this whole interaction with occupy. You know invasion of gas that for many years and then now this rushed with withdrawal of troops and now the economic collapse and it some. It is sad in some ways: that's it is know. Another way to put this on. I mean yeah, there there's a range of knowledge and and the right impression, the closer our art peculiar to tipper, geographies and histories and stuff. I think that you're plucking out one sample from some fairly remote area from one like follow that follow the aquifer products I mean it is where you know. I think the urban rural divides chair used to mean a lot more in the nineteenth century. Writes her a lot of like nuts and bolts of history is about conceiving of these kinds of distinctions in everything,

If one has the privilege of traveling about you, see that like urban areas are, are fed by rural hinterlands and if you look think of who actually brings the bread, the milk, you know pomegranates on the crazies networks and then yet, mobility channels, information and so on, but yeah. That was your broader point about, like the tragic this magazine, if I can quote a brain Sid mine and afghan american woman who just received her phd, is now no doctor is a great scholar and we ve done several events. Now China distinctly what's happening. before she's very emotionally affected by it and she couldn't use it ask a really great question. I if I can get her phrasing right, if you think of the cycle of like the talent being empowered, hasn't won in the way in which that affected women in particular, yet half of whom have half of society right, then you think of this twenty appear to violence and- and he had missed exits right in,

peter tragedy that also it credit space. I mean it created space for all the attention. Originally, it created a sense of space for people to realize something new. I think so. We have to attend to the dynamism of the society right so yeah. This happened mostly in kabul, other big cities, mazare sharif, herat, kandahar, and but you can't limit your analysis to that, because things like radio tv, everyone got a tv channel, there's a wonderful documentary called an afghan star that I recommend to your listeners of years that it's about a singing show scene contest show. But you see just just precise things about like connections I mean It's a it's a show by an independent, your tubbs network that had drama it did it did kind of infomercials for, like men and huge american investment in it, so it wasn't politically neutral, but it had talk shows that all scratched up at the singing show dip became incredibly pocket

are modeled upon the british and american. You know american idol kind of stuff, you know and you can vote to have the kind of democratic practice element. But it's asking to see that you know people hooked up generators to televisions and watch this, yet you think of like literacy rates, literacy rate, Imperfect- and you know, people who study note medieval or not in europe like, but how ya know, could read and north many books, but a phone the book and be read aloud to her village potentially are gathering, so there is which now so is that you don't get what people actually receives information exposure because there's a marathon power of open spaces and hearing radio in group settings, sync tv group settings having telephone, you know cheap cellphones, which then become an access point to the world and social media right. So all the stuff swept across african society as it did elsewhere. You know, and in the last decade

or more so afghan society became important ways really connected to everything going on. So you see that reflected, more people wanted to add some people of the back return of the some people wanted this ass well, but increasing many more people into something else. And one of the great failures was exposed to a democracy, but only given the rigged aversion and so the. U S is terrifying. killer, continue to double down on faked elections, for the parliament and for the presence in Afghanistan will kind of elections, faked fraudulent elections for parliament and and for and Afghanistan, again and again, the very beginning and does life possessions were partly theatre for the? U s light for remaining on the road that you're describing right for not deviating from our extreme, because we are building democracy there of the us knew it was never really building democracy there. It was assumption control. Elections were one means to macao to control

right, but then you had on the ground, especially when young people going to university yet having experiences that were denied to them before. Yet they took these promises seriously support the disillusion that we see today is that you know they believed what he was told them the constructive democracy and, of course, in citys, like aspect unthinking lawyer, during that year backing fraud table. I it whenever a younger and now there actually smart enough to understand that it's a farce, yeah, but in so indirectly had the consequence of actually working. In that regard. The young, but here

if twenty years young folks to believe that democracy is possible and then to realize what democracy is not exactly the difference as the result was that as a but abbott elegance. Now it's you know it's now november, and so this whole period- and I wouldn't say like you know I wouldn't cast last one years- are looking at all the achievements. You know I wouldn't put them in an american tally sheet like this, we should patterns in the back, for I think that much has happened actually against what the american wanted mean. That kind of free thinking debacle wanting mean evenly we points on the religious to the religious sphere, I mean the the african religious landscape became very pluralistic and lost young people wanted a different of secular politics.

I buy the old, the old guard, who wanted the status quo and wanted something that had fought for nineteen eighties, tended to still get american backing as the political easiest alternative to monopolize critical power, and it's also was happening in different ways. The american establish this america numeracy afghanistan, which was, I think, one of the best things you I stood there and I regret that. The? U s didn't fund twenty more sprinkling them across the country. Make them cecil people cause it was. It was yet again, it wasn't an engine of americanization, it was just operating, so that that the thirst for higher education is really a store near. There was never never really met that you often had to put money in primary education, which much of that tea was was fraudulent. But so you have all the If she dynamism you have. You know the arts, you have a a critical space, I mean I, I call it a public sphere in the classic

european sense of afghans made of their own and begin it wasn't. Americanization it wasn't imposed is something the afghans built across generations, but really without a firm foundation among youth. it importantly a multi ethnic afghan society. You asked about passions and macao, seven law that language and Yours was, and they are aware that the us backed government was playing ethnic politics and trying to kind of put people in the blocks and mobilize people based on their ethnic identity, And there was a higher court people who said we are afghan and as such, we to software people say I am has our but am also tajik muscle is back. I mean. It is a way of creating a multi ethnic afghan national identity that embraced everything very utopian cypriot, hoping right, but some obvious

important, that a rejected being mobilized politically voting, as has our are voting, is whatever. And, of course there were, there were communities who wanted to vote as that ethnic muti, but there are also people said. You know, let's put a kind of civic nationalism, first, one that accompany it's. I think pluralism in a way that rejected a kind of majority politics of of one ethnic group dominating the thing it's all the stuff was quite interesting. I mean women were asserting themselves in across multiple spheres. Of course, it remained patriarchal, of course, their struggles. Of course, there's violence.

It is no utopia but the door and all that shut in on august thirteen. So, to go back to the the quoted I wanted to offer from the student and now presser was it you're in trying to access this image and the tragic arc here? And you think the twenty years like she asked you? Why did you go to war in our country better? What did you do the sauce for twenty years, when this was never about us? And you never asked us if you wanted to come. He never asked us what you wanted to build here eat as this when you're coming, and you ask us when, when you're leaving, you just did this all on your own and we tried to make the most of it, and then you pull the rug out from under us at the eleventh hour and in return return to power, probably by diplomacy. It wasn't at the end, just a military loss. I mean it was a series of dips,

incisions. I mean the idea yes, but alternatives mean giving up. Bagram I mean holding the timeline. I mean the bottom: people did not need to hold to the Doha agreement that trump assigned I mean every american president writes his or her own. One policy right so the vitamins rich and acted as if they tried to convince us that their hands were tied and and that it was either this or twenty more years of war or some absurd kind of you know false alternative interpret. I think that's important for american audiences to hear that either, like you came to here to experiment- and you came here to punish- you came here to kind of reassert me, dominance, the world stage. You talk out the the fear and and hurt of nine eleven though we talked about which was surreal, you know and palpable, and it's important for american politics since then like he did. You worked out your problems. You know on us on our territory and

now what we have for it? You know, and then the people who who had a stake in that system, imperfect as it was, have been desperate to leave, and so this I dunno how much people read but you know I am a scholar I were in California. You know I have friends, I added a journal on Afghanistan yeah, but not a politician. I am not a soldier, but people assume that europeans have been done we're trying to reach me and anyone who is caught up on the radar asked american to help get them out. You know that that's the kind of like you, the symbolism of voting with your feet, you know, is quite powerful. I mean a there's, a huge swath of society that doesn't want the system

is literally living in terror about it. Naturally, women near that mean especially women of a certain age, meaning they fuck their lives. Rover I mean there is an epidemic of suicide and they feel betrayed and- and some people have done some good things in getting people out. You know I mean some. You know that us military vets have been. You know at the forefront of working to get out people. You know that that they they know they owe, but the us government doesn't want these people, I mean they have created all these obstacles to To allowing a sexual for people to leave looking forward from a perspective leadership, how do we avoid these kinds of mistakes? So obviously some interests, some aspects of human nature led to this war. How do we resist that in the future? I asked beyond my moral and ethical,

last year. Obviously, this time, looking at him, looking at it from my home ground as the university and I think, of the the intellectual and yet ways of ways of thinking that that ain't students should develop themselves as citizens right and maybe that's where to start as I e historical thinking, these are off and I tried topic lena. If you want to be robotics computer science, we be a doctor. Whenever you should study. History. Here I mean that european soil I mean it's, my job is imperfect. My profession is deeply flawed right, but As I get older, am I the fear of your swains actually you wanna hang out with and stuff, so it's like I'm not offering my myself as like a model for anything, but you know whether you're if you carry the mail or you're a brain surgeon. Whatever I mean, I think it's a it's a it's a way of. Engagement and way of life, s coming in the world that we needed tomorrow's us over, because in an if you interfere from a rich country, need to be aware of your fact honour on an issue that world I'm. You can't you can't say anymore:

if you don't know or care what's happening in afghanistan are really circle. The globe and point of place I mean we're all connected, are all free of ethical obligations and that's one place. I've I'll just say this out, and this is a I'll offer self critique, and that is such my teaching. In like the themes, my research have been about empire. You know how big states work not only on big territories like the russian empire series up at twain, which power often He has projected beyond his boundaries and ways it we don't see. So this is where things like neo liberalism merges. You know, wanted to capitalism or just things it at you. daddy of humanity of liberalism or of humanitarianism it is a move beyond state boundaries are all things that we think about as affecting power in some ways that that often harm people rights, I think part of as I've. I've seen my job so far as I think about you have built upon the work of my people, grad, school and

of. If demeaning iraq asserted with how power works and its effects and trying to be attained to understanding The art right that we should be thinking about this should be known to us in the scholars begin We play some useful role in showing effects that aren't yet obvious, initially and so empire is a framework to think about this, and so you think about it in foreign countries. Obviously, if you're a scholar of empire you've seen what what that looks like and that's horrific right, isn't he look at things like racism as one of the illogical pillars of empire, yet that terrific must be critiqued and must be. We must be educated some of the generous. What version of empire is also to highlight dear to rectifying on moral beings when you think about pass inequality and then the legacies of legacies of violence and destruction

that live on. I mean living in america. I mean look at you know we're all on stolen land, we're all in the sense living with the fruits of a genocide and slavery and other things that are hard to come to terms with right. But the last few months in afghanistan and thinking about empire. I think made me more humble when I read people who say to to put it simply: have it taken some join this moment saying like well, the americans got kicked out of afghanistan if you're against empire. This is a good thing. This is a kind of victory of of anti colonial. You can see from the perspective of Ghana stand that america is not some kind of place that has an ideal. freedom and all the kind of things that we american tell ourselves. But it's more

Aca has the idea of empire that there's one place. That has the truth, and everybody else must follow this truth and so from a perspective of garrison, it can be a victory against this idea of centralized truths of empire That's another way to tell the story, and then in that sense it's a victory and yeah in in that sense also, I mean you push back against this somewhat. This idea of afghanistan as the graveyard of empires, but right now says that's what you mean. It's I mean I'm a critic of empire. I mean, I know close them as a a political phenomenon that stays with us and I think we need I used to pointed the way in which it still works and still does harm, and but it's part of being an empire that you can just get up and leave a place right, that you can remake it's politics on one day and then because it

fails to advance your agenda at one moment. He simply walk away, I mean you know we can point to other moments. I mean ante forty, seven and so content. You know the way that british withdrew I played a snippet role in mass violence that that accompany partition. It wasn't all the actions of the british that you dictator that right there were lots of actors who chose the pickup. You know the knife to to kill the neighbor, and so on. I mean there's lots of agency in that moment, as there is now in what's happening in afghanistan, but I think the the capriciousness I mean that the the ability to act as if you're you're you're putting positions about abuse lives. There are something that can be made. You know in secret that can be made willy nilly. They really are beyond the accountability you know of of those who are actually going to live with the consequences of shifting the cards.

Back in a way that decides who rules and who doesn't I'd, love to hear it conversation with somebody I just talked to, which is NEO ferguson, who argues on the topic of empire that you can also zoom out even farther say way, the good and the bad of empire, and he argues that he gets a lot of fact for this. From other historians, It's like the british empire did more good than bad in certain moments of history and that's an uncomfortable truth. Yeah there's like levels, it's a cake with layers of uncomfortable truths and it's not a cake at all, because none of it tastes good right away. I will continue to disagree with alfre since I'm, so I'm still working out a wham and in what this moment does the kind of an qualify qualify, my understanding of the past into adding in a moment the humility I do and I'd probably be. I'm probably writing

The kind of you know, as you put it, I mean the daddy of this, like a good thing that american power has been defeated. Here I mean I do think american power should contract, and I I don't think that again. If I, if I had to create a a tally sheet what the americans did in the. U s. I mean I mentioned the american university of palestine right. It could have done that without invading the country and killing people it could have you know, I'm not. I've got now become an apologist for empire, I'm not I'm not now a mini person, but yet ending empire is I mean it does how you that those as soon as you make our? in some ways a continuation of apparel, hubris right and so you're, not really out of empire, yet you're not really contracting empire. For those who are living it, you know, but I think it's also I mean it may put us way its be careful. What you ask for- and I mean I I wanted- I wanted us out of afghanistan- and but I wanted There'Ll- be a

settlement. I wanted. I wanted my cake and I wanted to eat it too. Right. I wanted all kinds of things be different right. I was going to guess the veneto for that. You can play all those games of geopolitics without ever invading and taking ownership of the place if it feels like the winner yeah, if miss it feels like any I'm not exactly sure what military force is necessary for accept nor targeted, intense attacks. Physic to me, the right thing. do after nine eleven was the show. What was a display of force. like anything. The world has ever seen for a very short amount of time, targeted at sure a terrorist at certain strongholds and so on, and then in and out and then focus on

education, empowering women to dig into the education system, all kinds of things that have to do with supporting the culture, the education, the flourishing of the place Thank you. Do with military policing, assess right, lemme. Think yeah. If you look at it too, that landsmen If any, Afghanistan and innovating iraq didn't end. Al Qaeda it didn't end terrorism. May it didn't really deflate these ideologies entirely and there, if you like you say there, you have some limit discrediting of certain kinds of ideas, but in fact I mean look at the problem of suicide bombing bombing and I mean it spread me. It was never an islamic thing, it was never. You know a muslim thing and some muslims adopted it in some places, but.

yeah the circles of knowledge about how to do these kind of things. Only expanded with the insurgencies that emerged in afghanistan, Iraq and then they kind of became connected. Then they beheaded. The president mean islamic state is, is the best thing that happened, the taleban ever because it's on the basis of it's suppose, a new stance as a counterterrorism outfit that it will get recognition from all it's neighbors. It will get recognition. Russia I mean already with evacuation. Airport dancers, was collaborating with taleban against the against It's almost eight and only talking about the taliban as if they are partners in this graduation so and then a kite remains present and a fast on serve trillion, a dollar dollars and yeah the drones up, above bombing places the result in civilian death, the death of children, the death of fathers and mothers and, though

stories, even at the individual level, propagate verily across the land, creating potentially more terrorists and assent in view of the trillions of dollars is the military industrial complex or their just a momentum. Nowhere after eleven. The feeling like we should do something led to us doing something and then a lot of you realising that can make money from do more of their something, and then the momentum or no one person is sitting. Arab reading a cat in an evil way same we're going to spend all this money and create more suffering and create more terrorism, but just something about the momentum that leads to that end it to me,

I see I just am still a sucker. I believe in leadership I believe in great charismatic leaders and the power of that want to do evil and to do good. Then I felt like I honestly put the blame on george bush obama. Trump and Biden chair for lack of leadership. Them definitely definitely agree and yeah. There is the but it s a complex component is huge and there's also a mistake in the governorship. It's also added the about power with in washington in the pentagon. Use this moment, I will begin in two thousand one thing to assert authority at the expense of other incisions of national government. Yeah I mean at the state department. Diplomacy has become a shadow of what it was once capable of doing, and of course I mean other stories us history,

in sandwich, I'm not from a history of the united states but yeah. We can go back to talk about vietnam. We talk about lots of cold war and post cold war engagements and adding yeah. We need a reckoning about how the united states uses military power. You know why we devote so much to our military budget and what evolved to us if we had a more sensible view of the value of motor power of its effectiveness, we building the hammer home that this was a defeat. I mean, I think there should be accountability and if you- and this can be a kind of opening for a kind of bipartisan conversation, because if you are a kind of an american militarist, I mean you have to look at the leadership that I e to a place where you are defeated by men wearing sandals firing a k, forty sevens right there there should be a humility with that. Is that it I mean it actually say that we, like literally, we lost you search, they lost it wasn't just here.

is that the american military last year and I and I feel I have very mixed feelings and know It'S- I dunno a ton of veterans but yeah I've mentioned I've, taught my share, and I have sued now and They are they're suffering because they look at sacrifices that they made. That I didn't make. I mean I'm excited, make sacrifices men women lost limbs. lost eyes? They lost lives. You know that there's been this, of course quiet epidemic of suicide among among veterans- and I I've heard some stories the fact that the state department is seeing a similar surge of suicides because they see their adult life's work. Class they ve, seen of leisure shapes and have seen their seem phone calls and alight from people who lay, trust of their lives, who they never can be targeted. Some have already been killed. They see

I may I use I'd. Imagine I logically in professionally what they believed in and what they do. They sacrifice for india has vanished, and I think that's that's That's bad, I mean historically anything if some of the presents you are thinking of. I mean, if you think, of no personal or human level, I feel horrible for those people who I have agreed with everything they've done and in their choices life, but I respect the fact that many good people went out of your the best intentions as young people to to do the right thing and make things right, and I respect that and I've met enough to know that there are people who saw the gray and complexity, and that's all you know four, but We don't want a generation of disillusioned veterans if we look at the other postwar moments and this kind of passport moment where in writing. We need a conversation with a mega veterans about about whether gone through.

muttered failing to have the soft skin in the game. You know, because her personal connections there in the end of their history is also going to be future leaders. I mean Yeah veteran already young people who are served are often great men and women that signature and in our throughout history, where these sacrifices. Sir, in fighting world war, two in fighting the norm, that's going to more june different ways that That's going to mould. How you are as the leader that leave this country forward agenda. they have an honest conversation about what was that the role of the warrant.

understand the war in the Middle east, the war on terror in the history of america. If we just look at the moon context at the end of this twenty first century, how're gone to remember this and how that's going to result in our future interactions with small and large countries with china or some proxy war, which it was russia or some proxy war with russia was the role of oil, natural resources and opium, and all those kinds of things was the role of military power. I in the world and now with corvid, you know it it's a gun. It's almost like though, because of the many failures as u s: government

many leaders in in science and politics to respond effectively and quickly to our two covered will kind of forget that we fumbled this other thing to do, and it's it's hard to know which has got more expensive yeah. They they seemed to be symptoms or something of us of a same kind of source problem of leadership of bureaucracy, we have of the way information and intelligence flows throughout the us government, all those kinds of things and hopefully motivates young leaders to fix things. Definitely I mean, I think there's one thing that the jobs at me and think about this momentum in

If we recognize that we live in a kind of crisis of democracy and the united states and in other countries that have long been of democratic traditions, if we see them be under solve, isn't quarters, I think military defeat is yet another addition to all that. The aspect of this that you mentioned, I mean the fact that motor defeat is a giant match that you're going on this fire, potentially, if think of its legacies and other possible environments. When you do that Angle years as one when you have people who feel betrayed, I mean they have been fodder for the far right. In other settings I mean interwar. Europe is very much about mobilizing disillusioned veterans, the name of right wing, fascist politics, and if one thinks to you at this moment of really increasing xenophobia

yeah. Our immigration debate is now talking about whether or not afghans should be permitted at all in the united states after twenty years, and I think immediately their spots in europe, which I followed some extent focusing on germany, because it it was really ramping up. Deportations of afghans leading up this collapse, and now they have been yet a lot of right wing centre. Right. Politicians in in germany We've been watching all this with an eye to and using it to their advantage for a domestic german audience to say you know in the context of light recent lessons that yeah, weird

pretty he will defend you against. These afghans are gonna, be coming from that. So you know what I've tried to emphasize in talking to different groups about this moment is that it won't be confined to Afghanistan or even the region, and obviously malnutrition. Hunger will send afghans to neighboring states, but where the european right is resurgent. This has been a gift right to say that the africans are coming. The brown skinned they're muslim, they're, uneducated, they're gonna, want your women and they will take. You know the odd sexual assault case. Or the odd, whatever dramatic act of violence that happens numerically in any population, and they will magnify that to say that you are far right group is going to save the nation and sorry that the main point I wanted to the main vision was it, I think the cereal. But there are many many carlson's if you like, but If you like our and algae while the exits, I mean what blocked some as access was on an absence of truth and transparency

and the lying, and so I mean that this is no secret when his father's bitter we've allowed you think of it as general mistrust of government mistress of of authoritative authority across the board of professors of economists, of scientists, scientists, doktor doctors. Why do you think this hopeful thing to me about the internet? Is the internet hates in authenticity in smell bullshit much better, and I think that motivates young leaders to be transparent and aesthetic. So like this The very very probably been seeing this kind of attitude of like of authority, were of the populace. the too busy with their own lies there not smart enough to understand the full complexities of the thing I deal with. So we're not going to you and communicate to them the full complexities we're just going to decide and then

tell them, or we decided in, can see some kind of narrative that that makes it easy for them to consume this decision. As opposed to that, I have, I really believe I see there's hunger, for authenticity of of when you're making decisions when you're looking at the rest of the world and tried to decide the untangle. This complexity, the internet, the public, the world, wants to see you as a leader struggle, with the tension of these ideas. To change your mind to see you know to recognize your flaws in your own thinking from a month ago. All that have the full complexity of it also acknowledged the uncertainty as with covert also with the wars You know, I think, there's a hunger for that and that's just going to change the nature of leadership on the twenty first century. I hope so either you're all busy holiday mean

accountability, is part of that. Right I mean we need. You know your honesty, openness and then your knowledgeable mistakes and humility is the key to all learning right, but also mean you think, just the headline from yesterday, the the port will drone strike, which was right last kind of american, not reaction on the day that The. U s was, I think, mostly departing from Kabul, wiped out an entire family, mostly children. Yet he was the knowledge that yes, this was not the isis bombing outfit that I thought it was by yesterday. The they did a quick review. I am not an expert on on drone strikes in the aftermath, but as he lives in my clothes. He said it was basically a whole cloth taken from what the? U S, government has been saying. After all, the strikes Yet remedies in the same language and basic point to technical errors.

But denying that there were any procedural mistakes or flaws, or is this kind of a fellow ways of acknowledging things not goes plan? you with all the parties essentially and you that's it. It's not a crime This is a way of not even saying you know we screwed up and it's it's kind of the legal ease that that suddenly makes or crime not a war crime you know and that that is roughly reflects that he or fizzle to detect, Finally, I think we were really sick of that year. In a way were the opposite is true, which, as they get excited for people who are not for leaders who are not that right, as others they're not going to punish you for saying, I made a mistake here that I said I had a conversation francis cause, the director and age and part of my criticism

towards Anthony found. She has been that dumb ethics such subtle, but such crucial communication of mistakes made. If you make a small mistake, it is so powerful to communicate. I think we must stop. We thought this was true. Yup, and it wasn't so that the obvious thing there was with masks early in the pandemic, there's so much uncertainty. It's so understandable to make mistakes order to to also be concerned about what kind of hysteria different statements you make lead to his being transparent about that and saying we were not correct in saying the thing was said before: that's so powerful fear to communicate hu, I gain trust in the opposite. Is true. When you do this legally step of tanya, it's eta destroys trust,

I again, I really think the lessons of recent history teaches us what it what how to be a leader and teach young leaders how to be leaders- and I so I have a lot of hope- you're, partly thanks to the end yeah. That's all. We need you kind of honesty and yes in the past is an important way to do that, to me too, to learn from past mistakes and of their source inspiration incursion here. We can take some kind of substance from that too, but also learning from many are not do things right. you know analogies and ever like one one. I may return in arm I mean not even many vietnam veterans would say yeah. This is like deja vu. You know, I mean as the story that the the visuals of the couple airport and of of the saigon MC were not the same but close enough, the people which expose them all

We're not, but I would just ask people that you know over an hour. Driving is also you know, a kind of path down like making errors of judgment and in comparison and in sameness, But is stretch mainly like nine eleven itself. I think the idea that people lack imagination within our security apparatus to think this is impossible right when you think of the simplicity of having a ten dollar lock on a cockpit door, you know could have wanted all this and yoga mat saying either the time or and I am omniscient about all this, but I just living in germany the year before, and there was a plot there. This guy was hatching from germany to blow up the muslim of audit work in ankara with an airplane. As you kind of dig, you know it wasn't unimaginable that you would use.

his a weapon in the bush. So she kept saying no one had ever heard of this. Who would do this? My will not let people do this, and then you know that that very moment my wife was teaching the Joseph conrad novel secret agent which was about a conspiratorial organization that wanted to bomb ashi. In retrospect, it was kind of suicide bombing think they tricked this guy into doing it, but they wanted to bomb the greenwich observatory. For some obscure medical purpose, and so that's an instance in which near the novel might go back to our kind of humanities beds right. That is my point was that you know, as you mentioned, we need him. Anti transparency, but also imagination, right, I think part of expand your magician is by yeah. I mean I've see delving into your fields. You know, Engineering in the sciences and robotics unofficial tell it is thought that rich landscape in, but also we find him

poetry, literature. I mean just the kind of stretching that that we need to do to really educate ourselves more fully right across the across the spectrum of of everything. Humans need to imagine the reimagined security, yet so much what we taught at aiming as much of you know our securities affected, I uh this perception of their insecurity right, which unleashes a whole web of emotions. Can you tell me about the afghan people, how what they love, what they fear. What

I dream of for themselves and for their nation. Is there something to say to speak to to the spirit of the people that may humanize them and may be speak to the concerns and the hopes they have yeah the I you know as an outsider, I his data to make any grand statement about say: listen, let me know- and there are a number of documentary films that are incredibly rich- that will offer your letters of years snapshots, others afghan star yeah, which really brings you the homes of a set of people who they want stardom the artist they want express themselves, some want to push political boundaries, cultural boundaries, this woman who gets into hot water for dancing. But you realize it- I mean people, I mean they love art, they love music, they love, poetry, they love expression,

if people want to care for their children, they want safety, the families they want to enjoy. Whatever enjoys you know, I think it's very humanizing portrait and there's another great documentary. Film called, and I love crimes of kabul, which is a great snapshot of of the post two thousand world, that the americans shake lot of ways, and it's about a women's prison, and it's a color revealing its about young girls and in what they want or not not upon his young bit young teenage in simulation people who here accused of war crimes reggie from homicide which one woman in answer to having situations outside marriage, and so it shows chosen way continuity with the previous

taleban regime and that women are imprisoned for things that you wouldn't be in pins for elsewhere. In that islamic law operates as the the kind of judicial logic for these and these punishments, but letting women kind of speak themselves and ms fascinate me they don't wanna, give too much away, but women may branching choices in this film that land them in the spring of men so they don't all profess innocence summer, like I'm guilty, but they're guilty for reasons. In one case, one woman is guilty. She is in prison because it's a way to exert pressure on her fiance to finally marry her so you get ethnicity, you get like your kind of male, juliet things or their families, not like each other silly, but they find each other. The questions of ice, love money, clothing, furniture and it's beautiful. I like that, the parts with it or showing it in class out there was a wonderful afghan student who was a, I think, a fulbright it at school. At Stanford and she's

yes, she's, amazing, and it was awkward for her because tomorrow, young women having sex and stuff- and it was just it wasn't- you know the snapshot of appearance and that she wanted ramsey, there's so much more they're, great writers- and you know, musicians- and I mean you know: music is a huge thing and read poetry. All the things are great, and so she found it yeah. I hear ya, I mean it's it's a kind of taboo subject, but I thought the americans didn't sing it. really then find with his women. There's a real, and so you are young. You would find like. I mean relationships that are universal and successes. It heard never difficult love love the universe yeah, so we do have resources I mean you, Samir people want to call it. Husseini is african american he's done his stuff, but there are. There are number of of novelists and shorter riders who it equal things. I think that another tragic aspect of his moment is that

as people have now pretty much had to leave the country so that, as a visual artist, I would highlight for you named cottam ali and is a hazara based in Australia. He does extraordinary work in blending a tradition of persian miniatures, with temporary political, terry and his workers between Austria and Afghanistan, but he also he had to flee users, work and couple, but it's a extraordinary color. Visual language that he's adapted. It has shut off Planet alum he's got some of his works in your galleries in europe and he's been shown in Australia. He he talks about migration in a way that puts afghans and his aura is at the center, but as tilly universal about to do in our modern crisis of of all the means, people who are displaced across our planet and he attempts to kind of speak for some

the size of them in a way that, like everyone, can get- and I mean the visual imagery, experts will know that it is from you know, like the the sean m air, like an ancient persian epic, that iranians were attached to that africans are attached to that. People can quote, you know it at length and has mythical figures of good and evil kids kiss her embodying their names and aims the characters that are causing the book of kings. the heroes and villains are the staple of competition and and and poetry. In here, like russians, I mean the kind of that, the the resort to literary references and speak is something that yeah america's. Don't you most What's your own? Don't do with the fact that it was yet another quarter character an hour. This reference, the word play the linguistic finesse in multiple languages, a major value of afghan story, being an outsider. I'm scratching at the service of the surface is devastating,

psych it it s, fastening the layers here with an air of russian language debts, zactly that the culture and sir I've been struggling. And this is kind of the journey embarking on yeah convey turn american audience what is lost in translation. Breaking russian and girlish minutes, it's very challenging in some way Retract translators of the us give tolstoy a russian literature struggle with this deeply. They work of its it's a it's. An art form just to convey that and- it's amazing to hear that gas than with a full mix of cultures there. There have the same kind of witten, humor and depth of into either here or thing is that's from in our visual imagery is about like this sad place and our never been the I mean socially again, I'm going engage in some stereotypes about generalization stoppages, the n yeah, the afghan friends

I've come to you because of their love mean now the humor there's so much. There have common commerce of When I go to ireland, it's on my favorite places into sector. I feel the pressure like the humor all around me. Your time, if, like the southern ocean iron, and like in russia with the humor stuff, where thank you yet your game- pulaski assets, yeah thought I like the intensity of conversation in terms of yeah. You have to be on your game in terms of wit and so on, and you have to it. There are certain people I like when I talk on his pockets are like that certain people from the jewish tradition, how the public, when aware just like? Ok, I have oh yeah, I really have to pay attention. Yeah we gotta go it's a game, it's a it's a guy. You know what it feels like. It feels like speed, chess or something like that: really had to focus our play and at the same, is your body language in that, and then there's the

I'm calling nature to these in the russian side on the whole thing is the beautiful or this as a funny too video that went round it that I got from some afghan occurrences. That was a and he's an irish media in kind of highlighting near an irishman and german matches. Their types hospitality And this afghan man was that I didn't know that the irish were just by afghans, because the whole, like the hospitality like parties, have like a refusal. You know you, you, don't you don't take something that's offered the first time you don't yemenis the the culture of and of receiving a guest. You know, that's, you know, americans, I mean that's, not you know, that's not always I mean the different, the the original cultures, but that's the thing there's wherever, but it's I mean the the kind of like generosity and the kind of you know that that's that's real. I mean that's and that's a cool thing. That's amazing, that's you know the food gone up, just the superficial things behind with a

but all that the the warmth of hospitality- and I have wit and humanity- I mean it's that that that that's what we don't see reviewing the place just the war and geopolitics and the moving pieces, la mapper staff and that's. And that's hard to see when you're there gaps in london in language, in in religious tradition and and all staff, and in you know, being open the fact that people do do things differently. You know and and saw an agenda and mentioned their support right. There, they're kind of you know arguably each culture kind of gin, ginger Da Gemma, is different, and so I think it's helpful to have humility in thinking that some africans were isn't that something's different differently yeah. But then you also have afghans who say every woman should be educated, a should work and so on, and so on so If there's no getting away is yes and there is a general dynamic in russia too, that we need to be respectful of that like that, though, that's not always what it looks like at first this layer, where power, those minutes, that's my happiness.

Yeah there's a whole another country where it were the hour is roomy the thirteenth century. Persian poet Was born on the land that is now, Ghana stand as there's something in his words that speaks to you, bought the spirit of the afghan people. I mean everyone answer me. I guess I'd say that that's going to get me trouble with certain afghan fans of me who want to see him as as an afghan, I would say. Are they proud yeah? I get it as an afghan today, yeah beside it again, it depends me some some people will be militant say. Near the honest can have him he's hours, but there also say no he's

you say he's like a rorschach, inkblot and he's he's. A sufi is a muslim he's. A central asian is iranian. Is afghan he's a turk, I'm trying to give analogy, but he's something special everyone. So I guess I would. I would not walk into that conversation and claim that he isn't one or another, but it, but it's a cool thing amidst the, but I'm glad you brought that up, because that's a good way of seeing a scene, something that afghans I mean for the liberal countries, afghanistan and say: okay, roomies everyone. You know madonna, helped make famous name it's, you know for better for worse. This is the cost of a starbucks and that's all complicated and embarrassing and hit his. His transactions are very much disputed. Where you have people be like there's some awful transitions in there are. There are also a lot of speaking the internet. There are lots of fake rumi quotes near you know like ruiz always be your best route and say that that was him. I mean that's going to social fabric, but under the whole thing is like the.

I think you re roomy as a religious thinker, but you also, red remy, as here in an islamic society, also read him as a kind of spiritualist or someone who are an ethicist or moralist and starting. That's that I like the lands of roomy as a gateway, scan ecumenicism and cosmopolitanism aneurysm. You potemkin the of Many. I shall afghans who were actually for russian foreign german, flew in turkish they know dari, they know pasta and they've got a mercy or sometimes they haven't. And yet I mean error and I to category of the popular intellectual yeah, the intellectual who isn't isn't poorly educated, necessarily, although of course that's represented, especially increasingly now the generation of gone resale of the world yeah, the stanford mit ederer.

I am against the war up there, but just being I haven't, got worldly knowledge that is not limited to a province to a village or hamlet, but as soon as is, but sometimes is not because of again, not because of some fact EL story. You curiosity wanting the globe out of some sense of of privilege, but out of it last year survival of having to adapt, and it's really extraordinary that also, let me think about like professions like you ask for as afghan you know, what does he or she do for a living? And what does it done? The past I mean the answers. One gets shoe: salesman, task up, drivers, surgeons, all in one guy yeah, I mean that's, not just afghan, but as that's very common, but it's also russia is saying, is right, whenever there's complex cities to the economic system in that right.

a short term and the long term history of how the conrad develop is basically the people feel hang out their way around a mess of a country politically yeah, but a beautiful, flourishing culture and humanity, and at that creates super interesting people. Yet so we can often see it is taliban, there's war theirs, an economic malfunction. There is harboring of terrorists, there's opium trade, all that kind of stuff, but as humans there would deep. Intellectual lies and other all of the movie. Love crimes and the same kind of hopes, fears and desire to love the old romeo and juliet story- and I like rome ii to me- represents that the wit, the intelligence, but also the just eloquent and beautiful,

representation of humanity of love, some other some of the best quotes about lover from him, half of them fake Halfway, Maria the best was a real enterprise and the best answer Robert. This is an incredible college, although you found me that rank you forward very tour of afghanistan and making me making us realise that down. There's much or to this country than what we may think it's a it's, a beautiful country and it's full of beautiful people. You made me think about a lot of new things too. So it was that the great rama and two. So thank you so much thanks for listening to his conversation with robert crews to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Winston churchill. History will be kind to me for I intend,

to write it. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time the.